Ultima IV - Unplayable @ The Brainy Gamer

[Dhruin]

The Brainy Gamer writes on the recent results when he asked his students to play Ultima IV (http://www.brainygamer.com/the_brainy_gamer/2010/09/unplayable.html), which makes for an interesting - if disccouraging - read:
They had five days to play U4, and I asked them to make as much progress as they could in that time. When we gathered to debrief in class, a few students explained how they'd overcome some of their difficulties, but the vast majority was utterly flummoxed by the game. As one of them put it, "I'd say for gamers of our generation, an RPG like Ultima IV is boring and pretty much unplayable." After removing the arrow from my chest, I asked them to explain why.
Thanks, Guhndahb!
More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=15843)

[azarhal]

These people who need directions are the "leaders" of tomorrow. Won't be pretty.

I totally expect VIP to sport ! on top of their heads in a few years. You know, so that the new generation is able to know whom they need to speak too to get "going".

[BillSeurer]

Interesting. I concur with a lot of the students comments and I actually played Ultima IV when it first came out and I liked it. Liked it then. Today I have better things to do than take notes and make maps by hand thank you.

Many things in "modern" games are not better but even so a lot of stuff in the older games was dreck even back then.

[LuckyCarbon]

Now I like complaining about those damn kids on my lawn as much as the next guy but bad archaic games are bad.

Horrible UI and controls are just that, they were bad then, they're bad now. It's a game, some of the early games, especially the early Ultimas forgot that part. It's not supposed to take hours of work to figure out how to control your character.

The reason those early games didn't include automatic journals & auto-mapping wasn't because they wanted to test your patience, mettle and tolerance for spending three hours writing & mapping for every hour spent playing, it's because of byte size limitations of the disks they came on and the computers ability to process and store that much information in memory.

I never liked games that I had no clue what I was supposed to be doing or how to do it back then either. For instance, Wasteland, classic right? How many of us have ever actually finished that? I haven't, I did about 95% and then was completely lost. I forgot to take a note or something and had no clue that I was looking for a secret door under the computer in base cochise or something like that. That's back when it was new too, so it's not like I had become spoiled by these fancy games with their quest logs.

Arguments about the kids being too lazy to read the manuals are even questionable. They're used to game manuals being instructions on how to put the disc in the computer and an advertisement for the publishers next game, most of them it didn't even occur to read the manuals.

Can you make an argument that non-combat games with lots of NPC interaction that was story based aren't as popular with todays kids used to playing Halo? Sure. Then again, what percentage of RPG players had fun with Ultima 4 when it was new? And back when U4 came out, the only people playing computer games at all were us hard core nerd types that liked that kind of game.

I guess what I'm saying as I'm scared of the intellectual laziness of today's youth as much as the next "old timer" and I think all the games they like are rubbish too but at the same time, Ultima 4 is a horrible litmus test.

[Elwro]

With Ultima IV, I think it's best to play the Sega Master System version on an emulator.

[azarhal]

I guess what I'm saying as I'm scared of the intellectual laziness of today's youth as much as the next "old timer" and I think all the games they like are rubbish too but at the same time, Ultima 4 is a horrible litmus test.

I think that Ultima 4 is an "hardcore" example, but then I know a few recent games they gathered the same type of critics: lack of hand-holding and bad UI.

I believe there's a bit of Windows vs OSX kind of thing, some people are just used to a certain type of "UI" that they can't adapt to something else and lots of people lack the initiative and curiosity required to just look around and try to do stuff in the first place.

It would be interesting to see what those students would say about Baldur's Gate or Morrowind.

[jhwisner]

It would be interesting to see what those students would say about Baldur's Gate or Morrowind.

I think the presence of tutorials (Morrowind did walk you through the controls and interacting with the environment and Baldur's Gate had a decent number of optional tutorials in Candlekeep), automaps, and journals (bad ones but better than pad and paper) would produce very different results.

I really don't understand how I enjoyed playing games where I had to manually map out levels and keep a running physical journal. I've tried going back and playing them, but I find I'd much rather replay Torment or Fallout one more time and quickly lose interest. I don't find their reaction upsetting or suprising at all.

Imagine someone asked you to type a draft, proofread it, and then give them a revised draft. Then imagine they gave you a typewriter. Not quite the same, but it's a good analogy for the comparative levels of tedium

[Zloth]

Yeah, mapping was hell. Not just in the computer games, either. Having the DM describe a room then trying to map it out back in Dungeons & Dragons days was also a lot of no fun. It didn't take long to just start letting the DM draw the map himself.

