No Mutants Allowed - A History of Fallout Fandom

[Dhruin]

Stung by regular snide comments on the Fallout fanbase from various mass media quarters, NMA has the first part of a potentially controversial article titled Glittering Gems of Hatred - Eleven Angry Guys on a Website (http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=34542). This first part is mainly history and setup and it will be interesting to see if the remaining parts deny or justify the stereotype:
Rumors about Fallout 3 being in production had been bouncing around like wildfire in the early months of 2000. On May 7, 2000, BIS' David Hendee noted "Fallout 3 is not currently under production." (ref (http://www.nma-fallout.com/content.php?page=news-archive-05-2000)). On May 11, 2000, Interplay announced Fallout Tactics: Brotherhood of Steel. The initial reaction was worded well by Miroslav: "I'm a bit confused here. I won't talk anymore but wait to see more about this." This initial confusion was caused by the fact that everyone had been waiting for Fallout 3 and a lot of people still believed BIS' "secret project" was in fact Fallout 3. However, if you scroll through the news archives going on from May 2000 (ref (http://www.nma-fallout.com/content.php?page=news-archive)), you will find interest rose, especially after Fallout 1 developer Chris Taylor was revealed to be tied to the game. The NMA archives of this time do not reflect completely the fan reaction, as the game was being covered much more intensely elsewhere, especially on Duck and Cover.
More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=3721)

[doctor_kaz]

I can't think of any good IP that has been repeatedly shit on in the past 8 years like Fallout. I can't think of any other IP with two great installments where the industry just steadfastly refuses to make a third game in the same style. NMA may be too close-minded or intolerant of differing styles of games, but any fanbase would react this way if their favorite game series were murdered and corpse-raped in this manner. Can you imagine how pissed off Halo fans would be if Bungie cancelled Halo 3 and decided to make a Halo card battle game for the Nintendo DS instead? They'd be downright furious.

[txa1265]

Can you imagine how pissed off Halo fans would be if Bungie cancelled Halo 3 and decided to make a Halo card battle game for the Nintendo DS instead? They'd be downright furious.

You mean like the Metal Gear Ac!d games for the PSP? ;)

[Dez]

Handheld consoles are stupid. And no i'm not going to change my opinion of that. I want to play on the big screen while sitting comfortly on the armchair :)

[txa1265]

Handheld consoles are stupid.

?

I can see the argument that since many people play handhelds at home the purpose is unclear (much like the majority of laptops are always used on a desk) ... but aside from that ...

[Arma]

But they did not cancel Metal Gear Solid, did they? Have never liked the series, but I believe they did a good job on the trading card game? Unlike the stuff they did on the other Fallout game (well, I didn't like FO2 as a matter of fact and never had the thing for squad based tactical games ... though Desperados had a good story, but the difficulty was extreme for me, and I quite liked the Robin Hood game by the same developers).

Another thing is that there has not been a successful spiritual succesor to Fallout to fill in the void left since it came out. Most of the games that came out pretending to be in the same niche turned out half-bad, if not bad outright as to what I hear.

[txa1265]

But they did not cancel Metal Gear Solid, did they?

No, it was a pretty lousy analogy ... but since he mentioned the card game thing ... ;) But there *was* an uproar when the series was coming to the PSP as a card game - until they final did the action game in December.

[Brother None]

No, it was a pretty lousy analogy ... but since he mentioned the card game thing ... ;) But there *was* an uproar when the series was coming to the PSP as a card game - until they final did the action game in December.

Analogies like that still work, but I think there's more to consider when you look at the Fallout fanbase and series. It's not a simple one-two punch of "Fallout fans are angry because of how they were treated". That does not explain why Brotherhood of Steel flopped nor why Tactics was the most pre-ordered game in Interplay history.

Nor does it explain the acceptance many fans showed when Sawyer was "innovating" the Fallout series.

But, y'know, "more on that later"

[Lucky Day]

I have to say the fanbase turns me off quite a bit. They are not happy unless they're destroying anything that isn't Fallout. And they use Fallout as a crutch. which to base everything else. They seem to be most fixated on the baser side of the game as well.

The devs noticed as well which is one of the reasons they stopped reading their own forums in many cases. Many of them have been turned off in that no matter what kind of game they make this fanbase will give them bad, bad press. I for one wasn't impressed by the screenshots on FO3 that surfaced from the BIS devs after they finally left. It looked like a lot of recycling and nothing innovative at all. Its no wonder why so many publishers haven't wanted to go near it.

And, for the record here, I'm harping on the noisy fanbase here. I love the game itself. I was really, really happy when I found the language and graphic filter. Steve Jackson was to Fallout what Nickelodeon was to Spummco when they did Ren and Stimpy. Without some control it just wouldn't doesn't worked. I hope BS can learn a lesson from that.

[Brother None]

I have to say the fanbase turns me off quite a bit. They are not happy unless they're destroying anything that isn't Fallout. And they use Fallout as a crutch. which to base everything else. They seem to be most fixated on the baser side of the game as well.

The devs noticed as well which is one of the reasons they stopped reading their own forums in many cases. Many of them have been turned off in that no matter what kind of game they make this fanbase will give them bad, bad press.

These and many more predictable recycled arguments to be debunked in the coming week!

Man, I love free advertisments.

Yeah, we totally never had good dev interaction! Did you even read the article the newspost linked to or did you just decide to comment out of the blue?

Your shock that a Fallout fansite would put other games below the game they are dedicated to is understandeable, though. Jeesh, talk about peripheral vision.

[Briosafreak]

The devs noticed as well which is one of the reasons they stopped reading their own forums in many cases. Many of them have been turned off in that no matter what kind of game they make this fanbase will give them bad, bad press

Come on, go read the article before you say those things ok? But your post is important to reinforce the need to understand the myths surrounding the FO community and to better show the actual events that took place in the last (almost 10) years, and what are just misconceptions. A critical eye is always important, good work Kharn.

[Acleacius]

We of course all have pentacles in our social preferences which other interactions are measured by, this is the way the human brain works, learns and grows, doesn’t matter if it’s a game, sport team, music style, literature, science, medicine or human rights.

I have certainly heard of worst choices than Fallout, heck doctor-kaz even mentioned one Halo, apologies to all the Halo fans, well sort of. ;)

[doctor_kaz]

I think that there are other significant factors in this as well. As someone else pointed out earlier, not only has there not been a Fallout 3, there hasn't been a remotely decent spiritual successor to the game since then either. Combine this with Black Isle and Troika leaving the business, Deus Ex: Invisible War being a disaster, and Bioware essentially abandoning the PC and what you have is a very dismal period for single player PC RPG's. Fallout is only badly outdated in its graphics, and maybe a bit in the interface, so it's extremely frustrating that nobody has even tried to make a faithful Fallout 3. What you have, basically, is a perfect shitstorm for somebody who's favorite game was Fallout.

[Cormac]

[...]But your post is important to reinforce the need to understand the myths surrounding the FO community and to better show the actual events that took place in the last (almost 10) years, and what are just misconceptions. A critical eye is always important, good work Kharn.

I'm just amazed that the FO community is such an important part of history that myths have actually grown out of it.
Keep up the good work, boys !

[Moriendor]

I'm just amazed that the FO community is such an important part of history that myths have actually grown out of it.
Keep up the good work, boys !

Haha...

Yeah, dude. Didn't you know that 'Rage against the machine' was a Fallout fan band? Or that the CIA is secretly observing Fallout fans as a threat to the system? Or that there is a secret order for police officers across the world to shoot Fallout fans on sight? I mean they're sooo important and sooo armed and sooo dangerous (especially EXTREMELY dangerous) that the system doesn't have any other choice, you know? You gotta shoot first and ask questions later with these extremely angry and dangerous (oh, and important) people. You thought Al-Qaida was a pain in the ass? Just wait. Fallout fans will bring on the apocalypse so they can, like, really get into it and live their game after the event. Mark my words, dude. These guys are greater than life. We're all fucked and d00med!!!

[xSamhainx]

I wish that they would just drop this ridiculous air of importance about the whole thing. It's truly funny to me, they should make a reality show around these people.

[Cormac]

[...]they should make a reality show around these people.

11 guys locked in a vault for 99 days. All they have for entertainment is a XBox 360 with a copy of Oblivion.

[Brother None]

I wish that they would just drop this ridiculous air of importance about the whole thing.

There is no importance in anything but what people attach to it. This makes your remark as meaningless as it is predictable.

Seriously, why do people say things like "you people think it's way too important" or "big deal" or "stop pretending it matters". Such remarks are meaningless, they will never add anything to any discussion.

Hmmm...Very post-modernist I guess. The remarks and thoughts may be true, but they have no practical value or consequences whatsoever. Barking into the wind, I guess?

[xSamhainx]

11 guys locked in a vault for 99 days. All they have for entertainment is a XBox 360 with a copy of Oblivion.

make that a copy of "Fallout:Brotherhood of Steel" and you very well may have a smash hit on your hands. Now there's a reality show that I'd watch :D

[Moriendor]

Yup. And invite Pete Hines and Herve Cain as surprise guests :) .

[txa1265]

11 guys locked in a vault for 99 days. All they have for entertainment is a XBox 360 with a copy of Oblivion.

Wouldn't that show be called 'Codex Hell'? ;)

[Briosafreak]

Cormac and Moriendor it's my sad duty to tell you guys that you won't have a future in comedy. More to the point your irony sucks.


Having said that it's important to notice that just a few days ago the editor of Gamespy wrote:

I need to this to be good, not just because I've wanted this for years, but because it'll make the "No Mutants Allowed" crowd heads explode. Anything that ticks off Fallout fans makes me happy.

It's important to notice that at the same time NMA continues to have a steady influx of trolls (http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=16174). Actually since Bethesda anounced Fallout3 we had a Ddos attack by people from Something Awfull, a troll invasion by people from Penny Arcade, a dev moking us on SA, and a guy who was only known for his rants against Fallout fans to be hired as a tester by Bethesda, just to climb in a year to assistant producer.

So examining the causes of this context and the implications of this trend, while deconstructing the anti Fallout fan speech and the motivations behind it seems a good start at a point when Bethesda is getting ready to show the game and strong discussions are coming up.

Just because you kids like to conform and be happy with reality show jokes, dwelling in your acephalia with an idiot smile that does not mean the rest of the world has to be like that. Not yet, at least.

[Arma]

Actually, in my very (not)-so humble opinion, there is one game that comes to Fallout (1) in terms of athmosphere and I find it a king of spiritual succesor to it. That is Geneforge (1). Although a basic overview would find that there is nothing in common between the 2 games, I find the athmosphere of both very similar. I admit I am not a die hard Fallout fan, and I actually did play Fallout after I played Geneforge, but still ...

[Dhruin]

I can agree with that. Not sure I'd call it a "spiritual successor" but I can find some points of similarity.

[Cormac]

Cormac not funny etc.

I stand corrected. Attacked by trolls, a ddos attack, mocked by some guy, an old enemy who's now on the F3 team, yes you guys are the shit.
Not sure I understand your last 2 sentences: can you rewrite them so they actually make sense ? I think you confused me with someone who actually cares enough about fans of two games (no, just one) that I'd set myself against them in some sort of crusade. No, I'm not a troll of nma, and I dont work for Bethsoft. I dont really give a shit about F3, actually. Unlike you guys.

[Briosafreak]

I dont really give a shit

Because you sir are a conformist, a sheep that goes with the flow, a blink on an internet forum. Someone needs to tell you of your misguided ways, when trying to judge everyone else and everything else by your low standards and minuscule expectations. And then explain to you that if in the end you are happy like that, as a silenced lamb without the touch required for irony, that doesn't mean the others have to be like that, minuscule, sad, giggling of highschool jokes when the grown ups are trying to have a conversation. Just that.

[Brother None]

I stand corrected. Attacked by trolls, a ddos attack, mocked by some guy, an old enemy who's now on the F3 team, yes you guys are the shit.

Ugh. Reading problem much?
"Seriously, why do people say things like "you people think it's way too important" or "big deal" or "stop pretending it matters". Such remarks are meaningless, they will never add anything to any discussion.

Hmmm...Very post-modernist I guess. The remarks and thoughts may be true, but they have no practical value or consequences whatsoever. Barking into the wind, I guess?"

Arguments based on your perceived valuelessness of the object of the argument are...well...inherently incorrect.

I dont really give a shit about F3, actually. Unlike you guys.

'k. Thanks for your opinion, it's really valuable to us, Mr. Intended Audience!

[Moriendor]

@ Biofreak: Always sad to watch people get totally disconnected from reality. Poor thing.

@ Kharn: You already said pretty much the exact same thing on the previous page. What's the matter with your short-term memory? Drug abuse? That's a serious question.

Oh well, keep on fighting, you basement rebelz you! The establishment is trembling in fear of your collective awesomeness...

[Brother None]

You already said pretty much the exact same thing on the previous page. What's the matter with your short-term memory? Drug abuse? That's a serious question.

Do you know what quotes are? These thingies: "

They are used to indicate your are quoting something. In this case, I was quoting myself.

Oh well, keep on fighting, you basement rebelz you! The establishment is trembling in fear of your collective awesomeness...

For the third time; that is an irrelevant form of argumentation. Either prove to me that this retarded shouting of "it doesn't matter anyway" and "you guys think you're more important than you are" is actually relevant or come up with something new, because this is tiring. And I hate repeating myself.

[Cormac]

Because you sir are a conformist, a sheep that goes with the flow, a blink on an internet forum. Someone needs to tell you of your misguided ways, when trying to judge everyone else and everything else by your low standards and minuscule expectations. And then explain to you that if in the end you are happy like that, as a silenced lamb without the touch required for irony, that doesn't mean the others have to be like that, minuscule, sad, giggling of highschool jokes when the grown ups are trying to have a conversation. Just that.

Well, unlike me, you are very funny. Priceless stuff !

[Cormac]

Hmmm...Very post-modernist I guess. The remarks and thoughts may be true, but they have no practical value or consequences whatsoever. Barking into the wind, I guess?"

Postmodernist, me ? Ouch. Hey Kharn, if the remarks are True, how can they be Without Value ? What are you talking about ? Barking into the wind, anyway, isnt as bad as pissing against the wind.

Arguments based on your perceived valuelessness of the object of the argument are...well...inherently incorrect.

Now that's postmodernist writing !

[Moriendor]

For the third time; that is an irrelevant form of argumentation. Either prove to me that this retarded shouting of "it doesn't matter anyway" and "you guys think you're more important than you are" is actually relevant or come up with something new, because this is tiring. And I hate repeating myself.

Prove it how? What is there to "prove"? You're pretending as if there is some objective standard at work here. There isn't. It's purely subjective. But, fine, I'll tell you. The relevance to myself is that I find it pretty fucking annoying to watch a bunch of angry, self-important, self-victimizing, self-pitying basement-dwelling teenagers (or people who simply refused to grow up between when FO first came out and now) with over-inflated egos polluting this planet. That's all.
This whole "us vs them" bullshit is ridiculous and unnecessary. Just look at these very forums here. There are a lot of people around here who liked FO a lot and who don't feel the need to gang up and act like total holier than thou jackasses about it. To call these people or others "sheep" for not joining the "fight" (a fight that's only going on in your heads BTW... Don Qixote and the windmills come to mind...) is totally retarded. There's nothing to fight for. Grow the fuck up and get a life while you're at it :) .

[Briosafreak]

Cormac you care! That's wonderfull! You keep coming back a lot for someone that doesn't give a shit, so you must care! How wonderfull, let's all sing around the fireplace now!

And Moriendor it's always sad to watch people get totally disconnected from reality trying to argument on a forum discussion. Wait no it isn't, it's just pathetic. In reality people have to back their points with valid arguments and insightful remarks, giving a meaning to the discussion instead of going on wild tangents and braindead remarks. You sir suck at reality.

Are these two creatures representative of the CRPG crowd as a whole? Full of wind and lacking any consistency, any soul? No, they are just a part of it. It would be interesting to have an article on CRPG fans in general, you guys from RPGWatch should seriously consider the task.


Edit: Moriendor don't think for a second you have any moral high ground to order me to have a life. I'm a happily married father of two 35 five years old guy who didn't said a word on those that showed criticisms on the Fallout fans in the first posts of this topic, you were the one with the "holier than though" attitude and you are the looser that couldn't argument properly until a point where you start with the "everything is subjective" crap that school kids may use, but as an escape argument hurts anyone with half a brain.

You definitely need to get a life quickly, instead of amusing the grown ups.

[Corwin]

WOW, this might just be our first mini-flame war!! Try to cool it guys and argue the POINTS, not just the EMOTIONS!! :) Still, I do like the idea of an article dealing with CRPG fans, so I'll keep it in mind for some of our future plans!!

[aries100]

Personally, I liked Fallout: Tactics. It was a bit of a tactical team combat game set in the Fallout universe. I really had to think, plan ahead and play both strategically and tactically to do the missions or quests in the game.

Sometimes I go to the NMA webiste --- but I'm sad to say --- leave in a hurry again.
To me, clear it is, that NMA basically wants the same gameplay as in FO1 and FO2.
Maybe they will agree to updated graphics, and the use of a PhysX engine in the game, but they still want their turnbased combat and the other things in FO1 and FO2. However, this isn't a realistic approach in today's competetive market.

I concur & agree that FO1&FO2 were great games, when they were released a decade ago, but if they were released to day...well, I just don't think they quite are going to cut it (or make it through) in today's market. Certainly not with the stark competition from FPS games like Prey, Farscape, Halo 1+2 or even HalfLife, Counter-Strike and Touch Detective for Nintendo DS Lite. Many more games are being released today than 10 years ago; this means taht you really really have to, as a developer/publisher, to stay ahead, and gain more info, data and knowledge and knowhow all the time, to keep making games, people actually are going to buy.

This is maybe a bit of topic, but it seems that there are some great adventure games out there for the Nintendo DS, so I don't really thet the whole console vs.
pc war. The main thing is that people play adventure or rpg games, then, in principle, it really doesn't matter on what console they play these games...

As a sidenote, I went to my local EB Games shop today, and looked at some XBOX 360 titles. There were, in fact 1 or 2 games, I probably would enjoy playing. Same were true for Nintendo DS...

[abbaon]

In reality people have to back their points with valid arguments and insightful remarks, giving a meaning to the discussion instead of going on wild tangents and braindead remarks. You sir suck at reality.

Are these two creatures representative of the CRPG crowd as a whole? Full of wind and lacking any consistency, any soul? No, they are just a part of it.
Speaking of windbags. "And what aught of value have your mewlings produced, sir? I shall now liken them to the desolate wind blowing through the graves of our beloved genre. But does it speak of ill of we who tend to her in her repose? It does not! For we are legion!" Got enough scenery to chew there, Olivier?

[Arma]

The point of the whole thing, is that there are enough people that want to buy a game that plays like and offers the other things that Fallout 1 had with updated graphics, but there hasn't been one for like 10 years. It certainly is not a mainstream game like Oblivion, WoW or anythings that can sell millions of copies, but still ... Not a single game that even comes close?

[Brother None]

Maybe they will agree to updated graphics, and the use of a PhysX engine in the game, but they still want their turnbased combat and the other things in FO1 and FO2. However, this isn't a realistic approach in today's competetive market.

Realise that doesn't really change much, though. Who says unrealistic goals are not worth fighting for.

And that's assuming you're right. And I agree with Arma there 100%. The problem is that if you produce YET ANOTHER game that does not offer anything that the competition does not offer, you are throwing yourself smack dab in the middle of that competition. Halo? Half-Life? Counterstrike? These are all not games any cRPG has to compete with. There isn't one big all-encompassing "gaming" market, each genre has its own market. Oblivion? Gothic 3? The many more action-RPGs being produced? Yes, Fallout 3 could be thrown into the same market as that, creating its own competition. Or it couldn't.

Try to cool it guys and argue the POINTS, not just the EMOTIONS!!

Exactly right. I haven't heard a single remark that actually has to do with the article in this thread. Hell, I'm unclear on why we're discussing Fallout fan egos in the first place. Grand that some people don't like it, but what the hell is there to discuss?

[Corwin]

Look, the bottom line is this:- Once Grimoire is released, Cleve will start work on his Fallout type masterpiece. If nothing else, THAT should give ALL of you something to argue about for several years!! :biggrin:

[Greatatlantic]

Look, the bottom line is this:- Once Grimoire is released, Cleve will start work on his Fallout type masterpiece. If nothing else, THAT should give ALL of you something to argue about for several years!! :biggrin:

Grimoire, released? Thats a bigger joke then anything posted in the past week.

[Briosafreak]

I'm with Corwin on this! We need the Grim man!

[Bradylama]

Maybe they will agree to updated graphics, and the use of a PhysX engine in the game, but they still want their turnbased combat and the other things in FO1 and FO2. However, this isn't a realistic approach in today's competetive market.

Quite the contrary. The very fact that there hasn't been a game like that since 1998 means that it's a market with underemployed resources. Developers and publishers acted like turn-based cRPGs were a thing of the past because they wanted to do something different, not because there wasn't a demand for them. Like it's been mentioned before, the Fallouts and even Tactics have been re-released several times over the last decade, and there was enough demand for them to re-release them a year ago. The demand is there, and it's sure as Hell enough to make the product profitable.

Maybe they can't drop half the budget on The Shiny and advanced "PhysX" engines like they did with Oblivion, but the money is there to be made.

[Dagon]

If it would be well designed Isometric + TB, with great story, great dialogs and characters with rich personalities I would buy 5 copies of the game just to support the series with cash.
Is the Geneforge worth playing? I never saw it, is it really good as you say?

[abbaon]

Yep. You'll want his other games as well. For five copies of each, that comes to $915. Mighty generous of you.

[Dagon]

I don't have money I am poor university student but if Fallout 3 would be TB & Iso I woyuld buy it 5 times anyway. Fallout has a special place in my heart

[Acleacius]

Kharn
"Exactly right. I haven't heard a single remark that actually has to do with the article in this thread."
Humm, well I think some of us have, doctor_kaz certainly did then a couple of jokes then one dissenter, then as with myself we were talking about the premise set in the article trying to expand, understand and rationalize the cause and effects.
While went didn’t say the interview by name certainly some of the debate is what the article intended to cultivate, is it not?
Or do you really think we have all missed the premise and intent?

Well I did enjoy the article and looking forward to the series which is why I and I think others have been trying to participate, though I do understand why you could feel like that after having to deal with such intense disagreements. :)

Personally I don't know a lot about NMA other than they are the most reliable Fallout site and when I need something Fallout its where I go to get files, understand potential bugs and find fixes. :)
So I am not sure what several in the thread are referring too, other than being die RPG fans (if I understand correctly) which sounds like a great pastime since most of us here are RPG fans, some even diehard. ;)

So for the record I really liked FO and FO2, though I am not an isometric view or TB Only fan.
As an example I found a lot of the same game design atmosphere, humor and quite possibly some of the best NPCs ever written, voiced and acted in another Troika game, Bloodlines on the other hand Arcanum was great too, all have been pretty dang buggy at least at release.

[Corwin]

The graphics in GF are pre-historic, but it has great gameplay and is a lot of fun!!

[Bradylama]

So for the record I really liked FO and FO2, though I am not an isometric view or TB Only fan.

It's not impossible to create a good roleplaying experience with a first-person real-time game, nobody's made that claim. The problem is that fans don't want a Fallout sequel that isn't isometric and turn-based. What's the point in doing it otherwise? That it is isometric and turn-based is part of why people loved the games, and if you change that part of the formula it doesn't feel like a Fallout game anymore.

Iso-TB and FP-RT are distinct experiences, and while one can argue that the one is superior to the other, there's no point in changing the fundamental feel of an established franchise. The only conceivable reason is to try and garner more fans, and historically that method has failed almost every single time.

[Arma]

The graphics in GF are pre-historic, but it has great gameplay and is a lot of fun!!

On the other hand it runs perfecty on the same prehistoric configurations and probably on a microwave oven as well!!!

[Lucky Day]

These and many more predictable recycled arguments to be debunked in the coming week!

Yeah, we totally never had good dev interaction! Did you even read the article the newspost linked to or did you just decide to comment out of the blue?

Your shock that a Fallout fansite would put other games below the game they are dedicated to is understandeable, though. Jeesh, talk about peripheral vision.

I apologize you are correct I hadn't actually read the article. I was commenting on how annoyed I had become with this particular niche.

The reason I didn't read the article is too often I have gone to the NMA site only to wish I hadn't. Those stupid cartoons of yours for instance.

So, I just finished reading the article now however, and after re-reading my own comments I still stand by them.

The lack of dev interaction I was referring to to was the comments from some of the devs themselves saying they stopped reading their own forums. That wasn't everyone of course.

I'm a fan of Fallout and enjoyed it immensely. These are hardly "myths" as you say. It might make you feel better to say that and if that's what you want, be my guest.

These are my observations as I've followed the game and the reactions over the years. I'm sorry to say they've earned reputation as its perceived. That's the way I see it. If I'm wrong why is this "mini-flame war" even going on?

To tell you the truth it was the hijacking of the top RPG list over at the .dot that I discovered this community in the first place. Either DaC or your NMA linked to it and it was the first time I saw the place.


It's not impossible to create a good roleplaying experience with a first-person real-time game, nobody's made that claim. The problem is that fans don't want a Fallout sequel that isn't isometric and turn-based.

you forgot the word some before the word fans there.


if you change that part of the formula it doesn't feel like a Fallout game anymore.

so you say. the fact that Fallout was so different from Wasteland did that stop it from keeping the same spirit? I said before the shots from Fo3 looked like they were recycling. Let's get this game up to the times. I tried playing FO2 again last year..its tedius and out of date.

That's all I'm going to say for now. And me without my Stimpack.

Hmm..how would a "History of the RPGDot/RPGWatch Regulars" article go over?

[Corwin]

What, more work for the staff, another article suggestion!! :biggrin:

[hordespawn]

you forgot the word some before the word fans there.


Why would you claim to be a fan of something and then want it to be something else? That would be kind of like saying Halo was a great game, but would have been a lot better as a real time strategy game.

Apparently, a lot of people are of the opinion that because the atmosphere, humor, etc. were so paramount to the success of the franchise, that these elements can be transplanted to a dissimilar game and still be a success. And it just might be. None of that really has to do with Fallout being a video game. Fallout was an isometric, turn-based roleplaying game.

Of course, without the atmosphere, humor, etc., Fallout would not have been as great. But Fallout was more than just a setting. The way the game played, in my opinion, had as much to do with its atmosphere as the story.

First person, real time games can be immersive. They have the ability to put you in the middle of the action in a way that causes you to think on your feet. This gives a certain atmosphere and because of this first person perspective and real time are frequently used in games that are fairly fast paced. Seeing exactly what your character is seeing facilitates games of this type. Fallout however is not fast paced. It was not an action game. It was a turn-based rpg. This, to anyone who plays video games, suggests an entirely different gaming experience than something such as Oblivion.

And this is why I believe Fallout fans (the majority of them anyways) seem to be very skeptical of Bethesda when they say that FO3 will be made on the same engine. Oblivion is very different from Fallout reguardless of what Bethesda thinks.

Basically I guess it comes down to whether you think Fallout was the sum of its parts or something greater, and I'd like to believe most Fallout fans take the latter position. Fallout was not a great game for any one reason; it was the accumulation of everything. The thought of removing any of it just doesn't sit right, which is why most of us would prefer it to be left alone than to be resurrected as something else, something not Fallout.

[Moriendor]

Why would you claim to be a fan of something and then want it to be something else?

I think you're making wrong use of the term "fan". I really, really don't want to start another or continue the flame war from earlier (really, I don't :) ) but the people that you are probably referring to (regulars at RPGCodex and NMA) are not Fallout fans. The people that you are referring to are completely obsessed with Fallout (and not in a good way if I may add). Obsession does not equal fandom.

Let me give you an example of fandom. Me. I'd consider myself a pretty big fan of the original Realms of Arkania trilogy that came to an end with Shadows over Riva in 1996. Ever since then there have been three attempts at games in the same world and setting (LMK, Armalion -both of which were cancelled- and Drakensang which is currently WIP).

