Dragonrage 2 is the best written rpg since cryscape:tearment

[SAGO]

So understand the weight intended when I make the following statement: To me, Dragon Age II is the best written game since Planescape: Torment.

Excellent trolling or terrifingly serious?

http://www.gamerswithjobs.com/node/107852

[purpleblob]

So understand the weight intended when I make the following statement: To me, Dragon Age II is the best written game since Planescape: Torment.

Trolling. End of discussion.

[SAGO]

Trolling. End of discussion.

care to explain why?

[Khalus]

Trolling...I thought it was crap!

[txa1265]

care to explain why?

Sadly I don't think he was trolling ... Elysium has been around for a while. Exactly why he was smitten with DA2 and the blatant 3-choice cliches and didn't 'click' with the Witcher who knows, but it is obvious he is buying what they are selling ... ugh.

[purpleblob]

care to explain why?

No meaningful choices in DA2

In Torment, what TNO do affect the world e.g. the whole curst moves into different plane. What you do in DA2, don't even affect your companions most of the time. No matter what you do, both Meredith and Orsino goes nuts and attacks you. No matter what you do, Anders blows up chantry etc.

That is not "well-written" game. Ok, he might not be trolling, he is voicing his opinion. But I think that statement was just absurd.

[Corwin]

Please don't feed the trolls!!

[SAGO]

No meaningful choices in DA2

In Torment, what TNO do affect the world e.g. the whole curst moves into different plane. What you do in DA2, don't even affect your companions most of the time. No matter what you do, both Meredith and Orsino goes nuts and attacks you. No matter what you do, Anders blows up chantry etc.

That is not "well-written" game. Ok, he might not be trolling, he is voicing his opinion. But I think that statement was just absurd.

but doesn't curst move back anyway? regardless of what you do? (only played it once)

i have to agree with you though, like in all biowear games i've played, the choice is an illusion or the choice leads to a consequence thats so petty it might as well be consequenceless. either way, its an amusing article that will be forgotten.

[bloodlover]

It's very sad if he's serious... But I think he's a troll. I like to think that NOBODY is that stupid.

[JDR13]

There have been games as well written since PS:T, imo, but I don't think DA2 is one of them..

[DoctorNarrative]

DA2 actually has a really awesome overall plot and situation. The Qunari in act two and the mages vs. templars in act three are both intense and well thought out scenarios that are the perfect setting for drama. Anders and Varric are also great characters who, at least in Anders' case, are very well written and have dramatic storylines.

Unfortunately a lot of the actual dialog is so-so, and the Hawke story (which is the focus) is actually below average, in my opinion. So it ends up being a mish-mash of great and iffy, resulting in "good." And then "good" is further crapped on by the terrible dialogue system.

[Dasale]

I never succeed play PS:T further than first parts, and always found dialogs and beginning of story boring. So I'm not qualified to comment here but if DA2 plot base is ambitious, the development of the story/stories is ok only few time it's good. Also it's a bit better than in DAO to offer some choices not too much black or white but it's still not that well setup or interesting than in The Witcher or some (great) morale choices of MotB. But myself in no way I would link it to the dialog system, for me there's no link.

[Roi Danton]

I never succeed play PS:T further than first parts, and always found dialogs and beginning of story boring. So I'm not qualified to comment here but if DA2 plot base is ambitious, the development of the story/stories is ok only few time it's good. Also it's a bit better than in DAO to offer some choices not too much black or white but it's still not that well setup or interesting than in The Witcher or some (great) morale choices of MotB. But myself in no way I would link it to the dialog system, for me there's no link.

There is no link with the dialog system because it does not matter what mechanic the system has if the overall writing is good or bad. I actually don't care if there is dialog wheel, full text choices or four bearded monkeys to choose from as long as the writing is good.
It's the same thing with choice (choice in the story, not to confuse with gameplay choices). A hundred bad written choices are far worse than a well written story without choice. It's the quality and the element of fun one has playing the game that matters not the size or levels or story branches or whatever.

[DoctorNarrative]

There is no link with the dialog system because it does not matter what mechanic the system has if the overall writing is good or bad. I actually don't care if there is dialog wheel, full text choices or four bearded monkeys to choose from as long as the writing is good.

The simple dialogue summaries though often cause me to say the wrong thing, even with the icons. That is a functional issue that makes them much worse than full text.

[Dasale]

The simple dialogue summaries though often cause me to say the wrong thing, even with the icons. That is a functional issue that makes them much worse than full text.
Ok that's how you see it myself I got too often irritated by the result of a dialog choice that I didn't expect in DAO. So I understand the pleasure to read the full text and then hear the voice actor repeat it, but I'm not fully sensible to the argument, yeah just me.

If the story or stories aren't that good it's because they aren't that good, not because of players choices during dialogs. But again it's just my point of view.

[txa1265]

The simple dialogue summaries though often cause me to say the wrong thing, even with the icons. That is a functional issue that makes them much worse than full text.

Exactly - when you have to save before dialogues not to try to 'game the system', but because you can't trust that what you THINK are your role-playing correct choices are having inverse impact. Or maybe it is just that that friend/rivalry system is FUBAR.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

These short "summaries" f the dialog options are just ... too short for my complex thinking. It's like ... as if they were trying to put all of the ethical, philosophical and (in-game) theological implications of MY (in my role as the character) thoughts in to 3 words.

You just can't shorten a philosophical dialog with 3 words.

But ... on the other side ... one chose a certain way to deal with the Gordian Knot - and he most certainly way a warrior.
Not a thinker or a philosopher or anything else in that direction.

Which could imply - design-wise - that the team of Bioware thought that Warriors (like Hawke) ALWAYS use only 3 words - or at least think in them. Like dealing with the Gordian Knot.

