Your top 3D RPG's

[jakebaker13]

With me being new to PC gaming and my copy of Gothic Universe arriving shortly I got to thinking: "What are all the great 3D RPG's I have missed being a console player?" I have been searching reviews on Eurogamer, Gamespot, and IGN but I to be honest I am extremely suspect of their scores. It seems if a quest-giver doesn't have a glowing question mark over his/her head then that is grounds to knock of a full point.

Anyways to get to the point: To maybe give me a better idea of what I may have missed out on I was curious what everybody's favorite 3D RPG's were.

Forgive me if this has been a thread on this forum in the past, but I searched back quite a few pages and found nothing that resembled it so sorry If I may have missed something.

[Pladio]

Knights of the Old Republic I and II were good.
Gothic I and II
Morrowind was quite good albeit I never finished it.

I'm not sure if I played any other 3d rpgs ...

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Are there 2D RPGs anyway ?

[blatantninja]

Well 3-D isometic is technically 2-D and we see some of those still coming out.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Okay, my personal definition of 2D is different (different definitions per genre ?), because 2D is what I believe for example Aztaka is, or Money Island 1-2.

My personaly definition of 2D comes from adventure games, that's why.

[wolfing]

KotoR and Oblivion

[jakebaker13]

Yes I should have been more clear. I meant more "modern" games like Gothic and Morrowind.

[blatantninja]

Okay, my personal definition of 2D is different (different definitions per genre ?), because 2D is what I believe for example Aztaka is, or Money Island 1-2.

My personaly definition of 2D comes from adventure games, that's why.

Gotcha. Would you consider really old school RPGs (like the old Ultimas or Gold Box games) to be 2-D? (Outside the dungeons in Ultima).

[DArtagnan]

Gothic
Risen
Fallout 3 (Modded!)
Dragon Age
KotOR
Vampire: Bloodlines
Neverwinter Nights 1+2 (Mods and Expansions!)

You can't trust review sites, period. Eurogamer is probably THE worst of the bunch, because I frankly don't think they understand anything.

Gamespot/IGN are infested with corruption, but they have a little knowledge about the history of gaming - so you can pick up some valuable info, as long as you ignore the inflated scores for US AAA titles, and the low scores for EU sub-AAA titles.

[Jaz]

Gothic 1 and 2, Risen (!!! Yes!!!), Morrowind/w expansions... Deus Ex... can't think of others right now. But I'm sure there are :).

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Gotcha. Would you consider really old school RPGs (like the old Ultimas or Gold Box games) to be 2-D? (Outside the dungeons in Ultima).

Okay, I can't say. I usually say "isometric perspective RPGs" to them. ;)

[Maylander]

2D means two dimensions (X and Y). If there is a Z axis, it's 3D. Games like Neverwinter Nights are not actually 3D - they're "2,5D" which means they fake the 3rd axis.

In my opinion, Gothic 1 and 2 are the best 3D RPGs, hands down.

[jakebaker13]

Gothic
Risen
Fallout 3 (Modded!)
Dragon Age
KotOR
Vampire: Bloodlines
Neverwinter Nights 1+2 (Mods and Expansions!)

You can't trust review sites, period. Eurogamer is probably THE worst of the bunch, because I frankly don't think they understand anything.

Gamespot/IGN are infested with corruption, but they have a little knowledge about the history of gaming - so you can pick up some valuable info, as long as you ignore the inflated scores for US AAA titles, and the low scores for EU sub-AAA titles.

I was trying to find Vampire: Bloodlines yesterday but I had no luck. I thought that looked pretty good.

And yeah, The review sites I typically watch are terrible. If it isn't a terrorist shooter there is no hope of the score reaching above a 7.

[DArtagnan]

2D means two dimensions (X and Y). If there is a Z axis, it's 3D. Games like Neverwinter Nights are not actually 3D - they're "2,5D" which means the engine fakes the 3rd axis.

In my opinion, Gothic 1 and 2 are the best 3D RPGs, hands down.

Ehm, no, the Neverwinter Nights engine doesn't "fake" the 3D - they simply don't have a camera placed at the specified angle. Actually, Hordes of the Underdark introduced that particular feature, IIRC - and Neverwinter Nights 2 certainly had it.

It's as much a 3D game as Gothic or Risen, technically.

Either we talk about 3D graphics, or we talk about a specific perspective.

Then we could go on about it being first person or not, or free roaming or not.

