To play new CRPG's or not? [Archive]

bjon045

October 18th, 2006, 08:38

The last 2 or 3 years have been a little hectic and I have not been able to put in the time I would like into playing CRPGs and it has got me thinking into how I should prioritise my playing time.

I recently started playing Neverwinter nights (both expansions + 1.68 patch) and have found it just as enjoyable as if I played a newly released RPG. Normally I would consider myself an early CRPG adopter but I am seriousily thinking about delaying my purchasing/playing of CRPGs in the future.

Here are some of the advantages I can think of:

*Less bugs (hopefully)
*More content via patches and expansions
*More online support/walkthroughs available via online forums etc

The big obvious downside:

*Missing out on playing the latest game
*Being ridiculed by your mates as they boast about playing the latest/greatest(debatable) game (G3, oblivion)

I just read the news article about Oblivion getting a small expansion (knights of the nine), I certainly won't be purchasing/playing it as I have already had my fill with oblivion, but if I had of waited would have my enjoyment been greater?

I am currently waiting on gothic3 and age of pirates to be patched to an satisfactory level and I am not even going to touch NWN2 till they release the first expansion pack(or 2). What does everyone else do?

Sei Daneic

October 18th, 2006, 09:20

I must admit that I jump on the new stuff as it comes out, as long as its good. I am currently playing Gothic 3 and loving it, and I am awaiting NWN 2 with great anticipation. Many RPG's that come out has no real depth and athmosphere, but that is not something new in the history of CRPG's. So I try out what seems promising, play the games that are good and discard what disappoints (Oblivion, as an example, was a huge disappointment in my mind)

Corwin

October 18th, 2006, 09:47

I tend to buy games on the day of release myself, and then suffer through the weeks of massive patching, or WAITING for a patch (Dungeon Lords anyone!! ). Still, sometimes I beta test games which can be fun for an inside track, while at other times, I'm asked to review a game which means I have to play the game first, sometimes without any patches at all. Like SD above, I began G3 today and have NWN2 on pre-order. I've been anticipating the latest Gothic for months and since I run NWN campaigns over a server, you can imagine that NWN2 has been high on my priority list ever since it was announced. Hey, sometimes bugs can be fun!! :)

slam23

October 18th, 2006, 09:56

Another advantage with waiting longer would be the nice prices in the bargain bin :-) I try a mixed strategy: I usually don't wait long for the big new title that I have followed through their development cycle like Oblivion and Gothic3/NWN2 because I probably will like them and I absolutely love proper paper manuals instead of the damnable PDF files on CD/DVD. Sadly they don't come as good any more as for instance with the Baldur's Gate series. So that would be another advantage in my view of buying early: good packaging (proper manual, cloth map etc). With titles I'm not really sure of, I wait till they hit the bargain bin. I did this with Dungeon Siege I (nice atmosphere but otherwise storyless clickfest) for example and Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines (buggy as hell but great story in a fresh setting, fan patches solved the first problem as far as I heard). Buying early for the full price is also meant as a full supportive thumbs up to the hardworking developers, I only regret that you also pay the producers in full. The only exception I would now make in my strategy is the same that you point out: with big titles that come with extensive modding capability, such as Oblivion, with what I know now about the game, I would have waited a bit longer for the decent patch, but especially with the super fan content. I'm with Sei Daneic and you that Oblivion would have been a disappointment if you only would judge the "vanilla" (= unpatched & unmodded) version, with the right combination of patches and mods it's a totally different game! If you only use a mod like OOO (Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul) it completely changes the playing experience AND smoothes out a lot of flaws in Vanilla Oblivion. But I already put in a lot of hours before that and that essentially spoiled some of the fun for me, changing the game continously while playing. So for NWN2: I probably buy early for the nice packaging but I'm gonna try keeping it on the shelf until some patches and good mod content is out.

