Fallout 3 - Headed to Xbox 360?

[Dhruin]

While I doubt this will surprise anyone, a site called Video Game News is previewing an interview (http://www.gamernews.org/2007/01/19/fallout-3-headed-to-xbox-360-not-unlikely-says-bethesda/) in the UK Official Xbox Magazine February edition with Bethsoft's Todd Howard:
Speaking to Todd Howard (Executive producer of Oblivion, Morrowind and Fallout) with regard to Bethesda’s plans for 2007 and beyond, he told us; "We started work (on Fallout 3) in late 2004 with a few people. We only had about 10 people on it until Oblivion wrapped, but most of our staff is on it now." Is it wishful thinking that Fallout 3 will eventually be released on Microsoft’s next-gen machine? With the game itself utilising the same Gamebryo engine as Oblivion, perhaps not. And promised to be as huge and open-ended as their multi-award winning 2006 effort, demand for Fallout 3 on the Xbox 360 would be huge.
"We have pretty long preproduction phases on our stuff," continues Howard "doing concepts, design, building prototypes, and such. We should be ready soon to show it off, but we’ll see."
For more details and the full interview with Bethesda, check out issue 18 of the Official Xbox 360 Magazine, on sale from the 15th of February.
More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=3563)

[Hedek]

Well, I could "insert sarcastic statement here" to make fun of how lame and pathetic this sounds... but I'm sure others are better at that than me, especially over at RPG Codex. So I'll quote a very old interview of Mr. Have-Been-Taking-Too-Much-Drugs himself, Hervé Caen where he states "All I can say to you is, I think we have a smart group of people running Interplay. Not just myself but people that work in this company are really smart. And if it makes sense from your perspective, a consumer, and think why don't they do that? Then one day or another you'll see it. That's all I can say."

http://archive.gamespy.com/e32002/special/interplay/index2.shtml

It was a good laugh to me, especially after the sci-fi presentation he gave to SEC : http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1057232/000117091806001092/presentation.htm

"FOOL" what a well chosen project name for Interplay. And "oblivion" may well be what's going to happen to the Fallout cRPG franchise once Bethesda is done "working" on it.

[Dyne]

Reading about Bethesda doing Fallout 3 with mentions of Oblivion made me feel scared. Which is annoying because there's no concrete basis to worry about its quality as we've seen nothing of it yet...and yet I have this inescapable bad feeling.

"And promised to be as huge and open-ended as their multi-award winning 2006 effort."

No, make it like the previous Fallouts. Stupid Official Xbox Magazine.

[Corwin]

While still keeping an open mind, I've been very worried about Fallout ever since I learned Bethsoft were making it. They STILL can't make decent NPC's and they are at the heart of Fallout!!

[Cormac]

I suppose this almost guarantees combat wont be turn-based. :'(

[txa1265]

Watching some of the Bethesda video interviews, there are some passionate people involved who made the kind of game they wanted with Oblivion - I really hope that the people involved with Fallout have the same passion, for the old as well as the new game.

[Dr. A]

Watching some of the Bethesda video interviews, there are some passionate people involved who made the kind of game they wanted with Oblivion - I really hope that the people involved with Fallout have the same passion, for the old as well as the new game.

That would be great but the XBox360 is a factor here. The creators of the previous TES series are behind Oblivion but look at how that turned out compared to the rest.

If Oblivion was a PC only title, it would have turned out VERY differently.

P.S I'm not trying to diss console gamers here

[Dhruin]

I'm still (trying to) keep an open mind. I have an opinion on the type of gameplay Bethsoft likes but I want to see their concept.

[Brother None]

Reading about Bethesda doing Fallout 3 with mentions of Oblivion made me feel scared. Which is annoying because there's no concrete basis to worry about its quality as we've seen nothing of it yet...and yet I have this inescapable bad feeling.

You and many others. The annoying thing is that Bethesda is long-since far enough into the development cycle to be able to affirm or deny people's fears, yet they don't. The quality of Morrowind and Oblivion nonwithstanding, it is a fact that both games were disliked by the fans of its predecessor, or by many fans at the least, and Bethesda has its own pr-spin to ignore these fans and make the game a success while not staying true to the franchise, not even their own. It's their modus operandus.

Whether or not it'll apply to Fallout 3 remains to be seen. We'll see come March.

Watching some of the Bethesda video interviews, there are some passionate people involved who made the kind of game they wanted with Oblivion - I really hope that the people involved with Fallout have the same passion, for the old as well as the new game.

I dislike the thought of people who are fanatical about Oblivion working on Fallout. Yes, I respect their passion, their involvement, but it's being involved with the wrong genre.

Just like I don't want to see a person that's passionate about butchering at an operating table, I don't want to see a person that's passionate about Oblivion working on Fallout 3.

If Oblivion was a PC only title, it would have turned out VERY differently.

(...)

I suppose this almost guarantees combat wont be turn-based.

No offense to either of you, but the fact that Fallout 3 would use Oblivion's engine, would be PC-and-console, and can not be turn-based because the engine's not built for that (ok, could be, but "it's not what we do best" as Pete would put it), and will be first-person and isometric because hey it's a 3D-engine and you can pan whichever way you like (though isometric looked terrible on Oblivion)...I digress, anyway, all those facts have been known since a year into pre-development, and only affirmed since then. Read up on the FAQ (http://www.nma-fallout.com/content.php?page=fo3-faq)...though come to think of it, that page needs an update.

[Acleacius]

Right, not shocked here.
I can't believe anyone would think Bethseda is going to ever make a PC only game again, unless this blatant lower quality work comes back to bite them, Star Trek game anyone?
Then of course Bethseda will be our (PC gamers) bestest buddy, "oh no we would never do that of our own freewill "they" made us do it but we didn't want to".

Ahh, nothing like being in an abusive relationship, weeee! :)

[JDR13]

. The quality of Morrowind and Oblivion nonwithstanding, it is a fact that both games were disliked by the fans of its predecessor, or by many fans at the least, .


I disagree Kharn. That statement might apply to Oblivion, but very little to Morrowind. Morrowind was a much better game for it's time than Oblivion was, and I don't remember anywhere near the amount of fan backlash towards MW compared to Oblivion. Of course, a hell of a lot more people played Morrowind than Daggerfall, so that could be a factor.

[bjon045]

I don't think it's going to be like oblivion and I am quietly optimistic at this stage. As long as they retain the map system and allow you to have a party and a decent conversation system I will be satisfied.

[abbaon]

"Oblivion with guns" sounds like the greatest game ever to me. I'll pick that one up day of release, if that's what we get. Of course, I bear a great deal of personal animosity toward Fallout fans, so their (largely theatrical, partly genuine) outrage will only sweeten the experience.

[Corwin]

Why the animosity towards Fallout fans? Most regulars here consider it one of the best games ever!!

[Karmakaze]

Yeah, why the animosity towards Fallout fans? I know I (one of so many) consider it one of the greats, right up there with Planescape: Torment. I hope you gave it a chance. If not, you're really missing something.

[abbaon]

Fallout fans. (http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34177) Oh, this is going to be fun. :)

[Acleacius]

Ahh that explains it. :)

[xSamhainx]

I dont have animosity toward Fallout fans as a group, I am one myself. I do however think that some people's drama queen theatrics are a bit hilarious at best, and totally pathetic at worst. Some people get carried away when a game isnt what they expect it to be, and they go nuts.

I cant find the link now, being half-drunk (or more) doesnt help!
It's probably down, it's been a while. But it was something along the lines of various photoshopped pictures of some guy involved in Fallout BOS in various parody pieces and what not. Personal attacks on the guy. It really comes off as being done by some whiny punk having a little temper tantrum, I dont think it was funny at all actually. It was actually pretty sad that an adult(s) actually did such a thing. I know someone here knows what Im talking about, I cant be the only one who saw this just embarassing little example of a full-blown Fallout Drama Queen Attack.

*hiCcup*

[zakhal]

There are so many superb rpg titles that one fallout doesnt really matter. Allthough I do acknowledge that fallout as we know it is propably dead. That however doesnt mean that bethsofts version of the game cant be an excellent title. For one thing they do know how to make openended rpgs.

[Acleacius]

Well they may know but seems they just forgot in their most recent title.
Iirc, the MQ and 3 of Guild Quests have no choices/open, with the 4th Guild Quest maybe having one choice but doesn't really affect the outcome.

Will they turn Fallout, which is known for having many choices and options to solve issues, be made into very linear quests to engage folks whom don't like complicated choices, as they did recently?

Maybe they could make a Post Apocolptic Action Adventure game called Fallout 3, it's not like it has to be a RPG. ;)

[Sorcha Ravenlock]

No suprise there then.

In all honesty, does anyone expect anything else then Oblivion with guns?
Like Oblivion or not, truth is that it sold incredibly well, got raving reviews and GOTY awards. Why would Bethesda move away from a winning formula, just to please a couple of die-hard old school RPG-fans?
A turn-based, conversation-driven isometric view RPG just won't sell as well as an action-adventure FPS hack'n'slash, and Bethesda has a whole new fanbase who will buy the latter just because it's from the makers of Oblivion.
And yes, ofcourse they will call it an RPG, jusr like they did with Oblivion.

I wasn't fond of the old fallout games at ll, I hated the slow turn based system, and so I never got very far in it, but I have to say Oblivion didn't do it for me either. So I won't be picking this one up, unless I hear some good reviews from people I trust (not the usual fawning big-website reviews). I have no fate what so ever in Bethesda being true to the original though, al they will do is pay it lip-service by using the name and using a post-apocalyptic setting.

[fatBastard()]

So did anyone else get Psychonauts mainly for the fact that Tim Schafer was the head honcho on the game? Do you guys automatically think of FPS games if I say: Id Software? Does the director, author, or leading role actor ever influence you when choosing a movie or book?

If you can say yes to any of the above then it should be pretty obvious that a Fallout game made by a company like Bethesda is NOT going to be anything even remotely resembling the Fallout games made by Black Isle Studios. Could it be a good game? Sure. Tolkien was a great writer but if you were expecting Shakespeare, you're in for a surprise.

All the things that made Fallout and the sequel great games in my point of view is just about all the things that Bethesda do NOT master (dialogue, character personality, strategic gameplay, etc). I'm sure the Bethesda attempt will be damn pretty, the world will be huge and the free roaming aspect will be just fine ... but it would be better off NOT trying to associate itself with the Fallout franchise because in that it will fail, miserably.

[Surlent]

Oblivion with guns, pretty much yeah. It doesn't sound that surprising at all they would make FO3 a multiport title after Oblivion's past success on several platforms. Why wouldn't they, if I were in Bethesda's nice financial position I would do the same.

In my humble opinion people looking for turn based isometric-view computer rpgs are better off looking at indie games where turn based games are still being made. The commercial market has been lacking in this aspect for years. As for other post-apocalyptic themed games, well NMA covers some of those pretty well.

[KasperFauerby]

I dont have animosity toward Fallout fans as a group, I am one myself. I do however think that some people's drama queen theatrics are a bit hilarious at best, and totally pathetic at worst. Some people get carried away when a game isnt what they expect it to be, and they go nuts.


Very well said! I agree 100% with this! Whenever a game series has been around for some time there will always be some die-hard fans who loves the originals so much (they probably have played them 100 times) that *whatever* the developers do in a sequel they'll whine about it - because they don't *want* a new game, they want a carbon copy of the old ones. Better yet, they want a time machine so they can travel back in time and experience the old games all over again, fresh and new. What they don't realize it that time passes and developers dont want to do the same thing over and over again - sometimes they want to try out new designs and ideas to keep *their* series fresh.

Take "Thief 3" for example. Personally I liked many things about that game - for example the introduction of a city that you could roam when you were between missions, instead of a linear game that takes you through the missions and where you loose all your stuff between missions. I also likes the old Thief games, but I appreciated the new and fresh things. As you all probably remember (and I'm sure many people here would even feel the same) some old fans of the series went crazy about the game. Even the smallest design changes they hated and ridiculed - for example the fact that Garrett now had a short sword instead of a dagger (or was it the other way around, can't even remember). I mean, talk about going in small shoes here! What the hell does it matter for the game overall which meelee weapon they game him?

