Drakensang Online - Interview, "Too few people bought Drakensang"

[Dhruin]

German site Buffed.de has an interview with Bernd Beyreuther (http://www.buffed.de/buffed/features/6679/Drakensang-Online-Interview-mit-Bernd-Beyreuther-Christian-Godorr), former head of Radon Labs and now at Bigpoint. While we have limited interest in Drakensang Online, the article says that Drakensang: The River of Time just didn't sell despite the good reviews and that better sales would have saved Radon Labs (Google translation here (http://translate.google.com.au/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.buffed.de%2Fbuffed%2F features%2F6679%2FDrakensang-Online-Interview-mit-Bernd-Beyreuther-Christian-Godorr&sl=de&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8)). On Drakensang Online, he says they've been able to get the Drakensang engine working within a browser, which certainly sounds interesting.
Thanks, Alrik!
More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=15612)

[Thrasher]

Is he talking about domestic sales in Germany or International? If he's including international, then perhaps an English translation would have made up the difference?

[JDR13]

Does this mean that River of Time will probably never get an English translation?

[getter77]

Well, perhaps thankfully I seem to have been half right on them going for a modern browser engine for Drakensang Online as opposed to some sort of stark regression---though I certainly didn't expect it to be the EXISTING engine. Either they had some uncanny foresight on that one, or lucked out in terms of skillful folk and initial composition in order to swing such a conversion.

This doesn't make me hopeful for River of Time and such though. :(

Will the world ever come to know a proper P&P sourced videogame dynasty not wrought with missteps, bankruptcies, and just out and out boneheaded moves? I feel like it is going to take one or more Indie outfits, or even freeware/OSS folks, taking a shine to one that never made it big, some diamond in the rough, and running fullsteam with an adaptation fit for doings.

[gumbomasta]

Is talking about domestic sales in Germany or International? If he's including international, then perhaps an English translation would have made up the difference?

What were they expecting? They didn't promote the first Drakensang that well, and then they didn't release the second one in English. Were they daft?

I'm still gonna have to get the German version and translate it with an unofficial English patch. If anyone knows where to get a good one, enlighten me.

-g

[Gorath]

Is talking about domestic sales in Germany or International? If he's including international, then perhaps an English translation would have made up the difference?

He's talking about German sales. RoT went straight to the #1 spot and then quickly ran out of steam. Sales numbers were disappointing.


Does this mean that River of Time will probably never get an English translation?
They don't have a publisher. dtp is a local company. They can't publish their games in other markets without a partner. All they could do is Steam, etc., and I wonder why they haven't tried this yet. They have the same problem for Venetica.

[Gorath]

What were they expecting? They didn't promote the first Drakensang that well, and then they didn't release the second one in English. Were they daft?

It wasn't their job. Radon Labs develops. dtp promotes the German version. The international partners promote the international versions - unless they don't. I guess CD Projekt in Poland was the only international publisher really behind it.

And obviously there cannot be an English retail release without a publisher or distributor.

[Dhruin]

Technically correct, I'm sure. Net result: failure. Spending almost nothing maintaining an English website and sending out a few English PR's might have created some international awareness they might have leveraged into an international deal. I get PRs from dtp pretty regularly on their point-and-click adventure games, so I know someone is capable of writing an English press release.

[petardo]

What a pity! I can't understand why they complain about low sales when there is no English version of River of Time!!! Paradoxically, this game is one of the best translated and dubbed into Spanish which is very rare because here, in Spain, few games are dubbed and some even have awful translations.

It's very sad. I played River of Time and I finished it, and IMO it is the best RPG party based RPG after Baldur's Gate, much better than Drakensang I and of course DAO. Perhaps that was the problem, Drakensang was disappointing and soon eclipsed by DAO so very few people have taken into consideration its sequel, even despite of the good reviews.

[Sir_Brennus]

I don't think an international release woud've changed a bit. The DSA licence is big in DACH and BeNeLux countries. The game has to make its money there. An international release only produces costs (localisation and marketing) and needs an international publisher that takes the majority of the sales income. And especially overseas a success is not guaranteed. The DraSa series would've never been anything more than a niche product similar to the Gothic games, because it is too "special interest", too european. And you simply can't afford to compete with the marketing monsters that Bioware and Bethesda are.

That said I am at a loss why River of Time failed commercially in Europe. I even bought the personal edition for an insane amount of money and I thought these editions sold well.

A sad thing indeed.

[KasperFauerby]

A real shame that german developers always develop their games in the german language. Especially since I tend to like games from Germany quite a lot.

[bemushroomed]

A real shame that german developers always develop their games in the german language. Especially since I tend to like games from Germany quite a lot.

Yes, there are many german and russian mods and games that are really incredible and that people from other countries never get to enjoy. Such a tremendous waste! As a developer it must feel bad too, to paint yourself into a tiny corner like that..

[DArtagnan]

Yup, I never understood that kind of thing - but apparently, people think it's a good idea to isolate themselves and cling to something as pointless as a local language.

[noctrun]

The problem of River of Time is simply that it would have been better of being a addon to Drakensang, as they originally planned. The advancements would really have improved that game. The things like fast traveling and revisitable locations would have made it a must have for everyone with a copy of Drakensang. My main complaint about the River of Time is that the player character is not part of the main story; as that is the backstory of three Drakensang characters and feels like the second half of a tie-in novel the the first game.
He's talking about German sales. RoT went straight to the #1 spot and then quickly ran out of steam. Sales numbers were disappointing.

Are you sure he's is only talking about German sales? I remember Beyreuther saying prior to the release of the first Drakensang game that the game "must work internationally".
They don't have a publisher. dtp is a local company. They can't publish their games in other markets without a partner. All they could do is Steam, etc., and I wonder why they haven't tried this yet. They have the same problem for Venetica.
Well as far as I can see The River of Time is released in the regions/languages where the publisher of Drakensang picked it up. E.g. the countries where THQ or Eidos released the first game are still waiting for the game, as those companies will not be acting as publisher this time.
Yup, I never understood that kind of thing - but apparently, people think it's a good idea to isolate themselves and cling to something as pointless as a local language.
Well than go back in time to when human language first split up, and make sure all languages develop into English. Good luck with that. ;)

[DArtagnan]

Well than go back in time to when human language first split up, and make sure all languages develop into English. Good luck with that. ;)

I don't really care what language we use, and I'd be more than willing to learn whatever we'd pick as a universal language.

Going back in time doesn't really strike me as the way to go about this.

I think waiting a few hundred years until people start being less moronic, should do the trick ;)

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Yup, I never understood that kind of thing - but apparently, people think it's a good idea to isolate themselves and cling to something as pointless as a local language.

I see it differently.

In my theory, putting everything into the English language gives those who have it as their native tongue a slight advantage.

I still believe that the human brain has fewer obstacles in processing the native language than a learned language. Which means, in my opinion, that English-based (as native tongue) programmers have a slight advantage over foreign once (let's say even Greek ones, because Greece has its own set of an Alphabet.


But seriously, the tide might even turn : Chinese language is rapidly growing to be much, much more important in the world … will one day English-based programmers have to program in a programming language that is based on Chinese words ?

[bemushroomed]

I see it differently.

In my theory, putting everything into the English language gives those who have it as their native tongue a slight advantage.

I still believe that the human brain has fewer obstacles in processing the native language than a learned language.

That really depends of how often you speak or use that language. I process english just as fast as swedish, sometimes faster. It really depends on what i'm "processing".

What language the programming language is in is hardly the biggest obstacle to overcome when learning or doing the programming, it's a minor thing really.

Chinese isn't just one language, it's hundreds, that's the problem.. The difference between regions can be as big as two different languages, so i think english makes more sense in a programming language. But again, the language used for the programming isnt the biggest obstacle at all. The pure programming part is also just the initial part of creating a game (often it's not even needed since many developers don't create their own engines). The actual creation process (level design etc) is via graphical editors, so again, language isnt a big deal. Internally they can use whatever language they want (in their editors or the internal programming for the game).

[LuckyCarbon]

I've been hoping to buy it since it was announced, someone really dropped the ball not doing whatever it took to make sure there was an English release. Forget the NA publisher, get it on Steam and/or Impulse yourself. It's not a game that's going to sell well off the shelf anyway, it's a niche game for hardcore gamers, most of whom prefer digital copies already anyway.

Anyway here's hoping (from up on my high horse) we get an English release someday.

[zakhal]

Well atleast they got the spanish market.

[DArtagnan]

Anyone willing to open their eyes and see what we're paying as a world society, because of the language barrier - should realise how insignificant the price of learning a new language would be.

Then again, most people enjoy life better with their eyes closed.

[blatantninja]

This issue really isn't one of culture but rather potential. I can see why they thought doing it in German first made sense, since the license is very popular in Germany, but they really needed to ask themselves of what their best chance of maing the game profitable was. Maybe they felt it was German, but IMO, since the majority of the population that plays Western style RPG's is speaks English as either a first or second language, I can't see why anyone would not try to cast that net as wide as possible.

[DArtagnan]

This issue really isn't one of culture but rather potential. I can see why they thought doing it in German first made sense, since the license is very popular in Germany, but they really needed to ask themselves of what their best chance of maing the game profitable was. Maybe they felt it was German, but IMO, since the majority of the population that plays Western style RPG's is speaks English as either a first or second language, I can't see why anyone would not try to cast that net as wide as possible.

Actually, I think it's very much about culture.

Germans have been focusing on their own language VERY insistently, for a long time. Almost as moronic as the French ;)

I honestly think that's simply how they work over there, and it would be a major undertaking to focus on english first. Not that I understand why, but my guess is that their entire underpinning and infrastructure is set up to work only with their own language.

[LuckyCarbon]

Anyone willing to open their eyes and see what we're paying as a world society, because of the language barrier - should realise how insignificant the price of learning a new language would be.

Then again, most people enjoy life better with their eyes closed.

We're getting there Dart. Thankfully most European countries are teaching English now to all their children, it's the official language of air traffic and the unofficial language of the internet. It's the Chinese I'm worried about, hopefully Hong Kong's influence on their culture can help English grow in the Far East. For better or worse, England's 19th century imperialism and the US' post WWII territory & army bases around the world have helped push us towards a single language.

Here in the US they're really pushing Spanish but that's mostly xenophobia of the Mexican immigrants. Unfortunately I picked French, a lot of good that does me, can't speak to the Mexicans and can't play games only published in German. And before you ask, I'm too old ( and lazy ) to learn another language.

[DArtagnan]

We're getting there Dart. Thankfully most European countries are teaching English now to all their children, it's the official language of air traffic and the unofficial language of the internet. It's the Chinese I'm worried about, hopefully Hong Kong's influence on their culture can help English grow in the Far East. For better or worse, England's 19th century imperialism and the US' post WWII territory & army bases around the world have helped push us towards a single language.

Here in the US they're really pushing Spanish but that's mostly xenophobia of the Mexican immigrants. Unfortunately I picked French, a lot of good that does me, can't speak to the Mexicans and can't play games only published in German. And before you ask, I'm too old ( and lazy ) to learn another language.

I have no desire to learn another language, but you have to sacrifice for the greater good.

Thing is, most people don't see it as an issue - because they don't understand how HUGE a problem it is to not be able to understand one another. It's like they think it's a minor thing.

I guess they've never tried being in a relationship, and saying something wrong to the other person - and that's using the SAME language ;)

Well, assuming men and women hear the same things when words are spoken, which I doubt sometimes ;)

[Ergonpandilus]

I already understand three languages and that will have to do.

If we think about the language issue, then we should see the root of the problem, which is German people who generally speak very bad or no English at all. All the movies are dubbed to German (yuck!) which doesn't help the situation either. Unlike here, where the most people do speak English, even though it's not our native language.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Anyone willing to open their eyes and see what we're paying as a world society, because of the language barrier - should realise how insignificant the price of learning a new language would be.

Then again, most people enjoy life better with their eyes closed.

Here in Germany there are some prejudices.

One of them is that : Americans don't care about the rest of the world. Therefore they do not see any need to learn other languages.

I believe it would be very nationalitic to insist on one's own language. And that is easier, the bigger and the more powerful one's own country is. Talking of domination. Talking of Colonies.

To have only ONE language there would be the ULTIMATE sign of domination over others. Because language = culture. You just can't translate certain words without their cultural meaning included.

You see it any time you see foreign words wandering into science. Geology and Archaeology are FULL of German and Italian words. Music almost CONSISTS of Italien terms.

And now you want that all to be erased in favour to THE ONE LANGUAGE, and that shall of course be English, not Spanish or Portuguese, for example, and that, although the number of speakers with Spanish as their own tongue isn't small either. "But they're inignificant to the power of the English language" you might say and then say that you wouldn't say it, because of course I have taken you totally wrong, which is an easy way to get out of things: Just by saying "You took me wrong. I have nver said that", with an very definitive will to ignore something that is called a CONTEXT.

Dude, you've never been studying at University Geology, Archaeology or Music, just as examples. You've never been studying Maya culture. Someone with eyes so much closed wouldn't have any chance in these areas.

But of course they are irrelevant to this discussion here, as you will soon claim. ("Of course !")

[zakhal]

I guess they've never tried being in a relationship, and saying something wrong to the other person - and that's using the SAME language ;)

Well, assuming men and women hear the same things when words are spoken, which I doubt sometimes ;)

True. And not laughing about it at all.

[DArtagnan]

Alrik, you will never learn to focus on the issue at hand. You will always focus on me as a person, because you don't like me. I probably hurt your feelings at one point, which I never ever intend to do.

I simply speak my mind, with zero intention of hurting others - but I also like to speak plainly and without "covering" things up. You're not the sort of person who responds well to that, and as such you won't ever appreciate what I'm about. You probably think I'm arrogant, because I have faith in my opinions.

