Lee

[hwfanatic]

Is there a way to talk Lee out of killing Rhobar? So far I only have the option to give him the teleportation rune. How is it possible this great character got so simplified?

[Acleacius]

I not sure alot if the characters lost depth are you just trying to clear the quest or get Lee to follow you around?

I am getting close to that point but still have some exploring to do, just found out that Frithjof there in the Fire Clan is spose to be the 12th Paladin but bugged, maybe Lee is bugged as well.
Have you tried playing through it yet?

[hwfanatic]

I'm trying to role-play. I don't want Lee killing Rhobar, at least not right away. I want to know what happened back then, and I want to know the reason the greatest general in whole kingdom got thrown in the slammer. Maybe there even was some kind of conspiracy, and I want to find it out. But I'm probably asking too much.

I gave him the teleporter stone to test what would happen and he just attacks Rhobar. Of course he is no way near strong enough to defeat him, and he ain't interested in working things out with words.

[txa1265]

That is pretty much it ... I believe that you can find out more later, but basically as Lee has been telling you for years he has a major score to settle. You give him the means, and he's off to do it.

[curious]

yes hwfanatic i too wished for different options and or fleshed out details with lee and the king. but unfortunately its one of those developer time issues most likely and at least they didn't a 'halfway job' but made it simple. mike sums its it up perfectly that exiled to khorinis for those years, and being betrayed, has left only one thing on lee's mind. if there was ever a prequel made to gothic i'm sure we could see a great story about lee. i can just imagine the 'promise' he makes to rhobar as he is dragged from the court in myrtana to his fate in khorinis.

[Acleacius]

Ahh, ok.
hwfanatic have you played G1, Lee does explain quite a bit about the being setup.
Iirc (memory failing, atm) he was accused of either killing the Queen or having an affair with her by the Martana elite, because he was too stong of an influence on Robar and prevented them from using the King for their political purposes.
The King allowed Lee to be setup in the since he believed the political elite and didn't do an investigation..

So Robar destroyed one of his mostly loyal subjects and his greatest commander also remember Robar is spose to be Innos's leader representive and Innos is spose to represent Truth and Justice, so what Lee intends in this violent Medievle world is quite justified.

You can keep him alive by healing him and not get attacked, afaik.

[hwfanatic]

I remember my Gothic quite well. Somebody set Lee up, and if there is anyone that needs to be killed, then it's this shady person. Lee is not supposed to be dumb, he was the leader of the mercenaries for goodness sake. His disappointment and anger about Rhobar not taking his side in the trial is imho not a very good reason to kill the guy. Especially now the kingdom is at stake, with the orcs at the capital door. The conspirators were probably lobbying with the king trying to convince him to "let Lee go" putting things out of perspective for the already shaken man. Once again, I fail to see why Rhobar is the one to die while the real perpetrators are still roaming free.

[Acleacius]

Ok well I guess we just have different takes on this, since my understanding/belief is that this politcal elites were the ones pushing Robar into the war with the Orcs, which Lee was against, which has caused untold kaos and destruction to his country.
Robar is leading, responsible and there could have been no war, without Robar.

I should play G1 again to refresh my memory. :)

[Maylander]

Lee was convicted by the King for killing the Kings wife, and his service to the nation saved him from being executed. He was framed by some nobles, however, and the King had no actual choice in the matter. I agree that Lee really shouldn't kill the King, but I believe all those years imprisoned has made his anger grow a lot.

[VPeric]

Question: Where is that political elite/where are the nobles? All I've seen are Guards, the occasional Paladin and a few peasants... where'd the nobles go?

;)

[txa1265]

Question: Where is that political elite/where are the nobles? All I've seen are Guards, the occasional Paladin and a few peasants... where'd the nobles go?

Where do they always go - to their country villas far away from the action ... ;)

[Acleacius]

Maylander
" King had no actual choice in the matter"
I could have sworn there was something about the King "Just Believing them against Lee" some sort of denied justice where Robar didn't bother investigating which is where the anger/revenge stems from since Robar wouldn't even give him a fair trial.

VPeric
Actually this could be more reviled in G4, but yes there were only fighters and mages left, of course the political elite never fight the wars they insight. ;)

Hey maybe we will get to smash there faces in their posh villas, in the countryside, besides we have been working hard kicking butt for three games now, we could use a break at a nice villa. ;)

[VPeric]

No, what I mean is... there aren't any villas. There isn't any nobility. I mean, what we have in G3 is the entire kingdom Rhobar has/had, right? And I failed to see many of those.

[curious]

i think the general time constraint of developing and lack of importance/difficulty of implementation answer applies here. or its possible they are all dead, or maybe some left to the southern isles (or who knows what other small islands are out there), where maybe the women and children are as well--eating bannanas and playing on the beach;)

but i'm with Acleacius on this one. the king surely is to blame for not trusting or investigating and not making lee the 'fall guy'. maybe his 'anger' over the possiblity of his wifes death clouded his judgement, but the wheel of karma has spun back towards him where lee's 'anger' which he's had years to live with is aimed at one helping of sweet revenge. maybe if the rhobar was 'winning' the war then he might be more inclined to let him live, but after any society has taken such a 'beating' under any ruler's watch its time for a change. lee just happens to be the simplest solution to that problem.

maybe an aide to the king found out that lee and the queen were having an affair so they plotted to have them both dealt with. or maybe the 'aide' found out about the affair and took matters into his own hands. there are numerous amounts of posibilities that could have occured--just pick your favourite shakespearen one. but while rhobar could have partialy been a victim in it all, given his 'lifetime achievements' and the fact that lee was the best general who he exiled during the time of a loosing war, along with countless other people (guilty of even the smallest crimes all so he could get ore which he apparently 'knew' he wasn't even going to get) who could have raised a sword against the orcs. no the more and more i think about it rhobar was more a tyrant, dictator with far too much to answer for.

[Acleacius]

VPeric, yeah we're just being retorically funny about the villas. ;)
I.e. they got the hell out of town. :)

Actually it seems like Lee gets the best treatment of all the buddies, after he defeats the King, things like Heroic, leading the armies to greatness during his tale.

Did Lee have a wife and kid too (geezz I have got to play the series again)?

Oh btw does anyone know if you can get Angar to live, for some odd reason he goes Red with Mora Sol a place he has been a less than a month and attacks me when I am freeing it.

Also why the hell do they say Lester goes to Braga, there's no coast there isn't it obvious he goes to Lago?

And Degio why doesn't he stay in Mora Sol when you bring him there?

[Krzychu]

I too, am disappointed with Lee.

"Lee, I am disappointed with you. *Walks away*

My understanding:
I clearly remember Lee's story. Assuming he was telling the truth (Why, of course he was!), he was set up and accused of killing the king's wife. I assume that Lee must have been framed very convincingly, and Rhobar really bought the story. But since Lee was his greatest general - someone very loyal, and possibly a friend, - Rhobar didn't want to execute him. Instead, he sent him to Khorinis, so as to never see him again.

Now, what I thought was that Lee planned to restore his honor, clear his name, and get revenge on the people that had framed him. Not such a petty plan to murder the king... c'mon Lee, you're better than that. But the problem, and Lee's tragedy, is that many years have passed. The situation in Myrtana has changed. Many have probably forgotten about the story.The nobles that had set him up, may be gone, or even dead, and the revenge that he dreamed of just may be beyond his reach. So Lee, blinded by anger and frustrated by not being able to get a proper revenge, decides to murder Rhobar...? Perhaps, but I'm not convinced. This is *not* the Lee I remember from Khornis. I feel sorry for the man, but I refuse to help him.

