Temple of Elemental Evil

[Ovenall]

I just picked this up from GOG a week or so ago and have been messing around with it. I've installed the Circle of Eight Mod and fix- pack and have created dozens of characters and played some of the opening bits to get a taste of how the game works.

Anyone want to share any thoughts or discuss this game? I can't find much about it here at RPG Watch, other than a brief mention once in a while in a comment.

Some initial thoughts: The Hommlet villager quests are almost laughably dull. I pursued the one match-making quest to its end, converting people's religions and whatnot, thinking something interesting would happen. Ha. And it took about an hour real-time running back and forth. The Circle of Eight add-on "Welkwood Bog" area is much more fun, but I didn't understand what was happening, or else I missed some crucial info. What's the story behind the various monsters that appear, threaten you, then disappear? I think that happens several times in this area, but I never found out what it was about. I finished the quest, killing the bad guy and his minions, but there wasn't any info about this.

I then went to the Meadows area and got my ass kicked. I'm at the moat house now and having a much easier time, though cheating with my stats has likely helped... maybe too much. I'm seriously thinking about starting over with less maxxed out characters.

The random encounters are a bit silly. Sometimes it's two skeletons. Another time it was six brown bears that just steamrolled me. It's quirky, and I'm keeping tons of saves, but a bit silly.

Does anyone know what items like helmets, chain gloves or boots do? Their description shows no benefit to AC, and I don't see anything about reducing criticals, or any benefit at all.

I know it's notoriously buggy, but the Co8 pack allegedly fixes many of them. What should I look out for? I am not using quick save or auto save.

Any comments, thoughts, opinions or otherwise are much appreciated. No giant spoilers please, though. General mid spoilers might be OK though. Thanks.

[DArtagnan]

The game is an excellent tactical combat simulator with an absolutely minimal story element.

It's hard until you learn the ropes of the 3.5 combat system, and I remember having some difficulty with the first battles - because I didn't really min/max at that point. Since then, though, I've become an obsessive min/max'er (WoW did this to me), and I find most games of this nature somewhat easy after the initial investment of learning the rules and intricacies.

Lots of party combo options, and I tend to favor ranged sneak attacks and dual wielding. Though a simple greatsword fighter with cleave/great cleave focusing on strength is always nice.

If you're a PnP roleplayer - it will also have a terrific nostalgia factor, and I remember really liking some of the music as well.

But as a thorough CRPG experience, it doesn't really work. I can recommend lots of great ones, but I'm sure you've played most of them.

[Ovenall]

I'm really liking it so far, maybe more than I thought I would. I always prefer the beginnings of these games. I enjoy having limited abilities and lose interest when games become gigantic spell-casting carnivals... which is probably why I STILL haven't finished BG2, even after several attempts.

I'm not finding it overly difficult. But it requires being extremely methodic. With such low level characters you're basically out of spells after most fights, which requires a trip back to town between each one. Way too many random monsters when trying to rest, though I suppose that can help you grind out a level or two.

More major irritations are monsters getting blocked from view by characters or terrain (where your characters should be able to see them... but they're blocked to the guy behind the keyboard). Another issue is when trying to attack, sometimes it's impossible to tell if you're close enough or not. And if you try, and you are indeed too far away, you lose a turn, which is stupid. I've found a bug (I think) where my cleric's morning star (listed as piercing and bludgeoning damage) is getting resisted by zombies (who come up as having resistance to slashing damage). Makes me wonder how many of these "behind the scene" bugs there are.

[DArtagnan]

I'm really liking it so far, maybe more than I thought I would. I always prefer the beginnings of these games. I enjoy having limited abilities and lose interest when games become gigantic spell-casting carnivals… which is probably why I STILL haven't finished BG2, even after several attempts.

I know what you mean, though I tend to enjoy games with decent progression paths. 3.5 has a very nice and steady way of moving your characters forward - and I always focus on characters with physical damage. I'm not really a mage/cleric player - so I tend to go for the simple spells, like Fireball and buffs :)


I'm not finding it overly difficult. But it requires being extremely methodic. With such low level characters you're basically out of spells after most fights, which requires a trip back to town between each one. Way too many random monsters when trying to rest, though I suppose that can help you grind out a level or two.

