MMOWatch Feature - Vanguard: Early Impressions

[Dhruin]

It's taken quite some time but we finally have our first MMOWatch feature up. From the dreamteam of big name developers to the design philosophy, Vanguard is a fascinating game. With several weeks of playing under his belt, Moxie has some detailed early impressions of Sigil's new release:
Vanguard is big and it's attempting quite a bit. I started playing the beta a month ago and have followed the game through launch. When I logged into the game for the first time, I was honestly concerned as things felt clunky and the polish just wasn't there. However, a slew of daily updates have brought the game to level that legitimizes its release. For an MMO, being ready for release doesn't just include bug-free gameplay, but content plays an equally important part. I've played new MMOs that had streamlined their mechanics only to fail in providing enough to do or wrapping activities into a meaningful narrative. This point may be Vanguard's greatest strength - not only does the game deliver content in spades, but it presents it within a convincing, fully-realized world.
Read it all here (http://www.rpgwatch.com//forums/../show/article?articleid=24&ref=0&id=74).
More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=3781)

[Acleacius]

Intresting is there a free 7 day trial similar to EQ2?
It certianly would help and keep anyone intrested from asking thousands of basic questions like which classes do this and can they still do that? ;)

Example I go to the official site and can't find out anything about the each class only able to look at previous created toons, basicly current toons but nothing on descritptions provinding info of advantages or disavantages of each race and class.

[Inauro]

Nice work, Moxie. Great review, and so good to see something on the front page of MMO Watch at last.

[moxie]

Acleacius, for being the first to comment, my 10-day friend trial is yours if you want it. Private message me if you're interested and I'll send you the key.

[Acleacius]

You article inspired me to start looking into it and I checked the system requirments and seem to qualify, so I would give it a try. :)

Also I seem to have found a very informative site about Vanguard, with lots of info on classes and such if anyone is intrested. :)

http://vanguardvault.ign.com/

Doh! No Summoners. :(

[araczynski]

I think they're going to miss the boat on this one, again. WoW should've been the obvious indication of what the typical online rpg'er wants; simple and fun, not throwbacks to the EQ days. i'm sure they'll have their small hardcore crowd (typically made up of the folks that sit in their basements 100% of their free time and game day after day after day), so if that's all that they were after then i guess they'll succeed in their goal.

the masses still don't have the RL time to put into an EQ clone.

sadly i would've enjoyed this game, had it been solo friendly.

[Acleacius]

What makes you say it's not solo friendly?

[Cabezone]

What makes you say it's not solo friendly?

The devs said from the start that it's a team orientated game.

[roqua]

I saw in an interview, I forget which, that they plan on implementing a character development system at some time, anyone from beta know what this is or how it is planning on working out or have any info i can have? If they are still tweaking the classes without any character diferation, it probably wont be anytime soon.

[Yates1968]

I don't want to play a game with 'the masses', personally. The best gamers are the minority.

[dagoo77]

I don't want to play a game with 'the masses', personally. The best gamers are the minority.

Unfortunately, they also tend to be the ones with unhealthy amounts of focused time to dedicate to a game. As a result, this means limited people with families, children, time-consuming jobs, and/or healthy social lives. May indeed be the "best gamers" but not people I could likely play with or even really relate to.

[pox67]

I think they're going to miss the boat on this one, again. WoW should've been the obvious indication of what the typical online rpg'er wants; simple and fun, not throwbacks to the EQ days. i'm sure they'll have their small hardcore crowd (typically made up of the folks that sit in their basements 100% of their free time and game day after day after day), so if that's all that they were after then i guess they'll succeed in their goal.

the masses still don't have the RL time to put into an EQ clone.

sadly i would've enjoyed this game, had it been solo friendly.

I don't think they were ever trying to build that boat. The devs have been very vocal in the type of game they were trying to build. I would say they succeeded very well. I played 2 weeks of beta then pre retail and retail until now.

The game is fun and has some great ideas in there.

