BioWare - Interview Part 2 @ CVG

[Dhruin]

CVG has kicked up the second part of their interview (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=155829) with BioWare's Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk on PC gaming:
In what areas do you think the PC gaming scene needs to develop, and as a developer what efforts are you making to move it in that direction?

Ray Muzyka: In many ways the PC gaming scene is developing in the ways we think it should - developers are taking advantage of the PC's strengths by building online-enabled games (both MMOs and games with connectivity, strong post-release content as featured in BioWare's Dragon Age etc). Some developers are building the more casual games which draw in non-gamers to the PC gaming market and others are focusing on episodic content - both are exciting initiatives.

At BioWare we're trying to be innovative and push the realm of story- and character-based games in new directions. In our upcoming title Jade Empire: Special Edition for PC, we're combining a couple of different ideas - a really strong role-playing game with a great storyline with a martial arts setting and combat system. With Dragon Age we're pushing the boundaries of post-release content and user-generated content - we're really excited about what we have planned for DA to continue the storyline and expand the epic world for our fans.

And for the BioWare Austin MMO we're incorporating a really compelling non-linear storyline and strong characters, together with all the fun things MMO players expect and deserve (great progression and customization, social systems and exploration) - truly a first and what promises to be a major innovation in the field of online massively multiplayer gaming.
More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=3576)

[fatBastard()]

Blergh!

Am I the only one feeling BioWare's status as one of the greats is in a free fall towards rock bottom at the moment?

With Dragon Age we're pushing the boundaries of post-release content and user-generated content - we're really excited about what we have planned for DA to continue the storyline and expand the epic world for our fans.
"World Template Holder" is what I'm reading here. For all those of you who've enjoyed multiplayer and home made mods for NWN this should be good news. For those of us who enjoy the strong singleplayer experiences that made BioWare famous in the first, it sounds a lot like yet another "engine/world teaser" akin to the original campaign in NWN where the joints in the module system was so prominent it made me trip on several occasions.

However, where the NWN problem was mainly caused by focusing too much on the toolset and multiplayer aspect (as I understand it), it would seem that it is a deliberate decision in DA's case since no release date has yet been announced (i.e. it is not a question of running out of time).

Oh well, business wise it makes perfect sense and I always knew it would come to this when KOTOR and later Jade Empire was announced but it is still sad to see one of the last bastions of PC gaming greatness succumb to the lure of the green paper :'(

[PatrickWeekes]

"World Template Holder" is what I'm reading here.

What you read into it is up to you, but that's by no means what's intended.

I'm not on DA, but assuming that the art department can support the story the design department is trying to tell, you're going to be getting a long-ass game. (Everything I say in this paragraph after this is utter speculation, because all these estimates mean nothing until we get to play it and see what works, what gets cut, and how long everything actually taks to play.) We're talking "as long as KotOR if you do the bare minimum, and close to BG2 if you do everything" long.

If you want to rip on the NWN original campaign, go ahead. It wasn't my favorite either, but it's fun to play multiplayer. It also paved the way for Shadows and Hordes, both of which had great stories. But take a look at KotOR and Jade. Do you see BioWare skimping on the story? Rising art costs and the increased cost of conversations means that the games featured fewer side quests, yeah (and that's something we're addressing), but I don't think you can look at any of our recent games and say that we're skimping on strong story-driven games.

Expanded content means that when the main DA game is done, you've got additional stuff to hold you over until the sequel. It means that by the time you go through the game the second time (as an elf instead of a dwarf, for example), you've got some additional plots to play as part of the core game. Maybe it's stuff cut from the core game for time, or maybe it's stuff that we added after seeing how the first game played (and what people wanted). It doesn't mean that the first game is just a placeholder.

Oh well, business wise it makes perfect sense and I always knew it would come to this when KOTOR and later Jade Empire was announced but it is still sad to see one of the last bastions of PC gaming greatness succumb to the lure of the green paper :'(

Or, you know, not. There are probably one or two guys at the company who'd still like to make good games.

[Corwin]

Thanks Patrick, all of that is very encouraging!!

[aries100]

I understand what you're saying Patrick about the rising art and conversations costs, but as far as I know, it is not US, the rpg gamers, which have demanded that game devs. and publishers start making glittery, glossy, (or photorealistic) games. It is, afaik, something
the devs. and the publishers themselves have decided. (I could, of course, be wrong).

If, for instance, I look at the PR for Dragon Age and Mass Effect, at the bioware site, there isn't any mention of the story in the PR for these games. For Dragon Age, it just says something about the exploration of Baldur's Gate, the community of Neverwinter Nights,
and the moral choice of I think Jade Empire or Kotor, or something like that. This just make me wonder --- geee -- where's the story in dragon age...

I don't (and that is just my personal opinion) a long game, if that means that the story isn't there to support a very long narrative in the game. I would rather then have a shorter game, which supports the narrative in the game. BG1 still feel like an epic game to
me, even if you just could reach level 7 or 8, simply because narrative supported the main story as well as the side stories or quests in the game.

To me then, it is NOT how many game hours you are able to play the game that makes it a good game; it is how good the story is. A very good story can be told in maybe 10-12 hours while a very boring storing can be told in 36 hours. The point is that I would rather have game in which there is a solid, stable and good short narrative which enables me to
feel that the choices I make really do effetct the entire game world, rathen than a very long storyline where my choices hasn't any impact on the gameworld whatsoever.
Bg1 + bg2 are fine examples of this, as are, imo, neverwinter nights and have I heard, jade empire.

Sometimes people often interpret the same words in a different way and many times this is the basis for the lack of understanding between people. To me, focusing on strong story-driven games may be one thing, while to you, Patrick, and to Bioware, this may mean a totally different thing. Of course, bioware's own interpretation of this could also well have changed over the years...

[aries100]

One of the reasons why the costs of episodic content has gone up, is probably that
today, you'll ned full voiceovers for all (major) characters, where in the old days
(not that long ago ;) ) you could do with written dialoque, or written and spoken
dialoque for the most important characters.

