RPGWatch Feature - Morrowind Revisited

[Dhruin]

Part retrospective, part love-letter to the mod community, VoxClamant writes about his recent experiences revisiting Morrowind. Here's a snip:
This piece started out to be a retrospective on Morrowind. But somewhere between the sketch of the ideas and the completed work, it morphed into something a bit different. Yes, it is still mostly about Morrowind. But it also focuses on how mods, in general, have added so much to many of the best games any of us have ever played. Indeed, during the writing a profound conclusion solidified for me -- many of the best games became "best" because of their support for mods.
Read it all here (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/article?articleid=158&ref=0&id=182).
More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=15545)

[EvilKoala]

I love you Morrowind. *hug*

[JuliusMagnus]

Nice article.

It is really a matter of taste which mods one installs.

A few months ago I used this guide (http://morrowind2009.wordpress.com/) to install some mods.

I mostly installed bug fixes, new models, grass mods.

I also installed some mods I didn't like, such as one that adds thousands of new NPC's and one that added schedules to the NPCs. The mod that adds alot of NPC's I was unable to remove because Morrowind stops working when I remove it. But if I would install again I would not include that one.

I personally would change nothing from the gameplay. For example I'd never use all ports traveling mods, simply because remembering all routes and choosing the quickest route has become a game unto intself for me.

Whenever I was traveling with family, before the advent of navigators, I used to be in charge of the map and directing the driver. Also when we visted New York I was in charge of determing which subway line to use. Being able to navigate through a locale using Signs or using "Public Transport" makes me feel like I'm actually there spatially.

At a time I was so adept at Morrowind travel that I also used AlmSiVi or Divine Intervention scrolls as public transportation. Especially if I was in a remote place, it was the quickest way to get back to society.

Sadly, this type of fasttravel was removed in Oblivion, and it's use in Fallout 3 has probably cemented it in BGS games.

Modding it out of Oblivion is not so easy, since it's not about simply disabeling Oblivion fast travel, but about also providing alternative travel options such as coaches, boats or Mages Guild guide transfer.

[bemushroomed]

He forgot the most important mod (for graphics anyways), Morrowind Graphics Extender (http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/1109820-morrowind-graphics-extender-mge/) which brings the graphics up to Oblivion's level and, in some ways, even beyond that.

He links to TESNexus? He's really missing out, Planet Elder Scrolls (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/) has a much, much bigger support from modders.

A link to the official mod forum (http://forums.bethsoft.com/?showforum=12) i would consider the most essential link for anyone who's serious about replaying/modding Morrowind.

Morrowind Code Patch (http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=19510) i would consider a must. It fixes many bugs in the code, it even fixes so that rain doesnt go through roofs and such when you stand under it and many, many other things that should have been in the game to begin with. It doesnt just fix bugs, it ADDS stuff to the code, like support for bump mapping. The list of fixes/additions is really impressive.

Morrowind Patch Project (http://www.elricm.com/nuke/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=viewdownloaddetails&lid=4519) is another must have for bugfixes.

Some random screens from the forums (most people use Morrowind Graphics Extender):

http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/32210-1-1276199296.jpg
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/28552-1-1260048798.jpg
http://i27.tinypic.com/rm8vua.jpg
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/31051-1-1271269595.jpg
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/6316/zscreenshot09.jpg
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/29341-5-1279370381.jpg
http://www.tesnexus.com/imageshare/images/57416-1268762140.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/iamerik/MW%20and%20Oblivion/MGEScreenshot16-2.jpg
http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/2053/morrowind20100814164134.jpg
http://www.tesnexus.com/imageshare/images/57416-1279661609.jpg
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm207/Midnightrider775/Morrowind2009-12-2103-50-32-06.jpg
http://piclair.com/data/tduzr.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/iamerik/MW%20and%20Oblivion/MGEScreenshot21-3.jpg

[sigmarsson]

Argh, stop showing me all the pictures. Makes me want to play Morrowind again. Bad people, bad people :-)

[bemushroomed]

It has that effect on people, that's why i always try to spam MGE pics in threads about Morrowind hehehe, it's really worth replaying people! :)

[DArtagnan]

Is there some kind of easy way to install all the essentials?

I'd like to retry Morrowind - but I can't stand the thought of messing with so many mods, and trying to prevent crashes etc.

[bemushroomed]

It depends on what you consider the "essentials" i guess.. Installing MGE and different shaders does require a bit of reading, and it can be confusing at first (that's what the official forum is for).

It does take a bit of effort to make it look good and for it to be a smooth experience, i won't lie about that.

Morrowind has a utility called Wrye Mash (http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/1068986-wrye-mash-thread-5/) that automatically fixes the load order and it even gives you suggestions (like recommending an update for a specific mod etc). It's extremely useful.

[guenthar]

It isn't really all that difficult to install all of this but I suggest staying away from trying to move landmasses around to get them to work together correctly.

[ikbenrichard]

Argh, stop showing me all the pictures. Makes me want to play Morrowind again. Bad people, bad people :-)

Laughing my ass off !
But indeed, now i must play it also (again...). so many games so little time.

[xSamhainx]

Love this game, glad I got the whole shebang recently on Steam! Played it vanilla the first go-round, definitely going to experiment w/ the mods this time around.

Like I needed another game going now, but after that article it doesnt appear that I have much choice. Well written, thank you Vox for revisiting this awesome classic

[JemyM]

I never liked Morrowind. I didn't even complete it. I became a high priest, and for that I got an empty room and a title that didn't mean anything. I maxed out hand-to-hand, but it could barely make any damage so it took ages to kill a monster with it. Compared to Gothic it felt empty, void of story, void of anything that draw me to the game. The wikipedia style dialogue felt more like accessing a database than talking to people. I cannot remember a single NPC from the entire game, except the one that always had 5000 credits as well as the first guard you meet in the tutorial.

[DArtagnan]

I never liked Morrowind. I didn't even complete it. I became a high priest, and for that I got an empty room and a title that didn't mean anything. I maxed out hand-to-hand, but it could barely make any damage so it took ages to kill a monster with it. Compared to Gothic it felt empty, void of story, void of anything that draw me to the game. The wikipedia style dialogue felt more like accessing a database than talking to people. I cannot remember a single NPC from the entire game, except the one that always had 5000 credits as well as the first guard you meet in the tutorial.

I have to say, I agree with this 100%

The game was simply..... bland - in pretty much every way.

[JDR13]

Different type of game than Gothic, so that's not really a good comparison imo.

Morrowind was great, especially for its time. It was an explorer's dream for me. I put at least a 100 hours into that game just exploring. One of these days I want to go back and actually finish the main quest + both add-ins.

[DArtagnan]

I don't get that, really…

Exploring Morrowind?

You just came upon one cookie cutter dungeon after another, completely void of unique content. Everything was so "random" in feel, that I basically felt like playing a stream of computer generated content - in a very BROWN world.

Visually stunning, I'll grant you that - but incredibly static and DEAD, at the same time.

[DArtagnan]

Oh, to be fair, Morrowind DID have FANTASTIC city designs.

I suppose those were worth seeing, but still...

[JDR13]

Morrowind's dungeons were absolutely not devoid of unique content. The game you're thinking of was called Oblivion. :)

There were quite a few unique weapons (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Unique_Weapons) and artifacts (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Artifacts) scattered throughout Morrowind. Some were found in the cities, or on certain NPCs, but many were also found in dungeons, caverns, tombs, etc.

[pibbur]

I liked the landscapes, especially the Ashlands. (And the fact that I could turn on permanent rain.) Like JDR I spent a long time exploring. And I found it's lore and background story to be rich, far exceeding Gothic. I think I read and collected all the books I could get.

BTW, as far as I remember hand 2 hand only caused damage after you had knocked the opposition unconscious. It really wasn't meant to be used for killing opponents.

I agree with the dialogue critizism, however. I never understood the complaint about the dialogue in Oblivion. There were a lot more choices in Morrowind, yes. But most of it was completely useless, just a collection of keywords accumulated by talking.

[DArtagnan]

There's a bit of Deja Vu about this discussion ;)

[pibbur]

There's a bit of Deja Vu about this discussion ;)

I knew you would say that! (Admittedly a very predictable response)

[DArtagnan]

I knew you would say that!

You're psychic Pib ;)

Btw, I think the Ashlands was one of the most dreary and boring areas, I've ever had the misfortune of "exploring" ;)

[DeepO]

bland - in pretty much every way.
I certainly beg to differ on architecture, music, lore and spell system.
And there indeed is quite a lot of unique content that should make exploration interesting, especially if you like game´s atmosphere.
Otherwise, yep, bland, but nowadays a lot of issues can be helped with the right mods.

[DArtagnan]

I certainly beg to differ on architecture, music, lore and spell system.
And there indeed is quite a lot of unique content that should make exploration interesting, especially if you like game´s atmosphere.
Otherwise, yep, bland, but nowadays a lot of issues can be helped with the right mods.

I'm sure the lore is great, but the presentation was abysmal :)

The music, I'll grant you - but that can only carry a game so far.

Spell system? I HATE the TES spell system with a passion.

That pretty much goes for all the TES systems, though.

[DeepO]

Spell system? I HATE the TES spell system with a passion.

Hate it all you want, I´m just saying it wasn´t bland :).

[pibbur]

You're psychic Pib ;)

Btw, I think the Ashlands was one of the most dreary and boring areas, I've ever had the misfortune of "exploring" ;)

Dreary? By all means. In fact, that's why I liked them (And in WOW my favourite areas are "Duskwood" and "Desolace"), especially when I turned on permanent rain.

I guess this is another example of why one of the best known Norwegian paintings is "The Scream" (check my avatar), while Hip hip hooray (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PS_Kr%C3%B8yer_-_Hip_hip_hurra!_Kunstnerfest_p%C3%A5_Skagen_1888.j pg) is one of the most famous danish ones.

EDIT: Come to think of it: Dreariness - that's one of the reasons why I like Fallout 3 as much as I do. And now, some music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtnG6EHh1N4)

[DArtagnan]

Hate it all you want, I´m just saying it wasn´t bland :).

It was the very definition of bland, if you ask me ;)

Spells need to be predefined, and they need to be DISTINCTIVE, have a UNIQUE purpose, and look COOL AS HELL!

;)

[DArtagnan]

Dreary? By all means. In fact, that's why I liked them (And in WOW my favourite areas are "Duskwood" and "Desolace"), especially when I turned on permanent rain.

I guess this is another example of why one of the best known Norwegian paintings is "The Scream" (check my avatar), while Hip hip hooray (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PS_Kr%C3%B8yer_-_Hip_hip_hurra!_Kunstnerfest_p%C3%A5_Skagen_1888.j pg) is one of the most famous danish ones.

EDIT: Come to think of it: Dreariness - that's one of the reasons why I like Fallout 3 as much as I do. And now, some music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtnG6EHh1N4)

Duskwood dreary? Nah-ah!