I wouldn't say it was that difficult either. There ARE a lot of grindy combats in the game, though, and it sort of reminds me of Wizardy in that way. You'll have to love the combat system to get through it :)

More major irritations are monsters getting blocked from view by characters or terrain (where your characters should be able to see them… but they're blocked to the guy behind the keyboard). Another issue is when trying to attack, sometimes it's impossible to tell if you're close enough or not. And if you try, and you are indeed too far away, you lose a turn, which is stupid. I've found a bug (I think) where my cleric's morning star (listed as piercing and bludgeoning damage) is getting resisted by zombies (who come up as having resistance to slashing damage). Makes me wonder how many of these "behind the scene" bugs there are.

It's been a while since I last played it, but I seem to recall the color of circles (or something) indicating what was within range and attackable. It adhered pretty strictly to the 3.5 rules, which means you can only make a "standard" attack after moving and not a full attack. Certain kinds of attacks require you to expend a full turn. Also, I think they implemented special movies like charge, which can be a big help in some fights.

Exploiting the attack of opportunity rules is also key in the early fights.

[blatantninja]

T I didn't really min/max at that point.

What is min/max?

[dteowner]

Character optimization, bn. Combining stats, skills, feats, weapons, and such into the peak killing machine.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Similar to Powergaming, if I understand it correctly.

[Thrasher]

Min/Max refers to minimizing unecessary stats and maximizing useful stats for the build you have in mind. Creating dump stats - like Charisma, for a non-talky fighter character - and setting them to 3, so you have more points for strength, or what have you.

[Thrasher]

Exploiting the attack of opportunity rules is also key in the early fights.

Also, learn to leverage the 2 foot step free move.

[DArtagnan]

Also, learn to leverage the 2 foot step free move.

That's "5-foot step" and yeah, very true :)

[Thrasher]

I'm getting my ToEE confused with my ballroom dancing. Always happens. ;)

[DArtagnan]

Not sure I want to know about that ;)

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Min/Max refers to minimizing unecessary stats and maximizing useful stats for the build you have in mind. Creating dump stats - like Charisma, for a non-talky fighter character - and setting them to 3, so you have more points for strength, or what have you.

This is exactly what I call "Power-Gaming".

Here in Germany, it's advocates call the direct opposite "Bauer-Gaming", from "Bauer" = "Farmer".

[ChienAboyeur]

Quite of the most adored so called RPGs by so called RPGers are games dedicated to munckins.

RPGs have been digging their own grave from start, one could say.

[DArtagnan]

"Meanwhile… Back in the real world."

[EvilManagedCare]

I remember the interviews with the developers before its release and was so excited because it was going to be D&D was meant to be played on your PC. Not only that, I would get to play through a 1st edition module only hinted at in the author's notes from T1 "The Village of Hommlet" I had bought in the 80's. I couldn't wait. Not only that, Troika vowed to release the G-D-Q modules as well. I was in heaven...

Then it came out frought with issues. I loved the graphics, especially the pre-rendered backgrounds. I was seeing the locations described in T1 on my monitor. The opening scenarios were a neat innovation based on the alignment of your party, but some were pretty shallow. A lack of portraits in character generation was a disappointment, no game-breaker though. However, the NPCs and quests were clearly not complete. The turn based combat was nice, but also had its share of issues.

Suffice it to say this game broke my heart. Sure, patches were released, but this thing was broken with a capital B. Then Troika went belly-up and my hope for a redeeming sequel went with it. I have considered playing it again but would only use user patches that fix the game. User content mods are often disappointing or downright silly.

But for under $10 you probably can't go wrong. I rushed out and bought it for $49.99 on the release date.

[Ovenall]

EvilManagedCare-

Check it out again. I've been playing with the Co8 fixes for several hours now and am through the moat house dungeon, and I've also played through the beginning a few times with different characters. I've seen a couple issues, but no real bugs at all. The role playing part is definitely a low point, but the battles are great, as is the very, very old school D&D feel. Without giving too much away, the giant crayfish hidden in the water really brought me back to 1983 table top days in a way no other CRPG has ever done. So far at least, this game nails the simpler, old days of D&D. I even love the somewhat generic setting, as it feels like a real beginning in a module I bought back at the hobby shop when I was 12.

Maybe it falls apart from here, but I'm having lots of fun with it.

Also, I love the simple, clean interface. I never want to see another clichéd yellowed-paper with phony "Olde English" typefaces in a CRPG. And the music is nice and moody without being the typical orchestral dreck that 99% of these games and movies use. The tiny little characters are charming looking and nicely animated, and the backgrounds are gloomy but nicely put together. I even like the way the map is revealed in dungeons when you're sneaking around.

[Thrasher]

Roleplay really comes into the game when you go to the other town and also enter the temple proper. I think the differences for an evil playthrough are rather signficant.

[Fnord]

Indeed, the game is actually worth at least two playthroughs, due to the differences between evil & good.

Overall, I find ToEE to be troikas least shining gem. It i still a gem, but it could have done with a lot more polish. Apart from the bugs & a slightly unfinished state, this game feels like the perfect game for anyone who agrees with Gary Gygax's views on roleplaying (at least his views during the late 70's up to and including the 80's). It is a tactical dungeon crawler, and a rather good one at that. The game system is (apart from a few bugs) very faithful to its pen & paper counterpart, to the degree that it can be frustrating for anyone who does not have at least a basic understanding of D&D 3.5.
I've never been a pen & paper D&D fan (I much prefer games like Vampire, Eon, Blue Planet, Fading suns, Mutant, Kult, Call of cthulhu and so on), so I don't know how faithful it actually is to its source material (considering it does not take place in one of the standard D&D settings), but from what I've heard, it is faithful enough to be an enjoyable nostalgia trip.

[Ubbax]

Indeed, the game is actually worth at least two playthroughs, due to the differences between evil & good.

Overall, I find ToEE to be troikas least shining gem. It i still a gem, but it could have done with a lot more polish. Apart from the bugs & a slightly unfinished state, this game feels like the perfect game for anyone who agrees with Gary Gygax's views on roleplaying (at least his views during the late 70's up to and including the 80's). It is a tactical dungeon crawler, and a rather good one at that. The game system is (apart from a few bugs) very faithful to its pen & paper counterpart, to the degree that it can be frustrating for anyone who does not have at least a basic understanding of D&D 3.5.
I've never been a pen & paper D&D fan (I much prefer games like Vampire, Eon, Blue Planet, Fading suns, Mutant, Kult, Call of cthulhu and so on), so I don't know how faithful it actually is to its source material (considering it does not take place in one of the standard D&D settings), but from what I've heard, it is faithful enough to be an enjoyable nostalgia trip.

Would you clarify what you meant by the text I've italicized and emboldened?

The Temple of Elemental Evil takes place in the Greyhawk setting. Greyhawk was created by D&D co-creator Gary Gygax. It is the setting most closely identified with the development of D&D. On the 30th annniversary of Dungeons & Dragons in 2004 it was ranked the 4th greatest Dungeons & Dragons adventure of all time by Dungeon magazine. Dungeons & Dragons campaign settings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_campaign_settings) , World of Greyhawk ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyhawk)

I found the pc game, based on the original T1-4 module The Temple of Elemental Evil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Temple_of_Elemental_Evil) faithfull enough to the original source material that it could be referred to as a walkthrough/used as a guide. Not that I would do such a thing.. at least not while young minds were watching ;)

Ubbax
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek instead what they sought" - Lao Tzu

[Fnord]

Greyhawk is not the most high profile setting, at least not for someone who is an outside observer. I know that it has been around for a long time, and that it has influenced the game quite a bit, heck it was even a (the?) major setting for 3rd edition, but it lacks the high profile value of Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Krynn, Planescape and heck, it would seem like most people (that I have talked D&D with) known more about Dark sun than Greyhawk.

I should probably have worded that sentence better though.

[ChienAboyeur]

Roleplay really comes into the game when you go to the other town and also enter the temple proper. I think the differences for an evil playthrough are rather signficant.

Alignment can support RP or be simply a door A vs door B option.

Even with that, it is another regression area for RPGs as a genre as alignment has grown shallower as years passed.

[JDR13]

Greyhawk is not the most high profile setting, at least not for someone who is an outside observer. I know that it has been around for a long time, and that it has influenced the game quite a bit, heck it was even a (the?) major setting for 3rd edition, but it lacks the high profile value of Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Krynn, Planescape and heck, it would seem like most people (that I have talked D&D with) known more about Dark sun than Greyhawk.


He didn't claim it was the most high profile setting.

Also, other than Forgotten Realms, I wouldn't say any of the settings you listed are high profile.

[Ubbax]

Greyhawk is not the most high profile setting, at least not for someone who is an outside observer. I know that it has been around for a long time, and that it has influenced the game quite a bit, heck it was even a (the?) major setting for 3rd edition, but it lacks the high profile value of Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Krynn, Planescape and heck, it would seem like most people (that I have talked D&D with) known more about Dark sun than Greyhawk.

I should probably have worded that sentence better though.

Thanks for the response. Just so you know; I asked for clarification simply because I'm interested in what others might view as the "..standard settings.." or as you clarified "..the most high profile setting.." .

The Gaming Industry is ever evolving. I'm always interested in the views of others and view gathering such knowledge as not only important but valuable.

He didn't claim it was the most high profile setting.

Also, other than Forgotten Realms, I wouldn't say any of the settings you listed are high profile. .

@ both FNord & JDR13
I think if viewed from a Computer Gaming perspective then those mentioned settings (Forgotten Realms, Planescape, Dark sun, Krynn, and Eberron ) would indeed be viewed as High Profile simply by virtue of their having been used for many PC Games.

I would go on however diverted the original thread enough; apologies.

Ubbax
"A man must be both stupid and uncharitable who believes there is no virtue or truth but on his own side."—Joseph Addison

[Ovenall]

I grew up and learned on Greyhawk. I had a big color map of the world on my wall as a kid. Greyhawk world IS D&D to me.

I got back into gaming around 2003 or so, and started with Neverwinter Nights. I had no idea what Neverwinter was (didn't even know it was a city until I started up the game) and I still don't really know much about the world outside of Neverwinter, Baldur's Gate and Amn (I can't even remember the name of the city in BG2!)

[Fnord]

He didn't claim it was the most high profile setting.

Also, other than Forgotten Realms, I wouldn't say any of the settings you listed are high profile.
No, but I was explaining what I meant with standard D&D settings, which probably should have been worded differently.

Eberron is the current "default setting" for D&D, is it not? Planescape might not be in the spotlight right now, but I remember it being one of the settings that got a lot of attention back during the late 90's, and the setting that even most D&D haters claimed that they liked. Krynn was a high profile setting back when the dragonlance books were popular, and while it has stepped out of the spotlight, it is still a setting that a lot of people are familiar with, often more so than the other settings (with the exception of Forgotten realms). There were also a handful of computer games released for this setting. Dark sun had a few PC games released, and seem to be back in the spotlight again in the pen & paper RPG world.

[JDR13]

Eberron is the current "default setting" for D&D, is it not? Planescape might not be in the spotlight right now, but I remember it being one of the settings that got a lot of attention back during the late 90's, and the setting that even most D&D haters claimed that they liked. Krynn was a high profile setting back when the dragonlance books were popular, and while it has stepped out of the spotlight, it is still a setting that a lot of people are familiar with, often more so than the other settings (with the exception of Forgotten realms). There were also a handful of computer games released for this setting. Dark sun had a few PC games released, and seem to be back in the spotlight again in the pen & paper RPG world.

To D&D fans maybe, but I was talking about those "outside observers" you mentioned.

Eberron had one game based on that setting, and it wasn't very popular. Krynn and Dark Sun haven't done much in the last 15 years. Forgotten Realms is really the only one that's familiar to a lot of non-D&D nerds, thanks to BG, IWD, and NWN.

[Fnord]

I'm not a D&D fan, heck I've only played a very small amount of D&D, but D&D is still so influential and big that even as an outside observer, a person who does not play D&D (but who do play pen and paper RPGs), it is hard to not get at least a bit of information about D&D. In particular when there are adds for D&D in the magazines and D&D books in the bookstore.

And it might very well be a regional difference, but over here, Dragonlance is still very well known, even among non D&Ders, as is Planescape (in large due to Planescape torment, a game which it seems like everyone with an interest in CRPGs has at least played). It is a high profile setting because it is well known. As for Dark sun, it just seem to get a lot of shelf space, for some reason, and people still seem to remember the two SSI Dark sun games.

[JDR13]

Ah ok. I wasn't talking about just getting a bit of information, I was talking about those settings being high profile outside of D&D circles.

[Fnord]

Well, most D&D settings are not very famous outside of D&D circles. Heck, the only reason people know of Spelljammer is due to Boo. But I do think that the ones I mentioned are relatively well known among CRPGers/fantasy readers. Forgotten realms is, without a shadow of a doubt, the most famous D&D setting, the one that almost everyone knows about, even if they don't enjoy fantasy or CRPGs, but in my experience, the others that I mentioned are still well known (Dark sun is the only one of those that I think might require a bit more specialized RPG knowledge). It is also possible that we have regional differences, the dragonlance books got quite a lot of exposure when they were released, and can still be found in almost every library & bookstore around here.

[Ovenall]

Hey guys, can we get the thread a little back on topic? I appreciate conversation, but this has veered off track.

Anyway, I kept pushing on without a restart. Still having fun, but I haven't played in a couple days.

[JDR13]

Anyway, I kept pushing on without a restart. Still having fun, but I haven't played in a couple days.

That's usually a bad sign. If I'm really enjoying a game, I'll never go more than a full day without playing it, even if it's only for 30 minutes or so.

Especially with RPGs, where I'll lose the immersion factor and start feeling disconnected if I go multiple days without playing.

Btw, this thread is starting to make me really want to replay ToEE. I haven't played it since shortly after it was released, and I just realized how long that's been. I can't believe it's been nearly 8 years already since it was released.

[Thrasher]

BTW, there was a hilariously well done evil Let's Play thread on the Codex. One of the most enjoyable in the playground. Looks like it fell off the forum. It must have been a few years old. :(

[Ford Taurus]

Forgotten realms is, without a shadow of a doubt, the most famous D&D setting, the one that almost everyone knows about, even if they don't enjoy fantasy or CRPGs,

I'd have to disagree - I think it may be more generational (as opposed even to regional) as I think Greyhawk is definitely the most well known setting. I started playing PNP regularly in the early 80's and for a good 10 years that was the 'main' campaign world everyone knew, whether locally or at the various 'cons. I don't think Forgotten Realms even came around or was popular till the early 90's?

Back on topic - I really enjoyed the combat system and some of the little nods to the pen and paper in TOEE, I always felt like it was somewhat unfinished as far as story and content. Almost like the devs set out to make a D&D tool-set more than a game. Still well worth some hours playing with for the price, especially with the fan mods/patches.

[Ovenall]

That's usually a bad sign. If I'm really enjoying a game, I'll never go more than a full day without playing it, even if it's only for 30 minutes or so.

Especially with RPGs, where I'll lose the immersion factor and start feeling disconnected if I go multiple days without playing.

Dude, I never get to play games every single day. I'm 40 years old and married, and have a life on top of that.

[JDR13]

Dude, I never get to play games every single day. I'm 40 years old and married, and have a life on top of that.

Bah... paltry excuses. ;)

How many children, and how old are they?

[Ovenall]

No kids. Ever.

[JDR13]

Meh… The "I have a life" remark doesn't hold as much water without kiddies. :)

[DArtagnan]

I thought it was the other way around, actually :)

[Pessimeister]

I found the combat engine in ToEE a real delight to experience and enjoy. It's probably the best western cRPG turn based combat engine we've had since the goldbox games really. It had so much more potential to be utilised for further modules.

But sadly I felt that the story was very lacklustre by virtue of it being a straight oldschool dungeon crawler conversion. For me it didn't favour particularly well when compared to BG/BG2 for richness. Finishing up the Hommlet quests was a real chore the second time around, so much so that I skipped a few and ended up trying to finish the game as quickly as I could.

I've finished it twice - first without the Co8 patches (neutral) and then with them for my evil playthrough. I'll have to try my good aligned playthrough some time. I'd also like to check out the Keep on the Borderlands demo the Co8 guys made at some point. Any feedback from players here about that?

Interestingly, the soundtrack is quite unique in style, with the electronic ambient touches. I've actually been using it in the background whilst playing Ruins of Myth Drannor lately.

Anyway, good to see ToEE getting some love. ;) There's also a FRUA (Forgotten Realms Unlimited Adventures) release of the game which is apparently more true to the source material, though I have yet to test it.

[Ovenall]

I absolutely love the music in ToEE. I'm so tired of the fake orchestral crap that gets spooged all over every other CRPG.

I'm at the Temple now and really haven't encountered any glitches that I'm aware of. The town quests are laughably bad though, and I can see why this game never really made a mark. Other than the dungeon crawl stuff the role-playing and interacting with NPCs part is really bad.

It's a damn shame this flopped. I agree the engine is awesome. I much prefer it to Infinity. And the radial menu is great. It's so much easier to play, and there's always a reminder of the various possible things you can do with each character. If you're a bit stumped for a turn, it's so simple to quickly browse through your options.

[Ovenall]

An update:

I've still been playing this on and off. I've had three different corrupted save games now, very irritating. I've been making tons of separate saves, so it's pretty infrequent, but still annoying.

But the biggest gripe I have is the Temple itself. I just don't get it. It's a gigantic Temple of Evil (I get that part) full of people, monsters, etc. What the heck am I doing there? I started out trying to talk to the priests, etc., but now I think I'm going to just wipe everyone out. Even wearing the disguise robes some things attack, some don't. The whole concept behind the game just isn't well thought out.

And I'll likely get flamed for this, but the resting system is just tedious. I know it's a throwback to old D&D tabletop days, but after nearly every battle you need to climb back to the top floor, exit the temple, trek back to town, etc. Random encounters happen almost every single time you try to rest to regain spells. Literally almost every time.

It gets a little tedious. In tabletop you could say "we head back to town", the DM would roll to see if there was an encounter along the way, and that's that. In this game you micromanage your return over and over and over, eating up significant chunks of time each time.

Ah well. It's still a pretty good game, and I'm surprised by how little I've ever heard of it.

[Thrasher]

Hmm, I didn't get a single crash after patched up with Co8 fixes on Win2K. Of course, this was years ago (8 years about, with version V3-0-4 of the "fan fixes"). Who knows what's been screwed up since...

[Ovenall]

It doesn't crash. What happens is when you try to load a corrupted save file, a notice comes up telling you it's corrupt and won't load.

I have another kind of funny bug as well that I just remembered. My cleric is using Lareth's club of striking, which is like a 1d6 weapon that has some additional damage (+2 I think, plus some small random factor). She has 18 strength, and normally this hits for like 10-15 points… something like that.

She also has War as her domain, and has the Magic Weapon spell. I used that on the club, and when it's active she hits for 200 or so damage per hit, and she scored a critical that was over 400. And this is at level five I think. Weird.

[Thrasher]

I didn't get any corruptions. But that's some funny damage bug!

[Ovenall]

Just tested out the damage bug a couple more times. It's repeatable. She still seems to hit as often, but she hits for 200+ whenever she connects.