The problem is that Vanguard has me evaluating the time I can spend on a computer game for what I will get out of it. Vanguard didn't come out so good and I don't think I will be subscribing to it. For instance, in around 15 hours of crafting I got to level 8. You can't even make anything useful until level 10 so it is just grinding work orders. The crafting system is good and somewhat entertaining but this development rate isn't for me and it will get slower the higher I get.

I have other hobbies (RC planes and cars, a wife) as well as playing Oblivion, NWN2 and other games. I just don't want to devote the hours that VG demands. I am sure there are others that will love this game, even if they don't see much daylight in the next few years.

[Dhruin]

"Succeeded" depends on how you evaluate the apparent success. I'm betting Vanguard won't exceed 250k subs, which I would think is a commercial failure for this project. I have no issue with their goals but I think this design needs to be built for a niche audience.

[Moriendor]

I'm betting Vanguard won't exceed 250k subs, which I would think is a commercial failure for this project.

I don't think that they are aiming that high realistically. If the usual sources are to be believed then it looks like D&D Online barely ever broke the 100K barrier so if Sigil is realistic (which they must be since they intentionally made Vanguard with "hardcore" players in mind) then they must know that they can call themselves lucky if they can get that same 100K.
But it's going to be a little more complex to evaluate Vanguard's success anyway since it's part of Sony's Station Access program.
In fact, regarding how tight-lipped SOE have always been about their subs, it should pretty much turn out to be nearly impossible to guess at the game's success.
And -no- retail data won't help either because SOE is offering the game for digital download, too. The only chance to get any (hopefully) real data is if we hear from SOE's marketing if/when the game surpasses certain sub milestones (like 100K, 250K, 300K etc) but until then it's totally stabbing around in the dark ;) .

I would assume, however, that Sigil is kind of on the safe side anyway. The inclusion in SOE's Station Access probably means that a nice, reasonably-sized check is sent their way every month and that their risk is very limited. On the downside, they probably had to trade security for royalties so if the game turns into a smashing success, I would assume that SOE will be happier than Sigil. But that's just guess work as well...

[Acleacius]

Well the one thing that is pretty amazing is this is the first showing of the Unreal 3 engine and it looks fantastic, not that I have a great system to see I maxed out, alos a first of the Unreal engine being a MMOG, iirc.

Yes it does seem they are aiming for the hardcore to me, as pox67 mentioned everything is very lean like xp and gold, atm.

I have been playing the Necro class since I tend to like pets and it's the only pet class atm.
It does have some intresting new ideas like the creature (abomination) once your reach 10th you can start salvaing parts of dead foes to upgrade your pet, I just hit 9th level so I should know a little more about it soon.

I think I would focus on creating a good solo content first to get people in and enjoying themselves doing quest, then building up enough to do an addon or such for the hardcore.
To me getting the moderate to casual gamer in as a base then you can much more flexiblity.
It would be much better to have a minority of hardcore complaining till you got the first expansion out, then not getting the causal or moderate customers because it's too hard.

[Moriendor]

Well the one thing that is pretty amazing is this is the first showing of the Unreal 3 engine

No, it's not ;) . Rainbow Six: Vegas came out last year (so long before Vanguard) and is also powered by Unreal 3. And I think Gears of War is Unreal 3 as well though it's "only" on X360, of course. Don't know if there were any other games in addition to those two but Vanguard certainly doesn't deserve credit for "first showing of Unreal 3".

[Acleacius]

Looks like your right about Ranbow 6, but is certianly is the first MMOG, so yes it does deserve some credit. :)
It's looks like there are only 3 counting Vanguard, though Moby hasn't been updated yet.
http://www.mobygames.com/game-group/3d-engine-unrealengine3

It is rather odd though Rainbow 6 was out Nov 21 and Vanguard has been in closed beta for a couple of months though correct?
So techically it could have easily been used first in Vanguard. :)
http://www.mobygames.com/game/tom-clancys-rainbow-six-vegas

[Dhruin]

I don't think that they are aiming that high realistically. If the usual sources are to be believed then it looks like D&D Online barely ever broke the 100K barrier so if Sigil is realistic (which they must be since they intentionally made Vanguard with "hardcore" players in mind) then they must know that they can call themselves lucky if they can get that same 100K.
But it's going to be a little more complex to evaluate Vanguard's success anyway since it's part of Sony's Station Access program.