On the main topic of this thread - I don't want FO3 to be a new Oblivion either... but I have faith in Bethestha that they will develop a quality product. Whatever can be said about Oblivion regarding game play noone can deny that it shipped in a pretty solid state. In the end Bethesta will do the only thing that makes sense for them - they'll develop a game that'll make a profit. Hopefully it'll still be a FO game, but I guess we'll have to wait and see :)

[Rizzla]

"On the main topic of this thread - I don't want FO3 to be a new Oblivion either... but I have faith in Bethestha that they will develop a quality product. Whatever can be said about Oblivion regarding game play noone can deny that it shipped in a pretty solid state."

I never bothered with Oblivion, but Morrowind was a joke of a game on its initial release. Non-existent difficulty, bland quests and combat, endless boring dialogue to wade though, buggy engine. It was the years of hard work and dedication by the mod community that made Morrowind the game that it is today. Bethesda had very little to do with it.

I have very little faith in Bethesda, myself to do a new Fallout game and justice.

[screeg]

With all the promising indie, isometric RPG's coming up this year, maybe someone will be inspired to do a post-apoc Fallout type game soon after.

In fact, such a thing was announced recently by a veteran developer from one of the old school houses who was starting his own indie company, but the details escape me...

[magerette]

I agree, some of the Fallout fans are like religious fanatics about their aging love--but it does say something about a game that it can make that kind of impact on people's minds and emotions. I've doubted from the beginning that Bethesda could ever spin anything their way that would have any effect. I think we will see with this title how committed to excellence Beth is or isn't.

Some of you who are more knowledgable than I, tell me why ( or if) no one is using the type of 3rd person view engine used in Titan Quest for rpgs? It seems like it would be perfect for it. It combines the old third person perspective with good ragdoll physics and excellent graphics--seems like it would be an alternative to all this first-person ever-repeating tileset stuff.

[Brother None]

Of course, a hell of a lot more people played Morrowind than Daggerfall, so that could be a factor.

That's no a factor, that's the factor. The fans of the original TES series loathed Morrowind quite a bit more than Morrowind fans loathed Oblivion, and this includes developers in Bethesda who've been around since the start, not to mention those that left around the time Todd went from coffeeboy to big lead.

"Oblivion with guns" sounds like the greatest game ever to me.

Then petition Bethesda for Oblivion with guns, rather than Fallout 3.

Of course, I bear a great deal of personal animosity toward Fallout fans,

(that *whatever* the developers do in a sequel they'll whine about it - because they don't *want* a new game)

Yeah, you and half the planet. Funny thing is most of the "facts" mumbled about Fallout fans are blatant lies, people seem to easily forget that we were willing to give Tactics a chance, that we accepted multiplayer co-op and RT/TB hybrid in Van Buren, that we accepted Van Buren because the devs showed a willingness to communicate with us and an understanding of the setting, despite the fact that none of them were original Fallout devs. So where's the "don't want a new game"? Where's the "whatever people do is wrong"?

There are so many superb rpg titles

Urp? Name one. I haven't seen a good cRPG released since...hell, I don't even remember.

There are some superb hack and slash and dungeon crawlers out there, though, like Gothic and TES.

For one thing they do know how to make openended rpgs.

Open ended has no meaning without the concept of choice and consequence.

Why would Bethesda move away from a winning formula, just to please a couple of die-hard old school RPG-fans?

Why would they buy a license that has a ravenous, angry fanbase and has shown no promise of success on the console?

made by Black Isle Studios

Black Isle Studios is just a name, though. Except for Chris "Fleet of Cars" Avallone, who left quickly, there were no classic BIS devs working on Van Buren. Yet Van Buren, from the design docs, screenshots and info, looked to be a good, solid cRPG and true to the Fallout setting. And it was being made by a bunch of guys who have as much of a clue as you or I. 's not that hard, in other words.

Why wouldn't they

Because Fallout Teh Console Gaim bombed? Not the right target audience. Herve didn't understand, I'm kind of surprised Pete doesn't either.

sometimes they want to try out new designs and ideas to keep *their* series fresh.

What's fresh about making a TES-version of Fallout? Innovative of Bethesda would be to go away from what they normally do, not to stick to it.

Nice pr-speak, tho'

Whatever can be said about Oblivion regarding game play noone can deny that it shipped in a pretty solid state.

Sure. But the comparison to Tactics does come to mind. Innovate or not, if they wander away from the things that make Fallout Fallout, it'll just be an empty shell of a franchise. So, wait, Fallout 3 will be another spin-off-type game? 'k. Just be honest about it.

[KasperFauerby]

"What's fresh about making a TES-version of Fallout? Innovative of Bethesda would be to go away from what they normally do, not to stick to it."

Well, as far as I understand it - noone *knows* what Beth intends to do with the license yet! Until they make an official statement and/or shows us some material it is only speculations that:

1) It'll surely suck because Beth is developing it!
2) It'll surely employ the exact same game mechanics as their TES series!

Lets all just calm down and wait and see what they have in mind for us with the game :) Whether they'll use a first person or third person perspective means little for me - that's not what makes or breaks a FO game, just the way it is presented to us. I'm more interested in what they intend to do with quests, dialog, items and atmosphere!

[abbaon]

Then petition Bethesda for Oblivion with guns, rather than Fallout 3.
And why should I do that? I get what I want either way.

[Brother None]

Well, as far as I understand it - noone *knows* what Beth intends to do with the license yet! Until they make an official statement and/or shows us some material it is only speculations that

True, like I said, wait until March. However, I wasn't arguing against what Bethesda will do, I was arguing against your logic.

It'll surely employ the exact same game mechanics as their TES series!

Pete Hines: Again, it's early to say, but it wouldn't be a leap of faith to say that we plan to use technologies in development otherwise. You could make some fairly safe leaps of faith that it would be similar in style. We're not going to go away from what it is that we do best. We're not going to suddenly do a top-down isometric Baldur's Gate-style game, because that's not what we do well. (http://pc.ign.com/articles/529/529773p1.html)

Whether they'll use a first person or third person perspective means little for me - that's not what makes or breaks a FO game, just the way it is presented to us. I'm more interested in what they intend to do with quests, dialog, items and atmosphere!

Agreed, the third person perspective is integral of turn-based combat, but as it won't have turn-based combat, the third personv perspective becomes secondary.

That said, they will have isometric view, because their engine allows for a moveable camera, meaning it takes about 2 seconds to make a menu option to pick between first person or isometric. Oblivion had isometric view, it just looked like shit.

And why should I do that? I get what I want either way.

