anyone else think that TOEE's engine could have been the next IE?

[Captain Smollett]

Hey, new poster here.

After playing Troika's Temple of Elemental Evil many years, while i was somewhat disappointed by the game, I loved the engine and perhaps foolishly hoped that the engine could be built upon and used for a series of DND-based CRPGs, like the Infinity Engine.

Unfortunately Troika bit the bullet and the game was forgotten.

Was anyone else similarly impressed by TOEE in that regard?

[sakichop]

loved toee's combat engine. Game was lacking but played it just for the combat. Would have loved to see more games built on that engine. Probably the most faithful translation of the d&d rule set to crpg's and who didn't love the giant frogs?

[JDR13]

Probably the most faithful translation of the d&d rule set to crpg's and who didn't love the giant frogs?

Forget about the frogs... it had a Gelatinous Cube!

[sakichop]

That was awesome I almost forgot. Time to give it another whirl!

[JDR13]

Yeah..fun game, even though it's basically just one encounter after another. I haven't played it since shortly after it was released, so there are lot of things I don't even remember about it.

I wish it had multiple towns/villages though, rather than just the one town and one huge dungeon. I do remember feeling a bit let down by the ending as well, but endings don't mean that much to me as long as I enjoyed the bulk of the game. (see Risen) :)

[Nerevarine]

The one thing that was truly missing from TOEE was a great Troika story, as seen in their other two games. Ironically, you could also say that what was missing from Troika's other two games was TOEE's awesome combat system. If only there was a way to merge TOEE's combat into Arcanum..

[Captain Smollett]

Imagine a fully-fledged BG style game with that engine...

[DoctorNarrative]

The one thing that was truly missing from TOEE was a great Troika story, as seen in their other two games.

Yeah, the Icewind Dale games and ToEE lack the story and choice elements I want in an RPG, but as combat games they are the cream of the crop really.

[Dhruin]

There's no doubt the intent was to use the engine as a base for multiple games but the sales killed that off. I think Tim Cain made a mistake selecting ToEE as the basis and they didn't understand the success of the BioWare games, such as companion dialogue. Definitely a shame.

[Nerevarine]

Yeah, the Icewind Dale games and ToEE lack the story and choice elements I want in an RPG, but as combat games they are the cream of the crop really.

I Agree, I think that IWD and TOEE truly are the pinnacle of Dn'D CRPG combat. However, combat isn't the most important aspect of an RPG, so while I consider them both to be great games, I wouldn't consider them to be great RPGs. I still absolutely love both games though.

[Starwars]

I think the choice element is actually fairly overlooked in ToEE. There *are* a number of interesting choices you can make in that game. I just think that people tend to look past that since the writing and story (which partially has to do with the module itself) feels uninspired.

But yes, I would've loved to see more games made in that engine.

[blatantninja]

I never got far in it. While I liked the look of it, the engine just didn't seem to flow well. I understand for some people it was exactly what they were looking for, but it just seemed exceedingly strange to me for the game to basically be real time until combat started then switch to complete turn based. I couldn't get used to it.

[Twotricks]

It was truest representation of 3rd edition Rules in any game.

And it was great game , just like Bloodlines was.

I guess we didnt deserve greatness of Trioka :(

[BillSeurer]

It was a great game engine in search of an actual game. The scenario presented was totally bland and forgettable. Can anyone even name *one* NPC from it?

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I remember the owners of the tower, and that cleric, but not by names.

I played it quite through, although not until the end. And since my PC was a bit older, then, it had quite some graphics problems in *huge* battles ...

But the most memorable thing for me was its help system. I've never seen such a detailed help system in any game. Only Drakensang came close, imho. (Although I must admit that I didn't play too many RPGs during the last years).

And I think the folks there at CO8 were preparing additional modules ?

[Captain Smollett]

I remember the owners of the tower, and that cleric, but not by names.

I played it quite through, although not until the end. And since my PC was a bit older, then, it had quite some graphics problems in *huge* battles …

But the most memorable thing for me was its help system. I've never seen such a detailed help system in any game. Only Drakensang came close, imho. (Although I must admit that I didn't play too many RPGs during the last years).

And I think the folks there at CO8 were preparing additional modules ?

Help system? Sorry, it's been a long time since I last played it. Could you elaborate what you mean?

