The Let's Rant and Rave About Oblivion Thread

[skavenhorde]

I'd like to see a roguelike of Daggerfall done right. I think that's what they were going for in Daggerfall (as far as the random dungeons were concerned), but either I just wasn't into Roguelikes back then or they failed by a country mile. The random dungeons were horrendous (from what I remember, I really didn't play it that long). I do however remember searching a godawful amount of time to find some chest in some dungeon and trying to figure out that automap when exploring the dungeon.

Was anyone else just totally lost a lot in that game? It might just be me, but I couldn't figure out that map to save my life…..literally a couple of times. I remember it being (I think) wire framed with many different levels which overlapped and ended up in some sort of mush of a map. I seriously could be thinking of some other game, but I don't think so.

[Jaz]

That's one of the reasons they added the cheat codes in one of the patches. Put cheatmode 1 in your command line, and you can cycle through map locations with [ and ]. ALT+F11 was another, very useful code; it teleported you back to the space you had been in before you fell through a hole in the map (you know, those holes in the map ... the ones the Dwemer probably fell through). You didn't even need to activate cheatmode - ALT+F11 worked no matter what.

Those dungeons WERE really tough IMO. Sometimes they were built so that you became stuck. Nasty. Anyway, the Daggerfall version I got came with all those patches, cheatmode was mentioned in the corresponding manual, so I finally succumbed to the unethical ways of [ and ].

[Ball_Breaker]

Well, at least in Daggerfall there's no auto scaling for dungeons: am I right?

[Thrasher]

I must be one of the few that REALLY loved the Daggerfall dungeons.

Initially, they were one WTF moment after another.

Though once I figured out how to zoom, raise/lower/swivel, and change transparency, dungeons became navigatable. I now think that the 3d automap was far ahead of its time, and nothing has come close since.

[bussinrounds]

A big problem with these ES games is that they're action rpgs, and the combat isn't any good. They don't have interesting stories/characters/dialog either, sure the exploring is cool, but combat has to be good for a game like this to 'work'.

[Fnord]

maybe it's because I consider them just a box where you can put almost anything you want (accordingly to the game engine, of course ) with the editor… Damn, some MW and OB mods are pretty cool! Which other game allow such a degree of "freedom"?
This is what I consider MW & OB to be as well. The games are, out of the box, not very good (Morrowind being a bit more interesting than Oblivion, due to the setting), but with proper modding, these games can shine (Morrowind, having a more interesting setting, gets to shine far more).

I must be one of the few that REALLY loved the Daggerfall dungeons.
Aye :P Most people I have talked to about Daggerfall have said that they dreaded going down into those dungeons, due to their size, hidden/locked (or hidden & locked) doors & bugs.

[JDR13]

A big problem with these ES games is that they're action rpgs, and the combat isn't any good. They don't have interesting stories/characters/dialog either, sure the exploring is cool, but combat has to be good for a game like this to 'work'.

I agree that the combat isn't the best, but not about them having uninteresting stories and characters. I think TES has some of the most fascinating and in-depth lore ever created for a game series. It's one of the things that keeps me playing, along with the exploration.

[lostforever]

I agree that the combat isn't the best, but not about them having uninteresting stories and characters. I think TES has some of the most fascinating and in-depth lore ever created for a game series. It's one of the things that keeps me playing, along with the exploration.

This I agree! Its pity that they didn't explore much of it in Oblivion. I believe that may have something to do with the original lore dev leaving the company.

[Zaleukos]

Well, at least in Daggerfall there's no auto scaling for dungeons: am I right?

If you mean level scaled enemies Daggerfall had a blatant amount of it. Humans (enemies labelled "barbarian" or whatever) were always scaled to your level both in power and loot. Other enemies were replaced by tougher varieties as you levelled up. If you went back to the starting dungeon at level 20 you'd find that the initial population of imps and rats had been replaced by ancient vampires and liches.

TES games (and Fallout 3) always had plenty of level scaling, and Daggerfall is among the more obvious cases.

[Motoki]

I agree that the combat isn't the best, but not about them having uninteresting stories and characters. I think TES has some of the most fascinating and in-depth lore ever created for a game series. It's one of the things that keeps me playing, along with the exploration.

Lore != current in game story and character dialogue

Lore is the backstory. No one is saying Bethesda has poor lore. You'd be very hard pressed to make that claim. The problem is the writing for the dialog and in game quests tends to be inferior to the lore. Also Oblivion's main quest really didn't take much advantage of the lore at all in comparison to say Morrowind's main quest or even the Shivering Isles. Knights of the Nine even seemed to re-write the lore. Compare the portrayal of the Imperial religion there to Daggerfall.

[xSamhainx]

I think Elder Scrolls combat is good, you just have to go 3rd person when it happens.

[bussinrounds]

I thought the 3rd person was bad. The animations stunk and you felt like you were sliding around everywhere. I think these games lend themselves to first person. They're more simulators. Exploring the world, looking through your own eyes, as if your the one actually out there, only adds to the immersion. (which is the strength of these games)

A big problem with the combat was the lack of any sense of gravity. When your in a fight it seems there is no reactions to getting hit (on yours or they're part) until you land the final blow say and they just keel over, say. The combat seems so bland and lifeless to me.

[JDR13]

The problem is the writing for the dialog and in game quests tends to be inferior to the lore. Also Oblivion's main quest really didn't take much advantage of the lore at all in comparison to say Morrowind's main quest or even the Shivering Isles. Knights of the Nine even seemed to re-write the lore. Compare the portrayal of the Imperial religion there to Daggerfall.

I agree that the dialogue and quest writing is inferior, but that's made more pronounced by the fact that the lore is so good, imo.

I can't really make a comparison to Daggerfall though because it's been too long since I've played it, and I never managed to get very far in the main quest anyways.

[tuukka]

I thought the vanilla Oblivion was boring, because of the scaling system. I stopped playing it after 15 hours or so.

But a year later I found out about the mods, and proceeded to install OOO and a dozen other mods, including the awesome stealth mod that added all the gameplay elements from the "Thief" series into Oblivion.

As a result, the game became much more realistic, difficult, tactical, immersive and rewarding.

The modded version of Oblivion is possibly the best RPG experience I've ever had. I spent well over 100 hours playing it.

[Tilean]

I am playing it for the first time now, although not really in anticipation to Skyrim. I watched a preview of Kingdoms of Amalur a few days ago, a project which apparently has some input from one of the Oblivion lead designers, and I just got a sudden urge for TES style free-roaming.

The mods I am using are:
- Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul (alters levelscaling to be more static, with a ton of other gameplay improvements)
- Qarls Texture Pack (higher resolution textures for environments)
- Open Cities Classic (integrates every city into the world environment, so there is no loading screen when entering a city and the doors simply swing open)
- Darn UI with Darnified Books (improves the interface by making every icon smaller, so the menus are actually browsable, the general structure of the interface is untouched, though, and remains clunky)
- Natural Environments
- Improved Facial Textures (improves the actual textures, not the bone structure of most NPCs, which makes them only a bit more presentable)
- and of course the unofficial Oblivion Patch

Because I wanted to experience the game as natural as possible, all these mods, with the exception of OOO, leave the basic creative vision behind the game intact and there are only a few, minor content additions.

I have to admit I am quite surprised at how much I am enjoying this game. I think the game improved upon the free-roaming aspect of Morrowind by offering less "shackling" content. As far as I can remember quests were often chained in Morrowind and once you reached the end of a particular quest line you were directed to a new location with a new questline which could make the player's progress through the different cities and areas quite linear. Although, admittedly, it could be that I am misremembering or or that I played Morrowind more thoroughly than I am playing Oblivion now, but I do get the feeling that Oblivion tries to encourage the player to change locations more often, which is something I personally like.

I am also quite surprised by how much fun the pre-built class I picked is. When I played Morrowind, I used a custom class specifically designed to let me abuse the levelling system in every way imaginable, which of course creates a pretty powerful character early on but also makes for ridiculous gameplay. Now, I am playing a Witchhunter, who uses a combination of archery and conjuring and destructive magic to deal damage. A Witchhunter also has alchemy, so given the difficulty of OOO using poisoned arrows for harder foes is pretty much required, which is a very satisfying experience.

The quests I have played weren't nearly as bad as one could believe based on the amount of Internet outcry this game produced. And there seem to be some genuine choices in quests, which were almost non-existant in Morrowind. Although I feel that comparing the two does both games an injustice and I think they should be enjoyed independently.

Also, while not really that important, I noticed that a lot of tunes and melodies seem to be only slightly varied from pieces used in Guild Wars, which I think is a pretty lazy move by the composer (of both games) Jeremy Soule.