I think this is equal parts of game advancements and audience, though. Anybody smart enough to hook up a TV set can hook up a console and start playing games. Back in U4 days, you had to mess around with your autorun.bat to clear out as much memory as you could, set whether you are using expanded or extended memory, and worry about whether your graphics card/sound card would be compatible with the game. You had to be pretty friggin' smart just to get a game started so naturally many of the games are going to be aiming for the smarter folks.

[Saxon1974]

It scares me to think of the next generation's being in control of the world when I am old:(

I get the interface and lack of mapping and journal being a pain, but I honestly think it makes a game more fun when you put more effort into it.....but I know not everyone agrees.

But the scary thing is the Entitlement generation, they just wanna be spoon fed everything. The comments about we didnt know what to do is what's worrisome. Figure it out for yourself! That's what and RPG is about to me!

[Guhndahb]

I got a chuckle out of this:I had supplied them with the Book of Mystic Wisdom and the History of Britannia, both in PDF form, but not a single student bothered to read them. "I thought that was just stuff they put in the box with the game," said one student. "Yes," I replied, "They put it in there because they expected you to read it." "Wow," he responded.U4 is probably one of the most important games of all time for me. It was one of my earliest RPGs and a lot of my love for gaming can be tracked back to that game. I recently replayed it (w/ xu4 (http://xu4.sourceforge.net/)) and still quite enjoyed it. So I can't really be objective about this game. But I, like Michael, got that "arrow [in] my chest" feeling reading those comments.

I think people's reactions to this are probably right all around. U4 may be an extreme example, but I still think it's a little sad they had THAT much trouble wrapping their head around it. It was second nature to us way back when, and, while I remember struggling with one of the eighths at the time (sacrifice), I never found it to be a difficult game to get into. I agree that U4 could be greatly improved upon (what old game can't be improved with lessons learned), but some of that hardcore nature that we're losing in modern gaming is still a regrettable loss, even if some of it isn't.

[bjon045]

Ultima 4 is probably the hardest to complete apart from Ultima 5 though. Some of the virtues are exercises in boredom even if you know what to do. While they were an interesting concept they were ultimately flawed.

The other negative is the sheer amount of combat. It was toned down a fair bit in U5 but leveling Sheperds is mind numbing. To be honest U4 was actually one of the lowpoints of the series for me.

[JemyM]

You have to read the manual to grasp the game. This used to be the case back then, and I could understand that people not aware of this simple fact would totally botch the game. Had Ultima IV been produced for machines with more memory capacity they would probably have been able to add a better and more intuitive interface and more hints about what to do.

Even you and I will have trouble with old technology since we do not know how it works. Take the modern car that no longer have a handle that need to be rotated to start it anymore.

LOAD "*",8,1
RUN

Yeah, I say this teacher did botch his introduction to the game a bit.

[skavenhorde]

I've been very confused throughout the entire experience. I've honestly sat here for hours trying to figure out what to do and it just isn't making much sense to me right now.

When I start a game I like to do it all on my own, but it's been impossible to do so with Ultima. I've asked friends for help, looked up FAQs/walkthroughs, and even searched for Let's Play Ultima 4 on youtube and am still uncertain as to how to get further in this game.

Yeah, I still have no idea what the main goal is. I suppose it's to basically find out what the purpose of the Ankh is. But I see no way of furthering that goal.

I tried for awhile without any walkthroughs to get the full gamer experience sort thing and within the hour I gave up because of a combination of bad controls and a hard to get into story for me at least. It reminded me of a bad runescape.

i dont quite understand the concept of the game. i believe my main confusion is the controls and how it displays what you have done and how you moved. im not used to rpg's and i dont like them to much. i hope to find out how to move forward,but so far no luck.

How the hell do I get out of here after I die?


I don't believe any of that for a second. They were assigned a game as homework, got high and couldn't figure it out because the game doesn't reward you for being a moron or they flat out didn't want to do it because it was a "game". No one is this stupid if you are ASSIGNED it as homework. You figure it out. Hell, I'd figure out how to play a flight simulator game if it was assigned as homework.

All of these sound like excuses to get out of doing the homework. Change a few words and I gave the exact same excuses when I was going to school.

I've used this one word for word "I've honestly sat here for hours trying to figure out what to do and it just isn't making much sense to me right now." I hated anything to do with math :)

Either they really are morons and can't figure out how to read a manual (in which case god help us all) or they were too stoned to figure it out (probably) or they were making excuses for something they didn't want to do (more than likely, imo).

[zakhal]

These people who need directions are the "leaders" of tomorrow. Won't be pretty.

I totally expect VIP to sport ! on top of their heads in a few years. You know, so that the new generation is able to know whom they need to speak too to get "going".

Reminds me of the movie "Idiocracy":
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/


I never liked games that I had no clue what I was supposed to be doing or how to do it back then either. For instance, Wasteland, classic right? How many of us have ever actually finished that? I haven't, I did about 95% and then was completely lost.

I finished it last year as a start of my last and final playthrough of the fallout-series.

Still I dont expect anyone to have fun playing dusty classics like these. Its a minority sport really.

[Dajjer]

Some classics just don't stand the test of time. Just like some classic TV shows. I played U-4 all the way through. When I finished I took all my maps and notes to the computer store I frequented (yeah, I was one of those guys) and showed it to the store clerk and he looked at all my work and gave me a rather unenthusiastic WOW! I was surprisingly able to intuit his real feelings and I put the work away and eventually stashed it in a drawer. A few years later I was cleaning out that particular desk, looked over the paper for about 3 seconds before I tossed it all in the trash.

I don't consider the future bleak just because some of toady's kids find U-4 unplayable. All that map charting and note taking was of necessity due to the weak computers we had at the time. And BTW, at the time I didn't think mapping and note taking was fun either. But it was the only game in town.

[EvilKoala]

I was born in 1990, so Ultima IV was released 5 years before I was born, and I too must admit that Ive always had a lot of trouble playing the game. I can recognize that its obviously a great game, but the dungeons, lack of helpful graphics and some other stuff is really offputting. Its one of those games where I also have to admit that the lack of good graphics really bothered me, because they really ruined the atmosphere and even harmed the gameplay. I like games that have graphics that allow me to use my own imagination, but in Ultima IV its a little too much. The fist Ultima I was able to "play" was Ultima VI.

That being said, Id still play the living shit out of it if I got it as "homework"....

[holeraw]

<snip>
I agree with that.

I never played U4 myself but I'm sure that if I had gotten my hands on it back then I would enjoy it as much as any fan does… but I tried to play it recently and I also find it 'unplayable' or rather 'too much work'.

I can understand why people find managing to overcome such problems as an unintuitive interface enjoyable or even something to be proud about, but I also think that's beyond the point of the game - ie I'm supposed to be fighting dragons with my sword not fighting the interface with my manual (generic example not referring to Ultima which, as I mentioned, I haven't played - just a note so that I can avoid anyone replying to my post by saying 'there are no dragons in U4 you n00b' or something)

[GothicGothicness]

Haha, well isn't this ironic.... I think the reason that young people of today are getting more and more lazy.... is.... *drumroll* computers and cellphones. Without them we couldn't even play games in the first place.

I mean there was a time when you had to write everything on a paper.. and use an eraser if you wrote something wrong and write it again. You had to actually think how to spell something..... you had to go to the store to buy something... you had to go to the library to find information.... you had to do physical work to get money.... list goes on and on..... anyway without computers we couldn't play games :D

[DArtagnan]

Haha, well isn't this ironic…. I think the reason that young people of today are getting more and more lazy…. is…. *drumroll* computers and cellphones. Without them we couldn't even play games in the first place.

I mean there was a time when you had to write everything on a paper.. and use an eraser if you wrote something wrong and write it again. You had to actually think how to spell something….. you had to go to the store to buy something… you had to go to the library to find information…. you had to do physical work to get money…. list goes on and on….. anyway without computers we couldn't play games :D

Yeah, and people from previous generations would consider people who had access to an eraser, lazy. In the past, you had to rewrite everything if you messed up.

It's not about being lazy, it's about being human.

Human beings, generally, do what they need to do - and no more.

[GothicGothicness]

Human beings, generally, do what they need to do - and no more.

I thought that was the definition of lazy :S

[holeraw]

Meaning young people are more comfortable with technology so they don't see a good reason to struggle to 'tame' it.

(also: I've heard of paper before but what on earth is an errazur?)

[DArtagnan]

I thought that was the definition of lazy :S

Yeah, we're all lazy - making the concept rather meaningless in many ways :)

[zakhal]

Yeah, and people from previous generations would consider people who had access to an eraser, lazy. In the past, you had to rewrite everything if you messed up.

It's not about being lazy, it's about being human.

