The Escapist - The Rise & Fall of Troika

[Dhruin]

Subtitled How Interplay's Golden Boys Struck Out on Their Own, The Escapist's The Rise and Fall of Troika (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/77/8) offers a broad overview of Troika's career with a few comments from Boyarsky and Anderson (and a relayed answer from Tim Cain). There's nothing new but it does offer another perspective:
"Great Ideas. Never Enough Testing."
Boyarsky, Cain and Anderson's creative vision first came together at Interplay. Together, the three worked on Fallout, the critically-acclaimed, post-apocalyptic RPG that has lived on in the hearts and minds of PC gamers as a sterling example of gaming done right. Cain was credited as Producer, Boyarsky as Art Director and Anderson as a Lead Artist.
More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=3296)

[Acleacius]

Good write up, I always like to hear about Troika thanks for the link. :)

I don't really like the site format since the text won't increase in size depending on what resolution your monitor is using.
When increased the fonts come out of the frame running off the page unalbe to scroll down to read them.
I guess the site format looks nice but not user friendly.

[Ionstormsucks]

The Troika article was okish... but the same issue contains an article called "Confessions of an MMOG cross dresser" which was nice in its own way. I always wanted to know what kind of men play female characters in MMOs. Now I know, and it's safe to say that I am not surprised...

[WEAPON]

The problem with Troika was that they needed to make make mass-market games, but wanted to make games that didn't have mass-market appeal. The failure of Bloodlines (or any of their games) should come as no surprise. Spector had already stuck his toe in the water with Deus Ex and found it to be luke-warm. The mass-market wants levels and motion sensing, with a bit of ecchi thrown in (motion sensing ecchi, even.) Causality is the place they go when they have an accident with the chainsaw or the BBQ. When Half-Life 2 can be lauded for "emergent" gameplay in the popular press, where does that leave Bloodlines? Virtual reality?

The greater arse-hat media will continue to write obituaries for game developers with ideas for as long as they keep aligning themselves with the three-card-monte scam that publishers are currently engaged in.

[doctor_kaz]

That was a nice article. I looked forward intensely to all of Troika's games and I was seriously disappointed when they went under. At least they never had the opportunity to piss off their fans and soil their name by making an MMO, which would have been an utter disaster.

I still think that there's a profitable business model for niche-ish games like what Troika made. I think that the decisions that their publishers made pushing them out the door too early could be classified as "penny wise and dollar stupid". Who knows how profitable both ToEE and Vampire could have been if both games had a couple months of bug squashing before release? Didn't Arcanum sell something like 250,000 copies? Not bad for a game developed by a tiny team. There must not have been much cost to recover. Also, Vampire came out the same day as Half-Life 2. That was just asking for disaster. That game should have been released in 2005 when there was no competition.

[Surlent]

That was a solid article. I didn't remember Troika was trying to get Darklands MMO deal for themselves. Wonder what kind of cool ideas they could have come up for a MMO title?

Arcanum sold nice amount of copies but it was over the years. RPGs tend to sell better over the time than most other genre types. Not sure about other Troika's two games but I have vague memory they were decent.

But yeah, I agree with you on BL release. Releasing anything on the same time with Half Life 2 was pretty bold for them. Wish Activision and Troika would have sit back for a moment, let HL2 pass by first and meanwhile polished the game.

It would be interesting to hear more where Troika workers left to work after their time in Troika. One guy is making his own space game. I think one or two ended in Obsidian. Wikipedia's Troika (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troika_Games) article lists quite lot companies. Anyway I hope we see something coming from the three founders in future.

[magerette]

Nice overview of Troika. I think he got ToEE confused with POR2 on the hard-drive wiping, tho. ToEE was a definite bugfest, but I never heard of anyone's hard-drive being wiped.

Looking back, Anderson says, "Publishers aren't interested in games from developers that consistently turn out B titles. Unfortunately, although our games had depth and vision, we were never able to release a game that had been thoroughly tested and rid of bugs. The large quantity of errors in our product automatically rendered them B titles."
I beg to disagree--I hope the members of Troika can take away a sense of having succeeded at the most important level--creating "A level" gameplay regardless of bugs that would make most people use the game cds as coasters. That at least 1 or sometimes all 3 of their games commonly turn up on the Top Ten CRPG lists floating around the internet speaks louder than the whims of idiotic publishers IMO.

[roqua]

I think the sad fact is, bad reviews due to bugs aside, the market for Troika's games wasn't huge. How many people in just this community alone would buy any Bio game over ToEE even if ToEE had zero bugs? What Michael McCarthy is doing is what all the Troika devs should be doing. If they could have found non-publisher funding and released their games through steam they would have made a good amount of money I think. I hope McCarthy makes millions and they all jump ship and go with that model. For Christ's sakes, one of the best game developers in the world is selling houses for a living.

