First Person RPG's - Help me List Em

[Dark Phoenix]

My very favorite genre of games is the First Person RPG. This was the very first type of FPS and RPG ever made and is still the Best IMO. Castle Wolfenstein, Heretic, Hexen, Arena, The Wizardry Series (not to mention the D&D games back then) - These were The ones that started it all. I started gaming on these back in the early 90's. Sure FPS and RPG has "evolved" over the years, heck some folks still think top down RPG's are king and don't even consider Heretic like games to be RPG's.

I'm trying to list as many Modern Type FPS RPG's as I can. Why? I want to play them all. I just came across this forum and thought I'd ask here to help me with my list. I have started a list on another forum but I didn't get many replies I think mostly because it isn't RPG oriented. That list is here: http://board.zuxxez.com/showthread.php?t=33698

So far, these are the games we have come up with. Please feel free to add games to this list. (I'm looking for PC games not for consoles)

Morrowind
Oblivion
Gothic 2 & 3
Deus Ex 1 and 2
Two Worlds ( 3rd person combat)
Dark Messiah of Might and Magic
System Shock 2
Vampire the Masquerade - Bloodlines
Neuro Hunter ( <— great little known game)
Thief 1, 2 & 3
Boiling Point: Road to Hell
White Gold ( Xesus 2)
Precursors
Arx Fatalis
Grand Theft Auto San Andreas and GTA 4 ( possible with Mods)
Hellgate: London
Fallout 3
Borderlands
Fallout New Vegas
S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow Of Chernobyl
S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Clear Sky
S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Call of Pripyat'

Please help me add to this list. You can list all PC FPS/RPG games that can be played in First Person either with Mods or by design to do both or have elements of both such as Two Worlds. If you list a game with First Person enabled with a Mod make sure it works well. Risen and The Witcher have such FPS mods but they do not work well at all so I left them off the list - in other words the game has to be nicely playable.

Thank You !

[purpleblob]

Half-Life?
Mass Effect 1 & 2?

[GhanBuriGhan]

Hmmm, whats your definition of "modern"? And how strong should the RPG elements be? No MMO's? I didn't know the Gothics could be played 1st person.

Nehrim (excellent total conversion mod for Ovlivion)
Jedi Outcast (not many Rpg elements, but great melee and forcepower combat).

[skavenhorde]

You took GTA San Andreas and GTA 4 off your list from the other site. I don't think you'll have too many people "offended" by those games. Some games do upset me, but it's simply a matter of not playing them.

However, you'll probably get a huge argument about whether or not those games are RPGs ;) I don't think they are, but I love em anyways.

Add Frayed Knights (http://rampantgames.com/frayedknights/) to your list. It'll be out sometime this year.

[Dark Phoenix]

purpleblob, - Hmm do I consider Half Life an RPG for the purposes of my list. Good question. I think that like Jedi Outcast and it's brother Jedi Academy should be listed as shooters with some RPG elements. Mass Effect 1 and 2 cannot be played at all in first person, they are Over The Shoulder. To me they might as well be third person because they still have that not looking through the characters eyes effect and they hide the screen from view. I would love to play them first person but no one has made a fps mod for them.

Which brings me to GhanBuriGhan - How modern? A good first person view not in a window/boarder like Arena or Wizardry. System Shock 2 is old 98 I think but it has such a free un bordered view. (or if you can resize to get most of the border out of the way like the Heretic/Hexen games)

How many RPG elements does a game have to have before it makes the transition from FPS to FPS/RPG Hybrid is hard to say. I think the inclusion of a large inventory ( having to find lots of stuff to complete quests) plus role playing character building/social elements is a must. Some games do have lots of stuff like the Jedi Academy games or the awesome Star Trek Elite Force 1 and 2 games but they player does not acquire these items in quests like they would in an RPG. Also having a large sandbox type open world to explore is preferred, instead of a linear closed gameplay.

I can't play 3rd person games.. well I can.. and I have, like Max Payne 1 & 2 but I try to stay away from them. Gothic 2 and 3 was a joy to play in first person, you just set your middle mouse button to zoom in all the way. Games such as these are fine to list too if they work well for a first person experience.

Personally I wish more game devs would give you a choice between both views, 3rd and 1st person because they will appeal to a larger fan base and make lots more money. It seems dumb not to do this IMO.

I suppose MMO's could be listed for benefit of others but I won't play them. I have tried a couple and have been very disappointed in them gameplay wise.

[Dark Phoenix]

skavenhorde - I include GTA SA and GTA 4 because even though they don't have strong character building they make up for it in huge sandbox world open-ended gameplay/ non linear quests.

~~~~

I had heard of Nehrim but didn't know it was now in English.. awesome - Getting it. ->Info: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/09/13/oblivion-megamod-nehrim-in-english/

Getting the demo of Frayed Knights too !

[skavenhorde]

Ahh I see they are in the list. Missed them the first time. Well to each their own and we've had more than a few discussions on what an rpgs is so if you think they are then put them in :)

Bioshock 1 & 2

[SirJames]

wizardry 8 was the same year as morrowind, I think. That was a more modern take on party based FPS RPG.

[Dark Phoenix]

How could I forget Bioshock 1 & 2? Thanks skavenhorde. It doesn't have as many RPG elements as some others but it does have some. I guess this is one game that blurs the lines. That being said Singularity was an awesome game also with some but not a lot of RPG elements. (as in weapon upgrades)

So hard to say where to draw the line. I suppose if it's a straight shooter like Doom it's not any sort of RPG but could it be argued that Doom 3 doesn't have any rpg elements? I guess we have to weed out what is and what isn't in a game. Most games are some type of shooters. Most games let you get health and or armor. I think if a game is either non linear or has open ended decision making gameplay it can be an RPG. Most of these do have large inventories. Then there are the Bioshock and Singularity type games that only have some of these. Tell ya folks what.. throw a game out there and we'll let your peers decide if it should be an RPG or not LOL. Listing some games with only a few RPG elements is fine with me cus I'd still be apt to wanna play them for their RPG qualities.

[HiddenX]

Some older ones: (1993 and newer)
Betrayal at Krondor 1993
Might & Magic World of Xeen (4+5) 1993
System Shock 1994
Ravenloft: Strahd's Possession 1994
Realms of Arkania Trilogy 1994
Albion 1995
Stonekeep 1995
Lords of Midnight 1995
Daggerfall 1995
Ravenloft 2: The Stone Prophet 1995
Anvil of dawn 1996
Wizardry Gold 1996
Amulets & Armor 1997
Lands of Lore: Guardians of Destiny 1997
Darkstone 1997
Might & Magic 6 1998
Might & Magic 7 1999
Outcast 1999
Wheel of Time 1999
Gothic 2001
Mount & Blade 2005

[Dark Phoenix]

Again.. not to beat a dead dog.. what is an RPG? Some of you may shoot me for this but how about a First Person Space Combat & Trading Sim RPG?

Enter: Evochron Mercenary
http://www.starwraith.com/evochronmercenary/index.htm

No, it may not be the traditional RPG as one might think but it has many elements of RPG's. Trading and large inventories, a seamless open sandbox world and the ability to choose the outcome of the game in any way you wish/character development.

You can even fly from the middle of space, across galaxies right down to the planets surface and land. How cool is that?

Just throwing this out there…

Thanks for the list of oldies HiddenX. Trying to obtain Outcast. Wheel of Time I bought years ago and still play. ( I read all the books, loved em.)

I never actually played Wizardry 8 Sir James, although I do own a copy. I need to look into that sometime if I can find it.

[Maylander]

Pretty sure the entire Gothic series is mainly 3rd person. Well, there is an option to switch to first person, but I've never heard of anyone actually fighting like that. I don't even know if it's possible.

[kalniel]

Eye of the beholder 1, 2 and 3
Lands of lore 1, 2 and 3
Might and magic 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
Ultima underground 1 and 2.
Arena, Daggerfall

[txa1265]

Half-Life?
Mass Effect 1 & 2?

Hmmm, whats your definition of "modern"? And how strong should the RPG elements be? No MMO's? I didn't know the Gothics could be played 1st person.

Nehrim (excellent total conversion mod for Ovlivion)
Jedi Outcast (not many Rpg elements, but great melee and forcepower combat).

How could Half-Life 1/2 be considered RPG? They have no more RPG elements than Doom/Quake/etc ... and in that case consider Duke Nukem 3D ...

Jedi Knight is the most RPG-est of the series, with JKII and Jedi Academy also having elements of choice and development ... probably making it very close to some games truly considered as a RPG.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

- Realms Of Arcania - just putside of the battles
- Stonekeep
- Battle Isle : Incubation, but I don't know whether this really counts as an RPG. It's rather like some kind of turn-based tactics shooter.

[JemyM]

Pathologic

[JDR13]

It seems to me that you just like first-person games in general. There's quite a few non-RPGs in that list, and 3rd person games as well.



Neuro Hunter ( <— great little known game)

I imported a copy of Neuro Hunter from the UK a few years ago, but never got around to playing it. I heard it's like a poor man's System Shock 2. I can somewhat recall playing the demo.

[Dark Phoenix]

It seems to me that you just like first-person games in general. There's quite a few non-RPGs in that list, and 3rd person games as well.


Again I suppose it depends on your definition of RPG. Just for kicks and comparisons, what games in that list do you not consider RPG?

Perhaps also it would help to know your definition of an RPG.

All of the games in my list are known for having many RPG elements and are generally considered RPG's as I understand it. There are no 3rd person games in my list that cannot be played well in 1st person. Those are my 2 rules for this thread, no 3rd person games that cannot be played in 1st person and must have enough RPG elements to be called an RPG. Otherwise they are not hybrids but shooters with RPG elements.

Maylander, Check the info on Gothic 2 and 3. They were designed on purpose to be played either in 1st or 3rd person. It's part of the official hype they have in their game features. Playing combat in them was not only possible, but I could not play them any other way. It was pure Gothic combat heaven. Because my view was seeing through No Name's eyes I had to fight just like I would in real life, by only being able to see whats in front of me. I feel like being able to see the attacking characters around me with a 3rd person view is cheating and is more of a handicap. I prefer the challenge of 1st person combat because that's how you would see things in real life. IMO it's way more realistic and immersive.

[DeepO]

Maylander, Check the info on Gothic 2 and 3. They were designed on purpose to be played either in 1st or 3rd person. It's part of the official hype they have in their game features. Playing combat in them was not only possible, but I could not play them any other way.
Combat in 1st person was only possible in Gothic 3, not in Gothic 2, at least not without mods.

The Witcher (with a mod (http://forum.worldofplayers.de/forum/showthread.php?t=351607))

[JDR13]

If you're going to consider something an RPG just because it shares a few common elements, then there's almost no limit to what you can list as an RPG.

Also, The Gothic's were definitely not intended for primarily first-person play. Not saying they can't be played that way, but they were obviously designed for 3rd person first.

[Fnord]

Then I'll chip in with The void, one of the more unique games out there. Often categorized as an adventure game, although I really don't agree with this categorization, it has very little in common with AGs (it does by the way have more RPG elements than Half life 2). Though the only reason why I mention it is because I think the game deserves more attention, and because I want to encourage developers to make more games that strays away from the beaten path.

[kalniel]

Then I'll chip in with The void, one of the more unique games out there. Often categorized as an adventure game, although I really don't agree with this categorization, it has very little in common with AGs (it does by the way have more RPG elements than Half life 2). T

I spent a lot of time playing it as a minigame in Daggerfall :p

[ChienAboyeur]

If you're going to consider something an RPG just because it shares a few common elements, then there's almost no limit to what you can list as an RPG.



It is all subjective.

What I still dont understand is why people submit lists of games for a genre on a site posters consider it to be all subjective?

To the OP, RPGs are here, on this site, all subjective. That is your own subjectivity that makes a game a RPG.
It is very hard for anyone to add to your list as their options are unlikely to fit your own subjectivity.

Spell Force be with you though.

[Icefire]

How a bout an older game called "Strife." IIRC, it had rpg-elements.

[DeepO]

Albion 1995
I´d add the game is a 2D/3D hybrid and, as far as I remember, leaning more to the top down 2D side. Also, while I think it´s a great game overall, I consider the way its 1st person was implemented to be terrible (and the game´s biggest weakness).

[Dark Phoenix]

If you're going to consider something an RPG just because it shares a few common elements, then there's almost no limit to what you can list as an RPG.

You never answered my question. Whats your definition of an RPG?

A few RPG elements - meaning at least 3 - 3 RPG elements are not enough for you to make an RPG?

What RPG elements do you consider important for a game to be called an RPG?

I want your answer because I'm trying to understand how you can say some games on my initial list above are not RPG's.

Personally I know it's all subjective, and there are no hard and fast rules. You can find games the devs even said are PRG's and they do not share all the same RPG elements with other known PRG games.

ChienAboyeur, I don't think I'm being to obtuse in my RPG requirements for this list of "Modern First Person RPG's" I ask 2 things, that it be First Person and have enough RPG elements to be generally considered an RPG. I realize there will be some differences of opinion as to if a game is really an RPG or not, but I'm o.k. with that. I want folks to throw those games out there also because even if it only has 2 RPG elements, it may still be a fun game worth playing.

Thanks for the answers so far folks, please keep em coming.

[Dark Phoenix]

How a bout an older game called "Strife." IIRC, it had rpg-elements.

I remember playing Strife back in the day and loved it. I wish there was a modern remake.

[JDR13]

You never answered my question. Whats your definition of an RPG?

A few RPG elements - meaning at least 3 - 3 RPG elements are not enough for you to make an RPG?

What RPG elements do you consider important for a game to be called an RPG?

I want your answer because I'm trying to understand how you can say some games on my initial list above are not RPG's.

Personally I know it's all subjective, and there are no hard and fast rules. You can find games the devs even said are PRG's and they do not share all the same RPG elements with other known PRG games.

You've already answered the question. If you know that it's all subjective then why bother asking others what their definition of an RPG is?

You obviously have very loose requirements if you're going to include games like GTA. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but that's definitely an example of something that I wouldn't include.

[Drithius]

Or Hellgate: London - that's as much an RPG as Doom ! One of the few games in which I couldn't click 'next' on the quest dialog fast enough.

[txa1265]

Or Hellgate: London - that's as much an RPG as Doom ! One of the few games in which I couldn't click 'next' on the quest dialog fast enough.

Um ... no. Hell, Doom is very limited even for a FPS! Hellgate had loads of problems, but it did offer RPG-lite progression typical of many action-RPGs.

[Jhari]

I suppose I have a narrower definition of RPG, because i'd not include many of those game on your list.

To my mind, an RPG:
-Allows the creation and use of many types of characters. Pre rolled characters, such as in Half-Life, invalidates that game as an RPG.
-Provides character growth during the game, in such a way that the player chooses the growth path of the character.
-Provides different ways to complete the game.
-Provides multiple activities not necessarily related to the main quest.
- Choices and consequences, with the ability to change the flow of the game.
-Replayability: Depending on the type of character the player uses, different paths, quests, and outcomes will be available.

And, increasingly, the ability to play the game in a meaningful way WITHOUT touching the main quest. Bethesda games are famous for this.

[JDR13]

Um … no. Hell, Doom is very limited even for a FPS! Hellgate had loads of problems, but it did offer RPG-lite progression typical of many action-RPGs.

Doom is limited? Maybe by today's standards, but that game blew people's minds in 1993. :)

[ChienAboyeur]

You've already answered the question. If you know that it's all subjective then why bother asking others what their definition of an RPG is?

You obviously have very loose requirements if you're going to include games like GTA. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but that's definitely an example of something that I wouldn't include.

Not what I wrote. I wrote that for some, as shown on this site, RGP genre is all subjective. And I found weird that people for whom RPG is all subjective come up with comments like


If you're going to consider something an RPG just because it shares a few common elements, then there's almost no limit to what you can list as an RPG.


The whole question for the all subjective tribe is to know whether or not they can live up to their standards. I cant answer that question for them, just observe if their action agree with their words. So far, not the case.

My position not being that RPG genre is all subjective, that is not possible to tell what a RPG is, I am certain not on the same wagon as the all subjective tribe. And indeed, I can unarbitrarily exclude games from the list.

[ChienAboyeur]

I suppose I have a narrower definition of RPG, because i'd not include many of those game on your list.

To my mind, an RPG:
-Allows the creation and use of many types of characters. Pre rolled characters, such as in Half-Life, invalidates that game as an RPG.
-Provides character growth during the game, in such a way that the player chooses the growth path of the character.
-Provides different ways to complete the game.
-Provides multiple activities not necessarily related to the main quest.
- Choices and consequences, with the ability to change the flow of the game.
-Replayability: Depending on the type of character the player uses, different paths, quests, and outcomes will be available.

And, increasingly, the ability to play the game in a meaningful way WITHOUT touching the main quest. Bethesda games are famous for this.

You just list some elements that are deemed to be RPG elements. As shown multiple times on this site, the end is known.

As other genres evolve out on their own, they will include those elements, getting you to include those games as RPG genre needs to be sustained.

The first point is totally absurd. Pre-rolled or self rolled characters do not exclude or guarantee role playing games. Tournaments were practised on pre-rolled characters for the main cause it makes assessment of the RP performance easier (because that is what a tournament is about)

The other elements might be included in other genres to satisfy requirements internal to this genre. ISS Pro (or FIFA x) has already many (if not all) of your elements. You should list them as RPG by your own criteria.

[JDR13]

Not what I wrote.

That's great, except no one was quoting you, and no one gives a shit what you wrote.

[txa1265]

Doom is limited? Maybe by today's standards, but that game blew people's minds in 1993. :)

Oh, absolutely agree - great gameplay and level design that holds up when played using one of the newer front-ends with high-res packs. But to call any (however limited) action-RPG 'less of a RPG than Doom' is seriously laughable.

The old 'what makes a RPG' thing can go in circles, with some claiming that Gothic isn't one since you can't create your own character, and others willing to included Plants vs. Zombies since there is clear progression over the game.

I'm pretty forgiving in terms of what is/is not a RPG, but in general I think that a developer/publisher has a core genre target 99% of the time, so why not go with that? Of course, then we get Bioware calling Modern Warfare a RPG to justify their braindead moves with Dragon Age and Mass Effect ...

[ChienAboyeur]

That's great, except no one was quoting you, and no one gives a shit what you wrote.

Quoted or unquoted, it does not change it is not what I wrote. Never called for a misquotation by telling not what I wrote.

And primarly, it changes nothing for the quote I made

If you're going to consider something an RPG just because it shares a few common elements, then there's almost no limit to what you can list as an RPG.

The all subjective tribe must come to terms that all subjective has one consequence, any game can be RPG. Or explain how not.

[ChienAboyeur]

The old 'what makes a RPG' thing can go in circles, with some claiming that Gothic isn't one since you can't create your own character, and others willing to included Plants vs. Zombies since there is clear progression over the game.



The question is flawed. So the risk is high to get flawed answers.

The very idea of RPG elements that could exclusively define the RPG genre is baseless. Many ways to achieve a result and a successful way to achieve is successful.

No matter the genre, anytime there is a demand to represent differences among NPCs/PCs, a scale is welcome and a known way to achieve success. Anytime there is a demand for including the effects of experience, points distribution is welcome and a known way to achieve success.

No recipe to RPG and even for recipes, it might boil down to only one or two required elements. After that, the rest is open.

So yes, the discussion can go endlessly. And it is proper to discussions that are designed to go endlessly. So is the discussion on what makes a RPG.

[skavenhorde]

Quoted or unquoted, it does not change it is not what I wrote. Never called for a misquotation by telling not what I wrote.

And primarly, it changes nothing for the quote I made

WHAT QUOTE? JDR didn't quote you. You just popped in and said that's not what you said.

Let me try to understand this: You quoted JDR telling him that's not what you said, however he was not talking to you, so why quote him telling him you didn't say that when he wasn't even talking to you directly?......oh great now I have a headache. I'm done. Maybe stay away from JDR for the time being. He bites ;)

[HiddenX]

A result of a very loooooong discussion about crpg-elements at rpgdot and rpgwatch is the so called crpg-meter:


CRPG-Meter for Drakensang (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5057&page=4)

CRPG-Meter for The Witcher (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3190)

CRPG-Meter for Geneforge 4 (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1390)

CRPG-Meter for Gothic 3 (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10751#post10751)

It is far from perfect, but you can measure the crpg-ingredients of a given game well.

[crpgnut]

I know that things I would rate very high as needed elements in a crpg, others wouldn't care nearly as much about. For me:

1. Rewarding exploration-This can be a physical reward, such as finding a special treasure or hidden area. It can also be an xp reward. If you find the hidden button and click on it, you are awarded 50 points towards leveling. Finally, it can be an achievement type of award. I enjoyed clearing every ounce of black on Morrowind and Oblivion's maps.

2. Character building-This is where the stats/numbers fun comes striding to the fore. I love manipulating skill, attribute, perk, weapons and armor numbers. Even paper doll dressing is fun, especially if the results are graphical along with the statistical. Choosing my own race, class, and name are important to me. I don't want to be a nameless hero or some dude with an already established background. I can live with it, but I prefer games where "I" get to roleplay, not where the developer got to roleplay.

3. A great variety of treasure. I like messing with loot. I like selling it, for as much as I can get, and keeping the choicest pieces for myself. Again, a nice graphical representation is appreciated. The 3d view of treasure in Skyrim is going to be a great pleasure for me.

Other things such as story, companions, pets, factions, etc. aren't as important. Games that have great stories, good companions, political factions, but are missing my vital 3, will always have less appeal to me. The Witcher 1/2, Gothics, Planescape Torment, are all good games to many, but I found them to all be missing part of what makes a crpg great for me.

[Dark Phoenix]

A result of a very loooooong discussion about crpg-elements at rpgdot and rpgwatch is the so called crpg-meter:


CRPG-Meter for Drakensang (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5057&page=4)

CRPG-Meter for The Witcher (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3190)

CRPG-Meter for Geneforge 4 (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1390)

CRPG-Meter for Gothic 3 (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10751#post10751)

It is far from perfect, but you can measure the crpg-ingredients of a given game well.

Interesting. I'll check that out Thanks.

Not modern, not graphically first person but I would consider Text Adventure Games like Zork to be RPG's. I own all of the Infocom games and still play them. Love Them. I tell ya, in my book your not a gamer if you can't cut your teeth on Zork or other Infocom games.

Er.. that being said.. I wonder how may folks actually played The Original RPG - Dungeons and Dragons. I still long for a good D&D computer game that has all of the playability of D&D with the modern visual style of first person dungeon crawling.

[Pessimeister]

I don't think Zork counts as an RPG to be honest. There's no stat driven character development for instance. It belongs more truly in the interactive fiction genre. But that being said, I loved the ol' Infocom games and still have some originals for my C64.

There are quite a few old timers on these boards who have played alot of the old D&D games. Speaking of such games, Descent to Undermountain (1998) belongs on your list. Whilst it's not a great game by any means (I only played as far as the third level) it's first person and AD&D.

[ChienAboyeur]

WHAT QUOTE? JDR didn't quote you. You just popped in and said that's not what you said.

Let me try to understand this: You quoted JDR telling him that's not what you said, however he was not talking to you, so why quote him telling him you didn't say that when he wasn't even talking to you directly?……oh great now I have a headache. I'm done. Maybe stay away from JDR for the time being. He bites ;)

Because people who are for the all subjective approach have the answer to their own behaviour.

I dont quote an individual but rather sample a line of thought. The question is worth for anyone (and they are numerous on this site) holding the view that RPG is all subjective. And the question stands: how does it come that such behaviour (as sampled by the quote) is exhibited?

Everyone with the same line of thought can answer. So far, no answer save dilatory tactics through quotations.

It would be interesting to know why people who are in the all subjective trend provide lists of game supposed to be RPGs. By their own line of thought, those lists can only be personal and unworthy to share. And it would be interesting to know why people holding that all subjective RPG type come and argue on whether or not the game fits in the list as it makes no sense by their line of thought.

[ChienAboyeur]

It is far from perfect, but you can measure the crpg-ingredients of a given game well.

A flawed approach is likely to give flawed answers. But it can maintain endless discussion as it does not allow to achieve conclusions. Suitable for the Internet.

[skavenhorde]

Because people who are for the all subjective approach have the answer to their own behaviour.

I dont quote an individual but rather sample a line of thought. The question is worth for anyone (and they are numerous on this site) holding the view that RPG is all subjective. And the question stands: how does it come that such behaviour (as sampled by the quote) is exhibited?

Everyone with the same line of thought can answer. So far, no answer save dilatory tactics through quotations.

It would be interesting to know why people who are in the all subjective trend provide lists of game supposed to be RPGs. By their own line of thought, those lists can only be personal and unworthy to share. And it would be interesting to know why people holding that all subjective RPG type come and argue on whether or not the game fits in the list as it makes no sense by their line of thought.

Ummmm, yeaaaaa…….. okkkk. Just a little helpful advice. Don't flat out tell someone that "I didn't say that" if that person is not directly responding to you. It's a little weird.

As for responding to a train of thought, well of course. That's what these threads are all about. Just don't make it seem like he was talking to you directly before. Hope that helps.

[ChienAboyeur]

I dont quote posters as persons, I quote the posts. I dont single out nothing other than words.
I pick up lines of thought. Nothing weird in that. Actually the norm when ideas are discussed.

[Gregz]

Strict FP RPGs I didn't see mentioned yet:

Bard's Tale (absolute classic, a must play, _extremely_ challenging without maps or clues)
Bard's Tale 2 & 3
Dragon Wars
Dungeon Master (another classic)
Dungeon Master 2

[DeepO]

Strict FP RPGs I didn't see mentioned yet:

Bard's Tale (absolute classic, a must play, _extremely_ challenging without maps or clues)
Bard's Tale 2 & 3
Dragon Wars
Dungeon Master (another classic)
Dungeon Master 2
The OP asked for "modern" FPRPGs, which is probably why these haven´t been mentioned, though what constitutes modern is of course disputable, har har.
Personally I consider the first modern FPRPG to be Ultima Underworld.

Also, you list Dungeon Master and Dungeon Master 2, but omit Chaos Strikes Back!? What is this.
(:))

[Dark Phoenix]

Yeah modern RPG's. The thing with me about older games is I can't get into them anymore.. played a lot of them years ago. It's not that those answers are not good, just not the kind I wanna play, but folks can post em cus they might help someone else.

If there is an older game I wanna play like System Shock 2, I look for fan made texture mods and graphical enhancements to make the game more modern. You might be surprised how much of this kind of thing is around for older games.

I have been playing the Nehrim mod for the past few days and really like it. TC's rock.

[Dark Phoenix]

I'm picking up Might & Magic IX (9). I took a look at all the others ( previous titles and the Hero's series) and I wont play anything you need to use your mouse cursor to move with. At least this way I'll get to see what all the fuss is about over these games.

[Sir Markus]

I'm picking up Might & Magic IX (9). I took a look at all the others ( previous titles and the Hero's series) and I wont play anything you need to use your mouse cursor to move with. At least this way I'll get to see what all the fuss is about over these games.

Run, don't walk from Might and Magic 9. Play MM VI, VII or even VIII again. Or better yet, pickup Wizardry 8 and call it day. I'm VERY stubborn about finishing games I've started, and I've tried three playthroughs of MM9, and gave up out of frustration all three times.

[darkling]

I'm picking up Might & Magic IX (9). I took a look at all the others ( previous titles and the Hero's series) and I wont play anything you need to use your mouse cursor to move with. At least this way I'll get to see what all the fuss is about over these games.

You don't need to use the mouse to move in any Might and Magic game. Modern mouselook was even implemented for 6-8 in recent fan patches. Playing M&M 9 to get a feel for the M&M's is like playing Ultima 9 to get a sense of the Ultima series. Do not do this.

[Dark Phoenix]

darkling, Perhaps it was the videos I looked at that gave me the impression they were controlled by the mouse. I wouldn't know about the modern mouselook in 6-8 unless someone told me about it. You did and I thank you for that.. I'll take another look at them. Does telp.org have these mouselook patches built into to their patches?

Sir Markus, I understand 9 had tons of bugs but most of the game stopping ones were fixed with fan patch 1.3a. Perhaps that may solve your problem. That's what I plan to install. Look here: http://telp.org/ <- they have patches for 6,7,8 & 9

6 on I may be able to play but I don't think I could abide graphics worse than these. On the other hand ( shameless plug) GOG is an awesome place for older games and they have 2 MM titles, 7 and 8 I think.

[darkling]

Oh my, those telp patches are really old!

Here's a link: http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10622

This post on Celestial Heavens has links to the three patches for M&M 6-8, near the bottom of the post. This "GrayFace" fellow has been posting these patches for a while now, I take them for granted. But yeah, even before, the games used a really awkward keyboard movement system.

Also, I always thought Xeen was graphically superior to the 6-8 games. Well-drawn pixel art totally beats the blocky hideous sprites and low polygon buildings of the late 90's games. I was one of the folks who really didn't get into 3D at first, it was always so ugly compared to the fantastic 2D art of the games that came out before. It was so bizarre in the late 90's seeing people rant and rave about the graphics of Final Fantasy 7 (a game released at the height of ugly 3D) and then talk about the dated ugly 2D art of Baldur's Gate (a game released a year later with fantastic 2D art). But to each their own, I guess. D: