Replaying Might and Magic VII

[Maylander]

Yes, it's time to get nostalgic again. After a lot of discussions around HoMM and similar games, I decided to replay HoMM3 (currently playing through Armageddon's Blade, after completing the original campaign).

Of course, the result was unavoidable: After playing both the original campaign and Armageddon's Blade I want to re-play the part inbetween, which happens to be MM7, one of my all-time favourite RPGs.

However, it's been ages since I last completed it. I remember most things, but I could use a little advice on party creation and so on.

Oh, that reminds me - I read someone talking about "putting casters in the back".. ? Is the 4th position supposed to be in the back, and the 1st position in the front? I've played through MM6-8 a lot of times without ever noticing any difference in terms of who gets hit (of course, dodge + armor will determine a miss, but not who gets targeted). I pretty much always put casters in position 3 and 4, but never because I thought it had anything to do with who got hit the most. Would be great if anyone could confirm this, as I won't believe it untill I see confirmation.

Anyhow, let's get back to the topic at hand: Party creation. Basic rules from what I recall:
- Must have expert disarm trap, perception and repair.
- Master or beyond of all spells (Grand Master is preferable).

Also, I seem to remember something that most FAQs and what not tend to forget: The end of the game is significantly harder than the beginning, so making a party that works well 70 out of 100 hours is a bad idea. Nothing worse than realizing the party is going to struggle the last 30 hours.

Personally, I don't really care how good a party is at killing goblins. I'll always figure out a way to get that done. Dragons, Titans, Behemoths, Droids, you get the picture.

The current party I'm leaning towards is:
- Paladin (repair, spells, decent fighting)
- Ranger (disarm, perception, decent spells/fighting)
- Cleric (merchant, Grand Master Self)
- Sorcerer (Grand Master Elemental)

Not sure if it's strong enough though. Druids are fairly good, and I lack one. Basically, I seem to recall melee being completely useless in the final third of the game (going toe-to-toe.. or well.. head-to-toe with a Titan is suicidal). Maybe my parties were always too weak?

Also, I keep hearing good things about Knights. Why? Their huge amount of hitpoints won't save the party, as there is no way for them to properly tank anything. Basically, if the Cleric dies it's game over, and they tend to die long before the Knight.

All in all, I'm looking for input here from anyone who actually remembers.. anything at all really. I completed MM8 recently, but that is significantly easier and less complex than MM7.

Any tips, advice, etc are more than welcome. :)

[Corwin]

Dte is the expert, but I ALWAYS use an all caster party because tanks suck towards the end. In 6, Druids ruled, but they nerfed them a little in 7. Still, having one druid is a must along with a cleric and mage. The main choice is always Dark or Light. The light spells are nowhere near as powerful as the dark, so you need to consider which way you plan to go early and plan ahead!!

[Maylander]

That's true. Also, Dark gets a better castle. I always preferred Celeste over the Pit though. Anyway, I'll always be able to figure that out.

It seems we agree on tanks near the end of the game. I've never been able to make that work. However, if I replace either the Ranger or Paladin with a Druid, I'll be without Repair or Disarm. I guess Ranger, Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer would work, though having to repair in towns could get rather annoying.

[dteowner]

Bunch of limp-wristed hocus pocus faeries... ;) By the time you get to titans, if you can't go toe-to-toe with them, you've done a crappy job developing your crew. So there. :p Only place melee gets a little interesting is in the Pit when you stumble on that room full of archliches. They do serious damage at a distance (throwing that dark magic blades spell), so you get chewed up pretty good before you can close to melee range. You've got to have good range attacks to make it thru.

Rumor has it the outside guys (1st and 4th) are more likely to be targetted if you're hiding around a corner. Beyond that, it's supposed to be pretty even. AFAIK, there is no "front" and "back" to the formation. I normally put my sorc in position 3 so he's not on the end. Don't know that it really makes that much difference over an entire run, though.

[Maylander]

Really? You go toe-to-toe with the biggest foes? What about Ancient Behemoths or the biggest Dragons?

If so, what is your setup and how do you prepare for such fights? Sounds to me like a lot of preperations are needed (potions, protective spells etc). Either that, or I've never had the right setup.

Usually, when I defeated such enemies in the past, I either blasted like mad with magic, or I strafed around for quite some time while shooting arrows. The worst example is the dragon for the Paladin promotion quest (it's in Tatalia or Talania or some such thing) - I was circling around the room for several minutes while shooting at the thing. Of course, this was very early on.

[Dark Savant]

Do not forget Grayface patch for MM7, currently at version 1.4
http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10078

Also there is a very good mod called MM7Rev4modR1

http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8194

[dteowner]

Weaken with ranged weapons, and by the time they reach you or you reach them, hit fast and hard. Dead critter. I generally keep all available buffs running all the time and I'm careful not to draw too many enemies at once.

I'll have to dig out some notes when I get home to refresh my memory on my buildout. I don't remember anything terribly special about it, though. I do remember that it was always the locks-n-traps aspect that limited my party build choices.

[Rithrandil]

I'm going to have to buy this game, aren't I?

[dteowner]

Yep. A true classic. The graphics won't impress, but they won't scar your eyes either. They were merely adequate 10 years ago when the game came out, but it's not about pretty pictures. This is epic spreadsheet RPG at its best.

[Maylander]

Actually had a discussion on that very topic today with a friend of mine - dating of graphics. HoMM and M&M are great examples: Where HoMM (the whole series really) has aged really well, and looks fine even today, M&M and other 3D games look.. well, they're not too impressive.

More or less every 3D game released around the same time as Baldur's Gate or HoMM3 will look rubbish today compared to BG or HoMM. Quite a triumph for 2D games.

[Rithrandil]

Am I going to need to jump through any hoops to get it to run on a modern computer, dte? Also, I don't suppose it natively runs at insane resolutions like Wizardry 8 did?

[JDR13]

Runs fine in Windows XP, don't remember the resolutions though…

[magerette]

Here's the workaround page for all the M&M's over at Celestial Heavens. Looks like for VII all you need to do is some tweaking of the sound in dxdiag:
http://www.celestialheavens.com/viewpage.php?id=383
I had no trouble running it in XP(except that Arcomage crashes, but it crashed orginally, too. Just save before you enter the Inn), but I'm pretty sure I used the above page, since I always check there. (I don't think you need to worry with the Windows compatability toolkit thingie for VII)

Definitely a classic. It's a bit jerky on a modern fast system, but it's perfectly playable. "Smooth turns" or whatever should be enabled if you don't want to get seasick.

I like an all-caster party with one tank—I usually go straight Knight and have him pick up all the miscellaneous skills like repair, etc. Knight Cleric Druid Sorc is my usual.

[azraelck]

It runs perfect in WinXP, though there was some settings I had to tweak due to the speed. Or was that MM6? Resolutions are low for a modern system, but fine for my laptop (which isn't exactly modern). Maybe Corwin can say whether it runs at all in Vista or 7. It did not run in Wine last I checked, but that's been some time.

I need to build a thing that slows time down, so I can have time to play all these games. Between new ones coming out and wanting to play old ones, I don't have time for it anymore.

[Thrasher]

Slightly off topic - sorry if I derail.

Is 7 better than 6? I have 6 sitting on my shelf (unplayed, if course), because from what I have read 4,5, and 6 are the best of the series... So I have World of Xeen, too.

But now 7?

[Rithrandil]

I'll be snagging this when I'm done with finals in may and stuff. So the resolutions are low - are we talking like unmodded Fallout 2 low, or like 1024x768 low?

Just want to know if I'm going to need to run this in windowed mode rather than risk the ugly that is old resolutions on a large widescreen monitor.:P

[magerette]

I like 6 & 7 best. I haven't played the earlier ones, and didn't care for 8 & 9. I'd say 7 has a little more to it, more bells and whistles, choices, extra levels of skills and a good/evil path choice, but I'd recommend playing 6 first just to get the feel of it all. They're both excellent games.

@Rith--I want to say 800 x600 style ugliness, but I could be (and hope I am)wrong.

[azraelck]

IMO, 7 is better than 6. But you should give 6 a try, since you have it. It's pretty good in it's own right, and also works in XP from my experience.

I don't remember the resolutions off hand, but you might want to see if it can run windowed if you have a big monitor. It's no issue for me, since I have a small laptop screen. I played through 7 last year, but I don't remember what all my settings were.

[Corwin]

7 was a tweaked up version of 6 where they made it more challenging. Both had great stories, etc, but there were a lot of small, though significant improvements in 7. Arcomage is worth the price of the game on its own. The MAJOR difference though was in 7 you have to choose between the Dark and Light path. In 6 you could use both lines.

[Thrasher]

Good stuff to know. Thankee!

Do you guys think World of Xeen is better or worse than VII?

[Corwin]

Very different. Hard to compare. I really like and enjoy both for different reasons. Gameplay is quite different though both have story and quests.

[dteowner]

6 is longer and has more to do. 7 has a much more robust and interesting character development system and the fork in the story. You can't really go wrong with either one, but I prefer 7 because, as a proper spreadsheet gamer, I put a high value on character development.

[Thrasher]

Good info, thanks!

[Dark Savant]

Here's the workaround page for all the M&M's over at Celestial Heavens. Looks like for VII all you need to do is some tweaking of the sound in dxdiag:
http://www.celestialheavens.com/viewpage.php?id=383
I had no trouble running it in XP(except that Arcomage crashes, but it crashed orginally, too. Just save before you enter the Inn), but I'm pretty sure I used the above page, since I always check there. (I don't think you need to worry with the Windows compatability toolkit thingie for VII)
Why would anyone want to go through all that? As I said above just use Grayface patch. It already includes official patch, Mok`s patch any many useful additional fixes to run the game on modern systems. There were still many bugs present after Mok`s patch and Grayface fixed most of them
GrayFace MM7 Patch v1.4
This patch includes official patches and Mok's patch.

([+] - feature, [-] - fixed bug, - other)

New in version 1.4:
[+] Now monsters are colored properly in Direct3D, no more tinting. d3dsprite.hwl isn't used anymore.
[+] Monster contours are taken into account in Direct3D when you click on them.
[+] "NoBitmapsHwl" enables textures to be taken from bitmaps.lod instead of d3dbitmap.hwl in Direct3D. This leads to better quality of textures, but too much sharpness in the distance. Default is 1 (enabled).
[+] Limit on sprites count is extended.
[+] Now Delphi memory manager is used. The limit on amount of allocated memory is removed.
[+] Door state switching command extended. Now modders can pass 3 instead of 2 to switch door state even if it's moving.
[-] Attacking big monsters in melee in Direct3D was a problem before. Players tended to shoot in them.
[-] Lich jars not appearing in The Walls of Mist bug fixed.
[-] Credits speed is now limited.
[-] Party generation screen animation speed is now limited.
[-] 'Invalid ID reached!' that was spamming the ErrorLog.txt is now ignored.
[-] Fixed a couple of index-out-of-bounds errors.

Other changes:
[+] Multiple Quick Saves. (see below for details)
[+] F2 toggles Double Speed mode. DoubleSpeedKey option controls the key.
[+] TurnSpeedNormal and TurnSpeedDouble options control speed of smooth turning. Default is 100% for normal speed and 120% for double speed.
[+] PlayMP3 option lets you play MP3 files instead of CDAudio. Default is 0 (disabled). (see below for details)
[+] MusicLoopsCount option controls loops count of music. Set it to 0 for infinite loop.
[+] InventoryKey option lets you open character's inventory screen by pressing 'I' instead of clicking a character portrait. Set it to 0 to disable.
[+] ToggleCharacterScreenKey opens or closes character screen. The default key is '~'. Set it to 0 to disable.
[+] FreeTabInInventory lets you select dead characters by Tab key while in character screen. Default is 1 (enabled).
[+] Recovery Time value is displayed in Attack and Shoot descriptions.
[+] No Death Movie option. Default is 0 (disabled).
[+] NoCD option. Default is 1 (enabled).
[+] NoIntro option disables logo movies and displays the intro when a new game starts. Default is 0 (disabled).
[+] HardenArtifacts options lets you use Harden Item on artifacts. Default is 1 (enabled).
[+] Harden Item, Recharge Item and other similar potions don't disappear when you try to use them on improper items.
[+] NoVideoDelays disables delays before and after a video is shown. Default is 1 (enabled).
[+] ReputationNumber shows numerical reputation value together with category name. Default is 1 (enabled).
[+] HorsemanSpeakTime and BoatmanSpeakTime options control time needed for horseman or boatman to say "Let's go" before new map starts loading.
[+] Extracted files from events.lod are loaded from DataFiles folder. Useful for modders. (see below for details)
[+] Loads all .dll files from ExeMods directory (this is used by MMExtension and you can use it to add your patch).
[+] Improved errors reporting. (see below)
[+] BlasterRecovery option controls minimal blasdter recovery time. Default is 5. Game default was 0.
[-] Mok's patch bug: there were glitches of smack animation in houses and even crashes sometimes.
[-] You could drink from fountains multiple times if all party members are inactive.
[-] You could attack with inactive party members.
[-] Town Portal pauses the game now.
[-] Now you can have gaps between save slots. Save and Load would target the same slot anyway.
[-] Walk Sound disappearing problem fixed.
[-] No need to set compatibility on Win XP anymore.
[-] Inactive characters could use scrolls.
[-] Items bonuses to weapon skills were ignored in recovery time calculation (Ania Selving artifact is the only such item).
[-] Protection from Magic didn't protect from Poison.
[-] 'of Feather Faling' enchantment didn't work (and Hermes' Sandals too).
[-] Dagger in second hand used to do triple damage even on Expert level.
[-] Daggers had 10% chance to do triple damage no matter what Dagger skill you have. ProgressiveDaggerTrippleDamage option makes daggers do triple damage with probability equal to skill. Default is 1 (enabled).
[-] Haste didn't work when some members are dead and weak at the same time.
[-] Buggy autosave file name localization removed.
[-] Now items that didn't fit into a chest appear in it when you free space for them and reopen the chest. (FixChests option)
[-] Return button in game menu didn't work correctly.
[-] DirectDraw errors reporting is disabled. It was leading to numerous problems on some computers.

Changes of Mok's patch:
- fixed Psychic Shock spell (damage 12 + 1-12 instead of 12 + 1).
- better 3D hardware support (Win2k/XP)
- better sound & video support (more recent Bink, Smacker and Miles Sound System libraries)
- removed buggy hard drive free space check
- fixed Hour of Power spell (Haste part wasn’t working). Thanks to Mike Kienenberger for the fix.
- fixed a saving game message in the Arena.
- fixed a bug which caused inventory corruption if you used Recharge spell on a wand with no charges. Now it will simply fail on such wands.
- the game will no longer generate wands with max number of charges = 0. It will be minimum 1 charge. Existing wands won't be upgraded.
- fixed a bug in Paralyze spell. It will not work on dead opponents anymore.
- you can toggle running mode by pressing caps lock key. This is controlled by CapsLockToggleRun option since GrayFace Patch. Default is 0 (disabled).

Changes of official patch 1.1 are listed in Readme.txt

All options are controlled by mm7.ini. It is created when the game is run the first time.
Some localization options are kept in mm7lang.ini. You can change them or translate to your language. If you create the same options in mm7.ini they will override those from mm7lang.ini.

————————————————————————————————————————
Quick Saves:
Press F11 to use quick save. You will see "Game saved!" message. "QuickSavesKey" option in mm7.ini controls the key used to save the game.
Option QuickSavesCount controls the number of quick saves.
Option QuickSavesName controls names of quick saves. Default is "Quicksave".
SpaceBeforeQuicksaveDigit controls whether there should be a space between "Quicksave" and the number of quick save.

————————————————————————————————————————
How to use MP3 Music:
Create "Music" folder in the game directory and place there files from "2.mp3" to "20.mp3" corresponding to CD tracks. Set "PlayMP3" to 1. Unlike CD music, MP3 music volume is affected by Sound Volume you set in Settings menu, so it's a good idea to keep it at maximum.

[Maylander]

I'll certainly play with a patched game, thanks!

@ 6 vs 7:
I feel that 7 is, by far, the stronger game. It has everything you could ever want from an RPG. It's in the same category as Baldur's Gate 2, being virtually complete (always room for improvement and all that, but realistically it's pretty much as good as it gets).

The extra classes, the important choices (not just light or dark, but also political choices between factions), the areas. It all feels a lot more solid.

@ My original question:
I think I'll stick with Paladin - Ranger - Cleric - Sorcerer. Plenty of magic, but still able to master the most important skills. Unfortunately I won't be able to squeeze in Grand Master Alchemy (for the permanent potions).

[dteowner]

You're going to be pretty weak on L&T, too. That's always the one that's a pain in the butt to cover. Best compromise I came up with was an evil-side monk, who can get master-level L&T but still do well in melee.

[Maylander]

Well, Earth Magic is able to handle it from Master and beyond I think? You avoid both traps and locks by opening with Telekenisis. Not sure if there's anything Telekenisis can't handle though, I honestly don't remember. There might be, in which case the Ranger just won't cut it I suppose.

Edit: Now that I think about it, Archer has access to Expert Disarm too, don't they? In that case I'll stick with Paladin - Archer - Cleric - Sorcerer, since the Archer has higher ranged output. Also, that would balance out the magic somewhat:
Self - Master (Paladin) + Grand Master (Cleric)
Elemental - Master (Archer) + Grand Master (Sorcerer)

Also, this party will be good. If I decide to make an evil party, I'll probably make something crazy like Monk - Druid - Sorcerer + random, because I really like the evil version of those classes (especially Druid -> Warlock and Sorcerer -> Lich).

[Rithrandil]

Sweet! Thank you for that link, Dark Savant. It'll help when I get this game going this summer.

[Benedict]

Did GOG do a re-release of everything? Have the originals somewhere but if there's an updated version that works with XP then I'll probably buy them again.

[Maylander]

Sadly they don't have MM7. They only have MM1-6 as far as I know.

I bought the "Millenium Edition" many years ago, which included MM7. I don't know why GOG is unable to get that version instead of the one they have. MM7 is a must as far I'm concerned if I'm replaying the MM series.

[azraelck]

Most likely, they want to eventually sell MM7 by itself. Off the last 5 games (6-9, DMofMM), MM7 is generally rated the best, followed by 6. The last 2 were meh and fail, respectively, and I won't touch anything Ubisoft sells due to their constant harassment and assault on the people who buy their games, so I will not ever buy DMofMM.

Financially, I certainly would prefer to have MM7 selling for $10, along with 6 selling for $10 (or whatever it may be) rather than both together at $15. However, you would have to pay me to play 8 again, and 9 would require more than that.

[Thrasher]

Brand new boxed MM VII is pricey. Ebay looks like my best bet.

[JDR13]

Brand new boxed MM VII is pricey. Ebay looks like my best bet.

Forget about buying M&MV II seperately, look for the M&M Platinum Edition. It includes M&M VI - IX, plus the maps for all 4 games.

[Thrasher]

I already have VI separately. I REALLY like all the original printed manuals, which I think are missing from the Platinum version. Or am I wrong?

[Corwin]

I actually didn't think 8 was too bad, though not as good as the previous 2. Using a Dragon made the game much easier, but it still could be fun. 9 is not open to discussion; it doesn't really exist!! :)

[Maylander]

I agree completely with Corwin. MM8 is a fairly good game, and while both dragons and liches are overpowered, the game itself is quite fun. I like the various factions, and I also enjoyed the "wow" effect of recruiting some of the most powerful NPCs, the ones you had to really work to get (i.e the best lich comes fully equipped with every possible spell and grand master of all magic).

MM9 is the result of costs being cut (not enough developers or development time). From what I know, Caneghem himself was not even involved (or at least not as much as he used to).

[dteowner]

I agree completely with Corwin. MM8 is a fairly good game, and while both dragons and liches are overpowered, the game itself is quite fun. I like the various factions, and I also enjoyed the "wow" effect of recruiting some of the most powerful NPCs, the ones you had to really work to get (i.e the best lich comes fully equipped with every possible spell and grand master of all magic).Recruiting your party was actually my biggest complaint against MM8. I thought it put a double-headed axe right thru the soul of the character development, which was always the high point of the M&M series.
MM9 is the result of costs being cut (not enough developers or development time). From what I know, Caneghem himself was not even involved (or at least not as much as he used to).Yep, Caneghem wasn't part of the MM9 team, and it showed. Add in that the team wanted to "modernize" the series (after all the complaints about MM8 being a poor helping of more-of-the-same), and you've got a recipe for disaster. You set out to blow up a successful formula and you don't have the guy that just might be able to navigate you thru such a treacherous journey...

[crpgnut]

I must be one of the few that actually enjoys MM9. It's got some bugs, but fans patched up the worst ones. It's not a great game, but I found it better than MM8 overall. VII and III are my faves.

[dteowner]

If MM9 had been named "Pear Quest" and gotten some official patches, it might have been an OK game. It just couldn't stand up to the expectations for a M&M game.

[magerette]

Recruiting your party was actually my biggest complaint against MM8. I thought it put a double-headed axe right thru the soul of the character development, which was always the high point of the M&M series.
My sentiments exactly. IIRC(I only spent ten minutes with the game, and ditto with 9 so I kind of get them confused) you couldn't roll but one of your party, and had to recruit the rest from inns all premade. Took the fun out of it all for me.

[JDR13]

Grrr.. all this talk about M&M is making me want to bust out my Platinum Edition and start reinstalling them.

I've never played very far into any M&M game, but I really enjoyed what I played of VI. The problem is those games are so darn big, I just don't have the time for them now.

[Maylander]

If you decide to try them out, I recommend MM7 - while it's certainly huge, it's not on par with MM6 (which is redicilously big). Also, it has a lot of improvements. The only drawback of starting with MM7 over 6 is actually not the story (HoMM3 main campaign is between them, so they have two seperate stories), but party building: Building a party in MM6 is a whole lot easier (less classes, anyone getting a skill can master it, etc).

Of course, this is why I started the topic in the first place. :)

In any case, I have now cleared all of Harmondale and Barrow Downs, including the Stone City quest. It seems a lot easier than I remember. I currently play patch 1.1 with GreyFace 1.4 installed, did any one of those patches do any balancing? It's certainly not the party strength doing it, because I'm fairly weak at this point (magic is rubbish in the beginning).

Also, if I were to try out a melee party, how would it look? I'm thinking Knight, Archer, Cleric and.. ? Thief? Monk? Paladin? Another Knight?

Oh, what about oozes? How to handle them as a melee party? Having a single Archer will do later on, due to master elemental magic, but you bump into those things already in Harmondale..

Edit: I assume Fire Aura (the enchant-weapon-with-fire-spell) is the key?

Update: It seems I've been tricked! The character chart on GameFaqs listed Disarm Expert as a basic skill for Archer/Ranger. When I finally found the trainer, he told my Archer that he needed to be "Master Archer or Sniper", which is the highest promotion! No idea how far Rangers need to progress to get it. Anyhow, Expert Disarm that late in the game is completely useless. Seems I'm going to get blown up all over the place untill I get Master Earth. Such a shame, or Archer would've been the perfect replacement for Thieves (you can get by just fine with Expert Disarm untill Master Earth if you put some skill points into it).

Anyone know when Rangers get access to it? I don't trust the chart on GameFaqs anymore.

[Maylander]

Just a small question: Is there any way to fix the "movement bug"? Basically, it's as if my characters are always moving either slightly left or right (changes when I enter/exit buildings) when I move forward or backward. Also, whenever my characters are moving slightly to the left (when I move forward/backward), I can't strafe right, and vice versa. Very annoying, as I like to use strafe a lot.

It's almost as if I'm constantly strafing in one direction, meaning I can't strafe in the other direction.

For turning, I use Smooth, as both 16x and 32x is impossibly fast (characters spin a good 360 every time I even touch my left or right keyboard arrow).

Anyone know how to fix this?

[azraelck]

While I have experienced the "wandering" party, which is the party's movement not lining up with the dungeon walls perfectly, I have never seen an instance where I couldn't strafe either direction, assuming there was open ground. I'll have to try and reproduce it later.

All this talk made me load it up and start a new party last night. I fully intend to try a Monk out on this run. But I may rebuild my party a time or two before getting serious about it.

[Maylander]

Yes, not lining up correctly is fairly common in MM6 and 7 (not sure about 8), but this is different. In the Red Dwarf Mines in Bracada it was horrible, had a hard time getting around corners because the party kept moving in strange directions. In fact, I think it started there, though I'm not sure.

I run 1.1 with GreyFace patch 1.4. Back in the days, I only played the game out-of-the-box. Not sure if either one of those patches are causing the problems.

[Dark Savant]

You should report this on CH forum and maybe Grayface can fix it
http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10078&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

Also there is no need to apply the official 1.1 patch before Greyface 1.4 as it is already included in his patch.

[magerette]

@Maylander: I'm looking at my original M&MVII manual skill chart by class, and it also gives Disarm Trap as a basic skill for all Archer types, however, none, including Ranger can get higher in it than expert. The chart of course, doesn't say anything else. Since expert is the highest level, it may actually be properly linked to the final class promotion, which I agree makes it pretty useless.

AFA the 'constant strafing' problem, I've never experienced that one.

[Zaleukos]

Grrr.. all this talk about M&M is making me want to bust out my Platinum Edition and start reinstalling them.

I've never played very far into any M&M game, but I really enjoyed what I played of VI. The problem is those games are so darn big, I just don't have the time for them now.

I have a problem finishing them too, but not so much due to size as due to the ridiculous increase in difficulty towards the end. I only managed to finish VIII. Got close to the end in III (got fed up with the game not giving me enough money to pay for levelups), and about halfway through VI (couldnt take that bloody castle atop a hilltop) and VII (a suboptimal party simply got outgunned by liches after choosing the light side).

[Maylander]

You should report this on CH forum and maybe Grayface can fix it
http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10078&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

Also there is no need to apply the official 1.1 patch before Greyface 1.4 as it is already included in his patch.

That's why I'm running 1.1, I simply patched the GreyFace patch over my vanilla installation. I'll report it and see if there's anything that can be done.

@Maylander: I'm looking at my original M&MVII manual skill chart by class, and it also gives Disarm Trap as a basic skill for all Archer types, however, none, including Ranger can get higher in it than expert. The chart of course, doesn't say anything else. Since expert is the highest level, it may actually be properly linked to the final class promotion, which I agree makes it pretty useless.

AFA the 'constant strafing' problem, I've never experienced that one.

I have Disarm, I just can't get it to Expert (which is the level above basic) untill I reach Master Archer/Sniper. Only Thieves and Ninjas can get it above Expert at all. However, GameFaqs says a plain Archer or Ranger (no upgrades) can get Expert Disarm, which is clearly wrong (at least in the case of the Archer, not sure about Ranger, which is why I asked).

Edit: Here is the chart I am referring to:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/143119/27762

It says:
Disarm Trap
Archer - E
Warrior Mage - E
Master Archer - E
Sniper E

E = Expert, obviously. Same table for Rangers.

[magerette]

That's the same chart as the manual afaict, Maylander. Looks like "expert" may only come with the promotion, then. There's always the +skills items, I guess, or picking up an NPC that boosts the skill. I remember being very disappointed in my archer and don't use the character anymore---but that was mostly because he was so underpowered as a straight up archer, even at GM. Also, no mana for his paltry magic skills either.

[dyze]

@ 6 vs 7:
I feel that 7 is, by far, the stronger game. It has everything you could ever want from an RPG. It's in the same category as Baldur's Gate 2, being virtually complete (always room for improvement and all that, but realistically it's pretty much as good as it gets).

The extra classes, the important choices (not just light or dark, but also political choices between factions), the areas. It all feels a lot more solid.



for me, 6 is the superior game. while 7 has some better options for character developments, i feel that the world is so much better designed in 6 than 7, all aspects considered.
primarily the dungeons is far superior in 6. almost every one feels well planned out, and has some nice puzzles, while in 7 they're much more straight forward a to b stuff, and the actual graphical design feels much less interesting here..

in 6, the colors are also much more vibrant, which much better matches the mood
of the game. 7 is a dull, gray and depressing place in comparison.

overall, it just feels to me that more time was spent on 6 than 7. either that or it was a better team on 6. :D

[Maylander]

Level 40-something now. So far, so good. I honestly think I must've been confusing MM6 and 7 difficulty, because I have very few problems except against Queens of the Night (they do redicilous damage).

An incredible game, I think I'll do a 2nd run soon. Also, I started a party in MM6 (Paladin, Sorcerer, Cleric, Knight). Looks like it's going to be great fun. MM6 actually has smoother controls and generally a "cleaner" feeling, as if it was a bit more polished.

I'll probably dig up MM8 as well during this nostalgia run, but I'll stay away from Dragons to get a little challenge. I'll definetly pick up Maylander though, a level 15 Cleric (where I got my nickname actually).

[JDR13]

I just received the strategy guide for M&M IX that I purchased on Ebay. I now have the guides for VI, VII, and IX. Just need to find one for XIII now...

[dteowner]

I don't remember there being one for MM8. Back in the day, I always picked up the guides for RPGs so I could go over them after my first win to see if I missed anything. I would have picked up the MM8 guide had I seen one.

Hmmm, looking on Amazon, I see that one DOES exist. MM8 was really easy, so maybe I just didn't feel the need for a guide after winning.

[JDR13]

Yep, Prima made guides for M&M VI through IX. The guide for VIII seems pretty hard to find for some reason.

Very nice guides though, well over 300 pages each, and very detailed. I like them as collector's items.

[Thrasher]

Well written game guides are worth it. Good to know that these exist for the completists in us. :)

[JDR13]

Good to know that these exist for the completists in us. :)


Or to read while we're in the bathroom… :blush:

[Lann5555]

This thread inspired me to reinstall this game and give it another shot. I never finished it when I was a kid cause it got quite difficult at the end.

Seems like once again I won't be able to finish it though, because it seems either my game is bugged or all the information about the game here is wrong. The general consensus seems to be that party formation doesn't matter as each guy is just as likely to get hit. However, in my game, the guy on the far right is getting hit 100% of the time. In fact, I stripped all my other characters of their armor and stopped putting SP into defensive skills cause they are not getting hit ever anyways. Unfortunatly, now that I reached the tougher parts of the game it seems I will be stuck once again. The guy on the right of my party is unfortunatly my cleric, so he is always the one taking all the damage and always the first one dying when things get rough. The guy next to him is my sorcerer who dies 2 seconds after the cleric, because once the cleric dies he gets all the attacks on him. In the mean time my monk and knight to the left are just chilling.

Could this be a bug? I basically just have a vanilla install with the latest Greyface patch. Guess I'll create a new game in a while and see if the same thing happens there as well

[Thrasher]

Ouch. I'd like to hear if anyone else is having this problem and if it is a general problem with the M&Ms.

[sherwinz28]

I had that problem when I would fight tough enemies without using strategy…what I like to do is weaken enemies from further away using mass damage spells like fireball and let my knight/paladin throw some arrows then let them close in when I break out the swords/staffs/knives/maces…

But my sorcerer tends to be the first to die if ever…rule #1 always have the party spells on such as bless/wizard eye…etc. Not haste though as that weakens your characters when its finished (unless I'm using it incorrectly).

I just started playing MMVI with the TCC Part 1 add on.

[JDR13]

I just started playing MMVI with the TCC Part 1 add on.


What's TCC? Some kind of fan made add on?

[azraelck]

The Chaos Conspiracy. It's a 2 part total conversion of MM6. Part 1 is based on the original MM6 map, but with new everything else, while Part 2 is a totally new game basically.

[Maylander]

Regarding haste:
Yes, it weakens the characters when it's over. However, you can re-cast haste before it ends, refreshing the duration. I personally do that whenever I'm nearing a series of tough fights, and then let it end when the fighting is over.

I just completed MM7, so I'll be playing MM6 now. I think I found the reason why it felt so easy - haste seems to have been fixed. It used to be bugged from what I know. When all the GM skills (low recovery time etc) are multiplied by GM Light casting Hour of Power, you get a redicilous speed. I was hitting and shooting like a machine gun near the end, decimating everything (including druids) within a few seconds.

It was significantly easier than a four-dragon party in MM8, and that says a lot...

[Dark Savant]

New patches from grayface with mouse look option for MM6-8
mm6 v1.10
http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9704
mm7 v1.5.1
http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10078
mm8 v1.4
http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10240

[Maylander]

Nice, I'll probably use the updated patch for my MM8 playthrough.

As for MM6.. I can see now that I was indeed confusing the difficulty of MM7 with 6 - even though I have a fairly melee heavy party (Knight, Paladin, Cleric, Sorcerer), I stand no chance at all in melee unless the opponent is a mage or similar. The packs are just too big, so I have to kite them around while shooting arrows at them.

Still, good fun!

[azraelck]

MM6 there's really little point for melees later. I'm currently running a game (I got sidetracked from MMVII) with a Cleric, 3 Sorcerers. Fire Bolt handles most everything quite well, early on.

Each Sorcerer specializes in different skills. The only common skills right now are mediation, dagger, bow, and fire magic. My Cleric, having 1 more magic skill than the sorcs, handles the disarm duties.

[Maylander]

Quick question: Is there any way at all to avoid instant-death-effects in MM6? In MM7, you can use GM Protection from Magic to avoid such effects. In MM6 the spell offers no such protection.

Just hit the pyramid, expecting quite a fight. So far, the heaviest was Castle Darkmoor, but mainly because they constantly dispel - I rely heavily on Hour of Power, Day of Protection and Day of the Gods.