On the other way, PS:T is the Thinker's dream. Absolutely. And the Philosopher's Dream also. And the one of those loving theological dispurtes as well.

Both games are very different in their design-philosophies :

Dragon Age 2 = "Warrior-Game"
Planescape : Torment = "Philosopher-Game"

That's a fundamental difference, imho.

[SAGO]

These short "summaries" f the dialog options are just … too short for my complex thinking. It's like … as if they were trying to put all of the ethical, philosophical and (in-game) theological implications of MY (in my role as the character) thoughts in to 3 words.

You just can't shorten a philosophical dialog with 3 words.

But … on the other side … one chose a certain way to deal with the Gordian Knot - and he most certainly way a warrior.
Not a thinker or a philosopher or anything else in that direction.

Which could imply - design-wise - that the team of Bioware thought that Warriors (like Hawke) ALWAYS use only 3 words - or at least think in them. Like dealing with the Gordian Knot.

On the other way, PS:T is the Thinker's dream. Absolutely. And the Philosopher's Dream also. And the one of those loving theological dispurtes as well.

Both games are very different in their design-philosophies :

Dragon Age 2 = "Warrior-Game"
Planescape : Torment = "Philosopher-Game"

That's a fundamental difference, imho.

or it could be that they lazy and were aiming at the 'lowest common denominator' in order to capitalize on the prievious gaymes success very quickly?

[Captain Buzzkill]

The paraphrased dialogue wheel does make things worse, in my opinion. Because it's not the actual dialogue, it further separates the character from the player. It reduces immersion and decreases the emotional resonance you might otherwise have with NPCs and your companions. If you're like me, which would be very sad, then you know there is a huge benefit to having an unvoiced main protagonist. Because everything has to be written out and thoroughly read, you develop your own voice for the character. Everything that's written down develops its own tone and tempo in your head, and it makes the character more and more yours. In Dragon Age 2, you're a passive participant in the conversation, reduced to clicking a button that basically corresponds to, "Say something nice," "Say something snarky," or "Be a douchebag," and then someone else actually says it. Games like PS:T and Fallout had these options as well, but they also had class, ability, and - in the case of Fallout - sex dependent dialogue options. You had the ability to lie and outwit your opponents, or be clever - or not, if you were playing a character with low intelligence.

Some of the dialogue options that I see on the wheel, I wind up saying them in my head. Only Hawke sounds more like Sloth from "The Goonies." It just ruins the whole conversation for me.

[Dasale]

These short "summaries" f the dialog options are just … too short for my complex thinking. It's like … as if they were trying to put all of the ethical, philosophical and (in-game) theological implications of MY (in my role as the character) thoughts in to 3 words.

You just can't shorten a philosophical dialog with 3 words…
Is it really the depth of the dialog before, or the depth of the last dialog choice that matter when you end with 2 or 3 choices for your answer? If your dialog choice is a choice among 2 or 3 complex and deep choices, I wonder if really that many players will get it. And because of that I wonder if really many RPG design team build that sort of dialog choices. In MotB it was the few morale dilema that was interesting, not the pick among one of the last few choices.

[bloodlover]

Besides the obvious downfall of DA 2 (and most modern cRPG's for that matter), in this new era we get SPOKEN DIALOGUES. Could you even imagine the amount of resources (not only financial) that would have been needed in order to make PST full voiced?

Maybe for the new generation that likes games like DA 2 spoken dialogues is important but they are missing the fact that a well written "wall of text" might be more complicated and fun to (role)play. Not to mention that your answers WILL/MIGHT actually have a real effect.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

My main, personal, worst problem woth the dialogs in Dragon Age 2 was - I played the demo in my own language, of course, although I perhaps should've done it in English as well - was that the short "summary" sometimes didn't contain at all what I intended.

The problem with this is that these 3 or so words are so much vague, that they can be interpreted in various ways.

And obviously i interpreted them in some places in ways that the game didn't intend to.

To me, that's a clear break between the role I'm supposed to play, and the role that the game wants to play (for me).

[Dasale]

Is really have the full sentences for dialogs would improve them? It's hard to say without to try, I don't think so for me because I don't even quote there's a new system. And as I mentioned I feel long sentences can be more perversely ambiguous.

But well is this system make the story and dialogs less good, I don't think so but it's hard to be sure.

The roleplay in dialogs is also something I don't share, that could explain the difference of point of view. There is never the sentence in dialog options for my roleplay so I gave up trying a careful roleplay through dialog. And anyway the point is I don't feel the choice are subtle by themselves but because of the whole context the dialog setup before.

[purpleblob]

Each to their own. But for me, yes, full dialogue would have been nicer.

I had trouble with dialogue wheel in ME2, and DA2 was worse. ME2 used red/blue to show renegade/paragon option, so even though I didn't get dialogues I imagined, the result is what I wanted (most of the time). In DA2, when I choose jest icon sometimes it sounds more like an insult to whoever you are talking to, flirt button sounds absolutely awakward, it was just terrible.

And sometimes, I hate the whole "fully voiced" game. It limits your dialogue options. Like bloodlover pointed out, you CANNOT voice amount of dialogues in Torment (not that many games have that much dialogue in 1st place). Obvious result, less dialogues, less companions in game.

[DeepO]

Dragon Age 2 is bad.

Planescape: Torment, on the other hand...
All games can be nitpicked one way or the other, finishing Torment rulez hard. Who´s indifferent http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXv95nrat_s

[rune_74]

[QUOTE=DeepO;1061057635]Dragon Age 2 is bad.

QUOTE]

Thats your opinion.

[DeepO]

[QUOTE=DeepO;1061057635]Dragon Age 2 is bad.

QUOTE]

Thats your opinion.

It is, indeed.

[Roi Danton]

My main, personal, worst problem woth the dialogs in Dragon Age 2 was - I played the demo in my own language, of course, although I perhaps should've done it in English as well - was that the short "summary" sometimes didn't contain at all what I intended.

The problem with this is that these 3 or so words are so much vague, that they can be interpreted in various ways.

And obviously i interpreted them in some places in ways that the game didn't intend to.

To me, that's a clear break between the role I'm supposed to play, and the role that the game wants to play (for me).

But there are also the same problems with a full dialog system: How will the npc interpret what I just said? If you have only fully written dialog choices you have to assume that everything is meant deadly serious. Because sarcasm, irony or humor is up to interpretation (I actually had that problem in a few games where I said something that was IMO appropriate and the other bloke attacked me because the game writer didn't think my choice was sarcastic but rather an insult or meant serious). With the dialog wheel/the symbols you can at least see how your response is meant.

My problem with the new dialog system is that there is nearly no way to talk yourself out of a given situation (as possible in NWN, Fallout New Vegas, Gothic, etc) although I feel that this is a design choice and not a real problem with the dialog system.

[Dasale]

Each to their own. But for me, yes, full dialogue would have been nicer.

I had trouble with dialogue wheel in ME2, and DA2 was worse. ME2 used red/blue to show renegade/paragon option, so even though I didn't get dialogues I imagined, the result is what I wanted (most of the time). In DA2, when I choose jest icon sometimes it sounds more like an insult to whoever you are talking to, flirt button sounds absolutely awakward, it was just terrible.

And sometimes, I hate the whole "fully voiced" game. It limits your dialogue options. Like bloodlover pointed out, you CANNOT voice amount of dialogues in Torment (not that many games have that much dialogue in 1st place). Obvious result, less dialogues, less companions in game.

The problem of voice acting vs text dialog is quite more important for the NPC dialogs than the character dialogs. Long dialogs in PS:T aren't the character dialogs but NPC dialogs.

Overall the main character voice acting is just a little detail when compared to all other NPC voice acting.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Because sarcasm, irony or humor is up to interpretation

I agree.

And this is especially a problem with Autists, who have problems with intepreting into these directions, as far as I know.

And developers just don't think of them - they don't think in terms of minorities anyways, because minorities (among gamers) = too much work = too much costs.


I just wanted to give an example of my own ways of interpreting :

The English word "mind", for example, is so vague - compared to the German language - that there doesn't exist a direct translation for it in the German language. "Mind" can be translated with the rather older word of "Gemüt" Ive seen that, ctually), with "Geist", and with "brain", ith a much more physical ote.

However - and here we come to my second example - the word "Geist" is so "straight" that the German language has another problem : It can ONLY be interpreted as "ghost" or as ... "spirit". Well, what's going on in your mind ... on a rather spiritual level, but also on the level of Thinking in general. Thinking and Geist are closely related to one aother".

However, the English language has *several* words for which there exists only ONE word in the German language : Ghost, Spectre, Wraith, Spirit etc. ... All of them are only "Geist" in the Germn language. there simply is no ther translation possible.
Which implies - as I think - that from YOUR perspective, the German word o "Geist" is so vague it cn be translated in TOO many different ways ... The similar problem that we have with "mind" in the German language.

These are nothing but interpretations.

And if I'm a language-sensitive person, then I must ALSO keep in mind that these are only TRANLATONS of something that was originally written in the English lnguage - and that these English words CAN be interpreted b professional translaters and that some meaning(s) of the ORIGINAL word might have gone LOST ... The worse the wose the transltors are. I think you know it from foreign games yourself.

The average gamer, however, just isn't language-sensitive, I assume.
They just take things for granted - and literally. Translations, I mean.
So, if in a dialogue the *original* intention got lost during the translation process, the foreign gamer might activate a cvertain dialogue option - and is surprised that the ctual reslt isn't as expected.
But the underlying engine just still carries this dialogue decision on. Even if it i a distorted -> wrong decision.

Hence my opinion that 3 words are just too vague - they leave imho too much room for interpretation.

This is my opinion on the matter. and that mor detailed ording would make interpretation much easier.
Apart from things like Irony, Sarcasm etc. .

[DoctorNarrative]

But there are also the same problems with a full dialog system: How will the npc interpret what I just said? If you have only fully written dialog choices you have to assume that everything is meant deadly serious. Because sarcasm, irony or humor is up to interpretation (I actually had that problem in a few games where I said something that was IMO appropriate and the other bloke attacked me because the game writer didn't think my choice was sarcastic but rather an insult or meant serious). With the dialog wheel/the symbols you can at least see how your response is meant.

My problem with the new dialog system is that there is nearly no way to talk yourself out of a given situation (as possible in NWN, Fallout New Vegas, Gothic, etc) although I feel that this is a design choice and not a real problem with the dialog system.

There's a HUGE difference between worrying how an NPC will take what I say and worrying about what my character will actually say. HUGE difference. The former could be argued as part of the game, managing personalities and suffering the effects of yours. The latter is game-breaking, making me say things I did not want to say and suffering the consequences of those inaccurate sayings.

There were many times in DA2 where what I would say was unclear. The little red fist tells me I am angry but who am I angry at? Doesn't say. So when Meredith tells me every mage is a blood mage and my angry choice says "are they?" does that mean I will ask her to prove it or does it mean I will tell her she's full of shit or does it mean I am shocked and appalled they all are and we should kill them immediately? I HAVE NO IDEA.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

The little red fist could also just be a plain Communist logo - directly out of the USSR.

And I must admit that this was my very first, instant association with it.

[SAGO]

i always thought the 'humor' in Biowear games was simple enough that anyone could understand it or at least make a person ''wts? was that meant to be funny?''. Sometimes theyre just unintentionally funny, e.g, like the awakward animation that always takes place in their games like that song leliana sings in DA where the lip sync is completely out of touch with the song.

[txa1265]

i always thought the 'humor' in Biowear games

I was enjoying bantar between Merrill and Isabella last night when it occurred to me that the exchange was nearly identical to something between Mission and Bastilla in KotOR ... if Merrill had tripped Isabella using magic I think I would have cried ...

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Hm, yes, the banter - okay. I found the banter between Shale / Morrigan hilarious, and the same with Morrigan / the Dwarf ... ;)

[JDR13]

If you like the humerous side of the banter in DA:O then make sure you play DA: Awakening. I found the banter in particular to be superior in the expansion, especially the funny stuff.

[DoctorNarrative]

The party banter is very good in DA2 as well. That's certainly not one the areas they lost ground on.

[Damian Mahadevan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXv95nrat_s

Who made this music? Thats pretty awesome.

[txa1265]

... I was not being overly complimentary - it is decent, but much of it is as original as 'warehouse #41' being identical to the previous 40 warehouses and so on ... or as original as Bastilla felt after following Lady Aribeth around for 80 hours ... ;)

[DeepO]

Who made this music? Thats pretty awesome.

Mark Morgan. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Morgan)
He also made music for the first two Fallouts for example.

[Damian Mahadevan]

Mark Morgan. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Morgan)
He also made music for the first two Fallouts for example.

Allods online? Dammit looks like a game i might try for the music alone.

[Maylander]

To be honest, the writing is pretty good in DA2. That's hardly where it fails. The plot is generally interesting, and the characters are fairly well written. Best writing since PS: T? Probably not, as Obsidian pretty much always trumps BioWare when it comes to writing, but it's probably the best non-Obsidian game since PS: T.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

If you like the humerous side of the banter in DA:O then make sure you play DA: Awakening. I found the banter in particular to be superior in the expansion, especially the funny stuff.

Thanks. :)

I'm planning to buy the "ultimate" package anyway.

[JDR13]

Probably not, as Obsidian pretty much always trumps BioWare when it comes to writing, but it's probably the best non-Obsidian game since PS: T.

Better than The Witcher? I find that hard to believe.

[txa1265]

To be honest, the writing is pretty good in DA2. That's hardly where it fails. The plot is generally interesting, and the characters are fairly well written. Best writing since PS: T? Probably not, as Obsidian pretty much always trumps BioWare when it comes to writing, but it's probably the best non-Obsidian game since PS: T.

Aside from my feeling that The Witcher fills the "best non-Obsidian game since PS: T." slot ...

My issue is that - as mentioned with the banter - the development cycle was so short that while the main story and characters were all fleshed out along with content to last you for dozens of hours ... everything is like the mansion / dungeon / cliff-space / warehouse. In other words, it is all copy & paste from the 'great tome of Bioware tropes'.

Bioware has always had good writing, so it is good here. But there is so much 'filler' - the little item non-quests, the fact that 99% of battles are what Jeff Vogel called 'trash mobs', that I have heard near-identical banter from other Bioware games popping up here ... it all just combines to accentuate just how much of a rush-job the game is.

[Maylander]

Well, I'm one of few around here that considers TW overrated, so yes, I do rate DA2 above TW. The point still remains: There aren't many games that do writing better than DA2, aside from Obsidian games.

[DoctorNarrative]

Well, I'm one of few around here that considers TW overrated, so yes, I do rate DA2 above TW. The point still remains: There aren't many games that do writing better than DA2, aside from Obsidian games.

You know... you might be right. As disappointing as I found the choices and the ending scenes there is very strong writing in DA2. It's certainly not the game's weak point, that is clear.

I don't think it's the best non-Obsidian RPG writing since Planescape though. For one thing DA: Origins is better, if you ask me.

[Drithius]

Unfortunately, writing is only one part of any RPG. Otherwise, I'd just pick up a book.

[JDR13]

Unfortunately, writing is only one part of any RPG. Otherwise, I'd just pick up a book.

Exactly… which is probably why PS:T doesn't rate as highly with me as it does with many others. The dialogue was terrific, but I found much of the actual gameplay to be meh..

[DoctorNarrative]

Unfortunately, writing is only one part of any RPG. Otherwise, I'd just pick up a book.

Of course.

And it's not even interactive writing, since the story is so linear and the choices so irrelevant. Which is a shame.

[Captain Buzzkill]

Exactly… which is probably why PS:T doesn't rate as highly with me as it does with many others. The dialogue was terrific, but I found much of the actual gameplay to be meh..

Whereas the writing and execution of a story are more important to me than just about anything else, because I love books so much. Reading a story is good, but actively participating in a story is so much better.

[Dasale]

To be honest, the writing is pretty good in DA2. That's hardly where it fails. The plot is generally interesting, and the characters are fairly well written. Best writing since PS: T? Probably not, as Obsidian pretty much always trumps BioWare when it comes to writing, but it's probably the best non-Obsidian game since PS: T.

I haven't finished DA2 yet so don't have your global point of view. But I finished chapter 2 so already have a large point of view of the game.

I think that the story telling quality is uneven and the writing quality is uneven. There are some very well done part like the serial murder quest, the story around the Quanry, some companions quests, and more. Also the end of chapter and beginning of next chapter are good emotion with a nice part of nostalgia. How this is done setup well the few years past since previous chapter. The little story complement for each companions plus all the letters related to past choices build very well some emotion with a bit of nostalgia. All that points are quite good story telling and story writing.

But it's uneven, there's quite many quests that are rather average from story point of view, the companions are attaching but tend to lack of strength. Companions participation to the general adventure is better but for all the material spread the result efficiency is weak. For example, often with much less material used, BG1 could setup much stronger companions.

And one point decrease the whole game efficiency and it's all about story telling and writing quality. With DA2 Bioware changed totally their global plot structure to try something using less long linear sequences. Instead of some long sequences, each chapter (1&2) spread multiple shorter sequences, they mean little stories less long, and this try to setup a global web building a sort of non linear story. The intention is here and that difficult approach can work very well, but here it doesn't work that well. I think they tried innovate in they story telling but didn't succeed very well in this attempt. Chapter 1 suffer a lot of it, and Chapter 2 suffer in part of it.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Do you know what "adventure books" are ?

For TDE, they exist for quite a long time, and even in the RPG genre the idea is not new : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_Wolf_(gamebooks)

You read a section, then you have to make a choice, wich leads you to page 25 or to page 365, for example … And they are still bo0oks.

And you get actual experience points for the pen & paper characters you play with these adventures - in TDE.

I even remember a book teaching me Geometry during my school time, which used the same mechanic … And I also have a similar book on one of my shelves called "Odyssey" …

I don't know whether these "Solo Adventures", as they are called for TDE, exist for (A)D&D or/and other systems as well ?

[purpleblob]

To be honest, the writing is pretty good in DA2. That's hardly where it fails. The plot is generally interesting, and the characters are fairly well written. Best writing since PS: T? Probably not, as Obsidian pretty much always trumps BioWare when it comes to writing, but it's probably the best non-Obsidian game since PS: T.

I don't know… I didn't find DA2 story all that compelling. I thought it's rather ridiculous.

All incidents in Kirkwall could be easily avoided if the city was not populated by people with extreme personality disorder. Clearly, everyone can see Meredith and Anders are nuts. Qunari incident could have been solved if Isabela decided to use her brain did somethign about relics earlier rather than waiting 4 freaking years to build up so much tension. Could have made difference if Hawke's words were more influencial. Couldn't change Arishok, Anders nor Meredith, and didn't even seen trustworthy to Isabela until it was too late.

Also, about 90% of quests involved freaking blood mage/templar. You would think without templars and blood mages, the whole Kirkwall will be empty. Oh, and bandits. If I were Hawke, I would have left Kirkwall long time ago.

The plot wasn't quite so predictable as other Bioware games but that doesn't make story good. I was always satisfied with companion writings, so no complaints there but no surprise either.

[Dasale]

I don't know… I didn't find DA2 story all that compelling. I thought it's rather ridiculous. All incidents in Kirkwall could be easily avoided if the city was not populated by people with extreme personality disorder. Clearly, everyone can see Meredith and Anders are nuts...
Sure some B..h was nuts for ton of people, and still got two president mandate...

Myself from chapter 1&2 point of view I felt the story more interesting than the usual save the world, and not at all ridiculous. For Isabella choice, the game provides you many hints she is slightly insane, remember when you meet her and how she trigger the fight? And you get quite more hints about her personality. So no, have her behave that stupidly is in total logic of her personality. And I don't see anybody able to influence her, again that's her obvious personality. Sure if you know the future then you could decide kill her but you aren't supposed to know the future.

[SAGO]

Sure some B..h was nuts for ton of people, and still got two president mandate…

Myself from chapter 1&2 point of view I felt the story more interesting than the usual save the world, and not at all ridiculous. For Isabella choice, the game provides you many hints she is slightly insane, remember when you meet her and how she trigger the fight? And you get quite more hints about her personality. So no, have her behave that stupidly is in total logic of her personality. And I don't see anybody able to influence her, again that's her obvious personality. Sure if you know the future then you could decide kill her but you aren't supposed to know the future.

depends on how you interpret her, she gave the impression (to me) that she has a very 'live and let live' sort of personality and didn't dwell on things too much, not because she is a shallow person but rather an appropriate way to live in an eviroment where life for the majority is crap and getting killed for money is somewhat the norm.

[Dasale]

Do you know what "adventure books" are ?
…
I don't know whether these "Solo Adventures", as they are called for TDE, exist for (A)D&D or/and other systems as well ?
Some have been port on iPad, I played few, and it didn't age much so it's good to play, well read is more exact. But it's not amazing entertainment.

A guy tried create a new series (Gamebook Adventures by Tin Man), still on iPad. I played the first, Gamebook Adventures 1: An Assassin in Orlandes. I felt it a bit more interesting than other, the choices and consequences was well developed and highlighted. But again it's mainly reading plus a bit of gaming, and not much links with RPG video games.

EDIT: I didn't mention but I played ton of them in real book format, but that's long ago.

[Dasale]

depends on how you interpret her, she gave the impression (to me) that she has a very 'live and let live' sort of personality and didn't dwell on things too much, not because she is a shallow person but rather an appropriate way to live in an eviroment where life for the majority is crap and getting killed for money is somewhat the norm.
Well Merrill is a sort of mystery, I agree that her apparent naivety is to link more with a different way of living she isn't used to. Perhaps the writers caricature it a bit too much. But the point is it let feel to be in total opposition with her courage to go against the whole clan for convictions. This putting her in a position between fanatics and people that have the courage to make stuff move despite all obstacles.

[Pessimeister]

Mask of the Betrayer. /end of thread. (Seriously, it's a ridiculous meritless claim.)

@ Alrik - You make a good connection there about gamebooks. I'm a collector of them actually (Have all Fighting Fantasies and the first 18 LoneWolf). They were definitely the main catalyst for me as a kid for getting into role-playing games.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

The Lone Wolf books are currently being reprinted or so. At the last RPC their author was there for a signing sessen, but alas I idn't have enough money anymore with me.

And … well, as I said before, they are relatively popular (in printed form, of course !) for the TDE system.

Sad that so few TDE stuff is translated yet …

[Pessimeister]

Most of the fans will probably know about Project Aon (a collection of online versions of Joe Dever's Lone Wolf work) but just in case you don't:

http://www.projectaon.org/

[SAGO]

Well Merrill is a sort of mystery, I agree that her apparent naivety is to link more with a different way of living she isn't used to. Perhaps the writers caricature it a bit too much. But the point is it let feel to be in total opposition with her courage to go against the whole clan for convictions. This putting her in a position between fanatics and people that have the courage to make stuff move despite all obstacles.

i was talking about isabella

but now merril, she really is inconsistent, she is naive, forgetful, nervous and cannot see into other peoples motives very well yet she has a demon inside of her which have destroyed the minds and bodies of the most powerful mages yet she soehow has managed to exert enough control over the demon to retain herself. (and demons are masters of deceit)

i wouldn't be suprised if she was written by david gaider, seeing he wrote aerie from bg2seeing they share alot of similiarities

[ChienAboyeur]

care to explain why?

The major issue with dragon Age 2's story: it exhibits a defect in the Dragon Age Universe.

Typically, the life of a mage in this universe is too coercive to allow an adventurer character.

Mages can either live:
-in the Circle, under the supervision of a religious order.
-as an apostate, hunted down and distrusted.
-as a Grey Warden, a status allowing a certain degree of freedom.

Drawing heroes from the mages pool is like picturing an adventuring black slave in the 18th century US. It can not work. Too much suspension of disbelief required to get the story going.

Magick is perceived as a dangerous threat in most areas of the DA universe. It took a revolutionary prophetess to break the yoke imposed by magick, with the consequence that magick control is wrapped in religious beliefs.

The writers got glued in that quagmire: the story starts with a templar (a good man as said by his wife Aveline) pointing at the apostates who have just saved his life to end with an Abomination and a blood mage being publically known to Kirkwall Templar order. And what is supposed to happen between the two stages? A loosening up? No. The opposite: a tightening in the way of Kirkwall's templar order, already depicted as extremelly strict compared to the Fereldan order. It does not fit.

Running under the very nose of the templars at the Gallows with a party full of mages (all unregistered) did not make it for me (Act One)
The Araashad unable to spot mages sporting robes and staves just before the confrontation did not either. And so on... The story line is full of events that break the credibility of the situations. Because the life of a mage in DA universe is supposedly so restricted one can not extract a mage character, not only allowed to live a casual live, but also drawing attention while getting no response.

At no time, Kirkwall templar order tried to capture one of the mages present in the party. Too unbelievable to allow a good storytelling.

[Dasale]

i was talking about isabella

but now merril, she really is inconsistent, she is naive, forgetful, nervous and cannot see into other peoples motives very well yet she has a demon inside of her which have destroyed the minds and bodies of the most powerful mages yet she soehow has managed to exert enough control over the demon to retain herself. (and demons are masters of deceit)

i wouldn't be suprised if she was written by david gaider, seeing he wrote aerie from bg2seeing they share alot of similiarities

Sheehh now you post non codex like posts? The world is going mad, I always said it.

I agree it's a way to see Merrill, but look closely.

Didn't you listen too much the Fenris crap? Don't listen any word of him, he is obviously totally blind because of his hate and he is close to madness. I know Anders will say that too but again do you really think Anders is believable? One more totally blind because of his hate and madness but he hides it better than Fenris does.

So no, Merrill had no Demon inside her. No, Blood Magic doesn't require make a pact with a Demon, any people telling that and not mad is saying it from a second degree perspective looking at Blood Magic as pure evil.

But this is very far from truth. In case of Merrill quest and the point of view of the Archivist is that Merrill is in relation with the demon and the mirror and her quest of the past, and she thinks she will be manipulated by him. But the Archivist has too much love for Merrill and didn't learn have faith in her. Nothing proves the Archivist is right, no demon is in Merrill, and Merrill has the mental strength and purity to beat the demon at his own game particularly with the full support of Hawke. Yes this could have end in Merrill death and the Archivist took care it didn't happen, this time. But she steal Merrill her destiny. The truth is Merrill still has the mirror (for some quest alternatives) and enough determination to find any other demon and continue her quest. The Archivist attempt was so vain she understood nothing and that some values could worth the ultimate sacrifice of life. But no the Archivist stupid choice is pure egoism, but what Merrill was ready for and for what she was ready to, this had a totally other dimension. I really hope a DLC will allow her end her quest but I don't believe at all this DLC will ever be released.

Yeah probably Gaider give too many idea to this story but I'm bored of Gaider obsession to have dark or at least dark grey ends. In fact Merrill death but achieving her quest would have been an amazing end for her quest, very powerful emotionally, less dark in fact.

[Dasale]

The major issue with dragon Age 2's story: it exhibits a defect in the Dragon Age Universe..

I don't quote the whole I think it should be in a spoil tag, but it's just few posts above if you want the detail.

The argument about having an apostate walking under the nose of templar and don't believe it is an argument based on robes and staff. In fact only the staff is for the player an identification point, not even the robes.

But the point is it's clearly not an identification proof for the game world conventions only using magic is. And I don't remember in DAO mages was identified at sight because of carrying a staff. If during introduction the Templar point apostate it's because he saw them using magic.

I don't think the game transgress this, the only cases it happens in my play aren't always directly explained by the game but then you learn later good reason why this or this Templar didn't denunciate you before you had become the herault of the town. But at this point you are untouchable and your companions with you too.

Your second point is about blood magic, but again there's no way to identify a mage is using blood magic or is already possessed by a demon. Only saw him using blood magic or currently possessed are the proof of that. And clearly it didn't happened in cases you quoted.

But I do agree with you that the game convention for which someone with a staff isn't a point of identification of mage at sight, is a hard convention to accept. But it's a convention.

If you don't accept this convention then yes the game is broken but if you do, then it's quite different. And really the game gave you many points showing this convention, like this NPC or this NPC not identifying you as a mage because of your staff… until he see you using magic.

[SAGO]

Sheehh now you post non codex like posts? The world is going mad, I always said it.

I agree it's a way to see Merrill, but look closely.

Didn't you listen too much the Fenris crap? Don't listen any word of him, he is obviously totally blind because of his hate and he is close to madness. I know Anders will say that too but again do you really think Anders is believable? One more totally blind because of his hate and madness but he hides it better than Fenris does.

So no, Merrill had no Demon inside her. No, Blood Magic doesn't require make a pact with a Demon, any people telling that and not mad is saying it from a second degree perspective looking at Blood Magic as pure evil.

But this is very far from truth. In case of Merrill quest and the point of view of the Archivist is that Merrill is in relation with the demon and the mirror and her quest of the past, and she thinks she will be manipulated by him. But the Archivist has too much love for Merrill and didn't learn have faith in her. Nothing proves the Archivist is right, no demon is in Merrill, and Merrill has the mental strength and purity to beat the demon at his own game particularly with the full support of Hawke. Yes this could have end in Merrill death and the Archivist took care it didn't happen, this time. But she steal Merrill her destiny. The truth is Merrill still has the mirror (for some quest alternatives) and enough determination to find any other demon and continue her quest. The Archivist attempt was so vain she understood nothing and that some values could worth the ultimate sacrifice of life. But no the Archivist stupid choice is pure egoism, but what Merrill was ready for and for what she was ready to, this had a totally other dimension. I really hope a DLC will allow her end her quest but I don't believe at all this DLC will ever be released.

Yeah probably Gaider give too many idea to this story but I'm bored of Gaider obsession to have dark or at least dark grey ends. In fact Merrill death but achieving her quest would have been an amazing end for her quest, very powerful emotionally, less dark in fact.

i thought she had a demon inside of her when she said ''Yes, it was blood magic, but I know what I'm doing. The spirit helped us, didn't it?''

she said that after destroying the magic barrier

[Dasale]

i thought she had a demon inside of her when she said ''Yes, it was blood magic, but I know what I'm doing. The spirit helped us, didn't it?''

she said that after destroying the magic barrier
Well ok someone pointed me there's contradictory points about that in DAO. On one part the hero needs learn Blood Magic specialization from a demon. Something I had forget mainly because I used a mod to unlock specializations. So this is making a link with demons and blood magic. But on another way, Jowan seems have learn Blood Magic only by himself, without any pact with a demon.

But in both cases, in no way it means the mage using Blood Magic means he is possessed by a demon.

But I do agree your quote that happen when Merrill opens a magical barrier involves confusion.

If I remember well blood magic is more deeply explained in DAO. And if I remember well the point is blood only and not at all demons. But there's two danger about it that have made it a forbidden magic. First the blood could not be the mage blood this allowing easy abuse at depends of someone else life, and this making a Blood Mage potentially more dangerous for normal humans. The second point was that through blood magic the mage was gaining more power and then was attracting more powerful demons making possession and transform in abomination more frequent.

But once again there's the facts, the superstitions and the second degree. One example in a spoil that despite what DA2 seems thrown to player this direct and necessary link between Blood Magic and demon and possession is far to be obvious:
When Orsino transforms in abomination as soon as he is using blood magic, that could be just a desperate and mad attempt to deliberately transform in abomination and use a special blood magic for that. Some quotes highlight he and some previous mage of Kirkwall was studying a special Blood Magic. This special Blood Magic could also be the explanation why so many Kirkwall Blood Mage are able to summon demonic entities.

Also right before he made this desperate choice, Orsino explains the case is lost because more templar will come is they ever win this fight. From his point of view he was going to die anyway.

So I do agree have Merrill mention a spirit is troubling, possibly a second degree answer about the Hawke remark, but possibly something else. But overall if there's a general explanation it's more that in Kirkwall a special blood magic get developed and spread, there's many hints about that. But in no way I see how Merrill could be linked with that special Blood Magic. And once more Blood Magic never mean have an inner demon.

[SAGO]

Well ok someone pointed me there's contradictory points about that in DAO. On one part the hero needs learn Blood Magic specialization from a demon. Something I had forget mainly because I used a mod to unlock specializations. So this is making a link with demons and blood magic. But on another way, Jowan seems have learn Blood Magic only by himself, without any pact with a demon.

But in both cases, in no way it means the mage using Blood Magic means he is possessed by a demon.

But I do agree your quote that happen when Merrill opens a magical barrier involves confusion.

If I remember well blood magic is more deeply explained in DAO. And if I remember well the point is blood only and not at all demons. But there's two danger about it that have made it a forbidden magic. First the blood could not be the mage blood this allowing easy abuse at depends of someone else life, and this making a Blood Mage potentially more dangerous for normal humans. The second point was that through blood magic the mage was gaining more power and then was attracting more powerful demons making possession and transform in abomination more frequent.

But once again there's the facts, the superstitions and the second degree. One example in a spoil that despite what DA2 seems thrown to player this direct and necessary link between Blood Magic and demon and possession is far to be obvious:
When Orsino transforms in abomination as soon as he is using blood magic, that could be just a desperate and mad attempt to deliberately transform in abomination and use a special blood magic for that. Some quotes highlight he and some previous mage of Kirkwall was studying a special Blood Magic. This special Blood Magic could also be the explanation why so many Kirkwall Blood Mage are able to summon demonic entities.

Also right before he made this desperate choice, Orsino explains the case is lost because more templar will come is they ever win this fight. From his point of view he was going to die anyway.

So I do agree have Merrill mention a spirit is troubling, possibly a second degree answer about the Hawke remark, but possibly something else. But overall if there's a general explanation it's more that in Kirkwall a special blood magic get developed and spread, there's many hints about that. But in no way I see how Merrill could be linked with that special Blood Magic. And once more Blood Magic never mean have an inner demon.

im not reading that.

[Corwin]

Those who CAN, DO!!!!! :)

[ChienAboyeur]

The argument about having an apostate walking under the nose of templar and don't believe it is an argument based on robes and staff. In fact only the staff is for the player an identification point, not even the robes.

In another comment, I listed some of the occurrences breaking the illusion (spoilers warning is global)
It is not simply about attire characterization but also magic use. The Templars order is told to grow paranoid, seeking mage corruption within their own ranks (for justified causes) Yet they would not investigate companions of a rising battling figure (Hawke) Nobody reported magic use? Hawke and/or his sister use magic on their arrival (confrontation with the Fereldans wanting to force their way in, in an open place, day time, lots of witnesses


But the point is it's clearly not an identification proof for the game world conventions only using magic is. And I don't remember in DAO mages was identified at sight because of carrying a staff. If during introduction the Templar point apostate it's because he saw them using magic.

DA:O is a totally different setting.

It is a time of blight, therefore turmoil. King is dead, Conspiracies are going. Morrigan is the only apostate in the party (save possibly the hero who is a Grey Warden, a status that allows more liberty to mages, as they are sort of off limits for templars) and she is perfectly trained to avoid the templar threat. Wynne is an authorized mage on a mission for the Circle of magic.
The time action is short (we are learnt that the blight action is supposed to have lasted one year)
So nope, mages going around in this kind of context goes smoothly.
In DA:RtP, the setting is totally different. It spans over years in a city reported as hosting a most suspicious templar order.
Even the companions' attitude to each other is dubious. In DA:O, the emergency of the blight explains why companions put aside their differences. But over ten years, with no immediate threat at hand, it is totally a different story.


I don't think the game transgress this, the only cases it happens in my play aren't always directly explained by the game but then you learn later good reason why this or this Templar didn't denunciate you before you had become the herault of the town. But at this point you are untouchable and your companions with you too.

It goes way beyond that the total templar inaction.
Blood mages, corrupted mages are all secretive by necessity. Making it a necessity for templars to developp investigation activities.
Yet over the seven/ten years, no one of them is able to connect Hawke, his companions and the use of magic. Templars have no informants among the population.
Even better, the coterie is told to be very adverse to competition and yet, while Hawke and his sibling are the only thing resisting their efforts, the coterie did not give them in to the templar order.


Your second point is about blood magic, but again there's no way to identify a mage is using blood magic or is already possessed by a demon. Only saw him using blood magic or currently possessed are the proof of that. And clearly it didn't happened in cases you quoted.


I did not spot the second point.

But being an apostate is being a mage outside the supervision of a templar order, outside a circle of magic. It has little to do with blood magic, even though DA2 pictures apostates nearly as blood mages.
This makes that templars unable to characterize use of magic on a battle scene. They can not distinguish between a corpse burnt by a magical fire and a corpse burned by oil fire.



But I do agree with you that the game convention for which someone with a staff isn't a point of identification of mage at sight, is a hard convention to accept. But it's a convention.

If you don't accept this convention then yes the game is broken but if you do, then it's quite different. And really the game gave you many points showing this convention, like this NPC or this NPC not identifying you as a mage because of your staff… until he see you using magic.

It goes way beyond the attire.

The Araashad's example tells that. The Arishok has singled out Hawke as a bas-asalit an. He has an efficient intelligence service. Yet Hawke's befriending mages is a total surprise to an Araashad…
And at this point indeed, the attire plays a part. Hawke is known as a fighter, his companions for some of them are public figures. It takes a stretch for them not being able to associate the remaining companions with mages. I even favour the idea that mages in the game can go under a disguise attire in normal times. But during battle times? Nobody at the Ostagar camp could infer that a person with a staff and a robe is likely to be a mage? Big stretch...
Templars by necessity are used to investigating cases. And Hawke and his companions can go under the rader for seven years. Nobody gave them in. When in mind, the structuring around magic stems from religious beliefs. Nobody was willing to give in mages for salvation concerns. Great.

It is all about the level of secrecy the party manages to provide to their mages, while rising in glory and public knowledge, using magic openly and frequently and this in the Spanish Inquistion templar mode Kirkwall is said to become.

[Dasale]

I answered you in the other post with spoil you opened. To answer here quickly and very globally (see the spoil post for more details):

There's many many many clues that Meredith control only the circle an not at all the town unlike you seem pretend.

She is a threat and a power for the town because she command the templar but even Templars aren't fully on her side not fully motivated. Perhaps few but not even the majority.

All in all it's not at all Meredith rise of power but more Meredith fall.

[ChienAboyeur]

It is not about Meredith. Meredith is an extremistic templar.

The Templar normal purpose is to monitor mages, to prevent the exercise of magic outside the order supervision. This by religious beliefs.

Meredith and kirkwall make the matter worse as they are supposed to be extremelly oppressive, even by templar standards.

[Dasale]

It is not about Meredith. Meredith is an extremistic templar.

The Templar normal purpose is to monitor mages, to prevent the exercise of magic outside the order supervision. This by religious beliefs.

Meredith and kirkwall make the matter worse as they are supposed to be extremelly oppressive, even by templar standards.

And spoil and spoil, well better use the other thread if you want I answer about that point and I have an answer.

[ChienAboyeur]

Spoilers? more advertizing for the game. People need teasers. And they are teasers. Nothing that can not be found in a Bioware promotional...

[Dasale]

Spoilers? more advertizing for the game. People need teasers. And they are teasers. Nothing that can not be found in a Bioware promotional…

Ha ha ha. Please tell me your next favorite RPG. And your favorite forum, I'll give this game the treatment you deserve to DA2, and we will debate about spoil then.