Heh, yeah, I guess you do

[Moriendor]

"Oblivion with guns" sounds like the greatest game ever to me. I'll pick that one up day of release, if that's what we get. Of course, I bear a great deal of personal animosity toward Fallout fans, so their (largely theatrical, partly genuine) outrage will only sweeten the experience.

Buahahahahahaha... good one, dude :biggrin:

[Cormac]

For those who missed it and are interested, here's a two-year old interview (http://www.duckandcover.cx/content.php?id=66)with T. Howard on F3.

[zakhal]

That's no a factor, that's the factor. The fans of the original TES series loathed Morrowind quite a bit more than Morrowind fans loathed Oblivion, and this includes developers in Bethesda who've been around since the start, not to mention those that left around the time Todd went from coffeeboy to big lead.

Perhaps they were not real fans. I have played through both Arena and Daggerfall and consider Morrowind and Oblivion as superb successors. Allthough
the mods help quite especially the morrowind ones that are unbelievable but I do consider them as part of the game. Mods are a significant part of morrowind and oblivion. I would never play them without mods.


Urp? Name one. I haven't seen a good cRPG released since...hell, I don't even remember.

You mean you have played through every RPG title ever released on every platform? I doubt so. Unless you have a problem of playing older RPG. Currently on my list to play through is:

Final Fantasy 4
Final Fantasy 5
Final Fantasy 6
Final Fantasy 7
Final Fantasy 8
Final Fantasy 9
Final Fantasy 10
Final Fantasy 10-2
Final Fantasy 12
Chrono Cross
Siege of avalon
Morrowind GOTY +20 mods
Oblivion & expansions & mods
Gothic 2 deluxe
Gothic 3
Spellforce & expansions
Spellforce 2
Baldurs 2 & expansions
Icewind dale saga
Neverwinter nights saga
Fallout 1 (replaying)
Fallout 2 (never finished) + mods
Fallout Tactics
Warcraft 3 & expansion
Beyond divinity
Fable lost chapters
Planescape: Torment
Arx Fatalis
Dark Messiah of MM
Gods Loi SE
Homm5

Soon to be added (possibly):
Jade Empire SE
Two Worlds
Stalker: Shadow of Chernobyl

Som of them are not just RPGs but they all do have rp-elements like character development and dialogue so I consider them as RPGs. Its actually refreshing to play different kinds of RPGs instead of the same vanilla all the time. Thats what got me to pick up final fantasy. Its so different from pc rpgs and a slim ps2 costs only 100€ nowadays.

So you see I have so many rpgs to play that I dont have time to complain about the lack of them. But each to their own.

[Brother None]

Perhaps they were not real fans. I have played through both Arena and Daggerfall and consider Morrowind and Oblivion as superb successors.

Uhm, perhaps you're not a real fan. What kind of argument is that?

The reason most Arena/Daggerfall fans didn't like Morriwind and most Morrowind fans didn't like Oblivion is that each successor takes away essential components of the game and puts in "innovations" like levelling NPCs. I'm not saying that's bad by definition, it can still make a good game, but it's not being loyal to either the fanbase or the franchise. Hence the many original devs leaving Bethesda.

Allthough
the mods help quite especially the morrowind ones that are unbelievable but I do consider them as part of the game. Mods are a significant part of morrowind and oblivion. I would never play them without mods.

For reference's sake, that's a bad thing.

Unless you have a problem of playing older RPG.

Sorry, for some reason I was thinking about cRPG titles currently being released, which wasn't what the post I was quoting was referring to. My bad.

Som of them are not just RPGs but they all do have rp-elements like character development and dialogue so I consider them as RPGs.

I don't. But let's please not get into that.

Its actually refreshing to play different kinds of RPGs instead of the same vanilla all the time.

Indeed, agreed, which is why it would be fantastic to have another true-form P&P-based cRPG rather than the constant rehashing of action-RPGs and dungeon crawlers like Oblivion and Gothic.

[zakhal]

Uhm, perhaps you're not a real fan. What kind of argument is that?

I have played through/own all the games in the series and like them and you say Im not a real fan?


The reason most Arena/Daggerfall fans didn't like Morriwind and most Morrowind fans didn't like Oblivion is that each successor takes away essential components of the game and puts in "innovations" like levelling NPCs.


What evidence do you have that "most" Arena/Daggerfall fans didnt like morrowind or oblivion? None. I say the real fans played the game instead of trying to get attension in the forums.


For reference's sake, that's a bad thing.


Having high quality free mods that make the game better is a bad thing?


Indeed, agreed, which is why it would be fantastic to have another true-form P&P-based cRPG rather than the constant rehashing of action-RPGs and dungeon crawlers like Oblivion and Gothic.

Constant rehashing? How many oblivion/gothic clones are there?

[JDR13]

Kharn,

You need to calm down and respect other peoples opinions. Sorry you didn't like Morrowind, but not everyone feels the same way you do.

"The fans of the original TES series loathed Morrowind quite a bit more than Morrowind fans loathed Oblivion"

You're obviously speaking for yourself when you say that. Yes, I'm sure there are people who would agree with you, but many people also have a different opinion.

[Brother None]

Kharn,

You need to calm down and respect other peoples opinions. Sorry you didn't like Morrowind, but not everyone feels the same way you do.

(...)

You're obviously speaking for yourself when you say that. Yes, I'm sure there are people who would agree with you, but many people also have a different opinion.

Sorry, I'm not a TES fan at all. So I'm not speaking for myself when I say "the fans of the original TES series".

Also, where did I say I didn't like Morrowind? Read a bit more carefully, I clearly said "I'm not saying that's bad by definition, it can still make a good game, but it's not being loyal to either the fanbase or the franchise. Hence the many original devs leaving Bethesda."

Also, are you telling me to be quiet because I don't respect people's opinions despite the fact that there are people whose opinion is that Morrowind was not a true sequel of Daggerfall/Arena? Dude, please respect their opinion.

I have played through/own all the games in the series and like them and you say Im not a real fan?

You're saying they're not fans, without a doubt they also played all the games. My points was that your point is moot.

I say the real fans played the game instead of trying to get attension in the forums.

So your definition of a fan is a person that does not criticise?

Having high quality free mods that make the game better is a bad thing?

Yes, because you can't fix something that's not broken.

Constant rehashing? How many oblivion/gothic clones are there?

