Handbooks - Quality declining ? [Archive]

Alrik Fassbauer

March 2nd, 2007, 14:35

Hello, everyone.

I just decided to open a new thread.

I think it began on page 7 or 8 of what are you reading ? (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150) where the discussion on handbooks began.

I think I can relatively safely say that handbooks were better in "ye olde days", than they are today. Also, they are probably thinner, because thick boocks wouldn't fit into a DVD case.

Exceptions are jewel-cases and packages like the one of Age of Wonders : Shadow Magic, where both DVD case and handbook fit into a single kind of extended box.

What have handbooks actually to do with the "casual gamer", the newly-discovered cash-cow the industry favours ? Do both publishers & developers believe that they wouldn't want/need any thick handbook, maybe even with the argument "it costs time" and "everything should be intuitively useable" ?

Will we end up one day with no handbooks at all, only PDFs ? And if it is only in PDF format - why bother making handbooks at all ? Online-help, maybe ? (With "on-line" I don't necessarily mean "internet" but also "in-game".)

Alrik

txa1265

March 2nd, 2007, 15:13

I agree - when you look at the 'old' RPG manuals, even as recent NWN, you see some serious technical writing effort was put into it by actual professionals. Compare it to KotOR - what was it, 48 pages or something - and you see where it is going.

The KotOR manual provides useful information, but nothing to really help you play the game from a strategic standpoint the way that NWN did. I've recounted my NWN RPG renaissance multiple times, but suffice it to say that I read and re-read to get myself up to speed on the details of the D&D systems at work. When I got KotOR I sped through the manual once, and only went back to check the level-ups for various non-Jedi characters to figure where to stop leveling.

I can definitely see manuals going all-PDF, with perhaps a quick-start pack-in. For the Mac versions of the Fallout and BG series, that is all you got in the DVD case.

narpet

March 2nd, 2007, 15:34

The tendency is definitely moving toward more streamlined manuals, and pdf manuals... but to me that is a sad thing. Being a collector, it has always been a bonus to open a game and get a well-written, comprehensive manual. Some new games still provide that luxury to gamers, but it is quickly falling to the wayside.

I have so many great manuals, some even spiral bound that are just amazing: Fallout, Baldur's Gate I and II, Icewind Dale II (can't remember about Icewind Dale I and I'm at work now so I can't check), and more.

And even the ones from the old days that weren't spiral bound were at least very beefy and included everything you would want to know about the game, even history, NPC, Magic, Equipment, and Monster information.

Some games would come with supplemental items like fake newspapers with articles about the game world, journals, mapping paper, etc. What we get in "collector's editions" now used to come standard in many CRPGs of the 80's and early 90's.

So I miss the days of big box packaging with over the top manuals and extras, but there's nothing that can be done about it. But I have to admit that it does change the experience for me.

I love technology and I'm a big proponent of change for the better, and I realize that we save trees and therefore wildlife when we can cut down on the paper products used in game distribution (boxes, manuals, etc), but I don't have to like it.

As a matter of fact I've decided that if the state of PC gaming ever gets to the point (in my lifetime) where you can only get games by downloading them and there is no such thing as a boxed copy with a manual (and extras like those offered in collector's editions), that will be the day I stop buying games. I'm sure there will be a couple every year that I just must have, but my buying habits will change dramatically. I have enough old games on my shelf to last me until I'm about 150 years old, so I won't worry about it if that time comes... I'll just dust off old boxes and enjoy the contents while enjoying the games.

magerette

March 2nd, 2007, 15:58

Alrik Fassbauer

March 2nd, 2007, 16:11

What we get in "collector's editions" now used to come standard in many CRPGs of the 80's and early 90's.

So it's just another way of making money.

In 2004 I think, an editor of the gaming mag "Gee" complained that all those goodies the editors received then were in older days meant to be for the masses (I remember "postcards by Lara Croft" being sent to the editors, with her telling from the latest adventures).

He also had the opinion that these goodies could be a strong buying point.

In this respect, I agree : Such goodies are in my opinion also strong reasons to buy a game - but on the other hand the industry goes exactly the other way round : They put games into cheap DVD cases with small manuals and often simply PDFs. With that, there is no real difference between an illegally copied game and an legally bought game anymore !

Alrik Fassbauer

March 2nd, 2007, 16:13

so no real personality or song information except in fine print in a tiny pamphlet if you're lucky. The whole concept of the album cover as a statement is pretty much gone, because what impact does a 4" x 6" image really make.

Yes, that's right.

I once bought kind of an "special edition" of Fleetwood Mac's last album - it really looked like a tiny photo-album ! I was really impressed.

I believe that he industry tries to exploit us : They create "premium content" with what had been normal 10-20 years ago.

txa1265

March 2nd, 2007, 16:14

I agree narpet. It reminds me of the change from record albums to cds--yes, you have a higher quality, more durable medium for your tunes, but no album covers--so no real personality or song information except in fine print in a tiny pamphlet if you're lucky. The whole concept of the album cover as a statement is pretty much gone, because what impact does a 4" x 6" image really make.

Not to take the tangent too far, but I was discussing Miles Davis masterpiece Bitches Brew on another site and your remark reminds me of the album art for that ...
http://www.matiklarweinart.com/images/gallery/bitches-brew-1970.jpg

And inside there was a massive amount of text - a whole set of liner notes that really provided some added context for the massive project.

That 'extra stuff' was also what I talked about in the 'now reading' thread when referring to stuff like Dark Forces, Jedi Knight and Return to Castle Wolfenstein. Those provided you with more than just how to play the game, they got you into the world as the developers saw it.

narpet

March 2nd, 2007, 16:17

In this respect, I agree : Such goodies are in my opinion also strong reasons to buy a game - but on the other hand the industry goes exactly the other way round : They put games into cheap DVD cases with small manuals and often simply PDFs. With that, there is no real difference between an illegally copied game and an legally bought game anymore !

That's a good point, and you're right. There is definitely less incentive to buy a game legally when it comes with nothing extra for the consumer to be excited about. I'm against piracy, but I can see it being easier for someone to consider getting an illegal copy when they know that their money won't buy them anything extra.

txa1265

March 2nd, 2007, 16:26

I can see it being easier for someone to consider getting an illegal copy when they know that their money won't buy them anything extra.

I can't see that at *all* ... but that is a subject for a different day and thread ;)

xSamhainx

March 2nd, 2007, 16:46

Yep, looking back at the works of art like the Vault Dweller's Guide, they just dont make em like that anymore. Along with the actual information, to have a theme just makes the whole package so much more. It makes it something worth collecting, not just a guide. There are some series like Age of Empires that have kept large, well laid-out, artful manuals, but they are indeed becoming a rarity.

Nowadays I just pray that there is a printed manual, and it actually has the important info!

Dez

March 2nd, 2007, 18:07

I hate pdf-manuals. Its fine if its a budget release, but for a full priced game i want my manual on paper.

Well writen manual is always a pleasure and it really increases the enjoyament factor. This thread made me to find those good old manuals from the closet. It really struck me that most of those manuals were unique. they did not only include basic tutorial for the game, they also had backstories, character information and lots of other "unimportant stuff".

One of my favorites is Tribes 1 manual. for a shooter game its more than enough! Detailed starsiege history timeline, tribes information&backstories, weapons in detail, artwork size of a whole page etc...,

hat 'extra stuff' was also what I talked about in the 'now reading' thread when referring to stuff like Dark Forces, Jedi Knight and Return to Castle Wolfenstein. Those provided you with more than just how to play the game, they got you into the world as the developers saw it.

I totally agree. I just read the manual again. Great thought was put in it. Most of the Lucas arts games had great manuals. Its shame that they also have gone with the trend.

Ionstormsucks

March 2nd, 2007, 20:29

Well, I too think that manuals are not as good as in the old days (which is a sad thing really), but then again you have to admit that at least pc games didn't increase much in price over the last few years which is more than just astonishing. Although the price of game never played much of a role for me personally, I had to realize that it does for many people, especially younger gamers.
Compared to digital distribution, print distribution is a rather expensive way to publish something, so...

magerette

March 2nd, 2007, 20:36

That's true about the price of games, ionstormsucks. I still put my hand over my heart and start hyperventilating when I see a game with a $55. price sticker, yet ten years ago I routinely bought games that cost between $40. and $50. I don't think I'd mind shelling out a little extra cash, tho, for a nice manual with print large enough to be read by the naked eye.
Maybe they could package and sell 'special edition' type manuals separately?

@tx1265
That Bitche's Brew album was a classic, in all ways. Thanks for the trip down memory lane. :)

Alrik Fassbauer

March 2nd, 2007, 22:35

Looks really like an work of art. Does it exist for use as a background wallpaper picture ?
I think I should try finding this album on a flea market somewhere, just for the picture ...

If you stumble upon the inlay art of Genesis "Nursery Cryme", then you might have a similar thing, very detailed indside art with the somgstexts ... I don't even own that vinyl album, just saw it somewhere ... I think I should try getting it, too ...

Corwin

March 3rd, 2007, 00:08

Now I know why you are all into fantasy!! :) Let's be real here; WE read and love paper manuals, but the VAST majority don't. Heck, some of them probably couldn't read the thing if they wanted to. Most 'gamers' just want to load up the game and start killing things!! We oldies, like to 'appreciate' every nuance intended by the developers.
Also, there is now very little space apportioned in retail gaming outlets for PC games. Can you seriously imagine them allowing valuable shelf space for ONE of those large old boxes?? Remember M&M5 World of Xeen!!!!! I love to curl up and read manuals from cover to cover, but I'm a dying breed. I still have all my old LP's, even though I also have most of them on CD as well, but the younger generation doesn't seem to care!!

Moriendor

March 3rd, 2007, 00:21

The last game that pissed me off in this regard was NWN 2. I bought the Chaotic Evil Collector's Edition which -OK- does have a printed manual but it turned out to be a stripped down version of the US version's manual which has an extensive section on 3rd edition D&D rules, (prestige) class requirements etc etc etc - The printed Euro manual in the CE does not have that.

Instead they included the full (US version) manual as a PDF on the DVD. To add insult to injury, that manual had some compatibility issues with Adobe Reader (or maybe it is a general Adobe Reader 8 issue, I don't know).
What happened though is that when you scrolled up and down a few times, your system memory started filling up like mad up to the point where the computer would run out of physical memory and Adobe Reader would crash'n'exit).
Well, luckily there is an alternative PDF reader in Foxit Reader which does not have this memory problem with the NWN 2 PDF (it still uses crazy amounts of RAM but at least it doesn't crash). So I finally did get to the info in the PDF but what an annoyance until it finally worked out...

That was pretty lame of Atari. If you pay the premium price for a CE then they should include the full manual at the very least.

Cormac

March 3rd, 2007, 01:46

Can you seriously imagine them allowing valuable shelf space for ONE of those large old boxes?? Remember M&M5 World of Xeen!!!!!

Man, those were huge boxes.
Manuals had one other use, though, copy protection. But that method was less annoying by a long shot than what we have now, however (well, unless you lost your manual).

Jaz

March 3rd, 2007, 12:11

I still have all my old LP's, even though I also have most of them on CD as well, but the younger generation doesn't seem to care!!I hated LPs, even at the time when there was no other medium (okay, so there were big and smaller audio tapes). The first thing i did after buying a record: record it on tape and put the record in the closet. Man, I was glad when they invented CDs...

My games are on a shelf above my head here in my home office, but without boxes: I cut up all boxes that were bigger than a DVD case, keeping the front only to put it in a hanging file folder along with the manual. There was only one big box I kept for nearly ten years: the one containing 'Towers of darkness'. But I cut that one up last year when I ran out of storage space.

Corwin

March 3rd, 2007, 12:19

I have a massive collection of old empty boxes!! :)

aries100

March 3rd, 2007, 13:03

I concur & agree with all these statements beeing made about players handbooks and manuals.

In the olde golden days, even the manuals and handbooks were better.

I have jost gotten a hold of my manual for BG2, and I simply like (nay, love) to feel
the small and to touch the binding and to turn the pages as well. Today, if you buy an ordinary game, you will get a somewhat thin manual (handbook) which really hasn't any usefull information at all. (imo). But if you buy the collector's or limited edition of the game, you will get a full player handbook, a decent manual, a map
and some other stuff. Back in the olden days you would get a map + some extras even without the need to order the Limited or the Collector's Edition.

And corwin --- be glad that you have kept all of your old records...
(as I have).

The rumour isn that they are making a comeback --- sometime.
[I base this on the popularity of the limited edition of the Danish version on LP records - of the Leonard Cohen's songs...].

I also like to read manuals, and in fact have sometimes learnt new things from reading these...

Jaz

March 3rd, 2007, 15:04

I still have all my records, too, but I know I'll never thouch them again - I digitized those which were never released on CD, and that was that. I really hated it how these things jumped lines from time to time. It made me paranoid.
One of my records had an infinite track on it, something the corresponding CD doesn't have, of course... but in my eyes, making an infinite track finite was the lesser evil ;). So far, I had only one line-jumping CD out of ~1500, but many records that came with scratches, straight from the store...

KasperFauerby

March 3rd, 2007, 17:50

"There is definitely less incentive to buy a game legally when it comes with nothing extra for the consumer to be excited about."

Hmm.. shouldn't the *game* itself be the thing you're most concerned about getting? I mean, I also enjoy the old Ultima packages with cloth maps, coins etc - but I don't really have any real use for the stuff.. it's just something I have sitting on my shelf in the old boxes. Saying that you don't want to pay for a game unless it comes with some piece of plastic junk seems a bit silly to me, sorry!

Personally, by habit, I always try to get the collectors edition of the games that I like - but lately I've realized that I'm really just tossing money out the window! The game itself is always the same, and that's really the most important thing for me.

xSamhainx

March 3rd, 2007, 19:29

I can see how some people would take that attitude about it.
Pissed off about not getting any frills on full priced, totally hyped games, so they just go download. I get ticked off myself when I open a full-size game box, and all I get a mere sliver of documentation and the disk(s) are in some lame cardboard or even a blank paper sleeve. Here I may be paying $50+ for something, and I have to make my own damn jewel case so it can sit in my cd rack? Waiting for the day they just slap a label on a CD-RW, or start scrawling the title on the disk with a sharpie. Part of a fine meal is it's presentation, and I remember with fondness the days when part of a game was it's presentation as well.

So yeah, I can see why someone would possibly use that as one of many reasons to justify their game piracy. It's not me tho, I would just rather have the legal and original full product, on disk, as provided by who made it. Aside from any type of LG beliefs that I may hold regarding the subject of piracy, it's also more convenient and hassle-free as far as I'm concerned. I have enough trouble getting things running with the legit versions of some games, the last thing I want to be doing is messing with hacked versions, cd keys, malware and what not.

Wulf

March 4th, 2007, 11:04

I always pay cash at the check-out for my games...that's the 'full retail' package (to support the industry)...but i do not read any manuals or paraphernalia, never have done, never will do, i vindictively refuse to!
I disable in-game tutors and such like. After installing i use my own self intuition to find as much in-game detail as possible...to delve into the dark unknown is the very essence of the game enjoyment.....so like KasperFauerby says its the *game* itself which is all i care about.

Oh, and i almost forgot....

I have a massive vinyl album collection. Analogue play-back equipment is far superior to any digital methods where the human ear is concerned....this is has been proven conclusively in blind testing.
Collectors vinyl has always maintained its credibility even throughout the cold years (when hyped cd dominance prevailed and retail outlets began to sell cd music only)
For several years now there has been an upsurge in demand for vinyl. Even some of those very same outlets are stocking vinyl again....."long live vinyl" :p

JDR13

March 4th, 2007, 11:15

There was only one big box I kept for nearly ten years: the one containing 'Towers of darkness'. But I cut that one up last year when I ran out of storage space.

"Towers of Darkness", is that the Heretic\Hexen collection you're refering to?

I had that also, along with the Doom collection, until just recently.
Very cool box, but I finally threw it away, it was just taking up too much space.

Corwin

March 4th, 2007, 12:02

Wulf, admit it, you just can't READ!! :biggrin:

Jaz

March 4th, 2007, 12:18

"Towers of Darkness", is that the Heretic\Hexen collection you're refering to?

I had that also, along with the Doom collection, until just recently.
Very cool box, but I finally threw it away, it was just taking up too much space.
Yep, that's it. I also own all published Dooms with the exception of the N64 one (though I played it at a friend's placce), but not in a big box.

Wulf

March 4th, 2007, 15:03

Re: [Wulf, admit it, you just can't READ!! ] ...Corwin, you found me out!
(Cm will hear of this - after all, she taught me to spell 'cornor') ! ! :D

I reckon all decent players could get through rpg type games without the manual...or even a map....i don't know if there is such a game that cannot be properly completed without the need of those items.?

aries100

March 4th, 2007, 16:15

I can certainly understand why vinyl is making a comeback. I have the same artist both on vinyl on a cd. And on the vinyl (or the record) the artist's voice is much
darker and deeper, the tone of the music is much softer compared to all of these things on the cd. The vinyl record seems to have more if a genuine feel to it.

Just like the olden rpgs of the old days seem to have more of a real rpg feel to them, but then they did also come with player's handbooks and manuals ;)

xSamhainx

March 4th, 2007, 20:17

I have a pretty good stack of vinyls, but these days the choicest ones are only used for decoration. They make a great border along the top of the walls.

Hey I'm a single guy ok, we're all about tacky decoration!

Now that I think about it, I should have at least cut out the front cover of every pc game I ever bought. I always felt bad throwing away an awesome box. Between the albums and the pc game box covers, you could do some great game room interior decorating.

Corwin

March 5th, 2007, 00:48

With that attitude my friend, you're likely to remain single!! :biggrin: Don't you know that the first thing a female wants to do, is re-decorate!! :)

Alrik Fassbauer

March 5th, 2007, 13:15

Alrik Fassbauer

March 5th, 2007, 13:18

I have a massive collection of old empty boxes!! :)

Me too ! :)

My dream ist to scan them all and put them online in kind of an museum ! :)

Moriendor

March 5th, 2007, 19:18

Didn't they do the same with Baldur's Gate here in Germany ?

I don't remember what kind of manual the German BG had but I wouldn't be surprised if the manual sucked since the German version of BG on a whole got raped left, right and center. Remember the Saxon accent of some characters? Seriously, the German version of BG would have deserved to be nominated for comedy of the year awards, it was that retarded :biggrin: .

txa1265

March 26th, 2007, 14:33

It is interesting, I got Spectrobes DS for review last week, and noticed as I removed the shrinkwrap that there was also one of those 'tape circles' on the right side of the case. This surprised me, but after I removed it I saw why - the game case could barely remain closed! Sure, there is a standard 'Nintendo Safety' pack-in, as well as a set of 'game cards', but the main thing was the 80 page manual! The manual is excellent - loads of information, little hints and asides, all put into the context of the actual game. The game itself is sort of a Pokemon-ish redux so far, but the manual has me completely enamored ... heck, I think I'd rather review the manual and just give the game to my kids!

Pladio

April 3rd, 2007, 00:23

I know this is a RPG forum, but I used to play a lot of strategy games and Caesar III had a 200+ pages manual/handbook.
I still believe that's how manuals are supposed to be and all the newer games with 50- pages are just a waste of time.
I actually don't mind the manual being on PDF, reading on the PC or in a book is the same for. I do prefer books than PDF, but PDF is ok for me.

All the Gothic manuals were jokes, very good April's fool jokes.
Masters of Orion 3 has a great manual, I preferred the manual over the game.
These are my 2 cents on game manuals.

Wulf

April 3rd, 2007, 11:17

That's right Pladio, manuals in pdf format are o.k, an easy on-screen convenience, then there's html format documentation. Even gothic-1 had an .htm help file on the disk yet many players complained of "no book".....it just that they expected a manual as "the" default method.

The Gothic games (and others) have self-intuitive content that have to be searched for and interpreted by the player and as such would be conceptually wrong to have a book giving gameplay details, thats what the games were about....where our own learning curve came into play.

I hate manuals that give away details of gameplay or methodology, those are the bits i want to find out as a challenge for myself as i progress, the very reason i get the games in the first place.

Pladio

April 3rd, 2007, 12:02

But don't you think a manual should be there:
1. in case you do need (for you it would moslty be to see if you did manage to find everything out by yourself).
Or
2.for people who like reading the manuals or need them.
?

Wulf

April 3rd, 2007, 13:02

Of course, manuals are for those that need or like them or for nostalgia reasons but so are forums.

Consider two situations of "hand-holding" methods for learners or newbies.

1. Where a strategy guide or manual is used to find solutions to help complete a game where otherwise they are lost.

2. Where "walk-through" type forum posters (progressively asking for help) until they can complete a game.

Forum casual browsers without any interactivity can also find info's on game parts where they are stuck. As for me, i take a game as a personal challenge, if after trying my hardest to complete (depending on immersive factor) i then put the game away, maybe to try some other time.....but never wishing to find solutions by another means than playing on face value.

Alrik Fassbauer

April 3rd, 2007, 13:40

I regard handbooks in strategy games as an essential. But well, this is an RPG forum anyway. ;)

What I don't really remember are handbooks in ring-binding or how it's called. I don't remember a single one here.

Maybe that's a German thing or I play the wrong games ... ;)

What always astonishes me, by the way, is the fact that games usuall don't have any in-game help at all. Okay, from apps we are used to this, but games ... ?

There often isn't even help in the main menu (tutorials not counted).

The only one with a really developed help engine is TOEE. I measure every game against it.

Pladio

April 4th, 2007, 01:58

@Wulf : You're right. I frequented forums a lot when I needed some help when I got stuck or with some bugs (GII-Addon bug with Lares leading me to the Mages)
However, you can keep handbooks, but some forums dissapear, either because of unpopularity or no time (or money) by the webmaster. A lot of older RPGs and other games have lost their forums and it's quite hard to find some information for some of those games.

I'm for every kind of help included. I prefer it to be included. If people are like you and don't like the manuals or help guides, then they (along with you) can just put them aside. Others might want to read them when stuck or for some tips. Then others can also read the whole manual if they want to.
If there isn't a manual then the people don't have that choice, which is quite important for me.

@Alrik : I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Civilization (at least II and III) have almost complete in-game manuals with everything in it. I don't think I ever managed to read everything in those help pages. If you were talking about RPG in-game help then you might be right though.

I haven't seen any ring handbooks either. I do have some kind of magazine handbook for Civ II.
Never got a cloth map either :( . Too young for those I guess.

Wulf

April 5th, 2007, 18:46

You never had a cloth map Pladio?.. it was quite normal for gamers to open the box and say "not another map!" :wow:

the ultima's were well known for them, take a look at what you missed....

http://www.idsa.net/ultima/

Pladio

April 6th, 2007, 02:44

Wow...... (NOT World of Warcraft!)
Those are a great deal of maps ! IS that your room ?!?
The only real maps I got were the ones from M&M7 and RTW, but both weren't cloth maps.

Why don't they make them anymore? The cloth maps, I mean ?

Corwin

April 6th, 2007, 04:09

They are fairly expensive to make I would assume, and difficult to fit inside a standard DVD box!!

Alrik Fassbauer

April 6th, 2007, 16:50

Cost reduction. More income. Longer programming time.

narpet

April 6th, 2007, 17:14

Why don't they make them anymore? The cloth maps, I mean ?

They still do... though it's rare. NWN2 Limited Edition comes with a small cloth map.

Gothic 3 Collector's Edition (I ordered it from Sweden) has a very nice, big cloth map.

Pladio

April 7th, 2007, 03:56

I didn't know that. Can you post a pic ?

narpet

April 7th, 2007, 07:58

I didn't know that. Can you post a pic ?

Here you go...

One of the Gothic 3 map and one of the NWN2 map... I hope the link works...

Maps (http://www.flipdrive.com/photoalbum.php?user_id=144961&album_id=2&code=872c4c3000323c711a72461db06aa8e5)

EDIT: Please note that in the two pics the maps probably look the same size, but the Gothic 3 map is at least twice the size of the NWN2 map.