[Fnord]

I have to admit I am quite surprised at how much I am enjoying this game. I think the game improved upon the free-roaming aspect of Morrowind by offering less "shackling" content. As far as I can remember quests were often chained in Morrowind and once you reached the end of a particular quest line you were directed to a new location with a new questline which could make the player's progress through the different cities and areas quite linear. Although, admittedly, it could be that I am misremembering or or that I played Morrowind more thoroughly than I am playing Oblivion now, but I do get the feeling that Oblivion tries to encourage the player to change locations more often, which is something I personally like.
Most of the questing you will do will be for the guilds, and those chains are linear, or near linear. There are a few times where you are given the option of which guild you'll take quests from, but you still need to do all the quests, and for the most part, you need to do them in a rather strict order, unlike Morrowind where you had more choices in which order to tackle the guild quests.

Also, while not really that important, I noticed that a lot of tunes and melodies seem to be only slightly varied from pieces used in Guild Wars, which I think is a pretty lazy move by the composer (of both games) Jeremy Soule.
I think Jeremy Soule is an overrated composer. While his songs are good, there is not a whole lot of variety in his work. Morrowind did not have a whole lot of internal variety either, and with the exception of the intro song, none really stands out.

[JDR13]

Post back again in a week and let us know if you still feel the same way. :)

The vast majority of people I know enjoyed Oblivion for the first week or so... before the flaws became more apparent.

Also, I'd be wary of the unofficial Oblivion Patch. I've seen a LOT of negative comments about it, and I've heard it creates almost as many bugs as it fixes.

[Tilean]

Most of the questing you will do will be for the guilds, and those chains are linear, or near linear. There are a few times where you are given the option of which guild you'll take quests from, but you still need to do all the quests, and for the most part, you need to do them in a rather strict order, unlike Morrowind where you had more choices in which order to tackle the guild quests.

What I meant was that Morrowind encouraged me more to follow a particular quest line than Oblivion. Again, this could be faulty memory on my part, my particular playstyle for Morrowind or due to the balance changes by OOO, but when I finish a quest in Oblivion the feeling of "What do I do now?" and the choice between simply free-roaming and questing seems to be stronger and more important than it was in Morrowind.

[JDR13]

What I meant was that Morrowind encouraged me more to follow a particular quest line than Oblivion. Again, this could be faulty memory on my part, my particular playstyle for Morrowind or due to the balance changes by OOO, but when I finish a quest in Oblivion the feeling of "What do I do now?" and the choice between simply free-roaming and questing seems to be stronger and more important than it was in Morrowind.

Hmm.. I guess it's personal preference, but I don't look at that "What do I do now?" feeling as being a positive. That's usually a sign that the game isn't really drawing me in. The Morrowind questlines drew me into the game, and made me feel more connected to the guilds, etc.

[Fnord]

What I meant was that Morrowind encouraged me more to follow a particular quest line than Oblivion.
I found the exact opposite to be true, in Oblivion you just get pointed towards the very next quest in line, in Morrowind it felt like the game expected me to not do everything in a particular line in one go (in part due to how level scaling was handled).

[lostforever]

Post back again in a week and let us know if you still feel the same way. :)

The vast majority of people I know enjoyed Oblivion for the first week or so… before the flaws became more apparent.



This!

Funny enough I have also tried Oblivion with the exact mods you mention above other than Open Cities Classic. At the start it was really fun. I think that's mainly due to the difficulty increase provided by OOO and the better looking outdoors thanks to the texture pack. I think I clocked in about good 30 hours before I got bored of it.

One thing that annoyed me the most was, how empty and lifeless the outdoor world was, hardly anything happens. Its big world but even then it just felt dead. You have to go into a dungeon to see any action. There are really 3 types of dungeons, the Alyieds ruins, forts and cave system. They get very boring after you done number of them. In a recent interview, they mentioned they only had about 2 or 3 dedicated dungeon designers. I found this very surprising since all most all quest will take you to a dungeon of some sort.

[tuukka]

I am playing it for the first time now.

Just a hint: Make sure to kill an innocent person at some point - Later this triggers the best quest in the game, and it's a long quest.

If you don't like killing innocents, then simply try to become the champion of the arena in the imperial city. It requires you to do an "assisted suicide" at one point, thus triggering the quest I mentioned.