[Gokyabgu]

I still think TOEE engine is the most advanced 2d isometric RPG engine out there. It has lots of potential, actually I was hoping there would have been a sequel of Arcanum using TOEE engine. But of course all my hopes crumbled to dust with the demise of Troika. If only Atari, Interplay (or who else has the license) distribute infinity or toee engines and their tools freely. I think talented indie developers can create wonders with such tools in their hand.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Help system? Sorry, it's been a long time since I last played it. Could you elaborate what you mean?

Uh, it's long ago ... It basically works like a very traditional Windows help system, only within the game.

But since it is so long ago, I can't wquite remember this anymore ... I have it installed, but I'm too lazy to get the discs out again ...

[blatantninja]

I still think TOEE engine is the most advanced 2d isometric RPG engine out there. It has lots of potential, actually I was hoping there would have been a sequel of Arcanum using TOEE engine. But of course all my hopes crumbled to dust with the demise of Troika. If only Atari, Interplay (or who else has the license) distribute infinity or toee engines and their tools freely. I think talented indie developers can create wonders with such tools in their hand.

In September 2006, one of Arcanum's lead programmers and co-founder of Troika, Leonard Boyarsky, divulged that the studio had originally commenced work on a sequel, going by the working title of Journey to the Centre of Arcanum, which would use Valve's Source Engine. Development was curtailed by disputes between Sierra and Valve, resulting ultimately in the project being shelved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcanum:_Of_Steamworks_and_Magick_Obscura#Sequel

Looks like it would have been a 3-D engine, so you were SOL either way.

[Gokyabgu]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcanum:_Of_Steamworks_and_Magick_Obscura#Sequel

Looks like it would have been a 3-D engine, so you were SOL either way.

Then it's good that they couldn't make it. VtM: Bloodlines is one of my all time favourite RPGs and it was made by the source engine too, but Arcanum presents different taste (quite a large world to explore, turn-based combat system) to the player than Bloodlines (much more focus to the story, much more linear, real time combat system).

Now I consider Age of Decadence as the next Arcanum-style game. :)

[Dasale]

I never got far in it. While I liked the look of it, the engine just didn't seem to flow well. I understand for some people it was exactly what they were looking for, but it just seemed exceedingly strange to me for the game to basically be real time until combat started then switch to complete turn based. I couldn't get used to it.
So you never played Fallout 1 nor 2. I feel this system a good trade because exploration doesn't really require turn based and fights designed for turn based have ton more potential for strategy and tactics.

Myself I enjoyed the companions and the story plus the few alternate choices. Ok I don't remember their names but I also never read many times mention of any of them unlike some of other RPG. But for sure the great points was ton of good fighting and exploration that was often good. The game get killed for me prematurely because of few persistent bugs corrupting savegame that the community never succeed patch despite multiple patches done. Because of that I played it only two times and second time didn't reach the end. But I also replayed a part of my first play to try an alternate choices.

The problem of companions is that after BG2 players feel them poor because a density like in BG2 requires a huge time of design. In a way Bioware killed companions in RPG.

EDIT: But if a system like in Eschalon Book could be adapted to party, this could be an even better base than RT exploration and TB fights. No Avernum series doesn't implement at all this system, well at least that's my feeling.

[Captain Smollett]

Then it's good that they couldn't make it. VtM: Bloodlines is one of my all time favourite RPGs and it was made by the source engine too, but Arcanum presents different taste (quite a large world to explore, turn-based combat system) to the player than Bloodlines (much more focus to the story, much more linear, real time combat system).

Now I consider Age of Decadence as the next Arcanum-style game. :)

Considering steampunk is "in" these days I think an Arcanum sequel might do pretty well nowadays.

There have been sequels of games by defunct developers/publishers before (Fallout, Thief, Deus Ex).. I think Arcanum is deserving of one too.

[JDR13]

There have been sequels of games by defunct developers/publishers before (Fallout, Thief, Deus Ex).. I think Arcanum is deserving of one too.

I would love to see a sequel to a game like Arcanum, but I doubt it would be anything like the original, and it certainly wouldn't be an isometric, turn-based crpg.

[blatantninja]

So you never played Fallout 1 nor 2. I feel this system a good trade because exploration doesn't really require turn based and fights designed for turn based have ton more potential for strategy and tactics.

I bought them from GOG last year and haven't had much time to play them yet. I did play a little bit of the first one when I bought it, and I found the combat confusing.

The problem of companions is that after BG2 players feel them poor because a density like in BG2 requires a huge time of design. In a way Bioware killed companions in RPG.

