Spoony U7 Review

[TheMadGamer]

Just in case you missed it, Spoony reviewed U7 (http://spoonyexperiment.com/2011/02/01/ultima-7-the-black-gate-review/). Saw this posted at Rpgcodex.

[Corwin]

Took him long enough!! :)

[JemyM]

Ultima Underworld 1 (http://spoonyexperiment.com/2011/03/25/ultima-underworld-the-stygian-abyss/) and Ultima Underworld 2 (http://spoonyexperiment.com/2011/03/26/ultima-underworld-2-labyrinth-of-worlds/) is now posted too.

[TheMadGamer]

Yep watched those a few days ago. Not sure why this newsbit isn't reported here on the watch.

[JDR13]

If there's one game I absolutely regret not having played, it's Ultima VII.

[TheMadGamer]

If there's one game I absolutely regret not having played, it's Ultima VII.

Why not play it now? It's easy enough to ebay a copy (http://cgi.ebay.com/Complete-Ultima-VII-7-w-3-Expansion-PC-CD-Box-/160566831625?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item2562876a09) and then play it in Dosbox (http://www.dosbox.com/) or use Exult (http://exult.sourceforge.net/).

[GothicGothicness]

Fantastic game... probably the best RPG ever. You ought to play it.

[JDR13]

Why not play it now? It's easy enough to ebay a copy (http://cgi.ebay.com/Complete-Ultima-VII-7-w-3-Expansion-PC-CD-Box-/160566831625?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item2562876a09) and then play it in Dosbox (http://www.dosbox.com/) or use Exult (http://exult.sourceforge.net/).

Actually, I have a copy of the Ultima Collection that includes I-VIII+Akalabeth.

I just tried installing U7 on Win7 64bit, but it refuses to even begin the installation process. I'll try it later on my WinXP partition after a reboot.

Do you think someone who has never played Ultima 5 or 6 will still find 7 as enjoyable? The only Ultima I completely played through was Ultima III: Exodus, and that was 15 years ago.

[pibbur]

Instructions for installing U7 can be found here: http://exult.sourceforge.net/docs.php#cdrom_install, which should cover Win7 (I haven't tried it, though)

I quote: "Ultima Collection
From the CD just copy the folders Serpent and Ultima7 to C:\Exult. Don't bother with the Ultima Collection installer. Both games come with the add-ons included."

U7 is the start of a new trilogy, involving the guardian. Not having played U5,U6 won't affect your fun (except for a few in game jokes).

I agree with GG, althoug I have it at pos. 2 on my all-time-great-RPG list, after PS:T.

[blatantninja]

Actually, I have a copy of the Ultima Collection that includes I-VIII+Akalabeth.

I just tried installing U7 on Win7 64bit, but it refuses to even begin the installation process. I'll try it later on my WinXP partition after a reboot.

Yeah, you'll have to run it through DosBox or using Exult.

Do you think someone who has never played Ultima 5 or 6 will still find 7 as enjoyable? The only Ultima I completely played through was Ultima III: Exodus, and that was 15 years ago.

Absolutely. So long as you can enjoy an older game (256 color graphics that are a little blocky, less sophisticated AI, etc.), its a phenomenal game and while the stories of each game do build on one another, they each are constructed such that you can go into them not knowing anything at all.

Instructions for installing U7 can be found here: http://exult.sourceforge.net/docs.php#cdrom_install, which should cover Win7 (I haven't tried it, though)

I quote: "Ultima Collection
From the CD just copy the folders Serpent and Ultima7 to C:\Exult. Don't bother with the Ultima Collection installer. Both games come with the add-ons included."

U7 is the start of a new trilogy, involving the guardian. Not having played U5,U6 won't affect your fun (except for a few in game jokes).

I agree with GG, althoug I have it at pos. 2 on my all-time-great-RPG list, after PS:T.

I have to say that U7 was knocked down a spot by BG2. Never thought it would happen, but BG2 really blew me away.

[TheMadGamer]

Do you think someone who has never played Ultima 5 or 6 will still find 7 as enjoyable? The only Ultima I completely played through was Ultima III: Exodus, and that was 15 years ago.

If you liked U3 you will like U7.

U3 still used the turn based fighting system in which your view during combat 'zoomed in' to a tactical field. This was one of U7's biggest criticisms because U7's combat, spells, and charactrer stats were considered 'weak' (not terrible, just weaker) in this installment.

One other aspect of gameplay is considered annoying by many is the inventory management. It is a bit cumbersome by today's standards. And you have to manage your inventory quite a lot. It's funny though because back in the day when U7 was released, I thought the inventory system was so awesome... but these many years later I must admit that having to fiddle with the inventory items as much as you need to does get a bit tiring.

However, U7 is generally considered the best in series in all other aspects of gameplay. IMO U7's world simulation still remains unmatched to this day. There is a lot of object interaction, world exploration is Gothic-style (meaning that you can go pretty much wherever you want as long as you are strong enough to beat down enemies), lot's of nooks and crannies to discover many times with useful rewards, and a pretty decent story and writing to boot.

I get lost in U7 everytime I play it.

[blatantninja]

If you liked U3 you will like U7.

U3 still used the turn based fighting system in which your view during combat 'zoomed in' to a tactical field. This was one of U7's biggest criticisms because U7's combat, spells, and charactrer stats were considered 'weak' (not terrible, just weaker) in this installment.

One other aspect of gameplay is considered annoying by many is the inventory management. It is a bit cumbersome by today's standards. And you have to manage your inventory quite a lot. It's funny though because back in the day when U7 was released, I thought the inventory system was so awesome… but these many years later I must admit that having to fiddle with the inventory items as much as you need to does get a bit tiring.

However, U7 is generally considered the best in series in all other aspects of gameplay. IMO U7's world simulation still remains unmatched to this day. There is a lot of object interaction, world exploration is Gothic-style (meaning that you can go pretty much wherever you want as long as you are strong enough to beat down enemies), lot's of nooks and crannies to discover many times with useful rewards, and a pretty decent story and writing to boot.

I get lost in U7 everytime I play it.


yeah the inventory thing that killed me was all the keys. In Serpent Isle they introduced a key ring IIRC that made life a hell of a lot easier. I believe in Exult that feature was ported back to U7 as well.

[JDR13]

Well I got it installed and played around with it a bit this morning.

Performance is terrible on Windows 7. It took me awhile just to find a graphics mode that wasn't a slideshow. I'm also still trying to figure out the best way to configure the MIDI for my soundcard (SoundBlaster X-fi) because it sounds horrible.
I'm gonna install it on WinXP later and see if I get a better result.

I see what you guys mean about the inventory. I find it especially annoying because of the "floaty" mouse movement I'm getting in Exult. It's hard to pinpoint smaller items with the cursor, and sometimes I have to click 2 or 3 times to get a result.

[blatantninja]

Well I got it installed and played around with it a bit this morning.

Performance is terrible on Windows 7. It took me awhile just to find a graphics mode that wasn't a slideshow. I'm also still trying to figure out the best way to configure the MIDI for my soundcard (SoundBlaster X-fi) because it sounds horrible.
I'm gonna install it on WinXP later and see if I get a better result.

I see what you guys mean about the inventory. I find it especially annoying because of the "floaty" mouse movement I'm getting in Exult. It's hard to pinpoint smaller items with the cursor, and sometimes I have to click 2 or 3 times to get a result.

I don't remember having the floaty issue with Exult, but it's been a few years. Did you try running it in XP compatibility mode? Might clear up some of those issues.

[JDR13]

I don't remember having the floaty issue with Exult, but it's been a few years. Did you try running it in XP compatibility mode? Might clear up some of those issues.

Thanks, that seems to have fixed my sound issues.

I have it running pretty good now after playing with the video options some more. I'm running it fullscreen @1024x768 with a x2 scaler setting. I can run it @1280x1024, but that pulls the camera too high imo.

I explored the starting town, and got to the point where the mayor, or whatever he is, started asking me some questions that I assume are for copy protection. Anyways, I love the old-school dialogue system, as well as how interactive the game world is. This is definitely going on my list for a full playthrough in the future.

[blatantninja]

Glad you got it working! One quick thing though. I remember reading that if you have the resolution too high, it can kind of break the game. The reason is that you can see into areas (and thus click on them or cast a spell on them) that you wouldn't be able to see with the default resolution. Easiest solution is just that if you can't get to something and it is on the border of the screen, leave it alone!

I think I used the x3 scaler when I played it last. I really need to play through again. And Serpent Isle. I think I even liked Serpent Isle more than VII!

[TheMadGamer]

Glad you got it working JDR13, I'm sure you will enjoy the old-school goodness.