However, for non-native English speakers, as myself and others, it has proven to be really helpful to be able to read what the characters were saying at the same as they were saying it: sort of: read and hear at the same time. This would mean, at least to me, that
I could get hold of (some) information by reading the things being said, which I would missed, had I not been able to read it also. For hearing impaired peope or deaf people
to be able to read what is being said is great help also.

I think I've read somewhere that I will be possible to turn on subtitles ?
I just wondered if this information still is valid ??

[PatrickWeekes]

I understand what you're saying Patrick about the rising art and conversations costs, but as far as I know, it is not US, the rpg gamers, which have demanded that game devs. and publishers start making glittery, glossy, (or photorealistic) games. It is, afaik, something
the devs. and the publishers themselves have decided. (I could, of course, be wrong).

It sure as HECK isn't us. I don't wanna go back to 2-D, but I also don't wanna have the story we want to tell limited by the fact that art is more detailed and memory-intensive.

If, for instance, I look at the PR for Dragon Age and Mass Effect, at the bioware site, there isn't any mention of the story in the PR for these games. For Dragon Age, it just says something about the exploration of Baldur's Gate, the community of Neverwinter Nights,
and the moral choice of I think Jade Empire or Kotor, or something like that. This just make me wonder --- geee -- where's the story in dragon age...

Three answers:
1) Does BioWare have to tell CRPG people that the game they're writing has a strong story? That's what we DO. There are always going to be companies with deeper combat engines than we've got. There are always going to be companies wth better graphics than we've got. There are always going to be companies with more side quests than we've got. (Not a self-slam. We don't devote as many art or combat resources to a game as other companies do, because we're working on other stuff.) But if you pick up a BioWare game, you're going to get a world-class story. That's what we deliver.
2) Did you read the PC Gamer article about Dragon Age? There was all kinds of talk about the story -- not a lot of plot-specifics, but a ton of "Here's the grim & gritty, here's the moral ambiguity, here are the tough choices we're gonna be giving you" stuff.
3) Mass Effect's demos have hit the conversation system and the combat system. The latter doesn't relate to the story much, but the first is what helps define the story in some ways -- hearing your character actually say a line is part of creating a stronger character, and the goal here is that it's going to mean more to hear your avatar actually SAY, "We need to take out that base. If a few people have to die to make that happen, so be it," than it would to just read the words on the screen.

Sometimes people often interpret the same words in a different way and many times this is the basis for the lack of understanding between people. To me, focusing on strong story-driven games may be one thing, while to you, Patrick, and to Bioware, this may mean a totally different thing. Of course, bioware's own interpretation of this could also well have changed over the years...

For me, "strong story" is, yeah, a little nebulous, but a few easy rules of thumb for me are:

1) Do I make a choice that results in a weaker reward (less loot) because the story makes me actually want to do that?
2) Do I get emotionally involved with the characters to the point where I care what happens to them?
3) Do the fighting areas have anything in them to engage me on a story level, not just on a dungeon-hack level?
4) Do your choices affect the story?

BioWare games have always had good examples of #1 -- you turn down the reward because you're a nice guy, for example. As we get more complex stories, the choices get more complex, too -- which is good, because "Be nice guy, turn down reward" doesn't qualify as a real choice for me at this point. It's not like the 200 gold pieces you pass up is really helping you that much.

I've been impressed with BioWare on #2, but for a non-RPG example, take the "Prince of Persia: Sands of Time". I really liked the story in that game -- I thought it was a charming love story with some genuine tenderness, and I was emotionally invested when all the stuff at the end happened (he says elliptically to avoid spoilers).

NWN2 is a good example of #3 -- the underground crypts full of undead are nice little dungeons, but there's always a story bit in there to pull you along and remind you about what you're doing. You're not just randomly hacking a dungeon, here. You're always doing something relating to the overall story.

As for #4, the fact that you can change the ending, corrupt or kill your followers, and turn the course of large plots by siding with one team or the other is what makes both KotOR and Jade Empire story-strong games for me.

This is all off the top of my head. I'm sure there are story factors beyond that. But for me, those are the easy ones to gauge whether it's a strong story.

And yeah, every game we're making has those concepts as important priorities in the stories.

[PatrickWeekes]

PS: I don't think BioWare will ever ship a game where you can't turn on the subtitles. Forget deaf people and foreign-language speakers. I have to play half of my games with the volume down because I don't wanna wake up my kid! I played all of Hordes of the Underdark on mute, and I watch most of my television shows with the closed-captioning on. The subtitles have to be available for us to playtest on, and you know? If BioWare ever ships a game without subtitles visible and no game option to turn 'em on, I will personally tell you how to edit the .ini file to make them appear -- 'cause that's what I'll be doing myself.

[Sorcha Ravenlock]

2) Do I get emotionally involved with the characters to the point where I care what happens to them?

KOTOR did that to me, and now I find NWN2 doing the same. Deekin had a similar effect in soU and HoTU, he was more then just a henchie to me, and so was Tomi Undergallows (Oh, to have had a romance option with Tomi... ;) )
If a game can do that, get me emotionally involved with the NPCs and the gameworld, then it's a winner for me :)

[fatBastard()]

We're talking "as long as KotOR if you do the bare minimum, and close to BG2 if you do everything" long.
Oh well, that's nice to hear. I'm not exactly known for my bright and "happy go lucky" point of view so I do tend to see the black before the white.

If you want to rip on the NWN original campaign, go ahead. It wasn't my favorite either, but it's fun to play multiplayer. It also paved the way for Shadows and Hordes, both of which had great stories.
Yep, if either of the expansion packs had been the main campaign I would have been hard pressed to find any faults with the game at all. Or a combination. The first chapter of the original campaign along with several sidequests in the following chapters (like the one with the ghost town and the 2 brothers) were actually pretty good but I clearly felt the modular "seems" throughout the campaign.