Human beings, generally, do what they need to do - and no more.

Its all okay as long as there are people who know how to make erasers. :) In the film idiocracy majority of population starts to gradually become dummer and ever dimishing minority is forced to try to keep everything together.

Of course that could never happen irl (communism excluded?). People are usually very inventive when they are forced to.

[GothicGothicness]

Yeah, we're all lazy - making the concept rather meaningless in many ways

Really, I know a lot of people who are anything buy lazy... so that means there is some meaning to the word anyway......

Its all okay as long as there are people who know how to make erasers. In the film idiocracy majority of population starts to gradually become dummer and ever dimishing minority is forced to try to keep everything together.

Sounds cool..... maybe I'll buy it!

[DArtagnan]

Really, I know a lot of people who are anything buy lazy… so that means there is some meaning to the word anyway

No, you know people you wouldn't personally define as lazy, but that's because you overlook the areas in which they're lazy.

That makes the word meaningful to you.

But it IS meaningful, because we're all lazy in DIFFERENT ways. Some people invest themselves entirely into their job, and as such they appear "not lazy" compared with people who invest themselves entirely into their families - for instance. But we all have limited resources, and that means there has to be a sacrifice somewhere.

Naturally, all of this is my opinion.

If you really believe there are people who're genuinely "lazy" or "not lazy", I won't take that away.

[GothicGothicness]

With your reasoning.... all words would become meaningless....

[DArtagnan]

With your reasoning…. all words would become meaningless….

Nah, not really.

They just wouldn't have the same easy-to-digest meanings that you seem to prefer ;)

[pibbur]

There are no dragons in U4 you n00b!!! :-) Sorry, couldn't help it and you sort of asked for it. :-D

But regarding interface. I didn't find it that difficult, although it's of course no icons and mouse clicks. So you had to read part of the manual, the page containing keyborad commeands. After all, in most games I use keyboard shortcuts.

I guess I'm getting old.

[JemyM]

I thought that was the definition of lazy :S

To not be lazy is then to do what you do not need to do?

I would suggest being lazy is to do less than you should.

The idea that hard work is a virtue, regardless of the product, is irrational.

[holeraw]

There are no dragons in U4 you n00b!!! :-) Sorry, couldn't help it and you sort of asked for it. :-D
That's alright… I was almost certain that someone would do it ;)

But regarding interface. I didn't find it that difficult, although it's of course no icons and mouse clicks. So you had to read part of the manual, the page containing keyborad commeands. After all, in most games I use keyboard shortcuts.

I guess I'm getting old.
It's not that I find it 'difficult' as such.
After all my job involves being able to use from scratch any program or scripting language you might throw at me… and I've been doing that on my own successfully and happily for money and/or fun for 20 years.
It's just that when I'm looking for more-or-less pure entertainment, there are many less 'troublesome' alternatives.

——-

Seriously, about those dumb lazy kids… is using an eraser actually more 'hard work' and more complicated than using a word processor?

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Can you make an argument that non-combat games with lots of NPC interaction that was story based aren't as popular with todays kids used to playing Halo?


Back then, LucasArts cancelled their second Sam & Max game with the "reason" that ALL european adventure game players were suddenly gone.

Since then on, they only did action games.


Production seemed to be going well, but in March 2004, Freelance Police was unexpectedly cancelled. "I can still remember the chill that went down my spine when our marketing department informed me that the entire population of European adventure game players had, over the course of less than three months, died," says Stemmle. "You'd think a massacre of such proportions would've been reported more widely." LucasArts officially attributed the decision to "current marketplace realities" and "underlying economic conditions" and, in one fell swoop, caused Sam & Max fans around the world to weep. Openly.

Source : http://www.telltalegames.com/summerofsamandmax/history/history4b

[GothicGothicness]

To not be lazy is then to do what you do not need to do?

I would suggest being lazy is to do less than you should.

The idea that hard work is a virtue, regardless of the product, is irrational.

Here we go again :D less than you should? what would that mean in that case? is what you should do in one day eat and sleep? that is indeed enough to keep alive.. this way the only person to be lazy is someone who is dead.....

Nah, not really.

They just wouldn't have the same easy-to-digest meanings that you seem to prefer

The entire point of word is that we make a fairly common definition of them which most people can identify by.. if you have your very own special definition of each and every word that'll mean none can understand you except yourself thus making your words meaningless to others.

[JemyM]

Here we go again :D less than you should? what would that mean in that case? is what you should do in one day eat and sleep? that is indeed enough to keep alive.. this way the only person to be lazy is someone who is dead…..