Yeah, BG2 really spoiled us. I think the interaction with the companions is what draws me over and over to that game. Sort of like visiting with old friends.


Considering steampunk is "in" these days I think an Arcanum sequel might do pretty well nowadays.

I'm really enjoying the steampunk setting of Arcanum. Only other game in that setting I've played was Ultima, WoA Martian Dreams. I've always thought the concept was cool, but I never found any media I liked with it.

Any recommendations on other games?

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Yeah, BG2 really spoiled us. I think the interaction with the companions is what draws me over and over to that game. Sort of like visiting with old friends.

I agree. They set a standard so high that lmost no-one can really reach it.

And then games get bad remarks because games can't comply to that high standard, I fear.

[Dasale]

I bought them from GOG last year and haven't had much time to play them yet. I did play a little bit of the first one when I bought it, and I found the combat confusing.

Ouch Fallout 1 with confusing combats? I don't understand it, it's turn based so at worse you can take more time if you want. Well RPG are confusing, complex classes and you don't know very well the result of your class choices, plenty stories, many characters, and combats. But well it's not a flaw.



Yeah, BG2 really spoiled us. I think the interaction with the companions is what draws me over and over to that game. Sort of like visiting with old friends.

For me it's more the fights that will drag me back to a RPG, the point is I dislike many companions in BG2 that I enjoyed in BG1. Also if there was well detailled and build in BG2, not as well detailed in BG2, I regret a lot the companion design orientation of BG1. But yes BG2 but I think DAO too build in different way impossible challenges for companions.

I agree. They set a standard so high that lmost no-one can really reach it.

And then games get bad remarks because games can't comply to that high standard, I fear.
Well for modern games I mean since 5/6 years perhaps more, I also suspect the high standard discourage design team or financial team.

But I think it's also a lot because no companions remove many problems:

It allow a closer view, highlighting the detailed 3D and people think it improves immersion feeling.
Fights are more easy to design with just one character to control when for a party it's complicate and turn based fights is like banished so can't be the solution to control a party.
It simplifies the complicated points of RPG, not 6 classes to manage, not 6 inventories to manage.
Area and places and clear objective points for achieving a gigantic size many player want at any price, when companions depth is a more subjective value for the size of the game. So it's an easier solution to trade companions for more area so more clear bigger size of the game.

[Relayer]

Arcanum using the TOEE engine... I think I just had an orgasm at the thought.

But they could use that engine today and I'd still be happy with it. It's been a while since I played TOEE (sadly, never finished it so maybe I should look for those CDs) but I remember it looked excellent, with lots of detail and a very functional U.I.

[Captain Smollett]

Arcanum using the TOEE engine… I think I just had an orgasm at the thought.

But they could use that engine today and I'd still be happy with it. It's been a while since I played TOEE (sadly, never finished it so maybe I should look for those CDs) but I remember it looked excellent, with lots of detail and a very functional U.I.

Yup, it's functional and I could definately see a game today being made with the engine. I can't say the same about the Infinity Engine, given the recent nostalgic thread about it here (We miss the Infinity Engine I think it is called).

[JDR13]

Yup, it's functional and I could definately see a game today being made with the engine. I can't say the same about the Infinity Engine, given the recent nostalgic thread about it here (We miss the Infinity Engine I think it is called).

Give the Infinity Engine a facelift, and I'd love to see something made with it today.

[blatantninja]

Ouch Fallout 1 with confusing combats? I don't understand it, it's turn based so at worse you can take more time if you want. Well RPG are confusing, complex classes and you don't know very well the result of your class choices, plenty stories, many characters, and combats. But well it's not a flaw.

Not saying its a flaw, I just found it confusing to go from a real time environment to turn based. Also, there seemed to be some other things in play with how many turns you got vs your enemy, etc. that I didn't have a grasp for.

[blatantninja]

Give the Infinity Engine a facelift, and I'd love to see something made with it today.

They wouldn't even need to give it a facelift for me! Just put together new areas, a new story and the same great writing and I'd pay $50 for that in a heartbeat!

[Thiraury]

I'm playing TOEE right now with the circle of eight modpack and WOW, what a nice game it is! One thing i've been thinking about is that the supposedly small village of hommlet feels like it's packed with more people and life then most "big" cities of newer games. The small village of hommlet feels larger and more interesting then the metropols of ME2 for instance. heh.