But take a look at KotOR and Jade. Do you see BioWare skimping on the story? Rising art costs and the increased cost of conversations means that the games featured fewer side quests, yeah (and that's something we're addressing), but I don't think you can look at any of our recent games and say that we're skimping on strong story-driven games.
That's not what I meant but I didn't write it properly so that's my fault. I REALLY liked KOTOR and I've been looking forward to Jade Empire for quite some time since I'm a nut for martial arts and asian movies. BUT, both games where developed with the "main stream" audience in mind, i.e. the console audience. I'm not trying to start yet another PC vs. consoles debate so suffice to say that KOTOR (and Jade Empire as well judging by reviews) was a "light weighter" when it came to the core gameplay and several "console gimmicks" were put into the game (pazzak, pod racing and turret shooting). Again, business wise this is/was a smart move since even the most hard core PC "fan boi" can't deny that the consoles are where the money is at these days, yet speaking as one of these PC relics it saddened me nonetheless since these "adjustments" made in KOTOR to accommodate the console audience was clearly felt in the game.

KOTOR was a cross platfrom title. Jade Empire was an Xbox exclusive and the same is the case with Mass Effect. Another part of the interview, that I didn't quote went as follows:
Some developers are building the more casual games which draw in non-gamers to the PC gaming market and others are focusing on episodic content - both are exciting initiatives.
While it doesn't say that BioWare themselves are doing this, I can't help but read it as BioWare supporting with words and action the move towards targeting the casual gamer and episodic content.

Expanded content means that when the main DA game is done, you've got additional stuff to hold you over until the sequel.
In another thread concerning BioWare and episodic content you mentioned the quarterly release of the 4 parts that make up "Shadows of the Undrentide" as an example of episodic releases. That would mean that it would take a year from start to finish and that is simply not a viable option for me. I play a LOT of games and only very few games ever stay on my HD for more than a month, so even regular releases every 3 months is much too slow to hold my interest and I would MUCH rather get the whole shebang in one expansion pack. I haven't purchased HL2 Episode 1 and if I can get "Team Fortress 2" without buying Episode 2 then I'm not going to buy that one either. Once all 3 episodes have been done I'll buy it, but not until they are done. I would be really mad if I had gotten into the Sin Episodes fad only to find out it got cancelled after the very first episode. For that very same reason, I don't watch cliff hanger television shows like Lost, Prison Break or Alias until I'm certain they are not cancelled ahead of time.

All in all I have to say that according to MY gaming tastes (with emphasis on this being my personal point of view), it seems like BioWare started a slide towards focusing on the "main stream consumer"/"casual gamer" rather than the "core" audience ever since the shift towards consoles and lately it would seem that the slide is picking up speed. Of course being 33 I've reached the age where the colours seemed brighter and the air did indeed seem cleaner when I was a child back in the "good old days" ... so perhaps I'm just becoming the grumpy old git sitting on his porch in his rocking chair, waving his cane around and screaming at those damn noisy kids passing on the street and resenting change in any shape and form.

[Moriendor]

But if you pick up a BioWare game, you're going to get a world-class story. That's what we deliver.

You actually meant to add a couple of "in the future"'s to those statements, right? :biggrin:

[curious]

@patrick-so is music and vocal tones, etc. not a crucial part of the story making/writing process for you? i can understand that making and playing games can be done completely in different mindsets. that said, you really should try gaming with headphones on, once you do i doubt you'll go back.

[PatrickWeekes]

You actually meant to add a couple of "in the future"'s to those statements, right? :biggrin:

No, I was actually implying that we write good games with strong stories.

If you disagree, make an argument without hiding behind smilies.

Curious: I use headphones at times, but when we had the new baby, I needed to be able the little dude wake up from his nap. I've played through Hordes four or five times, though, and honestly, at least in Hordes, the presence or absence of music and VO didn't make any difference for me. Maybe it's just that I'm not that much of an auditory-experience person, or maybe it's that the reading works so well for me that I don't need the sound. (Or maybe it's just that Hordes wasn't built from the ground up to provide a certain auditory experience -- it might have been harder with KotOR or Jade. I dunno.)

When I do it on a TV show, though, it has to be one where I know the characters' voices -- I can watch Buffy with subtitles and be just fine, because I know how Xander would deliver that line.

[Acleacius]

I hate those blantent m$ questions, being asked to people whom work (even as contractors) m$, what are they going to do besides pull the line with perfunctatory PR statments?

This is not an attack on Bioware, just personal observation about gamemedia site, suckup qualities. :)

"as an epic RPG, the digital actors are probably going to be the most credible, realistic characters ever yet seen in a videogame and the uncharted worlds promise amazing exploration and depth."

This is the most exciting part of the whole interview, if this is true, everyone whom cares about story and depth will certianly be pleased to know the best is yet to come. ;)

Trying to look at this objectively I would say they will be going up against Trokia which is going to be damn hard to beat, more specificly they will be going against Bloodlines.
I have enjoyed Bioware games very much, I am not sure they have had the best NPCs in the past, damn good but not the best, still even if they don't achieve "The Best", in my eyes it's a damn noble effort to attempt. :)

Give'um Hell, PatrickWeeks! :cheer: :standingovation: :)

OT
Does anyone know how to stop the forced Windows Media Player Streaming on the bottom left of CVG's site?
I don't use wmp but it installs automaticly with the OS, I have it shutdown on almost all accounts even during install using swithes to prevent it from updating, with this exception it will not do anything unless I approve it first.

Secondly the top logo for CVG which cycles is that Java or Flash and can it be frozen prevneted from loading?

Thanks for any tips. :)

[PatrickWeekes]

I hate those blantent m$ questions, being asked to people whom work (even as contractors) m$, what are they going to do besides pull the line with perfunctatory PR statments?

Well, I'm here because I'm enjoying the discussion. (And, well, because one of you found my blog. For anyone still reading my blog, woooo, I finished my novel, and yes, I promise to post some work stuff again soon.)