Simple. Whatever the one using the word "lazy" believe you should do.

[azarhal]

Haha, well isn't this ironic…. I think the reason that young people of today are getting more and more lazy…. is…. *drumroll* computers and cellphones. Without them we couldn't even play games in the first place....:D

You forgot the Calculator.

When I got to the University (Computer Sciences), I didn't have the right to use the calculator for maths examen (you know Algebra, Calculus, etc). It took a few months to get used to calculate fractions for a 5x5 matrix by hand, but after 1 year, you didn't need the calculator to help you count.

[DArtagnan]

The entire point of word is that we make a fairly common definition of them which most people can identify by.. if you have your very own special definition of each and every word that'll mean none can understand you except yourself thus making your words meaningless to others.

Do you really believe that by stating what you think the point of a word is, gives you the power to decide what it REALLY is?

My own personal perception of why we have words, is because we need to communicate.

Now, to effectively communicate - I think it's important that we have similar definitions of the words in question.

That's why I think about what the most rational definition would be, and not some kind of simplified and completely illogical definition that helps people hold their little worlds together. I have to assume everyone wants to get at the truth, rather than comfortable delusions that place people in tiny little boxes, like the "lazy-box" because some guy decides his place of work isn't the center of his life.

Nah, I'd rather go for something that deals with reality - as I see it. In real life, people are not "lazy" because you think of their focus as non-important. If, for instance, some guy uses all the conveniences at his disposal - so he can work as little as possible, it doesn't implicitly make him lazy.

So, if your definition of being lazy is that they don't work hard - or something silly like that - I'd have to say you have a serious problem comprehending concepts from a rational point of view.

Such as what Jemy was talking about.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Some classics just don't stand the test of time.

Yes. But no-one ever implemented a thing like "Virtues". No-one. The closest thing we have in games nowadays is "reputation", or even rarer: "Karma".

The current games are made so that they allow everything, without any sense, any tiniest bit bit of responsibility. Games are made so that you can do whatever you want without being charged for responsibility for anything. Blowing up innocents is generally allowed without any penalty.

There is no such thing as a "role model" as well. What you "learn" through these games is basically this : You can do what you want, and no-one is charging you for your "mistakkes". Because since you are allowed to do what you want, there are in principle no "mistakes" at all. They just don't exist in games, by definition.

I' thinking o action games, when I write this.

And a thing like being an avatar ... Wich is the last game where you have to be a role model ? Nowhere. Everything that counts is acting according to your own needs and greed, or whatever. What OTHERS want, is absolutely unimportant, at least in games.

I see this against the growing belief-system of "sich selbst der Nächste sein", one translation I found is this : "it's every man for himself". The own needs are what is important; soviety, social things come last. This is just a trip of egoism, at its purest.

And games support that, kind of. With cutting any sense of responsibility and the need for being a role-model.

[GothicGothicness]

Do you really believe that by stating what you think the point of a word is, gives you the power to decide what it REALLY is?

No, but we have words for a reason the official definition of the word lazy is

"Resistant to work or exertion; disposed to idleness." ( that was not made by me but rather by people behined defining the english language )

So this particular word is according to the official definition used as a way to describe a resistance to working.

If you think the word lazy is pointless and this definition is also pointless that is ok, but the majority of the people use the word for what it is defined to mean, and when you say the word they also intercept it as the way they were taught this word means.

For example if you would call someone on the street

"You are an ugly whore" and by this you have in your world defined ugly as beautiful and whore as a person who is extremely intelligent. The majority is still going to be insulted by what you said because they have learned a certain definition of the words ugly and whore.

[DArtagnan]

No, but we have words for a reason the official definition of the word lazy is

"Resistant to work or exertion; disposed to idleness."

So this particular word is according to the official definition used as a way to describe a resistance to working.

Work OR Exertion. For some reason, you think that a job is the only kind of exertion, don't you?

There's also mental exertion, isn't there?

Being idle isn't the same as not working.

If you think the word lazy is pointless and this definition is also pointless that is ok, but the majority of the people use the word for what it is defined to mean, and when you say the word they also intercept it as the way they were taught this word means.

I didn't say it was pointless. I said it was pointless in many ways - like in many ways that people who're ignorant about it use it.

It's meaningful to describe in WHAT WAY people are lazy, but not as an overall label to be placed because someone doesn't "exert himself" to your satisfaction.

It's meaningless, because it's my claim that we're ALL lazy about one thing or another, it's simply about what's important to us.

"You are an ugly whore" and by this you have in your world defined ugly as beautiful and whore as a person who is extremely intelligent. The majority is still going to be insulted by what you said because they have learned a certain definition of the words ugly and whore.

Ehm, that would be a strange definition.

I'm interested in rational definitions and rational approaches to concepts.

Such as lazy not being specifically about your commitment to your job.

Even so, if 9 out of 10 people use words irrationally - I don't really care. It's about getting the message across clearly, not re-enforcing a misunderstanding.

I don't really mind people not understanding - as long as there's a slight chance they might think about the rational approach.

One day, down the line, you'll have changed your approach to the word lazy - because I'm helping you see why it's not healthy right now.

Right? ;)

[GothicGothicness]

I am too lazy to continue this discussion.. but it was fun while it lasted ;)

[DArtagnan]

i am too lazy to continue this discussion.. But it was fun while it lasted ;)

you're the most lazy person evar!!!!!

[skavenhorde]

Just imagine if these "students" tried out Dwarf Fortress. I wonder how many of them would rather quit the class than learn how to play that one? ;) I still can't believe these kids aren't in elementary school.

BTW, I loved Idiocracy. IIRC, it didn't do too well at the box office. I think it scared too many people.

Comin' up next on The Violence Channel: An all-new "Ow, My Balls!"

[BillSeurer]

You forgot the Calculator.

When I got to the University (Computer Sciences), I didn't have the right to use the calculator for maths examen (you know Algebra, Calculus, etc). It took a few months to get used to calculate fractions for a 5x5 matrix by hand, but after 1 year, you didn't need the calculator to help you count.

And before the calculator I am sure that when the first slide rules came out people were lamenting how the kids these days can't do all the math in their heads. And when the hammer was invented the old carpenters were bemoaning how lazy the kids were for not driving nails in with their foreheads or something. And, wait a second...

Hey! You damn kids GET OFF MY LAWN!! :shakefist:

Now, what were we discussing again?

[GhanBuriGhan]

What's with all this bickering about todays youth? Is this the "Three Ogres - Home for Elderly CRPG Players"? Every generation unlearns some stuff the previous generation valued (my grandpa thought I was only half a man, because I didn't fix my own car). And will learn things the last one never did. That's the way of the world, and it has never much impeded -nor improved- mankinds capacity to make a fool of itself.

[skavenhorde]

What's with all this bickering about todays youth? Is this the "Three Ogres - Home for Elderly CRPG Players"? Every generation unlearns some stuff the previous generation valued (my grandpa thought I was only half a man, because I didn't fix my own car). And will learn things the last one never did. That's the way of the world, and it has never much impeded -nor improved- mankinds capacity to make a fool of itself.

It doesn't mean I have to like it when these students can't even be bothered to use their brains for a change. Especially since the market will make games for these people and we'll be stuck in limbo as usual. That's why I love indies. At least we'll get thrown a bone every now and then.

I like a lot of today's rpgs, but I would love to play a good old fashioned 6 or 8 party dungeon crawl like Wizardry. No way in hell that's getting made by any AAA publisher.....That reminds me isn't Grimoire supposed to be released soon ;)

[GothicGothicness]

What's with all this bickering about todays youth? Is this the "Three Ogres - Home for Elderly CRPG Players"? Every generation unlearns some stuff the previous generation valued (my grandpa thought I was only half a man, because I didn't fix my own car). And will learn things the last one never did. That's the way of the world, and it has never much impeded -nor improved- mankinds capacity to make a fool of itself.

But the difference now is that the mechanical world has gotten so far as to start to make physical labor or human thinking pointless that's a huge difference with earlier generations... another thing is that there are a lot of 82 years old which are now in better health than 30 year olds.... so to take the elevator from the garage to the car to the TV is actually not a good trend. Neither is opening calculator in windows to calculate 1 + 1 :D

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Just imagine if these "students" tried out Dwarf Fortress.

Good question, good question. ;)

[Alrik Fassbauer]

But the difference now is that the mechanical world has gotten so far as to start to make physical labor or human thinking pointless that's a huge difference with earlier generations…

I've recently been reading a rather frightening article on the recent financial crisis.

It works so right now that Mathematicans of any kind do actually feed computers with numbers so they (the computers) might be able to predict uman behaviour in terms of buying and selling on markets, which in turn makes hese computers sell or buy stuck on a stock market.

They've already given up thinking.