[tuukka]

There are really 3 types of dungeons, the Alyieds ruins, forts and cave system.

...They had four different visual main themes - You forgot the mines. Granted, considering that there were 200+ dungeons in the game, there was some repetitiveness. The same criticism is true of every open world RPG I've ever played, thought.

There were also around 50 outdoor camps, dozens of isolated buildings and farms in the wilderness, ship wrecks that worked like dungeons, etc.

[Thrasher]

I found the exact opposite to be true, in Oblivion you just get pointed towards the very next quest in line, in Morrowind it felt like the game expected me to not do everything in a particular line in one go (in part due to how level scaling was handled).

I didn't feel pressure from either of the games to follow a particular questline to its end. Which is why I liked them. I ran almost all the guilds in parallel. Actually, Morrowind has some interaction between the thief and fighter guild quests, whereas in Oblivon no guild quests effect one other. This additional choice/consequence complexity in Morrowind, is one of many reasons I found it a better game.

[Biff The Understudy]

Just thought id chime in and recommend a mod i stumbled over the other day called Morroblivion. Basically it combines Morrowind and Oblivion into one gigantic game and lets you jump seamlessly from 1 gameworld to the other.
I remember my biggest issue with Morrowind aside from the +5 leveling nonsense was that every other quest had you waddeling halfway across the map often with a vague or misleading description of your destination. With Oblivions quest marker, fast travel and nearby poi's on the hud this is nolonger an issue and ive found my time in Vvardenfell sofar to be an absolute blast. While theese might have been redundant in Oblivion they are imho a very welcome addition to Morrowind.
I would also recommend the exellent Oblivion Xp + its morroblivion addon.

Link:
http://morroblivion.com/

[Motoki]

One thing that annoyed me the most was, how empty and lifeless the outdoor world was, hardly anything happens. Its big world but even then it just felt dead.

Crowded Roads helps somewhat but only in the most superficial sense (they'll just give generic greetings and maybe sell you stuff) and only on the roads.

I like the quest in Knights of the Nine where you run into another knight on the road also making a pilgrimage. Oblivion needed more of that. A lot more of that.

Just a hint: Make sure to kill an innocent person at some point - Later this triggers the best quest in the game, and it's a long quest.

If you don't like killing innocents, then simply try to become the champion of the arena in the imperial city. It requires you to do an "assisted suicide" at one point, thus triggering the quest I mentioned.

My personal favorite quest line was the one that was triggered by selling an Ayleid statue from the ruins. I think the quests that were triggered in non-standard ways were some of the better ones. Again, this is another area where I thought Oblivion had some good ideas and implementations but didn't go far enough with it and really needed more of that.

[tuukka]

My personal favorite quest line was the one that was triggered by selling an Ayleid statue from the ruins. I think the quests that were triggered in non-standard ways were some of the better ones. Again, this is another area where I thought Oblivion had some good ideas and implementations but didn't go far enough with it and really needed more of that.

WHAT???!!!!

I never found that questline… I did sell one Ayleid statue to Umbacano, but never bothered to look for all of them, despite him asking for it. It seemed like a fetching mission, and he didn't pay much. I had no idea that it was going to lead to two more special quests in Nothing You Can Possess and Secrets of the Ayleids (I just read up on them at UESP WIKI, sounds epic!).

A good example of how in Oblivion you can get big quest lines in unpredictable places.

I will make sure to leave no stone unturned in Skyrim.

[Relayer]

As far as I can remember quests were often chained in Morrowind and once you reached the end of a particular quest line you were directed to a new location with a new questline which could make the player's progress through the different cities and areas quite linear.

I loved this about Morrowind - it gave you a reason within the quest to be at a new city but then you just couldn't help wonder what was AROUND that city and you ended up exploring.

Either way you'd end up exploring I think. But this way it integrated the cities into your quest and you got to learn a bit about them as you went along, you were more invested since it affected your quest.

Also, you ended up exploring because it wasn't so easy to get from city to city with all the mountains and rocky terrain that couldn't be climbed and you had to maneuvre around.

I just loved the way the MQ presented itself in Morrowind - it was a natural progression. You're a stranger in a strange land so you have to get yourself familiar with the land and it's peoples through conversation and quests. You're not told you have to SAVE THE WORLD RIGHT THIS MINUTE!!! Instead you end up doing a few missions that open up the main quest GRADUALLY and during that time are free to explore.