Desolace, though, yes - and that was horrible!

Fallout 3 is one big bland area - but at least the dungeons were worth exploring :)

[DeepO]

It was the very definition of bland, if you ask me ;)

Spells need to be predefined, and they need to be DISTINCTIVE, have a UNIQUE purpose, and look COOL AS HELL!

;)

Haha, yeah the predefined spells certainly weren´t niftiest of the nifty, but there was quite a lot of use for magic outside of combat and there was a possibility to be creative with custom spells.

[DArtagnan]

Haha, yeah the predefined spells certainly weren´t niftiest of the nifty, but there was quite a lot of use for magic outside of combat and there was a possibility to be creative with custom spells.

Yeah, and I recognise that it's a matter of taste.

Basically, for things to feel "fresh" and "exciting" for me - they need to have a feel of being handcrafted and entirely unique. The same goes for the item system, and so on.

I just couldn't get excited by stuff that I had to create myself, or stuff that was obviously based on a very primitive formula.

Too predictable, and it looked like crap - to boot.

That said, not many games handle loot or spells particularly well.

Too many developers underestimate the value of such "details" :(

[Thrasher]

Appreciating unstructured wandering or unstructured whatever is one of the keys to liking Morrowind. Which also explains the huge modding base.

But it does get very repetitive after you've explored everything... Atmosphere and lore kept it interesting.

If I replayed I'd add some of the new huge landmass mods.

[JemyM]

Wait. Explore and Morrowind in the same sentence? Everything seemed generic to me, except for the cities. Gothic, all three of them, were really exciting to explore.

[Thrasher]

Ah, but there are some VERY unique places in Morrowind. I bet you didn't get very far...

[JuliusMagnus]

Wait. Explore and Morrowind in the same sentence? Everything seemed generic to me, except for the cities. Gothic, all three of them, were really exciting to explore.

seemed and to are the keywords in your sentence.

[DPB]

I don't really like the way the landscapes are constructed in TES III & IV. It's mostly hills and valleys and it feels like the terrain has been procedurally generated. No steep cliffs anywhere, just lots of slopes.

Looking at the Tamriel rebuilt mod, they seem to have done a much better job with world-building, it's more akin to the approach taken in the Gothics and Risen.

[guenthar]

DArtagnan: If you want distinctive spells and items there are mods that add those to the game. In Oblivion there are more mods that add spells but there are some in Morrowind also.

[bemushroomed]

Wait. Explore and Morrowind in the same sentence? Everything seemed generic to me, except for the cities. Gothic, all three of them, were really exciting to explore.

I think it's one of the least generic RPG's. It's one of few games where it feels like you've really travelled somewhere and is visiting a new culture when you get to a new region. Gothic's didnt come even close, even though i did like them they werent nearly as "mystical"or felt as "epic".

Oblivion was the opposite :( felt very generic, was rather boring to explore since everything was mainly a forrest with towns thrown in + the Oblivion gates (which was very dull).

[Thrasher]

I have to agree with you there, although I've only played G2. Need to check out the others.

[Relayer]

Morrowind doesn't get enough praise :) You left out the expansions though, one thing I feel was done to near perfection in Morrowind.

Tribunal gave us a nice long dungeon romp with improved dialogue and quests and Bloodmoon took us back outdoors with a whole island with a distinctive environment from the rest of the game (SNOWY FORESTS!!!) and werewolves.

Morrowind wasn't perfect and it definitely took a bunch of mods to get it closer to perfection (which mods depends on what the individual player felt was lacking) but I also feel that even with the vanilla game, both expansions went a long way towards making up for some of the original game's shortcomings. So together it makes for one of the greatest RPGs of all time.

Shame about Oblivion :(

[Relayer]

I think it's one of the least generic RPG's. It's one of few games where it feels like you've really travelled somewhere and is visiting a new culture when you get to a new region.

Oblivion was the opposite :( felt very generic, was rather boring to explore since everything was mainly a forrest with towns thrown in + the Oblivion gates (which was very dull).

Totally agree!

[DArtagnan]

Appreciating unstructured wandering or unstructured whatever is one of the keys to liking Morrowind. Which also explains the huge modding base.

But it does get very repetitive after you've explored everything… Atmosphere and lore kept it interesting.

If I replayed I'd add some of the new huge landmass mods.

I absolutely adore unstructured wandering ;)

I played Morrowind for countless hours, hoping to get excited.

I have no idea what people are talking about, when they claim it's not generic. I saw AT LEAST 60% of the world - and everything was incredibly bland or brown. Sure, you could encounter a few stiff and insane NPCs, or some incredibly annoying monsters with no feedback during combat - but anything unique?

I guess both Jemy and I - must have been INCREDIBLY unlucky in terms of not finding all this stuff you're talking about.

The landscapes did have variety, but within a limited color palette for the most part.

You'd think we've played 2 completely different games with the same name, and I'm not exaggerating here. That's my clear memory of playing the game.

Just as Jemy said, the lore was presented like browsing a wikipedia page, and the combat was absolutely atrocious.

Plenty of dungeons, but they had nothing to offer but endless tableware and samey designs.

If there were artifacts, and I'm sure there were, they were certainly well hidden - and I'm not about to explore 50 identical cookie cutter dungeons, just to find a single artifact.

[JemyM]

I think it's one of the least generic RPG's. It's one of few games where it feels like you've really travelled somewhere and is visiting a new culture when you get to a new region. Gothic's didnt come even close, even though i did like them they werent nearly as "mystical"or felt as "epic".

I spent weeks in Morrowind, but I cannot remember this at all. All I remember is "wikipedia", no dialogue, no cutscenes, and if there was a story in the game I missed it completely. I never finished the game despite the hours I spent. I remember Morrowind feeling like a painting, a beautiful scene with no interactions. I think the lack of dialogue really nailed the coffin for me. There were simply nothing in the came I could care for, no NPC's, no real people, just "signposts". I consider Oblivion a great improvement, but still not a good game.

[pibbur]

I spent weeks in Morrowind, but I cannot remember this at all. All I remember is "wikipedia", no dialogue, no cutscenes, and if there was a story in the game I missed it completely. I never finished the game despite the hours I spent. I remember Morrowind feeling like a painting, a beautiful scene with no interactions. I think the lack of dialogue really nailed the coffin for me. There were simply nothing in the came I could care for, no NPC's, no real people, just "signposts". I consider Oblivion a great improvement, but still not a good game.

And I have it on number 3 of my best-rpg's-I've-played list (after PS:T and U7). I found the world to be rich and exotic with a great story. Better than Oblivion. It's fascinating that we can experience the same game that differently.

The one thing I didn't like was the number of choices when talking to NPC's, most of them were meaningless, added because you asked another NPC about it.

BTW: By dialogue - do you mean voiceovers? Voiceovers and cutsccenes are in my eyes and ears one of the least important aspects of a game.

[DArtagnan]

It's also about how static the world feels. IIRC, there was zero movement in the environment.

Everything was completely still.

Oblivion had a much nicer environment, because trees swayed and the animations of all the creatures were MUCH better. The forests felt truly alive, while Morrowind felt more like a dead alien planet.

I agree Oblivion suffered from a handful of the same problems, but it was a significant improvement in terms of immersion and presentation.

Describing Morrowind as a painting seems pretty accurate to me, and a rather dull painting at that.

[pibbur]

Oblivion had a much nicer environment, because trees swayed and the animations of all the creatures were MUCH better. The forests felt truly alive, while Morrowind felt more like a dead alien planet.


I agree that Oblivion is far better here, but these are things that mean very little to me in an RPG.

[DArtagnan]

I agree that Oblivion is far better here, but these are things that mean very little to me in an RPG.

That would explain a lot ;)

Also, the movement of your character was like skating in Morrowind. To call it stiff would be too kind.

In Oblivion, they improved combat feedback immensely, and you could almost feel the impact when hit, etc.

Morrowind was just hitting the same button a zillion times and watching health bars drain. To make matters worse, they even had a "use best attack" option, which meant zero variety THROUGHOUT the game.

Talk about having no understanding of what makes a game FUN.

Then again, maybe it's about imagination. I'm not good with that, and I need stuff to immerse myself. I don't really enjoy having to imagine all the fun, you know ;)

[GhanBuriGhan]

I'm among those who really loved morrowind. I am also among those who started adding mods almost from the beginning. I maybe played Vanilla MW for 6 hours or so.

For MW, I felt it is really true that the world is the star. If you take the time to really explore the culture and history of the place, it was very rewarding, I thought. Lore was actually delivered mostly through the books - dialog gave you only relatively little insight, ultimately. Still lore was also rather nicely interwoven with the main plot and many side quests, and of course it was great to actually go and see places you had only read about before. There was a rather unique culture, history and religion to explore in Morrowind.
And that exactly remains my biggest dissapointment with Oblivion - there was nothing comparable in that game. What a waste, considering the setting was the Imperial province!
I guess I am also one of the few people who liked the wiki style dalogue. I thought is was a nice way to incorporate some of the freedom of older text parser style games with the traditional dialog tree mechanic. I did miss the greater detail and freedom of DF's character generation system though (especially the ability to add negative effects to your character in exchange for powerful abilities of faster leveling).
It's a great game for me, but I guess you have to bring a bit of a LARPing / simulationist mindset to it to truly enjoy it.

[pibbur]

.. To make matters worse, they even had a "use best attack" option, which meant zero variety THROUGHOUT the game.

Talk about having no understanding of what makes a game FUN.
...

It was an option. You didn't have to use it, so I don't think it's fair to critizise them for that.

[DArtagnan]

It was an option. You didn't have to use it, so I don't think it's fair to critizise them for that.

You better believe it's fair ;)

Telling players: "this will do optimal damage" instead of simply letting players figure things out themselves, is not good game design.

It's like saying I don't have to use auto travel, because it's there.

It's like paying people a million dollars each year, and then suggest they can get paid half - if they want - because it would be fair to others.

Never EVER expect players to punish themselves by meta-gaming. Such an option is to DIRECTLY break down the illusion of what a game is supposed to be. Give players the game as it's meant to be - and don't expect them to fully understand what makes it the most fun. That's YOUR job, as a designer.

That's EXACTLY the kind of thing so popular today, and yet so wrong. The artist should know - and it should be from the heart. Not from a misguided objective viewpoint.

If you want an exciting combat system, you make different attacks effective in a variety of ways. You don't make a single attack the most effective, and let players tick an option to ensure that will always be the one used.

It's so incredibly stupid, I lack the words :)

[pibbur]

You better believe it's fair ;)

Telling players: "this will do optimal damage" instead of simply letting players figure things out themselves, is not good game design.

It's like saying I don't have to use auto travel, because it's there.

It's like paying people a million dollars each year, and then suggest they can get paid half - if they want - because it would be fair to others.