In fact, we could spend all day trying to define precisely what game is called what, or we could simply come up with great games and let the OP decide if it's close enough to what he has in mind.

[DArtagnan]

I was trying to find Vampire: Bloodlines yesterday but I had no luck. I thought that looked pretty good.

It's a pretty fantastic game, but I have no idea where you can get it. Gog.com maybe?

Just make sure you use the latest patch, and possibly the ever popular WESP patch - which I personally used upon my first and only playthrough about a year ago.

[JDR13]

I'm pretty sure V:TMB isn't too hard to find, as long as you're ok with the digital download version. A retail box version is nearly impossible to find now.

[jakebaker13]

Total brain fart on my end. I didn't even think about a digital download.

[DeepO]

in order of appearance (and with benevolent approach to genre boundaries):

System Shock 2
Deus Ex
Wizardry 8
Gothic
Morrowind (modded)
Gothic II: Night of the Raven
Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines
Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer
The Witcher

All of these I already consider to be "3D" classics.

From the most recent ones, Risen, Dragon Age, Fallout: New Vegas.

[Maylander]

Ehm, no, the Neverwinter Nights engine doesn't "fake" the 3D - they simply don't have a camera placed at the specified angle. Actually, Hordes of the Underdark introduced that particular feature, IIRC - and Neverwinter Nights 2 certainly had it.

It's as much a 3D game as Gothic or Risen, technically.

Either we talk about 3D graphics, or we talk about a specific perspective.

Then we could go on about it being first person or not, or free roaming or not.

In fact, we could spend all day trying to define precisely what game is called what, or we could simply come up with great games and let the OP decide if it's close enough to what he has in mind.

I was simply trying to explain the terms as there seemed to be some confusion regarding whether 2D or 3D had anything to do with genre.

In any case, I honestly thought everything in the Aurora Engine (NWN, The Witcher, etc) was "glued to the floor" because it's simply not possible to move it along the Z-axis as there is no physical Z-axis. For example jumping is not possible, as an object above another object can't relate to the object beneath it.

I might be mistaken, however. Though, it does seem like an odd limitation to enforce if there is support for full 3D.

[DArtagnan]

I was simply trying to explain the terms as there seemed to be some confusion regarding whether 2D or 3D had anything to do with genre.

In any case, I honestly thought everything in the Aurora Engine (NWN, The Witcher, etc) was "glued to the floor" because it's simply not possible to move it along the Z-axis as there is no physical Z-axis. For example jumping is not possible, as an object above another object can't relate to the object beneath it.

I might be mistaken, however. Though, it does seem like an odd limitation to enforce if there is support for full 3D.

The jumping thing was hard to implement based on the rigid tile-based engine, and the rules aspect - but modders managed to do so. Much like in Dragon Age, Mass Effect, and games like them from Bio - that are not free form. They're quite into linear and tightly designed levels - where players are not free to move as they wish.

So, while the engine is rigid and as such quite inflexible - it is 100% 3D in technical terms. But that's visually, and not in terms of movement. You can't fly and there are no calculations to support "vertical movement".

Allowing players to "leave the ground" is a major pain for a specific kind of game, because you then need to worry about physics (jumping from higher ground, for instance - and the animation work is quite immense if it's to look good) and scenarios where you can't control the player for cutscenes and a whole slew of other issues.

The same concerns apply in Gothic, where "climbing" is not really possible and jumping is somewhat rigid looking. It's not an easy thing to accomplish - but free form games SHOULD have it be possible. Even Fallout 3 and Oblivion can't pull it off with a decent look, despite their zillions of dollars

[Pladio]

Might and Magic VI and VII spring to mind too by the way. Graphics are a bit dated, but the universe is really good with a good ruleset in my opinion.

[Maylander]

So basically there is a form of Z-axis, but not a traditional one where movement in 3D space is possible for an object (not just talking about the character).

I'm not even sure what the term is (if there is one at all). The closest I can think of would be "pseudo 3D". 2,5D is a more commonly used term that doesn't describe the Aurora engine and it's capabilities/limitations.

For reference:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=126287&sid=4ffd5bbc5a8ae25afa6f4dfec72368ce

Edit: It seems pseudo 3D is already taken! It's basically 2,5D the way I see it..

[DeepO]

Forgot to include Arx Fatalis.
Great atmosphere and best crypts ever.

[DArtagnan]

So basically there is a form of Z-axis, but not a traditional one where movement in 3D space is possible for an object (not just talking about the character).

I'm not even sure what the term is (if there is one at all). The closest I can think of would be "pseudo 3D". 2,5D is a more commonly used term that doesn't describe the Aurora engine and it's capabilities/limitations.

For reference:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=126287&sid=4ffd5bbc5a8ae25afa6f4dfec72368ce

Edit: It seems pseudo 3D is already taken! It's basically 2,5D the way I see it..

Well, I'm not too concerned with what to call it.

There are hills in the game, and you can go "up" through the Z-axis - if that's what you mean.

I'm talking about the rendering engine - as in how the graphics are built. If we're talking about movement or free roaming - then it doesn't have full 3D movement, but then very few games do. Gothic doesn't, for instance - as you can only "jump" and not fly or similar.

[Pladio]

Flying is magic, not reality … So I wouldn't discount Gothic as 3D. It has a fully fledged 3D coordinate system and graphical system anyway.

And to be completely honest it does allow you limited flying options with the marvin command.

[DeepO]

And you can transform into bloodfly!

[DArtagnan]

Flying is magic, not reality … So I wouldn't discount Gothic as 3D. It has a fully fledged 3D coordinate system and graphical system anyway.

And to be completely honest it does allow you limited flying options with the marvin command.

You can't dive either.

But, there's nothing in either engine to prevent freeform movement. It's a question of level design, animation, and rules implementation.

Gothic wouldn't work with flying very well - and neither would Neverwinter Nights.

But there's absolutely nothing "fake" about the 3D in terms of the engine. The tile-based approach was a design choice to facilitate easy level building, and was largely ruined in the sequel.

There are hills and upwards movement in NWN.

[DArtagnan]

Bioware did the same thing with the Unreal engine, by the way. That's just how they design levels. Linear and rigid, just like in Mass Effect - where you can't even jump either.

[DeepO]

You can't dive either.
What? This is an outrage! Of course you can dive in Gothics 1&2.
It´s even required, at least in one part of G1´s main quest.

[DArtagnan]

What? This is an outrage! Of course you can dive in Gothics 1&2.
It´s even required, at least in one part of G1´s main quest.

You can?

I must have forgotten ;)

You certainly can't in G3, though, and I'm pretty sure you'd consider that "3D".

But this is becoming stupid.

If we're talking about a specific kind of vertical movement - then I agree Gothic is more free form - but neither game is fully 3D in that case - and VERY few games are like that.

I'm talking about the visuals, based on vector graphics - which is what I mean by 3D - and there's nothing "fake" about the 3D ;)

Well, except that it's actually 2D giving the illusion of 3D ;)

[DeepO]

Yeah, well, it wasn´t exactly gameplay defining feature.
I was certainly disappointed they haven´t included neither diving nor even swimming in Risen, especially considering the settings. Swimming too far could be always solved by "you´ve been eaten by whatever really, really big" event.
They better reintroduce it in Risen 2, or else.

[DArtagnan]

I prefer freeform RPGs myself, by a wide margin ;)

But that doesn't make NWN any less 3D than The Witcher, Dragon Age, Mass Effect OR Gothic - regardless of whether you can jump/swim!!!

[DeepO]

!!!
Agreed.

Speaking of "3D movements", absence of vertical activities in party based games doesn´t bother me at all (though flying in Might and Magics was fun and I certainly wouldn´t mind a party based cRPG attempting to implement vertical axis as a legitimate part of player´s tactical arsenal), but in action-y/single char games vertical and other movement limitations often bother me, since it usually means less interesting level design going hand in hand with limiting player´s creativity.

After all the antics Geralt did in The Witcher´s intro, finding out that I can´t do anything of that in game, not even jump, was a solid disappointment for me.
I´ve noticed that for The Witcher 2 they´ve implemented climbing, but it´s via hot spots, thus still weaksauce in regards to freedom of movement, but it might indicate more elaborate level design.

Ultima Underworld ftw.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Either we talk about 3D graphics, or we talk about a specific perspective.

Good point.

[Jaz]

Forgot to include Arx Fatalis.
Great atmosphere and best crypts ever.Oh yes, a fun game with great ambience.

[Thrasher]

I concur on not paying too much attention to the reviews sites. Most are bought and paid for and/or grossly misinformed. Pay more attention to the negative reviews and look for the things you don't prefer, rather than believing hype. Take all of them with a grain of salt.

Here's my recommendations:

Deus Ex
- for futuristic world design and atmosphere, intrigue, story, quests, character build options, and gameplay options

Gothic II
- for fantastic living dynamic world design, factions, quests, and great action-style combat

Morrowind
- my favorite world design and atmosphere, great story with lots of possibilities for interpretation, my favorite free roamer for exploration

System Shock 2
- for fantastic tense survival horror atmosphere on a spaceship, unusual character build options, and gameplay options

Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines
- one of the best spoken and written, factions, unusual vampire gameplay elements, nice and unique character build systems, experience granted for progressing through quests rather than for kills encourages diplomatic and stealth solutions

Neverwinter Nights 1: Shadows of Undrentide + Hordes of the Underdark
- best adventures from the user community, DnD ruleset allows for a huge variety of character builds, massive replayability

Wizardry 8
- my favorite character build and development system, create and control your own party, phase-based combat, note: you REALLY have to like combat, there's tons of it and each battle can take a while, rather funny

Dragon Age: Origins
- great characters, dialog, and bonding, full party under your control, also funny

Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer
- fantastic story, and great characters

[JDR13]

An example of a 2.5D game would be Duke Nukem 3D (ironically named) because it used a sprite based engine that simulates a 3D environment. Quake was the first mainstream 3D game that I can recall.

[enodenroH]

Baldur's Gate II
Gothic II + NOTR Expansion
Arx Fatalis

[Zloth]

And, just to throw another 3D out there, we've now got Stereoscopic 3D (http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/6735/falloid.jpg). Muuhahahahaaa!

But anyway…

Reviews are fine and rarely steer me wrong. But then, I read the things, I don't just look at the score. I know what I like and what I don't like about games. If reviews are positive but mention things I don't like to see (e.g. checkpoint save systems) then I'll likely stay away. Things I see as positives sometimes get negative comments, too (e.g. Gametrailers saying Dragon Age: Origins was too long). As long as they get the basic facts in there, I'm good to go.

RPGs I've liked a lot in recent years:
Oblivion
The Witcher
The Last Remnant (a JRPG with a very different combat system - most folks didn't like it much but I dumped a good 200 hours into this game)
Dragon Age: Origins
Fallout 3
Risen
Mass Effect 1 & 2

I liked the Shivering Islands expansion for Oblivion but I wouldn't bother with the DLC for any of the above.

[JDR13]

I wouldn't bother with the DLC for any of the above.

Not even for Fallout 3?

Also, the 'Lair of the Shadow Broker' DLC for ME2 is widely regarded as being excellent.

[DArtagnan]

And, just to throw another 3D out there, we've now got Stereoscopic 3D (http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/6735/falloid.jpg). Muuhahahahaaa!

But anyway…

Reviews are fine and rarely steer me wrong. But then, I read the things, I don't just look at the score. I know what I like and what I don't like about games. If reviews are positive but mention things I don't like to see (e.g. checkpoint save systems) then I'll likely stay away. Things I see as positives sometimes get negative comments, too (e.g. Gametrailers saying Dragon Age: Origins was too long). As long as they get the basic facts in there, I'm good to go.

RPGs I've liked a lot in recent years:
Oblivion
The Witcher
The Last Remnant (a JRPG with a very different combat system - most folks didn't like it much but I dumped a good 200 hours into this game)
Dragon Age: Origins
Fallout 3
Risen
Mass Effect 1 & 2

I liked the Shivering Islands expansion for Oblivion but I wouldn't bother with the DLC for any of the above.

I think both Dragon Age and Fallout 3 have DLC worth checking out, especially if they can be bought cheap.

But…. to each his own.

[jakebaker13]

So many games to try out! This is great.

[Maylander]

Isn't there a Dragon Age super pack available these days? With Awakening + all DLCs? If such a thing exists, it contains tons of high quality gaming.

[DArtagnan]

Yeah, I think they just released a pack like that - or will soon, anyway.

[Dwagginz]

Total brain fart on my end. I didn't even think about a digital download.
Only places I've seen it are Direct2Drive and Steam. For what it is, it's not cheap.

Isn't there a Dragon Age super pack available these days? With Awakening + all DLCs? If such a thing exists, it contains tons of high quality gaming.
Yes. EA released Dragon Age: Origins - Ultimate Edition a few weeks ago.

[Thrasher]

So many games to try out! This is great.

It's a dual-edged sword, especially for those of us who are obsessive completists. :p :)

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Yes. EA released Dragon Age: Origins - Ultimate Edition a few weeks ago.

December 16 here, says Amazon Germany.

[Nerevarine]

Only places I've seen it are Direct2Drive and Steam. For what it is, it's not cheap.

VTM:B can be bought on Steam for $20, which is a pretty reasonable price due to the quality of the experience once it's been completely patched up. The price should probably be even lower because the game is 6 years old now, but I'd still recommend getting it for $20.

[Dwagginz]

December 16 here, says Amazon Germany.
It's already out in the UK and US.

[Zloth]

Ooops, yeah, I forgot about Broken Steel for FO3. :blush:

[Maylander]

In that case, buying the Ultimate Edition of Dragon Age is definitely something I can recommend.

[Dez]

Witcher
Arx Fatalis
Gothic 1 & Gothic 2 gold
Deus ex 1
Dragon Age + awakening expansion
NWN 2 & the expansion (MOTB)
Morrowind and the expansions (+mods)
Fallout 3 (modded)
Kotor 1, Kotor 2
Vampire bloodlines
Risen

[skavenhorde]

And, just to throw another 3D out there, we've now got Stereoscopic 3D (http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/6735/falloid.jpg). Muuhahahahaaa!

Actually that's what I thought he meant at first because I do have that and some RPGs are better than others when using stereoscopic 3D.

BTW, you may look ridiculous with those things on, but it is so worth it :) Morrowind never looked more alive. There are drawbacks of course, but seeing that world in 3D made up for any annoyances I encountered.

[Thaurin]

BTW, you may look ridiculous with those things on, but it is so worth it :) Morrowind never looked more alive. There are drawbacks of course, but seeing that world in 3D made up for any annoyances I encountered.

You can actually do that? I was so interested in this since Magic Carpet had a stereoscopic mode. :) How does that work, do you need a special videocard/monitor/TV? I know PS3 was coming out with an update to add support for it, but can you do this with every game on the PC?

[BobKraus]

Don't forget Dungeon Lords a genuine 3-D RPG with action combat. One of my favorites, I played it thru 6 times! However you MUST get the 1.4 edition as the original was full of bugs and quite unfinished. The 1.4 is still not completely finished (and never will be) but if you can overlook the limitations it can be great fun! Also best to read some game guides to avoid getting into situations from which you can't recover, such as leaving some dungeons early and you can't get back in and can't finish the game. (of course always save BEFORE entering a dungeon, etc.)

[Zloth]

You can actually do that? I was so interested in this since Magic Carpet had a stereoscopic mode. :) How does that work, do you need a special videocard/monitor/TV? I know PS3 was coming out with an update to add support for it, but can you do this with every game on the PC?
I started a topic over yonder (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11021)... I'll answer there.

[skavenhorde]

@Thaurin

Go to Zloth's thread it answers all of your questions, but if you have the money and don't mind wearing silly glasses then pick this up as soon as you can. Fallout 3, Morrowind, Oblivion, Stalker, The Witcher and others never looked so good :)

One word of warning, it isn't perfect. Some games are better than others. Like in Morrowing I literally felt like I could pick up items in the game in front of my screen, but in others there were a lot of little annoyances like doublevision from things that weren't in the middle of the screen. I adjusted the 3D level and that helped a lot. It was still in 3D, but not as good as some other games.

Edit: I almost forgot to mention GTA 4 and the expansions. You have to play those games in 3D. You'll never want to play them again without the glasses :)

[purpleblob]

late contribution... ;p

I'd recommend Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 (space pew pew rpg)

Shame you asked for 3D rpgs.. you'd get so much more choice if you include 2D rpgs like Baldur's Gate II.... ;)

[Zloth]

Silly glasses? Since when do dwee… {ahem} computer game enthusiasts worry about how they look? As long as our characters look good, we're fine, right? ;)

Oh, and Jakebaker? Dragon Age 2, The Witcher 2, Two Worlds 2, and Deus Ex 3 will all be releasing in the next few months, so you are on the clock! :whip:

[Thaurin]

Like in Morrowing I literally felt like I could pick up items in the game in front of my screen

I found the other thread, so I'll be brief here. Hope Oblivion's as good, because I'm not about to replay Morrowind anytime soon. But this sounds awesome, I love such technology. My PC and TV is old, though, and I usually play on Xbox these days. But it's time to replace the 6-year-old PC, anyway. :)

[Madigan]

For whatever reason, i always get bored easily with A-release games. my list as follows.

1. Gothic I&II
2. Risen
3. Divinity II ED
4. Venetica
5. Everything else

Worst ever: Mist Mare