[JDR13]

Any way to show where you're at on the in-game map of Britannia, or do you pretty much just have to find your way around?

[blatantninja]

Any way to show where you're at on the in-game map of Britannia, or do you pretty much just have to find your way around?

You need to find a sextant. Then it will show your location on the map.

[JDR13]

You need to find a sextant. Then it will show your location on the map.

That is too cool.. :)


*runs off to find sextant*

[blatantninja]

That is too cool.. :)


*runs off to find sextant*

Those games were full of all sorts of cool stuff, that you never have to do in modern games, so people don't think about it when they go back and play them. You have to think 'how would I do this in the real world' a lot. I'll put a few more that you might not realize in a spoiler tag:

You can stack things and climb up on them. So for instance, you can take some crates and make a staircase out of them. There are a couple places I think you HAVE to do this to get an item.

You can do things like take ingredients and bake them or churn butter to get food.

[TheMadGamer]

Some fun tips...

Food
The only food item I carry is mutton. You can buy these at the farmer's market in the city of Britain. Mutton are the most filling food for your party and buys you the most time between feedings.

Inventory
Take time to organize who will carry what. Doing this will save you a lot of time over the course of the game because you will know who's inventory to go to for certain items. For example, Iolo usually carries all the food.

Flying Carpet
Find the flying carpet early on. You can find it at the entrance to a dungeon NW of the city of Britain.

Ship
Buy a ship if for nothing else as a great place to store items using the ship's hold. If you have the Forge of Virtue expansion, you don't even need to buy a ship, just talk to Lord British to get the deed to the ship parked off of Vesper.

Flying Carpet
You can carry crates on the flying carpet

Gambling
When gambling in the Rat Race in Buc's Den, place bets on every rat in equal amounts, you always win more than you bet.

[JDR13]

How can you tell what weapons and armor are the most effective, since they don't seem to have any stats? Also, is there really any strategy to combat in this game?

Items dropped in the gameworld will stay where you dropped them indefinitely, right?

[Rithrandil]

I'm gonna have to get this and try it out. I remember playing the earlier games but I was kneehigh to a grasshopper back then.

[blatantninja]

How can you tell what weapons and armor are the most effective, since they don't seem to have any stats?

http://mikesrpgcenter.com/ultima7a/weapons.html

Also, is there really any strategy to combat in this game?

Not really. I usually had my tanks up front bashing stuff and the weaker guys in the back using bows or crossbows. Once you get the magic working a bit again, you can start using spells to add some tactics, but generally it's more just brute force attack. Tactics are NOT a big part of any Ultima.

Items dropped in the gameworld will stay where you dropped them indefinitely, right?

Theoretically yes, but IIRC, there were some problems with them disappearing in Exult. If they are in a container, they are usually safe. Of course, unless you keep a real world notebook, since you can't add pins to the map, you're probably going to forget where you drop stuff!


Man, thinking about this is REALLY making me want to fire it up this weekend! And I still am trying to get into Arcanum! Guess my wife's new kitchen faucet is going to have to wait another week! :)

[JDR13]

Not really. I usually had my tanks up front bashing stuff and the weaker guys in the back using bows or crossbows. Once you get the magic working a bit again, you can start using spells to add some tactics, but generally it's more just brute force attack. Tactics are NOT a big part of any Ultima.

I can't even figure out how to seperate the tanks from the ranged guys. Lolo and Spark make no effort to hang back despite being equipped with ranged weapons. I switch to combat mode and my party just seems to go apeshit. :)



Man, thinking about this is REALLY making me want to fire it up this weekend! And I still am trying to get into Arcanum! Guess my wife's new kitchen faucet is going to have to wait another week! :)

Yeah, I'm really trying not to get too involved with another game right now. I'm going to Florida for a week next Tuesday, and I plan on starting a replay of The Witcher when I get back.

[blatantninja]

I can't even figure out how to seperate the tanks from the ranged guys. Lolo and Spark make no effort to hang back despite being equipped with ranged weapons. I switch to combat mode and my party just seems to go apeshit. :)


On the paperdoll screen, the second icon on the bottom left toggles how they fight. There are a few different modes such as attack nearest, attack weakest, etc. I'm not sure it helps THAT much, but it helps.

Found this site about the interface:

http://lparchive.org/Ultima-VII-The-Black-Gate/Update%202/

[JDR13]

Thanks. I also found a link to the original manuals here (http://bootstrike.com/Ultima7bg/manuals.html).

Follow the "Player's Documentation" link, and check out the u7bgref.pdf file.

[blatantninja]

Nice!

Of course, I still have my original paper ones! And all the cloth maps (except V. Sent that to my brother with Lazarus and the bastard still hasn't given it back!)

[pibbur]

Nice!

Of course, I still have my original paper ones! And all the cloth maps (except V. Sent that to my brother with Lazarus and the bastard still hasn't given it back!)

You could try that military school stunt on him. (?)

[blatantninja]

Nah, he's too old and fat for that. I'm just going to have to thieve it back next time i can get him drunk!

[pibbur]

Nah, he's too old and fat for that. I'm just going to have to thieve it back next time i can get him drunk!

Ahh. As long as he doesn't see you (and you don't bring along your friends) you should be fine, I think.

[blatantninja]

Ahh. As long as he doesn't see you (and you don't bring along your friends) you should be fine, I think.

It does seem a bit wrong to be stealing an Ultima map though!

[JDR13]

You could try that military school stunt on him. (?)

Was that a Fallout 3 reference? :)

Btw: I stumbled across the virgin detecting Unicorn today….. hilarious!

[blatantninja]

So I decided to give U7 a whirl tonight just for fun. Loaded up the latest release of Exult (took me a while to find a resolution that didn't crash when the guardian comes out in the intro). Starting to enjoy it when my dog starts barking and growling like nothing I have ever seen. This occured just as the guardian makes his appearance in the intro. I turn around an she is staring right at the screen, eyes locked and going apeshit!

Obviously, she knows evil when she sees it!

[GothicGothicness]

WOW, the intro is so great and the guardian so evil it even affects animals :D

[Dasale]

With all current hype about the game in this forum I decided give it another look, got the pleasant surprised to see it still installed.

But one thing I had forget made me laugh loud. Ton of whiners about the dialog system in ME2 or DA2 whining about few words only to show dialog options... when the "perfect" game use one word.

Lol that said all what I'm thinking.

[GothicGothicness]

:D I know that one would be brought up :D yes you are right Dasale.

It has sentences in there on occasion, not only words. But yes, I agree with you. It is not old bioware which lists the complete line you want to say.

There is a different with mass effect though. What ( I think ) annoys a lot of people with mass effect is that you choose something. Just to find your character says something else completely unexpected.

Edit: remember to wait quite some time on the intro, for the cool little Easter egg....

[Dasale]

No no I do agree ME2 and DA2 don't implement well the system sometimes, it's also coming from less basic/obvious dialog options, ie a different writing approach than in a game like U7. But my point is that modern players are whiners, I read so deep explanation why the system was wrong, you could easily apply them to U7.

So many details hurt the modern player I am now. The panels, dam that irritate me, and wonder why nobody ever patch this. Translate letter by letter or even learn a new alphabet is above my modern patience, in old time even if it probably get bored some players, it's little players actions building a mood and players was welcoming them. Today it won't work, that's clear. The problem is I bet I will be able to find many details like that, that are in fact tedious actions but at end build a mood. Alas modern games don't have anymore such tools at their disposal, it would just not work.

[JDR13]

But one thing I had forget made me laugh loud. Ton of whiners about the dialog system in ME2 or DA2 whining about few words only to show dialog options… when the "perfect" game use one word.

It uses a keyword system where you mention a topic, and then the NPCs talk about it. I actually like it more than what I've seen in a lot of recent games. Some of the conversations were certainly longer at least.

Don't forget that U7 was released in 1992! When you put that into perspective, I think the game is an amazing accomplishment.

[pibbur]

I think in U7 there is somewhere a theater group performing a play, where the dialogue is based on the name, job, bye mechanics. Am I right?

[GothicGothicness]

Yes, you are :D

[JDR13]

You encounter the theater group North of Trinsic. It's generally the first thing you see when you leave the starting area.

[Dasale]

…
Don't forget that U7 was released in 1992! When you put that into perspective, I think the game is an amazing accomplishment.
That sentence says all, you put it in perspective of its age, it's not objective evaluation. You are ready to ignore some flaws because of its age.

But this is wrong. First for its time I remember more it was close to be a piece of crap, slow and crashing and bugs. Ultima Underwords was a technology marvel of its time. But that's not the point, the point is the gameplay.

And no, a game of this age hadn't the burden of 3D so in my opinion a huge advantage to build a stronger game.

But let take some weakness as example:

The graphic style is very common, no style. And no be restricted in definition isn't a justification. You don't need high definition to achieve a style.
In my language the language style used is old French, that's very precious and non natural. Moreover, perhaps it's wrong translation but the writing style is weak, now best games have a style quite more close to books. Put that U7 dialogs in a book and you will get bashed, put dialogs of The Witcher in a book and it's not ridiculous, one is naive the other mature.
Do you want compare Avatar companions with Mass Effect 2 companions? Perhaps your imagination put a lot in the first but it's your imagination, there's just no comparison possible, ok for me.
Action fighting is quite under the average, even in its time it wasn't considered as a marvel on this point, and now it's even worse, and no age isn't a justification of anything but lower technical.
The first town is very symbolic for its people wandering. It's a small town but anyway most often there's few guards and about 4/5 people in streets. Do that nowadays in a town of this size and you'll get bashed because your town is desert and lack of life.
The panels using non standard alphabet is a childish approach, nice for kids, but seriously for adults it's more a pain than anything else.

[blatantninja]

But this is wrong. First for its time I remember more it was close to be a piece of crap, slow and crashing and bugs.

Graphically, it was way ahead of its time. While other games were just catching up to the graphics levels of Ultima VI, Ultima VII took it to a complete new level. The reviews were amazing.

There were some bugs for sure (one I mentioned on another thread), but it was extremely well reviewed when it came out.

* The graphic style is very common, no style. And no be restricted in definition isn't a justification. You don't need high definition to achieve a style.

That is incorrect. U6 was one of the first, if not the first to use the 3-D isometic perspective. U7 was the first to take that and make the graphics really look like the things they were supposed to represent.

* In my language the language style used is old French, that's very precious and non natural.

In English it's Middle English (Lots of thee's and thou's), which was done from the first Ultima as it is a medieval setting. Old French seems like the right choice for a medieval setting.

Moreover, perhaps it's wrong translation but the writing style is weak, now best games have a style quite more close to books. Put that U7 dialogs in a book and you will get bashed, put dialogs of The Witcher in a book and it's not ridiculous, one is naive the other mature.

Why are you comparing it to today's? They had limited space on disks back then. U7 had one of the more robust conversation systems of the time. Yes, you have to get back in that mindset to appreciate it, but once you do, it's as deep as anything written today.

* Action fighting is quite under the average, even in its time it wasn't considered as a marvel on this point, and now it's even worse, and no age isn't a justification of anything but lower technical.

Fighting was never a huge part of the Ultima series. It's there and serves a purpose, but it's always been more about the quests and the world interaction than fighting. The non-fighting action (moving boxes to make stacks, churning butter to make food, etc.) surpassed anything before and most things since.

* The first town is very symbolic for its people wandering. It's a small town but anyway most often there's few guards and about 4/5 people in streets. Do that nowadays in a town of this size and you'll get bashed because your town is desert and lack of life.

Again, so what? It was extremely robust for the time. Britain is particularly full of people.

The panels using non standard alphabet is a childish approach, nice for kids, but seriously for adults it's more a pain than anything else.

It's about setting and role-playing not making something easy. I loved it. Over time, I had learned the runic alphabet such that I didn't need anything to translate them.

It sounds like you just want to be fed all the content of a game without putting much effort in.

[Dasale]

No it was one more game with zero graphic style, it aimed as most games the best details for the technology but with zero style. And a style isn't a technical like iso or 3D.

Text use no space on disk, that's a very false argument. Again you put it in perspective, that's not trying achieve some objectivity.

It's not a matter of fights good or not in the series, it's just fights quality. It's once more an attempt to put in perspective objective weakness, but no that's not the way to do fair comparison. Again you forget too easily the burden is 3D nowadays.

I repeat, a town of this size, with so few people in streets, you'll get bashed hard nowadays. Not to mention do it in 3D technology would cost 10 more, yes I also put in perspective because you abuse of it.

For the fake alphabet, I feel this kiddish, you not, ok.

[blatantninja]

No it was one more game with zero graphic style, it aimed as most games the best details for the technology but with zero style. And a style isn't a technical like iso or 3D.

They what do you mean by style? It was a fully colored world with a medieval setting.

Text use no space on disk, that's a very false argument. Again you put it in perspective, that's not trying achieve some objectivity.

Text takes up space. Ultima VII was still dributed on floppy discs that had a capacity of 1.2MB, and they had to split it onto something like 8 different discs. Every byte counts.

It's not a matter of fights good or not in the series, it's just fights quality.

Which doesn't necessarily define a game. As I said, Ultima was never about the fights.

I repeat, a town of this size, with so few people in streets, you'll get bashed hard nowadays.

Again, what is the point? For its time, the world was more filled out that any other out there, and towns like Britain are more filled out than many in NWN2.

And to back up how well it was received, here is link with some reviews when it came out:

http://bootstrike.com/Ultima7bg/Online/bgreview.html

Some quotes:

It's up to typical Origin "blow-your-mind" standards. The sub-plots are many and colorful. Conversations are more animated than ever before. The graphics are gorgeous, and the animation is excellent.

So is U7 worth the $70-odd they charge? If you like role-playing, then the answer is a definite "yes."

I recommend Ultima VII to all fans of the Ultima series, and fans of fantasy games in general (Although the game is playable without it, it would probably be immensely beneficial to play Ultima IV-VI before playing this game, as many characters and places have changed, and only a veteran of the previous games will notice these differences.) I suspect that this game will take even the most expert player a great many hours to complete—I've played for many hours and I don't think that I am even close to the end!

This game is a brilliant work. It is one of my favorite games of all times and definitely my favorite Ultima. The game engine is a tiled based overhead view. It is very similar to Ultima 6, except that the graphics are full screen. The user interface is entirely mouse driven. It is very intuitive and does not distract from the game play.
Highs

The best part of this game is the story. The story was very well written and keeps you on the edge of your seat to the end. It starts with a hook, the murder of an innocent man. It pulls you along with your quest to find the murderer. At the same time, it is not a linear story. You can travel around the world in any order you please. After I completed the game, I went back and explored two entire towns that I had never entered before and completed the sub quests in those towns.

The world feels very real due to a high level of interaction. You can make money by working for the farmer collecting eggs or moving pumpkins. You can make bread dough and then bake it and sell it. When you talk to one character, another character close by may break in and add something. People have lives that they live. During the day you may need to find someone in the shop that they run, but in the evening they will be in the tavern or in bed. In general, if you can click on an object in this world, you can use it like a real object!

All of this adds up to a compelling game with an interesting plot, but still a free form play style that lets you do what you want. You do not feel manipulated through this game.

This is one of the best Ultima games ever made. Its a great balance between compelling story and free form adventuring. At times you truly believe that there is a whole another world living in your computer.

I don't see anyone saying "They should have done this in 3-D!" or "The conversations aren't fleshed out enough!"

[GothicGothicness]

Well, since I made a point it is still superior to todays games I can't hide between it is from 1992. But I can reply anyway.

I repeat, a town of this size, with so few people in streets, you'll get bashed hard nowadays. Not to mention do it in 3D technology would cost 10 more, yes I also put in perspective because you abuse of it.



Few people? compared to what game. Mass Effect? where close to all people stand still in one place looking strange and having close to nothing to say? + there is a loading screen completely breaking the flow each time you want to enter a place.

Or compared to oblivion where there are some people that walk on the streets which all look the same and have nothing to say? and there is a loading screen each time you want to enter a house...

Or what modern game are you comparing it to?

•The graphic style is very common, no style. And no be restricted in definition isn't a justification. You don't need high definition to achieve a style.


We can't have graphics in the comparasion it is ridicules to compare the graphics of a game from 1992 with one from 2010. Obviously I didn't mean the graphics was superior in my statement.

•In my language the language style used is old French, that's very precious and non natural. Moreover, perhaps it's wrong translation but the writing style is weak, now best games have a style quite more close to books. Put that U7 dialogs in a book and you will get bashed, put dialogs of The Witcher in a book and it's not ridiculous, one is naive the other mature.


Lots of people likes the old english used in ultima's. Of course it isn't for everyone.

Do you want compare Avatar companions with Mass Effect 2 companions? Perhaps your imagination put a lot in the first but it's your imagination, there's just no comparison possible, ok for me.


Why not?

[huggster]

Ultima 7 was a fantastic achievement. For me its forte was the level of interactivity with the world and the things you would stumble across whilst adventuring. I started on basic adventure RPGs games like "Journeys End", "Oracles Cave" on the Spectrum, "Phantasie" series and action ones like "Dungeon Master". But U7, UW1 and UW2 carved out a lasting legacy for me.
I really miss the interactivity and ambition we are losing.

[blatantninja]

I saw an interesting thing in one of those articles. Origin had a break even sales point of 50,000 units, which they surpassed (60,000) with pre-orders. The pre-orders went for $70. EA had not bought Origin at this point, and IIRC Origin was the published so they didn't have to split that profit with anyone.

So, that means that Ultima VII cost $3.5MM to create.

That equates to roughly $5.5MM today. And with prices at $60 for a new game, that means if it was made today, the break even would be 91,667 units (assuming the same sales model).

So basically since the cost of games has not increased in the past 20 years, they'd have to just about double their sales to cover.

Ultima VII was considered a AAA game at the time. So let's compare that to Dragon Age:Origins (don't want to use DA2 since it reuses so much technology and assets). EA/Bioware hasn't released any data on the cost of making DA:O, but a friend of mine that works in the industry told me that he figured with the 5 year development schedule for it, it was probably between $20 and $25MM.

So basically the cost of making a AAA game has increased either 4 or 5x in the last two decades. I'm sure that is not surprising to most people, but the more money that is on the table, the more conservative (in terms of development) the developer/publisher is going to be.

It's a shame really, because while the cost is going through the roof, it doesn't seem like we're getting 4x or 5x the game (granted we are paying less in real dollar terms as well).

So if people were willing to pay $200-250 for a game (IE pegging the retail price increase to the development increase), would we see better, more imaginative, original games?

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I fear/think/assume this would lead to something like an art fair : High-cost items that are more or less unique and FULL of creativity - but which re on the other hand available only to very, very few people because of the costs ...

On the other hand, children are also able to create "art" items which are just FULL of creativity at no costs at all ...

If programming was less cot-intensive ... well, programming lone doesn't make a game ... but anyway, if the costs were less, then we'd see many more Indie and "homebrew" games ...

[GothicGothicness]

So if people were willing to pay $200-250 for a game (IE pegging the retail price increase to the development increase)

I fear that would create a huge increase in piracy rate ?

[TheMadGamer]

No it was one more game with zero graphic style, it aimed as most games the best details for the technology but with zero style. And a style isn't a technical like iso or 3D.

No disrespect, but I couldn't disagree more. U7 has a unique style on a lot of different levels. Perhaps you just don't like its style, but it does have style.

Text use no space on disk, that's a very false argument. Again you put it in perspective, that's not trying achieve some objectivity.

Actually, memory and storage limitations were a huge issue in the early days of gaming (from the 70s until arguably the late 90s). Origin even had to write its own proprietary DOS memory manager, called 'Voodoo Memory Manager (http://ultima.wikia.com/wiki/Voodoo_Memory_Manager)' in order to eek out every possible advantage PCs could offer at that time (circa 1991). The Voodoo memory manager is the single biggest reason why it is so difficult to get the game to run on modern O/Ss and why Exult (http://exult.sourceforge.net/) exists.

It's not a matter of fights good or not in the series, it's just fights quality. It's once more an attempt to put in perspective objective weakness, but no that's not the way to do fair comparison. Again you forget too easily the burden is 3D nowadays.

It's unfair to argue both ways. You criticized somone else for defending the game by putting it in a historical context but then you do the very same thing, in the opposite direction, by comparing U7 to contemporary expectations.

I have no beef with you for not liking U7 - there are a lot of 'classic' games I don't like myself. But your reasoning seems a bit flawed with regard to U7. Or perhaps it's just that English isn't your first language and it is hard to communicate accuaratley.

[JDR13]

That sentence says all, you put it in perspective of its age, it's not objective evaluation. You are ready to ignore some flaws because of its age

No. As usual, you took my statement out of context. I was simply giving credit where it's due, not claiming it to be flawless.

[Thrasher]

OK, I'll bite. ;)

I have the Ultima Collection in .rar form, that includes U1-U8, 2 add-ons for part 7, and Akalabeth. Any tricks to getting this version to install?

[JDR13]

Look on the first page of this thread for installing U7 with Exult. Otherwise, I assume dosbox is your best bet for the other titles.

[rune_74]

So since dasale has been using the witcher as reference in his posts what "style" does it have? This whole thread has been a ridiculus bashing of one of the best rpg's to ever have been made. Yes it was made in north america, and yes it uses thee and thou...but christ is it ever a good game.

[Dasale]

About the graphic style it could be just me who don't see it. To take an example DAO has no real graphic style, DA2 tried and didn't succeed well, Venetica or Mass Effect 2 are two examples of successful strong graphic style.

It's my preferences, since long Western video games didn't tried achieve any graphic style but only achieve a sort of best realism. And Ultima 7 fully participate to this rush. DAO made its own (insignificant) stop to that rush. And games like Team Fortress 2, Torchlight, Venetica, Mass Effect 2, tried achieve more than just the best possible realism and detail level, they try setup a strong graphic style.

I won't argue more on U7, I wanted highlight that not only it has its bag of flaws but also people tend ignore them because it's a different context, I could be wrong or not. From different articles or interview on the subject I think it's just impossible now to do such game and using 3D, even with zero voice acting and with saving by spiking cinematic but very few. But one part of this impossibility is because I believe that some points won't work in a modern context.

But I also wish that more game would be releasing using such approach and for that, that some A Game come back to Iso and view from above to make such attempt. For now I don't believe in it at all. In fact i feel a remake would be cool, but because of the false abandonware around the game plus the idolatry around the original game (because of qualities), such remake would have all chance to fail hard.

From what I have played of U7, not that much, but also not that few, my feeling is still that I prefer games like Fallout 1 or Gothic 2+NOTR (no quantity isn't a quality I care).

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Look on the first page of this thread for installing U7 with Exult. Otherwise, I assume dosbox is your best bet for the other titles.

I agree. I have old boxed copies of some Ultima games - some of them even in 5,25 format, but the discs were unreadable to a great part ... The smaller disks were much better readable ...

Therefore I have here a German version of Ultima 7 - as far as I know no other Ultima game was translated into German language, not even the add-ons (which I don't have).

What I have here is a box of Ultima Underworld I, of Ultima 7 "Die Schwarze Pforte" and a box called "The Second Trilogy", which is the one which contains the floppies in 5,25 format.

I managed to install all of them via DOSBOX, and used Exult for Ultima 7.

Never played them through so far, though.

[huggster]

I think a lot of it depends whether you played through these games when they came out. Can you imagine playing U7 in 1992? Picking up the pure black box. The smell of the manual as you opened up the wrapping. The trinkets. Tweaking your system to even get it running like a magician in the autoexec.
Going back to these nowadays of course they will not be as "impressive".

[blatantninja]

I agree. I have old boxed copies of some Ultima games - some of them even in 5,25 format, but the discs were unreadable to a great part … The smaller disks were much better readable …

Therefore I have here a German version of Ultima 7 - as far as I know no other Ultima game was translated into German language, not even the add-ons (which I don't have).

What I have here is a box of Ultima Underworld I, of Ultima 7 "Die Schwarze Pforte" and a box called "The Second Trilogy", which is the one which contains the floppies in 5,25 format.

I managed to install all of them via DOSBOX, and used Exult for Ultima 7.

Never played them through so far, though.

I played Ultima VI recently using NUVIE. I think there are still some features to be implemented, but it seemed to work pretty good.

[TheMadGamer]

The smell of the manual as you opened up the wrapping.

I remember that smell! Every once in a while I'll buy something where I get a wiff of that smell and I am immidiatley transported back to the 80s and opening Ultima IV or King's Quest 3. Good times!

[Dasale]

I think a lot of it depends whether you played through these games when they came out. Can you imagine playing U7 in 1992? Picking up the pure black box. The smell of the manual as you opened up the wrapping. The trinkets. Tweaking your system to even get it running like a magician in the autoexec.
Going back to these nowadays of course they will not be as "impressive".
Well I do played a bit of U7 in 92, but that smell was since a long time already associated to books so nothing special for me in favor of U7 packaging… differences between generations. :)

Other than that, on my dx2 66 the game was fat, and fights and controls bored me, then I switch to Ultima Underword and never came back to U7, but I also sold my PC during 93 and didn't replaced it. If not I could have come back to U7.

[JemyM]

Ultima 8 is now up
http://spoonyexperiment.com/2012/01/31/ultima-8-pagan/

[bjon045]

Dosbox is still the preferred way of running U7. I gave the latest exult snapshot a run less than 6 months ago and found some pretty annoying issues just a few hours in. I have played through U7 more than 5 times now and U7p2 even more times than that. The good thing about the 2D graphics is they age much better than 3d does.