Corwin

October 18th, 2006, 10:08

Some good points, especially about the price. I grabbed some early Oblivion mods myself and I still play heaps of NWN mods which makes that game the best value ever!! Some of the small Indy games are great to get early. They really care about their customers.

titus

October 18th, 2006, 10:26

I play a lot of older games too. Why? I can afford them and they are still as good as at the moment they cam out. Just recently finished Vampire the masqerade who I bought for a 20€ or so. When i finished Gothic 1 I went on a hunt for G2, guess what is was already out for some time, only played like 2 or 3 months ago KOTOR 1
the games stay good if they were good, eventhough they nedded some patches or so. So you can play the older games just as good as the new ones. Still looking for the fallout games in a price bargain :)

Maylander

October 18th, 2006, 10:42

I get new games as soon as possible if it's something I really want. Otherwise I wait for a cheaper, patched version to avoid buying a game and then letting it rot on the shelf.

And hello everyone. :)

Londonchris

October 18th, 2006, 13:29

I`m always years behind with my pc`s.
Least all games i get are well tested/patched/reviewed and with decent walkthroughs ect ect.
Well i`m about to start Gothic 1 now! ,and by the time i`m ready for #3 i will have a much better pc and hopefully a nicely ironed out game.

txa1265

October 18th, 2006, 14:22

I get stuff right away the majority of times ... which is a problem since I track FPS & RPG and also PC & DS & PSP ... plus get games outside of that for review purposes and buy the occasion non-FPS/RPG like Civ IV. That is a lot of stuff!

There are pros and cons - for me the worst thing about being an 'early adopter' is that I don't get to lavish attention on games like I used to. I mean, I've played Gothic 2 ~6 or so times through, but that is the exception. Most games get once through and that is it ... I'm really trying to focus my purchases and playing (and saying 'no' to free games for reviews every now and then helps ;) ) - so recently I've been able to replay Divine Divinity and am chugging through tons of NWN modules.

Mike

Corwin

October 18th, 2006, 15:03

Mike, the best way to chug through tons of NWN modules is to join a LAN type group and play with them!! Hint, hint!! :)

txa1265

October 18th, 2006, 15:28

I would, but my gaming time is severely fragmented, which is one reason I don't get into multiplayer in general (let alone MMO) - I might play 15 minutes of a game while the car warms up, perhaps something on the DS or PSP at lunch at work if I'm running a simulation at my desk, and so on. Nothing dependable ;)

October 18th, 2006, 19:02

Personally, unless the game is a sure title, like G3, I always wait for reviews from players here ( and from the Dot before as we are all the same lol ) to give me info I need to decide. This group has always been dead on in discriptions and reviews so I have never been disappointed with games I buy.

Jaz

October 18th, 2006, 21:14

Hm, I ran out of time over the years. I just can't afford to play as many games as I did back then, and there are very few new games I buy. If I really want a game, I won't wait until it comes to the budget bin; *but* I might read the first p/reviews, and if they speak about tons of bugs, I'll wait for patches before I get the game (as is the case with G3 right now).
If there's a game I really, really, really want to get my hands on, I won't even read the p/reviews, I'll just preorder (like Dark Messiah).

Sometimes, however, even waiting won't help. Only recently I re-started NWN, all patched up and ironed out, and re-quit playing the game only last week... I still find it boring :(.

LordRac

October 18th, 2006, 21:29

I would agree with Cmgamer. I tend to wait until many reviews have come in before deciding if I should give a new CRPG a try. I will sometimes check out metacritic or gamefaqs for reviews.

If nothing seems to be interesting to me then I'll look for abandonware CRPGs that got great reviews. That alone could keep me busy for many months until NWN2 and G3 get all their patches out. ;)

xSamhainx

October 18th, 2006, 22:13

Sometimes i get bitten by the anticipation bug and run out and buy a new title, like with Oblivion, but I generally wait otherwise. I wait til the games get patched up. I also have such a backlog of games, i cant help but feel kinda dumb to run out and grab a new title when i havent even finished what's on my plate yet!