I don't blame you for that, and I can assure you - you're not alone.

But, I am what I am.

Just stop interacting with me, and all will be well ;)

[Ergonpandilus]

One of them is that : Americans don't care about the rest of the world. Therefore they do not see any need to learn other languages.

Doesn't the same apply for Germans too?

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Anyone willing to open their eyes and see what we're paying as a world society, because of the language barrier - should realise how insignificant the price of learning a new language would be.

Then again, most people enjoy life better with their eyes closed.

I have no desire to learn another language,

Interesting. Both these statements from the same person.

[zakhal]

Doesn't the same apply for Germans too?

I think it applies to all major lauguages ("Im big so I dont have to care about others"). Those from minor language cultures are then forced to learn all the major ones.

[DArtagnan]

Interesting. Both these statements from the same person.

Did you read the last part of the sentence, after the comma?

Again, you're unable to focus on anything but your dislike for me. That means you can't even read without seeing things in the worst possible light.

That makes you uninteresting in the extreme, and either you stop interacting with me - or you go on ignore. Whatever you prefer.

[Ergonpandilus]

I think it applies to all major lauguages ("Im big so I dont have to care about others"). Those from minor language cultures are then forced to learn all the major ones.

Well, luckily not all, just English usually. :)

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Doesn't the same apply for Germans too?

I can't say, because I'm not the "norm" here. I'm an alien anyway, have always been.

But in my local newspaper of Cologne we get international politics, for example, and nature catastrophies. We we quite well informed about the Russian burning of the woods, that Mr. Putin had not long ago dissolved the agencies which would have been able to fight these wood burnings ... We know about Mrs. Palin bing one of the front figures of the "new conservatives" in the U.S. ... Now the newspapers are filled wih articles about the flood(s) within Pakistan and the chances it gives for Taliban to recruit new people from the masses of people whio are angry against the slow (if at all) re-acting government, which is rather interested in itself than in helping the people out there.

Today's newspaper I have nere (the "Kölner Stadt-Anzeiger" has a sjhort ote about fights within Somalia, Berlusconi talking with the Chief of the "Lega Nord", an assassination on a pipeline in Turkey, 1/3 of a page article about Urane in Moldawia, Iran/Persia testing a new improved missile ... Yes, I think I can say that I'm informed about a few bits here and there, and everyone who regularly reads the newspapers is, too.

[Ergonpandilus]

Okay, I don't want to bash you, but you are our German "representative" here. ;)

So is there a single news site in German that does support more than German only language? And how many films have you seen in English? Are there any in movie theaters without dubbing?

[Gorath]

Technically correct, I'm sure. Net result: failure. Spending almost nothing maintaining an English website and sending out a few English PR's might have created some international awareness they might have leveraged into an international deal. I get PRs from dtp pretty regularly on their point-and-click adventure games, so I know someone is capable of writing an English press release.

Yes, the result is failure. There were a lot of English PRs on Drakensang 1.5 and Divinity 2 early on. Then they got fewer and fewer.
It seems their long term strategy of internationalization through RPGs has failed. As a result they canned Drakensang 2, pulled out of the Divinity 2 add-on and have no other RPGs besides the Venetica PS3 port in the pipeline.

I'm pretty sure it was a bad mistake not to aggressively jump onto the DL bandwagon years ago. The retail market for niche product gets smaller and smaller every year. 9 years ago Gothic already had similar problems.

I don't think an international release woud've changed a bit. The DSA licence is big in DACH and BeNeLux countries. The game has to make its money there. An international release only produces costs (localisation and marketing) and needs an international publisher that takes the majority of the sales income. And especially overseas a success is not guaranteed. The DraSa series would've never been anything more than a niche product similar to the Gothic games, because it is too "special interest", too european. And you simply can't afford to compete with the marketing monsters that Bioware and Bethesda are.

Good point. Somebody needs to invest a 6-digit sum into the loca. Nobody will do this before he has a clear idea how to get his investment back, and something on top.


That said I am at a loss why River of Time failed commercially in Europe. I even bought the personal edition for an insane amount of money and I thought these editions sold well.

A sad thing indeed.

My personal opinion:
RoT had a bad title (too melancholic), and the whole project was misconfigured. They were sitting between the chairs, and marketing was unable to create enough demand. RoT was much too expensive (in development) for an add-on - but many people thought it was only a better add-on, which is of course not true. So either call it "Drakensang 2" and make an expensive game or imply it's a stand-alone add-on and make sure development is cheap and fast. Spending millions on DraSa 1.5 turned out to be a bad idea.


A real shame that german developers always develop their games in the german language.
You overlook that Germans aren't good at speaking or writing in English. Everybody learns the language at school. That's enough to get along, but using it professionally is something different.
Plus, I think, it's a publishing problem. How would they justify the additional costs of developing in a foreign language, especially if it's unclear how or if the product will reach the foreign markets? It's perfectly natural to take the easier money and higher margin in the home market first, if there is no big international partner for a simultaneous release.

The devs who can go for multi-language ASAP. See Crytek (through EA), Blue Byte & Related Design (Ubi daughters), Piranha Bytes (through Koch Media), Spellbound (though JoWooD / Dreamcatcher) and especially all those browser game devs.

edit: Venetica was developed in English first. There is still no English publisher.

[Gorath]

So is there a single news site in German that does support more than German only language? And how many films have you seen in English? Are there any in movie theaters without dubbing?

Spiegel Online has an English edition. Other big newspapers translate a couple of more important articles here and there.

Bigger movie theaters usually show one movie per week in original language with subtitles. That's a service for the allied troops and their families. DVDs usually include English though. But why would the general public be interested to watch a film in English if they can watch it in German?

[Ergonpandilus]

Agree with Gorath.

The major issue is non-existang marketing. And by marketing I mean interviews, international interviews to big gaming magazines or websites. Those generate a lot of hype. But now even the English forum has gone pretty much dead.

Still, if it's already a second game, there shouldn't be any (or that many) issues with international publishing, but it seems to be even more difficult this time.

But why would the general public be interested to watch a film in English if they can watch it in German?

Well, it's really a matter of opinion, but here in Finland nothing is dubbed, excepts kids cartoons etc. And even though there is Finnish dubbing for some animations like Shrek, I still rather have it in original language. But that also works for other movies than English movies, like German movie Stalingrad and Das Boot must be watched in original (German) language. But with subtitles of course. ;)

[bemushroomed]

Dubbing sucks, even translated subtitles sucks most of the time, since many things translates badly into other languages. It's not how the creators has envisioned it. If i want to see a movie i don't want some other douchebags representation of voices or translation of jokes or whatever. As a last resort it's better than nothing though.

[Gorath]

Well, it's really a matter of opinion, but here in Finland nothing is dubbed, excepts kids cartoons etc.
Not really opinion. Culture and market size. The German market is so big that the investment in a loca is generally worth it. The people have gotten used to consuming everything in German.
Small countries get English versions because expensive locas would be economically unfounded.

[skavenhorde]

It's the Chinese I'm worried about, hopefully Hong Kong's influence on their culture can help English grow in the Far East. For better or worse, England's 19th century imperialism and the US' post WWII territory & army bases around the world have helped push us towards a single language.

I wouldn't worry too much about Chinese taking over as the dominant language. Most parents in Taiwan (and China) have their children learn two or even three different languages. They start them off in Kindergarten learning English on top of Mandarin. They even have to pass an English test to get into senior high school. If they fail they have to retake it before they're allowed to go to high school. Seems a bit harsh to me, but there it is.

Chinese isn't just one language, it's hundreds, that's the problem.. The difference between regions can be as big as two different languages, so i think english makes more sense in a programming language.

That is somewhat true, but still a lot of people in China speak Mandarin and it's not like any of the regional languages will ever become dominant. Either people in China will learn both Mandarin and their own language or their regional language will be phased out completely (over many many years of course) As you can see here (http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=125&catid=4&subcatid=16) most of China speaks Mandarin. It's the most widely used language in the world with over 1 billion native and second language speakers. Over here in Taiwan Taiwanese isn't taught in schools. They either pick it up at home or from friends at an early age. I recently read this article (http://www.pinyin.info/readings/mair/taiwanese.html) about why Taiwan as a society has chosen to teach a language other than it's own. It's a good article for anyone interested in languages.

Now programming in Chinese would be a pain. To type just on character you have to type out a combination of other characters that are on the keyboard and then choose the character you want from a list that pops in a window. I only know this because I've seen my girlfriend type and I'm amazed at how easily she does it. This keyboard is literally filled with 3 different characters on every single letter, number and punctuation. I asked her once how she knows what to type and she goes by the phonetic spelling of the word. She also said she prefers to type in English because it's a lot easier to use English than Chinese.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing something like Firefly's setting with both English and Chinese as the dominant language. It was funny as hell to hear the characters swearing in Chinese. I was surprised when I heard one of them start saying something in Chinese. I know enough Chinese (especially what they were saying ;)) to pick up on the meaning and I literally almost fell off my chair when I couldn't stop laughing.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Sounds to me like people realizing that that alien pilot from Return Of The Jedi speaks an african language. ;)

[The pilot] Nunb was voiced by Kipsang Rotich, a student from Kenya, in his native tongue of Haya. In the movie, Nunb can also be heard speaking Kikuyu, another Kenyan language.

[Avantenor]

I still believe that the human brain has fewer obstacles in processing the native language than a learned language. Which means, in my opinion, that English-based (as native tongue) programmers have a slight advantage over foreign once (let's say even Greek ones, because Greece has its own set of an Alphabet.

Native tongue and foreign languages are using different brain regions. Best example for that are dyslexics (Legastheniker). They have problems to read their own language, but they are capable of learning foreign languages as any other human being.

Here in Germany there are some prejudices.

One of them is that : Americans don't care about the rest of the world. Therefore they do not see any need to learn other languages.

I think you're creating a false picture of german people. There are prejudices against the US politics, not against the language. That are two different things and people are capable enough to make a difference between these two things. I also think most of the studied people have arranged themselves with English language. English is the main language for all natural sciences and even my friends use it daily. But there is no urgent need for it in daily live. Turkish oftenly would be much more helpful than English.

Maybe that's bad luck for the gaming sector, who is forced to sell also on the English market, but I think the real problem was not the language but the product and the developer-publisher-realtionship. As you can see on the examples Gorath mentions, there are german developers who are able to place there products internationally. But Radon Labs was not able to sign a contract with a bigger ones who can push forward an english release, just like Koch/Deep Silver. I think that was the main problem and that's a result of the product they wanted to create.

They don't have a publisher. dtp is a local company. They can't publish their games in other markets without a partner. All they could do is Steam, etc., and I wonder why they haven't tried this yet. They have the same problem for Venetica.

It wasn't their job. Radon Labs develops. dtp promotes the German version. The international partners promote the international versions - unless they don't. I guess CD Projekt in Poland was the only international publisher really behind it.

And obviously there cannot be an English retail release without a publisher or distributor.

Afaik dtp's job also included finding a international publishers. At least that has been the impression they gave me over the years while talking to them about DraSa 1. But apparently they failed 'til now. I also don't know, why they didn't try out the Steam way.

That said I am at a loss why River of Time failed commercially in Europe. I even bought the personal edition for an insane amount of money and I thought these editions sold well.

That's what I am also wondering about. I don't really have an answer for this. Where have all the (german) customers of the first Drakensang gone? Don't know. Maybe this sequel came to fast after the first one, maybe with Dragon Age and Mass Effect ahead the competition was to hard for them. The german version of RoT was well received by the critics, so that can't be the answer.

[Fenris]

I thought the first DraSa was mediocre and uninteresting, so I haven't even considered buying RoT. Only after my younger Brother pointed me to the Review of "MTV-Game One" I was interested again - I nearly had missed one of the best RPGs ever ;)
Well, the AddOn was once again at the level of DraSa 1 - only much shorter.

[skavenhorde]

Sounds to me like people realizing that that alien pilot from Return Of The Jedi speaks an african language. ;)

I didn't know that. I bet there were a few people saying "Wait….What did that guy with two cheeks say? HEY!!! They speak our language in a galaxy far far away :D

[elikal]

Aww crap. I so loved Drakensang. I play The Dark Eye for 25 years, and even tho it was in some ways different than the pen and paper version, I really loved Drakensang and seeing the lands of the Dark Eye in computer again. Too bad. *sigh*

[KasperFauerby]

You overlook that Germans aren't good at speaking or writing in English. Everybody learns the language at school. That's enough to get along, but using it professionally is something different.


Yeah, I know that would be the "standard" answer - but I actually thought that it might be somewhat of a myth when it comes to the younger generation in Germany. I've had a couple of german colleagues over the time, and they all speak quite decent english. And they probably understand it even better I guess...

It's probably a matter of what you're used to. Denmark is such as small country that we never get any localized products, be it movies, games or whatever. As a result we've simply gotten used to all our media/entertainment being in english (sometimes with danish subtitles though). Hell, when I buy a new washing machine they might include a danish instruction manual - but usually it's just the output of BabelFish or something, so I always use the english manual instead :)

All the games I've shipped we've simply released as multi-language discs (EFIGS). Our tools and production pipelines has always been focused on developing multiple languages simultaneously, so localization has always been a fairly small thing for us - probably also cost-wise, although that has never been on my table so I can't say for sure. In the grand scheme of things the cost of recording/translating some spoken dialog and text to a couple of languanges is probably fairly small compared to the total development cost.

[KasperFauerby]

Oh, and I forgot - I have a question for Alrik about the actual RoT game (I guess that's actually "off topic" by now).

Have they recorded voices for all the dialogs this time? I can play german games as long as I have both voice and text, but I tend to struggle if it's text only....

