SW: Old Republic Preview

[Roi Danton]

Since we were just talking about that game in another thread I'd like to point out that Rock, Paper Shotgun has posted a rather positive preview of The Old Republic (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/04/28/58119/).

[hishadow]

Interesting. Kinda confirms my suspicion that this is a singleplayer-turned-multiplayer game camouflaged as an mmo. That story content isn't gonna last long so it'll be interesting to see what the long term gameplay will be. Anyway, I'm certainly going to participate in the public beta to see if its any good.

Another quote (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/reviews/2011/04/together-we-work-alone-two-days-with-star-wars-the-old-republic.ars/2):
A very minor downside to the tight storyline each class follows is that play will still be very linear, compared to other MMOs like WoW. While you can exercise choice in your moral path, you can't do much to change your geographical one. Characters that begin on one planet will always follow the same planet-to-planet trajectory as the story progresses, and will have no navigational options, though there are some opportunities for action on the side, like space combat and flashpoints.

An another one (http://www.bit-tech.net/gaming/pc/2011/04/29/star-wars-the-old-republic-preview/1) from the singleplayer crowd:
Instead, the issue that plagues The Old Republic is one of predictability. An MMO from such accomplished RPG writers and based on such a rich fiction could have redefined the genre, but instead appears to merely ape other MMOs, with little thought given to reconciling the fiction with the gameplay or capitalising on the depth of the narrative. From what we've seen, there’s very little to make The Old Republic stand out from any other MMO we’ve played.

[wolfing]

It's exactly how I've always planned to play this game, as a cheap (in cost) RPG. Why cheap? Well, there are I think 10 classes, each class with a completely different storyline, so in a way it's like 10 different RPGs. That should keep me entertained for like a year. At $13/month + $50 for the game, that's about $200. 10 games for $200 that's $20 each :) very cheap!

[hishadow]

It's exactly how I've always planned to play this game, as a cheap (in cost) RPG. Why cheap? Well, there are I think 10 classes, each class with a completely different storyline, so in a way it's like 10 different RPGs. That should keep me entertained for like a year. At $13/month + $50 for the game, that's about $200. 10 games for $200 that's $20 each :) very cheap!
They exaggerate a little with the "x novels worth". For instance, the locations will be the same. You progress linearly from the same planet to the next with all classes. The Flashpoints (dungeons) will be the same, and the stories will also intersect since you can group on quests.

It'll be very interesting to see where this game stands one year after release. I think EA will be very happy if you end up spending $200. :biggrin:

[wolfing]

They exaggerate a little with the "x novels worth". For instance, the locations will be the same. You progress linearly from the same planet to the next with all classes. The Flashpoints (dungeons) will be the same, and the stories will also intersect since you can group on quests.

It'll be very interesting to see where this game stands one year after release. I think EA will be very happy if you end up spending $200. :biggrin:

That's the thing, I care about stories not locations. I remember playing Quest for Glory 3 times as if it was 3 different games. Same locations, but very different gameplay and somewhat different story depending on class. So I will play TOR as different games. My only problem is that I don't usually like playing melee characters, my preferred would be probably the Jedi Consular, but still.
As to where the game will stand a year after release. Simple, there'll be an expansion so I'll probably be continuing my 'games' :)

[hishadow]

Here is a new gameplay video (http://www.livestream.com/electronicarts/video?clipId=pla_df59967d-dc2e-4e9c-b8b1-5270a342bebc) from E3 with one of the writers of the game giving a tour of mid-level gameplay. Things presented are quest system, travel system, size of planets, companion characters, trashmob combat, and QA from gamers.

[Zloth]

What's this (http://e3.gamespot.com/story/6317852/e3-2011-star-wars-the-old-republic-updated-hands-on-preview-high-level-play-on-tatooine?tag=topslot;thumb;2) about 4 characters per party max??

[hishadow]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6sj89xgnl4#t=1m50s)! They will be using the same zone instancing crap that Age of Conan used, on top of all the phasing.

[DArtagnan]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6sj89xgnl4#t=1m50s)! They will be using the same zone instancing crap that Age of Conan used, on top of all the phasing.

For real?

That's pretty crappy - if true.

I thought it was supposed to be much more open.

[hishadow]

It's active for betatesters from what I've read. Too many people on a planet will trigger spawning of a new instance. The starting planets are also completely instanced. The instancing is strong with this one!

[DArtagnan]

Bah - one more reason not to be too excited about this one...

[wolfing]

I actually prefer instances by far. Can't wait for this game to be released. There is no release date yet, I'm hoping for early November.

[azarhal]

The starting planets are also completely instanced. The instancing is strong with this one!

Please don't spout misleading BS. Thank you.

Starting planets have a capacity cap, like every starting zones in every MMO (vanilla WoW had them). The other choices is massive lag in starting areas and server crashes.

In game testing, the cap is probably lower as to test the feature and see how it react. Just like they tested guild features by making 2 guilds on each side last weekend and invited every players to them.

[hishadow]

Please don't spout misleading BS. Thank you.
If so then I stand corrected.

Starting planets have a capacity cap, like every starting zones in every MMO (vanilla WoW had them). The other choices is massive lag in starting areas and server crashes.
WoW, really? WoW isn't instanced per zone. I never saw that, even in Outland which was jammed packed with people at launch.

In game testing, the cap is probably lower as to test the feature and see how it react. Just like they tested guild features by making 2 guilds on each side last weekend and invited every players to them.
But it's a little stange that there are four starting planets, and once people leave those they get funneled along the same planets which would mean it would only get worse.

[DArtagnan]

WoW didn't have a capacity cap - THAT's bullshit. There's a reason starting/popular areas lag like crazy every time a new patch is released. That's because they rely on the server cap and nothing else. At least, they did when I played it.

People love to dream that testing is somehow completely different from the full game - but if there's a cap - it will affect the full game. To even HAVE the instancing technology in place means they intend to use it - as it's not a trivial thing to implement on the server-side.

Obviously, this will be an instanced game. Starting areas are not the only ones affected by potential massive turnups. You either have the technology or landmass to deal with this without instancing or you don't.

Anything else is misleading BS.

[hishadow]

Pre-orders are starting to appear. Collector's Edition is going at $150. Any takers? In Norway the price is $236. :roll:
Limited Collector's Edition Includes:

Exclusive Gentle Giant Darth Malgus statue
Star Wars: The Old Republic game disks in collectible metal case
The Journal of Master Gnost-Dural annotated by Satele Shan
Old Republic galaxy map
Custom Security Authentication Key
Exclusive Music of Star Wars: The Old Republic CD
High-quality Collector's Edition box

Includes 7 additional digital items

Flare Gun: Fire flares into the air.
Training Droid: Hovers at your side for combat assistance.
HoloDancer: Project your own holographic dancer.
HoloCam: Keep visual records of in-game adventures.
STAP: Sleek and unique in-game vehicle.
Exclusive Mouse Droid: Spunky droid to join your adventures.
Exclusive Collector's Edition Store: Unique in-game vendor with a dynamic assortment of items.

A sidenote: There won't be any public beta according to interviews. It will probably have a ramped up invited beta before launch. They say they have about 1000 testers now.

[DArtagnan]

Nice prices ;)

[wolfing]

Preordered and registered my early access key baby! Haven't been this hyped up about a game in years. Only the standard edition though, I'm not paying $150 for a game, I don't care if it has a real life holo-dancer.

[Maylander]

I pre-ordered the digital deluxe edition, which costs about 100$ in Norway (600kr).

[DArtagnan]

I'm interested in the game, but there's no way I'll support prices like that.

[hishadow]

We're talking about EA here. :) I'm soon insolvent so you could do as I and get the poor edition.

[DArtagnan]

I'll never pre-order an MMO - especially not an EA/Bio MMO.

But I'll get it cheap post-release, if I sense it's worth it. I'll try and get in a beta and see for myself.

MMO feedback is notoriously unreliable because it's always about "promises", "the next patch", or the "next expansion".

People loooove to delude themselves.

[hishadow]

MMO feedback is notoriously unreliable because it's always about "promises", "the next patch", or the "next expansion".

People loooove to delude themselves.
You played Age of Conan too?! :D

[DArtagnan]

You played Age of Conan too?! :D

I've played all major MMOs :)

The same has been the case each and every time.

Let's just say I've learned from my mistakes....

[wolfing]

I'd say TOR is an MMO in which you can easily not play at release and have the same experience as if you did, so if you can live through the temptation of it being out there and you not playing, you'll save some $30 after waiting a few months. TOR is basically a bunch of single player RPGs (8 to start I think) where you see other people playing.
Other MMOs are much better when they are just released, as they are more 'multiplayer', so it's a better experience when you go through the thing with other people that are also going through the thing for their fist time.

[hishadow]

I guess that is probably true with SWTOR. All that storytelling is going to be permanent. It's a bit fun though to play at launch since there are lot of people buzzing around. There is also that tendency to tune down difficulty so you get to experience maybe a little more challenge if you're an early adopter.

[Drithius]

I hadn't planned on delving into this game. I tend to think that it's overhyped so badly that a large influx of WoW idiots will be had on day one. Unfortunately, some guys I knew from Everquest asked me if I'd join them and I grudgingly relented, at least to try it out.

Those prices are laughable though… Do they also offer a lifetime membership for pre-order only, @$1,000? Does it come with a "I have too much money to think properly" pin?

[wolfing]

According to this http://www.shacknews.com/article/69440/star-wars-old-republic-breaks-pre-order-record-ea-sales looks like TOR broke EA's record for preorders (one of those is mine), and considering they had limited number of them, looks like the hype is strong with this one

[hishadow]

A developer confirmed use of instancing (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7514769#edit7514769) ala Age of Conan reported by betatesters.

Also, there will be an entire planet (http://swtor.wikia.com/wiki/Ilum) devoted to solo gameplay as end-game content.

[DArtagnan]

A developer confirmed use of instancing (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7514769#edit7514769) ala Age of Conan reported by betatesters.

Not good….

Also, there will be an entire planet (http://swtor.wikia.com/wiki/Ilum) devoted to solo gameplay as end-game content.

That, however, sounds pretty good :)

[Zloth]

I would say instancing is VERY good - though I don't know what Age of Conan's was like in particular.

[wolfing]

I find the news about instancing very good news. When I'm in the quest to find the sacred lightstone of midicliroinanin, and me being the only jedi trusted with the secret (according to the storyline quest), I don't want to find a line of characters waiting for the NPC to spawn.

[Zloth]

Release date: 12/20/2011

[skavenhorde]

Let the fall of Bioware commence…..Well at least according to that EA-Louse guy who said it was horrible. Don't know his real name, but we all know that anonymous people can be trusted completely ;)

[rune_74]

I preordered this, I haven't heard anything bad from people who have played it. And bioware usually has a good record with their games, so I'm happy. Hell, it's starwars too;)

[hishadow]

I preordered this, I haven't heard anything bad from people who have played it. And bioware usually has a good record with their games, so I'm happy. Hell, it's starwars too;)
I'm getting paged by friends to preorder it. Still reserving judgement. Would be nice to beta-test it first. My concerns for it is linearity, instancing, and difficulty tuning. Other than that I think it looks fine from the beta-videos I've come across.

[Motoki]

And bioware usually has a good record with their games...

Ummm...hmm I don't even know how to respond to this. I used to feel that way once upon a time. Now, yeah not so much.

They've got a lot riding on this one though so hopefully it's decent. Not much of an MMO fan but if it goes down in price or they have a free weekend or something I will check it out at least.

[Zloth]

Well, I'll tell ya, it's really… gag! uurrgh! >> choke <<

I find your lack of NDA compliance disturbing.

Ghhha! >> thump <<

[rune_74]

Ummm…hmm I don't even know how to respond to this. I used to feel that way once upon a time. Now, yeah not so much.

They've got a lot riding on this one though so hopefully it's decent. Not much of an MMO fan but if it goes down in price or they have a free weekend or something I will check it out at least.

They do have a good track record, Dragon age 1, mass effect 1 and mass effect 2 are all great games, hell I'm even having fun with dragon age 2...not as much as the first one but it's hardly horrible.

[Motoki]

They do have a good track record, Dragon age 1, mass effect 1 and mass effect 2 are all great games, hell I'm even having fun with dragon age 2…not as much as the first one but it's hardly horrible.

Well let's just say I am glad someone is enjoying it (DA2) and felt like they got their money's worth. :p I personally don't feel that game lived up to its hype so I have a hard time buying into it this time around.

I think I'll wait for opinions from real players (who aren't under NDA ;) ) on a final version of the game. I definitely don't have enough faith in Bioware at this point to pre-order anything they make.

[rune_74]

Well let's just say I am glad someone is enjoying it (DA2) and felt like they got their money's worth. :p I personally don't feel that game lived up to its hype so I have a hard time buying into it this time around.

I think I'll wait for opinions from real players (who aren't under NDA ;) ) on a final version of the game. I definitely don't have enough faith in Bioware at this point to pre-order anything they make.

So, um one game that didn't live up to it's hype and they become the worst company;) Funny, that never affected Piranah bytes after that god awful gothic 3.

I'm enjoying dragon age 2 more in the story then the combat, so that to me is ok.

[hishadow]

So, um one game that didn't live up to it's hype and they become the worst company.
As far as Dragon Age is concerned. YES!!! :furious:

[Motoki]

So, um one game that didn't live up to it's hype and they become the worst company;) Funny, that never affected Piranah bytes after that god awful gothic 3.

I'm enjoying dragon age 2 more in the story then the combat, so that to me is ok.

It depends on the company but with Bioware I think a lot of us sort of pinned our hopes on them and viewed them as an RPG company from way back, but now they are making comments like the RPG genre is irrelevant, 'when you push a button something awesome has to happen" (no it doesn't, not for an RPG) and then there is the whole EA thing. Some of us have been around long enough to remember Origin. And no I don't mean the crappy Steam-wannabe. I mean the gaming company.

[rune_74]

It depends on the company but with Bioware I think a lot of us sort of pinned our hopes on them and viewed them as an RPG company from way back, but now they are making comments like the RPG genre is irrelevant, 'when you push a button something awesome has to happen" (no it doesn't, not for an RPG) and then there is the whole EA thing. Some of us have been around long enough to remember Origin. And no I don't mean the crappy Steam-wannabe. I mean the gaming company.

Yes, we have been around long enough to remember what they did to Origin, and trust me it pissed me off just as much as the next guy. I have been seeing some improvements in the EA mentality of destroying things lately though, a sign of the times perhaps.

[DArtagnan]

Didn't I say I never pre-ordered MMOs?

Then why am I considering doing so for this one?

I'm probably just stupid.

[pibbur0x2a]

Didn't I say I never pre-ordered MMOs?

Then why am I considering doing so for this one?

I'm probably just stupid.

You'll probably end up ordering it from Steam.

Says pibbur who actually doubt it will be released on Steam.

[DArtagnan]

You'll probably end up ordering it from Steam.

Says pibbur who actually doubt it will be released on Steam.

Seems EA wants it to be "Origin" exclusive for the digital version. If so, then I think they're pretty stupid.

The game is so high-profile and you don't want to annoy people wanting to check it out, by forcing them to yet another DD.

[wolfing]

I've been in the beta for a while now (saying that is not against the NDA). And, I don't think this is against the NDA when I say that I played *ahem* tested the game from Friday when I got from work and installed the client, thorugh 5:30 am Saturday when I couldn't believe that was the time, then almost all day Saturday and Sunday (take some 5-6 hours off for sleeping and eating).
If you liked KotoR, you'll probably like SW:TOR, that should basically be your deciding point.

[DArtagnan]

I've been in the beta for a while now (saying that is not against the NDA). And, I don't think this is against the NDA when I say that I played *ahem* tested the game from Friday when I got from work and installed the client, thorugh 5:30 am Saturday when I couldn't believe that was the time, then almost all day Saturday and Sunday (take some 5-6 hours off for sleeping and eating).
If you liked KotoR, you'll probably like SW:TOR, that should basically be your deciding point.

Well, that is pretty much the reason I'll be checking it out.

I don't expect much more than a decent singleplayer game in an MMO environment, and more than that will be a pleasant surprise.

[DArtagnan]

Oh, and I hope I get a chance at the beta... I'd love to see if this game is ready for release in terms of the technical state.

[Motoki]

Am I the only one that thinks $60 up front plus $15 a month is a lot? You know once they bleed all the addicts fans dry they will lower the up front cost or put it on sale just to get more people in the door.

Also, $5 "Digital pre-order fee"? Really EA?

[Drithius]

I never pre-order anything. In a world of marketing hype, I think any such pre-order is simply foolish.

Now, if Obsidian were to make a Steampunk open-world RPG blending elements of Fallout and Arcanum, I'd go against that mantra.

[wolfing]

Am I the only one that thinks $60 up front plus $15 a month is a lot? You know once they bleed all the addicts fans dry they will lower the up front cost or put it on sale just to get more people in the door.

Also, $5 "Digital pre-order fee"? Really EA?

You got it all wrong.
The game is $60 yes, that's expensive but that's EA for you, but it includes the first month. Also, if things are like other MMOs, it's more like $14 or even $13 if you buy multi-month periods. This is actually cheaper than most single player RPGs. I don't know about you, but I finish most RPGs in less than a month, so if I play TOR for, say, 6 months, I'd be saving money actually compared to buying a standard RPG every month.
And the $5 pre-order fee is no different than any $5 preorder you get at any store, it's counted towards the final amount (i.e. your CC gets charged $5 now, $55 when it goes live).

Having said that, if you can wait, do wait (not me, I'll be the first one downloading the thing as soon as I can). You will probably find it cheaper after a few months, you will get a more polished experience as there are always issues in any MMO's launch (from bugs to queues, etc), the economy will have been on for some time so you won't pay the crazy prices people charge in the Auction House when any MMO is new

[DArtagnan]

There's no logical argument against MMOs in terms of entertainment hours vs money spent.

They're cheaper than pretty much everything that's not entirely free.

Another matter, though, is whether the "entertainment hours" are comparable to the ones you get with a singleplayer RPG.

That is an entirely subjective thing, and there's no way to make that determination in any other way.

They're promising 200 hours pr. character, and that's just the story content. If the game is anywhere near KotOR quality - I'd say that's a very nice return on your investment.

Now, I don't believe they can fully pull it off, and I don't believe that the MMO structure can truly match the sensation of being at the center of it all - without breaking all kinds of immersion barriers. Also, I don't believe that they can create cutscenes and emotional context on a "modern singleplayer level" - so I'm expecting something slightly quirky and more than occasionally unconvincing.

I also don't expect the level of closure I'd get from a singleplayer CRPG. If they intend to make this MMO last for years, which they obviously do, then they can't end the story with any kind of true finality. Seeing as how you're going to be able to go off the beaten linear path and complete all kinds of sidequests or "MMO stuff" - I don't expect to feel as if I'm finishing a game - but just one story.

Not sure that will accomplish for me what a singleplayer game normally accomplishes. I'm fairly sure it won't.

It's not the first MMO to focus on story - not by a long shot. LOTRO did it very well, but without voice acting. Age of Conan did it for the first 20 levels - and there are others.

None of those games truly pulled off the singleplayer sensation of getting a cohesive wholesome experience with the required amount of finality to it. They were too rooted in the traditional MMO conventions for the other parts of the game, and it remains to be seen if SWToR differs in that way.

But even if the actual story content is subpar and middling, I happen to quite like many MMO features - and I like the idea of being a part of a "living community" even if I'm not particularly social with strangers. I'm especially interested in how they're handling crafting and open world PvP. Both things have potential to be worthwhile activities.

Also, it's one of the VERY rare RPGs with several appealing classes. I'm not sure I've ever played one with that many that I wanted to check out. I'm expecting, at the very least, to play it through from both the Republic and Sith side - which means 400 hours of potentially strong singleplayer content.

It's basically 15$ for a month where the problem isn't the amount of content, but the limited time you have available. Even at 8 hours a day, you couldn't get through more than half of it.

Not a bad deal, is it.

The unwillingness to pay 15$ for that huge amount of content, is one of the major reasons the genre has been infested with F2P models. Nothing is more detrimental to gaming than that - and it has all but ruined the future of the genre.

I understand the trepidation about committing to a monthly subscription, but if you have any intention of actually playing the game - you're not being fleeced.

[wolfing]

you got it right. Yes, it's like comparing a movie vs. a TV series. The movie can be about saving the universe and they have 2-3 hours to develop the story, but when you have 15/20 episodes per season and hopefully several seasons, you can't save the universe every 3 hours, so you shouldn't expect it to have a 'big closure', but if the writers are good, the stories can still be good and engaging without the need of having you saving the universe.

[Drithius]

It's not the first MMO to focus on story - not by a long shot. LOTRO did it very well, but without voice acting.

Playing Lotro was the single most immersive experience I've had in any recent game... and then they released the first expansion and the magic got stripped away. Even if Bioware/EA manage to awe us all with the initial release, I'm somewhat pessimistic on how they'll keep it all flowing through later expansions and not succumb to formulaic gameplay.

The more I think about it, the more I become uninterested in this game or any new MMO, regardless of who else is playing.

[Motoki]

The unwillingness to pay 15$ for that huge amount of content, is one of the major reasons the genre has been infested with F2P models. Nothing is more detrimental to gaming than that - and it has all but ruined the future of the genre.

I understand the trepidation about committing to a monthly subscription, but if you have any intention of actually playing the game - you're not being fleeced.

I'm not objecting to the monthly fee as much as I'm objecting to the high up front cost. The only alternative to the monthly fee is heavily pushing microtransactions to the point where you don't get a complete experience unless you pay or people are paying to get shortcuts so everyone isn't on a level playing field.

I guess I take exception with the high up front cost because they are going to be getting plenty of money from users in the long term anyway so they should be offsetting the cost to purchase the game. I'm also 100% completely certain they will lower the game cost or put it on sale at some point probably not terribly long after release once they have reached saturation point on all the people willing to pay $60 to get in the gate.

That sort of thing goes on all the time with single player games, but unlike those MMOs don't really need to do that because they have subscription fees coming in. To me the only reason they are doing it is simply because they can. It's a big name and they know a certain segment is really anxious to play this game. Just like they are going Origin only because they can.

The digital pre-order fee really yanks my chain too. Why are people paying extra to pre-order something in digital format again?

Having said all that, I'm not going to go back in forth in some big internet argument with pages and pages of text walls about it. If you guys want to pay it then may the force be with you. :p I personally think the upfront cost is too high for a service that is an unknown to me and won't be checking it out until they lower it, which they will.

[DArtagnan]

If you have no problem with the monthly fee, then you're not part of the problem I was talking about :)

About the "high" upfront cost, I don't agree it's particularly high. You get as much game as you can muster for 30 days. That's pretty sweet for 60 bucks.

They don't really know how many people would be willing to commit to a subscription, and I think it's quite fair to expect people to pay for the client.

That said, to me, it's not about what's "fair" in terms of pricing - but what I'm willing to pay. I don't understand the concept of "fair" in this business no matter how you slice it.

I don't think anyone needs millions of dollars, so any game generating that kind of return for individuals isn't priced "fairly" in my mind. Some F2P games do that. I think everyone deserves a decent living, so when games utterly fail after years of hard work - that's not "fair" in my mind.

There's just no way for me to determine what is "fair" unless I know exactly what went into making the game, from the perspective of every single person on the team. Even then, I don't know what kind of price would be fair.

I only know that 60$ for several hundred hours of quality content is more than "fair" in terms of what I'd be willing to pay for something like that.

[Motoki]

About the "high" upfront cost, I don't agree it's particularly high. You get as much game as you can muster for 30 days. That's pretty sweet for 60 bucks.

They don't really know how many people would be willing to commit to a subscription, and I think it's quite fair to expect people to pay for the client.


I would agree with that if there were some sort of offline version or portion of the game that still remained playable without subscribing but there isn't.

Of course that's par for the MMO course these days with even Diablo getting rid of the offline portion of their game.

But you're right I suppose, it's about what people are willing to pay. I'm not willing to pay $60 up front for something that is unknown to me and requires a long term subscription fee to remain useful.

Then again, buying digital downloads and carefully monitoring prices and sales has made me a lot more frugal lately. I almost never pay full price for games anymore. I have to pretty much be dying with anticipation to do that and I am far too cynical and skeptical (with good reason!) these days for much of that.

If the user reviews are mostly good on release then I'll probably be one of the second or third wave of users to enter this game and as wolfing noted, it will probably be a more stable experience by then.

[DArtagnan]

But you're right I suppose, it's about what people are willing to pay. I'm not willing to pay $60 up front for something that is unknown to me and requires a long term subscription fee to remain useful.

I don't think many really would. Personally, I only invest that kind of money when I feel I have sufficient information about a game. I've been following SWtoR for a long time, and I'm pretty sure what it's going to be about and how it will play.

But I'm not pre-ordering before the NDA is lifted or I hear what I need to hear from someone I trust.

Not because I don't think the game will be for me, but because I don't want to pay for early access in a game that might have severe launch issues. I've tried that before, and I'm not making that mistake again.

But if it turns out to be stable and polished, then 60 bucks is nothing for a full months worth of quality gaming. I'd consider that extremely cheap, actually.

It's a chance, of course, but given my experience with gaming and the MMO genre specifically, I have a pretty developed "6th sense" about what games are going to be worth it, even without having played them. SWtoR should definitely be worth it, but I don't have the feeling it will overwhelm me or be all that impressive. I think it will scratch my KotOR itch just enough - AND provide a potential long-term experience that I can enjoy with my RL friends.

[pibbur0x2a]

Playing Lotro was the single most immersive experience I've had in any recent game… and then they released the first expansion and the magic got stripped away. Even if Bioware/EA manage to awe us all with the initial release, I'm somewhat pessimistic on how they'll keep it all flowing through later expansions and not succumb to formulaic gameplay.

The more I think about it, the more I become uninterested in this game or any new MMO, regardless of who else is playing.

In what way was the magic stripped away? I'm not arguing, just asking out of curiosity.

I'm still having a very good time with LOTRO, and I think that for instance the new classes that were introduced (the warden and the rune keeper) added a lot to gameplay.

[pibbur0x2a]

I never pre-order anything. In a world of marketing hype, I think any such pre-order is simply foolish.

Now, if Obsidian were to make a Steampunk open-world RPG blending elements of Fallout and Arcanum, I'd go against that mantra.

I suppose that you won't be interested in pre-ordering Miner Wars 2081, then. Even if you get it at 70% discount, and access to a pre-alpha version of the game right now.

says pibbur who wonders when we'll be able to pre-order games in pre-pre-production. Or at the somewhat-great-idea-in-my-mind stage.

[Motoki]

But I'm not pre-ordering before the NDA is lifted or I hear what I need to hear from someone I trust.


Yeah, I can definitely understand that but I think I am taking that caution even further personally and waiting to hear user reviews post-release. I know from experience there's a whole host of issues that don't necessarily get noticed in the beta but suddenly become a problem once the floodgates open and the masses pour in.

[DArtagnan]

Yeah, I can definitely understand that but I think I am taking that caution even further personally and waiting to hear user reviews post-release. I know from experience there's a whole host of issues that don't necessarily get noticed in the beta but suddenly become a problem once the floodgates open and the masses pour in.

I'm not saying I don't understand your point of view :)

It makes perfect sense.

The reason I'm willing to take the chance probably has something to do with how little I care about the 60$ investment.

I'm not a rich man by any measure - but I don't fret about the money I have left over. They're going to be spent one way or the other :)

Also, as long as the client is stable and polished - I don't care that much about issues and bugs. They get resolved eventually - and I've never played an MMO that I considered balanced and fully functional. It's just not part of the genre to my mind.

[Drithius]

I suppose that you won't be interested in pre-ordering Miner Wars 2081, then. Even if you get it at 70% discount, and access to a pre-alpha version of the game right now.

Lol, what in the world is that, Pibbur? First I've heard of it - some sort of Descent MMO? I still remember my time playing Descent… and having to lay down for an hour afterward to prevent vomiting!

In what way was the magic stripped away [from Lotro]? I'm not arguing, just asking out of curiosity.
1) It was the introduction of grind into the game (via Legendary items and radiance gear being required for raids). Later, they would continue this trend with the implementation of skirmishes.

2) The raids themselves simply weren't fun; Watcher & BG were just so inferior to all-out fun you could have with friends while in the Rift & Helegrod.

3) Implementation of aliens in Moria. Granted, I'm no specialist on the lore beyond The Hobbit & LotR, but the shadow mobs felt so out of place… surely, there must have been some way to keep things fresh without turning to the drawings of H.R. Giger.

That's the main gist of it for me. Having said all that, I sometimes get the urge to log into my lifetime account… but I've already played the only three classes that interest me (guardian, burglar, & loremaster), and I don't foresee them releasing any new classes any time soon given lore constraints.

…oh, and I also don't like how they've put up virtual advertisements for the "Lotro Store" in many of the interfaces. The last thing I want to be reminded of in a Tolkien-inspired game is corporate America.

[pibbur0x2a]

Ahh, that explains it (the LOTRO thingie). I don't raid and I don't do skirmishes, so those things don't affect me.

I share your sentiments regarding the ads, but I'm pretty good at overlooking things (wife's not completely happy about that), so that doesn't affect me much either.

BTW: Did you try the Warden or the Rune Keeper?

[Drithius]

I went back to the game briefly about a year back and tried to get interested in the warden... I think I quit again around level 20 or so. Never tried the RK though.