The Top 7... [game] series run into the ground

[txa1265]

As reported in this GamesRadar article (http://www.gamesradar.com/us/psp/game/news/article.jsp?articleId=20070123142252250050):

A game is made, and it turns out to be good. The game comes out, becomes popular... and then becomes a series. Usually, we have nothing bad to say about that. Until, inevitably, things start to slide. The creator that made the game what it was bails. Or it fizzles in the transition from one console to another. Maybe the staff just forgot what made it great. Whatever the problem, we've selected seven of the biggest offenders, for your displeasure.

These are pretty much console games except for #7, Tomb Raider ... which was a PC game that has become a console-centric game also released on PC. I agree hat 'Legend' is pretty good ... but they are still living on borrowed time ...

[magerette]

Great concept--have a feeling if they were doing pc rpg series we'd see the transition from Might and Magic I-VII turning into VIII, IX and gone.:)

[dteowner]

M&M would certainly be the poster child in the PC realm. Just to stir the pot a bit, I'd include the Civilization series on my list.

[txa1265]

Contract JACK could warrant putting NOLF on the list as well ...

[JDR13]

[QUOTE=txa1265;17049
These are pretty much console games except for #7, Tomb Raider ... which was a PC game that has become a console-centric game also released on PC. I agree hat 'Legend' is pretty good ... but they are still living on borrowed time ...[/QUOTE]

I think you might be mistaken there. I remember Tomb Raider starting out on the original Playstation and later being ported to the PC. I'm pretty sure Tomb Raiders 1, 2, and 3 were all released for the PS1 before the PC versions were made. Later on in the series they eventually started releasing the console and PC versions of the TR games at the same time.

Have you guys heard about Tomb Raider Anniversary? It's a remake of the original Tomb Raider using an updated version of the TR Legend graphics engine.
http://www.tombraiderchronicles.com/tombraideranniversary/info.html

[dteowner]

Ohh, thought of another one-- MOO.

[magerette]

yes-the grisly collection of graphically rendered spreadsheets which was know as MOO3 definitely killed that one.

[txa1265]

I think you might be mistaken there. I remember Tomb Raider starting out on the original Playstation and later being ported to the PC.
Well, I've never been a big fan of the series, seemed to cater to the 'hehe ... teh b00beez' crowd ...

But checking on it, it seems that it was released for PS, Saturn & PC all at once.

Have you guys heard about Tomb Raider Anniversary? It's a remake of the original Tomb Raider using an updated version of the TR Legend graphics engine.
http://www.tombraiderchronicles.com/tombraideranniversary/info.html

Yeah - I have that on my '2007 watch list' for PSP.

[JDR13]

I really enjoyed the original Tomb Raider, but I thought all the rest were ho-hum.

I'll definitely check out Anniversary when it comes out for the PC. I hope it includes the extra levels from Tomb Raider Gold.

[xSamhainx]

I think Tomb Raider has been revitalized, starting with Legend. The remaking of the original game is something I'm really looking forward to. So while yes, I agree that TR was run into the ground and at one point was better left for dead, this particular story is looking like it's going to have a happy ending after all.

Personally, one of my favorite game personalities is Lara.

I even like the movies, really ='.'=

[Maylander]

There is no Might & Magic 9, it's all a lie!

[Corwin]

Perhaps, but it was an expensive one!!

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Interviewer of a gaming magazine : "How does it feel to have a lie standing in your shelf ?"

[JemyM]

There are more examples than theese. Might and Magic as someone mentioned, but also Ultima that burned out with Ultima 9: Ascension.

Noone nailed their coffin better than the adventuregame makers though.

Simon the Sorcerer 3d. Now can that one be topped? The first two was loved for their whacky british humor and parody of fantasyworlds everywhere. The third could probably be given a price for the ugliest game ever made. Even if you look past that it's buggy, broken and even trying to play the game is painful.

King's Quest VIII. The King's Quest series was widely loved all over the world, until Sierra decided that adventuregames do not sell anymore. The frenchise did not survive this action 3d game.

Larry V... We had an excellent ending in Larry III and while Larry V at least keep true to the story, it was the start of the complete decline of the series, each one moving further and further away from the first games.

Gabriel Knight III. Granted, one of the best stories ever made in a computer game, but the jump to 3d graphics did not only produce one of the ugliest 3d games ever made (although not as bad as Simon 3d), it also convinced both Sierra and their public that the age of Sierra adventuregaming was over.

Police Quest IV. Cashing in on the name established with Sonny Bonds as the main character, PQ4 did not only forgot the earlier games, it was also the only of Sierra's main series to go from beautiful handdrawn graphics to cheap photographed images. It was safe to say that the era of Police Quest was over.

I have to say though, like mentioned, that Legends really made Tomb Raider great.

[JemyM]

A few close cases.

Myst V. Honorable mention. Even if Myst V officially ended the series, most fans agreed it was a complete letdown compared to Myst IV that remains as one of the most beautiful adventuregames ever made. Not only the jump from prerendered environments into an aging polygon engine, but also a game where the most known NPC is barely seen in the entire game.

Wonder Boy topped the series with Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap, also known as Monsterland II. The platform roleplayinggame formula started with Wonder Boy II: Monsterland but Wonder Boy III made it perfect. The rest of the frenchise is generally unknown though. There was an actionplatform game also called Wonder Boy III that nobody remembers. Wonder Boy IV and V actually exist but they could just never beat Dragon's Trap in all it's perfect glory.

Splinter Cell and Raven Shield appears to go into the same direction: Ubisoft.
While both frenchises was very strong on PC, Ubisoft do not believe in PC gaming anymore.
The broken mess of a console port that Splinter Cell 4 was can be forgiven if they make a better attempt with SC5.
However, the change of genré in Raven Shield from Tactical Shooter to a Shooter Shooter was enough to make fans feel that thoose games will never be the same again. Now the old fans will probably move over to S.W.A.T.

Alone in the Dark V is not yet released, and might still end up great. However, AITD5 finally skips the adventuregenré and fully convert into an actiongame.

UFO: Enemy Unknown is a frenchise that decided that what made the original good was not good enough. Since then we have had shooters, space sims and then some weak attempts to go back again but none have sucessfully hit the spot that made the original a classic.

[JemyM]

Widely loved game, not so good sequel/expansion.

Alien vs Predator 2: Primal Hunt
Most people barely knew there was an expansion to AVP2 and if they loved the original they can keep doing it and forget about this one. "Better replay the original instead" sums up most reviews.

Dungeon Siege 2: Broken World
While Dungeon Siege 2 was widely praised even among thoose who hated Dungeon Siege, Broken World felt like a thin fan-made mod rather than an attempt to continue what made DS2 great. Gone was the talking companions with their own subquests, the deep background story, and left was a completely linear bash that at least gave us a nice ending.

Beyond Divinity
What is it that makes people love the original but hate the sequel? Well, there's a whole thread for that so I wont go into it again.

Pools of Radiance II
Trying to continue a classic is a risky subject. Trying to do it with a broken team that was changed 3 times during the production as well as changing rulesystem from AD&D to D&D3.5 mid-run, was enough to create one of the most broken games ever known.

Deus Ex 2 was decent, despite being dumbed down to fit consolegamers, but the PC conversion was simply terrible. It ran like crap even on the latest PC's at the time. Despite fans work with the game, it remains as a game only recommended to them who loved the original.

KOTOR 2 was great up to the last few areas when Obsidian ran out of time. With a story just as good as the original it was just a shame we never got to see the ending.

[Moriendor]

Raven Shield appears to go into the same direction: Ubisoft.
While both frenchises was very strong on PC, Ubisoft do not believe in PC gaming anymore.
The broken mess of a console port that Splinter Cell 4 was can be forgiven if they make a better attempt with SC5.
However, the change of genré in Raven Shield from Tactical Shooter to a Shooter Shooter was enough to make fans feel that thoose games will never be the same again. Now the old fans will probably move over to S.W.A.T.

Objection, your honor :) . I thought that Raven Shield was still a "true" Rainbow Six game. They didn't change too much from Rogue Spear except that you could now open doors incrementally by scrolling the mouse wheel. But I never cared about the planning mode (always chose the default plan) so if that's where they made dramatic changes then I wouldn't know.
The action gameplay part, however, was not seriously screwed with until Rainbow Six: Lockdown. It was Lockdown that "killed" the franchise IMHO. And from all I've heard it's only gotten worse with Vegas (haven't played the game yet). A refreshing health bar that refreshes faster the more accurate you shoot and kill? In a Rainbow Six game? Hello? Anyone at home at UbiSoft? Jeez...

[JemyM]

Objection, your honor :) . I thought that Raven Shield was still a "true" Rainbow Six game. They didn't change too much from Rogue Spear except that you could now open doors incrementally by scrolling the mouse wheel. But I never cared about the planning mode (always chose the default plan) so if that's where they made dramatic changes then I wouldn't know.
The action gameplay part, however, was not seriously screwed with until Rainbow Six: Lockdown. It was Lockdown that "killed" the franchise IMHO. And from all I've heard it's only gotten worse with Vegas (haven't played the game yet). A refreshing health bar that refreshes faster the more accurate you shoot and kill? In a Rainbow Six game? Hello? Anyone at home at UbiSoft? Jeez...

I missed Lockdown actually so maybe you are right.

[Arma]

Some other examples - Disciples 2 was a great game, but the subsequent expansions were pretty bland. I know they are attempting a 3rd try with Disciples 3 Renaissance, but so far it looks like quite a mess. Warlords/Battlecry is/was a good franchize and I know that work has started on both sequels (though at an early stage) but still things are looking grim. Age of Wonders is a blast as far as TBS go, but's been like 5 years since there's been news on that.

[dteowner]

I'd say the X-Com series does qualify, as JemyM points out.

[Pladio]

The Settlers V : Heritage of Kings.

The first three games were great. Even though I was too young to fully enjoy the first one, but the second and third installment were great games. The fourth one disappointed me a lot, but I still thought it was a pretty decent game. The fifth however, that's a whole other story. They turned a great and unique game in another AoE clone. (I like AoE, just not their clones)

Gangsters II

Gangster: Organized Crime, a great game and unique too. Planning required tremendous effort and it was one of the greatest games made in my humble opinion. The second became a... well unique as well. Dumbed down from its predecessor so much that it just became an action/RTS with missions. Yes it was entertaining, but certainly not a good game for me.


MOO (I'll clarify and I hope I'm mixing this up with another game)
Master of Orion 3

I only managed to play the second one as I didn't know it existed before (from what I could gather, the first and second are quite similar). So, quite a nice strategy game. Buillding (even customizing) ships, research,... A very nice game. Combat was even done very nicely, TBS extraterrestrial ships shooting at each other; it did require some amount of skill though, since just shooting like a moron on whichever ship with whichever weapon wouldn't do it. MOO3 was poorly made with a very complicated interface. The only better thing were the graphics. All the rest was ... poor.


That's all I have for now.
:)

[zakhal]

Might and Magic. Just 6 months ago I studied the series and decided to skip it all together. Previously I had only played mm6. All games before that were dated and games after that didnt improve much resulting in the final game of the series which was complete trash.

UFO but its on lifesupport so its not dead yet.

[Corwin]

M&M 7 is brilliant and well worth the effort, give it a go!! The earlier games while graphically 'poor', are a ton of fun to play!!

[Dez]

I missed Lockdown actually so maybe you are right.

I gotta say he is right. Raven shield was as unforgiving as previous games..maybe even more unforiving as terrorists ai felt lot more unpredictable and team ai got improved as well. Also they made many great tiny improvements..opening the doors was truly one of the best.

I personally never cared the planing mode because those plans never really went like they were supposed. Usually A.I always usually got stuck and blew the mission if i wasn't baby-sitting them all the time... I rather command my team in the fly like in swat 3 than make awfully complex plans that shatter from the fire encounter :)

[Jaz]

In the RS games, I usually parked the team(s) the moment the level had finished loading, and then I went on the mission solo. Worked quite well.

As for series run into the ground... hmmm... the Earthsiege universe had that tendency, though two games in a row hardly can be called a series: while Cyberstorm was a real underdog - underestimated and under-sold, yet brilliant - , its successor Cyberstorm 2 bombed, and rightly so: it was an uninspired stinker that had left out all the fun parts of the predecessor while concentrating on new gameplay features which sounded nice but played awfully. Or think of Tribes: what worked well in the first one just didn't work for the rather underwhelming No. 2.

[xSamhainx]

I dont think that Ive ever known anyone who actually uses the planning mode for anything other than scoping out the level. It's nigh-impossible for me personally, I cant even begin to get it right. I have enough trouble just keeping the jackasses alive when Im right on top of them, babysitting them. Here Im supposed to cut them loose, and let them complete whole levels on autopilot?

I dont go as far as Jaz does, I still take them along and let them pick off any no-gooders that I dont catch. Not that I dont occasionally wipe out my whole team in frustration once and awhile and solo it...

[Alrik Fassbauer]

The Settlers V : Heritage of Kings.

The first three games were great. Even though I was too young to fully enjoy the first one, but the second and third installment were great games. The fourth one disappointed me a lot, but I still thought it was a pretty decent game. The fifth however, that's a whole other story. They turned a great and unique game in another AoE clone. (I like AoE, just not their clones)

I do partly agree. I have only played the Demo of the Settlers V yet.

However, with the remake of the Settlers II they get back to the roots.

They are now working on the Settlers VI, which looks at least promising.

I have the impression as if the both series The Settlers and Cultures are coming more and more near to one another - in fact members of Funatics (makers of the Cultures series) were already involved in the Settlers V.

[skavenhorde]

Eye of the beholder 3

I loved the first 2 but the third was horrible.

Lands of Lore

Once again first one was great!! I think it was the first RPG I played that had voice acting throughout the whole game and of course PATRICK STEWART as the king! But the rest were coasters right after I bought them.

Betrayal at Krondor

Absolutely fantastic story written by the master himself FIEST! Great combat (reminded me of Albion) and great voice acting sometimes. The game sierra made for a sequel (which had nothing to do with Fiest's universe) was Betrayal at Antara and it just stank! I did like the bead puzzles though. Return to Krondor wasn't too bad but didn't have the magic of the first.

Of course there is the old reliable game that has been driven into the ground, smashed upon with a giant hammer, thrown down the sewer and washed out to sea. I'm of course talking about FALLOUT

Loved the first two. Thought Tactics was pretty cool but never finished it, BUT Fallout:BOS is horrible. I should know I actually bought the dang thang. One of the few ppl who were stupid enough to think "well, maybe it will be okay, even though it's an action game." Now I don't mind action games. I played Bards Tale (the new one) all the way through and thought it was pretty good and funny. However this was just dumb

I know I'm going to get smacked on the head for mentioning this one. OBLIVION

One word BORING!!!!

[Moriendor]

In the RS games, I usually parked the team(s) the moment the level had finished loading, and then I went on the mission solo. Worked quite well.

Hehe, I can think of two Rogue Spear missions where that should have been nearly impossible (to play the missions solo that is). One is the Prague Opera mission where you absolutely needed (unless the AI "forgot" to shoot which did happen sometimes :biggrin: ) a team to enter from the side of the stage and one team to come through one of the front entrances (or the balconies... didn't matter but they needed a straight, frontal line of sight to the stage).
The second mission would be the 747. As soon as your main team entered the plane, one of the terrorist stepped out of the gangway (near the cockpit door) and would try to shoot the pilot or co-pilot. You had to have a sniper guy on the "grassy knoll" (JFK analogies FTW! :biggrin: ) opposite from the plane near the hangars to prevent that from happening or you got 'mission failed'.

In some of the other missions, I parked my team as well though. The 'go codes' were a great feature to reunite whenever one felt like it was safe for the team to advance so I usually cleared the starting area and then hit 'Alpha Go' and let them advance to the first waypoint. Then cleared the next area solo and hit 'Bravo Go' and so on.
Most of the time I didn't do this because the AI was too stupid to survive on its own though but because my AI teammates stole too many kills from me :) . Especially in those darker or bad weather missions with limited sight. You started the mission with your team in tow and then it went like 'Tango sighted' ... 'Tango down' ... 'Tango down' ... 'Target eliminated' a dozen times while I had barely even seen a bad guy. It was kinda boring to play the missions in auto-complete mode so that's why I eventually chose to solo more.

[Jaz]

Hehe, I can think of two Rogue Spear missions where that should have been nearly impossible (to play the missions solo that is).That's why I said 'usually' :). I did it so my lads wouldn't get hurt. It was possible to do some avatar hopping the moment you needed them; the only problem with this was the fact that once you left one, the poor, amnesic critter struggled to continue its earlier course, looking rather miserable most of the time, which made me wonder if I had violated the AI by possessing it. When I later saw '13th Floor', I felt really, really bad about my RS avatar-hopping :biggrin:...
At first, my preferred character was the one whose bio stated he hailed from my home town (I went as far as to look up his number in the local phone book). But the moment I noticed that there was a character in my lineup who could even sprint upstairs in full combat gear without making a sound, my sneaky side was reborn.

[Lucky Day]

Let me add the Gold Box games to the list. SSI was arguably good with nubmers but they were tedius and ugly. How many times can you use the same engine? I can't believe they sold so well.


The earlier games while graphically 'poor', are a ton of fun to play!!


The earlier games far outshone graphically anything at the time (except maybe MMI). The textures they put on doors for instance was not not thought possible. Much better than the wire frames of Wizardry or tiles and wireframes of Ultima. Far superior to blocky yucky ugliness of the Gold Box games and even better than Bard's Tale.

M&M had a reputation for high quality but it could never break the reputations of the "Big 3" or Gold Box games until it revived the RPG with MM6. Then all of a sudden it was the game everyone remembered.

Crusaders of MM nearly killed the Franchise. Anyone remember it? It was an Ultima 9 clone as near as I can tell. I think I remember something of development problems.

Y'now, I never really played MM6.

No has mentioned Doom 3.

Myth seems to be forgotten after Myth 3 and its bugginess, yet it was revolutionary with 1 and 2.

Someone said a month or 6 weeks ago that there are some games that will just sell no matter what. I think this poll testifies that it just isn't so.

Isn't the proper expression "Jump the Shark" ?

[Arma]

Isn't "Jump the Shark" only for TV shows?

As far as the M&M series go, I believe there are more than one titles responsible of the decline, apart from Crusaders of M&M and MM IX, let me add to the list things like Legends of M&M (a Countre Strike clone), Heroes Chronicles (there are better user made campaigns that are available for free), Heroes IV The Gathering Storm and Winds of War (terrible add-ons for a game that had promise), Heroes Quest for the Dragon Bone Staff (a console remake of King's Bounty), Warriors of M&M (a console hacking game), and Heroes V with the Hammers of Fate expansion. I can't find anything in it worth its while, and am missing all the Heroes that got swiped by the invention of the new game world.

[Moriendor]

Crusaders of MM nearly killed the Franchise. Anyone remember it? It was an Ultima 9 clone as near as I can tell. I think I remember something of development problems.

Hmmm are you sure about that? The way I remember it is that Crusaders was always just kind of like an experiment or a parallel development, i.e. an action spin-off of the original M&M. I don't remember it coming close to killing the franchise since development of M&M VII or VIII or IX (don't recall which one was in the works when Crusaders was released) must have run completely in parallel to Crusaders, no? And I don't think that 3DO ever seriously considered to bury the franchise because of the failure of Crusaders. I mean, Army Men and M&M was pretty much all the poor sobs ever had :) .

[Lucky Day]

your right on Crusdaers. I'm not sure what I was thinking. MM was still strong but getting worse as I heard and so was HoMM. Just an offshoot with the name attached like Ultima Underworld/Martian Dreams or Wizardry: Nemesis.

[Lucky Day]

Isn't "Jump the Shark" only for TV shows?


I was being coy. Its being used increasingly for other things, in particular for politicians. jumptheshark.com has endless debates of just when specifically a TV show declines. as the webmaster says "Jumping the shark applies not only to TV, but also music, film, even everyday life. 'Did you see her boyfriend? She definitely jumped the shark.' You get the idea."

MM would be a good candidate for their kind of debates.

Also, I wanted an excuse to use the word coy. I keep thinking its a kind of fish.

[bjon045]

Let me add the Gold Box games to the list. SSI was arguably good with nubmers but they were tedius and ugly. How many times can you use the same engine? I can't believe they sold so well.


Travesty!!! The gold box games were truly great!! They had without a doubt the best turn based combat engine and had some genuinely challenging battles. They weren't as good in general as the 2 buck rogers games(same engine - still wishing they made a 3rd one) but they had a couple of gems like secret of the silver blades and curse of the azure bonds. The savage frontier games were probably the worst, but I still found them somewhat enjoyable.

[Arma]

Crusaders was released in 99 if I am not mistaken, and was developed by an external developer (3DO itself or someone else) and not New World Computing, it barely borrowed anything from the Might and Magic series, apart from the name (haven't played the game myself actually I've just read some articles over the years). While it was true that it is/was and offshot game and therefore cannot be blamed for the demise of the series all by itself, after all this time has passed we can see it was the first in a series of mistakes made by 3DO the then publisher of the series related to the M&M franchize. It really was the first of these off-shot games, and while this in itself in not a bad thing, the sheer quantity of them and bad quality, paired with the rushed out releases in the main games series, MMIX and HoMMIV, took turn for the worse. If the off-shots (Crusaders, Warriors, Legends, Cronicles) were all better than average games or actually surpisingly good made in their respective genres and/or had good M&M quality as well, things would probably very different these days, we would have had a proper MMIX and HoMMIV, and probably much more. I know this is quess work, but ...

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Crusaders of MM nearly killed the Franchise. Anyone remember it?

Uh, don't remind me. *takes dried frog pills*