[petardo]

I really hope they translate River of Time to English, with some marketing they could sell it very well. In Spain, it was distributed by FX Interactive, and they did a very good job: Take a look at the Spanish trailer of River of Time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7YT2Vwq-vQ&feature=related
At the end you can read "Rol en estado puro" that means something like "Pure Role Playing" :thumbsup:

[Avantenor]

Oh, and I forgot - I have a question for Alrik about the actual RoT game (I guess that's actually "off topic" by now).

Have they recorded voices for all the dialogs this time? I can play german games as long as I have both voice and text, but I tend to struggle if it's text only….

I'm not Alrik, but I can answer this as well. It has full voice recording.

[Gorath]

Yes, all dialogs have full voice-overs.

Amazon.de has the CE for 40€, if you're looking. The normal edition should cost 25-30€ everywhere. It's hard to predict when another price reduction will come. You can make a case for both reducing the price now or waiting till next year.

[Gorath]

Afaik dtp's job also included finding a international publishers. At least that has been the impression they gave me over the years while talking to them about DraSa 1. But apparently they failed 'til now. I also don't know, why they didn't try out the Steam way.
Yes, I agree.
I wonder if the contract between RL and dtp does (not) include a clause that the rights for certain territories fall back if they're not put to use.

[bkrueger]

I expect that with the growing importance of digital downloads the need for local publishers will vanish in the end. The developer or the main publisher will pay for localisation and hope that digital sales will justify it. They should have done that for the River of Time.

[Avantenor]

I expect that with the growing importance of digital downloads the need for local publishers will vanish in the end. The developer or the main publisher will pay for localisation and hope that digital sales will justify it. They should have done that for the River of Time.

I disagree. Small developers like Radon Labs won't be able to financially stem such a project, even if it was as "low-budget" as Drakensang 1 (~5 Mio. €, maybe some more). They will always need a bigger partner and that one will dictate the terms of publishing. I don't think Radon Labs missed the chance to ask some financially more capable publishers to publish their game.

[bkrueger]

I disagree. Small developers like Radon Labs won't be able to financially stem such a project, even if it is as "low-budget" as Drakensang 1 (~5 Mio. €, maybe some more).
That is why I said "… or the main publisher."

In other words, the party which provides the money for game development should also pay for localisations. There is no reason to have this role distributed over different countries any more, because you don't need local distribution structures any more.

[Voxclamant]

I find this sad that "it didn't sell enough."

Drakensang is a very enjoyable game to me, and I have replayed it several times. With the exception of the final boss fight (which I found to be insanely difficult to beat) this has become one of my favorite replayable RPGs. A couple mods I found, especially one that added a battlemage, also added a ton to this game.

Methinks they did a horrible job of marketing it -- and not making the addons available was a serious error. I have no clue why they would largely ignore the USA market so long and to such a degree. With no disrespect meant to anyone, I have to assume USA sales are near the top for any serious game title.

Oh well. Sad.

[Avantenor]

That is why I said "… or the main publisher."

In other words, the party which provides the money for game development should also pay for localisations. There is no reason to have this role distributed over different countries any more, because you don't need local distribution structures any more.

It's a little bit more complicated. It is not, that they ignore Steam. dtp is well aware of steam. They are also selling games there (http://store.steampowered.com/search/?publisher=DTP%20Entertainment), amongst them Legend, Drakensang 1 and Divinity 2, and at least in German, French and English. But some unknown reasons prevent them from doing this also for Drakensang 2 (or Venetica). That seems to be bad luck for Radon Labs.

There are no other publishers that have interest in a crpg franchise. Ubi and ActiBlizz simply don't care about the genre, EA has BioWare, Atari has D&D, Deep Silver has Piranha Bytes and Sacred, JoWood is unreliable, Microsoft and Sony are not interested in PC gaming, and Sega / THQ / Warner / SquareEnix / Bethesda are not really represented on the European market or have better options. Whom they should have asked instead? On of them you will need for sure, no other has the ressources to do so. Even CD Project needs international partners for releasing The Witcher 2 worldwide.

[Grandor Dragon]

Just some thoughts from a linguist:

Language is much more than an obstacle to selling games. There is so much culture in each language - all the idioms, schemas, associations, leanwords...languages are an excellent way to learn about different cultures and mentalities. A world with only one language would be very, very poor. Language death, which in this centruy will affect the majority of the world's languages, is a real loss when it comes the rich diversity of mankind, and our opportunities to learn about it. Learning about different cultures and languages means learning about humanity. Thankfully, a unilingual world is a very unrealistic vision.

Chinese Mandarin is the language with the most native speakers, and of course China is gaining political and economical power. Still, there are no signs of Mandarin becoming the next Lingua Franca. In fact, China's increasing involvement in the world's affairs might increase the use of English, as more and more Chinese learn the language.

German knowledge of English is not bad, really. But knowing a foreign language in a way that enables you to use it as a writer takes much more than just knowing the words and the grammar. It takes a lot of cultural experience.

[bkrueger]

@ Grandor Dragon: +1

[Grandor Dragon]

Native tongue and foreign languages are using different brain regions. Best example for that are dyslexics (Legastheniker). They have problems to read their own language, but they are capable of learning foreign languages as any other human being.



I don't know where you read this, but both claims are a bit strange. Very little is known about how foreign languages are processed in the brain as opposed to native languages. There are obviously differences in representation, but when it comes to location, evidence from neuroimaging to lesion studies imply that the differences are not very big.

The dyslexia comment also cannot stand as it is. I am not an expert on dyslexia (not by far), but I assume that most dyslexic cases have difficulties with several languages. Now there are different types of dyslexia, and I cannot rule out that some might fit your description. However, I never heard of them, despite having worked in a department which does research on dyslexia, among other things.

You should consider that languages have different orthographic systems, so that the same neurological impairment can manifest differently depending on how sounds and words are represented visually. For instance, difficulties in phonological segmentation ("c-a-t") might not play a role if you write in Kanji.

[zakhal]

I didn't know that. I bet there were a few people saying "Wait….What did that guy with two cheeks say? HEY!!! They speak our language in a galaxy far far away :D

Not sure about movies but Star Wars has used finnish language too atleast in games.
Masters of Teräs Käsi was a star wars beat em up game. The words "Teräs Käsi" are finnish and mean steel hand. When I first saw the name of the game in finnish games mag I was like "Whaaat..".

[DArtagnan]

Just some thoughts from a linguist:

Language is much more than an obstacle to selling games. There is so much culture in each language - all the idioms, schemas, associations, leanwords…languages are an excellent way to learn about different cultures and mentalities. A world with only one language would be very, very poor. Language death, which in this centruy will affect the majority of the world's languages, is a real loss when it comes the rich diversity of mankind, and our opportunities to learn about it. Learning about different cultures and languages means learning about humanity. Thankfully, a unilingual world is a very unrealistic vision.

Chinese Mandarin is the language with the most native speakers, and of course China is gaining political and economical power. Still, there are no signs of Mandarin becoming the next Lingua Franca. In fact, China's increasing involvement in the world's affairs might increase the use of English, as more and more Chinese learn the language.

German knowledge of English is not bad, really. But knowing a foreign language in a way that enables you to use it as a writer takes much more than just knowing the words and the grammar. It takes a lot of cultural experience.

Every single human being is a culture individually, and what language we use externally is irrelevant.

History has evolved with these languages, sure - but history will be there, regardless of the language we choose to speak universally.

It's a ridiculous thing to hold on to a language, because you think you're going to lose something.

Don't think of the loss, think of the gain.

The illusion of history held within a language, is nothing to the benefits of having a universal understanding between peoples. Not just financially, but in terms of getting closer - and eradicating the destructive and alienating barriers between us.

What's key is what is within, not how the languages developed, which is completely circumstantial - and for no other reason than to communicate our thoughts and feelings. Any language can do that, and if we all have the same one - we have a MUCH better chance of understanding.

With all that said, you're completely right about it being a utopian notion. I don't expect people to stop being morons, as they've always excelled at that. Ignorance is the number one reason the world is hell for so many, and ignorance will remain as long as people don't open their eyes.

Again, most people don't enjoy that experience - so they simply keep them closed.

Oh, and yes, I'm a moron myself. Not in this particular way - but in several others ;)

[Grandor Dragon]

It is strange that you describe the problem as an either/or. Either people agree on one language and overcome all sorts of barriers, or we will live in a post-tower-of-babel-world full of ignorance and conflict.

But you can always learn a second or third language. We had different lingua francas in different time periods. In the west it used to be Greek, then Latin, French, in some circles German or Italian, and now it's undeniably English. It is true that you can overcome a lot of difficulties if everyone speaks one language. But it doesn't have to come at a cost of your native language.

Yes, you can regard each person as an individual culture, but then, each person has an individual language as well. This point does not say anything about the relationship between language and culture or history.

Btw, I did not say that history is "within" a language. Language is just the access to a culture and its history, and often it contributes to it. This is also the reason why we won't get a unilingual world with a population of 7 billion. With cultural diversity (and I hope you are not against that) comes linguistic diversity, and the more different the experiences, the more the languages will differ with time. If we could switch everyone's language to Esperanto *now* but did not change anything about cultural diversity, we would see Esperanto splitting into very different dialects in the next decades, and into different languages in the next centuries.

The relationship between culture and language is also what makes translations difficult. For more complex literature, it is simply impossible to convey the exact same thoughts and emotions in a different language.

The death of a language is quite dramatic. Think of poems and prose and how they can work in one language, but not in another. Think of how a language can be used to understand the history of a society. And of course, there is the whole issue of identity. I guess none of us who speak more prominent languages understand what it means to be one of the last two dozen people still speaking a language. These speakers feel like the last representatives of an entire people. There is some literature that tries to describe the situation.

Based on what you wrote earlier I assume you are monolingual. I know that this is an ad hominem argument, but I don't think that you can quite understand the issue if you have no real experience with a second language.

[DArtagnan]

It is strange that you describe the problem as an either/or. Either people agree on one language and overcome all sorts of barriers, or we will live in a post-tower-of-babel-world full of ignorance and conflict.

Few things are either or in the real world.

We're communicating, and sometimes black and white articulation is what works best to get the point across.

If it was feasible to have people learn several languages and yet retain, basically, full understanding during international communication - that would be great.

Personally, I think understanding is the vital aspect. I think a single language will accomplish that better, especially for people with difficulties in that way.

The more time you spend with a single language, the better you will understand its nuances - and I don't care how multilingual you are - there will always be a primary language you can deal with better than the rest.

But you can always learn a second or third language. We had different lingua francas in different time periods. In the west it used to be Greek, then Latin, French, in some circles German or Italian, and now it's undeniably English. It is true that you can overcome a lot of difficulties if everyone speaks one language. But it doesn't have to come at a cost of your native language.


Of course it doesn't have to come at that cost. But the problem is that our native languages are so different. It's not enough to "speak a second language" because few people really understand that language in-depth, and as such nuances will be lost. That's the point.

Yes, you can regard each person as an individual culture, but then, each person has an individual language as well. This point does not say anything about the relationship between language and culture or history.

No, I meant for it to say that culture is about individual perception and I personally despise labelling people because they belong to a culture. That's placing people in boxes - and nostalgic preference for traditional languages is something I consider irrational and futile in terms of bringing good to the world.

Btw, I did not say that history is "within" a language. Language is just the access to a culture and its history, and often it contributes to it. This is also the reason why we won't get a unilingual world with a population of 7 billion. With cultural diversity (and I hope you are not against that) comes linguistic diversity, and the more different the experiences, the more the languages will differ with time. If we could switch everyone's language to Esperanto *now* but did not change anything about cultural diversity, we would see Esperanto splitting into very different dialects in the next decades, and into different languages in the next centuries.

This is how it has always been, yes, but not how it has to be.

Proximity was a lot more key in the past, and these days we have easy ways of communicating across vast distances.

Then again, my personal vision is of a world without borders and without cultural isolation.

Another futile and utopian notion, but it's still what I would like to see.

The relationship between culture and language is also what makes translations difficult. For more complex literature, it is simply impossible to convey the exact same thoughts and emotions in a different language.

Exactly, which is why we need a new culture. The old cultures damage our chance as a united race. You may think it's charming, but I think it's horribly harmful to social unification - which is the utopia I'm interested in.

The death of a language is quite dramatic. Think of poems and prose and how they can work in one language, but not in another. Think of how a language can be used to understand the history of a society. And of course, there is the whole issue of identity. I guess none of us who speak more prominent languages understand what it means to be one of the last two dozen people still speaking a language. These speakers feel like the last representatives of an entire people. There is some literature that tries to describe the situation.

Beauty and art comes from within the subject. Hence, purity is pure subjectivity. That's not about culture, that's about the individual.

The individual communicates best his feelings and thoughts using a language everyone can understand. That's how you enrich our world, and not by mystifying what the hell is supposed to be said.

Based on what you wrote earlier I assume you are monolingual. I know that this is an ad hominem argument, but I don't think that you can quite understand the issue if you have no real experience with a second language.

Are you kidding?

I'm danish. How do you think I'm doing with my english? ;)

I also happen to speak a few other languages.

I don't think it's helpful to claim that I don't understand the issue.

Can't we speak as if we simply disagree? That's how I see it, anyway.

After all, it's tempting to claim you have an emotional attachment to languages, based on your interests as a linguist - that would make your vision in this matter quite blurry.

That would be unfair though, and I have to assume you can take an objective standpoint and base your points on rational arguments, rather than nostalgic fondness.

[Grandor Dragon]

How should I know that you are Danish? In an earlier post you wrote that you did not want to learn another language, and I misread that. Sorry about that.

As a linguist, you naturally come to have an opinion on these issues. My main focus does not lie on the diversity of languages though, but more on cognitive processes common to all.

I was trying to understand how you came to that viewpoint. I think the issue is more about cultural diversity, which I do not regard as isolation, but simply as dynamic groups emerging based on different experiences and views. On this we appear to have different views.

[DArtagnan]

How should I know that you are Danish? In an earlier post you wrote that you did not want to learn another language, and I misread that. Sorry about that.

Nah, I was trying to make a joke about it ;)

I said that I didn't want to learn another language, as in ONE MORE. But I also said that I would be willing, because you have to sacrifice.

I was trying to understand how you came to that viewpoint. I think the issue is more about cultural diversity, which I do not regard as isolation, but simply as dynamic groups emerging based on different experiences and views. On this we appear to have different views.

Well, they can be both things - I think.

My angle of approach is always about the human mind and human nature, as that is my primary passion and interest.

Unfortunately, most human beings tend to fear or avoid things they don't know how to deal with, or that they don't understand.

That's why culture can be a very powerful deterrent, when it comes to uniting peoples. Especially if strong religious roots are part of the equation.

So, that's where I come from in this.

I so want people to understand that we're basically the same, all around the world, and whatever country we happen to be born in, or whatever our parents or our environment have done to our points of view, or sets of values - we're still the same.

That's why we should diversify as individuals, and not cultures - because cultures never take into account the individual, unless that individual is considered exceptional. Which takes me back, because we're all exceptional - and we're all frail and weak.

So, we need not fear or alienate one another - because we are all the same.

[Avantenor]

I don't know where you read this, but both claims are a bit strange. […]

Now there are different types of dyslexia, and I cannot rule out that some might fit your description. However, I never heard of them, despite having worked in a department which does research on dyslexia, among other things.
It was a statement of a therapist during my civil service. Her son was suffering from dyslexia, so he had problems with his own language, but he was quite good in english. She gave me this as reason for that (apparent) discrepency. But I have to admit that my civil service has been over for 8 years now, so there maybe could be new scientific results.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

On language :

Partially translation of an article on Germany and the English language, entitled "Fritz Pleitgen is 'Language-adulterater of the year' "

"[ A few notes on dialects spoken in the German Ruhrgebiet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhr) ] Maybe this is the rasion why the makers of the "Ruhr 2010" have been over-ambitious in the try to ennoble the region during the 'cultural capital year' to an international metropolis :

They declared the free willing helpers to 'volunteers', a co-operation project with the european partner towns is called 'Twins' and the single towns within the "ruhr metropolis" are appearing as "Local Heroes".

These, and several other Denglish titles more made the club called "German Language" so sour like a gulp of water from the river Emscher [note to non-Germans : The Emscher is said to be the far, far most polluted and biologically dead river for a lot of decades now. The industry didn't have anything against just putting their liquid waste into that river - for decades].

Therefore, they nominated - as a representative - the business manager of the "Ruhr 2010" to the "Language-adulterater of the Year". He hadn't prevented the advertisement for the "cultural capital" [Note: in 2010, the *whole area* called the "Ruhrgebiet" was designated as a "cultural capital", despite it consisting of a huge amount of individual, single towns, some bigger, like Essen, Duisburg, Dortmund, Bochum, Bottrop, some smaller], quote, "to verify the worst prejudices about the grovelling Germans", and one wonders why there still is a German translation of the English Internet site anyway, the club with head in Dortmund rants.

[Some more notes about local Ruhrgebiet ways of thinking following.]"

This is one of the things going on here in Germany . driven by "marketing speech", the English language is totalle "hip" here, which results in the English lnguage replacing even words that do not need to be replaced at all, because there ARE proper German-languge terms for that.

Instead, people happily invent a "Denglish" called weird mixture of German + English, doing as if there was no need for the German language at all anymore.

And this is the point where Germans get upset, because they have the feeling as if a part of them gets lost - apart from the fact that only a minority *actually* understands the meaning of these "marketing speech buzzwords" at all. Some are even totally mis-translated by unknowing Germans, in some cases even resulting in the total opposite effect of what was desired.

This is like a fashion in marketing right now.

This is like … Imagine you going through your town, and seeing advertisements verywhere (even on TV, newspapers etc.) in which marketing words of your own language are replaced by/with Moldavian words you just don't understand.

That's the situation, as a *lot* of people feel here.

And some say the Germans are grovelling, because they readily adapt English words and happil replace almost every German word, until nothing like English language remains.
They say, the fashion of using English-languge marketuing words should be stopped, and that Germans should rather be like English people or like French people : Insisting on the use of their own language instead.

[bemushroomed]

I think we want to avoid this (about the Danish language):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mOy8VUEBk

:biggrin:

[pibbur]

I think we want to avoid this (about the Danish language):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mOy8VUEBk

:biggrin:

Heh! I was going to post that, but didn't get around to actually doing it. I guess I'm just too polite.

[Maylander]

Hehe, both Swedes and Norwegians tend to consider that one hilarious. Most Danes I know don't agree...

[DArtagnan]

I thought it was cute ;)

[Pladio]

Okay, I don't want to bash you, but you are our German "representative" here. ;)

So is there a single news site in German that does support more than German only language? And how many films have you seen in English? Are there any in movie theaters without dubbing?

Reply to everyone about this ...

I lived in Belgium all my life and in Belgium, until very recently and mostly still only for kid's movies, movies are all in their original language and subtitled in both French and Dutch in most movie theatres.

Because of that I much prefer watching movies, tv-shows and so on in their original language. I watched Hero in Chinese, I watched La Vita e Bella in Italian and Le Fabuleux Destin D'Amelie Poulain in French, ...

I don't understand how people can watch movies that are dubbed...
However, I think games are very different since they can actually synchronize the graphics to the voice and as such makes it bearable. Also, if the acting is good enough then I think that changing the voices to a different language is a good investment if you can reach a wider public. However, if that is not possible, I would very much accept a game that is only subtitled in English or any of the other languages I speak.

As in I bought Civ II in France (France), Knights and Merchants in Belgium (Dutch). I didn't play RPGs back then, but I wouldn't mind Risen in German with English subtitles. I might even manage to pick up some things from it.

I haven't played Drakensang, still busy with GIII, long game...
Just my two cents or pennies :)

[Dwagginz]

I think that someone has to be at fault for this, but I don't think it's one person in particular. Drakensang was heavily under-advertised and a lot of people haven't heard of it - unless they're "hardcore" RPG players. I've seen it crop up a few times on the BioWare site when people want a Dragon Age style game, and you'll always see at least one "What's Drakensang?" comment.

I don't think dtp have really helped matters. On their forums there's a section for the English release of River of Time, and we're constantly asking for updates but getting nothing. As far as I can tell, the UK release of both Drakensang and Divinity 2 was handled by dtp (They're on the box with no mention of any other publishers, unlike the US release of Drakensang with THQ on the case). They don't advertise their products, they don't give us updates on what is or isn't happening with the game and so on.

[Zaleukos]

Hehe, both Swedes and Norwegians tend to consider that one hilarious. Most Danes I know don't agree…

I vaguely remember an academic study stating that the "complex" articulation caused Danish kids learned to speak later than kids in other countries. :D

[bemushroomed]

I vaguely remember an academic study stating that the "complex" articulation caused Danish kids learned to speak later than kids in other countries. :D

i have a friend who's sister and husband moved there, this was 15 years ago and they still can't speak danish, they do understand it quite well though hehe

[Elwro]

It wasn't their job. Radon Labs develops. dtp promotes the German version. The international partners promote the international versions - unless they don't. I guess CD Projekt in Poland was the only international publisher really behind it.Techland, not CD Projekt, is the Polish publisher of the game. Frankly, it's bad news for the game's sales in Poland.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

New mini-interview : http://www.mediabiz.de/games/news/bernd-beyreuther-schritt-zum-online-entwickler-uneingeschraenkt-empfehlen/294430

Besides, the reactions of the fan base regarding these last two interviews (this one and the one of this news bit) are very bitter.

Most fans who are still writing there are incredibl bitter and sour nowadays and accuse Mr. Beyreuther of … how do I put it into words ? Of having changed sides, kind of betrayal, because they say that he appears to say today "exactly the opposite" of what he said about TDE during the Drakensang developments. For example of the rule set rather having become "a hindrance" and the team more willing to do rather pure action games today. That's how it sounds to the fans.

[Gorath]

Techland, not CD Projekt, is the Polish publisher of the game. Frankly, it's bad news for the game's sales in Poland.

Thanks for the correction. I heard the Polish publisher did a great job.

Is TRoT still waiting for a Polish release? I was under the impression that DraSa sales in Poland were very good.

[Krzychu]

Is TRoT still waiting for a Polish release? I was under the impression that DraSa sales in Poland were very good.

I can't give you any actual numbers, but the reviews were positive. We did have a Collector's Edition, which still collects dust in some stores, though, and is now cheaper than the standard edition on release day.
River of Time was supposed to be released back in May at first, but is now slated for … huh, 09.09.10 … that's in 5 days, actually. Heh, didn't know that. Btw, we're also getting a CE of River of Time.

[Gorath]

The Polish CE was even better than the German CE.

Good to hear it's coming out over there. I hope RoT will have decent sales. It's clearly better than DraSa, just a bit short.

[aries100]

i have a friend who's sister and husband moved there, this was 15 years ago and they still can't speak danish, they do understand it quite well though hehe

As a Dane - and language teacher in Danish to foreigners, I have to agree with this.
And the big challenge is that in Norway and Sweden, they sound every syllable out loud and clear, not so in Danish. We have a strong tendency to reductionism e.g. a word like morgenen (the morning) will be spoken like this [mornen]. And there's plenty of other examples for this as well.

And, yes, the children in scholl who learn to write in Danish have exactly the same problems with this as the foreigners have, i.e. they both will write 'jæm' for hjem (home) because they write what they hear.

As for the little film about Danish, most Danes will probably think it is cute...

Back to the topic at hand: I wanted to get Drakensang in German (or in English), but hadn't the money when the game was released in 2008? I tried the demo of TRoT, but didn't like it much, mainly because the game wasn't about me as the hero, but about -ahem- three other people. That might not be a big problem, if the story was interesting. It wasn't - to me, that is.

The rule system used for both Drakensang and River of Time could certainly need a bit more streamlining, I find. I found the level up thing in Drakensang very confusing, but eventually got the hang of it.

As for they didn't go for Steam or Gamer's Gate, I don't know.

[Elwro]

The Polish CE was even better than the German CE.

Good to hear it's coming out over there. I hope RoT will have decent sales. Yeah, our CEs tend to be quite lavish. CD Projekt started the trend, with even regular releases, back when most people were pirates (software copyright laws in Poland have been in place only since 1994!), to convince them that it's in their own interest to pay for a legal copy.

The Polish version of RoT already got a positive review from CD Action; I think it should be in stores soon. I have Drakensang, but I haven't played it yet due to lack of time; unfortunately I heard bad stuff about the translation.

Well, I hope the game does well. I don't think even stellar sales in Poland may convince foreign publishers to grab the title, though...

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Oh, I'm so jealous having just seen the Polish CE in the other thread ! How much does it cost, in Euros ?

[Elwro]

43.15 Euros. But I'm not sure about whether shipping is included (I'd say it isn't).

And there are supposedly some bonus in-game items in the CE (if you order via www.drakensang.pl); the website says both that you get all 4 AND that you can choose one of them. No idea what they mean by this.

And, what's worse, I just clicked "buy now" on their link to the CE edition and got a "the page cannot be displayed" error. Well, there's Techland for you. Hope they sort this out.

[Dark Savant]

It is cheaper in this shop and they also send abroad. I ordered Venetica half year ago without problem.
http://merlin.pl/Drakensang-River-of-Time-Edycja-kolekcjonerska/browse/product/8,791693.html

[Elwro]

Cool, nice to know that, thanks! Some "regular" releases of new games are more expensive than that...

[Dwagginz]

If that comes with English (i.e. English subtitles/text), I'm so buying it.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

the website says both that you get all 4 AND that you can choose one of them. No idea what they mean by this.

That's simple.

The German PE had 2 items that could be personlized.

Initially, the handbook and all press releases and texts said that you had to chose for one of both.

But essentially, there was no way or reason to hinder the buyer to get the other item, too. Which everyone did, as sool as this possibility became known. ;)

There are I think 3 or 4 items available through other versions of the game : The CE, a commercial donload-only version, an item that came as a bonus code with a magazine, and an item one could win in a small game of the official web site. All of these items are basically notthing but codes.

The German PE is perhaps one of the most exclusive game editions ever, except of course to those available for press editors only.

Seeing the "downfall" of Radon Labs I'm actually glad I chose to order a PE.
Despite its heavy price.

[Elwro]

OK, thanks for the clarification.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Here's an excellent overview on what's currently happening around TDE = DSA : http://zivilschein.wordpress.com/2010/08/27/wandeln-in-den-zeiten-von-dsa/

Google seems to translate it very good into English as well - except the very last few paragraphs, which it just seems to skip.

I don't know how to do this, apart from copy & paste.

Everyone interested in TDE = DSA should imho read it !

Edit : Here's the google translation :

Please note that google translations translated "Drakensang" as "Flashpoint" !


After 25 years, "The Dark Eye" (DSA) brought the issuing Verlag Ulisses drastic changes to the way the table will be further developed in RPG.
Ulrich Kiesow, the DSA was first published in 1984 brought to the Schmidt games (first in cooperation with Droemer Knaur) had died in 1997 and shortly thereafter had filed for bankruptcy Schmidt games. After having briefly looked uncertain for the success of role play, was founded by Ulrich Kiesow Fantasy Fantasy Productions Publisher (FanPro) took over the publication. Ten years later he gave it again: The DSA novels published FanPro continue that went for the contents of the table RPG responsible DSA-editors but also on how the publishing rights to all relevant publications for 2007 to the role-Verlag Ulisses.

A year later, shortly after the Ratcon 2008, Florian was Don-looking of the Editorial Board for DSA relieved. He had taken over after Ulrich Kiesows death in 1997 this function together with his colleague Thomas Roman of the DSA-inventor. Thomas Romans, who had previously been next to Don Florian equal-looking chief, took over the now altogether.
The move announced irritated some difficult, especially since he neither by Ulisses, nor from the ex-editor in chief himself, or his colleagues and has played this was the Ratcon 2008 just before this change is still very active in his old role.

Really dramatically, however, were only the changes in the anniversary year 2009, when it was restructured in the fall of the editorial itself. When was the coordinated FanPro DSA Redakion a little loose group of authors, their approach by the chief editor was, but had all the creative influence on the development of the role play. Ulisses replaced this model with a clearly defined pool of editors who are supposed to implement what is decided by a five-member "core editorial. Patric Götz became the head of them, and also worked further as a publishing manager at Ulisses (a task which he resigned a few months after the restructuring). Thomas Roman, who supported him, acts as their spokesman. The other key editors are Chris Gosse, Daniel Richter and Uli Simon Lindner.

The new way of working made problems. In April 2010 Don Florian took a look-up his hat and left the DSA-editing for all. His former colleague, Thomas Romans, after all this time wrote a short note about it, otherwise it remained outwardly calm down.
Florian Don-looking but still written fantasy texts, this limits at DSA but since then on novels that are not in Ulysses, but moved further in FanPro.

On 18 August, Mark Wachholz then removed from the office. Thomas Romans founded this in the official statement:

We consider that occurred many years practical, organizational and conceptual differences for non-bridged and have therefore decided after lengthy consideration to this step.

Content, organization and conceptual differences?
Mark Wachholz has made since leaving a lot of text on the Internet. In his first lengthy opinion, the differences referred to read as follows:

The reason for the trouble I've caused apparently the publisher is, in my personal opinion, probably the fact that I not only with the Metaplot quasi-planning activity in the DSA-produced editorial, […] but that I also had repeatedly expressed criticism of the "disempowerment" of the DSA-editing by the insertion of the core editors in the autumn of last year. For this request, since then decide on publishing anything that happens to DSA and are in direct contact with the Publisher. Basically as a five-member Editorial Board, so I was taught that without a top was the chief editor.

As editors, we had just learned of this decision one day before the official release, by mail with the note that this press release "is not unimportant. ^ ^

After a long and detailed critique (not just mine) but we were promised that we would see it all wrong and nothing would change in the future work of the editors. But nothing happened, and after a few months ago, I signaled my displeasure again. Finally, I must assume that my criticism was seen in the decision of the publisher as a wanton attack on the integrity and therefore no consensus or so was possible.

The fact that Mark Wachholz not the only internal critics of Ulysses' way to develop DSA was, he points in another discussion in the Vinsalt forums where he parallels between his departure and the former by Florian pulls Don-shows:

The way in which the publisher has kicked me, does not hurt me, because I had no other way can imagine, after everyone had seen at the office, such as Florian Don displays was suddenly no longer editor in chief, to do it then without prior Info had such a sudden three (!) new this place a year later and filled up with what bitter words he finally, in April this year finally took his hat from the DSA office. Someone much longer and been much more responsible position than I was.

In response to the sacking of Mark Wachholz also occurred Tyll Zybura and Katharina Pietsch from the DSA-editing, both of which were taken a few years ago as a dedicated DSA fans in this - as this was still Fanpro.

Tyll Zybura said in his statement of "many years […] of disappointment and frustration with the editorial operations (and more generally the production company) by DSA," his longtime friend and associate Catherine Pietsch was detailed:

I started several months ago to write a mail to resign from the office, as it became clear that the cooperation between the core team and the editor does not work and have thus confirmed the fears that for me in the fall with the establishment of core team to work in the office were connected on (and to me even then a lot of work pleasure and motivation, for example, I had taken from the RatCon have stolen) that ensure that the work of writing is marginalized in practice and this is again well in addition to the deterioration down of communication and coordination, especially in the disregard of the responsibilities of the editors is.

[…]

The 'Vision', which has Ulisses of DSA are as many printed pages, the content and quality are secondary. This is for me but no environment in which I will continue to do work that motivated solely by the desire for good, narratively exciting developments to see to get good, useful publications on the way and to write good, useful articles, and can motivate me even from this desire.

Also Michelle and Ragnar sulfur, which were not members of the editorial team, but have made important contributions over many years for DSA said that the dismissal of Mark Wachholz the complete phase-out all its work for the RPG.
In relation to the dismissed workers told both together [PDF]:

His kicking us signaled definitively that, for our ideas to the development of DSA and our involvement in Ulisses no place.
Important parts of the core editorial team have in the discussion of our concepts […] in recent months proved that it does not see the need for such conceptual work [,] nor to appreciate the work done there. On the contrary. At some point, the point has come where the frustration is too great. This is the case now.

What exactly was this frustration, Michelle said sulfur in a very detailed commentary on the moon letter:

I would have had no problem in accepting that such planning is not desired. I hold this to be a mistake, but that decision is for the publisher. I also have no problem if you look at the reserves for the core of this editorial and communicated. And I would have had no problem with it. to discuss an alternative approach of another editor (but wait, this I would have had no power, so take this objection as theoretical) - if it had not been given one.
But what I do not like is when we - because we believe that it is not only appropriate but does Not present - a concept, and this is defeated two years in the air without the publisher busy. Conceptual work is expensive. We have done this work for free. We have gladly done and on my own, no question. But not for us to incense, but because we believe that such planning is very important for DSA and Aventuria, and because we are firmly convinced that that would have brought the players an advantage. In recent years, the brand DSA has lost more and more confidence. Players were disappointed and frustrated. Our goal was to regain that confidence little by little to learn from the mistakes of the past […] and there - to hopefully - better. […]

We have not had the right to get all our concepts are simply the go or even 1:1 to be implemented. I had expected no thanks. But we had the claim that we our work seriously and has been paid to deals, as we have explained to us with comments on our concepts and looking for compromises, even if we were perhaps a different opinion. Instead, it has slowed us verschludert concepts or, despite repeated requests not read, questions not answered, agreed conferences canceled at short notice, papers, even then, not read when it was long-awaited meetings / discussions (but of course still mitgeredet) and the like. Especially I liked it when we have changed due to a settlement of a note, just so that precisely this desired change in a subsequent round of comments, sometimes even by the same person was again criticized. A rogue who evil thinks.
[…]

It would be easier for all concerned, fair (and more relaxing was) when the charge should have equal claims to have in our policy or in a middle kingdom concept generally not interested. The cliffhanger, however, we have gewärtigt testimony, even from a remarkable deal with each other, who has found in Mark's second leg of its peak.
Tyll has given in its opinion, the frustration that has befallen me more and more apt words. Motivation has been met with disinterest, commitment was a nuisance or produced jealousies and - yes - even fear.
[…]

[…] There are divergent opinions that have to be reconciled, where everyone has to back down, sometimes completely. This must be able to withstand. One must be able to separate between criticism of the case and criticism to one, must be willing to let someone else make times and recognize that his own ego is not necessarily harmful. A successful work should be the goal, and should suffice as a uniting focus to putting aside all personal feelings.

I will not rule out that the publishers the benefits of a comprehensive plan looks like. My experiences have been me but doubt that this claim, it is present, then, to be implemented seriously in the act is or may be implemented. With Mark, Catherine and Tyll three members of the editorial staff have given up their work, which not only had a strong interest to make such planning, but have also gone into production with its concepts. Concepts, which - from my humble point of view - high quality and were viable.
Sure there are others who can do the job well. I'm curious, but not hopeful, given what I have experienced in recent years.

In the meantime, a deleted post in the forums of Alveran.org criticized Michelle sulfur husband Ragnar sulfur mentality, with regard to the product of Ulisses DSA. The excerpts quoted here follow the games on the blog "The just want to play" version reproduced, where these and other contributions have been archived to the point:

Michelle and I were not sure of the fastest writers, because we much (outside of the DSA world) researched, honed on the lyrics and had a high demand on the consistency and relevance of the information presented.
How much is left of such a work is entitled, if you have an SH runterklopfen place in 12-18 months in 3-4 months (eg Orkland-SH), everyone can easily figure out yourself. In the embedding in an orderly and übergeordenten Metaplot is not yet included.
Especially since it is never heard from only one side responsible "thank you for the great work," but only "I do not need it good, I need it Wednesday."

Now, once the usual suspects will cry, but clear: The publisher finally lives from the fact that he publishes products and delays cost money.
Correct. I certainly was always aware that DSA is a commercial product that people want to live on and need. But the success of DSA is based certainly not just a small part in the work of many fans and as such, the publisher can not pay adequately, it is as far as possible kept pflleglich deal with this human capital.

"I do not need it good, I need it wednesday called" Ragnar sulfur that mentality. DSA-products should not appear good, but fast.

DSA fans are confused whether the events. Some ask "Rabbatz" on the Ratcon or the "boycott" by Ulisses products, a sense of humor think about protest-shirts or discuss a "Wikileaks Aventurica.

The sinking of Ulisses?

Moritz speaks at "off the soapbox down" from a "storm in a teacup" and believes in no significant impact of the events on DSA.

Dominik from the role-Almanac is the "waves" that run the current changes in the editorial, strange.

On the "Blog of the Black Eye" will be found that such issues should not be held in public, because only the parties could say something about it and just this lack of objectivity.

Very superior admonishes the author and long-DSA-editor Lena Falkenhagen in the comments on the article by Moon letters restraint: our image of all of the events must surely be one-sided, as editor and publisher rather keep covered.
This restraint sees it as "real professional behavior."

herumrühren intensive in the International Editorial is actually not very useful, and kicking off the DSA publication or the death of role are emerging - but not with the process itself can be read by certain tendencies which are expressed in the representations of Gone too.

When Mark Wachholz 'notice has really happened the way she describes this - on the phone during a conversation on an otherwise completely different topic - which actually really bad form and is open to criticism.
She was, however, and this is much cheaper in mind, four other very dedicated DSA-authors an opportunity to lay down their work as well, because they believe it to recognize a certain mentality. It should be interesting to see who are the Approved.

Mark Wachholz was a perfect example of a fanboy Promoted. He wrote many articles in Aventurischer messengers who were concerned with action begun by completely different authors working towards threads or future events occurring. His work on the archives Aventurischer three to seven (the current band) meant the combining long written texts. He has thought very little plot and characters even for DSA.
On most noticeable was his work on Alveran.org, one of the most important German role-playing sites. Their regular news updates represented over the last years the main source for news about DSA and employed Mark Wachholz for several hours each week. This news item was set as part of his separation from Ulisses how Alveran.org explains in his own behalf:

In the course of the separation between games and Ulisses Mark Wachholz than DSA-editor, we are forced to adapt to further news on the DSA Alveran. Mark was one of the webmaster of our site since April 2002, the news section operated almost in isolation and informs a lot of effort for eight years players, fans, DSA-authors and editors about everything about the black eye. Our aim has always been to DSA to present in its entirety. With the termination of his engagement DSA also this work is set here now. Update on current events or important in his own behalf, we will continue to be reported here, however. Internally, we discussed in the light of current events is also currently on the further future of Alveran.org. It confronts us with the question of whether we identify ourselves with our nearly 15-year-old fan work with the path from the publisher for The Dark Eye still can. We will, however, weigh in peace.

Indicated by the complete end for Alveran.org apart: This breaks off a huge piece of fan work for DSA. There is no news Alveran.org be much more difficult to stay on new products and developments informed regarding the role play.

Tyll Zybura was even almost the embodiment of the Promoted Fanboy: Even before his first Botenartikeln he introduced own-game assistance on its website "Wind Feder clouds tower", and operates with the Hexalogicon and Borbarad project still two more game assistance sites to DSA.
The only official adventure that he has ever written is alone, "Trombone Hall" - a very ambitious and well playable work that serves above all to initiate Aventurischer events that will be very influential in the coming years. It should be accompanied, according to whose side the 28 Aventurischer messengers 138, but instead is in PDF format for free download.

Katharina Pietsch did their part by playing an adventure competition (in which Tyll Zybura sat on the jury) for the DSA-editors, and operates as before the race win with Tyll Zybura "Wind Tower Feder clouds" with many Fantexten.

Michelle sulfur was indeed since 1995 after five years of cooperation not a member of the DSA editors more, but still worked for the RPG. She wrote numerous articles for the Aventurischer messengers, even after she had looked after him for three years as editor, worked with many game assistance and since its founding in 1990, chief editor of the Standard Thorwal - probably the most important fanzines specifically on DSA.

Her husband, Ragnar sulfur, the editor of the Standard Thorwal was one of the more important personalities for the DSA-letter game. He has written for Ulrich Kiesow the basic "rules for managing a mittelreichischen fief", short feud rules and established, among other things the important Bilstein Convention (which was not held in Bilstein, and therefore a different name).

Except for sulfur Ragnar these people were all united by the project to simplify the so-called Metaplots Aventuria, that is the overarching plot lines that are not only a finished story, but whole cities, regions, or more influence. Many desert plots were started and left there at some point or paused. Mark Wachholz and his colleagues wanted to simplify complete unify übersichtlichmachen,. It focused on plots which were left open by other authors.

We see that the authors which has been lost are all representative of a "DSA from below": dedicated fans, avid adventure competition participants, website operators, fanzine writers, players Letters, enthusiastic researchers in other people's publications.
The objective pursued by Ulrich Kiesow principle, everyone who submitted convincing and courageous contributions to make to a co-authors for DSA, brought out the services of people like these.

"The just want to play" is right to be seen there one desired by Ulisses "consumer mentality of the DSA-Fans", "an increasingly diminishing their own creative potential, a massive loss of interesting unofficial drafts (including, sometimes it comes Volume XZ, since this is all in there … ") and especially declining acceptance for things where not happy making Ulisses emblazoned the logo. This is one cycle of the last demotivated eagerly writing, writing lyrics which still can not find a reader? Why tinker scenarios that no one is playing? "

want to be retired writers, their whole commitment ("heart's blood is type" a word widely read these days) for the cause, because it is the way in which what they have learned to appreciate, to be able to actively embrace seize on. Smooth edges, iron out deficiencies.
With a five-member Editorial Board, to follow the rest of the word, has this mentality is not compatible. The way of thinking "I do not need it good, I need it wednesday 'it is contrary to even jump.

Dirk has recognized this in his article on moon letters, but Ulysses' approach to be justified in a dualism "fans have a great impact on organic vs. developing world. Publishing director reaches out for economic reasons by ". He hopes the fantasy publisher beginner friendliness or the long-term preservation of role in mind:

One such reason might be, for example, "Aventuria be novices friendly, so away with the cross-references to obscure Botenartikel and 21 other products. Due to the reduced requirements are our modules already sold out quickly and no longer part of the backlist. We want a new player does not give the impression that he to acquire all these things (possibly available second hand) must be able to play at DSA. "

[…]
Seen through the eyes of a dealer but I see the need for a "flaring of the underbrush" so that DSA not by aging of its buyers (many of which are only more readers Aventurischer history, no player) completely disappears.

One thing is clear: if DSA work in the old form and economically, "" would, would not come into the FanPro Not having to pass the license! The fresh look of Ulisses is perhaps the only thing that DSA can save long term. And probably can go only by making things differently than before … Aventurienbeben included.

But: DSA has become a niche product, if it was not always a, and is constantly compared to decreasing sales.
The "fresh look" by Ulisses has no reason to look at quality as Tyll Zyburas reveals insight:

The problem is that sales of DSA products are so small obviously and the number of all buyers is so high that the quality demands of the fans, the wishes and demands, the praise and the criticism that you received during the public reception (reviews , posts can be filtered out), can be correlated in any way with the sale of the products. Poorly received products usually have received no significant poorer sales than good.

The publisher feels that is no objective, quantifiable pressure that forces him to make himself think about the long-term quality of its products. This does not automatically mean that this does not happen, but it means that other things are important: minimizing expenditure, output maximization. For the publisher it is indeed a simple calculation: The DSA license has cost so many, is so long and so available, so at this time to the maximum possible revenues do with it. If this turnover is low anyway and the publisher has to rely heavily on fresh money to be quality (editorial, content consistency check, voting) and sustainability (long-term planning, overall design work, constant communication with authors and fans, 'care' of the authors strain) even less important because both are very very expensive for an extremely complex product such as DSA.

This is in part understandable, but the other terribly tragic - because there is an extended editorial, which could actually be just responsible for these two elements (apart from editing). But the publishers are solely responsible for transfers to the permanent core of editors - in addition to their actual activity as authors for pressing game assistance. This can not work.

As for me personally it particularly disturbing is that the publisher does not believe a quality initiative to increase its sales on a broad basis (not just through more products in less time). […] DSA sold somehow always the same, so you take, what you can get. The entrepreneur has perhaps justified, but it is not a wise move to me. And for the DSA game world, in my opinion, really bad.

Cut off old beards is certainly not what does Ulisses, on the contrary: In times Participate in which the increase everywhere and a say, everyone is constantly asked how it always is to continue making and constant talk of it is that the consumer and producer is blurred and the boundaries between creators and consumers, there is nothing paradoxical to centralize decisions to marginalize and freelancers to minimize the commitment of fans.
A product that has lived as DSA Join more than its competition from, straight down into that time in this hands-potential re-Tignale place more means to throw his appeal from the window.

can beginner-friendly makes Ulisses DSA also no, because as one of the contributions of sulfur look at Alveran.org and wind Feder Cloud Tower, fought the publisher (probably unintentionally, but by no means inefficient) any effort by fans to offer free support for players want to enrich their gaming experience or explore new DSA publications. Free additional material is among the most important Einstiegsmotivatoren, which has a role.
Also the Metaplotteam would have led to some trouble to a strong improvement in clarity Aventurischer events. Effort that is not paid directly, but would improve the response to the question "What happened Aventuria right now?" Dramatically - an important concern, especially for beginners. Whether this simplification will be still remains to be seen - now appears questionable, who could make them at all.

Especially since it has long been someone who, like no one else stood up for better ease of entry of DSA and always wanted a simple gameplay rules Now: Florian Watch Don.
As he said to myself, half a year before he signed with the DSA-Editors:

There are about ten years in Germany is not really interesting role playing, with which you can start playing just as it was before. […]
Such a project, with which one beginner again brings to the table easier to role play would be an important project for the next time.

Florian Don-look has become his - like Mark Wachholz (cited above) notes for his own colleagues - and the most surprising exit may never expressed in public, a behavior which is indicative of size.
But Thomas Romans has more right than he realizes when he writes:

Florian's expertise as a reminder for beginners […] kindness and understanding will be missed.

The role play DSA remains complicated and einsteigerunfreundlich, it punishes unaufgerufene participation, and that with the continuously declining sales (and, incidentally, is also created sexist).
Not a problem - if it were only that.

If it is not.

New entrants are expected for DSA DSA primarily by the new computer games: The "Flashpoint" series and "Demonicon.
This hope is based on the observation that many who have come in the nineties to DSA, the entry on the computer then found.
Based on their popularity can see how much interest there was always at an additional DSA-computer game. On the basis of disappointment over the broken hope Projects "LMK - Legends of the Magi wars" and "Armalion" who wanted to meet the one you can see how big the skepticism was further announcements.

On the Ratcon 2006 a presentation instead become a classic: Bernd Beyreuther, head of the Berlin-based software developer Radon Labs, Olgierd Cypra, Community Manager of the Hamburg publisher dtp, and some authors put together the DSA project "Flashpoint before. Although the computer RPG was announced for months, but here were first unveiled key details about the past year in the development stage flagship.
Surprisingly there were other revelations: 1999 (that was five years before "World Of Warcraft") is a two-million budget was spent on developing a MMORPG with the DSA license. His attitude after a year Stefan Blanck brought to found Chromatrix, the GmbH, which developed the DSA-phone games and browser games. In addition, 2004 was a Myranor computer game will be published on the 2001 was even a trailer produced, but which (just to Ratcon 2006) as the game itself never came to publication.

To support the synergy effects, put it, "Flashpoint" for its publication in August 2008 at the current DSA-based rules. The scores for the computer game were impressed, sympathetic, players reviews, the sales enormous. The publisher dtp complained but the modest success of the international version. The long-planned console port fell out eventually.
Radon Labs dtp and agreed on another computer game, which should increase the success of "Flashpoint" - "Drakensang: The River of Time" was released in February 2010 and immediately attracted the development of add-ons according to which, under the name " published Phileassons secret "during the Cologne Gamescom in August 2010.

In the wave of the first reports of success for "Flashpoint" in August 2008 announced the also in Berlin seated Publisher TGC that its in-house developer Silver Style also to a computer role-playing with DSA license worked - "Demonicon should appear 2010th

Just in October 2008, when "Drakensang" only two months old, was a message stunned the world's largest fair for games, the Essen Game Convention 2008, all DSA experts: Omniamedia, a hitherto unknown company had, by the Significant Fantasy GbR the DSA license allows - to shoot a feature film. "Svartland" was scheduled for an appearance 2011th

In the anniversary year 2009 you could get the impression that for the 25 years of age may become DSA after the last years of the crack ail new heyday, perhaps more brilliant than it was the nineties.
The German role-playing and fantasy in general German again seemed to have a strong future ahead.

Then in November 2009 announced the setting of the film project "Svartland", "because the licensees have not used the film license within the time limit.
Thereupon the license of a DSA-film at the KSM GmbH was given, but on their project since no new messages have been reported. Last, the new licensees have sought a film crew and investors.

In May 2010, just three months after the release of Drakensang: The River of Time "and even during the development of the add-on" Phileassons secret, "Radon Labs filed for bankruptcy.
Bernd Beyreuther said initially, "the sales of Drakensang do not play a direct role," said the publisher dtp But, the negotiations for a third Drakensang had failed because "the recent titles have been adopted in the German market very well, which alone is not enough for a million-dollar development budget einzuspielen again. "
Radon Labs was acquired by Bigpoint, a developer and publisher of Hamburger browser games, and from that in "Bigpoint Berlin renamed. On the Gamescom in Cologne in August 2010 gave a Bernd Beyreuther (shortly commented here) interview about his company. There he said:

We have great reviews [for "Drakensang: get at War"], we have even a top-rankings delivered. But the sales have not made it back and forward. And it is clear: If the numbers would have been good, it would have run with Radon Labs differently.

[…] Well, our product ["Drakensang"] was beautiful. We liked it. But it has not sold.

From the background of the DSA world Aventuria Bernd Beyreuther speaking as a "rigid world," a "strait-jacket":

We have already had a hard time at Riverside, we are constantly pushed to the limits of the system and the background world. Above all, sit on one side, the authors create the world. The license holder to collect the coal, sitting on a different page. And that's almost tragic. That was a problem.

This sounds amazingly similar to the things said Guido Henkel and over again about his time as Poduzent the North Country trilogy, as in this format the PC Games of 2002:

After three parts and sold hundreds of thousands of games, Attic was financially still on the spot. At the conclusion part of the trilogy, Shadows over Riva, Guido said today as examples: "We thought we finally make the Mordsreibach - especially because we had just completed a deal with Topware of us were three million dollars cash in hand. But that was at the end pay directly through to the bank to pay off our loans. "From the Attic rest had as usual a large part to the licensor. Guido finally resigned. "I thought," Hey, we have the number-one seller in Germany, and it is not possible to make money with it? What we do wrong! "Five or six years is nothing but the black eye - I was fed up and wanted to do what else to invest our money in a separate series."

Although Bigpoint Berlin now on behalf of the new parent company makes a Drakensang as a browser MMORPG, there will be no longer connect to this DSA or the background world Aventuria.
For Bernd Beyreuther and colleagues DSA will be in future no longer an issue.

If the development of DSA computer games generally associated with insoluble problems?
Still "is Demonicon" announced by TGC. In July 2010, however, were the two founders and CEO of software company from Markus Malti and Carsten Strehse from it. Although the latter was instrumental in the development of "Demonicon" involved, was detained at the announcement - but now with the already-delayed publication in 2011.
A few days later, filed for bankruptcy and TGC. Currently we insist that "would Demonicon" developed. The swelling in over a year already general skepticism about it in the face of events, but has risen sharply.

In the development of Drakensang: The River of Time "Radon Labs put a lot more than the previous emphasis on cooperating with DSA-authors, in order to achieve integration with other media.
The result would be a series of articles in itself worth as examples Florian Don-vision novel "The Ferdoker parchment," the backing band "father of waters", the browser game, "Seeds of Wrath", the solo adventure "Eilif treasure" and the group adventure "Hort serve in the detail ".

If this synergy of fresh air for DSA?
The role-Verlag Ulisses regemäßig published in high frequency material in DSA astonishing punctuality - the quality of products but is sometimes criticized heavily. A result of "I do not need it good, I need it wednesday 'mentality?
The latest personnel decisions arouse also clear that they wanted to produce a "DSA from above" and the participation of everyone, for the DSA was essential since time immemorial, go back.
The official publications for the actual role, however, are now, unlike in the early days, only of role playing in stores for sale, and even there the availability of increasingly diluted.

About browser or mobile phone games are not likely to find new players to DSA, for the media are too different - rather, the synergy here works in reverse. The novels have disappeared in recent years also made of the fantasy shelves of regular stores: the demand is just too low now, as that department stores and bookstores still interpret DSA novels.

The DSA-movie "Svartland is failed and the replacement project of the film is KSM after nine months of licensing even less well known than" Svartland "already to his notice.
The DSA film would have some possibilities, but that someone would make him the first place.

Of DSA for television or DVD release has been for years to hear any more.

The computer games are sold with accompanying DSA basic regulations, and if the effect of the North Country trilogy still occurs, there is some potential in them. But Radon Labs, now called Bigpoint Berlin, none will make more and TGC's "Demonicon" there is much more speculation than tangible material, its original publication date is already passé.

But what is the significance of the already available "Drakensang" games for the RPG? In my conversation with Florian said Don look a year ago, the then editor of the DSA members me this:

If we table today Roleplayers asks how they came to DSA, tell very many - especially by those who are already longer there - that she was by the previous games, the "Nordland Trilogy" have been added.
On the other hand it is true that by "Flashpoint", which indeed has been a while now on the market, no measurable increase in sales is taking place in print role-playing.

No measurable increase.

looks after heyday of the German role is not at all any more. Of course this has to answer by far not only Ulisses and of course none of this is the result of the personnel upheavals in the DSA office.

But DSA is at a turning point. With sagging sales and turning away players, while failing left and right further DSA projects, no one succeeds, the turnaround can be introduced with the new prospects and DSA itself, the flagship of German and German role-playing fantasy, sinks into obscurity.

That's the change, the DSA is exposed in these times.

[Dark Savant]

If that comes with English (i.e. English subtitles/text), I'm so buying it.

Unfortunately if you go through some of the videos on Polish drakensang site
http://www.drakensang.pl/

you can clearly see that everything is in Polish (including UI), only recorded voices in intro movie is in English. Also German documentaries on separate DVD have English subtitles.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Another article from the above mentioned source, processed through google translations ("Sulfur" is an actual second name here ! - And odd is that Google translations translated "Drakensang" as "Flashpoint" ???) :

[Source : http://zivilschein.wordpress.com/2010/08/26/wir-mochten-drakensang-aber-zu-wenige-haben-es-gekauft/ ]

Normally there is no link to each article without commenting, but in my research for the current series of articles on the breaks at DSA, I came across an interview published yesterday, which led to the recent buffed.de Gamescom 2010 in Cologne, with Bernd Beyreuther has.
Bernd Beyreuther was one of the two founders and managers of the Berlin software house Radon Labs and was with his colleague André Blechschmidt has been involved in its predecessor firm Terra Tools, where he developed the strategy game "Urban Assault" has helped to develop.
In Radon Labs, he was the creative force behind "Project Nomads" and "Flashpoint" games, but had to share the responsibility as a company director and the insolvency of the company in May 2010.

After Radon Labs was acquired by the online game developer Bigpoint is to develop and license the next without DSA Drakensang as a browser game, he spoke in unusually plain language in an interview with the online gaming magazine buffed.de on the past events.
Anyone who is interested in Drakensang, DSA or game design in general is likely to gain from this interview enlightening insights.

I quote at this point, some comments, a few particularly sensitive places as a taster:

Drakensang is an online game.

The last few weeks before the bankruptcy were really nerve-jangling. 28 May we did not know who on 1 June will be our employer.

In principle, it was only once a "Clash of the Cultures". It makes no picture at all, how different the business models are, how different the whole mentality and the modes of production are. Since two completely different worlds collide.

This and the previous quote to throw some light on how much Radon Labs was involved in the cooperation with Bigpoint really interested and how much of what now lies before the "Bigpoint Berlin" referred to the development team, to do with his previous performances had.

We have great reviews [for "Drakensang: get at War"], we have even a top-rankings delivered. But the sales have not made it back and forward. And it is clear: If the numbers would have been good, it would have run with Radon Labs differently.

"Die in beauty" was the wording that was in the room. We want Drakensang, but too few people have bought.

These two quotes read quite remarkable given the many weeks that have brought both Drakensang games in the front ranks of the German sales charts, the prices have retracted them, and the success stories, the developers and publishers both national and on international paragraphs have supplied.
What were the expectations of most of these actually already considerable achievements?

We had also a console port or the like in the head before the bankruptcy came.

Write down: Drakensang on the console is dead and buried. The port was for many years as a project in the air, but was never announced. Now she is out of the world.

We have already had a hard time at Riverside, we are constantly pushed to the limits of the system and the background world. Above all, sit on one side, the authors create the world. The license holder to collect the coal, sitting on a different page. And that's almost tragic. That was a problem.

The other is the rigid world. An example: We want a final boss and that Answin mouth of ravens, the classic villain par excellence. Was not because of being revised, especially for a book series. Since the character is completely redefined, perhaps he had a bad childhood and is only so nasty … no matter, so we could not fit in any case Answin into play. And that's just one of several examples. The rules about when we were also a DSA Drakensang 3 with license not use it again. And we had also already planned to leave the continent Aventuria, precisely in order to escape the tight corset.

This all sounds very hopeful regarding future license games German roleplaying. Not specifically in Beyreuther and his colleagues - other developers will experience even noticed this too.

We have created a product in 2005, with a focus on offline on single player on the cinematic narrative and reinbewegt us in a niche. Well, our product was beautiful. We liked it. But it has not sold.

Offline, single player, cinematic storytelling. Ten years ago you would have thought for a recipe for total breaks. Today this is called a niche. "
And again: "Flashpoint" was nice, but it has not sold. " Hum.

Here is the interview in full text, including images.

(For comparison, I refer again to this Article, the PC games that commented Guido Henkel, who co-created the North Country trilogy, critical of those days.)

Update: Michelle sulfur, author of the biographical Answin novels, observed in the Alveran.org forums, Bernd Beyreuther presentation regarding the background of the world, especially the boss by crows Answin mouth. As to Alveran.org seem to disappear now increased contributions here Vollzitat:

I must say that the statement of the publisher confuses me. They had then contacted me, and I have them decidedly disclosed, in which direction my planning. Retrieved from "not compatible" out of the question (and nasty childhood not know how the reader should Answin. I must now speculate whether the responsible parties have at Drakensang my comments then do not read or not understood). I merely made it clear that you have a DSA-known villains like Answin, which indeed has a certain caliber and an aura, should not stuffed into a 08/15-Story, and that I consider it problematic to him for dramatic reasons, yet pour another defeat - even to one in which he again sent does not act much. That it forbids him to dispose of before the final JDF "," should understand. But I also had made proposals of how to tackle the cause, for example, so that all are satisfied, and would have been willing to steer a KG.
I have heard from the publisher then nothing more …
Now talk about a "narrowness of the game world" or a "lack of mobility of the authors' seems to odd.

Possibly, Bernd Beyreuther refers to his criticism on someone other than Michelle sulfur, but the Answin novels seem to be but rather not to have been in the path.

[lef]

@Alrik: Thanks for the links.

[Fenris]

Wow, the boring DraSa 2-AddOn might be the Beginning of a massive Decline of the whole TDE-Universe…

[Dwagginz]

Unfortunately if you go through some of the videos on Polish drakensang site
http://www.drakensang.pl/

you can clearly see that everything is in Polish (including UI), only recorded voices in intro movie is in English. Also German documentaries on separate DVD have English subtitles.

Turnip boxes :( Ah well, I'll just have to sit and wait patiently.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Wow, the boring DraSa 2-AddOn might be the Beginning of a massive Decline of the whole TDE-Universe…

Well, I don't think so, because things have been beginning to roll on much earlier.

But indeed - TDE appears to be at some kind of "turning point".

[Dwagginz]

The problem with TDE is that no one seems to be bothered with taking it outside of Germany. Fanpro did release some English TDE books from one of the previous editions, but there were only about 2-3 books and an adventure pack or two. If Chromatix or whomever it is who owns the rights to TDE got some sense, they'd bring it out properly into other markets. Dark Heresy, D&D, Pathfinder et al seem to be doing fine, so why not go "Let's bring out TDE!"?

I'd like to try TDE, but it's hard to get hold of the books, let alone find a group to play with. Start a marketing campaign, get it out into the public eye, and use the success of the game to fuel the P&P game and vice versa. If The Witcher can overcome the unknown property problem, so can TDE.

[Fenris]

Well, if the apprehensions of the employes that left (or were fired) are true then their new strategie is to massproduce crap as fast as possible since their loyal fanbase buys everything anyways.
Phileassons Secret is certainly created with exactly that mindset...

Really no need to expand - there are already enough bad RPGs on the international Market :)

[Alrik Fassbauer]

The problem with TDE is that no one seems to be bothered with taking it outside of Germany.

This is actually one of the major problems I see myself.

And - I think you can still get the English-language rule set book of the 4th edition somewhere ... both at the RPC and the "Spiel International" fair here in Germany this book can sometimes be seen.

I think the best luck you can have with shops from de Nederlande - Dutch shops. I'm not sure, but I think they still have English-language material - according to some of them appearing every now and then at both events.

www.amzon.com lists these as being available :

Basic rules set : http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Eye-Basic-Rules-FPR10450/dp/1932564020/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283766674&sr=8-2

World Of Aventuria : http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Eye-World-Aventuria-FPR15002/dp/1932564063/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283766674&sr=8-6

This seems to be a small collection of one or two Pen & paper group adventures : http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Tower-Witching-Hours-FPR15001/dp/1932564055/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283766743&sr=1-3

These are the only entries i could find.

[Elwro]

Well, you can get the Player's Handbook in English which comes with the Polish CE of RoT :D

(Is some sort of a DM guide required, too?)

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Well, there is a kind of guide, but it's not really required.

You can do without, I think. But I mast say that I really can't be sure, because I've never been a game master.

(DM = "dungeon master" ? Or what ?)

[Elwro]

Yeah, I used the "DM" abbreviation since it was the standard for AD&D editions to have a Player's Handbook and a Dungeon Master's Guide.

I wonder how much info is in the Handbook; looks like a small leaflet in the picture. I wouldn't be surprised if they're planning to release TDE in Polish and this would be some sort of a promo to get more people interested before the translations are done.

[Dwagginz]

This is actually one of the major problems I see myself.

And - I think you can still get the English-language rule set book of the 4th edition somewhere … both at the RPC and the "Spiel International" fair here in Germany this book can sometimes be seen.
*snip*
I've seen three or four on DriveThruRPG.com (like this (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=744&it=1), and one or two on Amazon.co.uk (the selection is smaller than Amazon.com), but the brand name just isn't out there. We have a fraction of the books that the German markets have, and there's no advertising or marketing of the series beyond the appalling marketing for the CRPGs.

Even back with the first three CRPGs, they weren't marketed as The Dark Eye (I believe), and were named Realms of Arkania. I think the German title is something like the Nordslandliedlungen or something :P But even then I'm sure they were marketed as Das Schwarze Auge (To give it its correct name).

There's no reason that I can see as to why they (Chromatix, right?) aren't marketing TDE in English-speaking markets. If they say it's a lower-magic, more medieval, more complex game to D&D 4e, they've got the attention of a lot of D&D players. I much prefer the setting of TDE to D&D, and all I've seen is the odd book cover and Drakensang (Well, come on, you can't see much in RoA :p).

TDE is, as far as I can see, thematically more in touch with older games and settings like early D&D, The Bard's Tale and so forth. Should make a nice change with all this Warhammer and Forgotten Realms nonsense!

[skavenhorde]

TDE is, as far as I can see, thematically more in touch with older games and settings like early D&D, The Bard's Tale and so forth. Should make a nice change with all this Warhammer and Forgotten Realms nonsense!

Warhammer nonsense? Where are you playing these Warhammer rpg computer games? I have almost every single Warhammer computer game ever made excluding a few really old titles like Heroquest plus a ton of other tabletop/board games based in the Warhammer universe and none of them are rpgs. Warhammer games are a strategy wargame first and foremost. There are roleplaying aspects to many of their games, but no one in their right mind would compare them to rpgs like TDE.

It's just recently that they've been making more Warhammer computer games. For years I would be lucky if they released one every couple of years or so. They do have that horrible game Warhammer online, but that has more in common with WoW than any real rpg. God I hate that game.

The FIRST roleplaying game that I've heard of being made in the Warhammer universe (and I've looked for years) is Warhammer 40k: Space Marine. They're billing it as an action RPG so I'm expecting a Diablo type game.

There is an odd little P&P Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying Game, but I never knew anyone who actually played that and you never see any computer game made from those rules.

As for Forgotten Realms, I couldn't agree more. I would love to see a different setting. Any setting other than The Sword Coast would be a nice change of pace. Perhaps in the Darksun universe this time around.

[Dwagginz]

I was referring to Warhammer as a setting and universe, skavenhorde, although I was half-referring to Warhammer Online, the books and the P&P game

[skavenhorde]

I thought you did, but how can you compare Warhammer to any rpg game or to the popularity of Forgotten Realms? It's not even close to being that popular. Even the P&P is hardly ever mentioned or played. I don't even know if they're still printing it anymore. I could be wrong. I don't follow that portion of Games Workshop at all.

The setting for computer games are finally getting followers, but they are a different crowd than rpgers. I just thought it odd that you would lump a setting that was an underdog for years and years in with Forgotten Realms.

The books I can't say anything about them since I never read any(I thought it would be all killing and blood), but a fellow rpgwatcher told me that the ones he's read are pretty good.

Anyways, I want to live where you're at where there are tons of Warhammer products available. I have to travel to the south end of Taiwan to even find one Warhammer shop. :p

[Dwagginz]

I live in England, which is where Games Workshop is from ;) To me, Warhammer's just as well known and as popular, if not more so, than D&D.

Either way, I'm not comparing it to Drakensang (and other RPGs) based on whether it's a cRPG or not. I'm comparing the setting of Warhammer to that of D&D and TDE. There's plenty of official Warhammer art and "visual creations" (models, games etc) that give you a good idea of what Warhammer's setting is like. It's dark, gritty and quite "mature" compared to the seemingly more light-hearted setting for TDE.

[Elwro]

In Poland, almost everyone interested in RPGs in the 90s played Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay; it was the first foreign system that got translated and was heavily promoted. (I still have fond memories of WFRP sessions, even though the mechanics bordered on idiocy sometimes.) Hell, now I remember I GM'd the whole Enemy Within campaign :D DnD only took off later on here.

[skavenhorde]

Unfortunately, it wasn't like that in California. The tabletop game was quite popular, but it still had competition from other boardgames, but not so much from other type of miniature wargames. I remember my friend playing Talisman and Car Wars forever. He didn't even want to look at any other game.

Either way, now that you said your from England I kinda get why you would be tired of that universe, but give us Americans (and some Asian friends of mine) a chance to get sick of the setting too ;)

@Elwro I had no idea that WFRPG was popular anywhere. I heard of a few campaigns being run, but none of my friends were that interested in it. Well, I'm glad it was at least popular somewhere. Still I would of preferred the miniature game over a traditional P&P. What can I say I like painting my own army. Lately though it's become too much of a pain. You have to cut each arm, leg, head, torso and legs out of the plastic set. Then attatch them together. Great for customization, but a pain in the butt.

Anyways, sorry about the derail and thanks for the info on Warhammer in England and Poland. I know it's popular in England because I read once that Warhammer Fantasy Battle is more popular in Europe(though I didn't realize just how much in demand it is. I figured it was like in the US, a niche product that a few hobbiest played) and them yanks prefer Warhammer 40k. Personally I love the formations and moral of WFB. W40k is ok, but it's a little too much like Hitler has become the Emporer and the Space Marines go around cleansing the galaxy. Plus, there are no freaking formations and they killed my skaven (YOU BASTARD).

I promise this was the last post of my ramblings of Warhammer Past and Present. Thanks again for the info, it's quite interesting since I'm thinking about visiting England and Scotland next summer. I know where my first stop will be :) I hope their prices are a little cheaper than what I'm paying now.

[Dwagginz]

It likely isn't. Games Workshop stuff is ridiculously expensive over here.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

This is imho quite interesting : TDE books (adventures, mostly) are sold out much, much faster than predicted.

This blog describes, why : TDE things are selling much better now …

http://blog.ulisses-spiele.de/2010/09/ausverkaufte-dsa-abenteuer-nachdrucke-pdfs-der-mythos-um-auflagengrosen-und-verkaufszahlen/

Google translation of that blog :

Edit : A few notes : Correct "self-style" by "Of own mercy", which would be the literal translation. It's of a group trying to establish themselves as a factor of power within a disturbed region. So, "Self-Style" is a correct translation in its own way - to describe what this adventure is about - only that it doesn't hold the "style" of TDE titles.

And "Castle Stone Drag" is simply nonsense. "Castle Dragenstein" is the title of the castle itself.



One or two players will have noticed that some DSA adventures are sold out in no time and no longer is. This fact is also not escaped us, we want to apologize to all interested parties who have recently looked into the tube, and explain how it came about.

The truth is that many are sold out DSA adventure. Many of them have been sold out even in a very short time. It is also true that this is natural for fans who do not already have this adventure is not good, especially when these adventures can then only have to buy at ridiculously high prices on Ebay.

Why did it happen so?

do has taken over as Ulisses license for DSA, we have looked at the old circulation figures, sales figures and the remaining stocks very closely to determine in what conditions we print adventures in the future.
It was our intention that an adventure for a few years should be available. Not forever, but not only for eight months. Of course, we have not used any average figures, but a consideration in the amount of pressure requirements such as entry-points, campaign, Metaplot considered.

This edition sizes have until a few months, works quite well (with a few exceptions such as "self-styled" or "Black Oak").

Suddenly there is now such that new adventure and even new versions of classics like "Dust & Stars" are already sold out after a relatively short time. Is the fact that we have reduced the requirements again? Is it because we deliberately do so to sell the new products better?

No - it does not. namely, that DSA will sell for some time again significantly better than they did a few years ago was the case - the reason for this is a very enjoyable.

This is not just for the adventure but also for the rule, regional and source volumes. Only we have reprinted these books has always been (with a few exceptions), but in adventures, we thought that this is probably not necessary or economically viable.

But now we are running out in record time, the adventure, and this is of course the time when we look at the circulation figures again and draw conclusions had to: In the future, we are generally the circulation figures of DSA publications increased in order to ensure a longer continuous delivery !

What, in principle, only one means - DSA currently runs as good than it has been years, and the various prophecies of doom or fears on the subject are fortunately wrong.

Oh yes - before I forget - we are reprinting some of the sold-out adventure, so no one is forced to get them for high prices on Ebay. These include first of all include:

Thunder & Storm
Pilgrim paths
By orcs and humans
The refuge
The curse of castle stone drag
Dust and stars
Self-styled
In the shadow Simyalas

These adventures are not all available the day after his return, but over the next few months and again after appearing in the role-playing game shops.

We will also offer to our PDFs from the end of the year to expand. We improve the very reasonable for a PDF-shop necessary software and infrastructure - once that is done, there will be more DSA regulations, source books and adventures to be offered in digital form.

This is highly interesting - because it might mean that Radon Labs died an untimely death. Had they been able to keep on, they might have been riding this wave one day.

[Dwagginz]

What actually happened to Radon Labs? Did they just lose a lot of money and were then rescued by Bigpoint?

I have a feeling some of the blame lies with dtp. Boo, dtp.

[Fenris]

As far as I understand the rumors, Radon is gone and Bigpoint has only hired some of the employes and bought the name.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Radon Labs had financial difficulties, which they hoped could be solved by the sales of Drakensang 2.

But Drakensang 2 didn't sell at all than predicted, and dtp decided not to fund them another Drakensang 3 game.

Thus, without any further money, Radon Labs had to file insolvency (German laws are very strict regarding that), which left them tumbling.

Big Point bought them - thus helping them out of that financial trouble. But Radon Labs as we know it is actually gone now.

Ex - Radon Labs is now called "Bigpoint Berlin".

But note that Bigpoint bought not everything of Radon Labs. A few employees didn't get get to Bigpoint - we don't know if they did it out of free will or simply because Bigpoint didn't want to buy all of them.

The lead designer (or at least one of them, as far as I understood it) was one of those who didn't go to Bigpoint.

Don't know who's getting the proceedings from the sales of all Drakensang games now - but I suspect/assume that since Bigpoint bought them, they get this money now.

There'll be a Drakensang Online without any TDE in it, due to lack of a license.
It will be an action game, as far as we know (and we know very little about it).

Note : The last game Radon Labs published before they had to file insolvency is the old school TBS game of "Future Wars". More on it here : http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10428 It is said to be highly moddable.

[Ergonpandilus]

But Drakensang 2 didn't sell at all than predicted, and dtp decided not to fund them another Drakensang 3 game.

Making game available for everyone besides Jerries would have helped with the sales. ;)

[Dwagginz]

So, basically, Radon Labs had problems that dtp didn't help solve at all? Excellent work, dtp.

But thanks for that, Alrik. I had no idea that happened, as I thought Radon Labs were simply just bought out.

[Gorath]

It's not that easy. DraSa: River of Time didn't sell in Germany. Undeservedly so. Talks between dtp & Radon Labs about a 3rd DraSa didn't come to a positive conclusion. You can't realistically expect a publisher (or the fund they're cooperating with) to allocate a serious 7-digit budget to a project if they don't think it's economically feasible. That's normal business. RL should have foreseen the problems. Now they were unable to secure a follow-up project. It's confirmed they pitched for the Sacred 3 contract, but didn't get the job.
A studio with 100 people can't exist without at least one big project. So they shrunk, worked on the add-on and tried to find an investor.
It seems Bigpoint didn't buy RL. I think they bought some IP and tech, and took over 30-something people (already increased to a couple more). RL as a company was closed though.
The timing certainly didn't help. Before the economic crisis, or rather immediately after the DraSa release, it's not unlikely they could have made an exit from a position of strength.

All independent studios have this sword of Damokles above their heads. One flopped game or missed follow-up project can kill the studio.

[Dwagginz]

But you can argue that dtp, as the publisher, didn't help the cause at all. In the UK, as an example, they did absolutely no marketing for Drakensang. It had no presence in online stores (It was there, but it was something you could glaze over without noticing), and there was no focus on it.

TRoT was at GamesCom and E3 (dtp booth), and no news site really gave it a glance or a mention. I think I actually saw more information about 1C releases than I did anything by dtp.

I do think it's a bad time for gaming, what with the economy and so forth, but I don't think it's that bad. Games are selling in bigger and bigger quantities, and there's an increasing demand (As far as I can tell) for games like Drakensang. I've often seen it mentioned on the BioWare boards when people are asking for games like Dragon Age, and it's rarely something negative.

dtp are the publisher, and they're the ones responsible for getting it into other territories. So far it's had Italian, Spanish, German and I believe Polish releases. They're missing out on the biggest one - English! We've said a few times on the dtp board that if nothing else, they should put it up on Steam and/or similar platforms just to try to recoup some money from it. They have a product they want to sell, they have a product we want to buy. Sitting on it like they are is not making the situation any better.

I think. :)

[DArtagnan]

Frankly, I can't see a game like Drakensang truly succeed with a team of 100 people.

The market just isn't big enough. Maybe it didn't take that long to create, but I saw nothing in the game to indicate the team had been that big.

Seems like way too many people for a project like that.

[Gorath]

They also worked on smaller games - but the DS market crashed.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

But you can argue that dtp, as the publisher, didn't help the cause at all.

Yes, a lot of fans are bitter about that.

The interesting thing is, that a head of dtp said in an recent interview (http://www.pcgames.de/Drakensang-Am-Fluss-der-Zeit-PC-220388/News/Drakensang-Publisher-dtp-zur-Radon-Labs-Insolvenz-Deutschland-alleine-reicht-nicht-748021/) that they wanted or even "had" to expand into the international market, to get the costs back, because the German market alone was so (relatively) small.

And THEN they didn't market games outside of Germany that much.

To bitter fans this is nothing but double-speak.



More or less related (but on Adventure games, and from 2005) : http://www.gameboomers.com/interviews/dtpkellnerinterview.htm
It sheds some light in the internationlity of adventure games.
(This interview is in English.)

[Thrasher]

There is a scaling argument.
Assumption - If x sells for $D in Germany, then it will sell for n x $D internationally.

Did DS 1 sell a lot more than DS 2 in Germany? If not, why did they sell DS1 internationally in English but not DS 2?

[Elwro]

Alrik, are the "DSA is selling very well" data from Germany only? Or did the RPG system succeed in its English version, too?

[Dwagginz]

Alrik, are the "DSA is selling very well" data from Germany only? Or did the RPG system succeed in its English version, too?
The lack of TDE material is either due to poor sales or because no one is pushing it.

Hint: It really looks like it's the latter.

[Elwro]

There is lack of TDE material? As in 'new' material? In Germany? I didn't know.

[Gorath]

There is a scaling argument.
Assumption - If x sells for $D in Germany, then it will sell for n x $D internationally.
I've read a statement by a local publisher that nowadays a German game should make close to 90% of its sales outside of Germany. (He didn't mention the much lower earnings per unit though.)

Another interesting piece of info:
The German PC market is almost exactly as big as the US PC market.

Did DS 1 sell a lot more than DS 2 in Germany? If not, why did they sell DS1 internationally in English but not DS 2?
DraSa sold at least twice as much as DraSa 1.5. If not more.
dtp didn't sell DraSa internationally. Their partners did. It's impossible to say from an outside perspective whether dtp demands too much for the interntaional RoT rights or whether the prospective partners demand such a low price that dtp is not willing to accept it.

[Gorath]

There is lack of TDE material? As in 'new' material? In Germany? I didn't know.

The books sell out within a short time. Then you can only get them on ebay for ridiculous prices.

[Dwagginz]

Oh, I forgot to clarify. I was talking about the English language releases (Which are labelled The Dark Eye) rather than the German ones (Which are Das Schwarze Auge). I use TDE to refer to the English rather than the German.

[Thrasher]

DraSa sold at least twice as much as DraSa 1.5. If not more.

So the expectation is that DS 1.5 would make about half as much as DS 1 internally as well. Seems like that would have been enough to keep most happy...

[Alrik Fassbauer]

The books sell out within a short time. Then you can only get them on ebay for ridiculous prices.

Yes. This is exactly what currently happens with TDE pen & paper role playing material = books.

A TDE international market regarding pen & paper products ( the blog entry I linked above talks of nothing but this ! ) is practicall non-existent. No-one ever did something for it within the last decade. The only exceptions were the basic rules and a few adventures that appeared in English around the time of the introduction of the 4th edition.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Wanted to push this up ... because I'm interested in opinions on that by those who are playing it right now ...

[Ergonpandilus]

Lot of speech about the ruleset and TDE world, but do you think that Dragon Age was success because the ruleset?

[Turjan]

Wanted to push this up … because I'm interested in opinions on that by those who are playing it right now …
If you refer to the TDE ruleset, people are not interested because it's too similar to old D&D, while being more complicated. Plus, the magic rules were never released in English, which made the whole English release kind of pointless.

If you meant Drakensang: River of Time, it's only known by insiders. Games that get only released for PC have a hard time in the US, anyway. At least if the publisher is not Blizzard.

[Dasale]

Wanted to push this up … because I'm interested in opinions on that by those who are playing it right now …

I didn't knew all of that, too few sells, bankrupt, and death of the series.

It's quite sad but the reasons aren't obvious. A first point is I think the spread released with delayed release in some countries is a difficult art to master. I feel it's an erroneous approach because it diminished a lot the effect of the game release.

I'm sure they had very good reason to do that but it's still not a good approach if you don't have a powerful com army at your service in different countries to support and push separate and delayed releases.

The second point is it's just too ambitious for a first game team. I think the team behind is important and its fame can help a lot a game release. So a game mainly pushed by a dev team should not be too ambitious for the first game of the team. The point is to built first an aura of fame among the fans before attempting something more ambitious with a much bigger cost.

The comparison with DAO is extremely difficult because it's just too different worlds, even if the games have a quite close approach and also if obviously Bioware borrowed some of the best idea.

A much more pertinent comparison is The Witcher. Here too we have probably a too big target for the first game of a dev team. But beside to be very well achieved and despite probably a bit more significant flaws than Drakensang, they achieved some singular design points making the Witcher a quite unique game in the whole RPG history. Drakensang only targeted a very solid design with no flaws and many good points but also nothing so unique beside the use of the Dark Eyes background and rule set.

Clearly has already stated here the Dark Eyes isn't really a marketing argument apart in Germany, because even if in past it got a good distribution in some other countries, in all those countries this trademark has just disappeared during too many years and the old fame has mostly vanished in those countries.

So it ends with a solid RPG with many good points but no amazing characteristic or singular feature that the marketing could exploit well, for professional or for fans. On this base, a too ambitious budget that should have stick to German market base to build some fame first. Also I'm not sure it's a good idea to target German language for first games of a team, English language seems a lot more pertinent, I wonder is this would really killed the game in Germany if the game had a mood and feel of a sort of mildly indie game.

More and more computer gaming is looking on how making games with much lower budgets and Drakensang is to be add in the stacks of example that big budgets are a difficult approach.

I know that all of that is pure arguing and this could be part of the main causes of the final failure, or not, or pure bad luck, or anything else.