I was kind of disappointed (especially with the first two, LMK and Armalion) to find out that all of those games would not continue in the tradition of the original trilogy but on the other hand, I was really happy that I would be able to return to this great virtual world (Aventuria) at all. I mean how awesome is that? They (licence holder Fanpro) could have just said 'ah feck it' and it looked like they did for a looong, looong time after Armalion was cancelled but then finally after years of waiting and hoping Drakensang was announced.

Sure, Drakensang is going to be completely different from the original RoA games but still... I'm perfectly able to accept that the developers have to make certain changes and compromises to turn the game into a (mainstream) success. Times are changing. It's a natural progression. Begging for an "old sk00l" Realms of Arkania experience would be right on par with begging for black and white TV to return. Ain't gonna happen. Period.

That's why I'm keeping an open mind about Drakensang. Of course, it might turn out that I don't like the game. Maybe they're going to screw up the design in some way or another but that risk is associated with any game. We'll see about that.

Drakensang will be giving me the opportunity to revisit a virtual world and setting that I like a lot. I'm looking forward to it. Gameplay or perspective changes don't matter to me as long as the game is fun. Which I hope it will be.
I'm also one of those strange people who really enjoyed C&C Renegade. As a first person shooter it was radically different from the C&C RTS series, of course, but still... it was great fun to play a different game in the same world and setting. I didn't have a problem with that at all and never felt the need to spew forth endless amounts of crap and hate at the developers of Renegade or -now- Drakensang.

Maybe because I'm a fan and not pathologically obsessed like certain other people(?)

[Acleacius]

Bradylama
"nobody's made that claim."
Right, I was just sharing my personal, open to “all views” preference.

"The problem is that fans don't want a Fallout sequel that isn't isometric and turn-based."
Well that maybe true and justified for many or even most Fallout fans.
I would wager however that, if say Troika had decided to make a more variable view game, for instance with a cam similar to NWN2 to allow personal preferences of perspective views, to maybe see new and improved graphics or whatever, it wouldn't have an negative effect, even to the fans whom only want an Iso view.
I also submit that allowing choice of play style is part of the core philosophy which makes Fallout series standout above other games.

"What's the point in doing it otherwise.....oesn't feel like a Fallout game anymore."
Percepually sound but as I just mentioned above not accurate 100% of the time and is why I listed various other view possiblity choice without effect and reasons why these personal choices could exist in harmony with your view. ;)

"Iso-TB and FP-RT are distinct experiences....."
True and as you mentioned there is no point to change fundementals, but there are ways to enhance the original feel or concepts by allowing choice which does bring more fans and personally I have no objections and actually encouage devs to actually retain core princapale but provide more choices, since smaller nitch titles are hard to sustain without new fans, otherwise the whole concept can be killed off, until someone else trys to pickup where others failed to get the proper balance to continue to survive.

hordespawn
"And this is why I believe Fallout fans (the majority of them anyways) seem to be very skeptical of Bethesda when they say that FO3"
I sure hope you don't think just because we are a little more open to enhancing Fallout, suggest we support Bethseda, good lord you are in the wrong forums if you think "we think" Bethseda is going to do justice to Fallout. :p

Bethseda has had to actually hire an outside wirter to actually create the one of the better questlines they have ever had, the Dark Brotherhood.
Personaly if I had to choose I of all the quests I like the Thief guild quest the best.
Hell PB's worst quest (I haven't a clue what that is, since I like them all) would still be better than most anything if not all Bethseda's quests.
The only positive things I have been able to say about this situation is the Editor and Character Creation. I personally think more choices is a good thing. :)

[abbaon]

Why would you claim to be a fan of something and then want it to be something else? That would be kind of like saying Halo was a great game, but would have been a lot better as a real time strategy game.
A fan could appreciate something for what it was and not need to see it repeated a second time. That fan could want to try something that had never been done before -- like a first-person, real-time game in the Fallout milieu -- without wishing the original had taken that tack. I'm speaking hypothetically, since I fucking hated the mechanics of the first two games, but the idea that "a fan of something" must want to see that thing rehashed over and over is not necessarily the case.

[Corwin]

I think a LOT of people feel that the very WORST developer for the Fallout Licence is Bethsoft, simply because the things they do worst, are the things which really stand out as the strengths of the original games!! Sorry, but Oblivion with guns does NOT equal a Fallout game for me!!

[abbaon]

I take the opposite view. I see Bethsoft's chief strength in its ability to develop and respect a fictional world, which is where the appeal of Fallout lies for me. The dialogue in the original never impressed me as anything more than workmanlike. Great voice acting, though.

[hordespawn]

I guess I was a little too specific. My post was not meant to be a "copy the original down to the letter" but rather to stay true to the basis of the game. I'll be the first to say that the Fallout world is rather captivating and visiting it in a different way could be refreshing. People have adapted Fallout for tabletop gameplay. I've looked over it and changes were made to the game. For the most part though, they kept what was already established as good, added a few twists for novelty, gave the option of experiencing the world from a different point of view, and made some changes to make it playable with dice.

I'm not against change. A rehash of the first two games would be pointless, but just taking the name and slapping it on something completely different wouldn't be any better. There are certain aspects of the game that could be updated, but if you want to change practically everything then what's the point of calling it a Fallout game? I personally liked the combat system in Fallout, but a modification of the combat system wouldn't necessarily be bad. I can't realistically see a Fallout game being made first person and real time and still manage to keep its rpg elements intact though. Something along the lines of NWN might not be so bad (NWN still had a turn based element to it, it's just abstracted and put on a timer), but that's not what can be expected from FO3.

There's also the other facts that FO's original developers are all but gone. If Fallout was still in the hands of the original developers, I think the Fallout fanbase would be different. But it isn't. It's as if a novelist had created an amazing world, and then stopped writing only for someone else to come in and continue the story. Invariably, it will be different, and very likely it will miss the mark that made the original great. This holds true to a lesser extent with video games. There are additional complications in that video games are made by teams rather than individuals, but a radical change in the dev team will mean a significantly different game. In Fallout's past, this has often meant that the game didn't really fit within the Fallout universe which caused the allure of revisiting the setting you liked to not really be as strong as it should have been.

Even assuming that FO3 was to be made by someone other than Bethesda, I have really yet to hear any compelling reasons why a turn based engine could not be successful. Real time is not the "wave of the future", it's just different, not better or worse.

And for the record, I never assumed any of you thought that Bethesda would do Fallout justice, I was pointing out that they are the ones who are making the game so ultimately the get to decided what goes into the game, reguardless of what any so-called fan would prefer.

[Corwin]

One simple question: How many really memorable NPC's has Bethsoft ever created? Please name them!!

[abbaon]

Sure. I remember these people as vividly as I do any other videogame character, bar those in Planescape: Torment. You may not, but your memory is a faulty instrument and not to be trusted.

Dagoth Ur, the mad god
Vivec, the bored god
Caius Cosades, the cynical shirtless crackhead
Crassius Curio - come on
Divayth Fyr and his creepy clones
Yagrum, the last dwarf
Maiq, but that's cheating
Owyn, the Arena Blademaster
Lucien LaChance, the ham
The Night Mother
The Gray Prince
Mazoga, th- pardon me, Sir Mazoga
Mankar Camoran, who certainly made the most of his screen time

I could go on if you like.

[Corwin]

None of those names mean a thing to me, and I've played every TES game including Arena!! I wonder if anyone doesn't know who Boo is?

[abbaon]

Yes, but you probably don't remember what year it is.

[Moriendor]

None of those names mean a thing to me, and I've played every TES game including Arena!! I wonder if anyone doesn't know who Boo is?

Come on. It's getting a bit silly now. Who remembers what NPC from a game is a pretty subjective matter and depends greatly on when a person has played a game (I for one can't remember a single NPC from Fallout simply because it's been several years since I last played the games) but if you can't even remember Lucien or The Gray Prince then I don't believe you when you say that you have really played Oblivion. Or maybe you have but probably not for more than five minutes. It's been under a year since that game came out. I'd have to assume an intentionally selective memory on your part just to make a point ;) .

[Arma]

I admit that I haven't played Oblivion at all, and that I played Morrowind only a little bit before I got bored to death with the so-vast gameworld that I could not find anything in it armed with a walkthrough, but there are hardly any momorable NPC in it. I blame that on both the open-endness and the lack of dialogue. And probably for the lack of a strong storyline.

However, even as time passes, I remember pretty well notable NPC from most games I've played. Even Sacred and Diablo, who hardly qualify as proper RPGs, have memorable NPCs like Prince Vaalor or Cain and Tyrael. The most I remember from Morrowind are the stuck up elf Enchanter on top of the Mages guild and the cat-like alchemist in the basement, since they at least had a bit of character despite not having a sinlge good line assigned to them. When there are thousands of NPC created a certain level of blandness and indifference kicks in. I won't even mention games like Arcanum or Baldur's Gate that have at least half a dozen memorable NPC in each location.

[KazikluBey]

"The problem is that fans don't want a Fallout sequel that isn't isometric and turn-based."
Well that maybe true and justified for many or even most Fallout fans.
I would wager however that, if say Troika had decided to make a more variable view game, for instance with a cam similar to NWN2 to allow personal preferences of perspective views, to maybe see new and improved graphics or whatever, it wouldn't have an negative effect, even to the fans whom only want an Iso view.
I would wager that there would be a whole lot of disappointment at the very least, if they decided to not go with an isometric perspective. They might have been given the benefit of doubt, unlike Bethesda, but that's only because several of the original FO creators worked at Troika.

Let me give you an example of fandom. Me. I'd consider myself a pretty big fan of the original Realms of Arkania trilogy that came to an end with Shadows over Riva in 1996. Ever since then there have been three attempts at games in the same world and setting (LMK, Armalion -both of which were cancelled- and Drakensang which is currently WIP).
That analogy is faulty: They're not making RoA 4, they're just making a new game that happens to be set in DSA-PnP-setting. If you had worried they might rape DSA's name, your complaint may have held some weight, but even so I suspect that the creators of DSA/their company had a say in licensing their franchise for Drakensang, meaning they would have themselves to blame. I just wish the Fallout developers had the same chance with FO3 (like, say, licensing it to themselves at Troika).

A fan could appreciate something for what it was and not need to see it repeated a second time. That fan could want to try something that had never been done before -- like a first-person, real-time game in the Fallout milieu -- without wishing the original had taken that tack. I'm speaking hypothetically, since I fucking hated the mechanics of the first two games, but the idea that "a fan of something" must want to see that thing rehashed over and over is not necessarily the case.
Yes, which is why a lot of people look forward to Afterfall (if it ever even gets finished). Bethesda could easily have made their own post-apocalyptic FPS/RPG instead of (likely) besmirching the Fallout franchise further.

[zakhal]

Bethsoft can make a great scripted dialogue if they want. Just look at redguard.

Its just that elder scrolls series has always been a kind of experiment to automatically create as good as possible dialogues with minimal scripting. You cant judge bethsofts ability to make good scripted dialogue according to that because it has never been a priority in the series. Fallout 3 though IS NOT elder scrolls.

Personally I have always thought the ES as doom with RPG elements where superb dialogue is not really important. This is very true especially if you have played the first game.

[abbaon]

Yes, which is why a lot of people look forward to Afterfall (if it ever even gets finished). Bethesda could easily have made their own post-apocalyptic FPS/RPG instead of (likely) besmirching the Fallout franchise further.
My post should be read as a reply to hordespawn, discussing whether it was possible to be a fan of something and still desire try something new, not as a comment on what "a lot of people" would prefer. I don't care how the NMA crowd feels about Fallout 3.

[Briosafreak]

think you're making wrong use of the term "fan". I really, really don't want to start another or continue the flame war from earlier (really, I don't ) but the people that you are probably referring to (regulars at RPGCodex and NMA) are not Fallout fans.

Eheheheh right, no need to reply to this, you really suck at reality :)

The rest of the discussion is interesting, and it's happening a bit everywhere now, check digg (http://digg.com/gaming_news/Bethesda_already_several_years_into_Fallout_3/) and V3d (http://ve3dboards.ign.com/role_playing/b10503/26008386/p1/)

[Moriendor]

Eheheheh right, no need to reply to this, you really suck at reality :)

And you suck at quoting...

[Brother None]

And you suck at quoting...

And you suck by ignoring that Drakensang is not a part of the RoA series while Fallout 3 will pretend to be so of the Fallout seroes.

You obviously enjoy the DSA setting. So do I. Enjoy it more than any other P&P RPG, I stumbled on the RoA trilogy *because* I was playing DSA P&P. As a fan of DSA, I'm looking forward to Drakensang and work on the drakensang.net website, but if it were pretending to be a Realms of Arkania game, I would be scratching my head going "why call it Realms of Arkania if it has nothing to do with Realms of Arkania."

Same goes for Fallout. It's not about bad or good games, but as hordespawn points out, why pretend to be a fan and then just shrug when you're given an entirely different game under the name of the original game?

This and more soon to be discussed in the second part of NMA's article!

[Acleacius]

KazikluBey
"I would wager that there would be a whole lot of disappointment......"
That maybe true but doesn't NWN2 offer a perspcetive of Iso, my example?
So I am not sure how this applies, I just think offering people a choice of voew is better becase more people can be happy and no one will be disappointed.
Unless I am just misunderstanding you?

zakhal
"You cant judge bethsofts ability to make good scripted dialogue......"
Well we can all certianly hope your correct as I don't think anyone here wants F3 to fail, it's just the prospects look dim.

So if Redguard had great dialogue why wouldn't that be a proiority in a (any) RPG bethseda or anyone is making?
I am just not sure I can wrap my head around what Bethseda is thinking when they don't think dialogue is important.

[Moriendor]

And you suck by ignoring that Drakensang is not a part of the RoA series while Fallout 3 will pretend to be so of the Fallout seroes.

And you suck by ignoring that Fallout 3 has not officially been announced yet but that it is so far only a working title of Bethesda that they may or may not use for the final product.
"Drakensang" is just a name. It is effectively RoA 4. It doesn't really matter what it's called. Same with Fallout 3.
But thinking along those lines or admitting anything else would kill your hobby of Bethesda bashing and of being obsessed over a video game so feel free to continue ignoring any voices of reason.
I know that nothing in this world other than the resurrection of Troika and the reformation of the old FO team would make you guys come to your senses. Even then I doubt you'd be happy. You seem to be only happy if you can hate.
Well, what can I say? Everone's got to have a hobby. If yours is hating -fine- please enjoy yourselves.

[Briosafreak]

And you suck by ignoring that Fallout 3 has not officially been announced yet but that it is so far only a working title of Bethesda that they may or may not use for the final product.

Hmmm you do know that's the contract they signed with Interplay, to produce Fallout3 and with an option to Fallout4 and 5?

Bethesda Softworks® announced today that it will develop and publish Fallout 3 -- a sequel to the highly popular Fallout role-playing game franchise.

http://www.bethsoft.com/news/pressrelease_071004.htm

So, hmmmm, you really suck at this reality thing at a most profound level than I thought.

But thinking along those lines or admitting anything else would kill your hobby of Bethesda bashing and of being obsessed over a video game so feel free to continue ignoring any voices of reason.

Bethesda bashing? What? Ow I see now, a rabid Beth fanboy. Damn why did I wasted time with you anyway? And check the links I placed on the previous post, those are not Fallout fansites.

If yours is hating
You are the one with an irrational hatred for Fallout fans here, that is creating the parallel world where you live, spewing cliches while not contradicting any fact thrown at you, in the end coming with the Orwellian "Fallout fans are not fans".

You are pathetic, rabid and delusional, it must be hard to be you.

I won't continue with this Corwin and Dhruin, sorry for this waste of time.

[Cormac]

Ow I see now, a rabid Beth fanboy. Damn why did I wasted time with you anyway?

How long have you been waiting to pull that out of your ass ?

[Brother None]

And you suck by ignoring that Fallout 3 has not officially been announced yet but that it is so far only a working title of Bethesda that they may or may not use for the final product.

No, I bet they bought the license to call it "Wastes of Oblivion"?

Their contract entitles them to make "Fallout 3". Read it. Fallout. Three. Too difficult for ya?

"Drakensang" is just a name. It is effectively RoA 4. It doesn't really matter what it's called. Same with Fallout 3.

Nope. One of the developers has stated explicitely that they are not making a 4th Realms of Arkania, that it will not be related to the NorthLandTrilogy and that, guess what, it will be marketed inside germany as a DSA cRPG and outside Germany as a cRPG, not even using DSA in the title.

So *buzz*. Please get back to me when you actually have a clue what you're talking about.

You seem to be only happy if you can hate.
Well, what can I say? Everone's got to have a hobby. If yours is hating -fine- please enjoy yourselves.

Ours is hating? Please point out where this has a foundation in reality, considering our history with Tactics, Van Buren and the Fallout Bibles

[abbaon]

They've dropped the subtitle from the English language version?

[zakhal]

So if Redguard had great dialogue why wouldn't that be a proiority in a (any) RPG bethseda or anyone is making?
I am just not sure I can wrap my head around what Bethseda is thinking when they don't think dialogue is important.

Would you like to write dialogue for every NPC in Daggerfall? Also TES is not RPG in the traditional sense. Its more like fantasy FPS with RPG elements.

[Moriendor]

Hmmm you do know that's the contract they signed with Interplay, to produce Fallout3 and with an option to Fallout4 and 5?



http://www.bethsoft.com/news/pressrelease_071004.htm


There will be another press release in which they will announce the full title of the game, a tentative release date, a feature list and the platform(s) that the game is going to be released on. Mark my words and please spare a thought for me when that happens (not if because it will happen). Anyway, as I said, I'm not even doubting that they might name it Fallout 3 but it might also be something different. Point is: Why get your panties up in a bunch over a stupid name? Wait and see. Then judge.

Nope. One of the developers has stated explicitely that they are not making a 4th Realms of Arkania, that it will not be related to the NorthLandTrilogy and that, guess what, it will be marketed inside germany as a DSA cRPG and outside Germany as a cRPG, not even using DSA in the title.

So *buzz*. Please get back to me when you actually have a clue what you're talking about.

Yeah, I know most of that ("most" because I didn't know that they dropped 'The Dark Eye' from the title for the English version... you sure about that? I was pretty sure that they wanted to co-promote the P&P system with the game so it would make a lot of sense for them to keep/insist on the 'Dark Eye' label) but what is your point anyway? For the fans of the original games this is Realms of Arkania IV all the way. It doesn't matter to them that it's not set in the exact same region of Aventuria or that it's not part of the Northland trilogy (which naturally ended after three parts... d'oh) or that it's called Drakensang. This is the 4th DSA cRPG, thus DSA 4 for anyone who remembers the original series from 10+ years ago. Gaming mags (online and print) and many people are referring to the game as DSA 4 or the 4th DSA cRPG. The developers or their marketing people can yell 'This is not DSA/RoA 4' all day long. It doesn't make a difference.

Anyway, to get back to the point: In case of Drakensang there is no angry, hateful mob just waiting for Radon Labs to make a wrong move. If you check the German forums at Anaconda then you will find very friendly people who are discussing the game in a constructive matter. You will find people who -aside from a few old school dreamers- accept or even embrace the changes that their "DSA 4" is going to have (no 1st person view anymore, real-time with pause instead of turn-based combat etc). They are keeping an open mind and are waiting patiently for Radon Labs and dtp/Anaconda to publish more details.

And I'm sure that true Fallout "fans" are like that as well. As I said, you are not fans. You're unreasonable, obsessed haters. If you would be reasonable then you would accept that Fallout as you know it is dead and will never come back. And you'd move on. But instead you choose to get on the Internet and behave like hysterical little school girls. That's not normal behavior. Trust me.

[Brother None]

There will be another press release in which they will announce the full title of the game, a tentative release date, a feature list and the platform(s) that the game is going to be released on. Mark my words and please spare a thought for me when that happens (not if because it will happen). Anyway, as I said, I'm not even doubting that they might name it Fallout 3 but it might also be something different. Point is: Why get your panties up in a bunch over a stupid name? Wait and see. Then judge.

Bethesda's Fallout 3 will be announced in March. Mark those words.

As for "a stupid name"...Panties in a bunch is the wrong term. If they use a name, they create expectancy that they will live up to that name. They did not do that with Morrowind or Oblivion, they did not do so with Star Trek...should I "trust them" to do it with Fallout?

Yeah, I know most of that ("most" because I didn't know that they dropped 'The Dark Eye' from the title for the English version... you sure about that? I was pretty sure that they wanted to co-promote the P&P system with the game so it would make a lot of sense for them to keep/insist on the 'Dark Eye' label) but what is your point anyway?

Olli:
"The title is Drakensang: The Dark Eye, but in Non-German-speaking territories we will focus communication much more on "Drakensang" than on "TDE" because it's not such a strong license as it is in German-speaking territories."

For the fans of the original games this is Realms of Arkania IV all the way.

Maybe for those who didn't pay attention, like you. Those that did pay attention know the developers made no false promises that this would be like Realms of Arkania, they simply made it clear that they admire those games, but it's not what they intend to make. They won't abuse the Realms of Arkania name. They won't use its setting. They won't use its story.

You seem to be arguing that this is the same as making a Fallout 3 that has nothing to do with the original two. How does that work, exactly?

It doesn't make a difference.

Yes it does, because they're being honest. They're not lying. They're not pretending their game is something it's not.

They are keeping an open mind and are waiting patiently for Radon Labs and dtp/Anaconda to publish more details.

Kind of like the Fallout fans around Fallout 2. Kind of like the Fallout fans around Fallout Tactics. Kind of like the Fallout fans around Van Buren...

But now the Fallout fans are acting differently against Bethesda! Logically, with everything being equal, that must somehow be the fans' fault, not Bethesda!

Your logic is not just bent, it already broke.

Also, I think you're not reading the same German DSA forum as I'm reading. The one I'm reading had a very harsh and flame-filled argument around the firebreathing Tatzelworm. Don't pretend things aren't so when they are. What's next, are you going to say Star Trek fans are all happy with Bethesda's published Legacy and only Fallout fans are unreasonable?

As I said, you are not fans. You're unreasonable, obsessed haters. If you would be reasonable then you would accept that Fallout as you know it is dead and will never come back.

" Ours is hating? Please point out where this has a foundation in reality, considering our history with Tactics, Van Buren and the Fallout Bibles"

Ignoring what someone says and then just making the same argument is a form of weakness. If you don't actually have any foundation in reality as to our being "unreasonable, obsessed haters", then just admit you're wrong, but don't just keep repeating it when you know it's false. Did you read NMA's article? Did you click the refs to see what Fallout fans were saying? Did you see the interest in Van Buren? Did you see the excitement around Fallout Tactics?

In other words, back your statement up with facts, because I call your bullshit.

[Briosafreak]

This is too easy :)

[Moriendor]

Olli:
"The title is Drakensang: The Dark Eye, but in Non-German-speaking territories we will focus communication much more on "Drakensang" than on "TDE" because it's not such a strong license as it is in German-speaking territories."

You forgot to add "pwned". Oh wait. No, you didn't. When did "focus... much more on" become synonymous with a title change or with dropping the 'The Dark Eye' label? Bethesda might have focused on marketing The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion as merely 'Oblivion' but the full title is still The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. Same with Drakensang because the official (English) forums still refer to it as Drakensang: The Dark Eye and no title change has been officially announced.

Maybe for those who didn't pay attention, like you. Those that did pay attention know the developers made no false promises that this would be like Realms of Arkania

Was I doubting that anywhere? All I said was that for the fans of the original series this is DSA 4 all the way. How can that be wrong if even the official site says "DSA ist zurück!" (in English: DSA is back!)? Or why do they (Radon Labs) keep emphasizing at the (German) forums that they are all huge fans of DSA P&P and the CRPGs? Oh, right. Because they absolutely want to avoid that people think of Drakensang as a sequel to previous DSA games. Ho-hummm....

BTW, since you are so anal with names (are you a lawyer in RL or something... jeez ;) ), I'm intentionally avoiding "Realms of Arkania" now because I'm slowly getting the impression that you do not know that "Realms of Arkania" does not exist in Germany. At all. In Germany it's just DSA - Das Schwarze Auge. We know of no "Realms of Arkania". I was just using RoA earlier so outside people know which game(s) we are talking about. Trust me. Any fan of the original German DSA CRPGs will immediately think 'Yay, DSA 4 is being made' when they hear of Drakensang.

You seem to be arguing that this is the same as making a Fallout 3 that has nothing to do with the original two. How does that work, exactly?

There are many sequels that had absolutely nothing to do with the previous games in a series. If you want a rather drastic example I'd mention Quake 3 which all of a sudden was MP only as opposed to Quake 1 + 2 which had a (by some FPS fans even considered as strong) single player mode. Just because the game's name is Fallout 3 doesn't mean it has to have the feature set of the previous two games. Not even close. Is that really that hard to understand? *sigh*

Yes it does, because they're being honest. They're not lying. They're not pretending their game is something it's not.

Oh, so you have inside info on Fallout 3's feature set? You already know that Bethesda is not honest and that they are lying and pretending that Fallout 3 is something else than it really is? Interesting.

Also, I think you're not reading the same German DSA forum as I'm reading. The one I'm reading had a very harsh and flame-filled argument around the firebreathing Tatzelworm.

Ummm... are you German and if so are you sure your reading comprehension is fully in order? :)
I just went the extra mile and actually checked out that thread (must be this one here (http://www.anaconda-game.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4142&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20) right?) and the worst "flames" that I could find were from someone calling the Tatzelwurm a "sausage with legs" :biggrin: and another guy said that it looks like a little kid drew a sketch of a dinosaur. OMG! How offensive! Especially in comparison to those constructive, troll- and flame-free threads one can read on the Codex forums. Holy shit, man! Someone call the German police and shut down the Anaconda forums ASAP!!!

Don't pretend things aren't so when they are. What's next, are you going to say Star Trek fans are all happy with Bethesda's published Legacy and only Fallout fans are unreasonable?

What does that have to do with anything I said? I actually said that you can bitch and moan as much as you like if the game should really turn out to be crap. But until then, yeah, I will keep calling everyone a hysterical little school girl who has their panties up in a bunch over... over... ummm... what?... right... NOTHING. Because just about nothing is known about Fallout 3 yet.

Ignoring what someone says and then just making the same argument is a form of weakness. If you don't actually have any foundation in reality as to our being "unreasonable, obsessed haters", then just admit you're wrong, but don't just keep repeating it when you know it's false. Did you read NMA's article? Did you click the refs to see what Fallout fans were saying? Did you see the interest in Van Buren? Did you see the excitement around Fallout Tactics?

I did read the article. Yes. The existence of the article alone speaks volumes of the self-importance that the Fallout community is for some weird reason giving itself. But we've been through all that on page 1 or 2 of this thread already so I'm not going to repeat it. Otherwise, I don't care enough about the Fallout franchise to do a lot of reading on it. Who cares? Doesn't change the fact that the hating and the hystery is plain retarded. No other gaming community behaves like that. At least not with this level of persistence. Single, isolated issues sometimes drive some gaming communities up the tree. But you're up on the tree all the time.

[Acleacius]

zakhal
"Would you like to write dialogue for every NPC in Daggerfall?"
Are you inviting me to the team to be lead witer? Weeee! ;)

"TES is not RPG in the traditional sense. Its more like fantasy FPS with RPG elements."
Not that I am disagreeing but wouldn't bethseda disagree, wasn't/isn't TES marketed as an RPG?
So since RPGs are based on Dialogue either they are lying or they make bad RPGs, right? ;)

[zakhal]

zakhal
"Would you like to write dialogue for every NPC in Daggerfall?"
Are you inviting me to the team to be lead witer? Weeee! ;)

Well theres tens of thousands of NPCs and you have to write dialogue for every one of them, make cross referances (event A changes person B,C,D,E,G,H dialogue to state 3A) and full testing. ;)

"TES is not RPG in the traditional sense. Its more like fantasy FPS with RPG elements."
Not that I am disagreeing but wouldn't bethseda disagree, wasn't/isn't TES marketed as an RPG?
So since RPGs are based on Dialogue either they are lying or they make bad RPGs, right? ;)

I dont understand the question? Are you saying that TES doesnt have dialogue?

[Brother None]

You forgot to add "pwned". Oh wait. No, you didn't. When did "focus... much more on" become synonymous with a title change or with dropping the 'The Dark Eye' label? Bethesda might have focused on marketing The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion as merely 'Oblivion' but the full title is still The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. Same with Drakensang because the official (English) forums still refer to it as Drakensang: The Dark Eye and no title change has been officially announced.

I had forgotten they'll still call it DSA, even if not promote it as such. My bad on that count.

That said, you do realise DSA/The Dark Eye as an intellectual bit of RPG property is not the same as being a part of a gaming franchise like Realms of Arkania/NLT/"the old DSA gameS"? Or do you refer to NWN 2 as BG 3? Do you think all D&D games are part of one big line of sequels? If another D&D cRPG game is announced with "D&D is back" do you call it NWN 3? No? Then why apply that rule to DSA?

Also, stop saying "the fans are thinking". That's not relevant to the question of how honest the developers are. Its not up to the developer or publisher to determine fan perspective, if people want to delude themselves into thinking this is another NLT-esque game...well...so be it.


Just because the game's name is Fallout 3 doesn't mean it has to have the feature set of the previous two games.

"Does not" in what sense? A legalist sense? Of course not. The sense in which using a name entitles people to expect certain features in a game? Duh. To use a comparison SOON FEATURED IN AN EXCITING ARTICLE, if I order a burder McDonalds, I don't expect to get chicken, not even if KFC bought the franchise.

Oh, so you have inside info on Fallout 3's feature set? You already know that Bethesda is not honest and that they are lying and pretending that Fallout 3 is something else than it really is? Interesting.

Was I talking about Bethesda? Nice mouthstuffing. We were talking about a hypothetical Fallout 3, something you started with "it's only a name". Don't try to dodge in another direction now.

OMG! How offensive!

So instead that thread is your idea of "They are keeping an open mind and are waiting patiently for Radon Labs and dtp/Anaconda to publish more details."?

Ok then.

But until then, yeah, I will keep calling everyone a hysterical little school girl who has their panties up in a bunch over... over... ummm... what?... right... NOTHING. Because just about nothing is known about Fallout 3 yet.

Ok. Does that mean you give me explicit information to rag on Bethesda once Fallout 3 reveals not to have a number of key Fallout features and do you hereby relinquish your right to comment on said ragging?

The existence of the article alone speaks volumes of the self-importance that the Fallout community is for some weird reason giving itself.

And the attention you're giving us works very self-confirming, thank you for caring.

Doesn't change the fact that the hating and the hystery is plain retarded. No other gaming community behaves like that. At least not with this level of persistence. Single, isolated issues sometimes drive some gaming communities up the tree. But you're up on the tree all the time.

*sighs* Frith give me patience.

I quote myself for a second time:
" Ours is hating? Please point out where this has a foundation in reality, considering our history with Tactics, Van Buren and the Fallout Bibles"

Your reply every time is to repeat that we're hateful and hysterical. Not a single time have you backed this up with facts. I have yet to see you explain why the reaction to Bethesda is a big exception in the way the Fallout fans usually interact with the fans. Where's the "up on the tree all the time" with Tactics? Van Buren? Fallout Bibles?

But please do reply by just saying we're hysterical again. I'm sure *this time* it'll prove you right.

[abbaon]

"Does not" in what sense? A legalist sense? Of course not. The sense in which using a name entitles people to expect certain features in a game? Duh. To use a comparison SOON FEATURED IN AN EXCITING ARTICLE, if I order a burder McDonalds, I don't expect to get chicken, not even if KFC bought the franchise.
The Fallout setting isn't the Forgotten Realms. It's entirely appropriate of Bethsoft to name the setting in the title, as Radon's done, as SSI did with the Ravenloft and Dark Sun games, and BIS did with Torment, and so on. And the Fallout setting and Fallout series share a name, so Bethsoft couldn't have called it anything else. The only argument is over the subtitle: whether "Fallout 3" or "Fallout: Oblivion with Guns" would be most appropriate. And I can imagine how that might animate an NMA regular, but can you see how someone else might shrug over the difference?

[Brother None]

The Fallout setting isn't the Forgotten Realms. It's entirely appropriate of Bethsoft to name the setting in the title

(...)

And I can imagine how that might animate an NMA regular, but can you see how someone else might shrug over the difference?

I think you're kind of missing the point here, because "Fallout" isn't a setting at all, it's a franchise. This isn't about "approriate" or "rights", this is about creating expectancies. If they call it Fallout: Oblivion with Guns, I'd applaud their honesty (if that was then what people would get), but the truth remains that using the name "Fallout" creates a set of expectations than are anemic of Oblivion with Guns.

[Acleacius]

zakhal
"Well theres tens of thousands of NPCs and you have to write dialogue for every one of them,"
Yeah but I would be working for besthseda so I could get 1 voice actor and wirte the same lines for all 10k NPCs, since well written dialogue and quality voice acting doesn't matter, could wirte half-assed and Ooooh I just though of something I could do the voice and save even more money. ;)

" Are you saying that TES doesnt have dialogue?"
Well sort of, this little topic started as a discussion about the quality of dialogue with Redguard veruses TES and I thought it looped around nicely to the starting premise.
So my conclusion was since they didn't care about dialogue, either they are lying (about oblivion being an RPG) or they make bad RPGs. ;)

They can't have it both ways right, since afaik RPGs are based on dialogue?

So basicly even if Redguard was a good story and dialogue, the people are still at bethseda cappable of writing a good RPG after 10 years, how or why would they not care about their own franise to give it a good story (remember they marketed it as an RPG) but all of a sudden care about someone else's franchise more/enough to give it a good story,

I mean have they come out and said we are making a Fallout RPG and if so how do we as gamers distinguish between the so called RPG (oblivion) and your selection Redguard RPG?

Of course I could have misunderstood. :)

[abbaon]

I think you're kind of missing the point here, because "Fallout" isn't a setting at all, it's a franchise. This isn't about "approriate" or "rights", this is about creating expectancies. If they call it Fallout: Oblivion with Guns, I'd applaud their honesty (if that was then what people would get), but the truth remains that using the name "Fallout" creates a set of expectations than are anemic of Oblivion with Guns.
Expectations which you're defining exactly as broadly as your argument requires. Yes, the Fallout name carries several connotations, like a setting, mood, perspective, genre, and game flow system. But while I can think of counterexamples like the Wizardry and Might & Magic franchises, which broke with previous fiction repeatedly, the most common convention for CRPG franchises is that the broader collective title refers to the setting. It's certainly true of the Fallout franchise. The only thing the Fallout games to date have in common is that they all employ the Fallout setting. Bethsoft's following that tradition, so we're left to quibble over FO3 v FO:OwG.

[zakhal]

Well sort of, this little topic started as a discussion about the quality of dialogue with Redguard veruses TES and I thought it looped around nicely to the starting premise.
So my conclusion was since they didn't care about dialogue, either they are lying (about oblivion being an RPG) or they make bad RPGs. ;)

They can't have it both ways right, since afaik RPGs are based on dialogue?

You dont seem to understand the difference between static (full scripted) and dynamic (minimal scripting) dialogue. Bethesda has always pushed for dynamic dialogue in TES so that every NPC has somthing to say.

So in essence TES does have dialogue. Its just not fully handwritten like in normal RPGs.


So basicly even if Redguard was a good story and dialogue, the people are still at bethseda cappable of writing a good RPG after 10 years, how or why would they not care about their own franise to give it a good story (remember they marketed it as an RPG) but all of a sudden care about someone else's franchise more/enough to give it a good story,

Because fallout is not part of the TES series.

P.S It spelled Bethesda not bethseda. Redguard is an adventure game not RPG and it was released 8 years ago not 10.


Of course I could have misunderstood. :)

Or then you are just wasting my time with trolling.

[bjon045]

I would start complaining once they start actually releasing screenshots or revealing the inner workings of the game, before then you just sound like a pack of rabid dogs that should be put out of their misery.

[Moriendor]

So instead that thread is your idea of "They are keeping an open mind and are waiting patiently for Radon Labs and dtp/Anaconda to publish more details."?

Ok then.


Yes. That thread went "off-topic" very quickly as hardcore P&Pers began to discuss the role of the Tatzelwurm in the P&P setting. As you will know, no two P&P game masters are ever the same and everyone will have their own views and definitions etc.
Besides, it's just one tiny little gameplay detail. It was discussed and out of three pages and a few dozen posts 3 or 4 people expressed some minor concerns mostly over the visual representation of the Tatzelwurm. No big deal.

Ok. Does that mean you give me explicit information to rag on Bethesda once Fallout 3 reveals not to have a number of key Fallout features and do you hereby relinquish your right to comment on said ragging?

Yes, please do. For my entertainment :biggrin: . Seriously, after all of this, I'm at the same point as that other guy who posted earlier that he was gonna have a little celebration when Bethesda reveals things that will royally piss of the Fallout community. I'm right there with him. If they announce it for every single console including the Wii and that it has real-time combat and that enemy encounters plus loot is going to be scaled according to the player's level and that the dialogue mini game from Oblivion will be transferred over etc, you can rest assured that I will not just grab some popcorn and beer but more like pop some of the finest Veuve Clicquot champagne plus caviar and then I'm going to have a major rolling on the floor laughing my ass off session as I watch the drama unfold... should be fun :biggrin: .

And the attention you're giving us works very self-confirming, thank you for caring.

No prob. I'll PM you my PayPal details :) .

*sighs* Frith give me patience.

I quote myself for a second time:
" Ours is hating? Please point out where this has a foundation in reality, considering our history with Tactics, Van Buren and the Fallout Bibles"

Your reply every time is to repeat that we're hateful and hysterical. Not a single time have you backed this up with facts. I have yet to see you explain why the reaction to Bethesda is a big exception in the way the Fallout fans usually interact with the fans. Where's the "up on the tree all the time" with Tactics? Van Buren? Fallout Bibles?

Where that has a foundation in reality? Back it up with facts? Where's the "up on the tree all the time"? Are you kidding? I don't know what the character limit is for posts on this forum here but I'm sure I could quite easily bust it if I were to waste my time and dig up all the hate talk threads from the Codex and NMA forums. Gallons of spit must have been wiped off monitors worldwide during the course of the anti-Bethesda/anti-FO3 crusade. Well, and to hold contests who can get banned from the ESF forums quicker than someone else is about as retarded and childish as it gets. You can't deny that this is happening.

But please do reply by just saying we're hysterical again. I'm sure *this time* it'll prove you right.

You're hysterical. I win teh intahnet!!11 :biggrin:

[zakhal]

I would start complaining once they start actually releasing screenshots or revealing the inner workings of the game, before then you just sound like a pack of rabid dogs that should be put out of their misery.

Well said.

[Brother None]

I don't know what the character limit is for posts on this forum here but I'm sure I could quite easily bust it if I were to waste my time and dig up all the hate talk threads from the Codex and NMA forums. Gallons of spit must have been wiped off monitors worldwide during the course of the anti-Bethesda/anti-FO3 crusade. Well, and to hold contests who can get banned from the ESF forums quicker than someone else is about as retarded and childish as it gets. You can't deny that this is happening.

Yes, the reaction to Bethesda was pretty intense.

To Bethesda. Not to Fallout 2. Not to Tactics. Not to Van Buren. So where is the "up the tree all the time", the drivel and irrationality? We've supported every game in the series so far, we made Tactics a smash hit in pre-orders before it was released and sucked. Brotherhood of Steel was the first exception in which we did *not* support a game beforehand, and that was simulanteous with us supporting Van Buren heavily, though with criticism.

Bethesda is the second exception. Not the rule. If the modus operandus of the Fallout fanbase is to be critical, but heavily interested in a game, as has *always* been the case, but this is not so in this case...why do you blame the fanbase? With all things equal, Occam's Razor dictates that if the developer is the only thing that changed it is the developer's fault that the attitude changed.

QED.

Well said.

Are you people paying attention? The article is not about being angry with Bethesda, it's about the way the fans are treated, the way fans treat others and what choices are open to Bethesda and what consequences said choices will have.

Abbaon: your point is an awkwardly good one, damn you. That's a matter of perspective, though, and I don't think Tactics, which was clearly presented as a spinoff, and Brotherhood of Steel, which was a failure, deconstructed the franchise so much that only the setting remains as a key element. Fallout is still an RPG franchise, especially if you present a point in the series as such...I'll assume Bethesda will call it an RPG, I hope you guys won't shout "wait and see!" at that

[Briosafreak]

I would start complaining once they start actually releasing screenshots or revealing the inner workings of the game, before then you just sound like a pack of rabid dogs that should be put out of their misery.

This is the second time someone advocates the physical extinction of Fallout fans in this topic. Who's rabid now?...

And have you noticed how many pages this topic has? I thought you Fallout haters didn't care? :)

The second article is out! (http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=34629)

[Superguest]

They seem to be most fixated on the baser side of the game as well.
Yeah, they're totally fixated on those base aspects like dialogue and consequences, rather than appreciating the more sophisticated elements of gore and sexual humour. LOL prostitutes! Me laugh you long time!


All I said was that for the fans of the original series this is DSA 4 all the way.
As a fan of the original series, I find your comment interesting. Not true, but interesting that you'd go and make such an stupid assertion.

Trust me. Any fan of the original German DSA CRPGs will immediately think 'Yay, DSA 4 is being made' when they hear of Drakensang.
Admittedly, that IS what I thought when I first heard about it - until I read some developers' posts on the official forums.

[Corwin]

Thanks for the link, I've posted it to the main news page!!

[abbaon]

And have you noticed how many pages this topic has? I thought you Fallout haters didn't care? :)
Five pages, with only the most tenuous connection to the topic. There's a reason why every other post from you guys has been, "Did you read the article? Why aren't you talking about the article? I worked on this dinner for hours and you've barely touched it! :'("

[zioburosky13]

The reason why we Fallout fans are so worry because this kinda thing can happen to any game. It's like id software's next Doom is an adventure game rather than a FPS...you get the idea.

"To me, clear it is, that NMA basically wants the same gameplay as in FO1 and FO2.
Maybe they will agree to updated graphics, and the use of a PhysX engine in the game, but they still want their turnbased combat and the other things in FO1 and FO2. However, this isn't a realistic approach in today's competetive market."
Civilization series... even the latest is a turn-based and it's a market success...So is Space Rangers 2: Rise of the Dominators

[Acleacius]

zakhal
"You don’t seem to understand the difference between static (full scripted) and dynamic (minimal scripting) dialogue"
Or I do understand the difference and don't have any reason to accept low quality of writing whether it's intended as static or dynamic in oblivion (tes) qualifies it as an RPG or this in anyway provides hope bethesda is qualified to write an RPG. :)
Plus an action or adventure game can have that level of dialogue which doesn't qualify them as an RPGs.

Your position afai can tell, assumes they have (still?) or intend to hire static dialogue scripters for a franchise, not of their own creation and sell it as an RPG which is exactly how they tried to market oblivion, remember Radiant AI?

The crappy quality of writing for the most part in oblivion (static or dynamic, not sure why this matters but I will go along) or the higher quality of many years ago in Redguard (in your words);
Yet you are basing this on their accomplishment many years ago and not to mention often times, at least in regards to oblivion was inane, repetitive and a very low quality, hence again my question.
How can we as gamers know which kind of RPG Fallout will be?

Personally I don't see how we can know since we clearly can't count on bethesda , afai can tell, if they are conscously choosing to have the lowest quality writing (for the most part) and then pretend it's an RPG.

"Its just not fully handwritten like in normal RPGs."
Cause it's not an RPG. :)

"Because fallout is not part of the TES series."
That doesn't answer the question, we all know fallout isn't part or tes (yet? :p ) which is why I asked what makes them care about fallout to enough to give it a real dialogue as in a RPG over their own series because as I mentioned tes was marketed as an RPG, remember Radiant AI?

"P.S It spelled Bethesda not bethseda"
Thank you.

"Redguard is an adventure game not RPG"
We were talking about the quality of writing for an RPG, but even if you bring up an adventure game it should still be given consideration, well imo anyway.

"it was released 8 years ago not 10."
Errrr ok, thanks.
I am not sure how this matters in our conversation or in RL as I have and quite likely never meet a situation where the exact time frame will be pertinent.
As a matter of fact I even hit the 80% range which normally would disqualify me from a firing squad. :)
Btw if your really care or are intrested, it was Nov 1998, which means it's 8 years till Nov 2007, so aren't you the one mistaken?
http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/elder-scrolls-adventures-redguard

"Or then you are just wasting my time with trolling."
Right, suggesting I could be misunderstanding you or your position highly qualifies me as a troll or actively trolling. :p

I am getting the impression you don't feel the point is relevent any more. ;)

[bjon045]

This is the second time someone advocates the physical extinction of Fallout fans in this topic. Who's rabid now?...

No, I said Rabid dogs(ala wasteland) should be put out of their misery, if you are agreeing that you are a rabid dog then we have reached an agreement. :)

I am just as likely to be doing the same as you when in a few months Beth soft actually starts releasing design information etc. I will be absolutely gutted if I find it actually is "Oblivion with guns".

[Acleacius]

zakhal
My mistake on the Redguard time line, since I am actually awake now. :)
You meant I said 10 years, though I didnt go back and check if I did obviously you are correct. :)

I couldn't edit and use any more emotes, doh!

[zakhal]

Your position afai can tell, assumes they have (still?) or intend to hire static dialogue scripters for a franchise, not of their own creation and sell it as an RPG which is exactly how they tried to market oblivion, remember Radiant AI?

"Because fallout is not part of the TES series."
That doesn't answer the question, we all know fallout isn't part or tes (yet? :p ) which is why I asked what makes them care about fallout to enough to give it a real dialogue as in a RPG over their own series because as I mentioned tes was marketed as an RPG, remember Radiant AI?


Check these bethesda comments I happened to found:

"Outside of the obvious flavor and setting, the number one thing is stronger characters. Fallout really set the standard for me on believable people, good dialogue, and character choice and consequence. With Elder Scrolls, we do aim for something enormous, and we simply can't focus on say - 20 to 40 really deep strong characters and just do them. With Oblivion, we're doing a much better job than we've done before, but the scale of game is so different that without sacrificing some of what makes The Elder Scrolls what it is, I don't think we'd be able to have the same level of characterization in NPCs Fallout did. So with Fallout 3, that's something we want to do well, a limited number of super-deep NPCs."

"Anyway, Fallout 3 will be very, very different from Oblivion (or any other TES game). It won't be "Morrowind with guns". It won't even be "Oblivion with guns".

[Acleacius]

Noooo, this can't be true as it might require me to say something nice about bethesda, damn you zakhal! :biggrin: