Bethesda Softworks - Interview @ Shacknews

[Dhruin]

Pete Hines has been interviewed at Shacknews (http://www.shacknews.com/extras/2007/020807_petehines_1.x) following an Oblivion PS3 preview event, with the conversation ranging from that version through Bethsoft's approach to Fallout 3 over five pages:
Shack: You guys have your own trademark series so you're used to dealing with fan expectation, but is it different or intimidating working on a franchise like Fallout that already has such a built in reputation?
Pete Hines: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. For a couple of reasons. Number one is that we're treating it as if we made the first two, with the same care and attention we give to The Elder Scrolls, but the truth of the matter is that we haven't. As a result there's probably a lot more divergent opinion about what it should be, what we should do, are we the right guys to do it, and so on.
Shack: Is there any of that internally?
Pete Hines: Internally, not really. Internally, we're a bunch of Fallout geeks. There is nobody [here] who hasn't played that game and enjoyed it. I have that game on my laptop, I take it with me and play it. But it's definitely different, because it's not really considered ours, the franchise. We didn't start it. There is a little bit of that sentiment out there that we have to prove that we're worthy to be the guys to make Fallout 3. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, because we have very high expectations for ourselves. The standard that we hold ourselves to, the kind of games we expect to make in terms of quality, we have a very high level of expectation. There's really nothing like the people from the outside expecting more than we expect ourselves.
It's a lot like when we were doing Morrowind. Everybody said, "Well, the last game you did was Daggerfall, and it was really buggy, and everything you're telling me about Morrowind sounds good but you need to prove it." It kind of has that same feel, that people are saying, "Yeah, I liked Oblivion, and you guys are good at roleplaying, but you have to prove that you aren't going to screw up this beloved franchise." We think we can do it. We are the right guys to be doing this franchise, we do take it seriously, and we do want to make it a powerful force in roleplaying in terms of what these games can do and be. We hope that when we show people what we're up to, they'll agree. Some folks will, and some folks will say it's not what they wanted. At the end of the day, we respect that, but we have to do what we think is right. Again, you can't make the game that everybody wants because you'll get ten different answers about what that game is.
More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=3821)

[Brother None]

brace for the nerd storm!

lol their st00pid and bethesda r00ls

[zakhal]

Shack: Yeah, that's a big step up though, from ten on Morrowind.

Pete Hines: When I got there we had our own warehouse downstairs. When we'd ship a game, we'd finish it and send the disc off for replication and order the boxes, then all that stuff would come downstairs to the basement. Then the devs used to actually go downstairs and work the assembly line, putting boxes into pallets and shrinkwrapping, and preparing for shipping. It was total mom and pop business, doing all the books and boxes. We went from that, to this. That's the sort of thing we think about, when we win stuff like the Spike TV awards, just a bunch of guys you've never heard of from Rockville, Maryland. Morrowind made by ten people and they even boxed it themselves. Quite amazing.

[Acleacius]

Pete Hines
"..... people are saying, Yeah, I liked Oblivion, and you guys are good at roleplaying....."
Is that what people are saying, Pete?
Roflmao. :biggrin:

zakhal
" Morrowind made by ten people and they even boxed it themselves. Quite amazing."
That's was pretty common in the 90's and 3DRelams still does it. :)

[bjon045]

Pete Hines
"..... people are saying, Yeah, I liked Oblivion, and you guys are good at roleplaying....."
Is that what people are saying, Pete?
Roflmao. :biggrin:


You may not like (and neither do I really) but yes, that is what the vast majority of people/gamers are saying.

[Dr. A]

Hines and Howard are killing RPGs. Impeach them, I say!

No, I'm not from the Codex :p

[Acleacius]

bjon045
"You may not like (and neither do I really) but yes, that is what the vast majority of people/gamers are saying."

Ok I'll bite who are the copious "they" and how are we able to verifiy this if what they (you) say is true? :)

[skavenhorde]

I'm just glad their actually talking about the game.

[fatBastard()]

Regarding the "They" entity: Just about every game site named Oblivion as RPG of the year and many of them even named it game of the year as well. Combine that with the rather huge sales figures of the game and the inevitable conclusion must be that quite a few people like the game (myself included).

I mean, even though I consider WoW a study in pointless tedium, I have to acknowledge that more than 8 mio people disagree with me. The same goes for all the Sims players.

[Punter X]

but even with Oblivion's high sales figures (and even then it's under the assumption that all those that bought it liked it), is it really possible to conclude that "they" are the "vast majority of people/gamers"?

[KasperFauerby]

Ok I'll bite who are the copious "they" and how are we able to verifiy this if what they (you) say is true? :)

Ah, come on! The TES series might not be everyones cup of tea, and I know alot of people (on this site especially) have some sort of hate towards the latest installment - the big O. But look at the reviews, look at the sales numbers and look at the size of the MOD community for the last two games in the series! I think it's fair to say that a lot of people thinks Bethesda is doing many things right.

And to "Dr. A":
How is the Bethesda guys killing the RPG? The TES has a quite unique approach to the genre, and since when did it become a bad thing to be innovative and try out new ideas? That's not killing the genre, as I see it - it's trying their best to keep it alive and fresh. Again, not everyone will like their approach.. but we gotta give them credit for not just releasing a new EOB, Ultima, Goldbox or whatever other RPGs were there for them to look at when they did the first one: Arena.

And btw, personally I'm not that big a fan of the TES series. I generally prefer the story to be more fleshed out in my games, even if it means a more linear experience. My favorite RPG series of all times are the Ultimas and the Gothics.

[Lethal Weapon]

From a strictly logical point of view, it is false to equate high number of sales with the quality of a product, especially when talking about videogames. Apart from the aforementioned argument "not every customer has to be happy", there are tons of other factors, like marketing, distribution network, fashion etc.

And let us not forget that this is a growing industry with thousands of newcomers every month, who had never before played a videogame either because they were too young or never owned a gaming machine; their opinion can hardly be taken seriously since they lack the experience, they are bound to find the first videogames they play 'awesome'.

As another example consider a kid who the best RPG he ever played involved killing tomatoes (some may understand what I am talking about). He hears at school that Oblivion is really 'cool' and his dad who has never played a videogame checks the box, sees "Teen" and buys it. The kid plays for a few hours (or maybe more, if he likes cat-looking people), then he tells his friends how 'awesome an experience' he had. A couple of weeks later he has completely forgotten since he's now playing another hyped game.

Let us also not forget the huge number of the clueless casual gamers who play 2 or maybe 3 games per year. Which game do you think they bought?

I'm not saying that Oblivion has not a genuine fanbase. Every game has.

Taking myself as an example I bought the game the day it came out only to regret it the next. I know I'm not the only one.

Also think the number of people who didn't like the game and just stay silent. Maybe they are the majority?

As far as reviews go, they never did a good job of giving each game its due credits, neither they managed to influence an experienced gamer's opinion. There are even statitistics that prove that. But just ask youselves when was the last time you bought a game based on a Gamespot review.

The only true test is the test of time. Take Fallout for instance. After so many years the interest remains very much alive, just check the forum statitistics from this site for the most popular threads. I suspect F3 is going to sell quite a few copies just on account of its name.

Regarding modding compare the modding communities of NWN and Oblivion. The first is busy providing new content, the second patching the game.

The interview was another typical Beth interview. Nothing substantial, just public relations. And I felt they have offended the devs of the original.

[Acleacius]

What is common knowledge in the RPG community, which is what was talked about "a good RPG" is that is isn't an RPG and bethesda lied about many features, including the trashy AI.

Additionally it's common knowledge the review sites lied as well, I remember specifically at the big preview playoff where reviewers played the game for about 5 hours, All with held the truth about the game except one guy and everyone trashed him.
People whom had never played that game were talking like he didn't know what he was talking about because he wasn't a TES previous fan.
Specific thing about how poorly it ran, crappy looking textures beyond 30 ft of the PC and popup to name a few, so if you want to talk about the great reviews many of us know/think that's crap. :)

Hehe, hell this was the short version too of all the problems, not to mention again most people when asked seem to also think games like Diablo are RPGs as well.
Again you would have to have (umm what's the politically correct word?) lean view of an RPGs, since they started as P&P they have always been about experiencing a story/adventure which you have an effect and change direction on through out the game.

oblivion is basically a set linear and scripted experience certainly the main story, hell it’s also constantly regurgitated NPCs, dialogue, acting (well not the lead actors) and dungeons. :)

Now if you choose to believe it's a great RPG thats fine, it just doesn't seem very accurate. ;)

[Corwin]

There is a thread specifically to discuss Oblivion!! Please use it!! :)

[fatBastard()]

And let us not forget that this is a growing industry with thousands of newcomers every month, who had never before played a videogame either because they were too young or never owned a gaming machine; their opinion can hardly be taken seriously since they lack the experience, they are bound to find the first videogames they play 'awesome'.
Isn't this kind of like saying that young people shouldn't be allowed to vote because they don't know how the world works? I would dare suggest that perhaps it is the other way around: That WE who have played a great many games over the years have become desensitize to the simple pleasures and crave more and more to get "high" (akin to a drug addict). At any rate, discussions of quality goes from objective to subjective in a heartbeat, so we have already entered the land of "One man's garbage is another man's treasure"

What is common knowledge in the RPG community, which is what was talked about "a good RPG" is that is isn't an RPG and bethesda lied about many features, including the trashy AI.
What? Hang on. I consider myself a part of "the RPG community" and I have no qualms about calling Oblivion an RPG. It is actually here on RPGWatch (and formerly on RPGDot) that I have seen the most loud discussions about just what makes an RPG, so I would argue that it is a bit of a stretch to claim that Oblivion is not an RPG without the accompanying "IMO" type of disclaimer.

[Burress]

Taking myself as an example I bought the game the day it came out only to regret it the next. I know I'm not the only one.
.....
As far as reviews go, they never did a good job of giving each game its due credits, neither they managed to influence an experienced gamer's opinion. There are even statitistics that prove that. But just ask youselves when was the last time you bought a game based on a Gamespot review.

I am just curious, did you buy it the day it arrived in stores because you are a big Elder Scrolls fan or because you were influenced by reviews?

[txa1265]

I think that the question is not whether Oblivion is 'good' or a 'real RPG', but whether the general perception is that Oblivion represents a quality role-playing game sets the 'state of the art'.

There are facts, opinions and conjecture enough to go around:
Facts:
- Oblivion sold extremely well, especially for the much more visible XBOX360 community, and the PS3 release is hotly anticipated (of course, someone has to buy the console first ;) ).
- Name recognition for Oblivion is tremendous because of this.
- Oblivion was almost universally named RPG of the year for PC and XBOX360, as well as taking overall RPG of the year and PC and XBOX GOTY pretty much everywhere. It was also one of the primary overall GOTY winners.

Opinions:
- Because of the widespread success, awards and brand recognition, Oblivion *is* recognized as the most significant RPG in recent years.
- It is also seen as reinvigorating the genre, since no other RPG in recent memory has sold so much and gotten so much press.
- The fact that the world is huge and looks great relative to other XBOX360 games is extremely significant - prior to release of Oblivion, game after game for the X360 looked like a slightly tweaked up XBOX game ... Oblivion was among the first *true* next gen looking games, and had a massive 'seamless' world to boot.

Conjecture:
- Because of these things, Bethesda can 'declare truth' in a great many areas - and if we challenge that we look like grousing PC gamers with chips on our shoulders raging against consoles yet again.

[Lethal Weapon]

@fatBastard()

As a matter of fact people are not allowed to vote before reaching a certain age (they have to start doing so at some point!). Also there is a great number of decisions in everyday politics in which public opinion is simply not taken into account (for a reason). As Plato wrote, true democracy requires intelligent, educated citizens, not idiots. As for comparing videogames with drugs... well you can do that with any artform I suppose. Whether Mozart's Requiem is garbage might as well be a matter of opinion.

@Burress

What really hapenned is that I convinced myself (hoping for the best). The number of pc titles released the past couple of years is so small that I tend to buy almost every RPG that hits the shelves.

@txa1265

Nobody doubts Oblivion's current 'success'. My point was how ephemeral it will
be. People are already forgetting Morrowind and almost noone remembers Daggerfall. Contrary to Fallout and other gems of the past.

@Corwin

Sorry, but I had to answer.

[xSamhainx]

The people who tend to say that the "vast majority of people feel ripped off by Oblivion or hated it" or whatever, regardless of the vast amount of data showing otherwise remind me of some old craggy men sitting outside some local coffee house, scowling and barking about the multitudes of people filing in and out of a newly built Starbucks across the street.

"Most of the people that drink that stuff dont really like it, Theyre just succumbing to the hype grumble grumble mutter mutter."

So the sales dont really count? The awards dont count? Well what the hell does count, then! Why, you and your pals' most exalted opinion, of course...

News Flash for you people: You and your little niche of the gaming community are not the center of the universe. It's YOU that are in the minority on this issue, not the other way around.

But hey I dont want to be a wet blanket here - believe whatever makes you feel good!

[Lethal Weapon]

So the sales dont really count? The awards dont count? Well what the hell does count, then!


The test of time of course! Unless Oblivion has already become a classic in which case I apologize.

[screeg]

Can I say something not about Oblivion?

Okay. What I don't get is if F03 isn't going to be turn-based, and/or isometric, and/or feature the SPECIAL system, then why did they bid on the franchise in the first place? It's not like Bethesda needed to fork out the extra cash to insure a hit. Why not just make your own post-apoc game from scratch and avoid the scrutiny of crazed, frothing Codex-type fans?

[bjon045]

Can I say something not about Oblivion?

Okay. What I don't get is if F03 isn't going to be turn-based, and/or isometric, and/or feature the SPECIAL system, then why did they bid on the franchise in the first place? It's not like Bethesda needed to fork out the extra cash to insure a hit. Why not just make your own post-apoc game from scratch and avoid the scrutiny of crazed, frothing Codex-type fans?

No information has been released. It is possible it is all 3 things you mentioned (although unlikely).

EDIT: sorry I missed that you had the "if" in italics. Ignore what I said.

[zakhal]

And btw, personally I'm not that big a fan of the TES series. I generally prefer the story to be more fleshed out in my games, even if it means a more linear experience. My favorite RPG series of all times are the Ultimas and the Gothics.

TES stories are more than adequate. You just have to use imagination a bit. You know..like in roleplaying games. ;)

[magerette]

This is almost as bad as the hype for the 2008 elections! I'm already so tired of this "Is it really Fallout if Bethesda makes it" stuff that I dismiss it on sight, and by the time it's released, it will be so talked into the ground that the issue will have no credibility at all. Why don't we wait at least til there's some info before the gnashing of teeth begins?

All that's happening is that anyone who likes a turn based, isometric style rpg is going to be lumped in with the rabid maniacs, and the whole concept dragged down into --pardon me- oblivion.

[Punter X]

"The people who tend to say that the "vast majority of people feel ripped off by Oblivion or hated it" or whatever, regardless of the vast amount of data showing otherwise"

i would like to think that you weren't attempting to place me in this category as my original comment was more against what i saw as an exercise in hyperbole considering i doubt the "vast majority of people" even own a computer/console while in regards "gamers" i personally see rpgs as being one of the smaller genres and therefore even with Oblivion's success at shifting units i was questioning if it was accurate to discribe those even discussing the merits and otherwise of Oblivion as the "vast majority"

[abbaon]

i would like to think that [etc.]
Sounds good. Go with it.

[Acleacius]

Corwin didn' the interview bring it up?

Look nobody, at least I am aware of, is claiming there is nothing good about oblvion, Hines said in the interview "good RPG", sure the game has many good qualities but RPG is not one of them.
Claiming it is either shows as I mentioned, you have a very forgiving view or you are profiting from it possibly, like Hines. ;)

The point by listing problems wasn't to just "bash" oblivion iit was in specific context and reply to how great the media said oblivon, which I was showing was much hyperbole at the very least.

I clearly don't understand people running to defend oblivion about being an RPG, it's not like there aren't good things about the game, just because it fails at one area doesn't mean it's a total failure and didn't sell.

Some are acting like all of a sudden the media is also beyond question, when clearly they had some connection to misleading or not reporting the problems ahead of the release.
Hell it's like claiming the media wasn't complicit for going along with the cigarette industry, even claiming it was healthy.

If some are so hot to talk about oblivion's good points why don't you open a thread about that? :)

[Lethal Weapon]

... if F03 isn't going to be turn-based, and/or isometric, and/or feature the SPECIAL system...

You're completely missing the point. Those are not the qualities that made F one of the best RPGs. F3 can easily be turn-based, isometric, SPECIAL and crap.


It's not like Bethesda needed to fork out the extra cash to insure a hit.

How do you figure that?


If some are so hot to talk about oblivion's good points why don't you open a thread about that? :)

Indeed.

[Moriendor]

If some are so hot to talk about oblivion's good points why don't you open a thread about that? :)

What for? To have it trolled into ummm... oblivion by you whiny little cry babies who have barely even played the game (if at all) and who need to rely on making up factually incorrect stuff to mindlessly bash the game? How about 'no, thanks' :) . Just keep on flaming it and on dwelling in your world of illusions where everyone hates Oblivion. It's entertaining to watch you suffer :biggrin: . Carry on...

[Punter X]

it is at this juncture that i'm reminded of a 17th century saying involving a pot, a kettle and the colour black :)

[Brother None]

This is almost as bad as the hype for the 2008 elections! I'm already so tired of this "Is it really Fallout if Bethesda makes it" stuff that I dismiss it on sight, and by the time it's released, it will be so talked into the ground that the issue will have no credibility at all. Why don't we wait at least til there's some info before the gnashing of teeth begins?

Agreed. Hella tired topic. That said, the issue is of course that Bethesda does make a lot of key design decisions before showing the game, and by that point certain decisions are irreversible. Whether or not combat/viewpoint is amongst these, I dunno...

But that does make the "if"-questions pretty relevant. This interview with Pete shows that some of the comments did get through to him. Whether or not he takes them to heart...don't know, but at least he knows.

Those are not the qualities that made F one of the best RPGs.

No, they're what made it one of the best RPGs that had the intention to emulate a P&P game (in this case, GURPS). As Tim Cain put it:
"We'd like to think the computer version will be as close as you can get to playing GURPS, short of playing GURPS."
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg/browse_thread/thread/16aca219b0e563e/7bf9bbe7ddc45100#

How do you figure that?

Would you say shelling out 1.175 million *guarantee against royalties* was a proper investment in the word-of-mouth it has generated so far?

In other words, was the 1 mil a proper investment to propagate a certain reaction?

[ToddMcF2002]

What for? To have it trolled into ummm... oblivion by you whiny little cry babies who have barely even played the game (if at all) and who need to rely on making up factually incorrect stuff to mindlessly bash the game? How about 'no, thanks' :) . Just keep on flaming it and on dwelling in your world of illusions where everyone hates Oblivion. It's entertaining to watch you suffer :biggrin: . Carry on...

amen brother

[abbaon]

Agreed. Hella tired topic. That said...
You're so reasonable, Kharn. By the way, the time to delete the 'project' threads from your sites is right now. Give it a chance to make its way out of Google cache before it goes live.

[Brother None]

You're so reasonable, Kharn. By the way, the time to delete the 'project' threads from your sites is right now. Give it a chance to make its way out of Google cache before it goes live.

'project'? Dude, get your facts straight, that's DaC, I'm NMA.

PS: that whole thing is kinda silly since BethSoft is quite aware of what's going on. Secrecy? Silly.

[abbaon]

God help me, but I actually disagree with you about this. It's a "some of the/all of the" thing. Yes, Beth knows, but Beth won't tell anyone. If you (plural; your ilk) can minimize the number of real people who know, you can keep them from spilling the truth every time it comes up on any forum or news site, and actually end up causing the desired effect for a considerable number of people. In any case, the experiment deserves the best possible chance of success. I can't wait to see how it turns out.

[Brother None]

God help me, but I actually disagree with you about this. It's a "some of the/all of the" thing. Yes, Beth knows, but Beth won't tell anyone. If you (plural; your ilk) can minimize the number of real people who know, you can keep them from spilling the truth every time it comes up on any forum or news site, and actually end up causing the desired effect for a considerable number of people. In any case, the experiment deserves the best possible chance of success. I can't wait to see how it turns out.

"your ilk"? Again, not NMA.

Anyway, *shrug*, you believe in it more than me. I don't think it has any intention or direction to achieve any kind of "desired" effect. The achieve an effect, you have to know what it is. They don't. I'm also curious to see how it turns out, and give it the best possible chance of success, but it's not exciting anyone on my site, and I can't make them.

You're probably right about secrecy. But BethSoft can easily blow it wide open if they don't like where it goes. As long as it serves as free adspace for them, everything will be fine. Talk about giving them the weapons to fight with for free.

[abbaon]

Bethesda Softworks is a software developer, not the NKVD. It genuinely, honestly doesn't care about you. It doesn't regard you as a threat, and won't expend any effort unmasking your plot. So it could work.

I don't think it will work, since you guys-- sorry, THOSE guys have the organisational skills of crazed pigrats, but it could.

Re. direction, the last version of the plan sounded perfectly cogent to me. Perhaps they've lost their way since then. I don't know any more than what they've discussed (all too) publicly.

[Brother None]

It doesn't regard you as a threat, and won't expend any effort unmasking your plot.

Reality shows you're wrong. Look at the RPGCodex. Look at the Star Trek Gamers site. Look at the fact that right after the STG story was blown wide open they suddenly have an opening for a community manager. Please tell me how they don't regard us as people to take into account.

Re. direction, the last version of the plan sounded perfectly cogent to me. Perhaps they've lost their way since then. I don't know any more than what they've discussed (all too) publicly.

I never heard any unified plan of action, but meh, maybe I missed it.

[abbaon]

Suffice it to say that I believe the ESF moderators' explanation for the first two events, and see no great significance in the third. PMed.

[Dr. A]

@KasperFauerby
I wanted to reply to your enquiry on why i believe the two are killing RPGs but damn...The avalanche of replies that ensued from the rest is more or less what I wanted to say.

The TES series were brilliant RPGs until Oblivion because they unquestionably dumbed-down the game (not "streamlined" as they so often strenuously claim)

@Moriendor
Oblivion does HAVE good points. But , to me at least, it's bad points outweigh them by far. And I played the game for around 20 hours. Long enough to reasonably assess the game.

Oblivion is a GOOD game. But dear God, the hype is ridiculous and the accolades it garners borders on the ludicrous. And I thought the Halo series were overrated...:p

[KasperFauerby]

@KasperFauerby
The TES series were brilliant RPGs until Oblivion because they unquestionably dumbed-down the game (not "streamlined" as they so often strenuously claim)
Oblivion is a GOOD game. But dear God, the hype is ridiculous and the accolades it garners borders on the ludicrous.

Ok, seems like we pretty much agree then after all :) I thought you were bashing the TES series as a whole.. We can easily agree that Oblivion was hyped beyond all reason - and it annoys me that some reviewers claim Oblivion is the perfect game with no flaws whatsoever, and then later slaughters a game like Gothic 3, for example.

[Dr. A]

Bashing the TES series would be RPG blasphemy! Although I've never played all of them much, I can recognise a stellar RPG series from what little I played :p The longest TES game i played was Morrowind ,for about 10 hours, before the combat system finally frustrated me enough to quit playing. Nonetheless, it is an excellent game.

I'm sure everyone recognises the fact that the TES series WERE excellent. Which is why the latest in the series disappoints so much.

I was so damn excited over the damn thing pre release- I checked the forums everyday many times. Near the release, I started to get annoyed with some aspects of the game design reveled through developer interviews (quest compass, level scaling) And when the game was finally out and I played it, I was crushed with disappointment. :(

And oh, how Bethesda exaggerated and outright lied about many things...

Now if only somebody made a Morrowind mod with Oblivion, life would be sweet again...