Never EVER expect players to punish themselves by meta-gaming. Such an option is to DIRECTLY break down the illusion of what a game is supposed to be. Give players the game as it's meant to be - and don't expect them to fully understand what makes it the most fun. That's YOUR job, as a designer.

That's EXACTLY the kind of thing so popular today, and yet so wrong. The artist should know - and it should be from the heart. Not from a misguided objective viewpoint.

If you want an exciting combat system, you make different attacks effective in a variety of ways. You don't make a single attack the most effective, and let players tick an option to ensure that will always be the one used.

It's so incredibly stupid, I lack the words :)

I disagree completely.

In Morrowind I did quite a lot of powergaming, which made me too strong in the end, I don't blame Morrowind for that. In Oblivion I chose not to do that, which made the game more funny. As for fast-travel in Oblivion - sometimes I used it, most of the time I didn't. No problem.

I can only see these choices as a benefit. It doesn't destroy my gaming at all. (and I can't see this has anything to do with art)

[DArtagnan]

I disagree completely.

In Morrowind I did quite a lot of powergaming, which made me too strong in the end, I don't blame Morrowind for that. In Oblivion I chose not to do that, which made the game more funny.

I can only see these choices as a benefit. It doesn't destroy my gaming at all. (and I can't see this has anything to do with art)

Game design is art, if you ask me ;)

At least, that's what I'd like it to be.

Morrowind isn't really art, though, because it's not made by artists as much as opportunists.

In my opinion, the art is created by the artist - not the player.

You can give the player the power to impact the world and the characters, but what you DON'T give him, is the power to change the underlying rules. That's like living life with the option to change the rules of gravity - or the rules of falling in love. It's not healthy ;)

That's just my opinion, though, and clearly - a lot of designers today think it's a good idea to give players these options, because then they don't have to make a decision. Essentially, they're handing the job of the designer over to the player.

I don't want to play a game that I've created myself. I want to play something others have created, because then it's an experience that's "pure".

I don't know if that makes sense, but that's my viewpoint.

[pibbur]

Game design is art, if you ask me ;)

At least, that's what I'd like it to be.

Morrowind isn't really art, though, because it's not made by artists as much as opportunists.

In my opinion, the art is created by the artist - not the player.

You can give the player the power to impact the world and the characters, but what you DON'T give him, is the power to change the underlying rules. That's like living life with the option to change the rules of gravity - or the rules of falling in love. It's not healthy ;)

That's just my opinion, though, and clearly - a lot of designers today think it's a good idea to give players these options, because then they don't have to make a decision. Essentially, they're handing the job of the designer over to the player.

I don't want to play a game that I've created myself. I want to play something others have created, because then it's an experience that's "pure".

I don't know if that makes sense, but that's my viewpoint.

It makes sense, yes, you explain your views clearly. I think however you stretch things a bit too far - I can't see how giving a few small choices like we talk about here, makes the games something I made myself.

Well, well - I don't need to be a psychic to predict we won't ever reach an agreement here.

[DArtagnan]

It makes sense, yes, you explain your views clearly. I think however you stretch things a bit too far - I can't see how giving a few small choices like we talk about here, makes the games something I made myself.

Well, well - I don't need to be a psychic to predict we won't ever reach an agreement here.

Of course not, that was just to make my point clear. But it's an example of forcing a design choice on a player, that shouldn't have been there.

I feel the same way about most implementations of difficulty levels, or arguments like "you don't HAVE to use the most powerful weapon" - stuff like that.

I'm a huge fan of pure experiences, and I'm a huge fan of playing games that feel like the designers knew what the hell they were doing, and which I can immerse myself in completely, without having to adjust game rules - hoping to somehow predict what the game will be like, with this or that choice. You have to COMPLETELY understand a game, before you can make balance choices like this. Difficulty levels are good after having finished a game once, because then you know the experience. But it's completely moronic to ask players to make a choice about how difficult the game should be, because there's NO basis for comparison, and there's NO way for the player to know exactly what it will be like, anyway. It's idiotic, and developers have been doing it for ages - as a clutch. Naturally, it's better than nothing, but it's simply not the right way to do such a thing.

You could say it's like giving moviegoers the option of changing what happens in the film - like giving them the choice:"Should the protagonist kill this guy, or not." - effectively deciding the story without knowing the consequence. I wouldn't enjoy that, personally. I like to see things like the writer sees them, because it's his work. In games, this can work - because I'm THERE - but in the movies I'm not.

But you're right - we probably won't agree ;)

No big deal, but it's an interesting thing to me. I really believe that I'm right in how this kind of thing affects the experience, and I'd love more focus on the issue - because it seems players everywhere are ENCOURAGING designers to let them "make their own games" - which I think is shortsighted and not really a sign of understanding what makes games fun, in the end ;)

[GhanBuriGhan]

Well, the morrowind experience really speaks against your view. Mods are basically an almost unlimited basket of options, and there is a great number of people, myself included, who have found that it greatly increased their playing experience. We are all different. Some love realistic hunger and thirst in RPG's, some hate it. Some like combat with special moves and gore, some hate it. Some like crafting and fishing, some hate it. Some like gothic-style attire, some hate it. All of these people can today play morrowind and still enjoy the vision of the land and the quests the designers made. Not every game lends itself to such an approach, but a "toy like" game like MW, a sandbox, does.

[DArtagnan]

Well, the morrowind experience really speaks against your view. Mods are basically an almost unlimited basket of options, and there is a great number of people, myself included, who have found that it greatly increased their playing experience. We are all different. Some love realistic hunger and thirst in RPG's, some hate it. Some like combat with special moves and gore, some hate it. Some like crafting and fishing, some hate it. Some like gothic-style attire, some hate it. All of these people can today play morrowind and still enjoy the vision of the land and the quests the designers made. Not every game lends itself to such an approach, but a "toy like" game like MW, a sandbox, does.

You completely fail to understand my point, though.

I don't have a problem with user-created content in principle. I have a problem playing content that I, personally, have created or with rules that I've changed. That's meta-gaming.

I have a problem with making design decisions for developers. OTHER users can function as developers, but generally they suck at it. Not because they're not competent, but because games are hard to change at the core.

User-created content can work great, but it's VERY VERY rare to find game-changing rules that retain the "pure" experience. The balance of a game, is too dependent on fully understanding the game.

Again, I'd MUCH rather play a game that's pure and that's a decent experience, than I want to spend an eternity trying to tweak it or add to it.

The reason user-created content is so great with Morrowind and Oblivion, is that the games are fundamentally crap. Mind you, that's just my opinion.

The core of the games are crap, but they're full of potential. So, obviously it's nice that there are players around the world trying to fix them - but I think it's hugely sad that it's necessary.

If the games were good at the core, I would never really have wasted any time with mods. Because I generally don't enjoy amateur-stuff. Not unless the toolset is particularly well-suited for that, where NWN is a good example.

I've played Oblivion A LOT - and I've used A LOT of mods. It's never REALLY worked, and there was always some kind of balance issue or technical issue getting in the way.

The reality is that the IDEA of user-created content is great, but players are kidding themselves if they think it's a good alternative to a competently designed game.

I bet most of you, having played with all these mods, are deliberately forgetting or ignoring the issues they introduce. Maybe you're the lenient type that just "deals with it" and don't mind balance issues or stuff that messes with the purity of an experience.

Unfortunately, I'm not.

[GhanBuriGhan]

You completely fail to understand my point, though.

I don't have a problem with user-created content in principle. I have a problem playing content that I, personally, have created or with rules that I've changed. That's meta-gaming.

No reason to be rude, no I don't fail to understand your point. What you describe is exactly what I am doing with modded MW - playing with rules and content I have created (or selected from a large number of choices).

I have a problem with making design decisions for developers. OTHER users can function as developers, but generally they suck at it. Not because they're not competent, but because games are hard to change at the core.

User-created content can work great, but it's VERY VERY rare to find game-changing rules that retain the "pure" experience. The balance of a game, is too dependent on fully understanding the game.

Again, I'd MUCH rather play a game that's pure and that's a decent experience, than I want to spend an eternity trying to tweak it or add to it.

I can understand that. I don't usually actively seek mods out. It was different in case of TES where I was part of the scene, and it was only natural to use the mods I helped create and discussed on the forums.
However that idea of purity, I don't know… I can see where you come from with the idea of purity, looking at games as an art form. Few games released so far are strong enough as an expression of an artistic vision however, that I would be worried messing with it. £Then there is the fact, that most game projects get wrapped up under publisher pressure, budget and time constraints. The pure vision of the developer will often have been different from the final product - sometimes mods can even restore a game to be closer to that vision. And then there is the whole idea of art as an interactive process, too. There is a certain joy in seeing how changing the rules changes the experience that I think is quite appropriate for an interactive medium.
Anyway, the other side is that games are entertainment, and if changing the rules is fun, who will be the judge? Let's play Calvinball, I say!

The reason user-created content is so great with Morrowind and Oblivion, is that the games are fundamentally crap. Mind you, that's just my opinion.

The core of the games are crap, but they're full of potential. So, obviously it's nice that there are players around the world trying to fix them - but I think it's hugely sad that it's necessary.

And I never bought that argument "the players had to fix it!". There is many arguments against it, but to me the most convincing is still how successful MW was as a console game, without any user mods. Mods provide choice - they did not fix the game, except in the minds of particular people disliking particular features.


If the games were good at the core, I would never really have wasted any time with mods. Because I generally don't enjoy amateur-stuff. Not unless the toolset is particularly well-suited for that, where NWN is a good example.

In my experience, in any mod community I have followed there has eventually been content created that is superior to the original offering. Among a heapload of crap, of course, and maybe only for a very specific aspect, but thats beside the point. The idea that user created content is always amateurish is simply wrong.

I've played Oblivion A LOT - and I've used A LOT of mods. It's never REALLY worked, and there was always some kind of balance issue or technical issue getting in the way.

I haven't bothered that much with Oblivion. For MW, my experience was different, running 60 or so mods without noticeable conflicts or problems (or course using the proper tools and procedures etc., which admittedly requires way too much time and dedication for most. In fact I shy away from a replay partly for that reason myself)


The reality is that the IDEA of user-created content is great, but players are kidding themselves if they think it's a good alternative to a competently designed game.

True, an editor is no excuse for a bad game. MW wasn't a bad game, though ;)

I bet most of you, having played with all these mods, are deliberately forgetting or ignoring the issues they introduce. Maybe you're the lenient type that just "deals with it" and don't mind balance issues or stuff that messes with the purity of an experience.

Unfortunately, I'm not.

[bemushroomed]

I've played a lot with mods too, in Morrowind, FO3, Oblivion. I've come across balance issues and technical issues, it's to be expected. But just as many times i've had really great experiences as well, which has been balanced nicely and without technical problems at all (at least not more than your average PC game).

Sometimes i've put weeks or even months of effort into modding games into "perfection" (my idea of it anyways). I find it really fun and creative, i guess many people absolutely hate it and don't really put much effort into it, they just want to play, that's when the experience will suck..

One time i had 220-something morrowind mods, content wise no other game can come even close to that (except for a just as heaviliy modded Oblivion/FO3), it really takes exploring to a whole new level (i consider these games to be mainly about exploring, which is what i love about games).

[DArtagnan]

No reason to be rude, no I don't fail to understand your point. What you describe is exactly what I am doing with modded MW - playing with rules and content I have created (or selected from a large number of choices).

I didn't mean to be rude?

Yeah, maybe that's what you enjoy, but I don't. I don't like having to make decisions for the designer, as I said, because then I feel like I'm "cheating" or corrupting the experience.

Maybe it sounds like I'm a fanatic, or something, but I HAVE played games this way - and my conclusion is simply that I don't enjoy it - when it's all said and done.

I can have fun, but eventually I'll encounter a situation where the balance is off, or something is clearly not meant to happen - according to the original vision.

That takes me OUT of the experience.

I suppose a key point with all of this, is that I'm HUGELY into immersion. I absolutely adore the chance to explore a completely different world - and I adore turning off my critical sense - because it's so rare that I get to do that.

Risen, as an example, is a recent example of fantastic immersion without breaking the barrier in any way.

I can understand that. I don't usually actively seek mods out. It was different in case of TES where I was part of the scene, and it was only natural to use the mods I helped create and discussed on the forums.
However that idea of purity, I don't know… I can see where you come from with the idea of purity, looking at games as an art form. Few games released so far are strong enough as an expression of an artistic vision however, that I would be worried messing with it. £Then there is the fact, that most game projects get wrapped up under publisher pressure, budget and time constraints. The pure vision of the developer will often have been different from the final product - sometimes mods can even restore a game to be closer to that vision. And then there is the whole idea of art as an interactive process, too. There is a certain joy in seeing how changing the rules changes the experience that I think is quite appropriate for an interactive medium.
Anyway, the other side is that games are entertainment, and if changing the rules is fun, who will be the judge? Let's play Calvinball, I say!

Changing the rules can be fun, but as I said - I believe it's a shortsighted pleasure. Then it becomes a different experience entirely, and you're playing a different role - as the designer, rather than the player.

I have to refer to my earlier point about immersion, to get this message across clearly.

And I never bought that argument "the players had to fix it!". There is many arguments against it, but to me the most convincing is still how successful MW was as a console game, without any user mods. Mods provide choice - they did not fix the game, except in the minds of particular people disliking particular features.

I never go by sales. I go by whether I think something works or not. We don't need to go into how many games have sold well, but that we actively dislike around here.

Naturally, I can't claim the game was broken - because it worked as intended.

I just think it was crap.


In my experience, in any mod community I have followed there has eventually been content created that is superior to the original offering. Among a heapload of crap, of course, and maybe only for a very specific aspect, but thats beside the point. The idea that user created content is always amateurish is simply wrong.

The content can be superior, we agree - but the end result, as in the combination of that content AND the original game is VERY rarely better than just the original game if it wasn't fundamentally flawed.

I haven't bothered that much with Oblivion. For MW, my experience was different, running 60 or so mods without noticeable conflicts or problems (or course using the proper tools and procedures etc., which admittedly requires way too much time and dedication for most. In fact I shy away from a replay partly for that reason myself)

I think I've played Oblivion 4-5 times, each with perhaps 40-60 mods - and every time I stop before I'm "done" - because the game is simply broken with those mods. It either crashes, or something happens with balance that just doesn't feel right.

Maybe I'm overly sensitive - or maybe I'm particularly perceptive ;)

True, an editor is no excuse for a bad game. MW wasn't a bad game, though ;)

It was horrible ;)

[GhanBuriGhan]

So I guess we both made clear why we enjoy or not enjoy these things. As for developers they will have to make a decision regarding what amount of choice or optional rules etc. is right for their game and their audience. Ultimately I think editors are a good compromise here - they allow those that really want to to change almost anything, but don't burden people who'd rather avoid that with a ton of half-assed options.

[Relayer]

Morrowind isn't really art, though, because it's not made by artists as much as opportunists.

Wow, talk about not getting it!

Opportunists would not take the time to create the amount of lore available in the world of Morrowind, lore that really enriches your gameplay AND makes the game world come alive IF you take the time to delve into it.

Now I totally understand those who feel the game is "dead" because some would rather play than read in a game but you could still play the game and get the gist of the politics and social issues in the region and gameworld without reading the in-game books. The great thing about Morrowind IF YOU WERE PAYING ATTENTION is how lore is interwoven pretty solidly between sidequests, the main quest, dialogue, the books and the stuff in the expansion pack.

Again, Morrowind wasn't perfect. NPCs standing still all day brought the game down a bit BUT aside from Gothic and a few other games, what other games from 2002 or before had NPCs with all-day schedules? Characters in Baldur's Gate didn't have them, they also mostly stood around waiting to be spoken to. Same with most other PC RPgs. Same with console RPGs so I don't get why Morrowind gets slammed for this repeatedly.

The wiki-style dialogue also sucked but after a bit you learned to just skim through it and ignore all the repetitive stuff. Oblivion going the complete opposite with only 1 or 2 simplistic lines of dialogue per NPC wasn't much better. Hopefully Bethesda can improve this aspect going forward.

Opportunists go for cookie-cutter design. It's clear that a lot of work AND love went into designing the architecture in Morrowind. Sure, the color palette isn't that exciting, I agree. But I would say that's more of a unified design choice and made sense considering the region the game took place in. They made Bloodmoon take place in a snowy island and the color palette suited that. The weather effects were also great and helped with immersion.

Opportunists would have made the game far more accessible like add a quest GPS, more accessible fast travel, reduce the amount of skills, make guild quests easier, reduce the amount of joinable factions. Bethesda did all this with Oblivion which is why I don't like it but Morrowind is not a readily accesible game.

As for everything being the same - Morrowind GAVE you a reason to explore. Caves were admittedly small but you would usually find some cool item or weapon or bits of lore and the scale levelling wasn't as transparent as in Oblivion so you would never know what you were up against. Oblivion's loot was also level scaled so exploring dungeons didn't matter much. Finding shipwrecks and shrines or monuments was also cool. Especially finding something you had previously read about in one of the many books.

Also, there was more than enough variety in the game, color-palette aside. Every town had a unique look. Are you saying Balmora, Vivec, Pelegiad, Tel Aruhn and the Ashlander camps all look the same????? Every Great House area had a distinct style.

I guess you hated Fallout's color palette and lack of design variety as well.

[bkrueger]

I spent weeks in Morrowind, but I cannot remember this at all. All I remember is "wikipedia", no dialogue, no cutscenes, and if there was a story in the game I missed it completely.

Spending weeks in a game without finding anything you like seems slightly masochistic to me.

Anyway, I liked it very much, primarily for story/background/lore and exploration, though I agree that Gothic had a better content to size ratio.

[Relayer]

To add: I do understand your view and it does make sense.

I don't think Morrowind is for everyone. And Bethesda should spend a lot more time on game mechanics and dialogue than on their sandbox ideals.

BUT, what Morrowind did well in my opinion and why so many love it is it gave you a sandbox to explore with a very unique flavor. I find the world they've created unique and fascinating. And yes it does require a few mods, but at it's core what moves me in Morrowind is the world/lore itself which is what Bethesda excelled at.

Oblivion improved some of the gameplay aspects but it was one step forwards, two steps back. Level/item scaling ruined what could have been a worthy and most improved sequel. The graphics are beautiful but it doesn't have that awe-inspiring effect that Morrowind's alien landscapes/architecture had. But with improved gameplay and taking place in the same world, it may not have needed it.

Was not a losing situation though. I think they succeeded in making a more accessible consolized game which really helped get the game to more gamers. Unfortunately for some like me, the game became too simplified and Bethesda's main weaknesses like dialogue really came to the fore. And that horrendous voice acting!

[JDR13]

I've never seen one person try so hard to convince everyone else that their opinion must be wrong. :)

[mprod]

Excuse me for jumping in so late I must say that I´m a bit surprised somehow I thought the battlelines would be drawn between the daggerfall crowd vs morrowind and how they sacrificed so much and dumded it down for morrowind

Leaving Oblivion as the moot point that everybody can agree about

I guess I´m old
(although I did actually finish the main storyline in df before i had internet access)

cheers
M

[DArtagnan]

I've never seen one person try so hard to convince everyone else that their opinion must be wrong. :)

You mean explaining his point of view?

One wonders why you can't see that everyone is telling me I'm wrong, if you look at it from another perspective :)

But I don't think that's the case…

I just think we're having a debate, based on differing tastes and experiences.

I happen to find that fascinating, which is why I go to great lengths to detail what I think, and why.

Convincing people they're wrong on a public forum, is like boiling an egg in the freezer. As in, not very productive.

[bkrueger]

Convincing people they're wrong on a public forum, is like boiling an egg in the freezer. As in, not very productive.
In particular trying to convince *you* of anything.... :lol:

[Thrasher]

Productive or fun? ;)

[DArtagnan]

Productive or fun? ;)

Neither, really ;)

I gave that up long ago.

But, if you don't truly believe in what you say, why say it at all?

[DArtagnan]

In particular trying to convince *you* of anything…. :lol:

Well, I could drop a few names for comparison, but what would that do.

Still, you're right - I suppose ;)

[Thrasher]

So if not to accomplish anything and not for fun, then why? Just to blow off steam?

[JDR13]

Explaining one's point of view only takes one post. Trying to debate, point for point, against examples of what other people liked about it, goes beyond that.

[Relayer]

I've never seen one person try so hard to convince everyone else that their opinion must be wrong.

Explaining one's point of view only takes one post.


That's 2 posts… just saying :)

[Roland]

Damit, I just loaded up a low lvl toon from '06 and played for 2hrs because of this thread!!!!

Was a lot of fun, thx :)

[JDR13]

That's 2 posts… just saying :)

Doh!

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=205601180626&id=b2624850ac474df04 c7c5f0f3207f33d&index=ch1

[JemyM]

Thing with exploration in Gothic was that;
- Content is handmade
- Resources are static and limited
- Best stuff is often looted

This means that exploration is;
- Usually instantly rewarded
- Necessary to get all the powerful stuff (only way to get the rare unique plants, usually grant much better equipment than what's available in shops).
- Varied, you do find unique areas and interesting places all over the place

In my experience with Morrowind, magic, enhancements and alchemy was usually the quick route to power, and this could usually be bought in shops. You get the money best by stealing.

[DArtagnan]

Explaining one's point of view only takes one post. Trying to debate, point for point, against examples of what other people liked about it, goes beyond that.

What world are you living in?

In the real world, explaining one's point of view is a matter of back and forth exchange, because you can't know exactly how you're perceived - and you rarely think of everything there is to say on the matter in one go.

Wake up, dude ;)

Do we really need to take a look at any of the hundreds of debates without me, to see how many posts people take to explain themselves and clarify.

To explain something, you need to get a sense that the people on the receiving end is getting the point. That point has been reached in this thread, it seems - and it didn't take that many posts. I'm pleased ;)

[DArtagnan]

So if not to accomplish anything and not for fun, then why? Just to blow off steam?

Why people would want to convince others they're wrong?

You'd have to ask them :)

I think the interesting thing about exchanging thoughts and opinions, about things we're passionate about, is to learn and challenge oneself - as well as others.

I mean, if I really believe something - I think supporting that belief and defending my point of view is only natural. Others might not "convince" me that I'm wrong right away, but their words are heard - and ideas take time to form, sometimes.

You can "change" opinions in a subtle way, and they might never know you've influenced them. But who cares, as long as a more informed opinion is the result. That's actually my number one hope - and why I can stand going through these endless circular debates with people just as stubborn as I. It's my hope that one or both parties LEARN something. But what I don't give a shit about, is taking credit or who's right (which is often meaningless - dealing with such subjective things). That's not important.

So it can go both ways, and I'm definitely influenced - just as any smart person would be.

Only morons refuse to let others influence them.

[Thrasher]

Learning is a form of accomplishment. So that makes sense.

[DArtagnan]

Yeah, and I've certainly been influenced to try Morrowind again some time soon.

Even stubborn old JDR inspired me to play The Witcher on hard, soonish.

What to do first, though….

[pibbur]

...
What to do first, though….

First? I'll tell you what to do first. First you say after me:

"MORROWIND IS A GREAT GAME"
"MORROWIND IS A GREAT GAME"
"MORROWIND IS A GREAT GAME"
"MORROWIND IS A GREAT GAME"
...

[DArtagnan]

First? I'll tell you what to do first. First you say after me:

"MORROWIND IS A GREAT GAME"
"MORROWIND IS A GREAT GAME"
"MORROWIND IS A GREAT GAME"
"MORROWIND IS A GREAT GAME"
…

Entering hypnotized state.....

[JDR13]

In the real world, explaining one's point of view is a matter of back and forth exchange, because you can't know exactly how you're perceived - and you rarely think of everything there is to say on the matter in one go.


Sure, if only that's what you were actually doing all the time. :)

[DArtagnan]

Sure, if only that's what you were actually doing all the time. :)

Oh, that's right, I was trying to convince people they're wrong - because your perception is truth, right? ;)

[JDR13]

Oh, that's right, I was trying to convince people they're wrong -

I'll simply let others decide that on their own. :)

[DArtagnan]

I'll simply let others decide that on their own :)

Unusually generous of you :)

[JDR13]

Nah, it's just that they really don't need me to point out the obvious.

[DArtagnan]

Nah, it's just that they really didn't need me to point out the obvious.

Are you saying you suddenly think people can think for themselves?

You really ARE being generous today!

[JDR13]

Are you saying you suddenly think people can think for themselves?

Now that is ironic considering the source. :lol:

[Zaleukos]

Yeah, and I've certainly been influenced to try Morrowind again some time soon.

Even stubborn old JDR inspired me to play The Witcher on hard, soonish.

What to do first, though….

I love Morrowind (while recognising significant flaws, like Bethsoftitis tonnes of levelled random content before getting to the 50 or so artefacts, and possibly the worst combat I've ever encountered in a first person RPG), but I would advice against that. The game isnt for everyone and life is too short for going back to games you dont like. Mods can only take the game so far.

The Witcher is another matter entirely. Raising the difficulty level and picking different sides is a different enough experience to be interesting...

[DArtagnan]

I love Morrowind (while recognising significant flaws, like Bethsoftitis tonnes of levelled random content before getting to the 50 or so artefacts, and possibly the worst combat I've ever encountered in a first person RPG), but I would advice against that. The game isnt for everyone and life is too short for going back to games you dont like. Mods can only take the game so far.

The Witcher is another matter entirely. Raising the difficulty level and picking different sides is a different enough experience to be interesting…

Yeah, that's a good point.

Morrowind probably just isn't for me, and I'd have to spend an eternity tweaking it with mods.

I'll go for The Witcher when time permits.

Not because it's really my kind of game, but because the sequel is looking like a massive improvement - and I hate to miss out on the story.

[DArtagnan]

Now that is ironic considering the source. :lol:

Ain't it though!

Few things are more endearing to me, than baseless arrogance helming textbook projection of a human flaw as evident, and basic, as your insecurity complex.

Kinda cute, actually.

Are you taken? *kisses*

[Voxclamant]

Taking a step back from the current thread :-/…

I really enjoy watching when RPGers start discussing a game. The wide points of view show just how creative and imaginative you have to be to immerse yourself in an RPG storyline. Actually, Pibbur summed it up well, “It's fascinating that we can experience the same game that differently.” You have about as much chance for consensus on Morrowind as if you asked two diehard RPGers to agree on which series was better – Neverwinter Nights, or Icewind Dale. Don't even bother trying!

I expected to see most of the thread here focus on the Morrowind game itself (my original goal when starting the piece), but I especially enjoyed seeing that there are others out there as insane as myself about the role of mods. My two favorite quotes in this thread had little to do with the core Morrowind. :-)

GhanBuriGhan said: Mods are basically an almost unlimited basket of options, and there is a great number of people, myself included, who have found that it greatly increased their playing experience. We are all different. Some love realistic hunger and thirst in RPG's, some hate it. Some like combat with special moves and gore, some hate it. Some like crafting and fishing, some hate it. Some like gothic-style attire, some hate it. All of these people can today play morrowind and still enjoy the vision of the land and the quests the designers made. Not every game lends itself to such an approach, but a "toy like" game like MW, a sandbox, does.

Bemushroomed: Sometimes I've put weeks or even months of effort into modding games into "perfection" (my idea of it anyways). I find it really fun and creative, I guess many people absolutely hate it and don't really put much effort into it, they just want to play, that's when the experience will suck.

But the real bottom line of what the Morrowind/Mod combination offers might be this one:D

Roland said: Damit, I just loaded up a low lvl toon from '06 and played for 2hrs because of this thread!!!! Was a lot of fun, thx

[Anderson]

I loved Morrowind. It was my first RPG. I loved it even on the original Xbox, with the subpar graphics and zero mods. Favorite game ever. It was a revelation to me of what an RPG could offer. All I'd known till then were JRPGs, which I had no interest in.

I played it again recently and was stunned at how immediately immersed I became again in the world. Like hearing an old song you immediately remember all the words to. Great game, flaws and all.

[JemyM]

Spending weeks in a game without finding anything you like seems slightly masochistic to me.

Anyway, I liked it very much, primarily for story/background/lore and exploration, though I agree that Gothic had a better content to size ratio.

If people celebrate games, I give them a chance. I took equally long with Oblivion, but actually finished that one, and the expansion.

[JDR13]

Few things are more endearing to me, than baseless arrogance helming textbook projection of a human flaw as evident, and basic, as your insecurity complex.


What's funny, and sad, is that I think you really believe the flaw is always with the other person.

It's one reason why so many members here don't even respond to your posts anymore. They know better, I should as well.

[xSamhainx]

I wouldnt argue w/ that grouchy old coot unless he insults your mother or something. Just agree to disagree and move on, trust me. If Ive seen it once, Ive seen in a million times. Your time is better spent exploring some Dwemer ruins or soemthing

I think Relayer summed it up quite well when he said:

Now I totally understand those who feel the game is "dead" because some would rather play than read in a game but you could still play the game and get the gist of the politics and social issues in the region and gameworld without reading the in-game books. The great thing about Morrowind IF YOU WERE PAYING ATTENTION is how lore is interwoven pretty solidly between sidequests, the main quest, dialogue, the books and the stuff in the expansion pack.


MW really was, to me, a game that ultimately gave back what I was willing to invest into it. Running around clicking past quest text will not cut it. I had to read the books, pay attention to dialogue instead of just clicking thru, check everything out in the game, getting into the politics, the religion, the culture itself as well as the physical world. I spent days of game time just exploring. I thought overall it was interesting, well written, and fun world to explore. That made any gameplay issues fade into obscurity for me. I played thru the game pretty much vanilla ( i tweaked some weak armor around a little becuase I liked the look) twice, and on my second run I was still uncovering lore, locations, NPCS, etc. I'm sorry, I cant look at a game that rich and think of it as anything but an RPG masterpiece.

Just loaded up the STEAM goty edition, installed the toolset off the disk, and am perusing which mods to install… i played the game thru twice vanilla, this time I'm going on a mod-fest. Thanks again for this great article Vox. This is definitely one of those games that needs to be revisted now and again.

[DArtagnan]

What's funny, and sad, is that I think you really believe the flaw is always with the other person.

It's one reason why so many members here don't even respond to your posts anymore. They know better, I should as well.

I should have known better as well, so that particular flaw is common enough :)

As for why people don't always respond to me, there are many reasons. Some even very good and understandable.

It's a bit tasteless to draw others into this, like you're constantly doing, but then - that's just another aspect of what you really are ;)

[xSamhainx]

A nice texture pack that really improves the look of things without need for plugins or anything crazy is Morrowind Visual Theme pack (http://elderscrolls.filefront.com/file/Morrowind_Visual_Pack_Combined;56241). Unzip into your textures folder and youre done.

Just using that, Better Bodies (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=mods.detail&id=213), Better Clothes (http://www.psychodogstudios.com/betterclothes/), and Vvardenfell Visages (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=mods.detail&id=5883) have the game looking 100% better, with bit more of a modern presentation. The screenshots dont do them much justice, i found that loading each one then loading a saved game really showed me the difference more than anything. You'll also want to get in and tinker w/ your morrowind.ini settings as well

[DeepO]

Morrowind Visual Theme pack (http://elderscrolls.filefront.com/file/Morrowind_Visual_Pack_Combined;56241). Unzip into your textures folder and youre done.
I know you probably didn´t mean that literally, but if you´d do literally just this, nothing would show in your game.
It´s always best to unzip the mod somewhere else first, check the readme if there are any optional/alternative parts etc, and only than copy contents appropriately. You never know how the zip is structured. Most retexturing mods preserve the game´s folder structure, which means that after unzipping you get "textures" folder, sometimes "icon" folder and such. Then you just drag/copy these folders into "Data Files" and say "yes" to overwrite.

Anyway, good recommendations.
Vvardenfell Visages in particular - there are many head replacing mods but this one is by far and wide the best, it honors the setting and doesn´t come with stupidly modernized/emo hair.
Visual Pack is a great base retex on which others can be added (Connary´s textures especially).

[Voxclamant]

xSamhainx said: A nice texture pack that really improves the look of things without need for plugins or anything crazy is Morrowind Visual Theme pack.


Thamks for the idea. I missed that one. Bemushroomed mentioned another good-sounding graphics mod at the start of this thread. I will look at both.


Oh, and people starting with mods for the first time, DeepO is spot on. xxxxxxxxxxx.... <-- idiotic line deleted due to author brainfart!!!!! (Answered in my reply to DepO 2-3 posts down)

[DeepO]

Investing in OMM (Iblivion Mod Manager) and BOSS (a mod sorter) is almost critical to handle the load order and identify missing required mods.
Oblivion Mod Manager and BOSS are for Oblivion though :).

For Morrowind, Wrye Mash (http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=27588) and Mlox (http://code.google.com/p/mlox/wiki/Mlox) are the essential tools.
Using both together solves most of the problems related to mod installations.

Wrye Mash can "update masters" for mods which were created using different versions of the game you have, thus gets rid of the usual warning messages at the start up and, even more importantly, it merges leveled lists for mods that are using them so that creatures and items from them can properly show up.

Mlox sorts the load order and offers warnings/recommendations for conflicting mods or missing requirements.

Many (most?) mods require other base mods to work correctly.

No actually. Everything you need is usually within the mod´s package, other requirements are only occasional.
For what it´s worth, the reason for using Visual Pack as a base is that since majority of texture mods replace only selected parts, installing them on vanilla game would result in glaring transitions between hi-res added by a mod and low-res vanilla.

[skavenhorde]

Nice article.

It is really a matter of taste which mods one installs.

A few months ago I used this guide (http://morrowind2009.wordpress.com/) to install some mods.

I mostly installed bug fixes, new models, grass mods.

I want to thank you and cuss you out at the same time because that guide was perfect. It was so good that I HAD to install Morrowind again and give it another go. One of my biggest problems would be that I would load too many mods and end up messing the game up. This guide made it so I wouldn't have to second guess myself on what would work and wouldn't work together.

Sooooo 2 days later I'm finally done installing all those mods, plus figuring out Wyre mash, MGE, MW_FPS, MPM, MGEgui and a few other utilities I know I'm forgetting. Of course I had to also scour TESnexus for anything else that looks good.

So now I'm done and this sucker looks better than Oblivion. I'm already very impressed with The LGNPC Project (http://www.lgnpc.org/). Seyda Neen is about a thousand times more interesting this time. I'm looking forward to seeing what the other cities have to offer. Plus Silgrad's Tower (http://oblivion.silgrad.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=29&Itemid=45), Tamreil Rebuilt (http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/) and Annastiav (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=mods.detail&id=856)sound a lot more interesting than the snooze fest I played in the Vanilla version.

Oh for gameplay I added Wakim's Game Improvements (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=1277), Morrowind Economy Adjuster (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?id=5380&view=Mods.Detail) and Necessities of Morrowind (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=mods.detail&id=3027). Those are a must in any replays of Morrowind. Makes the game ten times more difficult, but at least it's interesting.

I've never tried out these two before, but added them because they look fun: Pearls Enhanced (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=6991)(don't use Economy Adjuster Ingredients with this one) and Morrowind Crafting (http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=4077). I love the herbalism mod (http://www.mwmythicmods.com/mage.htm#41) and usually use it every time, but I was too afraid that it would mess up crafting/pearls enhanced.

Thanks again for posting that site. It made it a lot easier this time around even though it still took FOREVER!!!:shakefist:

[Voxclamant]

DeepO said: Oblivion Mod Manager and BOSS are for Oblivion though .


OMGoodness!!!!! My senility has kicked in again!!!!!!!

I am writing a piece on Oblivion right now and had a brainfart. Thanks for the catch, DeepO.

[Thrasher]

MW really was, to me, a game that ultimately gave back what I was willing to invest into it. Running around clicking past quest text will not cut it. I had to read the books, pay attention to dialogue instead of just clicking thru, check everything out in the game, getting into the politics, the religion, the culture itself as well as the physical world. I spent days of game time just exploring. I thought overall it was interesting, well written, and fun world to explore. That made any gameplay issues fade into obscurity for me. I played thru the game pretty much vanilla ( i tweaked some weak armor around a little becuase I liked the look) twice, and on my second run I was still uncovering lore, locations, NPCS, etc. I'm sorry, I cant look at a game that rich and think of it as anything but an RPG masterpiece.

Well said, Sammy! :)

[JuliusMagnus]

I spent weeks in Morrowind, but I cannot remember this at all. All I remember is "wikipedia", no dialogue, no cutscenes, and if there was a story in the game I missed it completely. I never finished the game despite the hours I spent. I remember Morrowind feeling like a painting, a beautiful scene with no interactions. I think the lack of dialogue really nailed the coffin for me. There were simply nothing in the came I could care for, no NPC's, no real people, just "signposts". I consider Oblivion a great improvement, but still not a good game.

Ah, it seems you believe that RPGs should be a cinematic experience. That explains also why you find Oblivion better.

Okay, I get that the eccyclopedia dialogue isn't very visceral. But personally I would take that style over Oblivion "dialogue" anyday. There is this thing called immersion, and in a book the things the author describes helps you fill in the blanks for the things he doesn't describe. Combined it paints a mental picture.

Let's say if they used unique dialogue for every NPC, each NPC would probably have only 6 topics to talk about. If you'd give all NPC's a voice, the topics would probably reduced to 1 or 2. Sure, it would be a great experience to read unique dialogure or hear them talk, but NPCs only being able to utter two or six sentences could break immersion even more for me.

Personally I find it great that each NPC can tell me what I can do in town or what dangers are outside the town, give me advice, give tips for adventures, tell me a rumor.

As said, the delivery and execution of 'talking' with the NPCs isn't impressive, but the content of the 'conversations' feels more immersive because it isn't in some lineair loop dialog tree or some two sentence conversation. If a whole town knows there is an Inn in the village, wouldn't it make sense that all NPCs in the town would be able to tell you there is an Inn? (would be even greater if they could point to it like in Outcast). If it was a lineair dialogue tree-like game your adopted father would probably give you a quest to direct you to the Inn of your adoptive uncle in some city where it's never winter. In dialogue tree-like games the only time you would talk with an NPC is when you're directed to do so by another NPC.

[JuliusMagnus]

Just had to comment on your comments about the use of collor:

I have no idea what people are talking about, when they claim it's not generic. I saw AT LEAST 60% of the world - and everything was incredibly bland or brown.

Ah, you like Van Gogh's "Bedroom in Arles", but not Rembrandt's "The Night Watch". IMHO, just because something isn't colorfull doesn't mean it can't be beautiful.


The landscapes did have variety, but within a limited color palette for the most part.

Van Gogh and Rembrandt.

Personally I like the contained variety so Morrowind didn't use the 'ol Videogame trope of containing the trifecta of desert, temperate and arctic landscapes. Sadly, they had to partially negate my point by releasing Bloodmoon.

[DArtagnan]

Ah, you like Van Gogh's "Bedroom in Arles", but not Rembrandt's "The Night Watch". IMHO, just because something isn't colorfull doesn't mean it can't be beautiful.

Of course it can be beautiful, but such things are a matter of taste. FWIW, I think Morrowind is very pretty - but it's awfully bland as an experience. I couldn't "play" a painting, either.

But, it's key to understand that there's no right or wrong here. I'm simply explaining why I, personally, think the game was as I found it.

It's still interesting how people can react so differently to something that I would have thought was pretty universally agreed upon, as in what it takes to make a world come alive - or what makes something feel vibrant or diverse.

Color me wrong ;)

Personally I like the contained variety so Morrowind didn't use the 'ol Videogame trope of containing the trifecta of desert, temperate and arctic landscapes. Sadly, they had to partially negate my point by releasing Bloodmoon.

Oh, it was an interesting premise - and a wonderfully realised environment. It just wasn't for me, just like the Fallout setting isn't for me. I can appreciate the faithfulness to an idea, but the idea has to appeal as well - and it just didn't.

[JemyM]

Ah, it seems you believe that RPGs should be a cinematic experience. That explains also why you find Oblivion better.

No, I just aint an apologetic who struggle to make up excuses for lack of content and feedback to how you choose to play a game.

But personally I would take that style over Oblivion "dialogue" anyday. There is this thing called immersion, and in a book the things the author describes helps you fill in the blanks for the things he doesn't describe. Combined it paints a mental picture.

I rather have bad dialogue than no dialogue. If I want to read a book I read a book.

Personally I find it great that each NPC can tell me what I can do in town or what dangers are outside the town, give me advice, give tips for adventures, tell me a rumor.

Even games like Icewind Dale or Jagged Alliance 2 that was combat oriented, had enough NPC's to reveal this kind of information to you.

[pibbur]

No, I just aint an apologetic who struggle to make up excuses for lack of content and feedback to how you choose to play a game.

Making up excuses for lack of content. Do you claim that this is what we do, we who enjoyed the game and found it to be rich?
…

[Roland]

lvl 4 and still trucking :)

Morrowind Graphics Extender is a god send!!!

That and Better Faces & Better Bods heh

Thanks again for the inspiration, I'm having a ball...sometimes a bit confusing, but a ball nonetheless :)

[JemyM]

Making up excuses for lack of content. Do you claim that this is what we do, we who enjoyed the game and found it to be rich?

As far as I concern, JuliusMagnus was apologetic in his reasoning when he begun rationalize the games shortcomings as a good thing. As comparison, I enjoyed Gothic 3 very much, but I do so without ever trying to ignore the games flaws or claim the flaws were a good thing.

I played Morrowind for weeks and finished every quest/sidecontent in Oblivion, but you might know by now that my time spent in a game doesn't mean I enjoy it. To me, playing some games is as much of a study or research as it is entertainment. Thus I spent 52 hours with Far Cry 2 and recently finished Gothic 3: Forsaken Gods.

Morrowind, Oblivion, Forsaken Gods, Far Cry 2 and Star Wars Galaxies have made me understand that large space doesn't equal large on content. If you create a randomized, computer generated world, you will quickly begin to see the same over and over again, regardless how large you make the map. This make a game feel hollow, empty, lifeless.

Games like Gothic 3, Fallout 2 and Arcanum weren't only large, each place were handcrafted with it's own distinct story that could be resolved the way the player wanted.

Now Oblivion is a bit different, since it actually had the same design; area-specific content. However, if you simply take the quest journal and compare them between Oblivion, Gothic 3, Fallout 2 and Arcanum, you will see that Oblivions quest journal is paper thin. Including all faction-quests in the game (you can join and complete all four and it will not change the world a bit) you end up with only a fraction of the amount of quests the other games had.

Then there's the thing about people. Why do I remember specific details about Minsc 12 years later, but cannot remember a single NPC from Oblivion and Morrowind except Picard and the orc who couldn't speak? Probably because because of how well designed and unique the characters in the Black Isle games were, and also that you actually spend a lot of time with them during the story. You grow to like or hate the characters and if you dedicate time to it you can unlock their own unique tale. A companion story in those games were often deeper and more memorable than what other games have as their main story. I am not much of a social person, but people intrigue me. Even when controlled by an AI, I think people are important to give value to what I do and make me feel like I am playing in a living world. What Oblivion and Morrowind had in common was a severe lack of memorable NPC's and companions.

And I do remember, and care, for Gorn, Diego, Lester and Milten.

Even after spending some time thinking, I remember glimpses of a few more people in Oblivion, but I simply can't remember a single NPC in Morrowind beyond the merchant with 5000 gold and the guard in the tutorial.

[Dez]

I'm one of those who couldn't stand morrowind first time around. See I played gothic 1 prior Morrowind. So I was foolishly expecting same level of interactivity. Sadly vanilla mw felt quite static compared to awesome Gothic 1. So this first image pushed me away.

However after time went by, I began to think that maybe i never gave it a fair chance. Maybe I should have tried downloading some of those mods too. So I entered Morrowind once again. I downloaded couple of mods. I wanted to improve graphics, gameplay and fix some of the annoyances and glitches. Also I download 2 or 3 mods that improved the npc behaviour, added more life to town and more trafic to the empty wilderness and so forth.

To put long story short, the epicness and richness of morrowind captured my soul.
I loved how magically every aspect came together. The exploring is the key word. Morrowind culture, history, nature and tradition are just so darn unique. The gameworld is very coherent. It may not be the most interactive gameworld, but it is certainly one of the most detailed ones I've experienced. And there are dozens of mods that can improve the wooden npcs for example.

And there are so many quests. Mainquest and faction related questlines are in fact quite intresting. Playing morrowind is like reading an interactive novel. If you don't bother to read those in game books, storyline can leave you somewhat unsatisfied.

Regarding the article..While the directions to specific places are quite vague and thus at some point you begin to question your own sanity, at the end of day I wouldn't like to modernize it. The whole automap feauture in oblvion for example really watered down the exploration aspect entirely. I have had so much fun straying from the known path. For instance while I was trying to find some legion quest related dwemer ruin, I accidently stepped into vampire clan lair. :)

edit: Morrowind is not the best games I've played, but its not the worst either. Morrowind has odd charm that allows me to overlook it's flaws. Naturally I'm playing heavily modded morrowind. Vanilla game is a whole different matter.

[skavenhorde]

If there is anyone out there who has Nvidia's 3d glasses I HIGHLY recommend you try them out with Morrowind. I did yesterday and it was the most incredible 3d experience I've had to date. No other game I've played with these glasses has come close to being this good.

First, load all your favorite mods that enhance the graphics and then play the game. The world will literally pop out at you. I went up to a table and it felt like I could reach out my hand and pick up the jug on it. This game is even better than some 3D movies I've seen. It's as close to virtual reality I've ever come across. That includes Fallout 3 which was pretty awesome, but it never had the screen pop out at me like it did for Morrowind.

On the normal depth setting the world was amazing, but then I pumped it up the max (normally this causes all kinds of weird problems) and the world came alive. On max you can't get too close to anything or you'll get double vision, but traveling around outside was amazing. I spent an hour just walking around this world. I was not even playing the game. I just walked around admiring the scenery.

I know there aren't too many people who do have the glasses, but if you do try it out. I promise you you'll be amazed at how real the world feels.

[Voxclamant]

If there is anyone out there who has Nvidia's 3d glasses I HIGHLY recommend you try them out with Morrowind.

Wow Skaven -- I would never have even thought to try that. You just gave me the incentive I needed to get off my butt and invest in a pair.

Thanks!

[skavenhorde]

It's a bit pricey, but well worth the investment if you want a new experience. Not all games perform that well with the glasses, but enough of them do that it made it well worth the money.

I did quite a bit of research before buying this and if I can give you a word of advice stay away from the cheaper Acer GD245HQ monitor (http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MO-049-AC). From all the reviews I read it is worth the extra hundred dollars to invest in the Samsung Syncmaster 2233RZ (http://www.pcmonitors.org/monitor-reviews/samsung-syncmaster-2233rz) monitor. The 3d is great and the 2d quality is better on the syncmaster than it is on the Acer product.

They have a bundle set (http://store.nvidia.com/store/nvidia/en_US/pd/productID.111286400) that is a little cheaper to buy than getting each product individually. They offer the bundle set for either the Samsung or Acer monitor.

Take my advice with a grain of salt. I'm by far no expert in technical matters. I've just read a lot of different reviews and came to the conclusion that if I'm going to spend that much money on something then one more hundred dollars won't matter much in the end. I can tell you from experience that the Samsung monitor works wonderfully in both 3d and 2d gaming.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I've never seen one person try so hard to convince everyone else that their opinion must be wrong. :)

I agree, kind of, that's why I'm not following this discussion anymore. ;)

Edit : Just wanted to add that forum member Sorcha Ravenlock has a few Mods for Morrowind as well - I have installed her two shops, and manually translated (I hope) everything of them into my own language.

But I don't really know how to extract this translation again to make it available for others.

And then I ran into some kind of Mod issue which I haven't solved yet.

[Aletys]

I've Googled, searched TES sites, no luck. Anyone know where to find it?
- Improved Signs (dxm_metallic_signs)

[bemushroomed]

First hit on google.. http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?id=3015&view=OblivionMods.Detail

Like i said earlier TES is generally not recommended for Morrowind mods, PES is what most modders use :) ElricM is good too : http://www.elricm.com/nuke/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=viewdownload&cid=4

Edit: doh, the above was improved signs for Oblivion not MW. Signy Signposts is good though: http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=7951

[Aletys]

Thank you! ... ElricM's site had it. :)

[JuliusMagnus]

As far as I concern, JuliusMagnus was apologetic in his reasoning when he begun rationalize the games shortcomings as a good thing. As comparison, I enjoyed Gothic 3 very much, but I do so without ever trying to ignore the games flaws or claim the flaws were a good thing.

I played Morrowind for weeks and finished every quest/sidecontent in Oblivion, but you might know by now that my time spent in a game doesn't mean I enjoy it. To me, playing some games is as much of a study or research as it is entertainment. Thus I spent 52 hours with Far Cry 2 and recently finished Gothic 3: Forsaken Gods.

Morrowind, Oblivion, Forsaken Gods, Far Cry 2 and Star Wars Galaxies have made me understand that large space doesn't equal large on content. If you create a randomized, computer generated world, you will quickly begin to see the same over and over again, regardless how large you make the map. This make a game feel hollow, empty, lifeless.

Games like Gothic 3, Fallout 2 and Arcanum weren't only large, each place were handcrafted with it's own distinct story that could be resolved the way the player wanted.

Now Oblivion is a bit different, since it actually had the same design; area-specific content. However, if you simply take the quest journal and compare them between Oblivion, Gothic 3, Fallout 2 and Arcanum, you will see that Oblivions quest journal is paper thin. Including all faction-quests in the game (you can join and complete all four and it will not change the world a bit) you end up with only a fraction of the amount of quests the other games had.

Then there's the thing about people. Why do I remember specific details about Minsc 12 years later, but cannot remember a single NPC from Oblivion and Morrowind except Picard and the orc who couldn't speak? Probably because because of how well designed and unique the characters in the Black Isle games were, and also that you actually spend a lot of time with them during the story. You grow to like or hate the characters and if you dedicate time to it you can unlock their own unique tale. A companion story in those games were often deeper and more memorable than what other games have as their main story. I am not much of a social person, but people intrigue me. Even when controlled by an AI, I think people are important to give value to what I do and make me feel like I am playing in a living world. What Oblivion and Morrowind had in common was a severe lack of memorable NPC's and companions.

And I do remember, and care, for Gorn, Diego, Lester and Milten.

Even after spending some time thinking, I remember glimpses of a few more people in Oblivion, but I simply can't remember a single NPC in Morrowind beyond the merchant with 5000 gold and the guard in the tutorial.

I can not remember one building, landscape or cultural feature from the Gothics or Risen that feels unique. I wouldn't really care if the islands and landmass from the game sunk and were never heard from again.

But with Morrowinds depiction of a whole culture, I really came to appreciate the Dunmer and their various Cultures and Religions. So I'm sad that in the lore of the next Elder Scrolls the whole Morrowind Province is flooded.

I guess the importance of the games is seen even in how the sequels are made. Gothic relies on the same main character with alot of the same supporting characters expanding the landmass each time. Taking place several months after the previous game.

TES uses a new main character, a new locale, several decades later. Even if they went back to the same province, most characters from the first game would be retired or dead. The only thing that remains is the lore build-up in the previous game which adds to the backstory of the new game.

I bet I can make a pretty acurate mental map of Vvardefell, but I'd be hard pressed to do it with the island from Gothic. I'm not saying no-one could, but the Gothic island didn't impress me in such a way that my brain found it worthwile to remember. See, I even don't remember the name, but I bet you would.

Gnisis probably doesn't mean anything to you but it is a town in my favorite part of the West Gash with all it's twisting and turning paths and rock arches.

[JDR13]

I'm sad that in the lore of the next Elder Scrolls the whole Morrowind Province is flooded.


I don't remember hearing about that. Was it mentioned in Oblivion?

[xSamhainx]

It all depends on what youre looking for in an RPG. Some people are all about love interests, the laughs, and tears, some are more about your role in the big picture and the "big picture" itself.

The star of Morrowind is not some cast of NPCs that you drag around, the star of Morrowind is the world and culture as a whole. It's a single-player non-party RPG, and as such, youre not spoon-fed a cast of wacky characters to form virtual relationships with. No, Morrowind takes a little more effort on your part then just having it all served up to you by an NPC you cant avoid. Reading books such as Ancestors and the Dunmer (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Ancestors_and_the_Dunmer), you come to realize what those little graphical elements and references in the game really mean, and the world begins to open up. Everyone's read Brothers of Darkness (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The_Brothers_of_Darkness) when youve been persued by the Dark Bortherhood, but have you read The House of Troubles (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The_House_of_Troubles) and learned about the dark spirits that all those Daedric Shrines are dedicated to?

Chimer are mentioned in that last text, what are they? Theyre the ancient Dunmer, before the Daedra Azura's curse turned their skin dark, and eyes red. Her curse was brought down on the elves for the supposed murder of the Indoril Lord Neravar (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Nerevar) by the Tribunal of Almalexia/Vivec/Sotha Sil. You are the reincarnation of this being in the game.

It's possible for you to just run around looting shrines, killing everything in sight, grabbing the next quest item, and delivering it to the right person. Get the tools, sever the heart, kill the main bad guy and youre done. Youre not seeing the forest thru the trees however, when it comes to the real role-playing experience in the world of Morrowind.

[JDR13]

Damn it Sammy, I just spent an hour lost in Elder Scrolls Wiki because of you.

[Thrasher]

Well put Sammy. :)

[xSamhainx]

Damn it Sammy, I just spent an hour lost in Elder Scrolls Wiki because of you.

No kidding, one thing leads to another and before long i feel like trying to get Daggerfall going again just so I can start from the very start!

wait that's Arena. I dont know if I can go back that far tho ='.'=

[JDR13]

I know what you mean, I would love to take a crack at Daggerfall someday, especially if that guy actually finishes his DaggerXL (http://daggerxl.wordpress.com/) project.

Forget about Arena though, I tried playing that about 5-6 years ago, and it was way too dated for me.

[JemyM]

I have waited for two years for that guy to finish his DarkXL project. :P

[JemyM]

It's a single-player non-party RPG, and as such, youre not spoon-fed a cast of wacky characters to form virtual relationships with. No, Morrowind takes a little more effort on your part then just having it all served up to you by an NPC you cant avoid.

Which is exactly why I feel that Morrowind is empty and why I feel so alone.

It's an individuals opinions that makes them feel alive in my book. When you engage in a social universe you are indeed spoonfed people you cannot avoid, with opinions different than your own, of which you must navigate in order to get along.

Clean out the "wacky people", remove the "in-your-face" interractions, allow you the opportunity to avoid every awkward unwanted encounter, and all you have left is desolated wasteland, artificial papercut backdrops without meaning, without purpose, without soul.

It's not my task to give purpose to the artists creation or try to find meaning where none is intended, to fill holes that was created out of ignorance rather than out of purpose. That is what apologetics do.

Reading books such as

Or drop the game, go down to the local library and explore the mysteries of the intellectual history of the western Civilization, that I promise is both deeper and more thoughtworthy. Just do not get too lost, in this universe there are people who actually cares for you and your opinions.

[GhanBuriGhan]

Or drop the game, go down to the local library and explore the mysteries of the intellectual history of the western Civilization, that I promise is both deeper and more thoughtworthy. Just do not get too lost, in this universe there are people who actually cares for you and your opinions.

That is true of all gaming. We do it anyway, don't we?

[JemyM]

My post came out as unneccessary bitter, harsh and exaggerated and I apologize for it. Can't edit it on my mobile. Take it with a grain of salt.

[JemyM]

That is true of all gaming. We do it anyway, don't we?

I guess we all play because we get something out of it. What we gain is different from people to people. I try more and more to not judge people for enjoying what I do not.

I personally like social interactions, deep and complex characters and moral challenges. Of course Morrowind offered me very little of that so it wasn't my kind of game. I love the party in games like Dragon Age. Yes, you are stuck with your party, just like you are stuck within small boxed in maps in Deus Ex. The box is a platform for the challenges that are a part of the game, in the case of games like DA:O they are social challenges, in Deus Ex it's about getting from A to B. You just can't skip the box.

The above post tried to be apologetic to Morrowind by deevaluing precisely the content I enjoy the most (party). My reaction became a counterdevaluation.

[JDR13]

The above post tried to be apologetic to Morrowind by deevaluing precisely the content I enjoy the most (party). My reaction became a counterdevaluation.


I don't see his post as being "apologetic" at all. I think that's just your interpretation of it due to the fact that he enjoyed the game and you didn't.

Must a person be labeled apologetic every time they talk about the reasons why they like something? I think not.

[JemyM]

I don't see his post as being "apologetic" at all. I think that's just your interpretation of it due to the fact that he enjoyed the game and you didn't.
Must a person be labeled apologetic every time they talk about the reasons why they like something? I think not.I use the term "apologetic" to describe the will to add meaning that isn't neccessary there, evident or by design. Especially when the most intutive analysis would make the conclusion that something is bad, broken, stupid or unintended. If I say I like boars in vanilla Gothic 3 because they were challenging I would be apologetic. They are hard due to broken AI, not by design. I still like them, but I wouldn't use it as a defense for unexcuseable broken code.

I personally put value on presentation. I do not think lack of presentation can be excused. Text is the cheapest form of presentation. Presentation includes introduction to the player, information about whats going on and feedback to their actions. The way Morrowind is described above remind me of a museum. A non-interactive display with a sign next to it you can read for more info. If I prefer non-interactivity I could go for a book.

[DArtagnan]

I use the term "apologetic" to describe the will to add meaning that isn't neccessary there, evident or by design. If I say I like boars in vanilla Gothic 3 because they were challenging I would be apologetic. They are hard due to broken AI, not by design. I still like them, but I wouldn't use it as a defense for unexcuseable broken code.

What a black and white world you live in ;)

You don't have to actually be apologetic if you like something that others don't like. Not even if it's universally despised.

The concept of being apologetic comes into play, if you WILLFULLY ignore or excuse significant flaws - because you WANT to enjoy something.

That may or may not be the case with fans of Morrowind - but only someone truly arrogant would claim it to be the case, with certainty.

That said, I do agree that you have to use your imagination quite a bit to enjoy Morrowind, from where I'm sitting. Nothing wrong with that - but since I'm not really what you'd call big on imagination, I definitely prefer a game to show and tell - rather than have me pretend or "do the work" for the game.

That's also why I'm not a big reader.

Morrowind is clearly a game that appeals to the sort of person who can immerse himself into written lore, and relatively static environments.

[GhanBuriGhan]

JemyM, I guess, for some people, MW falls into a certain bracket of interactive and non-interactive content that feels comfortable.
The if-I-want-non-interactive-I-can-read-books argument doesn't really make sense to me in the context. Its not like MW is only books, they are merely an important device to transport backstory in game. Its the combined effect of the interactive and this non-interactive content that makes the game special to me, not the books by themselves.
I am a scientist by nature, I like to explore and probe my virtual worlds, and like it when they hold up to scrutiny - its part of what makes them "real" to me. Both dialog and in-game text and a coherent and cross-referential design of the world itself contribute to that effect. MW did it well through books, lore topics in dialog and a relatively coherent world design. There is soul in that as well, if you are susceptible to it. MW was poor in the mechanics and actual flavor of dialog and NPC interaction, that could add even more for that purpose as well, no doubt. Gothic or Bioware games, e.g. are pretty good at the latter, but don't allow you to scrutinize history, backstory, religion through books much or at all.

Maybe a book can serve as illustration as well. The story of Frodo is nice, and having him come alive through dialog and exposition is an important element to draw you into the story. But the WORLD comes alive because you can sense the enormous body of legend, stories, language and mythology that Tolkien had made up long before he set down to write this particular story. The former is necessary to allow me to read and enjoy the story, the latter is necessary to make it great, at least for me.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

The if-I-want-non-interactive-I-can-read-books argument doesn't really make sense to me in the context.

There *are* "interactive books" out there, by the way.

But the WORLD comes alive because you can sense the enormous body of legend, stories, language and mythology that Tolkien had made up long before he set down to write this particular story. The former is necessary to allow me to read and enjoy the story, the latter is necessary to make it great, at least for me.

Well said, this is how I see it myself, too.

[DArtagnan]

Maybe a book can serve as illustration as well. The story of Frodo is nice, and having him come alive through dialog and exposition is an important element to draw you into the story. But the WORLD comes alive because you can sense the enormous body of legend, stories, language and mythology that Tolkien had made up long before he set down to write this particular story. The former is necessary to allow me to read and enjoy the story, the latter is necessary to make it great, at least for me.

Yeah, that's true enough.

But we must remember that we're talking games vs. books here.

I think games can draw from all kinds of sources, and books/movies are great for several things.

In my opinion, though, games are only great games when they truly utilise the strengths of that specific medium.

That's why I don't care too much for modern Bioware games, and that's also why I don't care too much for Morrowind. I think Bioware games are movies, and I think of Morrowind very much as an interactive book - with horrible game mechanics.

Gothic, on the other hand, is a strong game - because it uses the "gaming-specific" stuff brilliantly. It simulates a world with a lot of interaction, and it succeeds in making the world feel alive - and the story is presented through the "moving" world itself - as well as spoken dialogue. As someone mentioned - Morrowind is almost like a beautiful painting - and as such, it feels pretty dead to me.

All that is subjective, of course - but I really don't see Morrowind as a particularly good example of utilising the strengths of the medium.

However, with that said, it was awesome in its initial presentation. I was VERY impressed for the first couple of hours, playing it. Definitely the best looking game of its time. Unfortunately, it didn't live up to that impression at all.

[Tragos]

Truth is that all modes released aiming at making MW more alive changed the world so much that it didn't felt like MW any longer .
Adding travellers/text was okay but extra monsters outside the lore was bliah.

MW's combat is as crap as in Gothic but spell making can be very creative , also the exploration rewards both in gear and in knowledge kept you going .

[DeepO]

Truth is that all modes released aiming at making MW more alive changed the world so much that it didn't felt like MW any longer. Adding travellers/text was okay but extra monsters outside the lore was bliah.
No, that is not truth. You just have to be selective if you want to have your modded Morrowind lore friendly and in a good shape.
For example, if your basic enlivening combo is Morrowind Comes Alive + Giants, then yes, verisimilitude goes out of the window and your game will become likely broken in other departments as well.
If you go with Starfire´s NPC Additions + Creatures X though, the game remains intact, just enhanced.
The only truth here is, there´s a shitload of mods for the game.


MW's combat is as crap as in Gothic
A solid material for another multi-page thread :).

[JemyM]

The concept of being apologetic comes into play, if you WILLFULLY ignore or excuse significant flaws - because you WANT to enjoy something.

Like the Gothic 3 boars? :)

[DArtagnan]

Like the Gothic 3 boars? :)

I haven't met anyone saying they liked them, yet :)

[xSamhainx]

Or drop the game, go down to the local library and explore the mysteries of the intellectual history of the western Civilization, that I promise is both deeper and more thoughtworthy. Just do not get too lost, in this universe there are people who actually cares for you and your opinions.

In your case then, drop the game, go out and explore real people and relationships instead of making friends with a bunch of NPCS. I promise you, they are (at least most have the potential to be) a lot more deep and thoughtworthy than Minsc. You can look at it either way Jemy, we'll just have to agree to disagree on what actually constitutes rich, quality content and a fun experience when it comes to an RPG.

I'm going to go play MW now ='.'=

[Tragos]

Someone must release a self extracting mod pack with script extender , the view distance thing , seasons etc etc . I always say "meh i am not going to play it again" and end up re-downloading a gazillion mods .

[JemyM]

In your case then, drop the game, go out and explore real people and relationships instead of making friends with a bunch of NPCS. I promise you, they are (at least most have the potential to be) a lot more deep and thoughtworthy than Minsc. You can look at it either way Jemy, we'll just have to agree to disagree on what actually constitutes rich, quality content and a fun experience when it comes to an RPG.

I'm going to go play MW now ='.'=

Yeah, I saw this coming and I already apologized for my comment.