Arma

October 18th, 2006, 22:23

I rarely get new titles these days as I have no rig to play them on. Sure, there is the occasional thing that sparks up my interest (like NWN2 these days) and makes me think of an upgrade, but still those a pretty rare.

titus

October 18th, 2006, 22:24

I have balders gate and icewind dale2 here, never played them longer than an hour before i got sick of those
Those are the only games I have and never finished or tried to finish

Severius

October 18th, 2006, 22:27

Most of the new rpg's lack the depth of the years gone by. I find that most of them can be completed alot quicker than something like Baldur's Gate or Planescape Torment. It seems that they are mostly action games with RPG trappings. Like Oblivion, very beautiful game, but no where near as deep as Arena or Morrowind. I think it is the curse of Blizzard that has caused this :P

aboyd

October 18th, 2006, 22:56

I re-started NWN, all patched up and ironed out, and re-quit playing the game only last week... I still find it boring :(.
That's funny. I just did the same thing. Hated NWN for 4 years, and then in September, restarted. However, I avoided all the original content. I only played mods. In particular, Tales of Arterra. Percy is a great NPC. Also, Darkness over Daggerford. And The HeX Coda. And Pirates, Wyvern Crown, etc. Once I got out of the NWN rut and started playing games that change the standard, boring dynamics, things got better. The HeX Coda turns NWN into sci-fi. That was interesting. Arterra finally gives us some memorable NPCs. I thought Arterra was very PS:T-like. Kingmaker gives us a cowardly wererat for an NPC, and he was hilarious. Wyvern Crown gives us horses & jousting. Pirates was the only game that got me into crafting. By trying these mods, I found NWN became something much better than what Bioware had put out.

I play a lot of older games too. Why? I can afford them and they are still as good as at the moment they cam out.
Agreed. Love buying a rich, deep RPG for $10. :) And since their requirements are very humble, there is little need to invest in new computer equipment.

I tend to buy games on the day of release myself, and then suffer through the weeks of massive patching, or WAITING for a patch (Dungeon Lords anyone!! ).
I think Dungeon Lords is probably the best argument for waiting. The new(er) Collector's Edition of Dungeon Lords is, according to many players, "what Dungeon Lords should have been in the first place." And many players don't want to pay twice for it. Well, I didn't. I waited until the Collector's Edition came out, and only then bothered to consider it.

Gothic 3 is having the same issue. NWN was an absolute nightmare when it first came out. The support forum was inundated with miserable customers, myself included, who just could not get the damn thing to run. I eventually built a computer specifically for NWN -- I had a NWN developer give me the exact specs of his computer, so I could perfectly reproduce a working system -- and even then it would slow to a crawl after a few hours. I hated it. But now, it's pretty much fine on a high-end rig.

And same with Arcanum. That was (supposedly) a buggy hell when it first came out. I don't know. I waited until 2 years after release, then bought it and immediately patched it. I never saw ANY issues with Arcanum. It was fast & responsive on my new PC, it never crashed, the in-game bugs with dialogue and combat never reared their ugly heads, etc. Being a late adopter definitely has its benefits when it comes to video games.

Gulshog

October 19th, 2006, 00:11

I like to try new CRPG's, but I never seem to have time to finish them. :(

txa1265

October 19th, 2006, 00:16

And same with Arcanum. That was (supposedly) a buggy hell when it first came out. I don't know. I waited until 2 years after release, then bought it and immediately patched it. I never saw ANY issues with Arcanum. It was fast & responsive on my new PC, it never crashed, the in-game bugs with dialogue and combat never reared their ugly heads, etc. Being a late adopter definitely has its benefits when it comes to video games.

I whole-heartedly agree! Being late to the RPG dance, I grabbed Arcanum, Lionheart and Pool of Radiance: RoMD as a bunch for $11 on eBay. I seldom remember exact amounts, but that buy was exceptional. Heck the 20+ hours of 'good' I got out of Lionheart before it devolved was worth that price! PoR was PoS ... but Arcanum ... truly wonderful game. You can still see areas of imbalance, but for me and my choices the couple times I've been through it, it has been wonderful!

Cormac

October 19th, 2006, 02:24

Since I was out of PC gaming for the last 10 years or so, I've been busy collecting and playing all -- or rather most of -- the better RPGs released during the period: Arcanum, the Fallouts, PS:T, the BGs, Gothic 2, etc. (only Daggerfall and Wiz8 left !) Yet I'll still buy on release any game that really interests me, like Oblivion, or the forthcoming NWN2 and Gothic 3.

It's really an embarrassment of riches, and I can't seem to devote enough time to each game like I used to when I was young and poor and had only a handful of games to play with.
Sorry for the sentimentality.

slam23

October 23rd, 2006, 09:19

Wow Cormac, I'm jealous! I can distinctly remember just buying PS:T with the idea that if Baldur's Gate I was great, PS:T would be worth checking out, same developers right?. This was way before I read pre- and reviews in mags or internet. So I was a total virgin going in that crazy Planescape setting. And it was the best game I've ever played. Nothing beats that feeling of not knowing. So I'm gettin' a little sentimental over here too, but that because of the fond memories!

aboyd

October 23rd, 2006, 10:25

Planescape: Torment is the only video game that ever managed to change my outlook on life and how I interact with others.

crpgnut

October 23rd, 2006, 17:23

Like many have already stated, I buy heavily anticipated games on the day of release (Oblivion, NWN2). Games that I'm unsure of (Gothic3, Dark Messiah) get to wait until I've read lots of reviews and for several patches to come out. By then, they're cheaper too :)

NFLed

October 26th, 2006, 00:22

I want to continue to play crpg's as much as possible and fortunately I'm generally able to do that so I don't have any crpg's I haven't played which I want to play. So for me the choice is whether to play a new crpg such as NWN2 or play crpg's I've already played and that's an easy choice I go for the new crpg (and replay the good older ones when there are no new ones).

cutterjohn

October 26th, 2006, 04:55

NWN: ahem, me too. As in I'm still slogging through the OC, about 1/2 way through the 2nd chapter if I guess correctly. It's linear, can be tedious, but I sort of like the combat. Hireling mostly does ok and stays out of the way, and my summoned pet does it's summoned pet thing which is pretty limited. (Playing dwarven cleric.)

My problem is that I regularly stop playing for weeks or months at a time, then have to re-learn the weird circle interface, re-check spells, feats, quests, journal, etc. But I've really found that I like this particular Bioware game much more so than I did their Infinity Engine games. The worst part is that I'm not really sure why...

Lemme see, also picked up KotOR this summer. Played about 5-8h or so, nothing really spectacular here yet... then again I'm not even remotely a Star Wars fanboy, so that may be part of the problem, although I do enjoy scifi and the odd space opera...

Oblivion. Agree with the others and independently arrived at the conclusion that the game was little more than graphics with a lousy attempt at a game attached to it one day while staring at a window asking myself: WTH why can't I enter through a window? climb a wall? then hear some NPC utter: "I saw a mud crab the other..."
EXIT. (It's worth getting to take a look at for a discount, e.g. Compuseless had it for $30 the other week...)

Dungeon Siege II: mindless Diablo 3D wannabe. Even though I only paid $20 for it, I still feel ripped off.

Dungeon Lords Collectors Edition: Heh. I never had the original and feel sorry for the people who bought the original and the bastards at Dreamcatcher for not releasing a v1.5 patch, but I sort of like this one even though I usually just abhor action "RPG"s by default.

PoR: too bad. I FONDLY remember the SSI gold box PoR. I still think it was one of SSI's best gold box AD&D games, and IMO the best of the PoR gold box series. I also like the Treasure of the Savage Frontier series. Then again I had an unnatural attraction to SSI RPGs back then, esp. Wizard's Crown & Eternal Dagger.

X2 & X3: While not RPGs are pretty decent open ended space sims if you ignore the fact that the combat is pretty lousy.

Wizardry 8: If you missed that one too, and can find it at a decent price(good luck) is worth picking up, especially if you like turn based combat set in a first person, most free roaming based world. Combat can tend to take quite a bit of time to resolve at the later levels though... and no you can't have and/or borrow my sacred copy(or even look at it...)

Gothic 2 Gold is decent, and reasonably priced.

Gothic 3. I'd wait for some more patches, and maybe a price drop or 2.

Mage Knight: Apocalypse: I believe that txa1265 may have some commentary on that one... review?

Dark Messiah: Isn't that basically a FPS mostly using melee weapons?

(In that case I'm eagerly awaiting Half Life Episode 2, most importantly, with Team Fortress 2 as I still regularly play TFC...)

Severius

October 26th, 2006, 13:46

Planescape: Torment is the only video game that ever managed to change my outlook on life and how I interact with others.

Ultima 4 kind of had that effect on me especially as I was what 13 or 14 when I started playing that I think.

woges

October 26th, 2006, 19:32

I pre-ordered Oblivion being a fan of Daggerfall and Morrowind. I'm not a big fan of it however - the levelling of everything system just makes it a playable demo to me. The main quest is the only real meat in the game the rest is mostly trivial. Having said that it has not stopped me pre-ordering Dark Messiah & Neverwinter 2, I wasn't a big fan of the first Neverwinter either - but 2 seems to have reverted to a more IE mechanic game play that I did enjoy.

Jaz

October 27th, 2006, 11:33

Ultima 4 kind of had that effect on me especially as I was what 13 or 14 when I started playing that I think.
There really was a game which changed my outlook not on life, but which made me think. It's a long story, actually, and I'm at work and shouldn't be typing this, anyway, but the game was Rogue Spear. It wasn't about the story, but the game made me question game ethics in regard to AI (don't laugh). Interestingly enough, I saw the movie 13th Floor shortly after that day.
Nowadays, the ethics/AI debate is a rather common topic, so I obviously wasn't the only one who harbored these thoughts (I actually felt bad 'possessing' characters with usually fixed routines).

Black_Lord

November 7th, 2006, 06:46

I am in the same boat as Arma. Many new games interest me but I'm still playing NWN, Demise, and MoM. I need a complete new rig I don't have money for.

I am not convinced that a better looking crpg means a more immersive gaming experience. Gameplay seems to fall by the roadside somewhere. Well, at least I missed Oblivion, just not on purpose. Gothic 3 I would love to play!

bjon045

November 7th, 2006, 07:18

Corwin

November 7th, 2006, 09:44

I remember Demise, I still have the original CD and manual from when it was first released!! I didn't like the fact you couldn't save.

Black_Lord

November 7th, 2006, 16:47

Corwin

November 8th, 2006, 03:05

Yeah, that's what I did, but that's a TOTAL pain, especially considering how frequently I blundered into more trouble than I could handle!! :biggrin:

aboyd

November 8th, 2006, 03:58

I finished Horders of the underdark and I am in the interlude chapter of Shadows. The OC is just too boring for me to continue playing. After I finish up shadows I have to try a few user created modules, then I am thinking about giving M&M7 another shot.

I gave up on the 3 main OC modules. I couldn't finish any of them. But man, some of the player-created modules are great.

Tales of Arterra = 3 NPCs in your party, lots of banter, planar travel, romance options.
Kingmaker = hilarious NPCs. Must take the wererat.
Wyvery Crown of Cormyr = horses you can ride.
Darkness Over Daggerford = stronghold, overworld map, similar to Baldur's Gate in spirit.
The HeX Coda = science fiction.

-Tony

Dray

November 8th, 2006, 04:22

Planescape: Torment is the only video game that ever managed to change my outlook on life and how I interact with others.

I think I was around 14 or 15 when I started to play U7 and it had the same effect on me. It was the virtue system which I connected with, and it made me think more about life in general. Sounds bizzare, but 14 is an impressionable age :) I think I'm a better person for it now.

Corwin

November 8th, 2006, 04:31

I still have this vivid U7 memory: I stole something and not only did Dupre leave my party, but he took his sword and dropped it in the water!! Powerful!! I re-loaded very quickly!! :)

Ubbax

November 8th, 2006, 23:39

I remember Demise, I still have the original CD and manual from when it was first released!! I didn't like the fact you couldn't save.

You can save. Do a manual backup then restore when something really bad happens. In that game something bad generally happens.

Nice to see I'm not alone. I also have the earlier Interplay version titled "Infinite Worlds" which was never released retail as well as the Demo for it kicking around here somewhere. I'm sure if I dig deep enough, down in the depths the original Mordor versions are to be found as well.

The two of you are probably already aware, but in case your not you can still purchase these and the patched versions over at Decklin's:

http://www.decklinsdomain.com/Games/GameIndex.htm

http://decklinsdemise.com/index.htm

Ubbax
"We don't stop playing because we grow old...
We grow old because we stop playing."
-George Bernard Shaw

JDR13

November 10th, 2006, 14:54

I have balders gate and icewind dale2 here, never played them longer than an hour before i got sick of those
Those are the only games I have and never finished or tried to finish

That brings tears to my eyes. Those are 2 of the best crpg's ever made my friend. Playing through BG and then importing your character into BG2 is pure bliss.

ToddMcF2002

November 10th, 2006, 14:59

That brings tears to my eyes. Those are 2 of the best crpg's ever made my friend. Playing through BG and then importing your character into BG2 is pure bliss.

Icewind Dale? Really? I played ID1 until about chapter 4 or so but it seemed pretty light on story compared to BG. Hack and Slash.

JDR13

November 10th, 2006, 15:03

He said IWD2.

I really enjoyed both of them. IWD2 was better, but they were both good. They weren't meant to be big on story. Plus IWD2 used the 3rd Edition D&D ruleset.

ToddMcF2002

November 10th, 2006, 15:10

I'll have to give IWD2 a try. A few months back I tried BG2 for about an hour immediately after completing BG1. I got annoyed at the lightning bolt ricochet. The Infinity games are the only D&D games that implemented that lame feature and it drives me nuts.

JDR13

November 10th, 2006, 15:17

BG2 is not for the weak that's for sure. I got frustrated many times during that game, and had to look online for help more than once. Once you get hooked though, it's pure joy. I loved the variety of monsters and items in that game. The Infinity engine did a better job of capturing the atmosphere of D&D than any engine since. NWN single player felt like a cheap whore in comparison.

titus

November 12th, 2006, 17:59

That is the problem with me, for some reason I can't get hooked up to bg, really tried because I knew it was one of the most famous games around, but I just can't. other games i feel me becoming the lead person, in bg or ID I just dont feel it

Jaz

November 12th, 2006, 18:34

Same here, started both BGs back when they came out bundled and never really caught fire. Both remain unfinished as I didn't feel the urge to play on. It was the same with DS and NWN later on... and completely the opposite with PS:T where I couldn't stop playing, much to hubby's chagrin.

sealight4

November 12th, 2006, 18:35

After dungeon Lords I promised myself to wait but still preorder. It's best to wait and have a backlog of patched games if you can.

JDR13

November 14th, 2006, 07:32

Sorcha Ravenlock

November 14th, 2006, 10:56

Never got into BG1 and 2, but I loved Icewind Dale 2. it was my first teambased cRPG.
After that I got into NWN and Morrowind, and haven't found anything as good as those two since...

Zaleukos

November 20th, 2006, 14:52

If one can keep ones head cool it is better to wait for at least 3-4 months. Objectively this goes almost every time. The only RPGs that I have that were reasonably bug-free upon release are the BGs, the IWDs, and Oblivion (which lacked in other areas, but it was at least bug free). Especially open ended RPGs require delicate balancing and checking for script bugs, and unless one builds on a familiar engine (like the infinity engine games post BG1 did) this is difficult to pull of in one go. If you wait for a few months you'll likely see a few patches and maybe a price drop, and maybe even an expansion:)

That said I dont have the discipline to keep my cool today and wait when encountering a new title from devs I trust, or sequels to titles I like. I got Gothic 3 very soon after release (even though I knew the predecessors took quite some patching to run well). I played through half of the game before patch 1.08 finally balanced the boars...

The list of RPGs that were well patched by the time I got them is luckily longer, though many purchases were staved off by me not meeting hardware requirements (I didnt upgrade my PC any time between 1997 and 2004).

Found in the budget bin and well patched:
BG1 + TotSc (might well be my best value for money ever), BG2 + ToB, Icewind Dale I&II, Arcanum (only took this up seriously last week as I couldnt get past the beginning before), Gothic I&II(was hard to get, I only bought it after finishing BG), Morrowind (due to hardware requirements:p Unfortunately even the patched MW crashes A LOT, but it still kicks its sequel in the nuts), Might and Magic VI-VIII, Darklands...

Demise and Gothic 3 are the ones that I got immediately, both were buggy but playable on the initial release.

If we go outside the RPG world to the strategy games that I enjoy they tend to be buggy as hell upon initial release... Paradox Interactive (Europa Universalis, Hearts of Iron, Victoria, Crusader Kings) might be worse than ANY RPG developers when it comes to bug ratio upon release, but they do have a good patching policy. Always wait for 3-4 months before getting one of their games:p

Waiting also has the benefit that you are more likely to have hardware able to run the game on full settings. The problem for us is however that not that many good RPGs are released, so it is tempting to jump at interesting titles immediately when they come out.

EDIT: I really miss the days when games were bug-free upon release:p The gold box games (except Dark Queen of Krynn), Eye of the beholder, etc were always playable out of the box.

txa1265

November 20th, 2006, 15:10

Corwin

November 21st, 2006, 01:35

Back in the 'old' days, there wasn't a great deal of variation in PC's, now, no two rigs are remotely alike and the devs have to try to create a game which will work under all these possibilities, something console devs don't have to worry about. This, I think, is one reason modern games have so many initial bugs!!

KazikluBey

November 21st, 2006, 01:58

The reason so many PC games are shipped with a slew of initial bugs is that the publishers get away with it, since most people won't experience any game breaking bugs, the ones that do can be told to download patches. Same thing with non game breaking bugs, they get away with it.

Zaleukos: Yes, Paradox patching drives me nuts, though the games are usually significantly improved by the last patch. Not that that'll stop me from buying Europa Universalis 3 on release day. <3

Zaleukos

November 21st, 2006, 10:04

Corwin: I'd say the "slight" increase in the size of the program code has made debugging tougher, but that's only a part of the story:p On the other hand Windows post 95, Direct X, OpenGL , and other technologies have given developers vastly improved and standardized APIs. There is really no excuse for a hardware incompatibility to cause anything more than a "hardware not supported"-type message (Like I got when I tried to start Morrowind on my -97 vintage PC) or a poor frame rate. Sure, having to create multiple object detail levels and texture adds to the workload, but it shouldnt induce bugs per se. Changing things like viewing distance in a modern 3D engine doesnt add much to the programming complexity either.

Many bugs arent hardware related either but faults in game logic that appear on all systems, things that should have been discovered by proper quality control procedures. The flawed scripting in the beginning of Gothic 3 is one example. Replaying the start two or three times would have shown the devs that doing things out of order makes the player miss out on an important part of the background story (strangely enough I havent encountered any other such scripting bugs, so I wonder how they could have missed this one)! I am with Kazik in that devs let this slip because they can get away with it. I play niche games with relatively loyal, computer literate, and forgiving fanbases. Thus devs like Paradox/PB and publishers like Jowood can get away with bugs. Their customers love the unique franchises and dont have anywhere else to go.

If you on the other hand take any EA sports franchise, a FPS, or a run of the mill RTS, that cater to a more fluid and impatient mass market they tend to be much more polished (at least in the technical sense:p) and require much less patching... And this doesnt just go for the big teams like EA.

Markets do and should work like that. Sellers sell as little as possible for as much as customers are prepared to pay. The power we as customers have is the power to vote with our feet, and in the RPG world we would probably do that if there were more titles to choose from:p

Kazik: I'll get EU3 eventually, but not on release day. Not after the immortal monarchs of EU2 1.0 or the ghost popes of Crusader Kings:p I trust them to patch it up nicely in 3-6 months, and if I have something else to play or books to read I can wait for that long:)