I said "like". The main point was that pretty much all 2006 releases were action RPGs, not a single true form P&P RPG to be seen: Dungeon Siege 2, Mage Knight and Titan Quest are all Diablo-esque hack 'n slashes, Oblivion and Gothic 3 were action-RPGs at best, NWN2 kind of makes a stab at being true form but is a bit schizophrenic.

[Jaz]

Another fan who played all Bethesda titles (with the exception of the handheld games), and liked them :uneasy:. If we talk about the CRPGs only, sure - Oblivion was not like Morrowind was not like Daggerfall was not like Arena, and each successor had several aspects I would have done differently had I been the one to decide these things... yet I liked each game for what it was.
On the other hand, I am a big fan of Gothic 1 and 2, yet I'm not going to get G3 unless it's going to the bargain bin including patches and addons. Why? Not because I don't like the general approach Piranha Bytes have taken, changing certain elements of gameplay when compared to the predecessors - I wouldn't know as I haven't played the game yet. No, I don't want to buy it until it's stable because I can't be bothered with trying to get a bugfest to run on my machine. Even if it's a totally different game, I'm pretty sure I'll have fun playing it just because it's set in a game world I have come to love (I also liked Thief: DS 'despite' being a fan of the predecessors).
With Doom 3 it was a different thing for me, though: had they declared it a sequel to Doom, I would have been fine with it, but Id said it was a *remake*. And while they retained some of the basics, they changed the lore and background enough to make me grumpy...

So unless they change the background of Fallout, the history and the world, why not give F3 a try?

[Karmakaze]

I have no doubt that Bethesda will produce a great game with 'Fallout 3' especially if it has a great tool set and can be modded. My only problem (admittedly shallow) is that they are using the 'Fallout 3' name. They could have easily called it 'Fallout: Oblivion With Guns' or whatever. I also accepted long ago, like many of us did, that the 'Fallout' that we know and love is dead.

[xSamhainx]

To use the word "most" in regards to fans and their attitudes in this discussion, with some degree of validity, I would use it like this - "Most people have not been actually surveyed and asked what they think about 'title', and I'm not an omniscient being (at least last time I checked). Therefore, I will use the anecdotal evidence of outspoken people on message boards, reviews, and my own personal feelings to sum up what I think Most People Think about 'title'."

Well in that case, what hard data do we truly have? Is there a national RPG Census Board that sends out a bunch of survey elves to people who buy RPGs?

Unfortunately not, as this would answer for once and for all one way or another. What real data we do have are sales figures, and looking at those, I would say that Morrowind was generally not a "loathed" game, old school fan or not. Nor was Oblivion, for that matter. These games would not have sold and resold as much as they did, on multiple platforms, if they were. Perhaps by a lot of people, sure, but if you had to stack up love vs hate, the real data speaks FTW.

[fatBastard()]

And why should I do that? I get what I want either way.

Wow ... that's ... how's the weather there at the perceived center of the universe?

[zakhal]

You're saying they're not fans, without a doubt they also played all the games. My points was that your point is moot.

You said that "the fans of original TES series loathed morrowind" which is incorrect. Surely som might not like it but making it a generalization is just not right. Im sure there are many original fans who liked morrowind.


So your definition of a fan is a person that does not criticise?


If you can put "loathing" into the same sentence as criticising. Fans can critize but surely its not a requirement if they are happy with what they see.


I said "like". The main point was that pretty much all 2006 releases were action RPGs, not a single true form P&P RPG to be seen: Dungeon Siege 2, Mage Knight and Titan Quest are all Diablo-esque hack 'n slashes, Oblivion and Gothic 3 were action-RPGs at best, NWN2 kind of makes a stab at being true form but is a bit schizophrenic.

I agree with DS, mage knight and titan quest. I decided to skip them all. I have never liked diablo or its clones.

[Brother None]

You said that "the fans of original TES series loathed morrowind" which is incorrect. Surely som might not like it but making it a generalization is just not right. Im sure there are many original fans who liked morrowind.

Sure, fair enough. Just read it as a hyperbole.

If you can put "loathing" into the same sentence as criticising. Fans can critize but surely its not a requirement if they are happy with what they see.

No, but the two things aren't exclusive, which you were implying.

I agree with DS, mage knight and titan quest. I decided to skip them all. I have never liked diablo or its clones.

Oh, I like Diablo. Played it quite a bit. That wasn't my point, though, my point was that all we've seen is bucketloads of action-RPGs, of good or bad quality, and that those looking for innovation shouldn't currently be looking for yet more action-RPGs, since that is the status quo.

To think Fallout fans are actually the ones clammering for change and the Oblivion-fans for conservatism. Funny, n'est pas?

[Elwro]

I wonder if they hire someone who can write passable dialogue and create at least a semi-memorable NPC. This would be a great step forward from Oblivion.

[Corwin]

With all the promising indie, isometric RPG's coming up this year, maybe someone will be inspired to do a post-apoc Fallout type game soon after.

In fact, such a thing was announced recently by a veteran developer from one of the old school houses who was starting his own indie company, but the details escape me...

Actually, Cleve Blakemore has one planned after he finishes and releases Grimoire!! :) Wait for it!!!

[xSamhainx]

*coughs*

Any day now!

[txa1265]

Actually, Cleve Blakemore has one planned after he finishes and releases Grimoire!! :) Wait for it!!!

I'm getting a bit blue holding my breath ... ack!

[abbaon]

Didn't he whittle the spec for that down to a simple zombie survival game that his four year old could enjoy? I remember seeing a forum post along those lines, before he banned me for making fun of Corwin.

[Corwin]

As well he should!!!!

[zioburosky13]

Final Fantasy 4
Final Fantasy 5
Final Fantasy 6
Final Fantasy 7
Final Fantasy 8
Final Fantasy 9
Final Fantasy 10
Final Fantasy 10-2
Final Fantasy 12
Chrono Cross
Siege of avalon
Morrowind GOTY +20 mods
Oblivion & expansions & mods
Gothic 2 deluxe
Gothic 3
Spellforce & expansions
Spellforce 2
Baldurs 2 & expansions
Icewind dale saga
Neverwinter nights saga
Fallout 1 (replaying)
Fallout 2 (never finished) + mods
Fallout Tactics
Warcraft 3 & expansion
Beyond divinity
Fable lost chapters
Planescape: Torment
Arx Fatalis
Dark Messiah of MM
Gods Loi SE
Homm5

Soon to be added (possibly):
Jade Empire SE
Two Worlds
Stalker: Shadow of Chernobyl


http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34337

japRPG are not RPGs by any diffinition, they are closer to a playable movie (make that a playable manga style movie). For some reason people have this preconcieved notion that "if you can collect new armour and go up levels then it must be a rpg" Well you can collect armour and new weapons in Doom but I would call that a RPG. The JapRPGs have less freedom than ultima 1. real rpgs should be an electronic version of a paper game where the player can do anything, you imagine trying to play a paper based rpg with a group of friends where the dungeon master/game master would only let you follow his exact script .

[abbaon]

We actually settled the question of what is or isn't an RPG in a different thread. Use the search option to find it.

[Acleacius]

zioburosky13
"imagine trying to play a paper based rpg with a group of friends where the dungeon master/game master would only let you follow his exact script .

I think Sorcha Ravenlock speak's for many of us, in this case.
"bite me" ;)

[JDR13]

[QUOTE=Kharn;16492]
Sorry, I'm not a TES fan at all. So I'm not speaking for myself when I say "the fans of the original TES series".
QUOTE]


Really? I'm surprised to hear that. Since you seem to be a walking dictionary of TES knowledge.:)

[zakhal]

Originally Posted by Wild_qwerty
japRPG are not RPGs by any diffinition, they are closer to a playable movie (make that a playable manga style movie). For some reason people have this preconcieved notion that "if you can collect new armour and go up levels then it must be a rpg" Well you can collect armour and new weapons in Doom but I would call that a RPG. The JapRPGs have less freedom than ultima 1. real rpgs should be an electronic version of a paper game where the player can do anything, you imagine trying to play a paper based rpg with a group of friends where the dungeon master/game master would only let you follow his exact script .

Sounds like people who condemn "jap" RPGs have never actually played them. ;)

I recently finished three final fantasies and chrono trigger and they all had large world that you could travel freely ultima style with ships or foot and do whatever quests you wanted. There were even multiple endings to the story and dialogue choices.

[bjon045]

Last I heard Cleve was holed up in his personal bomb shelter and may have starved to death...

Sounds like people who condemn "jap" RPGs have never actually played them. ;)
I recently finished three final fantasies and chrono trigger and they all had large world that you could travel freely ultima style with ships or foot and do whatever quests you wanted. There were even multiple endings to the story and dialogue choices.

Ultima and Wizardry are very popular in the Japanese market so it is logical that elements of western games make it into Japanese games and vice versa.

Chrono Trigger was probably the most non-linear of all the squaresoft console rpgs and it is I guess in some sense comparable to the Ultimas with some caveats. It still has NPC's that you click the "A" button to talk to and get a verbatim response (over and over again) with the occasional option(YES/NO) thrown in. It still has the annoying inescapable random battles.

[zakhal]

Chrono Trigger was probably the most non-linear of all the squaresoft console rpgs and it is I guess in some sense comparable to the Ultimas with some caveats. It still has NPC's that you click the "A" button to talk to and get a verbatim response (over and over again) with the occasional option(YES/NO) thrown in. It still has the annoying inescapable random battles.

The random battles were not as bad as in first final fantasies. Still in the sequel it was fixed for in chrono cross there is no random battles and you can even escape (boss battles even) if you feel it to be too tough.

[Brother None]

Really? I'm surprised to hear that. Since you seem to be a walking dictionary of TES knowledge.:)

I'm know more about TES history than I do about the games. TES was always too hack 'n slash for me, and considering it was designed as an arena-fighter/dungeon crawler kind of game, it's not surprising that it's always been cRPG-lite. The focus has shifted since the start and some would argue that the quality has decreased. I'm not really making a statement on that either way, but I will say that I consider TES one of the series in which the developers crossed from the realm of innovation into the area of being disloyal to the franchise.

abbaon; heh, claiming to settle the question of what is a cRPG is like claiming you know the ultimate question to life, the universe and everything.

[Corwin]

Isn't that 42??!! :)

[Sir Markus]

Great another Xbox/Pc game with a hackneyed control system to cater to the needs of the console gamer.

[KazikluBey]

Isn't that 42??!! :)
That's the answer, not the question.

Like many others: An Oblivion with guns, is what I'm expecting, thanks to Bethesda's own statements.

[txa1265]

An Oblivion with guns, is what I'm expecting, thanks to Bethesda's own statements.

Post-Apoc Oblivion with guns, of course ;)

Question: if that is the case, and the story and characters are really excellent - and you get to make choices WITH *consequences* ... how would you feel?

[Punter X]

then would it still be "Oblivion" with guns? :biggrin:

sorry couldn't resist ;)

[txa1265]

then would it still be "Oblivion" with guns? :biggrin:

sorry couldn't resist ;)

Hehe ... nice :) But what about the main point?

[doctor_kaz]

Fallout 3 headed to the XBox 360? Was there ever any doubt at all?

[Punter X]

"Question: if that is the case, and the story and characters are really excellent - and you get to make choices WITH *consequences* ... how would you feel?"

well in regards to how i would feel it's hard to say but if those feature were all that connected FO3 with the previous installments then i may well enjoy the game as a PA crpg (and even part of the fallout universe if lore and such are kept intact) although whether i would "feel" it to be Fallout 3 would be up for debate

[doctor_kaz]

I'm not overly optomistic about this game, but I am holding out a ray of hope that it will at least be enjoyable on some level. Oblivion was one of the most ambitious games that I have ever seen, so the one thing that you can't say about Bethesda is that they don't put effort into things. I hope that Bethesda approaches the game with the philosophy that focuses on depth more than breadth. That's sort of what the series has always been about.

[magerette]

Post-Apoc Oblivion with guns, of course ;)

Question: if that is the case, and the story and characters are really excellent - and you get to make choices WITH *consequences* ... how would you feel?

Taking into consideration that I am not a total Fallout fan, but did play and enjoy Fallout 2:

IF they retained or even based their char leveling on the skill system of perks-which was unique in my mind to FO, IF they provided excellent NPC interaction and dialogue based play, IF they at least implemented a pause and play combat system(I know TB is out) and finally, IF they were able to create a dark atmosphere of disintegration and apocolyptic mayhem, then I would feel that they at least tried to make a Fallout successor. If they also added the black humor and cynicism, I would then say they did well.

That's a lot of big IF's.;)

[txa1265]

That's a lot of big IF's.;)

Sure as heck is ;)

[zakhal]

All the things that made Fallout and the sequel great games in my point of view is just about all the things that Bethesda do NOT master (dialogue, character personality, strategic gameplay, etc).

FYI before morrowind bethesda made a game called Redguard that was praised for dialogue and character personality.

Gamespot snippets:
"The excellent story"
"Each NPC has a distinct personality and conversational style, and that helps convey a sense of immersion in the gameworld. The dialogue is well written, with a few conversational gems here and there."

No need to get hysterical yet, ladies. ;)

[Corwin]

Whose hysterical? We're merely concerned!! The track record isn't good in our areas of concern, that's all!!

[Lethal Weapon]

Fallout was one of the few games that offered true roleplaying. That such a licence would fall into the hands of Beth is most unfortunate. People forget that Arena+Daggerfall were made by different programmers than Morrowind+Oblivion. As someone else put it the latest Beth games are not even linear. They are point. The same point repeated over and over again.

[JDR13]

Arena and Daggerfall were not the pinnacle of RPG excellence that some people try to make them out to be.

[Acleacius]

The problem is Bethseda's thinking and quest lines are linear and then they use Charm Spells on fans to trick most gamers into believing their games they have choices since they have open explorable worlds. ;)

OEWs are very nice to have in a game but if the quality of writing is inaine as in obflibion where the same actors lines are constantly repeated by 10s if not 100s of NPCs, not to mention there are not choices of concquence in 90%+ of their quests, seems pretty low bar for RPGs.

Even a game like Sacred had an OEW but didn't try to hide it was an Action/RPG, though I can't remember atm if they had choices of concequence which would actually put them above obflibion on the RPG quality scale. :)

Hey if bethseda actually hires someone cappble of writing an RPG, I will be in the crowd cheering.
It's possible they could write an RPG but seems highly unlikely and I am not sure they even care too, since they apparently can convence game reviewers and players of anything they or the PR department want them to believe. :)

I'll say this if they can pull of Shimmering Isles as an RPG it would be a sign they can do it and they have hired afaik some Fallout/Fallout 2 team members, if they did that's certianly a plus as well. :)

[Brother None]

Arena and Daggerfall were not the pinnacle of RPG excellence that some people try to make them out to be.

Indeed they are not. In fact, they're not RPGs at all, and had one of the worst combat system EVAH. If those two games were where TES is at now, I'd not be more pleased about their competence, 'cept that I would know they're loyal to their series, rather than showing a capability of disdaining franchises and fans.

Hey if bethseda actually hires someone cappble of writing an RPG, I will be in the crowd cheering.

Don't hold your hopes up. The list of ex-Fallout devs that Bethesda hired is shorter than the list of people that hate the Fallout community (Shadowstrider) that they hired.

[Dez]

I'm mostly worried of the same thing like corwin. Can benthesa make memorable npcs? Can they write stunning dialog? Can they write quests that have choises and real consequences? If not, the game is doomed to be a failure. Combat and other things are only trivial if it falls short in basics.

[doctor_kaz]

How are combat and other things trivial? They are the mechanics of the game and what you spend most of your time doing. Are you saying that gameplay doesn't matter? In that case, then Bethesda should just make a screensaver or a card battle game.

And let's face it, it's not like the previous Fallouts had great plots or dialog most of the time.

[Corwin]

Heresy!! The previous Fallouts had excellent stories and some of the best dialogue in any game!! Those plus original NPC's, MADE the series. Unfortunately, they are not Beth's strengths!!

[abbaon]

So what shall it be, Kaz? (http://madbrahmin.bonusweb.cz/fallout/zvuk/speech/master/Mast00.mp3)

[Dez]

Well its a matter of an opinion. :) However I didn't mean that game mechanics don't have any weight. Ofcourse they do! But at the end in a roleplaying game storyelements must come first! I want to explore and feel like i'm in a whole different world. I want game's npcs and plotline to make FEEL something! Give me a reason why I'm slaying hordes of monsters. :)

[Brother None]

The previous Fallouts had excellent stories

Main plot? Nope, definitely not Fallout's strength, something amusingly repeated by Cain-Anderson-Boyarsky in Arcanum. Great setting, great characters, hella weak main plot.

I mean, Fallout 1's fed-ex-quest followed by the find-and-kill-baddy quest are not exactly points of originality or great writing, and the fact that it was duplicated for Fallout 2 is even more stupid.

I always view Fallout's main storylines as intentionally one-dimensional, though, it allows for a lot more development of characters, a LOT more branching as the main line is not as involved and cooler side-quests.

[Corwin]

I include all the side quests in my comments on 'story', not just the main quest. Someone has to plot and write them as well, and each could be considered a short story in itself!!

[Acleacius]

I am having trouble thinking of previous games whom used solving water supply problems for your isolated community which would qualify Fallout's MS unoriginal, not sure how if your implying something about Wasteland which even the Devs point out was a peer.

Also it's kinda of an easy cheap shot to say an fairly original idea like a water shortage or broken water system is Fed-Ex.
Well yeah, duh you don't have water, your community needs it to survive, so you need to go somewhere do something and/or bring something back. :p

Additionally your not providing any basis for comparison other than generalizations to generic terms, so give us the/an original concept/story your comparing this to. :)

Not to mention having a character whom has lived in complete seclusion and then being forced to deal with the harsh realities of a Post Apocalyptic Wasteland.
I couldn't agree more about every encounter being part of the MS, since the story is about the PC's development which is much more complex to achieve than a purely action style in a different setting like Mad Max. :)

[doctor_kaz]

Fallout's story was nearly nonexistent. It had a great setting, but setting does not mean story. "Get the water chip" and "kill all the mutants" pretty much sums up Fallout's story. And Fallout 2's story was retarded. So was the amateurish pop culture reference dialog that was seemingly written by 16 year olds.