[Corwin]

I think ToEE was a poor choice of an old PnP game to develop. It had no plot worth mentioning and after the story in Arcanum, it came as a let down. While some parts were extremely well done, after awhile the game became tedious and I didn't quite finish it. Bugs I can tolerate, tedium I can't, which is why I have issues with NWN2!! Vampire games are just too niche; I wouldn't buy one no matter how great it was, I just don't like that genre!!

[curious]

are you telling us you haven't played bloodlines!?!

[Cormac]

I love ToEE; I would love it even more if the bugs would relent just long enough to let me finish the game already. Troika had planned sequels for the game -- the other classic PnP modules -- and I think that would have been the major draw: an engine to replace the old God Box series. With that fantastic combat it would have been a dream come true.

[Dhruin]

I enjoyed ToEE but I'm with Corwin that it got tedious...I still can't believe Troika put out a game with such a lame opening (the town of Hommlet). But...the combat was simply fantastic and I would have been onboard for a whole range of modules using that engine. It was definitely the wrong module choice -- but they could have always fleshed it out themselves more fully. It's such a shame it didn't work out the way it could have.

[Corwin]

What was also annoying, was that much of the extra content was cut. Co8 restored some of it, but even that was unfinished. The opportunity for some quest variety there was sadly missed.

No, I have not and never would play Bloodlines!!

[Thaurin]

I don't really like the site format since the text won't increase in size depending on what resolution your monitor is using.
When increased the fonts come out of the frame running off the page unalbe to scroll down to read them.
I guess the site format looks nice but not user friendly.

You can get the article text in a more readable and usable format if you click on the "text" link under the article!

I always wanted to know what kind of men play female characters in MMOs. Now I know, and it's safe to say that I am not surprised...

Of course, there's not just "one" kind of man playing female characters in MMO's. In fact, the vast majority will think nothing of it and just do it because they think it's fun.

No, I have not and never would play Bloodlines!!

I thought the original Vampires: The Masquerade had a pretty good atmosphere, myself! It was one of the first 3D games I played, I think, and the lighting was awesome. As a role-playing game it should definitely be considered, whether you like vampires or not.

[txa1265]

No, I have not and never would play Bloodlines!!
Too bad - that is one of my favorite games of all time!

[Dhruin]

Yep, one of my favourite games of the last few years. You're definitely missing out, Corwin.

[magerette]

I have to agree with Corwin on Bloodlines, even though I have enjoyed all (2)of Troika's other efforts--it's about role playing for me--playing a vampire , even a "good" vampire--doesn't attract me--I just don't think I could get past the feeding part.

I recall Anne Rice having Lestat confine himself to rat's blood but I'm not going there either.;)

Also, I have some resentment about being in the middle of a slew of bugs in ToEE, and everyone at Troika just abandoning that game to finish Bloodlines--as I recall, they had one poor guy trying to do a patch(Steve Moret, I think) on his own time while they chased the dollar with another game they couldn't make properly. If not for the Circle of Eight efforts, ToEE wouild still be virtually unplayable. It just turned me off to the whole thing.

[doctor_kaz]

As long as we're talking about The Escapist, does anyone know what ever happened with Escape Radio? They had like four episodes and then it went away.

[roqua]

I have to agree with Corwin on Bloodlines, even though I have enjoyed all (2)of Troika's other efforts--it's about role playing for me--playing a vampire , even a "good" vampire--doesn't attract me--I just don't think I could get past the feeding part.

I recall Anne Rice having Lestat confine himself to rat's blood but I'm not going there either.;)

Also, I have some resentment about being in the middle of a slew of bugs in ToEE, and everyone at Troika just abandoning that game to finish Bloodlines--as I recall, they had one poor guy trying to do a patch(Steve Moret, I think) on his own time while they chased the dollar with another game they couldn't make properly. If not for the Circle of Eight efforts, ToEE wouild still be virtually unplayable. It just turned me off to the whole thing.

If I remember right Atari gave them a hard time about patches, Troika went so far as to go around Atari and sneak some info/help to Co8. I could be wrong, and my fanboyness could be clouding my memory though.

[curious]

corwin i can't believe you're that stubborn! the game offers many ways for you to keep your humanity and as a vampire you can be far more 'humane' than in many non vampire games. bloodlines is easily one of my favourite games of all time. the first vampire game was good too, but comparing them would be like comparing a space craft to a sports car.

[Corwin]

I will not play a Vampire!! Sorry, let's just say my religious beliefs would not permit it!! As for Atari being difficult over patches and Troika helping out C08, I believe you are correct roqua!!

[curious]

so your religion believes in vampires? aren't there some games like oblivion where you can get turned into a vampire? if that happened would you box up the game and return it?

ok i know this is a stretch but many people would say if they became para or quadraplegic they would rather die then continue living that way. once it happens to you though you see things much differently though. if you go along with the notion that vampires exist and that 'it happens' to you without your consent much like any other disease or crippling event then becoming one is no more evil or heretical than anything else. its what you do after that life changing event that determine your humanity/morality. a person who is confined to a wheelchair becomes humbled and many people would react to that differently. obviously in the case of vampirism you gain things in addition to losing some but you still must make choices. besides i don't see how playing a vampire is any more heritical to ones belief than playing an elf that kills other elves or drarves, etc.etc.
and if it helps put your mind at ease corwin you start the game as a human! just pretend it is called 'night life in la'

[Corwin]

Whenever I got turned into a vampire, or werewolf in any of the TES games, I reloaded an earlier save!!

[WEAPON]

Vampires, at least in the WoD, are the progeny of Cain. They've turned their backs on God and are damned forever. Isn't Corwin a reverend or something? I can see why a Vampire game would be distastefull.

[Corwin]

Spot on WEAPON!!

[Dhruin]

Also, I have some resentment about being in the middle of a slew of bugs in ToEE, and everyone at Troika just abandoning that game to finish Bloodlines--as I recall, they had one poor guy trying to do a patch(Steve Moret, I think) on his own time while they chased the dollar with another game they couldn't make properly. If not for the Circle of Eight efforts, ToEE wouild still be virtually unplayable. It just turned me off to the whole thing.

Let me preface the following comments by saying I understand your perspective from a consumers point of view and this isn't an attack on you...

...but what exactly were they supposed to do? Here's a quote from Linoleum on QT3 (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=32120) who used to work at Troika:

There was a patch done between GM and release, but if Activision hadn't authorized upping the Vampire headcount allowing the ToEE team to get rolled in, they would have all been laid off within a couple weeks of the game hitting shelves.

So, Troika has just spent nearly seven years in a constant crunch mode trying to stay on top of things and is essentially out of money -- they're just about to lay everyone off. Activision saves the day (just...for a while) but they have paid for the staff to be working on Bloodlines, so they can't work on ToEE, which is Atari's project. They're in "crunch mode" working 12-18 hour days, so there's no time to take a week off and work on ToEE...in actual practice, who and how was the patch supposed to be done? And how could they not take the Bloodlines money to keep the staff employed rather than laying them off?

Keep in mind that Troika didn't invent ToEE and go shopping for a publisher...Atari came to them and contracted them for a project. It's Atari's thing at the end of the day -- Troika didn't own the IP or even the usage rights. That doesn't mean Troika doesn't have any responsibility -- they do -- but that's between them and Atari to sort out. Atari are the ones that own the rights, contracted the job and sent it out to retail for you to buy.

[abbaon]

Bloody Prods. You take everything too seriously.

[curious]

well a closed mind is harderd to pry open than a jar with a toothpick so i guess i'll leave it alone...

[Corwin]

I don't consider I have a 'closed' mind, I simply have strong 'beliefs' in certain areas. I accept it's my own personal preferences, and I don't criticise others for enjoying things I avoid. Tell you what, if you don't try to convert me, I won't try to convert you!! :)

[curious]

you are entitled to your beliefs and i apoligize if i was infringing on them. i still am confused though as how playing as a human that gets turned into a vampire and must deal with his disease/curse/blessing affects what you believe but if you say so i'll just have to take your word. are demons off your menu list for games as well? pagans? i'm simply curious and would like to avoid insulting you in future cases based on my own views.

an interesting moment occured earlier: i noticed that in medieval total war 2, which i went back to playing yesterday after taking a break from nwn2 where i had just gotten my stronghold: that priests who gain the attribute of open-minded' are given a +1 to unorthodoxy. after a few points are gained in unorthodoxy they are likely to turn into a heretic even if they have a high pious attribute. now i'm not trying to tell you what to believe corwin or say you have a 'closed' or 'open' mind just stating the probably obvious relization that either extreme is bad. but one of the biggest 'heretics' in modern religion was martin luther and he is also one of the biggest 'heros' to many christians, obviously excluding catholics.

another note about bloodlines you could play it without feeding almost entirely and use only melee and guns being just your average 'killer' if wanted to though it might be a bit tough.

-- i realize that if i were a cat i'd be dead many times over--

[magerette]

@Dhruin & roqua
I probably am directing my resentment at the wrong party re: Bloodlines & Troika. Atari is pretty famous for their lack of interest in quality control or the actual brass tacks of what's involved in making a game properly (MOO3). Troika, as I said in my first post, did what many companies with more funding and staffing seldom seem to be able to do, and produced two of my favorite games. The fact that they dug themselves into a hole and couldn't get out is unfortunate, both for them and for us.

[UCRC.at.o2.pl]

As long as we're talking about The Escapist, does anyone know what ever happened with Escape Radio? They had like four episodes and then it went away.

No one really announced anything but Fletcher stays shut and Shawn has his GWJ Conference Call. Sadly, it seems that we won't be hearing ER anymore. But there's always possibility for a new GWJ Radio program.
btw: article you're taking about was published in Escapist at least few months ago, it's only the republish

[Lord Alex]

I loved everything about Troika: their snappy writing style, their everything-but-the-kitchen-sink approach to game design, and their (obviously) heartfelt appreciation of the cRPG genre. However, after reading the article it seems their brilliant, Metropolis-inspired logo is missing a fourth spot on the dial: Testing.

[Corwin]

Curious wrote:- "you are entitled to your beliefs and i apoligize if i was infringing on them. i still am confused though as how playing as a human that gets turned into a vampire and must deal with his disease/curse/blessing affects what you believe but if you say so i'll just have to take your word. are demons off your menu list for games as well? pagans? i'm simply curious and would like to avoid insulting you in future cases based on my own views."

Having cast out a few Demons in RL, I have no problem killing them in a game!! :) As I'm surrounded by Pagans and many are good friends, I have no problem with them either!! :biggrin:

[txa1265]

It is interesting that in some of the early 'post-mortems' for VtM:Bloodlines that there was recognition that a Vampire setting would immediately severely limit the audience for the game. Despite being a practicing Catholic and Sunday School teacher, I have no issue with this or Harry Potter or any of the others ... though my vamps tend to be 'lawful good' as much as that is possible ...

[elkston]

I was never into the whole "Vampire" thing either. I don't like playing one and I don't enjoy stories about them.

That being said, when Bloodlines came out, I was so starved for a new CRPG that I decided to try it out. I was glad I did because it was quite an enjoyable experience with gameplay that reminded me of Deus Ex in several ways.

I played a "Ventrue" clan vampire. Their very nature compels them to uphold humanity and treat humans with dignity and respect. It was the only one that "clicked" with me, since I would much rather have played someone who hunted vampires :)

[Gnidrologist]

I find it odd, that vampire mythology is found to be niche, when considering how there's lots of movies, novels and various merchandise centred around the vampire shtick. If vampires aren't mainstream enough to base a setting of computer game upon it, than what is? Only d&d modules? And even then only generic fairy tale stuff like forgotten realms. I guess Planescape was for niche players too?

[txa1265]

I find it odd, that vampire mythology is found to be niche, when considering how there's lots of movies, novels and various merchandise centred around the vampire shtick.
That was my thinking as well - I was very surprised to learn that the use of the Vampire world was a audience-limiter.
I guess Planescape was for niche players too?
Since PS:T sold ~75k copies, I'd say yes ...

[crpgnut]

Hmmm, I don't have Corwin's religious background, but add me to the group who would never play a vampire in any shape or form. It just doesn't interest me. Same with superheroes and robots. I just don't relate to those beings enough to enjoy playing the role. I almost never play an evil character for the same reasons. It doesn't "resonate" with me. I'm a "save the fantasy world" type of guy :) I did play Deus Ex and System Shock 2 but that's a rarity for me. It's part of the reason the Gothic series doesn't resonate with me. I don't "relate" to my character.

[Moriendor]

Since PS:T sold ~75k copies, I'd say yes ...

Is there a reliable source for this extremely low number? It seemed so low to me that I did a quick Google search and Answers.com (http://www.answers.com/topic/planescape-torment) and IMDB (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0187405/trivia) quote ~400K copies for Planescape. The 400K number is confirmed by a posting of Scott Warner (designer on PS:T so it's a "pretty official" source :biggrin: ) in this thread (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/archive/index.php?t-5156.html) at Qt3.
Of course, it would be interesting to know whether Answers and IMDB copied the number from that thread or from each other or whether Scott Warner is really the Scott Warner (very likely though as Qt3 is a dev playground and I think you get your background checked if you post under a dev name) but there are a whole lot of sources indicating that Planescape was actually commercially quite successful (including Feargus Urquhart BTW who -while not giving any concrete numbers- at least called Planescape a "commercial success" in this interview (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20010611/issac_02.htm) at Gamasutra (registration required)).

[Dhruin]

I think your number sounds right, Mo. I suspect that 75k figure might be the 3-month US-only sales (IDC or NPD) or thereabouts. I do, however, remember Josh Sawyer saying something like while the game did eventually cover costs and collect some modestly reasonable sales, it took far too long to be really considered a sales success and many of those sales were at budget prices. Therefore, while the 75k figure may not give an accurate picture, the idea that PS:T's sales weren't good enough to interest publishers in that type of game is still sound.

[Corwin]

Then why wasn't a sequel ever even considered? It usually ranks very high on everyone's list of the best ever RPG's!!

[Moriendor]

I think your number sounds right, Mo. I suspect that 75k figure might be the 3-month US-only sales (IDC or NPD) or thereabouts. I do, however, remember Josh Sawyer saying something like while the game did eventually cover costs and collect some modestly reasonable sales, it took far too long to be really considered a sales success and many of those sales were at budget prices. Therefore, while the 75k figure may not give an accurate picture, the idea that PS:T's sales weren't good enough to interest publishers in that type of game is still sound.

That may be true but 75K in three months seems a little unlikely given the 400K total number since there are only very rare exceptions when a game deviates from the rough "sales number prediction formula" (or whatever you want to call it). I don't remember the exact details of that formula either but wasn't it something like... sales of the 1st week = sales of the 1st month = sales of the 1st three months = ... and so on?
I somehow doubt that Planescape went through a sudden sales burst at some point during its shelf life. Why would it have? If anything, it should have sold really well at the time of release because of the November release date (holiday shopping season).
And Feargus Urquhart's statement that the game was "commercially a success" from that Gamasutra interview is from mid 2001 so "only" 1.5 years after PS:T came out so his statement is a rough indicator that it can't have taken PS:T that long to sell reasonably well.

Then why wasn't a sequel ever even considered? It usually ranks very high on everyone's list of the best ever RPG's!!

Why is there no BG III (BG franchise sold 5 million+ copies)? No Diablo III (about 8 million+ copies IIRC)? No StarCraft II? No KotOR III (4 million+)? Or still no Duke Nukem 4ever? :biggrin: The list goes on and on. I guess there are some things in life we just don't have to understand ;) .
But a small hint is given in that Gamasutra interview from 2001. Urquhart was pretty "bullish" about consoles back then already and he said that they (Black Isle) would strive to follow gamers and any current trends as much as possible.
Who knows... maybe some day someone will rediscover the Planescape universe and give it a shot.
If Drakensang makes it to the finishing line (by the end of this year hopefully) then it will have taken Realms of Arkania (DSA) 11 years to make a return to the PC. Let's give it some more time ;) .

[abbaon]

The 75K number is wrong. It had reached that by March 2000 (http://web.archive.org/web/20000816000148/http://desslock.gamespot.com/archives/200005/20000511.html), only four months into its shelf life.

Edit: And according to the article text, that covers 80% of software sales but omits those from dedicated gaming software stores, which could conceivably have accounted for the bulk of Torment's sales. Go with the 400K.

[Gorath]

... deleted ...

[abbaon]

Warner said 400K worldwide in that QT3 post Moriendor linked, but if we're just making up figures then why stop there? I see your million and bet that it's the most successful entertainment product in human history.

[Gorath]

I overlooked the "worldwide" in Warner´s post.

[Dhruin]

It's hard to debate this topic without the right data. I can't find the posts I want but here's a quote that suggest PS:T underperformed by Inteplay's standards.

An interview with Black Isle's John Deiley (http://www.gamebanshee.com/interviews/johndeiley1.php):

Planescape: Torment was a brilliant piece of work. To this day I've never encountered a story with such depth and perception in any game. I doubt that I ever will. However, I think that Torment was too radical a departure from the "norm" so to say. Our fans were used to DnD games based in typical DnD fantasy universes. As a result, initial sales were poor. However, over time the sales rivaled many of our other titles due to word of mouth. People loved the game. Unfortunately, I don't think Interplay wanted to risk development on a sequel unless they were guaranteed initial good sell through.

[Corwin]

We lament the lack of innovation in games today, yet sadly when someone risked innovating, created a classic, and turned rpg's inside out, we get the result quoted by Dhruin!! It's a sad world in some ways, but at least we did get PS-T!!

[Moriendor]

I can't find the posts I want but here's a quote that suggest PS:T underperformed by Inteplay's standards.

Hehe... Interplay must have been a spoiled little brat :biggrin: back then though due to the success of BG & co so it makes me wonder how realistic those "standards" might have been...

The 75K number is wrong. It had reached that by March 2000 (http://web.archive.org/web/20000816000148/http://desslock.gamespot.com/archives/200005/20000511.html), only four months into its shelf life.

Edit: And according to the article text, that covers 80% of software sales but omits those from dedicated gaming software stores, which could conceivably have accounted for the bulk of Torment's sales. Go with the 400K.

Thanks. That was pretty interesting what Desslock dug up there and it seems like PC Data is indeed not too accurate if we remember what Black Isle's Scott Warner said. Warner said that Planescape sold more than the Fallouts while PC Data's umm... data indicates that PS:T did better. Desslock says in that article that statistics by PC Data can be off by up to 50% according to "industry insiders" so there's good reason to trust Warner more than PC Data.
Besides, we were talking worldwide anyway and PC Data is only recording US numbers.

It's hard to debate this topic without the right data.

Yep. That sums it up nicely :) . Though I believe that after this little research effort, one could say with some certainty that PS:T was not nearly the complete commercial failure that some people make it out (or even want it) to be. Enough with the wallowing in self-pity already, folks! :biggrin:

[Alrik Fassbauer]

We lament the lack of innovation in games today, yet sadly when someone risked innovating, created a classic, and turned rpg's inside out, we get the result quoted by Dhruin!! It's a sad world in some ways, but at least we did get PS-T!!

Yes, that's indeed a problem I often see in discussions about gaming in German magazines and their forums.

It's strange how few of the really creative and innovative games might be bought by the masses (I've got no data, this is just a mere assumption), so this hints out to one point : Maybe they are too innovative ? Maybe the masses don't want too creative and innovative games ?

In a way, this could be kind of right : Some people rather stick to things they already know, instead of buying newer things. Hence the success of franchises.

Sacrifice by Shiny is one of the oddest games I've ever played. Unfortunately I never really understood how to play it effectively. Am I too dumb for it ? Is this a hint ? Towards innovation and people's reactions towards it ?


If Drakensang makes it to the finishing line (by the end of this year hopefully) then it will have taken Realms of Arkania (DSA) 11 years to make a return to the PC. Let's give it some more time ;) .

Yes, it's sad, isn't it ? At least from my point of view.


And by the way, TOEE isn't unplayable. I'm playing it right now with only the two official patches and an German translation package called GULP (it's kinmd of a mod, actually, because the German version of TOEE NEVER received ANY patches and so using the official patches everything becomes English within the game - well, at least to a part. So GULP is a re-translation, so to say).

By the way, has anyone an idea whether the DVD version of TOEE from the German gaming mag PC GAmes is better and newer (regarding patches) than the retail versions ?

[Hedek]

Exact sales data are indeed often hard to get. And things get even more complicated since we have to put that data in perspective with the costs to make those games to determine whether or not a game is a commercial failure.
There can be a huge profit difference between two games that both sold 100k copies.
My point is, ok, even if PsT Fallout and Arcanum sales didn't reach astronomic numbers, would it really be taking a too great risk for a publisher today to produce this kind of "old school, deep, enthralling RPGs with complex stories" ?
I mean how much would they cost ? Would I be wrong if I said most of us fans of such games don't care that much about the engine or fancy effects, doesn't that cut the costs by a great bit ? I don't even care for full voice-over, I love the Fallout approach where only key NPCs are voice-overed.
A main story writer, quest writers, a few designers adapting/reusing an existing engine. Imagine a new game release reusing the PsT/BG2 engine (is that Infinity2?) or the more modern ToEE engine but with a brand new story, memorable characters, all those non-cosmetic things we truly care for, wouldn't that really please us, would you be willing to pay $40 for that. I understand such a game wouldn't sell much because the main ingredient for massive sales ("breath-taking graphics") isn't there, but perhaps it can be profitable thanks to low costs making it. Any thoughts ?

[Dhruin]

It's strange how few of the really creative and innovative games might be bought by the masses (I've got no data, this is just a mere assumption), so this hints out to one point : Maybe they are too innovative ? Maybe the masses don't want too creative and innovative games ?

In a way, this could be kind of right : Some people rather stick to things they already know, instead of buying newer things. Hence the success of franchises.

You are absolutely correct (although I think we are all collectively part of this, not just the "masses").

I've read a lot of material from Chris Bateman (Kult: Heretic Kingdoms) who has done a lot of research on why players like different games, commercial viability and so on. There are a number of reasons why truly innovative games can find it difficult and your Sacrifice example is a very good one (I never really "got" Sacrifice, either). First, it's difficult to communicate these games to potential buyers in store - people tend to categorise and generalise: "I like FPSs" or "I like RPGs". A game that falls out of these clear genre classifications (or has features that fall out of the norm) is harder to judge. Research shows a lot of people have trouble adapting to new paradigms (like you and I with Sacrifice).

On the other hand, there's that shiny new FPS (RTS, sports game, whatever...) sitting on the shelf next to the innovative game. It's familiar and we know we like FPSs (or RTSs, or RPGs...) but this one one 342 different weapons -- so it's something we like only better!

Of course, innovation isn't always "fun". Classic genre types are tried and true because the gaming formula is proven (obviously).

[Dhruin]

My point is, ok, even if PsT Fallout and Arcanum sales didn't reach astronomic numbers, would it really be taking a too great risk for a publisher today to produce this kind of "old school, deep, enthralling RPGs with complex stories" ?
I mean how much would they cost ? Would I be wrong if I said most of us fans of such games don't care that much about the engine or fancy effects, doesn't that cut the costs by a great bit ? I don't even care for full voice-over, I love the Fallout approach where only key NPCs are voice-overed.
A main story writer, quest writers, a few designers adapting/reusing an existing engine. Imagine a new game release reusing the PsT/BG2 engine (is that Infinity2?) or the more modern ToEE engine but with a brand new story, memorable characters, all those non-cosmetic things we truly care for, wouldn't that really please us, would you be willing to pay $40 for that. I understand such a game wouldn't sell much because the main ingredient for massive sales ("breath-taking graphics") isn't there, but perhaps it can be profitable thanks to low costs making it. Any thoughts ?

You're asking for games in the "middle" tier, which is arguably the most difficult area to operate. I agree with what you are saying but it's harder than it looks - the loss of this area of the market is the primary reason there are few RPG releases these days.

Obviously top-tier AAA games can potentially make a lot of money, so it's clear why publishers pursue these types of games. A genuine hit can capture a lot of mind-share (WoW or Oblivion). A middle-tier game isn't promising much profit in the first place, so the risk vs gain equation doesn't really entice publishers. Retail shelves are increasingly squeezed for space, so they know there's a good chance a low profile title just won't get bought or two copies will be stuck out the back in the storeroom. Don't forget that while games like PS:T and Fallout didn't exactly get huge promotion, Interplay was a reasonable sized publisher and they were current technology games. Would PS:T sell even 400k copies if it was released now? I don't know.

What we need is self-funded indies, but that's not so easy, either. There's a reason Jeff Vogel is one of the very few full-time RPG developers. I assume you want better than Spiderweb's graphics, right? (By the way, estimates of Jeff's games are usually 5000-10,000 copies.) So, let's say we have a tiny team of 5x devs and produce a decent product in 2 years. That's at least $500,000 in development costs...would you be willing to sell your house to fund that gamble? What if we need 10x staff, which doubles the cost?

If you are relying on digital distribution, what's the market history? What is the best performing RPG sold exclusively through DD? Who knows.

Hopefully, games like Age of Decadence and The Broken Hourglass can shine a little more light on the potential of this. Otherwise, Russian and Eastern European games can exist in this marketplace because they are cheaper to produce.

[Corwin]

There is one other model which has worked. Prairie Games created Minions of Mirth with just 2 people, but by building a comunity around the game, volunteers have created a great deal of content which has been incorporated into the game.

[Hedek]

Good points Dhruin, but my hope is rather to take advantage of the structures big publishers already have. Because you're EA all your releases have to be games involving huge budgets? I was thinking that, in parallel of their expensive to produce games, big publishers could release much lower cost games, taking advantage of corporate structures they already have to market them, etc. thus lowering costs even more.

Do they not do it because they care for their image, that people/investors would expect from big companies to release only big games? But the kind of games I am hoping for are games that excel in their own kind : their writing, their story-telling, much like movies like Requiem for a Dream or Mission Impossible coexist for different merits and that's made possible because the costs involved in making them are very different. Look at the music industry, major companies don't just release well known artists, they also produce artists from less popular genres knowing they won't sell as much as Madonna, but the costs involved are also very different making both profitable.

I want to believe low profit games can be interesting for big publishers. Even if it would take 10 of them to be as profitable as 1 big successful game, but I don't see why my math wouldn't be correct if they also cost 10 times less. I mean every dollar of profit is a profit, does it really matter whether these dollars come 1 by 1 or 10 by 10 when at the end of the year you've made overall comfortable benefits.
The risk per game is also much smaller as the investment is smaller.

I don't know how much Kotor2 cost to make, but it can't have cost a lot. And by taking advantage of Lucas Arts structures -just having it displayed on lucas' homepage is already a big step towards marketing it- the "surrounding" costs (management/marketing/support/logistics/etc) can be rather low.

I like the idea of comparing cRPGs to "films d'auteur", while other game genres are similar to those impressive holywoodian movies with amazing special effects. And while major movie companies still produce "cheap" movies, in the games industry cRPGs are becoming indie-only games, I'm just having a hard time understanding that.

And as for your question about whether PsT and Fallout would sell as much today, now that's just my guess, i don't work in the industry or anything, but I know there are way more adults intersted in video games today than there used to be in the 90's and that's in part because those that used to be teens are 10 years older now but retained their video games addiction -yes i'm talking of myself :)
And I have a feeling there's a big market for "adult oriented" games such as Fallout and more generally "too complex/deep for kids" games such as Ps:T that's not being taken advantage of... so I'd say yes if correctly targetted at that market, for example by marketing the game in pc tech magazines rather than in video games magazines.

[aries100]

I think that the 400,000 copies of PS: Torment it eventually sold was over a total of 4 or 5 years. Sadly :( --- the developers/publishers can't wait that long to get a return on their investment. It is the pubishers, mostly, I think that don't want to wait this long...

In what I'd like to refer to as the golden age of the crpgs, the 1990's, game companies seemed to be more about making games for the gaming crpg audience(s). Nowadays, most of them. even those making crpgs, seem to be in it - just for the money.

I don't know how much an average game costs to make, but I do not the Danish game devs. of the Hitman series once said in an interview that their latest game Hitman:Blood Money(tm) did cost about 15 millions US Dollars to make.

While this is partly due to the fact that people playing Hitman games demands more & better graphics/visuals, this may not be true for the hardcore RPG gamer. I, for one, was one of the few, who really liked Kult: Heretic Kingdoms. But I believe I'm belonging to the minority which also did like PS: Torment quite a lot. along with the other 4-500,000 people who bought the game).

This number, 4-500,000, is probably how large the hardcore gaming audience is for crpgs, maybe it is even 2 or 3 timers that number. However, today games cost so much to develop than even if a game developer would cater to this niche audience, the publisher simply would say 'no' since the publishers like to see a very quick return on their investment. This is the first problem a game developer has, while the next problem or challenge that they would face would be to actually develop a game which would be bought
by say 80% of the maybe 1,000,000 hardcore crpgs fans out there.

The problem here is that you'd never know what the target, or even the hardcore crpg audience wants. You could try making a game like PS: Torment today or a game like the old and now classic Infinity Engine games (BG1, BG2, Icewind Dale etc.), but you wouldn't
have any assurance that nearly all hardcore crpg gamers would by the game, not even if you made a game which had great story, great gameplay and the like.

As for games with more mature themes or which are made for adults (meaning age 21+ or so), I agree that there seem to be a market for for those. However, as long as people's minds still are focused on that 'gamez are for teh kids', then I don't see the game devs. or publishers changing their style, i.e. they still want to push that T-rating in order to generate as much sales as possible.

Somehow, I find it comforting that the indie scene has taken over making crpgs. This means that we hopefully and probably can get more games of the kind I like: weird games, strange games, which focus an gameplay, story, dialoque, and the consequences actions have in the game world. I would like to see more games like Kult: Heretic Kingdoms or PS: Torment. But that's just me...

[Dhruin]

I want to believe low profit games can be interesting for big publishers. Even if it would take 10 of them to be as profitable as 1 big successful game, but I don't see why my math wouldn't be correct if they also cost 10 times less. I mean every dollar of profit is a profit, does it really matter whether these dollars come 1 by 1 or 10 by 10 when at the end of the year you've made overall comfortable benefits.
The risk per game is also much smaller as the investment is smaller.
[...]
I like the idea of comparing cRPGs to "films d'auteur", while other game genres are similar to those impressive holywoodian movies with amazing special effects. And while major movie companies still produce "cheap" movies, in the games industry cRPGs are becoming indie-only games, I'm just having a hard time understanding that.


I see what you mean - that hopefully EA would use a tiny part of their huge profit to fund some modest "hardcore" RPGs. I don't have a good answer for that. I suppose that at the end of the day, the management are going to look at the profit from those small projects and think they would be better off re-allocating the resources (even stuff like marketing and distribution) to something more profitable. The proof seems to be in the reality of the situation, doesn't it? EA could fund a small Fallout-like game without blinking (and possibly turn a small profit)...but they don't

On the films films d'auteur thing, I think that's easier to understand. A small film production can still look almost indistinguishable from a big-budget title (special effects aside). If they choose the right genre and setting, the special effects are a non-issue. So, a Full Monty (insert better example - can't think of anything at the moment) can still potentially make a lot of money. And create a lot of critical buzz...I don't know...House of Sand and Fog, for example.

A game made with a small budget is obvious. It simply takes man-hours to produce high-grade, cutting-edge graphics and the comparison with any AAA game is immediately obvious. A big chunk of the market won't touch it with a 50-foot pole because of the graphics. And it produces little mainstream buzz...maybe Desslock writes a few lines about Jeff Vogel in PC Gamer but by and large - noone cares.

But , yes. It would be nice if EA decided to do something for the artistic merit.

[Corwin]

Or we could always try to get some multi-millionaire interested in playing RPG's so he would bankroll a decent game!! :)

[abbaon]

A game made with a small budget is obvious. It simply takes man-hours to produce high-grade, cutting-edge graphics and the comparison with any AAA game is immediately obvious.
Yes, game development doesn't yet scale down as easily as film production (Requiem had fully a fiftieth the production budget of Pirates of the Caribbean 2), but that'll change. Content creation could cost orders of magnitude less than it does now. With better tools, you could build models by snapping them together from parts, morphing them with simple controls, and painting on materials. You could get animation for free. Once tool development proceeds down the path illuminated by Spore, the productivity of a small team will skyrocket. You'll see.

[aries100]

Let me made the point I made earlier even clearer.

Big corporations like EA doesn't want to settle for less profit (than the one to which they are used to getting). EA is a corporation and as such it is sole responsibily is
getting profits to its shareholders. I think this is even written/stated by laws, at least in the U.S.A.

If you then promises that EA's investment eventually will turn a profit in say 2-3 years time, then my best guess is that EA would say 'no thank you' and continue to
release FIFA and other sports games etc.

On the matter of man hours, I agree completely. I have seen modders who have
made a better story quest wise than say Bethesda did in their Oblivion game or who have created lengthier & more interesting quest than Bethsoft did, especially the modder who created the mod with the three towns. (I forgot the name of mod, sorry... :bash: )

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Chris Bateman (Kult: Heretic Kingdoms)

He also did the second Discworld adventure game (the one with Death missing) with Perfect Entertainment, I think that was the name of the company. His last work, as far as I know, with this (his ?) company was Discworld Noir, which is increadibly hard to get, nowadays, because GT Interactine went out of business shortly after the release, and Perfect Entertainment as well (no money anymore).

[Dhruin]

Yep, Perfect Entertainment. Chris is now Managing Director of International Hobo, who work as script and design consultants for hire - apparently they are often uncredited, so I mentioned Kult as his last "public" game. He has a couple of books out on game design and audience theory. They also just released a little indie puzzle-y thing called Play with Fire (http://www.manifestogames.com/).