The article can be found here : http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-70417359.html

It's in German, but I'll translate the relevant parts with the help of the googletranslator :

In the case of London's Fund has so far not much more hooked. The company jumps on trends like the good surfers on the wave, is not something she wanted to invent ingenious ideas constantly new methods of money making. Of the 200 employees, 100 scientists, just imagine, there are mathematicians, statisticians, nuclear physicists, biochemists, whose primary task is to make the markets is predictable and calculable human weaknesses. This is the credo of this force, in her the best graduates from Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, Stanford are assembled; economy, the least studied.

Analyzing human behavior and takes the man as he is or how it imagines: impatient undisciplined, is subjective, greedy, arrogant and always reality-rather, just as it in internal brochures of the company. On knowledge and understanding of these properties ultimately found success or failure, and the best hedge funds manage to translate this as in London, in the binary language of computers.

You have to take leave of the imagination, trained at the old greats like George Soros or Warren Buffett, that investors are master thinkers with wide suspenders, to assess the world situation with a sharp mind and then calmly take their decisions. I bowled that George Soros, the British pound in isolation from the European currency composite, was always a legend. Soros has also swam in a large swarm of decision-makers, whose collective actions were only for the most "market event".

Today's hedge fund managers do not sit together and discuss whether Greek savings plans are appropriate, whether Thailand's government may hold, or whether or not Angela Merkel says. They rather feed their machines with new data, material in a computer whose hard drives are already full to the brim with numbers anyway, and they - the engine, based on mathematical models - from spit out, what to do in this or that situation best .

Everything is fed to which economic statistics have to be, preferably on a back to the beginning of mankind. The computers are of this London hedge fund, even if that sounds like a joke, with bank data from the 17 Century fed with budget figures of the Florentine Republic during the time of the Renaissance, with market statistics from war and crisis. How British government bonds during the French Revolution have developed? What influence did the Crimean War? What phases had the boom before the First World War? As the crash ran after the second Gulf War?

From this incredible wealth of data, an unimaginable mess of numbers, can be, which is the hope, patterns, recurring patterns, probabilities of future developments, structures of the human herd instinct be derived. Compile hope and fear, lust and caution in numbers. The fact that European leaders take decisions that they put together rescue packages for Greece, the machines, so to speak, really care.

The hedge fund handles its business to 95 percent from fully automated, computer analysis of curves and courses, global prices and interest rates, and in certain situations makes it easy to click - and the machine bought or sold positions, no matter what politicians decide straight or editorialists write . The people are in this system only there to keep the computers up to date to maintain their software to adjust the algorithms to eliminate bugs. They invest millions every year in the in-house research, half of the current budget goes, it always, as in the Audi's slogan is, to lead through technology.

[fatBastard()]

Just imagine if these "students" tried out Dwarf Fortress. I wonder how many of them would rather quit the class than learn how to play that one? ;) I still can't believe these kids aren't in elementary school.

BTW, I loved Idiocracy. IIRC, it didn't do too well at the box office. I think it scared too many people.

Comin' up next on The Violence Channel: An all-new "Ow, My Balls!"

Yes well, let's just keep in mind that you have on many occasions proclaimed to be a retro gamer and to vastly prefer retro games over newer ones. Consequently one might say that you're still living in the 80'ies as far as gaming is concerned, making you more than a little biased in this case. Heck, a game like Ultima IV must feel brand new to you.

And just for the record: just because someone doesn't share your love of the so-called "good old days", they are not necessarily stupid.

[TheMadGamer]

I don't really think anything negative about these students.

At the time U4 was released, games in general were pretty rare. Computer games were especially rare. Computer RPGs rarer still. Back in those days, complicated was 'in' - the more archaic the better. While the compendiums provided a lot of background and lore, many game mechanics and items were totally undisclosed, left for you to discover in-game on your own. And i loved that.

I also like driving my car. But i have ZERO desire to find a model A and learn how to drive it and maintain it.

I also like listening to music, but I feel ZERO desire to listen to my old LPs collecting dust in my attic, or searching out an 8-track player to hear recordings from my dad's era.

Technology constantly evolves. The contemporary games these students play today will be the relics of the next generation.

It's just the way life is.

[Scrav]

With this whole scenario - I do see a big problem. Many of the students weren't able to problem solve how to play the game. They didn't pay attention to everything they were provided. Think of the whole thing, game and pdfs as a puzzle. A brief glance at the pdfs would have given major clues on how to play the game. It isn't necessarily about how well you play the game, but it can be how well you apply proper logic skills in real life scenarios - think for yourself. They shouldn't have to be told that they need to read a manual.