And then there's the dialog. Compared to Deus Ex, Anachronox, Baldurs Gate, Baldurs Gate 2, Planescape: Torment, Kotor, Kotor 2, Jade Empire, and NWN2, the dialog and quests in Fallout were exceedingly simple. Fallout's dialog is filled with "choices" that generally involve you being a nice guy or being mean and provoking a huge fight that makes everyone in the area your enemy. Provoke a fight with one guy in Junktown and you nerf every single quest in that town. Even NWN had more writing and dialog choices than Fallout. A lot more. Fallout deserves a lot of credit for having multiple outcomes to some situations and multiple ways to approach problems, but let's not kid ourselves, folks. That game was not a masterpiece of writing by a long stretch.

In both Fallouts, you spend about 10 times more time in combat than you do in conversation. Turn-based combat was a much larger part of the game than dialog.

Edit: Add Vampire - The Masquerade: Bloodlines in the list of games whose story and dialog are far superior to Fallout's.

[Ionstormsucks]

Fallout's story was nearly nonexistent. It had a great setting, but setting does not mean story. "Get the water chip" and "kill all the mutants" pretty much sums up Fallout's story. And Fallout 2's story was retarded. So was the amateurish pop culture reference dialog that was seemingly written by 16 year olds.

And then there's the dialog. Compared to Baldurs Gate, Baldurs Gate 2, Planescape: Torment, Kotor, Kotor 2, Jade Empire, and NWN2, the dialog and quests in Fallout were exceedingly simple. Fallout's dialog is filled with "choices" that generally involve you being a nice guy or being mean and provoking a huge fight that makes everyone in the area your enemy. Provoke a fight with one guy in Junktown and you nerf every single quest in that town. Even NWN had more writing and dialog choices than Fallout. A lot more. Fallout deserves a lot of credit for having multiple outcomes to some situations and multiple ways to approach problems, but let's not kid ourselves, folks. That game was not a masterpiece of writing by a long stretch.

I strongly have to disagree. I admit however that it is a matter of personal taste what exactely you consider to be a "good" story. Personally I perfer things like "get the water chip or we will all die" over "find out about your heritage." Stories about a heroe's individual past have become a dominant cliché in modern fantasy (and to a certain extent in Sifi as well). You can hardly touch a fantasy book nowadays in which the protagonist is not something special. Usually he has special abilities that are keyed to his past or heritage. Boring, I say.
What made Fallout's story special to me was that it wasn't presented to you on a silver plate. You were essentially free in a great gameworld and could actively search for clues. The game was extremly non-linear which made it harder to follow the main storyline, but for me it made it all the way more interesting. You could go wherever you wanted to go and you could "indulge" into the story as deep as you wanted. True the main plot "find a new waterchip" does not sound like much, but in a post-nuclear world it is a believable one.
And if you really think that Fallout featured only dialogues that offered you being either the good or the bad one... well, then you can't possibly have played the game for very long. Usually the dialogues in Fallout gave you quite a lot of coice. Very often for example you could use information that you recieved during the dialogue with one person in dialogues with other persons. That made it possible to play one faction off against another. I also think that most people enjoyed the dialogues in Fallout. Of course there was strong language in it, and yes, to a certain extent it was overly cool, but for me that's all part of the Fallout world.

[doctor_kaz]

Non-linear gameplay is not story. If it were, then Morrowind and Oblivion's stories would be masterpieces. Setting is not story either. Fallout had a great setting, no doubt. But the story was nonexistent. It can literally be summed up in seven words. "Get the water chip. Kill the mutants". I can't blame you for not being enamored with RPG cliche stories, but that doesn't make Fallout's any good.

As far as dialog "choices" go, Fallout's true choices were extremely few and far between. I don't remember having the chance to parlay with rad scorpions and mole rats during the game's numerous cave and underground sequences. If you had a high enough speech skill, you could solve a few situations, but the game is so combat heavy that it's extremely hard to finish the game on your first run through without tagging at least two combat skils. 95% of the dialog trees in the game are extremely short and simplistic, even with a high speech skill and high intelligence.

[Ionstormsucks]

Non-linear gameplay is not story. If it were, then Morrowind and Oblivion's stories would be masterpieces. Setting is not story either. Fallout had a great setting, no doubt. But the story was nonexistent. It can literally be summed up in seven words. "Get the water chip. Kill the mutants". I can't blame you for not being enamored with RPG cliche stories, but that doesn't make Fallout's any good.


Sorry, but I never said that. I said that Fallout's non-linear gameplay made it harder to follow the main storyline. But it was clearly there. You like a certain type of storyline - the epic one as it is featured in BG and similar games and that is something that Fallout does not offer. Fallouts story is very simplistic but that does not make it bad. Actually it is quite fitting for the genre - just think about the Mad Max movies... they all have a very simple story. The main storyline of Fallout is something that you discover as you go along and discover many other interesting stories. There is a lot to do and to see in Fallout, and I never felt bored because of a "non-existing" story. With Oblivion that is quite different - here I felt very bored.


As far as dialog "choices" go, Fallout's true choices were extremely few and far between. I don't remember having the chance to parlay with rad scorpions and mole rats during the game's numerous cave and underground sequences. If you had a high enough speech skill, you could solve a few situations, but the game is so combat heavy that it's extremely hard to finish the game on your first run through without tagging at least two combat skils. 95% of the dialog trees in the game are extremely short and simplistic, even with a high speech skill and high intelligence.

Well, it's a harsh world and not "Pony-Paradise". You seem to have your very own ideas, how a rpg should be structured, but there is no rule that every situation in a rpg has to be solvable through dialogue options - not that talking to rad scorpions would be possible anyway. It's Fallout - a postnuclear world that is full of nasties and assholes that want your stuff and a high diplomacy skill won't keep that brainless thug from beating the crap out of you to get the few bottlecaps you're carrying around.

In the end it all comes down to personal taste. You say that Fallout's dialogues were simple and short. But for me they were just right. I never really liked the endless dialogues in BG2 for example, but that doesn't make it a bad game... other people like you obviously greatly enjoyed them.
Same with combat - for me, Fallout had just the right amount of combat. I really enjoyed the turn based combat system and all the nifty weapons you could play with. And it's the same with the story also. Did Fallout have a very original story? Nope, not really. Did it not have one at all? It had one - and a very realistic one at that.

[Dhruin]

Fallout's story was nearly nonexistent. It had a great setting, but setting does not mean story. "Get the water chip" and "kill all the mutants" pretty much sums up Fallout's story.

You have defined story = plot, and it isn't that simple. Yes, Fallout had a simple overarching plot but the narrative was much more complex, as was the character development and so on.