I've got a line to walk. There are certain things I can't comment on, because I would... well, I wouldn't get fired, but I would be asked clearly to stop talking here. That's just a duh. So I'm not going to comment on certain things (including which things I can't comment on, since in many cases the fact that I can't comment on it is a clue). :)

But y'know, I'm not at BioWare for the money. I left my job to be a stay at home dad, since my wife had a really nice tech job in Bay Area California. BioWare e-mailed me on the day we got home with the hospital to say that they wanted to interview me based on another employee's recommendation. My wife looked at me and said, "You know, it'd be crazy to try to move to Canada right now, but this is your dream job, right?" And here we are. I'm not a marketing shill. I'm not an academic game-theory expert. I'm a guy who bought pretty much every BioWare game they made and then nailed his dream job by writing a couple of short stories featuring talking magical swords.

So yeah, there are aspects of our games that I wish were stronger. We're dealing with some of those things in our upcoming games, and I've got hopes. I think Mass Effect will be a step in the right direction in terms of side quests (assuming stuff doesn't fall through the floor in the next few months), and Dragon Age will be an even bigger step beyond that... and Revolver, the secret game, is gonna blow people away. I'm not saying that there are no other good games out there, and yeah, there are specific areas of other games that I think BioWare could really learn from.

But "Haha, your games suck and your writing is lame," is an easy way to help me decide to do other things with my time. (Like learning how item crafting works in NWN2, for example.)

Trying to look at this objectively I would say they will be going up against Trokia which is going to be damn hard to beat, more specificly they will be going against Bloodlines.
I have enjoyed Bioware games very much, I am not sure they have had the best NPCs in the past, damn good but not the best, still even if they don't achieve "The Best", in my eyes it's a damn noble effort to attempt. :)

Hey, my favorite follower was the tiefling from PS:T. Mmmmm. :)

[Acleacius]

"Well, I'm here because I'm enjoying the discussion."

Doh!, I sure hope you didn't think I was talking about you I even put up a cavot about it being driected that the interviewers. :(

I meant the site asking Ray and Greg about m$, you know the dx10 stuff and windows for game (crap ...) errr...I meant beacon of shining light of rightousness for all of mankind. :)
Actually several game engine designers currently not employeed by m$ said having to by vista to get dx 10 is nonsence and vista is not needed only to fix XP.

"my favorite follower was the tiefling"

Yummy, tieflings taste like chicken. ;)

[Corwin]

Everything tastes like chicken!! :)

[Moriendor]

No, I was actually implying that we write good games with strong stories.

If you disagree, make an argument without hiding behind smilies.

Nah. Thanks. I think I'll stay right here behind my stupid little smilie face :) since I'm too afraid to die from being awe-struck if I should be allowed to talk to Your Holiness Mr. World-Class Writer and...

But "Haha, your games suck and your writing is lame," is an easy way to help me decide to do other things with my time.

... [aside from the fact that no one said this] ... that's real world-class behavior to threaten to leave when someone makes a harmless joke about the track record of the company Your Holiness works for.
Well, I certainly wouldn't want it to be my fault if Your Holiness Mr. World-Class Writer would pack up and leave because of harmless jokes from my unworthy little self.
So I'll just shut up and will leave you to your 'Thanks, Patrick this' and 'Thanks Patrick that' followers who seem to be more able than me to truly appreciate the presence of a world-class writer on these boards and his willingness to spend time with us unworthy plebs.

Carry on...

[Corwin]

Mo, I think you are OVER reacting just a little, which is most unlike you!! :)

[ToddMcF2002]

This is the best thread I've read on this site yet. Patrick - thanks for stopping by - and rest assured not everyone is negative on Bioware products. Far from it!

[PatrickWeekes]

... [aside from the fact that no one said this] ... that's real world-class behavior to threaten to leave when someone makes a harmless joke about the track record of the company Your Holiness works for.

We disagree on the definition of what constitutes a harmless joke about the company My Holiness works for.

So I'll just shut up and will leave you to your 'Thanks, Patrick this' and 'Thanks Patrick that' followers who seem to be more able than me to truly appreciate the presence of a world-class writer on these boards and his willingness to spend time with us unworthy plebs.

Speaking of things nobody said, let's discuss what I asked you to do. I didn't ask for universal praise. I didn't ask for all to acknowledge that BioWare's games are the awesomest games ever, and all other games are, as the kids on the street say, teh suk. I didn't ask you to begone from my sight, as unworthy of being in the presence of My Holiness.

I asked you to back up your attack.

Now, we were talking about BioWare having strong stories. You implicitly said that BioWare did not have strong stories, and then you slapped a smiley on there. Rather than demonstrate the ways in which slapping a smiley on an insulting comment doesn't work, and further expounding upon the ways in which Internet bullies attempt to assert dominance through such tactics, I'm asking for you to back it up.

Again, opting for truthiness, I'd say that there are wide range of things that you could justifiably attack BioWare on. I've talked about some of these areas, sometimes to justify and sometimes to agree as a player and as somebody trying to make those areas better.

But I don't believe that our stories are one of those areas. Barring the multiplayer-aimed Neverwinter Nights Original Campaign (which I hold is still a good story, just one that works better as a multiplayer game instead of the single-player epic most of us were expecting), our stories have always been top-notch.

I don't say "best" because it's all subjective past a certain point, and so many games were aiming for different things -- I liked PS:T and I liked KotOR, two stories with some surface similarities that were trying to tell radically different stories; PS:T is in introspective interactive novel, and KotOR is a heroic interactive movie. So I'm not claiming that our stories are better than everyone else's, and that there are no other good ones out there. If I've mistakenly said so, please quote me and I'll apologize and take it back. But strong stories ARE our selling point.

If you disagree, then feel free to back it up.

[PatrickWeekes]

And to answer other people -- I don't need BioWare to be loved and adored by all. I love my job, yeah, but there are things that could have been done better (a stronger single-player OC story in NWN, more sidequests and radically better combat in Jade Empire (we hopefully got the latter with the Special Edition), and any BioWare project in the early phases of development has meetings about how to improve upon past successes and resolve past mistakes.

When Mass Effect ships, I'll quite happily tell you what I wrote and what I didn't, and if you liked the bits I wrote, wooo, and if you didn't, no worries. Until then, I'm a dude with absolutely no video-game credits whatsoever. I've got the insider's view, which is cool, but that's it.

[Corwin]

Hey, Bioware revived the RPG scene with the original BG and it will always stand high in my estimation for that, if nothing else!! Do I think they are going the wrong way chasing after console titles? YES!! But that's just console hating me!! Do they write good solid stories with memorable characters? YES!! I wish KoToR a) was made into a movie (it would be better than many of the SW films), but b) didn't have stupid, annoying, console mini games which ruined the experience for me. With my slow reflexes, I had to get my son to complete them for me, or I would still be stuck unable to advance!!

[Lethal Weapon]

If KotOR was made into a movie it would be better than *all* starwars movies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIImgfERyr4).

[Acleacius]

Lethal Weapon
"If KotOR was made into a movie it would be better than *all* starwars movies."
Amen, brother! :biggrin:
Hell if it hadn't have been for Bioware reinventing the SW universe, the license would have stayed in the toilet and would have been flushed, long ago in galaxy far far away.

Moriendor if your referring to me, as the adoring fan, I have never seen any of PatrickWeeks 's work's (heh, im working on a tongue twister here). :p
I was simply encouraging him to strive to make the best NPCs, not cause I think it will have any real effect, it's just this is important part of RPGs for me personally.
I would encourage anyone working on something I am interested in, even You and especially a Dev that bothers to stop by and chat, cause he enjoys RPGs, too. :rolleyes:

Unless this your attempt to prove how rebellious you are by talking crap without backing it up, then I commend your efforts of hollowness in this instance. :cheer: :standingovation: :p

I mostly enjoy the NPCs you meet and interact with as in Bloodlines because to me it allowed in the most convincing and well done way, for us as PCs to communicate a feeling to an NPC instead of the other way around, though it did that incredibly well too, I referencing the Malk.

I would say making NPCs communicate feelings to us Bioware is one of the best and so is Troika, as has been said "best" is debatable.
Bioware has some of the funniest, thrilling, mysterious and dramatic moments in gaming history.
Here’s a list including the BlackIsle collection 2, though I am not sure why Planescape Torment is the only game omitted, which had some of the best party based NPCs in gaming history.
http://www.mobygames.com/browse/games/bioware-corporation

[aries100]

This is more a general comment...

Bioware in 10 years ago is different company (or should be) from the company of
today. Aside from the obvious that bioware has grown a bit since the first yearly years, both people and companies change in a decade. As for Bioware's business decisions, I would maybe havde other choices....but then again, I'm sure that the two doctors which heads bioware know what their doing.

The thing is that the gaming industry is just coming out of its infancy --- and so its
to think more stragically than before, making sure that certain game devs. survives.
And in order to do that, game devs. companies like bioware need to make games which appeals more to 'casual gamers' (whatever that is?? )

Bioware still, however, imo, features games which has focus on strong stories.
(from what I've heard and what I've played of say NWN1 and KOTOR1). Personally, I was afraid that both NWN1 and KOTOR1 would be more action type games, than say BG2? but it turned out thy weren't. (I hope someone will clear this up for me: Bioware did make the origninal BG1 games or was it interplay or black isle ??) .

As people and corporations/firms mature, our perspective in life often shifts to something else. I know that I'm not the same person as I am today compared to the person I was say 5 or even 10 years ago. So, imo, firms age and become maure mature.

As I stated above, I wouldn't have made some of the business decisions that bioware did, of them being the decision to invest in a mmorpg. I can, somehow understand the reason to do this. However, if you look back at previous mmorpgs
then it only seems that blizzard's world of warcraft has survived along with guildwars. Even the mighty Microsoft couldn't get into genre with its Everquest,
just like Norwegian Funcom couldn't get into the market with its Anarchy Online.
But let's see how Bioware fares with their mmorpg.

Going the handheld way, producing content for the PSP, the Nintendo DS etc.
could be a sound business decision, imo. It seems to me that bioware has used
a big software company or two to move away from the D&D games. A decision I
think is very important since it frees bioware do their own thing, creating the games, they want to make.

And the games bioware wants to make is, obviously, games like Mass Effect or Dragon Age. They might look shiny etc. but I'm sure that bioware will present a story underneath all that glossiness. I'm just worried that the FPS crowd (and by that I mean people playing Prey, Gears of War, and such games) might think that Mass Effect is an FPS game, since its main selling points up untill now has been
'shiny new graphics' and the conversation system, which mirror, or is similar, to
the speechcraft mini-game used in Oblivion. (this is just my personal opinion).

As for Dragon Age, well. I'll have to reserve judgment on this game untill further content is known. However, I find it something ??? that the PR for Dragon age just mentions exploration 'like in baldur's gate', but says nothing about the game being storydriven. I'm not asking that game info on the story be released, just a sort of confirmation that Dragon age will have a story. I really (and that's my personal opinion) don't care (much) about creating backstories for characters or the whole concept of going into a virtual world, being immersed in this world, living a
virtual life, doing what you would normally would do IRL, in this virtual world.

Mass Effect and Dragon Age as well are called roleplaying games for a reason:
You assume the role of someone else, which means you can choose to play as another character (or role) than you usually do in IRL. This means you can be a baddass character in the game or a saintly character, if you so choose. I really don't need to FEEL that I'm the main character or that it is me swinging the sword or pulling the trigger. And by me in this context I do mean the me I am in real life.

Roleplaying games to be a games in which you pick a character, then choose stats & abilities, then thesew stats & abilities decide whether or not you hit a person in combat or whether or not you're allowed to talk to this character or not. It really shouldn't, imo, be my personal skills with the mouse/keyboard which decide how much damage I'll do, (or if I hit at all). Maybe I'm just a bit concerned that my hand-eye co-ordination (which, btw, isn't that great) is being used to decide whether or not I'n being able to hit an NPC or a monster in the game.

I do, however, also understand the need for change, new things making its way into games as well as the use of the advances in the tech stuff being used in
new games. Varius gaming magazines tell us, the gaming audience, about this.