[curious]

but this is gothic not lord of the rings. it's all to similar to the situation with the king of rohan and his aide 'wormtongue'. but since rhobar is fooled by his weak mind and honour rather than any 'magic spell' there is no nothing to cure him of, other than removing him from his bad decision making throne. and since this is 'gothic' then killing him is a completely noble solution. granted it would be nice if they had a duel/arena style fight or better. besides usually a great warrior would rather be killed then sent to rot in shame on a backwater island. and like i said before i agree that there should be a third option or maybe more but the one they implemented is the most 'efficient' and still makes the most sense. even from the first game it was clear that pirahna bytes 'portrayed' rhobar as not a well liked leader so it would seem odd if a majority of people thought he still had a right to rule. but the openess of him not being a great/noble leader (ala lord british) while not being a monsterous one either leads us all to come to these different conclusions and what makes the gothic series so great.

but being as there is only going to be one story line that follows if the addon/expansion does take place after the events in gothic 3, then most likely the king is dead, as the only option that furthers the nameless heros adventures involves rhobar dead, and why rob lee of the satisfaction he desires by killing the king yourself.

[Acleacius]

The biggest deal breaker for me was of course Robar was the one whom started the Penal colony to imprison his subjects for the smallest of crimes, so he could force them to dig Ore for his war.

It seems as if some are tending to glamorize Robar, even though his crimes against his own people seem clear.

[hwfanatic]

but since rhobar is fooled by his weak mind and honour rather than any 'magic spell' there is no nothing to cure him of, other than removing him from his bad decision making throne.
Are we talking about the same Rhobar? The one that created a kingdom from scratch in God's name?

[curious]

some people age better than others. a great man can through lifes stresses and emotions, decisons can succomb to nothing more than a selfish and foolish child, who unfortunately doesn't have naivety to blame.

[curious]

and remember innos is just one god in the game world not 'god'.

[hiciacit]

I always thought this was what happened (but perhaps this is something I assumed based on some vague hints in Lee's story; it's been a while):

Lee had an affaire with the Queen. The King found out and had his wife murdered, and had Lee take the rep for it (let him live because of his service to the kingdom).

[Krzychu]

I'm pretty sure I've never heard anything about an affair.

You're making me want to install Gothic and play it through again to check that once and for all. :p

[Wulf]

There was no affair, here are the words spoken by Lee when standing on the dam in G1, it is self explanatory.

There was a time when i led a very different life. I was one of the best generals of this country. I spent my whole life fighting for my country but the nobles didn't like me because the king listened to my advice and they knew i posed a threat to their dirty buisness. I hadn't counted on their insidiousness, they used the kings wife to get me, i was blamed for her pointless murder.
King Rhobar had no other choice. The services i had rendered my country saved me from the gallows but they robbed me of my freedom. One day i'll be free again then i shall return and take my revenge - i shall have my revenge!

[txa1265]

I spent my whole life fighting for my country but the nobles didn't like me because the king listened to my advice and they knew i posed a threat to their dirty buisness.
That makes it sound like he should be looking for revenge upon the nobles more than the king.

[curious]

there can be a lot that can be taken from that though Wulf. by "using the kings wife" could mean that they knew he either liked the queen or they were having an affair. without those it would be much harder to 'frame' him in a situation for her death. and remember he was a loyal general so when he says that 'king rhobar had no choice' he says that as a loyal servant of the king but his true feelings are obviously much different and tack on a few more years 'til the chance he gets in gothic 3 and his mind is made up. remember the people of khorinis didn't know how bad it is in myrtana, maybe upon seeing crucified paladins and the population enslaved while rhobar is hoarded up in his castle pushed lee over the breaking point.

[Wulf]

As i read it - the nobles had Rhobars wife murdered and made it look like Lee was to blame because he was advising Rhobar.

Re: txa1265's quote [That makes it sound like he should be looking for revenge upon the nobles more than the king.]

...absolutely, why should Lee in G3 want to kill the man who had previously saved his life? - if he could find the "nobles" who could they be?

[curious]

saved his life? by condemning him to dig ore or get killed by actual convicts? can't he do what he wants? he is the king if he takes 'bad' advice he is still responsible. whatever the dialogue actually was in the game it doesn't literaly explain it all. it was just a dialogue tree and after all there are many details which have been left out. but the dialogue they choose implies that lee had ties to the wife somehow. otherwise they would have simply stated i was framed for killing (rather than "to get to me") the kings wife by the nobles. its still possible there was not an affair. but the king is still ultimately responsible for his kingdom and if he is not wise enough to realize that the nobles (which as stated is implying practically all 'upper society' not just one or two otherwise he could have stated 'a few' or some other specific number) who represent the 'elite' are so corrupt yet he puts faith in them while not seeing the truth of the honourable like lee then he makes a bad leader. how is a king not responsible for letting his kingdom fall apart and the people at 'the top' the only ones not in dire situations? i could make all kinds of comparisons to rhobar and actual leaders but it's not necessary. though its possible at one time he may have been a good man/leader he is not now. i guess being the 2nd rhobar makes him cursed;)

[Wulf]

Yeah saved his life - re: "saved me from the gallows" yet robbed of his freedom.

There are more questions than answers. In G1 Lee was inside the barrier hoping to get out, while in G3 Lee now has his freedom outside of the barrier trying to get in!

:-/

[Acleacius]

Thanks for that info, Wulf. :)

It's very close to my memory, though I recall more dialogue about his family and the investigation or lack there of, not necessarly on the bridge, maybe I am confusing it wiith something in G2. :S

[curious]

well if anyone ever 'saved my life' in that manner they'd get at least get a sock in the face--and i've never thrown punch.

[hiciacit]

Do you happen to know what Lee explains about himself in GothicII? I still think the whole affaire thing is not entirely unlikely because of this:

I hadn't counted on their insidiousness, they used the kings wife to get me, i was blamed for her pointless murder.

The nobles found out and told the king/made the affaire public, so the king had no choice but to act (perhaps out of spite, perhaps to safe face). Although I might have made up my own story back then around the info given in GothicI&II...

[Zaleukos]

Am I the only one who doesnt get Lee and the King to fight to the death? I tested the quest because I wanted to see how strong these guys are in combat, and they got stuck in a loop with the king knocking out Lee, Lee getting up, etc, ad nauseum...

[Acleacius]

I actually helped Lee kill the King, yes the King is much stronger than Lee but if your Healing Lee he actually kills the King.

[Zaleukos]

Interesting, I might try that:) It's a bit annoying to fight through all the Paladins and fire mages... And Lee be damned;)

[Acleacius]

If you teleport out as soon as Lee kills the King and then teleport back they stop fighting and Lee stays at the Castle, I really didn't want him to have to fight all the men, since he was their leader.

Lee goes on and lead the armies of the King back to greatness through his heroism and great leadership, according to the ending on Lee. :)

Actually I worred about the others but if you walk all the way to the wall near the King as to get Lee as close as possible, when they start fighting its treated as duel, so you can jsut heal. :)

[Krzychu]

There was a time when i led a very different life. I was one of the best generals of this country. I spent my whole life fighting for my country but the nobles didn't like me because the king listened to my advice and they knew i posed a threat to their dirty buisness. I hadn't counted on their insidiousness, they used the kings wife to get me, i was blamed for her pointless murder.
King Rhobar had no other choice. The services i had rendered my country saved me from the gallows but they robbed me of my freedom. One day i'll be free again then i shall return and take my revenge - i shall have my revenge!

Thanks, Wulf. Well, that pretty much clears up everything for me. Too bad about Lee, though, he could have achieved great things...

[Acleacius]

"the king knocking out Lee, Lee getting up, etc, ad nauseum.."
Thats how I found out about teleporting out and coming back.
By the time Lee killed the King he had been bounced around so much he was on top of the fire place next to the throne.

I considered letting them fight but he couldn't do anything up there since everyone was out of range though the casters were able to hit him, so I thought we would just forget it and leave but he didn't show up at the Fire Clan.
I returned to the Throne room and they were all having a beer, while I get a warning from a guard someone has been killing there men as we stood over the King's body. :p

[Krzychu]

I returned to the Throne room and they were all having a beer, while I get a warning from a guard someone has been killing there men as we stood over the King's body. :p

That's hilarious! :lol:

[Zaleukos]

In my case it was treated as some sort of arena duel. Everyone was watching the fight, but noone reacted upon the death of the king afterwards. Very weird.

[Maylander]

That's what is supposed to happen - no soldier wants to attack their former general Lee. Keep in mind that Rhobar the 2nd is the Chosen of Innos - he is, by far, more powerful than Lee. Only by healing Lee many times during the fight will he win.