Favourite shooter/RPG?

[Dhruin]

With Mass Effect 2 just behind us and Alpha Protocol a mere month or so away, I thought we'd look at the best shooter/RPGs. Feel free to add others in the comments or argue a genre definition.

On a personal note, I'm surprised this isn't a better represented genre - and why has noone tried to improve on Deus Ex?

Have at it.

[JemyM]

I have a soft spot for No One Lives Forever even if Deus Ex wins. NOLF2 does have RPG stats.

[Dhruin]

Yep, I loved NOLF (2). It will be interesting to see if many people think it should have been included.

A number of great games here, which is why I'm surprised we don't see more of them. System Shock 2 for me, with a special mention for Bloodlines, being the truest "RPG" of the group.

[migwell]

It's a good list, but the one I play through and enjoy yearly is Deus Ex.

Can't believe that Boiling Point is on there, though. I struggled through that immensely flawed game, wishing all the while that it could somehow be miraculously cleaned up to work decently, but no... The Gothic games were much better than that.

[bemushroomed]

STALKER series for sure, i dont know a single game that comes even close when it comes to atmosphere, maybe System Shock2 though, which i replay every now and then.. those are on the list of games which i've actually cared to play to the very end, which says a lot ;)

Deus Ex was good, never played it to the end though, got tired before that.

Boiling Point was fun and atmospheric but not very engaging.

[Nex]

System Shock 2, such a great game

[Bedwyr]

Bloop. This is Xerxes. Can you not feel the glory of the flesh? Do you not yearn to be free of the tyranny of the individual? Bloop.

[dagoo7]

I can entertain and understand Deus Ex as it is the closest in spirit and execution to System Shock 2 but I am so passed ME in all its forms that it just makes me sad to see that it is currently beating these games.

[Dez]

Deus Ex..no question there. I've played it through more than dozen times. Storytelling, gameworld, dialog, gameplay, music, exploration..everything works together flawlessly. The atmosphere in this game is just perfect. Its one of the most memorable gaming experiences. The new prequel shows promise though, but time will tell. At the very least it can't be worse than the horrible iw :-)

My second choise would be ofcourse Vampire Bloodlines. An other game that has no rivals in it's sub genre. We obviously need to see more vampire, cyberpunk and scifi themed rpgs. Even if developers aren't able to write orginal concepts. There are hundreds of cool licenses that would make amaizing rpgs. :-)

[JDR13]

Tough choice… STALKER, SS2, and Deus Ex are all incredible games.

I don't agree with Bloodlines being on the list, it wasn't enough of a "shooter" imo. I even have a hard time thinking of Deus Ex that way...

[Corwin]

I object that there is neither a None of the Above, nor a Other choice. I'm NOT a fan of Shooter/RPG's in general, but for me the absolute standout is the Original System Shock!!

[WorstUsernameEver]

Since I haven't played both Deus Ex and SS2 I won't vote (doesn't seem really fair, does it?) but between these I'd choose S.T.A.L.K.E.R.
Yeah, it's more like a shooter with survivalist element that coincidentally look like rpg elements but it's really atmospheric, really open, and the gameplay is really really fun. Fallout 3 is great when it's modded (improving atmosphere and most of all gameplay) but still has an incredibly shitty melodramatic story with horrible writing and some shooters element aren't integrated too well with the SPECIAL system (perception? why should I care about perception really?).

[bemushroomed]

I think STALKER feels more like a "true" RPG than most RPG's, but i do consider exploring and freedom where to go a big (the biggest?) part of the RPG experience. Personally i despise Bioware for their boring level/world design ("crates, crates and hmm lets add some more crates why dont we?") and linear layout of everything.

[bkrueger]

Vampire: Bloodlines being on the list forces me to vote for it, because for me it is clearly the best game on the list from an RPG point of view.

However it is no RPG/Shooter in my view (at least not on the same level as the others in the list). I would rather classify it as pure RPG when compared to those others.

If VtM:B would not be on the list, I would choose the System Shock/Deus Ex "Franchise".

[WorstUsernameEver]

Vampire: Bloodlines being on the list forces me to vote for it, because for me it is clearly the best game on the list from an RPG point of view.

However it is no RPG/Shooter in my view (at least not on the same level as the others in the list). I would rather classify it as pure RPG when compared to those others.

If VtM:B would not be on the list, I would choose the System Shock/Deus Ex "Franchise".

I loved VtM:B but I don't feel like it deserves a 1st spot. The gameplay is mostly bad, since it was the first (and last, sadly) attempt of Troika at creating something in 1st person with RPG mechanics and they missed the sweet spot of player skill vs. character skill by a mile.
Really, the RPG mechanics were mostly good, but the combat at the end felt mostly unrewarding and boring. (this would have been mitigated a lot if combat didn't became mandatory after Hollywood).

[Kostaz]

VtM:B is my favourite game of those but imo it's not really a shooter/RPG.

I voted for Stalker,best atmosphere in a video game since the original Gothic.

[purpleblob]

Aaah I remember NOLF. That was one fun shooter game. But can it be classified as RPG?

[JemyM]

Aaah I remember NOLF. That was one fun shooter game. But can it be classified as RPG?

Second game.

http://jemym.no-ip.com/ss/nolf2.jpg

[Malk]

I loved VtM:B but I don't feel like it deserves a 1st spot. The gameplay is mostly bad, since it was the first (and last, sadly) attempt of Troika at creating something in 1st person with RPG mechanics and they missed the sweet spot of player skill vs. character skill by a mile.

You know, talking and questing are also part of the gameplay. ;)

[dteowner]

I'm surprised that you didn't put Bioshock up as a choice. Very similar to DX in terms of RPG aspects (character development, story, atmosphere). I've only played a few of the choices, so I won't vote, but I would have picked DX with Bioshock missing.

[Acleacius]

Could making the polls different make them more accurate?

There are probably some statisticians on here who could tell us, are we really missing some vital details about how each games effect us by saying you can only pick one. Notably very worthy titles go unnoticed/scored since there maybe a single clear winner.

What if we each had 1 point for ever 2 poll choices, so in this case of 8 choices we got 4 points to spend OR ever better what if we could rate each game from 1 to 5?

[WorstUsernameEver]

You know, talking and questing are also part of the gameplay. ;)

You make a good point, but it doesn't really change my main criticism : some really questionable design decisions when they decided how to make the PnP mechanics work in a 1st person action-rpg game (in first person nonetheless so yeah I find its presence in the 'shooter/rpg' poll perfectly justified even if it's much more of an rpg than a shooter).

[tazpn]

They did try to improve on Deus Ex (ala Deus Ex: Invisible War). They failed miserably but it was tried. We shall see how Human Revolution does.

I agree NOLF/NOLF2 could be included but I'm ok with it out. Bioshock should probably be included though it wouldn't change my vote of Deus Ex.

[Dez]

Thanks JemyM for mentioning nolf series here. I really enjoyed that james bond parody humour and odd 60s culture references :) Speaking of shooters with stats. If nolf 2 drops into this category, we can't overlook Dark messiah or blade of darkness games. Both are really good medevil fantasy themed action games with rpg flavour :)

As for stalker..i haven't even played it yet. it seems that I've missed something remarkable.

[Ashbery76]

Deus Ex is legend.MassEffect2 is a close second.

[Dhruin]

Let's finally get a new poll up.
With Mass Effect 2 just behind us and Alpha Protocol a mere month or so away, I thought we'd look at the best shooter/RPGs. Feel free to add others in the comments or argue a genre definition.

On a personal note, I'm surprised this isn't a better represented genre - and why has noone tried to improve on Deus Ex?

Have at it, by clicking "vote" on the right-hand side.
More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=14810)

[CraigCWB]

I'm not an FPS fan. Haven't been since Doom, really, though I keep playing them when i get bored So, I'm biased. But in my opinion the Mass Effect games pretty much have to be the best shooter/RPG hybrids, because they are the only ones as of yet that bothered to incorporate more than superficial RPG design.

...and why has noone tried to improve on Deus Ex?

I played the first one and thought it was pretty bad. It seemed like they gimped the Unreal engine so that they could make their pseudo-RPG stuff like sneaking and stealth attacks work, which made it a poor shooter. And then they didn't bother with adding enough RPG-ishness to it to make up for what they'd removed from Unreal. Ended up being a hybrid that was simultaneously a bad FPS and a bad RPG. When people set out to make hybrids they need to decide what they want to focus on and really knock it out of the park on that side, and then add in the hybrid stuff as a freebie that adds value to an already good game. Deus Ex didn't manage that. I never played the second one. I'm not big on second chances.

[CraigCWB]

By the way: if we get to include Fallout 3 in this category, I'd give that an edge over either Mass Effect game. Just based on the fact I spent more time with it and had more fun with it. Ideally, I'd like to see a game that had Bethesda's Sandbox style (which they do really well) and Bioware's characters and storyline (which is what Bioware is really good at). I guess collaborations like that don't happen in the real world, though.

[JDR13]

…and why has noone tried to improve on Deus Ex?

I played the first one and thought it was pretty bad. It seemed like they gimped the Unreal engine so that they could make their pseudo-RPG stuff like sneaking and stealth attacks work, which made it a poor shooter. And then they didn't bother with adding enough RPG-ishness to it to make up for what they'd removed from Unreal. Ended up being a hybrid that was simultaneously a bad FPS and a bad RPG.


Well everyone's welcome to their opinion... even if it's crazy. ;)

[CraigCWB]

Well everyone's welcome to their opinion… even if it's crazy. ;)

That's what I used to say about Warren Spector, when I was feeling charitable :p

Seriously, System Shock was a great game. I don't know how he could have gone so far wrong unless he didn't actually DO anything on the original System Shock team except yak on the phone all day.

This is an RPG forum, right? Are you happy with what's been done with RPGs in the last 10 years? I'm not. And Deus Ex was part of the problem that got the genre to where it is now.

[CraigCWB]

PS JDR13,

Did you play Unreal when it first came out? Can you tell me with a straight face that Deus Ex was anywhere near as good as Unreal, evaluating it as an FPS? I'll assume you say "no". Next question: What RPG released in the same time frame would Deus Ex compare favorably to? I can't even claim it was as good as action-RPGs that tanked, like Nox. Because, it wasn't. Original System Shock came out while Doom was still the hot FPS. And, System Shock was a better FPS than Doom. By a lot. Completely different dynamic.

[JDR13]

Why would you even compare Dues Ex to games like Unreal and Doom?

[CraigCWB]

Why would you even compare Dues Ex to games like Unreal and Doom?

Why wouldn't I compare it to Unreal? It's a shooter/RPG (with emphasis on shooter) that used the Unreal engine, and was released shortly after Unreal.

What I can't understand is why people are comparing Deus Ex to games liek Vampire: The Masqurade.

Really? Seriously?

It seems to me that there are three different categories in that list:

Category I (shooters w/RPG elements)

STALKER
DEUS EX
SYSTEM SHOCK 2 (Why 2? 1 was so much better )
BORDERLANDS

Category II (RPGs w/shooter game mechanics)

FALLOUT 3
MASS EFFECT 1/2
VAMPIRE : BLOODLINES

Category 3 (games I never heard of)

BOILING POINT

I seriously have no idea why anybody in an RPG forum would choose any of the games from Category I over any of the games in Category II. But I see that a majority did.

To each his own, as you said. But are you sure you're an RPG fan?

[JDR13]

I seriously have no idea why anybody in an RPG forum would choose any of the games from Category I over any of the games in Category II. But I see that a majority did.

I don't know.. maybe because they have different tastes than you?



To each his own, as you said. But are you sure you're an RPG fan?

You're trying to convince us that Deus Ex is closer to Unreal than it is to VtMB. Are you sure you've even played any of these games?

[bkrueger]

Why wouldn't I compare it to Unreal? It's a shooter/RPG (with emphasis on shooter) that used the Unreal engine, and was released shortly after Unreal.

What I can't understand is why people are comparing Deus Ex to games liek Vampire: The Masqurade.

Really? Seriously?

It seems to me that there are three different categories in that list:

Category I (shooters w/RPG elements)

STALKER
DEUS EX
SYSTEM SHOCK 2 (Why 2? 1 was so much better )
BORDERLANDS

Category II (RPGs w/shooter game mechanics)

FALLOUT 3
MASS EFFECT 1/2
VAMPIRE : BLOODLINES

Category 3 (games I never heard of)

BOILING POINT

I seriously have no idea why anybody in an RPG forum would choose any of the games from Category I over any of the games in Category II. But I see that a majority did.

To each his own, as you said. But are you sure you're an RPG fan?

While I share your opinion about Bloodlines being more RPG-ish than all the rest (I wrote about that in the other thread on the poll)...

....your idea to list Mass Effect 2 as more RPG-ish than DeusEx makes me want to vomit.

[CraigCWB]

I object that there is neither a None of the Above, nor a Other choice. I'm NOT a fan of Shooter/RPG's in general, but for me the absolute standout is the Original System Shock!!

I'm with you on that! System Shock when it first came out was mind blowing. That was one of my favorite games of the 1990s (of all genres, and there were a LOT of good games in the 1990s).

I lasted about 3 hours in System Shock 2. Maybe 4 hours in Deus Ex, and about the same in STALKER. I consider all 3 of those to have been a waste of my money.

Mass Effect 1/2, VTM, Fallout 3... I liked all those fine and consider them all to be actual RPGs, but I'm not at all happy about Bioware's emphasis on "interactive cinema" (how can ME be considered a shooter, when it's 1 hour fighting per 10 hours of dialogues/cutscenes/running around?) or with Bethesda's Sand Box (only)philosophy. Game designers threw people like me over the side in 2000 though, so who cares? Everyone else is obviously a happy camper. I'd prefer if the term "roleplaying game" was just retired though, because it's damn insulting to people who like roleplaying games to imply a game like STALKER could qualify, by any definition.

[CraigCWB]

While I share your opinion about Bloodlines being more RPG-ish than all the rest (I wrote about that in the other thread on the poll)…

….your idea to list Mass Effect 2 as more RPG-ish than DeusEx makes me want to vomit.

Deus Ex isn't an RPG, at all. It's a pretentious shooter, and that's all it is. Even go back to what Warren Spector was saying when it was in development, and you can see how he was going on and on about "immersion". He's one of those "The media IS the message!" guys who cranks out interactive idiotware for the masses. I'm just surprised to find that demographic, here.

Are you guys happy with the current state of affairs in the RPG genre?

That's a "yes" or "no" that I'm looking for. If you answered no, then Warren Spector and Deus Ex are (part) of what you should have a grievance about. If you answered "yes"... then enjoy!

[bkrueger]

Deus Ex isn't an RPG, at all. It's a pretentious shooter, and that's all it is. Even go back to what Warren Spector was saying when it was in development, and you can see how he was going on and on about "immersion". He's one of those "The media IS the message!" guys who cranks out interactive idiotware for the masses. I'm just surprised to find that demographic, here.

Are you guys happy with the current state of affairs in the RPG genre?

That's a "yes" or "no" that I'm looking for. If you answered no, then Warren Spector and Deus Ex are (part) of what you should have a grievance about. If you answered "yes"… then enjoy!

I agree that there are reasons not be happy with the current state in the genre. But for me ME 2 is definitely a bigger part of that problem than DeusEx.

[CraigCWB]

I agree that there are reasons not be happy with the current state in the genre. But for me ME 2 is definitely a bigger part of that problem than DeusEx.

I disagree. Mainly, because Deus Ex and Warren Spector were front and center when the PC game industry made the change in direction that put us where we are today. I'm not letting Bioware off the hook, because the direction they went in deciding to follow up Baldur's Gate 2 with Neverwinter Nights (and the KOTOR) is equally to blame. I'm just not blaming Mass Effect for being the game that it is, because in today's market it could be no other. Look how many people in even THIS forum are choosing a product like STALKER over Mass Effect and Fallout 3? What message does that send developers? If today's RPG developers are the same sort of idiot they were 10 years ago, they are going to start making their games more like STALKER.

[purpleblob]

Second game.

http://jemym.no-ip.com/ss/nolf2.jpg

Oh, I see. I haven't played NOLF2 and played NOLF1 a LOOOONG time ago. I honestly can't remember rpg element in 1st game tho. It was more spy/shooter game from my memory.

[Dhruin]

I disagree about DX - for me, it was a fantastic game and I can't see any relationship between it and the decline of the genre. It was a continuation of the work and concepts developed by Looking Glass, which started a long time before. And, as I ask in the newsbit: where are all the copy-cats? If DX started the decline of the genre, why are shooter/RPGs relatively rare?

As for separating and comparing specific elements (not the best shooter, not the best RPG) ignores the possibility the combination brings something unique. A good shooter/RPG takes the excitement of a shooter and adds welcome depth.

Finally, I knew the inclusion of some games (Vampire: Bloodlines) would be controversial but - trust me - if I'd left it out, someone would complain. And someone out there thinks Bloodlines isn't a genuine RPG and wastes the PnP ruleset potential with shooter mechanics.

[DArtagnan]

DX was more a sidestep than an evolution from the Shock games.

Personally, I prefer the Shocks - but that's just that = personal preference.

DX was (and is) an utterly fantastic Stealth/Shooter/RPG and it has nothing to do with any kind of decline, from where I'm sitting.

Shock was more about immersion and tension - a variation of the Survival Horror genre, where DX was a sprawling stealth-based action game - with relatively strong adventure elements, though you could definitely shoot your way through. One key difference is the NPC interaction, of which there is none in the Shocks.

DX is more RPG to me than Shock, but it doesn't really matter.

Both are great.

As for most succesful hybrid? To me, that would be System Shock - but I consider the RPG elements to be EXTREMELY light. In that way, Shock 2 might be a more appropriate choice, and though it's not as good as the prequel, it's a fantastic game in its own right.

[JemyM]

Oh, I see. I haven't played NOLF2 and played NOLF1 a LOOOONG time ago. I honestly can't remember rpg element in 1st game tho. It was more spy/shooter game from my memory.

NOLF is a series which I along with STALKER , sims and UFO like to use to smash presumptions about what an RPG is to pieces. I wouldn't put NOLF2 in the RPG category either even if NOLF actually had dialogue choices too. Skilltrees, experiencepoints, dialogue choices... Still, it's not as free as I need a rpg to be. You still run a pretty much predetermined path like any fps. Still a fun game though, easilly as good as if not better than NOLF1.

[DArtagnan]

Where's System Shock?

= Big mistake :)

(Though RPG elements are minor)

[Maylander]

Voted ME1/2, mainly because of the setting and the interesting use of powers (very Jedi-like).

Also, I generally prefer 3rd over 1st person view, which gives ME1/2 a small edge over certain games.

[CraigCWB]

Druin,

I disagree about DX - for me, it was a fantastic game

That's fine. I'm not a fan of FPS games. I burned out on them with Unreal. Too shallow for me. They had some appeal for me back in the days when RPGs and Wargames were using mostly static graphics or at best crudely animated sprites, but there's nothing a shooter can do that I can't have in a better game genre. My opinion, of course :)

... and I can't see any relationship between it and the decline of the genre.

Maybe you weren't around the industry back then? Warren Spector was the second coming of Christ for a while there. And it was while a lot of the big PC game makers were getting bought out or failing, or both. The old ways of making RPGs got abandoned, and Deus Ex was hyped as at least one of the new ways. It had an impact.

By the way, the one game company that didn't abandon its recipe is Bethesda. I'm not a Bethesda fan and never have been, but recent RPGs have been so bad that Oblivion and Fallout 3 are actually amongst my favorite games in recent years. Which is pretty sad, since I was huge critic of every game Bethesda made from Arena to Morrowind.

It was a continuation of the work and concepts developed by Looking Glass, which started a long time before.


No, I don't think it was. I loved Ultima Underworld. I loved System Shock. I did not love Deus Ex. In fact, I couldn't even force myself to finish Deus Ex.

And, as I ask in the newsbit: where are all the copy-cats? If DX started the decline of the genre, why are shooter/RPGs relatively rare?


Because Deus Ex failed. It was over-hyped, and didn't meet expectations and surplus copies of the game were in the bargain bins in a matter of weeks. And that happened even though virtually every reviewer gave it a spectacular review... teh whole Second Coming and all that, don't you know :)

I think Warren Spector was the last of the industry's "Golden Boys" too! A lot of em crashed and burned in quick succession, for a while there. I can't really explain why so many bad games get good reviews, these days. Could be it's just a money thing, eh? But at least once in a while they give a score less than 90 for a major release.

As for separating and comparing specific elements (not the best shooter, not the best RPG) ignores the possibility the combination brings something unique. A good shooter/RPG takes the excitement of a shooter and adds welcome depth.


I agree. That has some appeal, for fans of shooters. It doesn't have much appeal for fans of RPGs, though :)

And I would still argue that it better be a good shooter at its core, and not a mediocre shooter with stats and dialog.

Finally, I knew the inclusion of some games (Vampire: Bloodlines) would be controversial but - trust me - if I'd left it out, someone would complain. And someone out there thinks Bloodlines isn't a genuine RPG and wastes the PnP ruleset potential with shooter mechanics.

Well, everyone has their own definition of "genuine RPG". What I object to is games that don't even make more than a token effort to include RPG elements being called RPGs.

By the way, I saw on Warren Spector's wiki that he was playing Ogre and GEV back in the late 1970s. I'm younger than him, but I was too! You know what those games were? A little fold out paper hex map with cardboard counters and about a 10 page mimeographed manual. You think that was the kind of game that the typical teenager or young adult was playing, back then? How did Warren Spector go from making games that interested him and that he would want to play, to making games that he thought he could sell a lot of copies of? Every game developer seems to make that mistake, and they never learn from it. It seems bizarre to me that people would try to use their creative talents in the pursuit of something that didn't even hold any interest for them, and think they'd come up with anything good that way.

[Dhruin]

I've been around for a while, so no, that has nothing to do with it. We have a very different perspective, such as the idea that DX might have been a failure. I recall DX being a critical success and, according to Wikipedia, it sold 1M copies - not too shabby at the time, primarily on one platform. I recall Spector becoming a celebrity because of the success of DX, not so much before.

Do you see the people lining up to agree with you? No? That doesn't make you wrong but perhaps it indicates that DX wasn't a bad game, but just didn't connect with you for some reason. As you point out, you already burned out on Unreal.

[JDR13]

Because Deus Ex failed. It was over-hyped, and didn't meet expectations and surplus copies of the game were in the bargain bins in a matter of weeks. And that happened even though virtually every reviewer gave it a spectacular review… teh whole Second Coming and all that, don't you know .


No, Deus Ex failed to *you*, and you seem to be the minority here. You also seem to have convinced yourself that what you're saying is actually true.

[wolfing]

I played Deus Ex a very long time ago so my memory may be failing me, but I sort of remember playing it as a shooter, much more similar to the way I play Mass Effect or even Bioshock, than the way I played Bloodlines which was much more an RPG to me.

[Cassius]

Are you guys happy with the current state of affairs in the RPG genre?

That's a "yes" or "no" that I'm looking for. If you answered no, then Warren Spector and Deus Ex are (part) of what you should have a grievance about.

My answer is "no", but I'm mystified as to why you're pinning blame on Deus Ex after a decade of Diablo clones and MMORPGs. I wish Deus Ex had more - or even any - influence on RPG development. Sadly Deus Ex's gameplay didn't even influence its own sequel.

… recent RPGs have been so bad that Oblivion [is] amongst my favorite games in recent years. Which is pretty sad …
Indeed. Sobering. Chilling actually.

[irtehyar]

You know, if Fallout 3 made the list, Oblivion should. Same gameplay, but heck - you can even pause gameplay in F3 to use VATS constantly like I did. Oblivion was more fps to me than F3. ;-)

Not that I would've voted for Oblivion, for the level scaling alone.

[Naked Ninja]

I disagree about DX - for me, it was a fantastic game and I can't see any relationship between it and the decline of the genre. It was a continuation of the work and concepts developed by Looking Glass, which started a long time before. And, as I ask in the newsbit: where are all the copy-cats? If DX started the decline of the genre, why are shooter/RPGs relatively rare?

I'm with you there, it had a massive influence on me. One of my favourite RPGs and a huge inspiration for Scars of War.

[WorstUsernameEver]

You know, if Fallout 3 made the list, Oblivion should. Same gameplay, but heck - you can even pause gameplay in F3 to use VATS constantly like I did. Oblivion was more fps to me than F3. ;-)

Not that I would've voted for Oblivion, for the level scaling alone.

Well, it misses the shooting part, unless you count 'shooting arrows' :P

[Thrasher]

Deus Ex for me, although I haven't played the original System Shock (as well as NOFL 1 and 2). More games to add to the list. :)

System Shock 2 was great but was missing the story and NPC interaction branching of DE.

[wolfing]

NOLF is a series which I along with STALKER , sims and UFO like to use to smash presumptions about what an RPG is to pieces. I wouldn't put NOLF2 in the RPG category either even if NOLF actually had dialogue choices too. Skilltrees, experiencepoints, dialogue choices… Still, it's not as free as I need a rpg to be. You still run a pretty much predetermined path like any fps. Still a fun game though, easilly as good as if not better than NOLF1.

If having 'paths' is a requirement for you to name something an RPG then I guess almost no jRPGs should be named RPGs :)

[Thrasher]

Neither should the Diablos by that measure. These are just lesser RPGs (in my view at least).

[xSamhainx]

Fallout III babayyyyy

i dont think it's gonna win tho

[irtehyar]

Well, it misses the shooting part, unless you count 'shooting arrows' :P

... and spells! I do. It's shooting at things from a first person perspective. I think that pretty much sums it up. :)

[CraigCWB]

No, Deus Ex failed to *you*, and you seem to be the minority here.

Yes, I've noticed that. And it bugs me, since this is supposed to be an RPG site.

You also seem to have convinced yourself that what you're saying is actually true.

lol. Dude, I've been around a long time. I was arguing against the stupid mistakes of the game companies BEFORE they made them. I may not be "right", but the evidence in front of your face if you look at the current state of affairs in the RPG genre or in the PC game industry in general is pretty solid evidence I'm not wrong.

As to your "million copies" of Deus Ex, I'd like to see some stats on how many of those copies sold at full price, vs $19.99 (break even point) or $9.99 (we're bleeding money here!) but nobody ever makes such data public. I recall when Myst was the "best selling game ever". After 2 years of every PC vendor giving away a copy of the game with every new computer, and magazines including a free Myst CD with their subscriptions.

[CraigCWB]

My answer is "no", but I'm mystified as to why you're pinning blame on Deus Ex after a decade of Diablo clones and MMORPGs.

I'm actually not pinning blame on Dues Ex. It didn't have much influence, as you say. I'm pinning blame on Warren Spector. He was rocketed into the lime light out of nowhere and somehow became the master designer behind System Shock and Ultima Underworld, at a time when the "old breed" of master game designers were being dragged through the mud. He's the one who coined this "immersion" BS that we still hear so much about today, and he did that BEFORE DX was released (I disagree with Dhruin about the timing of it all).

That's far from the only problem in the industry, back then, though. You're right about the negative impact MMOs had on single player games. It's really pretty awful that a lot of young (and some not so young) designers seem to think the dull and repetitive gameplay of persistent world online games is a model to be copied in single player products. The only reason that works in online games is because they are social games lol.

[JDR13]

lol. Dude, I've been around a long time. I was arguing against the stupid mistakes of the game companies BEFORE they made them. I may not be "right", but the evidence in front of your face if you look at the current state of affairs in the RPG genre or in the PC game industry in general is pretty solid evidence I'm not wrong.


Really? The evidence in front of my face says that Warren Spector is responsible for the present state of crpgs?

Well I'm glad you have it all figured out. Good luck with that…

[Zloth]

Oh wow, I had forgotten NOLF 2's RPG like elements! Though, if that counts, then Batman AA counts, too.

Comparing Mass Effect to Dues Ex is just plain hard. I played ME2 a couple of months ago. I played Dues Ex a decade ago. I can only remember bits of DE - and some of those bits might have been from Dues Ex 2.

[guenthar]

I am not a fan of Deus Ex but it is much more of an rpg then Mass Effect is and is much better. The quests and story are much better and putting experience into stats has a much bigger impact on gameplay then the leveling system in Mass Effect has. (which is very little) In Deus Ex you had choices on how you do things but in Mass Effect you have none. Also Mass Effect has the worst dialog system I have ever encountered.

PS. Diablo had the most impact on destroying the rpg genre out of anything that has ever came out. Since Diablo was so popular most companies wanted to change the rpg genre into a simplistic hack & slash. Also since the online component was so popular people got it in there mind to make an online game like Diablo so that they could charge a monthly fee. I think that if Diablo didn't exist or didn't sell so well the rpg genre would be in a much better state today. (especially if Diablo failed to sell well)

[GhanBuriGhan]

Personally I think Deus Ex still hasn't been surpassed with regards to the combination of player and character skill and the variety of choices in dealing with each situation/level. That you could generally play it with a very deliberate pacing really helped that tactical aspect.

[Cantello]

Loved (and loathed - especially while playing in the dark) System Shock 2! Have been trying to get it to run on newer computers without much success...
On the other hand, NOLF (1+2) was a superb game as well, more shooter/puzzler than RPG but a great game nonetheless.

[Davion]

Having to chose between Deus Ex 1 and System Shock 2 wasn't easy, but I picked the latter in the end.

I just prefer its creepy sci-fi setting.

[Benedict]

I've only really played Mass Effect, played bloodlines too but barely used guns at all. Except for the zombie bit and that I was rubbish at and got really annoyed by.

[DArtagnan]

Why would anyone expect "RPG" from Deus Ex?

That would mean you had no idea what it was about, and it was never intended as a true RPG - at least not from what I recall from the interviews.

It was very much a game that was supposed to carry forward the relatively new concept of "emergent gameplay" - and I remember interviews with Spector about stuff like guards hearing little things drop to the ground and react to a completely player created scenario.

That was really the core of the game, and to expect a deep-ish traditional RPG from that, is to be ignorant of the game in terms of previews.

I'm about as hardcore/enthusiastic as you can get, after 27 years of gaming being my passion - and I definitely see Deus Ex as a clear evolutionary step forward for several kinds of games.

But as an RPG? No, not really - but it was never meant to be one.

Anyway, if you really want to blame Deus Ex - then go for the sequel.

[KasperFauerby]

Deus Ex.

Lots of great games on that list, but (as other has written before me) Deus Ex is a game I replay and, more importantly, re-enjoy again and again. That game is close to perfect :)

[Maylander]

Personally I just put'em in the same boat, though the first person view of DE certainly makes it seem more "FPS" than ME does. It's all the same to me - both have RPG elements and all that, but neither one is what I'd call a cRPG.

Like I stated in the actual poll though: I do prefer ME over DE overall.

Edit: Have to agree with Craig on the general consensus around here though. I would've expected more people to simply avoid any games that were "shooter/RPG" because they're so far from the games we usually discuss (infinity engine etc).

[DeepO]

Personally I think Deus Ex still hasn't been surpassed with regards to the combination of player and character skill and the variety of choices in dealing with each situation/level. That you could generally play it with a very deliberate pacing really helped that tactical aspect.

Well said.
Those are exactly the reasons why Deus Ex is my favourite shooter RPG.
My overall favourite game of the bunch is Bloodlines (Deus Ex and System Shock 2 being close second, Mass Effect 2 third), but it´s mostly for its other rpg elements, characters and atmosphere, not because it´s a great shooter RPG.

[WorstUsernameEver]

Not completely related but Deus Ex + Deus Ex : IW are on sale on Steam for 5 bucks.
Couldn't really avoid buying them this time, could I?

[sfury]

I'm puzzled why so many people are voting for Bloodlines - it's one of my favorite games, but had crappy shooter mechanics.

For me the perfect shooter/RPGs were System Shock 2 and Stalker because both were uncompromisingly good shooters and had well weaved RPG features (that mattered).

Also of course the amazing Deus Ex, but I don't consider it as good shooter as the above two hence I didn't vote for it.

I am biased of course to the shooter-ish side - having played lots of them I just can't stand when they decide to implement half-assed shooter features in my RPGs. (I'm looking at you, Mass Effect)

[JemyM]

If having 'paths' is a requirement for you to name something an RPG then I guess almost no jRPGs should be named RPGs :)

Compare Final Fantasy VII with a game like Silver and the former can almost be called "free-roaming" in comparison. :)

There's a difference between following a path physically and following an abstract path. In Gothic 3 you follow an abstract path in that you have certain goals to chase and no matter the order you do things one can still say you follow a certain path.

What I meant with "path" in NOLF though is when you physically have to follow a path and you can never go offroad. Except for games like S.T.A.L.K.E.R and Operation Flashpoint, FPS's tend to be a linear experience with a physical wall on each side of you and an invisible red line on the ground which you need to follow to make progress, normally that leads up to the next predesigned encounter.

All of the FF games I have played have had an opportunity to go off-path and do sidequest and exploration, often with bonus quests, bonus content and magic items as a reward for doing so. Even if your character is preset from start you still often get a choice (drink) in what order to do things, if you are going to bother about something or not, or how to finish a quest.

In games like NOLF2 and Diablo you can pump experience and points, but all that does is to empower your character. You never have any real choice in where to go.

[DArtagnan]

System Shock 2 an uncompromisingly good shooter?

Let's not go that far ;)

[ortucis]

Only Bloodlines comes close to DeusEx when it comes to being the ultimate shooter/RPG. Everything else on the list is a joke. DeusEx will never be surpassed in awesomeness, definitely not by the upcoming prequel (the moronic trailer wasn't convincing, maybe for Final Fantasy fans..).

Also, System Shock 2 has to be one of the most overrated piece of low poly garbage I have ever played.. not once but twice (played once when it was released, played again after all the hype thinking maybe I missed something grand and eternal in that game.. yeah right).

[sfury]

System Shock 2 an uncompromisingly good shooter?

Let's not go that far ;)

Compared to Deus Ex it is. I played it immediately after SS2 and remeber how wooden the shooting elements felt at first, compared to SS2's faster twitchy mechanics. Of course later it finally dawned to me you could do virtually anything in DE and that's why I love it so much.

But yeah, Stalker and System Shock 2 are the only two games I've played so far blending the shooter and rpg mechanics so seemlessly.

Maybe Borderlands is like that too, bu t I haven't played it yet because it seems a bit mindless.

p.s. NOLF 1&2 were awesome, but I wouldn't call the 2nd a shooter/rpg, more like well-implemented leveling up elements. Man, I need to replay those! :)

[Arhu]

Wow, lots of different opinions in this thread. My 2 cents:

First of all, it should be clear that although all of those games could be called shooter/RPGs, they are very different from each other.

1. In terms of gameplay System Shock 2, Deus Ex and Bloodlines are still unique and unsurpassed, and my favorites in that order (Bloodlines being the best). Each felt like an iteration in the right direction to me. All of them offer distinct paths through the game, e.g. brute-force, hacking, sneaking or talking, as well as interesting and meaningful skill systems and upgrade options. None of the other listed games offered that.

2. Stalker is a free-roaming, atmospheric shooter with lots of quests and some other RPG mechanics that I don't remember too well.

3. Mass Effect 1+2 are dialog-based action adventure shooters with basic RPG elements. Due to their incredible, interactive cinematic presentation, particularly in case of ME2, some even consider them to be RPGs ...

4. Fallout 3, Borderlands and Boiling Point I didn't play, so I can't comment.

5. I think I played No One Lives Forever 2 once, but from what I remember, even though it did have a skill system like the one shown in JemyM's screenshot, it didn't come close to Deus Ex (which I would compare it to) because it was very linear. No using your environment (hacking), sneaking past an entire section of the map or talking your way out of things. I could be wrong though. Still, I'm fine with it not being listed.

6. Bioshock was a straight, if very atmospheric shooter. No RPG elements whatsoever, as far as I'm concerned. Like Doom 3 with a few more upgrades, nothing noteworthy though. A great game in its own right, but I'm happy it wasn't included in this poll. ;)


So yeah, my vote went to Bloodlines for reasons written above. Perfect gameplay options. I so wish there'd be more games like the ones mentioned in 1.

[JemyM]

Boiling Point is a shooter rpg which could have been absolutely awesome if it was finished. White Gold: War in Paradise is a still unreleased spiritual sequel that attempts to do things right.

[DArtagnan]

Compared to Deus Ex it is. I played it immediately after SS2 and remeber how wooden the shooting elements felt at first, compared to SS2's faster twitchy mechanics. Of course later it finally dawned to me you could do virtually anything in DE and that's why I love it so much.

I agree that the feel in SS2 is superior to DE.

But I don't consider either one a good shooter.

Borderlands isn't a particularly good shooter either, but it's OK.

Stalker, however, is a truly excellent shooter - but I don't consider it much of an RPG, really. Then again, I'm sort of a stat-freak.

[WorstUsernameEver]

While I haven't played System Shock 2 I'm now playing Deus Ex and I must say.. I understand what people meant when they were calling it a classic! It's REALLY good, has very tight mechanics (yeah, it's true that it doesn't feel like a shooter but I don't think it should though), non-linearity, really good world-building (the storyline isn't particularly impressive but it works) and a mindblowingly good soundtrack.
Can't really ask for more, can I? So yeah, I vote for Deus Ex.

[Arhu]

Well, have fun! :D And you can still play System Shock 2 afterward. ;)

[WorstUsernameEver]

Well, have fun! :D And you can still play System Shock 2 afterward. ;)

Of course. Not sure how it'd run on 7, but if I find it I'll definitely give it a try.
Still cursin' myself for not having played Deus Ex before!

[Guhndahb]

As this is a favorite genre of mine, I really want to pick a bunch of them. I love Bloodlines, STALKER, and ME1/2. I even liked Boiling Point. And I'd add System Shock (which was so much better than SS2 to me) and NOLF 1&2 (which is really stretching it - but feels right anyways). :p But since I have to pick one... Deus Ex it is!

[Jaz]

Out of the choices on this list it's Deus Ex for me. SS2 was decent, but not as special as the first SS.

[Konjad]

Voted Bloodlines, awesome game. Deus Ex is great one too. SS2 is 'okay', while everything else on that list is shit (first STALKER was okay, though)

[JemyM]

I haven't played Borderlands and Boiling Point and I don't know if the other's qualify as shooters, so it's STALKER for me.

[holeraw]

I have played half of the games in that list - mostly because first person perspective doesn't quite agree with me. (And I won't vote unless I even play SS2 at least since it's so respected)

I just wanted to say that I finally decided, partly because of this poll (and partly because of CraigCWB's holy crusade against it), to give Deus Ex a try… and, even though I haven't gone too far yet, I am very -very- impressed! (If only I could have the option to switch to 3rd person when not holding a gun - like in Bloodlines - I would be completely and perfectly happy with it)

[ortucis]

(If only I could have the option to switch to 3rd person when not holding a gun - like in Bloodlines - I would be completely and perfectly happy with it)

Why?

Seriously, I want to know (mostly cause I am working on similar RPG and have decided to remove third person option completely).

[holeraw]

Why?

Seriously, I want to know (mostly cause I am working on similar RPG and have decided to remove third person option completely).
Because I don't feel as comfortable with first person view. I'm not implying that there's anything wrong with it - simple personal preference.

[Dasale]

It seems weird to constantly see your back but first person view tend show nothing which is even more weird objectively.

I also prefer an over the shoulder view but for a shooter I don't see the point with constantly changing the view myself I would hate that setup. If there's hand to hand and close combat, first person view just not work at all for me. But who know, perhaps a game could implement it in a way different I haven't tried and make me enjoy it.

[ortucis]

Yes but first person view similar to games like Arma for instance. You can see your body, your shoulders.. pretty much see the damage on your characters body. How about something like this?

I mean, you can even see the new equipment you are wearing, you can see dirt or clothes getting wet. Will you still switch to third person over this?

[holeraw]

Yes but first person view similar to games like Arma for instance. You can see your body, your shoulders.. pretty much see the damage on your characters body. How about something like this?

I mean, you can even see the new equipment you are wearing, you can see dirt or clothes getting wet. Will you still switch to third person over this?

As far as I'm concerned it's certainly not about being able to see my character's equipment - it's simply about having a wider field of view where I can always have an idea of what's going on in my character's immediate surroundings - think that if there's someone standing right next to you, you would know - you would be able to 'feel' it even if you were looking at a different direction.

- When I want to shoot someone I like being able to switch to first person so I can focus on my target without being distracted,
- in close combat I like being able to switch to third person to be able to keep an eye on other potential enemies so that I can avoid being flanked as well as being able to have an idea of my surroundings so I can know how to maneuverer while nor losing sight of my target,
- while exploring and especially while sneaking I prefer third person so I can have the widest possible field of view and therefore the ability to quickly locate potential threats or points of interest.

[ortucis]

Wider FOV in FPS view can help a bit but I can see how it's still limiting (like you said, you still can't "feel" enemies) unless resorting to some artificial gimicks.

So I guess leaving FPS and third person option for the players will do then.

[cutterjohn]

I voted for S.T.A.L.K.E.R., but my alltime favorite is Teamfortress Classic

[Davion]

Why would you consider Team Fortress Classic a shooter/RPG?

[Glorian]

I am voting for Boiling Point simply because it seems that no body has played Xenus II : White Gold. Which is practicaly "Boiling Point II" :-)

I finished this game couple of days ago and to me this is one of the best Free-roaming RPG shooters ever made.
- Huge world
- Hundreds of quests
- Many factions to chose between
- Nice story
- Nice girls ;-)
- All kind of vehicles and all of them can be used
- lovely graphics (despite the fact that the game was released 2 years ago).
- Great game-play freedom

In short - all the games mentioned are great and I love them all. Xenus II however is a hidden gem. Very big. Realy nice.

[Gorath]

Boiling Point 2? Wasn't the first one a complete train wreck?

[GothicGothicness]

I did a checkup of boiling point 2, and it is very hard to find any info at all in english about it. But everywhere people write something about it, it is extremly postive…. so I really want to try it now.

Is it possible to buy an english version? where did you get it Glorian ?

[bloodlover]

Since when is Stalker an RPG ? O.o

[Davion]

Boiling Point 2 = Xenus 2, for those intrested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Gold:_War_in_Paradise

[JemyM]

Since when is Stalker an RPG ? O.o

Depends on what an RPG is to you.

S.T.A.L.K.E.R have quests, loot, moral choices, stats upgraded through artifacts and equipment. Call of Pripyat have a quest structure that reminds me about Fallout 2.

[Thrasher]

Moral choices is a kind of roleplaying. - buy it's pretty thin on anything else I'd consider roleplaying.

[idiocracy]

Moral choices is a kind of roleplaying. - buy it's pretty thin on anything else I'd consider roleplaying.

Just like Mass Effect.

My favorite is Dark Messiah even though, it's not technically a shooter.

[borcanu]

Since Bloodlines got so many votes, maybe some important guy from marketing mught take action
a madman's hope
rip troika

[apoc_reg]

Bloodlines shouldnt even be on the list. Its not a shooter!

STALKER for me, despite some great games on the list I just love the STALKER atmosphere.

[Irian]

Personally, I voted for Bloodlines. Depending on what character you play it can be pretty shooter-ish, a Brujah with high levels of Celerity, for example.

Anyway, the original Bloodlines wasn't that good - it simply wasn't finished when it was released. But there's at least one fan patch out there that changes that and finally makes Bloodlines the really great game it deserves to be.

[Zaleukos]

Played ME 1/2 now. I still hold Fallout 3 as more entertaining than those two.

[jennifer]

I like to vote Bloodliness and Bloodlines the really great game it deserves to be.

[Skybird]

I voted FO3 but didn't play all on the list.
FO3 is my fav because of Mod community, it keeps the game alive. Played it probably hundreds of hours, installed Vegas now. I played Stalker and ME2 but those 2 games have no replay value for me.

[Cthulhufan]

I voted System Shock 2 as it was an absolutely phenomenal shooter with RPG elements. Deus Ex was a close second IMO.

The poll was about "Shooter/RPG" so I don't give two hoots if someone's feathers are ruffled because some game on this list isn't an RPG at it's core…

Undying and Realms of the Haunting deserve to be on this list damnit!

I started playing S.T.A.L.K.E.R. tonight, however, and *wow* this is an incredibly fun shooter with RPG elements as well. It is absolutely fantastic and I'm glad I picked it up.

[movwills]

Mine favorite Shooter / RPG games are :

Fallout 3
Mass Effect 2

[Laverre]

Nearly impossible to decide...
Vampire Bloodlines for it's atmospheric world and the sheer joy of playing a malkavian.
System Shock for being one of the view games that was at it's release unnerving, atmospheric and created levels that made sense, not to mention one of the best villains I've seen so far in any computer game.
Deus Ex because it was constantly interesting and I always wanted to know what happens next in the storyline.. loved the different endings.
Last but not least Mass Effect .. well just because it's fun and I really liked some of the companions storys.

[Tanno]

Vampires: Bloodline. This game spells "Satanism" and "Heavy Metal". \m/