I agree on the 100k but I was giving them the benefit of the doubt. ;) My feeling was that McQuaid, Butler and Co. were pursuing a relatively expensive design with top-class personnel, so they would need to hit fairly big. If they've been smart enough to budget for 100k, more power to them, but I'm still not sure.

I doubt Turbine are remotely happy with their figures and this indication would have come too late for Sigil to do much but hold on and hope. Still, who knows?

Guess we'll see what the media and hints like server closures (or whatever) tell us over time. :)

[Ionstormsucks]

I think they're going to miss the boat on this one, again. WoW should've been the obvious indication of what the typical online rpg'er wants; simple and fun, not throwbacks to the EQ days. i'm sure they'll have their small hardcore crowd (typically made up of the folks that sit in their basements 100% of their free time and game day after day after day), so if that's all that they were after then i guess they'll succeed in their goal.

the masses still don't have the RL time to put into an EQ clone.

sadly i would've enjoyed this game, had it been solo friendly.

Well, I have to disagree... there is no such thing as the typical online rpger. I also very much disagree with the "all mmos have to be like WoW because WoW was successful" methoddology. And as mentioned before Sigil is not aiming at 6 million subscribers. The technical requirements of Vanguard alone make that pretty much impossible anyway.

[Acleacius]

Ok additionally in case anyone cares Vanguard is a no loading zone game (like Gothic 3), as mentioned before I am not expert but I don't recall of hearing of a no load MMOG before, maybe just me though. :)
Secondly they Unreal series of engines has not to my experience ever breached this technology before and certainly the first mainstream engine I have heard, plus the graphic level of quality and Unreal's ability to have great looking textures with excellent network capability is pretty cool at least from a technological standpoint. ;)

[pox67]

Ok additionally in case anyone cares Vanguard is a no loading zone game (like Gothic 3), as mentioned before I am not expert but I don't recall of hearing of a no load MMOG before, maybe just me though. :)
Secondly they Unreal series of engines has not to my experience ever breached this technology before and certainly the first mainstream engine I have heard, plus the graphic level of quality and Unreal's ability to have great looking textures with excellent network capability is pretty cool at least from a technological standpoint. ;)

DAOC only had a few loading zones, big cities mostly. You could basically run from one end of a continent to the other without having to head for a zone line.

VG still feels like it has loading zones though. Every time you cross a chunk line (basically zone line) the game freezes up and whackyness can occur. It isn't seemless but much better than running towards a gate between two outside zones.

I would think VG can get 250k people. EQ2 had that for most of the last couple of years and they survived well on it and much content was released for it. VG is fun and there is a lot to keep people entertained for a long time to come. I am just not one of those people.

[Acleacius]

Only thing was EQ2 seemed to make sure there was solo content, not as much as WoW from reports but still it was a focus.

Yes there are problems, I lose my pet occasionally but the game is a new engine just released it isn't that bad.
So far I haven't seen a loading screen but it does studder like G3 when a new area loads, though many people said G3 was not bad once you got over 2 gig of RAM and it's quite possible Vanguard is similar. :)

[Moriendor]

Ok additionally in case anyone cares Vanguard is a no loading zone game (like Gothic 3), as mentioned before I am not expert but I don't recall of hearing of a no load MMOG before, maybe just me though.

Vanguard certainly does have (invisible) loading zones like any MMO as you go from area to area. Those areas are frequently (depending on the popularity of the area) powered by dedicated hardware even, i.e. you're basically handed off from one server to the next as you traverse zones. That's also the most likely reason why you're losing your pet. It's a very typical problem when you cross a server boundary that your pet will forget to follow you or stop responding to commands etc
Anyway, it's called a "persistent world" for a reason ;) . Most MMOs only have real loading zones when you actually leave the world (to go from one continent to another or when an instanced zone needs to be loaded etc).

Secondly they Unreal series of engines has not to my experience ever breached this technology before and certainly the first mainstream engine I have heard, plus the graphic level of quality and Unreal's ability to have great looking textures with excellent network capability is pretty cool at least from a technological standpoint. ;)

Lineage 2 is based on the Unreal 2 engine and Minions of Mirth is based on a heavily modded Quake (2?) engine. Just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. There may be more.

Only thing was EQ2 seemed to make sure there was solo content, not as much as WoW from reports but still it was a focus.

Yep. It did very quickly become a focus at least when SOE realized a few months after the game went live that they were losing players left, right and center because their game was 100% solo unfriendly in the beginning ;) .

So far I haven't seen a loading screen but it does studder like G3 when a new area loads, though many people said G3 was not bad once you got over 2 gig of RAM and it's quite possible Vanguard is similar.

While more RAM will most certainly never hurt, it is more likely that the stuttering is caused by network latency when you cross the above mentioned server boundaries (the hand-off from one server to the next server... just picture it as if you were an airplane that is going from one flight zone to another flight zone and is handed off from one air traffic controller to the next). Even WoW has that kind of "lag" (while WoW is otherwise a game that is definitely not overly demanding in the tech department and where more RAM doesn't solve that particular lag issue either). It's a server-side issue mostly.

[Acleacius]

Right I understnad what your saying about zones handing off and if your sure it's a loading zone then ok.
It didn't seem any different than G3 as I mentioned and it certinaly makes sense it could cause the pet loss.
Ahh if all MMOs are the same I didn't realise it, I could have sworn EQ1 (did a short trial) and EQ2 about 6 months (a year or more ago) had loading zones, thanks for clearing that up. :)

Ok how about this, the Unreal 3 engine is amazing, what they are doing with per pixel lighting just blows me away.
The mapping is stunning, think about the way water reflects in games then imagine the whole world takes on that same princpal.
When you start to see a sunset with purples, blues and oranges then imagine how those lights efffect the landscape in the RL taking on hues with different types of surfaces whether is white sands, brownish mountians or green fields all are simulated by giving off lighting based on the absorbtion of world lighting.

Unreal has always had the best looking skies and now they are taking that accomplishment and adding to every texture in a game, as far as I can see. :stunning:

Lets hope someone makes an RPG with this engine, please oh pleasae let it happen. ;)

[Arma]

Indeed. Let more RPG developers licence a rather I believe costy graphical technology so they make more shooter-like RPGs. We never have enough of those.

[Acleacius]

Ahh, so Vanguard is now a shooter-like RPG, intresting.
You mean sort of like Deus Ex that piece of crap RPG shooter?
Oh I know you meant Fallout and Fallout 2 those piece of crap RPG shooters, right?

To think any dev looking for high quality grapical engine and network cappable code to make an RPG could have made a mistake.

Can anyone imagine the piece of crap Gothc 3 might have turned out to be had PB been able to afford an engine instead of being forced to use a frankenstein engine?
I am so glad that jowood was too broke to afford the Unreal engine, man it just brings a tear to my eye.

[Dhruin]

I don't think that they are aiming that high realistically. If the usual sources are to be believed then it looks like D&D Online barely ever broke the 100K barrier so if Sigil is realistic (which they must be since they intentionally made Vanguard with "hardcore" players in mind) then they must know that they can call themselves lucky if they can get that same 100K.

Acleacius sent in a news link that proves they aren't as smart as you credit them:

He says he’s going after “players who are looking for something deeper, more like a home.” He adds, “I don’t expect to get six or seven million players, but if we have 500,000 by the end of the year and keep growing after that, I’ll be happy.”

NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/07/arts/11schi.html?ex=1171602000&en=d8b5ae416c6d973a&ei=5070)

[Arma]

I did not say Vanguard is a shooter like RPG, neither are FO or FO2. Deus Ex is a good example, though.

While it may be true that using a platform as opposed an inhouse engine may look like a good idea, I guess a few things in your little scenario - 1) probably not always an existing engine can be made to do what the developers want it to do (i.e Unreal 3 engine to power Gothic 3) and 2) - PB, who I have absolutely nothing personal against, probably would have messed the release of an Unreal 3 Engine G3 as well, even if not worse, as they released it using the other engine (which is also licenced. SO they probably had the option but found it way too expensive), based on evidence that release day Gothic and Gothic 2 were not the most polished of games, as far as I remember.

[Acleacius]

Afaik Unreal would work for any format but as you mentioned it's probably quite pricey. :)
I love a good RGP and it certainly isn't required to have great graphics but I can't think of a single RPG made with a state of the art engine like Unreal's, I wouldn't be all over in a heartbeat.
Just imagine how great games like PlaneScape or Fallout would be on state of the art engine, woot!
Errr, of course I mean like they are now in every respect with just new graphics, certainly not say bethesda's vision of Fallout with a good (not great) engine, well at least with their track record. ;)

One thing about an engine like Unreal is its life expectancy is usually at least 4 years, so what we are seeing now is only what most PCs can handle, atm.

I would say from what little I know that had PB for example had been given Unreal 3 cost not being any factor and unless their engine is similar creation methods they could have spent 6 months learning it, but with their unmatched skill at geo architecture they could/would have created the best looking game world ever seen to date and maybe for several years to come. :)

[Ionstormsucks]

I'm sorry to say it, but Vanguard is a mess at the moment. In some nostalgic EQ1 mood I bought the game, and have to say that I just cannot recommend anyone to buy the game. Not because it's not good, but because it's just damn buggy. There are a lot of people who are experiencing major problems with that game. Plus we're talkung about SOE here, the masters of non-existing customer-service.

On a side-note... only SOE manages to offer a digital download without a resume function. Ah well, isn't that bad, you can resume the files anyway... they are just all corrupted afterwards and you won't be able to install the game. Ah, no problem... it's only 7 gigs. So you can either download again (and there are good chances that you'll get a corrupted file again), or you can just use the Vanguard patcher that will download the uncompressed game files, which are around 17 gigs. YAY!!!

[Guest 13245]

I play Vanguard, and it is not solo unfriendly, not to me at least. I soloed all the way through beta up to lvl 24(only grouped once briefly for 10 minutes), and had no problem doing it(I played a psionicist, other classes may be worse or better at soloing). I am having no problem at all after release in soloing either with my psionicist character who is lvl 15 now.

[Acleacius]

Dang thats a bummer Ionstormsucks, it's a huge download for sure biggest I ever downloaded and I think its actually 9 gigs, 16gig installed/uncompressed. :(

Guest12345, I played the Necro and was also able to play up to 20th range though and feel i could have higher easily and I am playing EQ2 EoF atm, but am thinking of getting a dual accout (not sure the proper name).

Anyone know about this and how it works, you pay something like $25 a month instead of the $15 a month and you can play multiplue titles off the $25 instead of having 2 or more accounts at $15 each?
Thanks. :)

[Ionstormsucks]

Anyone know about this and how it works, you pay something like $25 a month instead of the $15 a month and you can play multiplue titles off the $25 instead of having 2 or more accounts at $15 each?
Thanks. :)

Try this link http://StationAccess.com.

[Acleacius]

Thanks. :)

Too bad, it doesn't seem to include Vanguard. :(

[Moriendor]

Thanks. :)

Too bad, it doesn't seem to include Vanguard. :(

Vanguard may not be a part of that Station Access Collection box that they are advertising on the front page (which includes most of the Station Access games on CD/DVD and 30 days of free play time for each game) but it is a part of the Station Access subscription plan for $24.99/month (or $29.99 as of April this year). You get access to Vanguard, SWG, EQ 2, EQ, EQOA, Planetside, MxO and some other casual Station games with the All Access subscription plan.

[Acleacius]

Should have checked this sooner, your right Moriendor.
It's what people inmy guild have told me too, they use since our guild is in both.

Thanks for the heads up! :)