I don't mind that they were frustrated with the game because of the technology of the time. I have no desire to play it again. I also have no inkling to try and learn dwarf fortress again - not because I couldn't do it, but because I can't be bothered learning all the mechanics to it. :P

[zakhal]

If anyone plays these old games without premade maps…his life must be very sad. Hell yeah ive played som classics but Im not stupid enough to force myself to handwrite through them. No way. Good luck though to the teacher.

Thats about all I have to say.

[skavenhorde]

Yes well, let's just keep in mind that you have on many occasions proclaimed to be a retro gamer and to vastly prefer retro games over newer ones. Consequently one might say that you're still living in the 80'ies as far as gaming is concerned, making you more than a little biased in this case. Heck, a game like Ultima IV must feel brand new to you.

And just for the record: just because someone doesn't share your love of the so-called "good old days", they are not necessarily stupid.

I know these kids today won't enjoy games I like, BUT here is the thing and I have said this many times, they couldn't do it when it was assigned as homework. They couldn't read the manual, they couldn't use a keyboard, they couldn't take notes, they couldn't problem solve, and I'm sure there are a lot of other "they couldn't" sentences that I'm not thinking of at the moment.

That is what boggles my mind. I could give a rats ass if they enjoy it or not. The fact that they can't play it does make them stupid. It's like if something isn't holding their hand showing them exactly what to do then they just give up or sit there for hours………

So, yes, it does make them stupid if they can't open up a manual and read the directions. BTW, there is nothing wrong with being stupid. I'm not exactly the brightest light bulb out there :) Plus, Idiocracy shows us that even stupid people can live kick ass lives:

There are plenty of 'tards out there living really kick-ass lives. My first wife was 'tarded. She's a pilot now.

[JDR13]

Plus, Idiocracy shows us that even stupid people can live kick ass lives:

There are plenty of 'tards out there living really kick-ass lives. My first wife was 'tarded. She's a pilot now.


I just caught Idiocracy again the other day on Comedy Central. Dax Shepard's character is what makes the movie for me.

"Go away… I'm batin!" :lol:

[skavenhorde]

I don't want to make this thread an Idoicracy quote marathon, but I have to add one more. It just seemed to fit too well into this conversation :D

Rita: You think Einstein walked around thinkin' everyone was a bunch of dumb shits?
Pvt. Joe Bowers: Yeah. Hadn't thought of that.
Rita: Now you know why he built that bomb.

@JDR He was great in that movie.

[Pessimeister]

This article is a little disheartening but nothing totally unexpected. As a teacher, I encounter the various prejudices and issues against classic role-playing games fairly regularly and do my best to reason with them by discussion. It's difficult to get them on side (particularly those who just enjoy fps) or to encourage them to stretch their mentality a little and step outside the graphical box as it were, to utilise their imaginations more and put that extra bit of effort into playing and learning a game.

As a specific example, my brother has a gamer mate who is 18 and lives near me that is quite keen on modern cRPGS (Oblivion, ME 1/2, DAO,) I've tried many times to give him hand me down copies of classics (Fallout, System Shock, Baldur's Gate II) but he simply refuses to play them despite being quite willing to play through the likes of Fallout 3 and anything else with what he considers to be fun and immersive. Whilst I do my best to preach a game's virtues, he seemingly finds either the perspective or graphics too primitive for him to get into. This is fair enough I suppose considering what games he began with, but it
Irritatingly and recently, he downloaded Divinity 2, not caring for the fact that I own Divine Divinity - nor even showing the slightest iota of interest in playing it beforehand!

He's a Gothic fan, which is probably his main saving grace. I'll keep working on him though. ;)

I really do reject the notion of a game being once playable and suddenly not being so anymore, as it seems to denote a kind of rigid mind-set that is all based on expectation, desire and either an inability or unwillingness to adapt or change to suit the requirements of a game. U4 was a wonderful experience, a philosophical revelation to me when I played it in 2000 or so. Whilst I might not be able to immediately get back into it - the habits of mind would quickly return to me if I had the time, desire and energy to do so.

I guess my conclusion would be, if there was one - get them started playing classics at an even earlier age! (Before they encounter the Xbawks and playstations of the world) and perhaps their unshaped expectations (Tabula Rasa) and encounters with games, would make it easier for them to form a relationship the great Ultima's of the world.