Unfortunately in live in a place in which the PC Gamer magazine isn't easy to get.
The only PC Gamer magazine, I have seen is the UK version of the magazine, and
that's only being sold at certain kiosks and the like. This means, that I,
unfortunately, didn't see the article in PC Gamer magazine about Dragon Age.
However, I've read near every piece of information I could find on DA on the net :)

PS: Patrick mentioned something about writing short stories about singing or talking swords ? Is it you then, who invented the :D annoying: D singing sword used in Planescape: Torment ??? It was a very funny touch indeed :D

[Moriendor]

I asked you to back up your attack.

OK. Will do that right now.

Now, we were talking about BioWare having strong stories.

No. We were actually talking about them having "world-class" stories. If you would have said "strong" or "good" or "solid" (terms you and others used in this thread), I probably would have skipped it routinely, thinking to myself 'Yeah, whatever floats your boat', and I would have moved on as usual without a comment but what you said was...

But if you pick up a BioWare game, you're going to get a world-class story. That's what we deliver.

... which sounded waaaay too pretentious in my opinion to just let it pass by :) .

Rather than demonstrate the ways in which slapping a smiley on an insulting comment doesn't work, and further expounding upon the ways in which Internet bullies attempt to assert dominance through such tactics, I'm asking for you to back it up.

Dude, seriously, you could have even taken my "in the future" comment as a personal compliment since you haven't even been involved with any of Bio's so-far shipped titles as you said yourself in another thread :) .

Anyway, I'll try to explain why I disagree with you about the "world-class" label. This might be a pretty fruitless effort since the way that people experience a story will always depend on a huge variety of individual, subjective influences but I'll try my best...

First of all, we'd need to establish what constitutes a story as being "world-class". That's obviously very difficult but in my personal opinion, the difference between a solid, good, or strong story and a "world-class" story is that the general, public consensus about the quality of the story should be unusually high if the story is truly "world-class".

For example, let's take a look at Star Wars (the original trilogy). That is -in my opinion- without a doubt a "world-class" story since I have barely ever talked to anyone who disagrees or have (in my online life since the mid 90s) read any negative comments about this particular story.
There does seem to be a very widely spread, general, public consensus that Star Wars is great enertainment and that it has a very engaging story from the beginning of Episode IV all the way to the end of Episode VI. That's why I would consider classic Star Wars as "world-class" as seems to be the case with the other -what- 80%+ or 90%+ of people who have watched the movies and who have thoroughly enjoyed the story that was being told.

The same can -again just in my humble opinion, of course- not be said about BioWare games. I just fail to see this overwhelming general consensus about the greatness of BioWare games.
I read a lot of German and English game sites and from what I have seen, I would guess that the rate of approval for BioWare games is maybe at around 50/50 or 40/60 or 60/40 (it doesn't really matter). However, it seems to me that there are a lot of people out there who are with me in believing that BioWare games are overrated.
That doesn't automatically mean that we "haters" think that BioWare games are "teh suck". It just means that we think that it is completely pretentious and exaggerated if people refer to these games/stories as "world-class" or "one of a kind" or "bestest evah" or whatever people like to call it.

===

Finally, to give a concrete example, I will try to explain why I thought that KotOR had only a solid story... that is minus the -admittedly- truly "world-class" surprise turn of events. That was well done and the game did in fact reach something that I would call "world-class" status for five minutes or so ;) .

The rest of the game was rather bland and boring in my opinion though.

Firstly, it started out way too slow. I think it would have been a better idea to turn some or all of Taris into a skippable tutorial. As a non-casual gamer I felt seriously under-challenged and was plain bored to tears after a short amount of time. A "world-class" game should ideally suck you right in from the beginning and never let you go again. KotOR did not manage to do that.

The game definitely got a little better after the trip to Dantooine and after obtaining Jedihood. However, one could tell from here on that the writers designed a lot of the quests with striking similarities to events and themes from the movies and even previous BioWare RPGs. Good. So they did their homework. I'm proud of them :D .

But maybe they should have concealed their efforts a little better. A lot of the quests (and especially their outcome) were way too predictable because you could literally draw direct parallels to scenes from -especially- Episodes IV to VI.
It is commendable that someone at BioWare tried to turn KotOR into a true Star Wars experience with genuine Star Wars themes but this approach also severely hampered creativity and originality in my opinion.

I mean even the "surprise" event was actually not that much of a surprise. From all the heavy borrowing from the movies, it was pretty obvious that something of the 'No - I am your father' type would eventually happen sooner or later.
The execution surprised me though. Gotta admit that. I expected someone on the council to be a traitor or something rather usual like that but that you were actually him ... that was pretty wicked :) .
Well, as I said above, this was the game's "world-class" moment IMHO but just not enough to make the whole game and story world-class.

OK... so now we've had our turning point in the story. I was personally expecting the game to come to an end rather soon at that point. I mean there's no way you could top this, right? So why would you shift down a few gears and bore the player with simple every day quests and chores after this huge event? That is the question I would have for BioWare because that is exactly what they did.
Jeez. So here I am... Mr. Badass of the galaxy himself and straight on track to save it... and then some stupid alien race on that StarForge planet (Rakata) gets in my way and demands that I first settle some petty little conflict that they have with their cockeyed neighbors? Kidding much? :biggrin:

By the way, I actually consider this as a major weakness of both KotORs. The problem is that you are always just an off-world visitor to the planets you, well, visit. You're just passing through. You have no attachment. It's not your own world that needs to be saved but always someone else's or someone else's totally-unrelated-to-you business that needs to be taken care of.
Might be just me but after a while and a couple of planets, I really stopped caring much about the issues of alien (race) X or faction Y. I just wanted to reach my goal, i.e. get a piece of the StarForge so I actually began to regard anyone stopping me dead in my tracks as a serious annoyance.
Which was certainly not the plan of the designers. They probably intended those (side) quests to be entertaining content but -at least for me- that failed miserably due to the lack of any real attachment to the NPCs you meet or to the worlds you visit.

Well, I could go on about how I thought that the relatively small areas (Xbox's fault I've heard) turned me off (as opposed to a larger world that you can roam freely as in other RPGs) and how the hub and spoke model that you were talking about earlier almost turned some parts into a rather boring "grind" (like when you had to finish tomb after tomb from the Valley of the Dark Lords) or how the interaction with party members felt more like a babysitter sim to me than anything else or how it became rather pointless to take anyone but Jedi characters with you on your planetary trips later in the game or how the artificially prolonged ending (i.e. the seemingly endless spawns of Sith dudes) got on my nerves or how I often felt like I was playing through some sort of let's-make-a-role-playing-game 101 course because of the awkward NPC interaction/dialogues (the only thing "missing" sometimes was that the "right" dialogue choices would get highlighted) or how it sucked that some dialogue always looped back on itself rather than (unimportant) dialogue options disappearing once you selected them... but I think I've written more than enough at this point to make it clear why I do not consider KotOR as a "world-class" game or a game with a "world-class" story.

Solid? Yes. Fine. I can agree with that as long as the scale is something like world class > excellent > great > strong > solid > mediocre > bad > crappy > POS > FUBAR or something similar to that. But KotOR just is not all the way up there (by far) in my opinion.


$ Just my 2c $

[Gorath]

I had a lot of fun with KotOR, apart from the slow start, and I really liked the writing. It´s light years ahead of mediocre games.

[Acleacius]

Your kind of on the borderline of cheating, since we were talking games and your throwing an example of a completely different style of entertainment story, movies which are not interactive.

I am not sure how well the original SW trilogy has held up in time to be coveted as "world class", though at the time it certainly had a huge impact.
It seemed to have been dying a slow death till BioWare picked up the franchise which does say something about BioWare's story abilities.
If it can pick your world class story in another entertainment medium off the floor and out of the toilet, how can it not also be considered world class?

Tarius was fun for me and yes some parts are seem slow but that is a weakness of the game genre and constraints of telling a solid world class story in games not the story itself, not only is the story interactive you have to spread it out over 30 hours interlaced with gameplay that must not fail to entertain either.

Of course selling out to m$ is painful (still) to any PC gamer who has been around for awhile and knows the superior format and all the things this represents.
Smaller levels, crappy graphics, crappy controls, crappy UI but after all is said and done it was the story and the gameplay that kept many playing and interested, selling 100 of thousands (millions?) of games.

I also realize that since m$ was willing to destroy the PC market to get in the console market out of selfishness and greed the only way for many dev houses was to go along where the cash was or die as we have sadly seen over last 6 years.

My biggest grip with BioWare is there forums, where paying customers are forced (they at least used to) to register giving more personal information than is necessary, just to be able to post even about technical issues about problems with the game.
This could easily piss off and alienate 20% 30% of their fan base (as it does me) and maybe one of the dumbest decisions in the history, though this has nothing to do with the employees, obviously.

BioWare
"I know, we can forced people to register on the forums that way we can protect against piracy to some degree"
"Yeah, great"
Fans
"but….What about our techsupport?"
BioWare
"All you have to do is give us your personal information, trust us to protect it and not turn it all over to JAsscroft.
Even if he says Al Qedia "Omg, they are infiltrating the US through computer games" and besides we won't even have to tell the customers we gave there info out"
Fans
"we just want techsupport, if you don't want us to post on your forums ok, but we need techsupport, damn it"
BioWare
"All you have to do is register, trust us"

I bet your saying to yourself (as you wiped the tears from your eyes), wow that is a tragic "world class" story but no it's RL. :)

[Gorath]

Guys, do you think you could get back on topic? Read the thread title if you´ve forgotten what it is. ;)

btw., I think the official "Bioware sucks" thread can be found on RPGCodex. :biggrin:

[aries100]

First off, I want to say that bioware does indeed require you to register --- to post new replies or new threads in their technical forums for games. However, you're still able to READ the tech forums and you can go their support site as well. On bioware's support site, there is FAQ which I will guess answers about 80% percent of all gamers questions. Most gamers questions seem to be about failed assertion bugs or global variables and the like...

I have been around the bioware forums since maybe 2000 or 2001 and I, iirc, even 6 or 7 years ago, you were also required to register - to post new posts and threads. This is a common thing ong forums - well, even this one ;) . (if you look for spoilers for your game, then you need to register the game's cd keys..)

More om topic:
Please remember that KOTOR was made with the license from Lucas Art, not M$ (as you call it - for some odd reason). It probably was Lucas Arts which made Bioware
focus the story on some elements from the movies rather than allowing bioware to
branch the story out in uncharted waters, and by that I mean, introducing totally new contents and such to the star wars universe. The star wars universe has been built for some 30 years now by Lucas Arts Inc. and looks the way it does and the stories told within this universe has to be within certain limits e.g. you can't suddenly have elves or orcs in a star wars game. (however, this could be kind of interesting ;) .... ).

Loking back 30 years, I didn't even hear of this star wars game way back in 1977.
In Europe where i lived at that time also, disco was just beginning to be the new 'fad', not star wars. It was actually when I was in the US as an exchange student I first saw these movies, and I was, immediately hooked. (as many before me). I agree that the star wars stories are sort of world class stories, and by that I mean stories which fit into universe. They also sort of tell the story of one man and his aspirations and the good he wishes to do and the evil he does and the story
continues...with the next generation. However, I seem to remember that even the first star wars movies did get a sort of a mixed bag of reviews, if they didn't get outright negative ones..... The popularity of the movies seem to have been increasing over time...

As a teacher, I read a bunch of stories and I also know how to analyze stories etc.
This is not said to be on a high horse, but just to say many fairy tales in the world has the same story as the star wars movies. The difference lies in how well the stories are told, and to me, the stories in the star wars movies are very well told.

If we compare this with say the stories told in Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, these stories
stand well up, imo, to the stories told in the star wars saga. And from what I've played of NWN1 and KOTOR1, the stories told also are very well-written and well-told. Having said that, you need to realize that placing a story in the D&D universe of forgotten realms or in the star wars universe do place some restrictions on how the story is told, and which stories you're able to tell.

As a side note, I'm really happy that the good ceo doctors of bioware enjoy playing gothic 3...which, imo, also a strong focus on a well-told and well-written story...

[Dhruin]

I'm a bit split on this. I think Mo overreacted but I can sort of see where he is coming from. I thought KotOR's story was overrated by both the playing community and the media and I don't think BG2's story was that exciting. In both cases the story leans heavily on a female sidekick (Imoen, Bastilla) and a previous history (Bhaalspawn, the whole Reven thing) rather than my character as I see him.

That said, this is obviously an issue for me rather than most other players. I thought the Reven thing was a bit lame but everyone else loved it. A developer friend once said to me "if everyone else loves something and you don't understand why...you probably just don't get it".

And the biggest "But..." is that while I may think BioWare's storiess could be improved (and hence, arguably aren't "world class"), I can't point to any other developer who is consistently better or even has the same focus on story and characters, which really makes the point a bit disengenuous and proves that BioWare really is world-class as the market currently stands.

...but I'd still hope they re-jig some of the character archetypes (it's time for Imoen/Aribeth/Bastilla to take a break) and make me the real focus of the story for an RPG.

[Acleacius]

aries100
"to post new posts and threads. This is a common thing ong forums "
Right, I have no problem registering a normal registration but BioWare's is (used to be) much more intensive and ask for more than normal forums.
In case your wondering yes I checked the Faq but didn’t answer my questions/problems.

"(if you look for spoilers for your game, then you need to register the game's cd keys..)"
Actually this is not true at least for me, I have always been able to look at spoilers and even do searches without registering, even during the original BG release, iirc though it's been 10 years so my memory is not sure. :)

"KOTOR was made with the license from Lucas Art, not M$ (as you call it - for some odd reason). It probably was Lucas Arts which made Bioware"
Right, of course they had to deal with LA but it was licensed to be a "xbox only" release title, i.e. when the first xbox console shipped.

This puts m$ in charge of proving tools, engine training and ship dates which was an 18 month dev title iirc, very short due to xbox debut.
As I recall (others have mentioned it differently) the time was so short Bioware was running out of time and LA was very helpful stepping in to do the movies.

I think you are correct I recall critics did not like SW, here in the US which if you go back and watch the original now it makes me cringe, it’s almost like watching a parody movie about SW, like Space Balls. :p

Dhruin
"I can't point to any other developer who is consistently better or even has the same focus on story and characters"
Yes well said and you know I don't think anyone has been trying to imply BioWare has written a perfect story.
Afaik the fact we are getting this some of the best stories and best games, especially when compared to what other games are offering, is remarkable.

It seems like the dilemma is based in the individual and the length, as most whom mention dragging or losing interest don't seem comfortable have a story play out over thirty hours, unless maybe the are constantly reading as in PT.

At 30 hours, hell that is Twice as long as the Star Wars movie series and personally I like the length and part of RPGs (to me) is the grind whether doing quest or exploring new areas killing mobs. ;)

BioWare are giving us some of the best stories, in the best games, not to mention replay values are Not even factored in the 30 hours.

Hey let me ask you guys something, (I am reaching here) but do you think maybe you get board or the game dragging is possibly due to maybe you being tired at the end of the day from working/school/whatever playing games till your ready to go to bed?
I mean most people's brains really start slowing down after a long day before going to bed, then if you throw in a beer, wine or martini. ;)
Well not only do some of my friends drink till they are slurring, if they ever told me some story was boring while they were slurring/sloppy drunk, id tell them to stfu. :p

Now if you guys play jacked up on caffeine, well that's a different story. :)

[PatrickWeekes]

Thanks for replying, Mor. I appreciate the feedback, and that pretty clearly illustrates the differences in our viewpoints.

Our definitions of "world-class" are clearly different. My definition of a world-class story in the context of a video game is "ranking as one of the best", which is also the definition of "world-class" that Dictionary.com uses. I believe that BioWare is in World Class as far as story goes -- if we put out a game, it's going to have a story comparable in quality to the best story-driven games out there. Not always at the top, but always in the running.

If BioWare is not one of the top five companies as far as story-driven games on the market at any given time by your standards, then we have different standards, and the ranking sites do not agree with yours.

Regarding KotOR:

1) Comparing a movie plot to a video-game plot is difficult, if not futile. The movie can do things that an interactive video game cannot, and vice versa. You might have a better comparison with a more linear game (that chooses your dialogue for you) like "Prince of Persia" (which had a story I quite enjoyed), but even still, it's a different medium.

2) I completely agree on the Rakata world. As, based on a conversation I had with a coworker yesterday before reading this thread, do other people.

Regarding Baldur's Gate: BioWare made it. :)

Regarding FPS people thinking Mass Effect is going to be a shooter: Good. :) They can play and blow stuff up and "A" their way through the conversations, and the rest of us can enjoy a good solid story.

[Lethal Weapon]

We may still compare a movie to a video-game by means of an abstraction: If that video-game were made to a movie, then how good a movie would it make?

When I posted that KotOR would make a better movie than all starwars films I was mainly expressing my distaste for all starwars movies. I think that the comments 'bland and boring' and 'something that I would call "world-class" status for five minutes or so' best apply to them, the original trilogy included.

If a movie were made based on KotOR's story, it might not win an Oscar prize, but it would definitely be first class story-wise. In fact I think that one of the game's failures was that it didn't elaborate on the story as much as needed. Also I am willing to understand that the representation of an ancient civ like the Rakata by a tiny settlement was due to various limitations; I used my imagination there.

On a side note, to my mind, Revan is definitely female and going dark the very last moment, thus Bastilla never played that an important role in my games. I must congratulate Bio though since it took me 4 playthroughs to romance Carth -let alone kill him- but that might be because I am myself male and normally choose to play male avatars. Some insights into female psychology gained also. :smug: