What are you reading ?

[JonNik]

I gave up half way through the first Potter book(I very very rarely dont finish a
book) and never looked back.

When I think of good childrens literature my mind really goes to (recent):
Pullman (His Dark Materilas) or Corwin's compatriot Garth Nix (Abhorsen books)
or (The classics): George Mcdonald (The princess and the Goblin), John Masefield
(The box of delights) or Kenneth Graham (Wind in the willows).

To each his own I guess.

Now Reading: The Children of Hurin . Great Tolkien Fix. Reminds me that LOTR
is up for a reread (been a few years). Might even buy myself one of those fancy
anniversary editions to replace my battered Greek translation or Single volume
english Paperbacks.

[txa1265]

Pullman & Nix are good stuff but are for a much older audience. The Potter books are for kids growing out of the 'Magic Tree House' stories ...

[Dez]

I'm now rereading Mika Waltari's "Sinuhe the egyptian". By saying history comes alive is an huge understatement.. Also it doesn't only offer us a grand story, but it also tells something significant about humanity itself. Egyptian is one of those books which deeply influenced on me when I read it first time many years ago :)

[JonNik]

Pullman & Nix are good stuff but are for a much older audience.

You have a point there. Especially Pullman whose antireligion agenda comes across a bit intense at places and It would be preferable that the reader be
of an age able to comprehend the symbolism used (but its not all that obscure
ofcourse and children are smart these days).

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I was reading through the translations of the 3 or 4 Harry Potter books.
I had to admit that they are creative, this at least.

[Corwin]

Perhaps we should begin a new thread for suggested children's books?

[Prime Junta]

I don't like the distinction. Good children's books make for good reading no matter what your age is.

[Corwin]

Perhaps, but some books while good, are not suitable for children!!

[Alrik Fassbauer]

And vice versa.

My favourite book is still "Frederick" by Leo Leonni. Pure poetry.

[Prime Junta]

Perhaps, but some books while good, are not suitable for children!!

I see your point. Sounds like a good idea for a thread -- list of book suggestions for kids with some idea of the age range in there too. Like so?

Tove Jansson: The Moomin series of books, ages 4 to senile.
Susan Cooper: The Dark is Rising sequence, ages 8 to senile.
Ursula K. Le Guin: The Earthsea trilogy, ages 12 to senile.
Mika Waltari: The Egyptian, ages 14 to senile.

[txa1265]

I see your point. Sounds like a good idea for a thread -- list of book suggestions for kids with some idea of the age range in there too. Like so?

Tove Jansson: The Moomin series of books, ages 4 to senile.
Susan Cooper: The Dark is Rising sequence, ages 8 to senile.
Ursula K. Le Guin: The Earthsea trilogy, ages 12 to senile.
Mika Waltari: The Egyptian, ages 14 to senile.

Some nice suggestions there. There are also books that aren't necessarily award winners but really capture the imagination of a child. I'll save that stufff for the other thread.

[Dez]

The book suggestions for kids..hmmh I don't know what kids read since I used to read lots of different things when I was a kid, but here are some of those...

Tolkien's Lord of the rings and Hobbit are excellent choises. from 8 to senile me thinks :)

Many Jules Verne books. I can't say the age range. you figure it out.

Alexandre Dumas : Three musketeers. this book never felt dry to me. Infact I couldn't stop reading untill the last page. from 12 to senile :).

John Christopher : The Tripods trilogy. I totally enjoyed it when I was ten or so. And I reread it couple of years ago.

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle: The Hound of the Baskervilles..very good reading for youngsters and above. :)

Agatha christie's Murder on the Orient Express is a detective classic, not for the most youngest audience obviously, but I used to read lots of different detective novels when I was younger.. and I still do.

[magerette]

After reading everyone's kid books suggestions, I was thinking how what you read at a young age really impacts and shapes you. In fact, just being a reader is a cornerstone of who you are and who you become.

Not many of the recent books are familiar to me, unfortunately. Classics like Wind in the Willows and Jules Verne were favorites. I mostly grew up on animal books like The Black Stallion and the Flicka books, Robert Louis Stephenson's Kidnapped, Treasure Island, etc(which i still enjoy) and Albert Payson Terhune's dog books(Lad, a Dog). The Nancy Drews and Hardy Boys were fun escapist reading. I think kids today might still enjoy most of these.

Narnia, LeGuinn and Tolkien came when I was quite a bit older.

Nauseating pap like Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farms was all too prevalent, unfortunately. The Secret Garden(Frances Hodgson Burnett) and Heidi (Johanna Spyri) really impressed me as a child, but going back now they are extremely sentimental.

It's really great that kids today have so many imaginative choices.

[Prime Junta]

The Narnia series was like that for me -- I loved them as a kid, but when I re-read them as an adult, the agenda showed through so much that they irritated the hell out of me. Not to mention Susan's fate -- IMO that makes the books unsuitable as unsupervised reading for children. (They're fine, of course, if they're discussed afterwards.)

[Gallifrey]

I read and loved the Narnia books as a kid, and I haven't read them since. I tried reading The Hobbit when I was quite young as well, and couldn't get into it. Then I read it about 6 years ago and loved every moment.

Madeleine L'Engle's A Wrinkle In Time and A Swiftly Tilting Planet are also excellent books for "kids" Kids being 12ish or thereabouts.

[JonNik]

Its funny how all the good childrens books I suggested I have actually read
in a mature age. My first experiences with literature were perhaps predictably
those books considered classic "childrens literature" for my generation (I am
at the doorstep of 30 now).

So Jules Verne it was (bucketloads) and Conan Doyle and Alexander Dumas
and Dickens and even a reduced version of Les miserables among other things*.

Is it not typical that Upon their publication all of these books were concidered
adult material ?

Ursula K. Le Guin: The Earthsea trilogy, ages 12 to senile.


As chance would have it this was my first Fantasy book at the age of 15
(before that I was starting to read some "heavier" stuff like lots of Poe
and slowly discovering Poetry in general). Needless to say I was absolutely
captivated and it remains one of my all time favorites.

A minor note: Though I do agree that a 12 year old child can enjoy these series
and I would not hesitate to give it to one, I consider LeGuin's work (even the Fantasy) more adult oriented. I certainly was able to appreciate it more on later
rereads.

* Lots and lots and lots of Greek mythology plus Homer, being Greek and all.
Untill I got sick of It and started to shun it in favor of Celtic, Norse and other
of the Worlds mythologies from puberty onwards...

[Corwin]

Hey Jazz, as Mod of this forum, could you set up the Children's book thread and move these latest additions over to it, thanks!!

[Prime Junta]

I read and loved the Narnia books as a kid, and I haven't read them since. I tried reading The Hobbit when I was quite young as well, and couldn't get into it. Then I read it about 6 years ago and loved every moment.

Madeleine L'Engle's A Wrinkle In Time and A Swiftly Tilting Planet are also excellent books for "kids" Kids being 12ish or thereabouts.

Hoo boy, I'd forgotten all about those.

Then there was the Black Cauldron series (Lloyd Alexander, IIRC), and who wrote that bit about Half Magic? Was that L'Engle too?

[Corwin]

Dare I mention Charlotte's Web and Stuart Little!!

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Then there was the Black Cauldron series (Lloyd Alexander, IIRC)

Yes, he died in May this year. I've finally aquired the Disney movie of that, and now I'm eager to read the original novels - in English, of course.

There is - by the way - on Wikipedia an interesting remark about the name of Gurgi, which might be - according to that - another form of a name of creatures which eventually became the "Puckel-Men" in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, Like Ghan-buri-Ghan was one of them.

This is what I wrote about it in a different forum :

My plans are to buy the "Taran" books by Lloyd Alexander in the next months, since I've seen the Disney movie "The Black Cauldron" on DVD.
His books are more or less based on Welsh mythology, and I've found an interesting link towards J.R.R. Tolkien :

Wikipedia says that the name of the character of Gurgi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurgi) could be a variant of another name Tolkien used :

The name Gurgi may be a variation on Gruagach (see Púca).

See here : Púca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Púca)
Remember Ghân-buri-Ghân (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghân-buri-Ghân) ? He was one of them - and the statues guarding these roads high above Rohan depict his ancestors, the "Púkel-men". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunharrow

That was an interesting find for me ! To take a glimpse at the sources from which both Lloyd Alexander and J.R.R. Tolkien drew from ! :)

[magerette]

Well, Ive had to abandon my foray into the world of Stephen King. As usual, after a few hundred pages he started getting on my nerves.

I'm still in a kind of summertime Light Reading mode, though so I started a book I picked up at the dollar book store, Where is Joe Merchant? by Jimmy Buffett. It's entertaining, and he has some whacko characters which are fun. I wouldn't call it a literary masterpiece, but it's not bad for what it is. :)

[woges]

Loved The Phantom Tollbooth when I was very young.

[Black Hood]

The Phantom Tollbooth is a lovely book, agreed. I love the illustrations. A book I highly recommend in a similar vein is The Thirteen Clocks by James Thurber.

In non-"young adult" reading:
I just finished reading "The Lies of Locke Lamora" by Scott Lynch and I'm looking forward to the sequel, "Red Seas Under Red Skies." They are fantasy novels about the title character and his band of thieves, the Gentleman Bastards. I quite liked the first one. I read some reviews comparing them to the Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser books, but I don't think that's the best comparison. They have much less of the darkly mysterious and poetic feel of the Lankhmar books, and a lot more cussing and bloodshed. Actually it's more like the Godfather mixed with Lankhmar.

I also recently finished the most recent of the Malazan Empire books, "Reaper's Gale" by Steven Erikson. Another gigantic tome following a ton of characters through various nefarious and confusing events. Hit or miss for sure, but I enjoy his books despite (or because of, perhaps) the sheer mess of plot threads and people. Plus there's the occasional spark of pure weirdness. Finally some stuff got resolved in this one. Or did it? It's hard to say. All I know is some gods blew some stuff up and some soldiers turned into gods, maybe, and some arrogant dragons had the tables turned on them, and there was a lot of fighting and some wise-cracking.

Started reading the second Instrumentalities of the Night book by Glen Cook. I can't get into it, though. It's no Black Company. Way too much discussion of the politics of an imaginary land, not nearly enough fightin' and wizardin'! I'll come back to it when I have some free time.

Just read through the most recently translated Vampire Hunter D novel "Mysterious Journey To the North Sea part II" l. Pure Japanese pulp fiction. I don't know how they feel to read in the original Japanese, but the translations all feel pretty awkward to me. The dialogue is pretty stilted. They're fun to read though, but if I wasn't already a fan don't know what I'd make of them. There's an awful lot of time spent describing just how beautiful D is and how everyone swoons over him - and then how they are awed by the aura of darkness that surrounds him, and yadda de dah, and then some villain with secret powers challenges him, and D barely has to even twitch his sword to defeat them because he's such a stone cold badass, and the strong but beautiful girl heroine du jour secretly loves D, but he's not interested because he's got to carry on with his quest for whatever it is he's looking for, plus he's just too stone cold tough to have time for ladies anyway. They're kind of like horror post-apocalypse-spaghetti-westerns.

I spend a lot of time on my lunch break at work reading parts of various work-in-progress translations of martial arts novels by Jin Yong and others over on wuxiapedia dot com. I recommend The Eagle Shooting Heroes (or the Condor Heroes, or any of the other names it's known by). Also The Proud Smiling Wanderer.

And on a slightly different (though still fantastical) note:
I also finished Kafka On The Shore by Haruki Murakami. I like his books very, very much. The Wind Up Bird Chronicle is a favorite.

[magerette]

Some very interesting titles in there, Black Hood. *scribbles more notes on list of 'to read someday' *

Phantom Tollbooth was great, and I remember giggling with my BGF all over The 13 Clocks. If I remember right, that was the one with the line: "I'll slit you from your guzzle to your zatch!" Thurber was a very funny man. :)

[Black Hood]

Yes, that's the book Magerette - allow me to nitpick for a moment - I believe the exact zone that was being threatened was from the "guggle" to the "zatch." Man, that Duke was cold. Sadly, though I know my copy is probably within arms reach of me, I doubt it would take me less than an hour to find it so I can verify the spelling of the made-up words.

In the young adult vein again:
I just pulled these off the shelf to flip through them quickly again since I needed some reference material - I love John Bellair's first few books, well, mainly "The House with A Clock In Its Walls", "The Figure In The Shadows", and "The Letter, The Witch, and the Ring." Plus they were illustrated by Edward Gorey. Perhaps a tad (or a hell of a lot) frightening for younger kids - I know I was pretty young when I read them, but, well, I was reading a lot of stuff at a young age, which is why my avatar is a scary inquisitor-like figure and I think Black Hood sounds like a good name, if you see what I mean. He wrote a ton of similar books and while they started to feel a bit same-y after a while I think they all have some merit, and again they all have Edward Gorey illustrations, so how can you go wrong? I haven't read the ones finished posthumously by Brad Strickland. John Bellairs died much too young. It's not fair.
John Bellairs also wrote an amazing book called "The Face In the Frost," which is somewhere close to the top of my all-time favorite books. It's about a wizard named Prospero (no, not the one you're thinking of) and another named Roger Bacon (not the one you're thinking of either) and their battle against a dark force, and it's a charming, funny, genuinely terrifying at times work chock full of cleverness. I think I'll read it again, actually, tonight.

[Kayla]

Anyone You Want Me To Be- John Douglas. Just started reading it again.

[dteowner]

"The Unhandsome Prince" by John Moore

Comedic fantasy that isn't terribly funny nor all that well-written. Overall, a big "meh".

Started "Trace" by Patricia Cornwell.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

"Bronzestreif am Horizont", a small katalogue of a small exhibition on the bronze age here in the area of the rather north of the river Rhein (English: Rhine), which is opening tomorrow, but I was allowed to visit it today. :D

It's a nice addiition to my library on Archaeology and a nice reading, too. :)

[magerette]

Just finished The Pale Horseman, Bernard Cornwell's latest and his second in a series of novels about Britain under Alfred the Great and the many battles against the Danes. Nice, bloody, and reasonably accurate historical stuff by the guy that wrote all the Sharpe novels about the Napoleonic wars.

[txa1265]

Both my wife and I are reading 'The Golden Compass' by Philip Pullman (aka Northern Lights in the UK) - my son already chewed through the trilogy and both are looking forward to the movie coming in December.

[Geist]

Seeing Lloyd Alexander's Prydain Chronicles mentioned certainly brings back some memories. These were the books that really sparked my interest in the fantasy genre when I read them as a child. I certainly recommend them to anyone age 11 and up.
As for more mature fiction, has anyone read The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant by Stephan Donaldson? I've heard some interesting but mixed reviews and am just deliberating whether I should give them a read.

[dteowner]

Read both sets of Covenant Chronicles many years ago. Not world-shaking, but good enough to keep me reading. Don't really remember enough about them to give a detailed review.

Finished "Trace" from Patricia Cornwell last night. Although the ending is a letdown (400 pages of buildup and the bad guy is caught in 3 pages?), the book was pretty enjoyable. There's not as much of Scarpetta wallowing in self-pity as the previous couple books in the series. There's still more of that self-hatred from all the characters than I really care for, but it's presented as incidental to the action this time around. Maybe Cornwell has her life back on track enough to stop whining thru her characters.

Started "Pawn of Prophesy" from David Eddings. It's been several years since I read the Belgariad and nothing in my book drawer was grabbing me, so I decided to try and wash the stench of the Dreamers series off the pedestal I keep for Eddings.

[txa1265]

Finished "Trace" from Patricia Cornwell last night. Although the ending is a letdown (400 pages of buildup and the bad guy is caught in 3 pages?), the book was pretty enjoyable.
My wife used to eat those up, but a couple of books ago got tired of (as she says) reading the same book over and over again ... is that still the trend?

[dteowner]

The "mystery" isn't all that much different than previous volumes, but it's more palatable without the extra helping of "woe is me" that was so prevalent. For a few books, the story was a minor sideline to all the character introspection. I don't know that I'd tell her to go buy it, though.

[Corwin]

I enjoyed Donaldson's first couple of series, then went right off him.

[magerette]

Just finished The Other Boleyn Girl, by Philippa Gregory, quite a decent potboiler about Henry VII's sex life amidst the greedy and unscrupulous power brokers of Tudor England. Not excruciatingly historically accurate, yet neither is it a typical bodice-ripper.
Started The List of Seven, by Mark Frost and it's also a lot better than I expected. Well-written Victorian novel of the occult told through the persona of Conan Doyle, and presenting a Holmesian character called Jack Sparks. So many bad novels take this route that I really wouldn't have bought the book, but got it as a loan from a friend and it's surprisingly good.

[txa1265]

After I finish Golden Compass I need to go back and re-read 'Atlas Shrugged' based on the Bioshock discussion ... heck, it has been at least 20 years since I touched it ...

[magerette]

After I finish Golden Compass I need to go back and re-read 'Atlas Shrugged' based on the Bioshock discussion ... heck, it has been at least 20 years since I touched it ...

High school for me (40 years--EEK!) But it says a lot that I have a few rudimentary memories of it still. My last trip to the dollar book store, the proprietor and I got into a brief discussion about her as he had just bought in her whole opus, all the novels, tons of books of essays, etc. I almost bought a few, then decided, like you, that I could reread Atlas Shrugged and get the whole philosophy pretty much. Just rereading her most seminal novel would probably be more than enough of Ms Rand for me. :)

[ToddMcF2002]

Struggling with Erikson's Gardens of the Moon.

I'll see it through but its I'm not pleased with the intentionally vague dialog. There is mysterious and then there is obnoxious. Only on page 130, but the comparison to Martin is a bit of a stretch.

[dteowner]

Rolled right into "Queen of Sorcery". I usually break up series when I read them, but so far the series still renews my faith in calling Eddings my favorite author.

[enodenroH]

In the last two months, I've read : Harry Potter 5 and 6 and around 140 of the 1rst Dragonlance Chronicles - Dragons of Autumn Twilight.

Started the 7th Harry Potter this week.
Am also reading The Dark Elf Trilogy (Salvatore) #1 - Homeland.
Almost done with this one. Read it around 15 years ago.

Keeping my mind active once more.

P.S. : And yes Todd, I stole your Avatar!!! ;)

[magerette]

I finished The List of Seven and was bothered by some familiar elements in its quirky Holmes/Doyle meets Madame Blavatsky/Lovecraft storyline, but found that this was explained when I got to the bio of the author on the back cover, Mark Frost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Frost), among his credits being Twin Peaks :) A good read if somewhat silly at times.
I've recently been exploring the world of Appalachia in Sharyn McCrumb's novels of a small Tenneesee community and its inhabitants, ghostly, criminal and historical. She's quite a good writer and brings a different focus to the mystery genre. Just finished The Rosewood Casket and recommend it to anyone who likes a little history, and the occasional ghost story thrown into their detective novel.

[Neo]

I recently finished the third installment of Robin Hobb's latest trilogy. The book was called Renegade Magic, from the Soldier Son trilogy. With the completion of this book I have read all the four trilogies written by Hobb. Although this was a good trilogy, I was not as good as the Farseer trilogy and the Tawny Man trilogy, but it was better then the Liveship Traders trilogy. A very suprising, yet satisfying ending!

[ToddMcF2002]

Yes I see my avatar has been "borrowed" LOL

I've got 100 pages or so left of Gardens of the Moon. Good enough to keep going with the series but it doesnt exactly grab me like I hoped. Has anyone else here read Erikson? Does it get better? The weakness I see is character development and too many characters. Martin certainly has too many characters but he flushes them out completely while Erikson sometimes doesnt even bother to physically describe some of them. After 100 pages he might mention a character has skin dark as night. That would have been nice to know. He fails to even describe whole races!

Erikson must really like Dune, another book that frustrates me to no end with lack of description.

[Zaleukos]

Since I had to move to a small apartment for a temp job I dumped most of my library at my parents place in the countryside, and I miss the collection badly. I only brought some of my dads books (he ordered a bunch from the library of military history and some of them are interesting) and am currently reading "the battle for the Falklands" by Hastings & Jenkins. It gives an interesting account of a conflict I know little about, but the translation to Swedish is VERY stilted and the insights into the Argentinian side are minimal. In all it reminds me of many of the stuffs this Anglophile country swallows whole (sports news from English-speaking countries are also filled with horrible translations of wordplays that only make sense in English)...

I loved Dune and the two books after it, as well as "Chapter house". Books 4 and 5 in the series and all the spinoffs are crap though.

[dteowner]

Completed the Belgariad last night. While not quite as good as I remember, it was still an excellent read from my favorite author. Haven't decided what's up next.

[enodenroH]

Finished the last Potter at the begining of this week.
Could've been better. I preferred the Half Blood Prince.

Now, reading #2 of the Dark Elf Trilogy : EXILE.

Yes Drizzt, Kill them all!!! :mwahaha:

[magerette]

Finally got my hands on a copy of the Shadows over Baker Street anthology mentioned a few pages back; enjoyed it enormously. If you're a fan of Sherlock Holmes and/or Lovecraft, I would highly recommend it. Gaiman's Study in Emerald is excellent, but I also enjoyed the tale of Watson and his orderly Murray and their encounter in Afghanistan with the Weeping Ones, as well as Colonel Sebastian Moran and the burning metal tiger from beyond space and time. :) Good stuff.

[Prime Junta]

Ha, yeah -- that one rocks. But I think you actually have to be a bit of a fan of *both* Holmes and Lovecraft to "get it" -- otherwise the references are so bizarre that they'll probably fly right past you leaving you going WTF??? in a big way.

[magerette]

Very true--it's a blend that works well but you do have to appreciate both flavors.

Prime Junta wrote elsewhere:
Actually, I'd suggest you start with a commentary on Plato rather than the man himself. Plato's world was so different from our own that unless you're already really deep into it, you'll completely misunderstand him.

Rather than follow Corwin's red herring any further off topic in the Witcher thread, thought I'd ask if you had any particular commentary in mind here. There's no doubt in my mind that I could easily "completely misunderstand" or just plain fail to understand Greek philosophy, so it would have to be on the primer level, I'm afraid. :)
Actually, fiction would be even better, but I don't know if any exists.

[Lethal Weapon]

magerette, there are free English translations all over the net, just google them if you don't feel like buying a book. I have to disagree with PJ, there is no real need to start with a commentary. I've been studying Plato as well as other ancient philosophers since I was 14 (they teach them at school here, or at least they used to), and in my experience it is a never-ending trip. You can never hope to fully understand them and your interpetration is bound to be highly subjective, I found myself giving different interpretations at different stages of my life. People are trying to interpret them for more than two thousand years with no final conclusion yet. On the other hand you will be surprised to see how many very simple things that today most people are taking for granted without giving as much as a second thought, were actually a subject of debate back then, this was an age that the very basis of our modern way of thinking was forming.

Regarding Plato in particular, the good news is that he is particularly pleasant to read. His works are written as theatrical plays, so instead of being confronted with difficult to understand text as is the case with many other philosophers, you will only be reading dialogues and you will be expected to make your own parallelisms as to what is really meant or discussed and then draw your own conclusions. I would suggest however to start with "Socrates' Apology" and leave "The Symposium" until much later on as many of the more complex matters are discussed in the latter.

Other things to keep in mind:

- Plato lived in an age that slavery was the basis of all economy and monarchy was the most common type of government. Some of what he writes might seem at a first glance as an effort to justify this state of affairs.
- Although Socrates will appear as a main character in many dialogues, Plato simply honours his teacher. This is not the real Socrates speaking, and Plato's works are not historical accounts of the lives and beliefs of the people presented in his works. They are mostly 'fictional' in this regard.

Other than that, should you decide to go on, happy reading!

[magerette]

Lethal Weapon wrote:

Regarding Plato in particular, the good news is that he is particularly pleasant to read. His works are written as theatrical plays, so instead of being confronted with difficult to understand text as is the case with many other philosophers, you will only be reading dialogues and you will be expected to make your own parallelisms as to what is really meant or discussed and then draw your own conclusions.

That answers my question about fictional treatment, which I find much easier to digest, though I realize drama of Plato's time is not going to be a Broadway musical ;)
We did get some background in Greek authors in school, but not much. We studied Medea and read about Socrates drinking hemlock and so forth, but that was all very long ago for me. I appreciate you taking the time to point out a place to start refreshing my memory, Lethal Weapon. :)

[nessosin]

Is there anyone else who's longing to get a grip on sadly still unfinished "Dance of Dragons" ? :(

[Alrik Fassbauer]

- Although Socrates will appear as a main character in many dialogues, Plato simply honours his teacher. This is not the real Socrates speaking, and Plato's works are not historical accounts of the lives and beliefs of the people presented in his works. They are mostly 'fictional' in this regard.

That's right, as far as I know.

We know basically very few of the *real* Socrates. Mostly through Platon and one book by another Philosopher (whose name I've forgotten, sorry).

Since they have written from their memories, their memories about Socrates might be distorted to some extend.

Evben more, with Platon we can suspectz that he sort of "utilizes" the *real* Socrates to help him, Platon, in explaining his - Platons - beliefs.

So, we can't really tell which of the things we know about Socrates is *really* him ...

[Lethal Weapon]

That answers my question about fictional treatment, which I find much easier to digest, though I realize drama of Plato's time is not going to be a Broadway musical ;)


This is the Socratic method of philosophizing. Not real drama actually, the idea being that it is not a philosopher's job to provide you with new truths, but rather help you to give birth to what you already know (the truth lies inside us).

BTW, your new avatar reminds me of a ... Bruxa!!! :D (no offense intended)

We know basically very few of the *real* Socrates.

Socrates spoke through his actions and lifestyle. He's known to have been a fierce warrior during the Persian Wars and risked his life several times rather than conform with the Thirty Tyrrants (the ancient equivalent of a dictatorship). On the other hand, when he was confronted with either death or excile by the Athenian Democracy, he chose death. Although married and with three sons he never seemed to particularly care about his family. Instead he would prefer the company of other people's wives (Aspasia being his favourite), when he was not visiting the local priestesses (read: ancient prostitutes, held in high esteem back then). He would regularly debate philosophical matters with youngsters but never accept to have a student. Although poor, he probably didn't work a single day. A very controversial figure indeed.

[Prime Junta]

Rather than follow Corwin's red herring any further off topic in the Witcher thread, thought I'd ask if you had any particular commentary in mind here. There's no doubt in my mind that I could easily "completely misunderstand" or just plain fail to understand Greek philosophy, so it would have to be on the primer level, I'm afraid. :)
Actually, fiction would be even better, but I don't know if any exists.

The philosophy isn't the problem; the problem is that basic concepts meant different things for him than they do for us. For example, if Plato writes that young men should practice music and philosophy in order to maintain their virtue, he does not mean that playing the harp and talking about metaphysics keeps them away from loose women.

Far and away the best commentary on Plato that I've read is one I've recommended here before -- The Open Society and its Enemies, Vol. 1, by Karl R. Popper. It's considered one of the seminal works of 20th century philosophy too, but to my recollection it's pretty accessible... even if it's not exactly light bedtime reading. (He also completely shreds the poor old Greek.)

If you want fiction, the best fictionalized approach to philosophy I've read is Sophie's World by Joostein Gaarder. It does cut a quite a few corners, is a bit naive, and has a bit of a political agenda too, so I'm not sure I can recommended it completely whole-heartedly, but it's not all bad either.

But if you want a quick overview, you could do worse than the pretty good Wikipedia article [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato ] -- or just about any introduction to Western philosophy.

(Oh, and I would avoid Bertrand Russell. He's heavy, turgid, and way overrated IMO.)

[Prime Junta]

Socrates spoke through his actions and lifestyle. He's known to have been a fierce warrior during the Persian Wars and risked his life several times rather than conform with the Thirty Tyrrants (the ancient equivalent of a dictatorship). On the other hand, when he was confronted with either death or excile by the Athenian Democracy, he chose death. Although married and with three sons he never seemed to particularly care about his family. Instead he would prefer the company of other people's wives (Aspasia being his favourite), when he was not visiting the local priestesses (read: ancient prostitutes, held in high esteem back then). He would regularly debate philosophical matters with youngsters but never accept to have a student. Although poor, he probably didn't work a single day. A very controversial figure indeed.

...according to Plato.

Again, a quick reminder: everything we know about Socrates, we know through Plato, and it's pretty clear that Plato used Socrates a sock puppet when it suited him.

In other words, treat any account about who Socrates was and what he stood for with a certain amount of skepticism. He's a bit like the historical Christ -- fascinating but frustratingly difficult to discern behind the accumulated layers of myths, meanings, misinterpretations, and outright lies.

[Lethal Weapon]

PJ, Popper is one of Plato's most fierce critics (along with Nietzsche), so reading him before Plato would create a bias. As for the wikipedia thing, I tend not to take them too seriously, but the article you linked doesn't read that bad. I agree with you with not taking Plato's descriptions as historical accounts, see my posts above. There is also the mouth-to-mouth tradition, however unreliable (much like many other historical figures).

[Prime Junta]

Re Eragon: did anyone else notice that the plot is point-for-point identical with Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope?

[Prime Junta]

PJ, Popper is one of Plato's most fierce critics (along with Nietzsche), so reading him before Plato would create a bias. As for the wikipedia thing, I tend not to take them too seriously, but the article you linked doesn't read that bad. I agree with you with not taking Plato's descriptions as historical accounts, see my posts above. There is also the mouth-to-mouth tradition, however unreliable (much like many other historical figures).

I wouldn't recommend that you end your study of Plato with Popper, even if you start with it -- but I would strongly recommend that your study of Plato includes Popper, never mind whether you start with it, end with it, or include it somewhere in the middle.

As to bias, that's something we have to live with anyway. We have to make up our own mind about who's got it right and who's got it wrong -- but the middle of the road, the apparently neutral, apparently unbiased point of view isn't always it. Personally, I much, much prefer reading someone who isn't shy about stating their opinion: stuff that's written in an apparently neutral tone to keep the preconceptions hidden is much more insidious, as well as dishonest.

[txa1265]

Re Eragon: did anyone else notice that the plot is point-for-point identical with Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope?

Absolutely, but for kids that is OK ... and the fact that it was a kid that wrote it. My older son loved the books when he was ~9, and we all went (incl. wife's sister's family) to see the fun but very flawed movie. It was even more evident there.

Edit - not saying it is acceptable to have such a thinly veiled rip-off for kids, but rather I have found that kids are more forgiving of it. They are OK seeing the same story in a different setting, as it is similar to their own sense of imaginative play in many ways.

[Prime Junta]

I wasn't complaining; I just found it amusing when I read it. What's more, the entire Star Wars saga is a "rip-off" of mythoi from just about everywhere, so I can't see how anyone could really seriously object.

And yeah, it was a good enough read.

[magerette]

This is the Socratic method of philosophizing. Not real drama actually, the idea being that it is not a philosopher's job to provide you with new truths, but rather help you to give birth to what you already know (the truth lies inside us).

Quite a good way of phrasing it, LW.

BTW, your new avatar reminds me of a ... Bruxa!!! :D (no offense intended)

Perhaps because she is one? And I can see why you might not want to offend her;)

... Although married and with three sons he never seemed to particularly care about his family. Instead he would prefer the company of other people's wives (Aspasia being his favourite), when he was not visiting the local priestesses (read: ancient prostitutes, held in high esteem back then). He would regularly debate philosophical matters with youngsters but never accept to have a student. Although poor, he probably didn't work a single day. A very controversial figure indeed.

I have a feeling I might become a bit antipathic concerning Socrates then--if you substitute "hippy girls" for priestesses, he sounds exactly like my first husband.

The philosophy isn't the problem; the problem is that basic concepts meant different things for him than they do for us...

Understood. When you look at thoughts or events in the distant past, you have to refrain from superimposing current definitions, values and conventions or you can only jump to the wrong conclusions.

*snip* Far and away the best commentary on Plato that I've read is one I've recommended here before -- The Open Society and its Enemies, Vol. 1, by Karl R. Popper...
If you want fiction, the best fictionalized approach to philosophy I've read is Sophie's World by Joostein Gaarder. /*snip*.

But if you want a quick overview, you could do worse than the pretty good Wikipedia article [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato ] -- or just about any introduction to Western philosophy.

Thanks for the recommendations. They've gone on my ever-lengthening booklist. After reading the Wikipedia entry, I was reminded of what fiction I had vaguely been thinking of and it dealt with Aristotle not Plato, that being Mary Renault's trilogy about Alexander the Great. Great author and particularly vivid in her treatment of Ancient Greece, though somewhat romantic, of course.

(Oh, and I would avoid Bertrand Russell. He's heavy, turgid, and way overrated IMO.)

I've managed to do that so far in life, and now will feel better about continuing to do so. ;)

[Lucky Day]

- Plato lived in an age that slavery was the basis of all economy and monarchy was the most common type of government. Some of what he writes might seem at a first glance as an effort to justify this state of affairs.


I wouldn't necessarily say that. The Greek cities did a lot of experimenting with Governments and much of his writing is a reaction to Athenian Democracy. His ideal state of government of Philosopher kings appears a lot like Sparta's government at the time.

However, I don't want to say too much as I've only read bits and pieces of it and I'm walking into the middle of your conversation. I've read more about it than actually read it which can be a bit dangerous. I also read a lot of history so I tend to know no more about the context these people live in their daily lives.

---

Right now I'm reading Dracula. I enjoy how Stoker takes great liberties with perspectives to tell the story. Its not just one persons view point. He jumps from diary entries and journals to dialogues of letters to newspaper clippings and even a ship's log so far. This is not something you can bring to the movies. Other fascinating things he has is Drac's long bushy mustache and him sitting out in the sun. Plus, his aversion to water. Stoker is trying to get the feel of a Bronte novel by setting part of it in dreary Yorkshire and the quaint folk that live there. I'm starting to see how it rises above the vampire stories that came before him.

[Lethal Weapon]

The Greek cities did a lot of experimenting with Governments and much of his writing is a reaction to Athenian Democracy.

Not 'Greek cities', just Athens, take Athens out of the picture and you're left with monarchies everywhere else (with the occasional odd exception). And even Athenians had slaves.

His ideal state of government of Philosopher kings appears a lot like Sparta's government at the time.

Not really. Spartan kings were not philosophers, certainly not in the Platonic sense, and the Spartan state was far from what Plato would consider ideal. Sparta is well known because of Thermopylae, but in reality contributed next to nothing to the ancient Greek culture.

However, I don't want to say too much as I've only read bits and pieces of it and I'm walking into the middle of your conversation. I've read more about it than actually read it which can be a bit dangerous. I also read a lot of history so I tend to know no more about the context these people live in their daily lives.

I don't really feel like going into much depth, but the key point to understand is that Plato judges every political system relative to the quality of its citizens. So that there can be 'bad democracies', 'good tyrranies' and vice versa. If Plato were to judge today's modern democracies he would no doubt describe them as oligarchies (we elect our rulers) and then he would go on to argue that most people are slaves (we have to work to earn a living).

@magerette I was preparing a longer answer, but instead I'll say if you are staying
away from Russel, the father of modern mathematical logic, you might just as well stay away from Plato, he's about 1000x 'worse'.

[magerette]

Lethal Weapon wrote:
I was preparing a longer answer, but instead I'll say if you are staying
away from Russel, the father of modern mathematical logic, you might just as well stay away from Plato, he's about 1000x 'worse'.

I wasn't trying to be overly flippant earlier, Lethal Weapon, but it would be wrong for me to project myself as being terribly interested in ( or capable of!) mathematical logic. I requested "primer level" for a reason :)...Insofar as I am interested in purely academic topics, I would probably prefer to read a botanical text.

I find your discussion,your enthusiasm and your explanations far more interesting because they are part of a dialogue between people than I would if I read them in a book-because I enjoy learning about myself and others through people speaking and stating their ideas and beliefs, and much of what interests me about the discussion is the personality of the participants; IOW, I'm interested in your opinions about Plato (or whatever you choose to discuss) because I'm interested in people and how they think far more than I am in any interpretation I could make on my own of the same ideas stated on a page.

I did have my curiosity piqued, and I do intend to explore the topic, but I am not the kind of abstract reasoner that can crack open a volume of Keirkegaard or Nietzsche and find pure enjoyment in the process. ;) Actually, what would engage me most might be similar to what I conceive as the approach Plato might have used in his Academy, being part of an attentive audience as he verbally propounded his ideas and others responded.

I do apologize if you thought I was making light of your kind attempts to fill in the yawning gaps in my knowledge of the subject. :)

[Corwin]

Actually, philosophy shouldn't be 'read', it needs to be experienced. The 'value' of philosophy comes from the process, not the product!! IMHO :)

[Lethal Weapon]

I do apologize if you thought I was making light of your kind attempts to fill in the yawning gaps in my knowledge of the subject. :)

No need to, you never did or say anything wrong as far as I am concerned.

Actually, what would engage me most might be similar to what I conceive as the approach Plato might have used in his Academy, being part of an attentive audience as he verbally propounded his ideas and others responded.

Agreed, the way I see it, it is a failure of our educational systems that they don't convey knowledge in any interesting way.

I wasn't trying to be overly flippant earlier, Lethal Weapon, but it would be wrong for me to project myself as being terribly interested in ( or capable of!) mathematical logic.

Never suggested that you should, Russel was a philosopher as well as a mathematician and most of his works can be read without any prior knowledge required. Even his Principia Mathematica only requires some knowledge on basic arithmetic. My reference to him was because I was somewhat disturbed to see one of the greatest philosophers of our time being so easily dismissed as 'overated'.

[mytgroo]

I am reading Schulz and Peanuts, a biography of Charles Schulz. It is very thick reading, but a lot of fun. Even though Schulz was very religious, never drank, never smoked, and was straight as an arrow, his life is still pretty interesting. There is a lot of the cartoon strip in it.

I also like to read from http://www.baen.com/library/ -- the Baen Free Library of science fiction books.

I also just started a blog which lists most of the things I had been reading during the last year. This might be spam to some of you so close your eyes.

http://www.bookcalendar.blogspot.com

[Cm]

Nice link. I know I will get some use out of that one. Thanks.

[dteowner]

Plugging thru "The Ruins" by Scott Smith. Should have read some reviews before buying this one. At the 60% mark, I'm starting to wish it was over.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Bought myself the novels "Den Göttern versprochen" about Myranor - the rather "high-fantasy" setting of the Dark Eye rule system, and "Armee der Verdammten", a novel from the Armalion setting (Armalion is an table-top system for The Dark Eye, plus an never finished C-RPG which eventually became Sacred).

[Black Hood]

I just finished Joe Abercrombie's "The Blade Itself" which I bought yesterday afternoon and read straight through (barring the time I was at work). A nice gritty hardboiled fantasy novel with a lot of good characters. I just ordered the next book in the series. I wish it was here right now!
There seems to be a lot of fantasy coming out lately that I have really enjoyed. Patrick Rothfuss' The Name Of The Wind, Scott Lynch's The Lies Of Locke Lamora and the sequel Red Seas Under Red Skies, Steven Erikson's Malazan books, R. Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing series (I see there's another book slated for release in January 2009 - thank goodness, as i was taken aback by the abrupt ending of the last one), China Mieville's novels... I've enjoyed all of these.
I posted this in another thread as well - a little Witcher related tidbit- Gollancz will be publishing some (all?) of Sapkowski's other novels about Geralt starting with Blood Of The Elves in 2008; it's up for pre-order on Amazon.com UK.

[ToddMcF2002]

Just wrapping up Steven Erikson's Malazan book #2 Deadhouse Gates.

I continue to struggle with this series frankly. I know it has a strong following but it is still somewhat unreachable although I'm starting to "get it" - the brilliance that is. To me it is still essentially George Martin meets Dune. Lots of characters, lots of gore, lots of vague mysticism and politics. Forget guessing what is going to happen next that is for certain!

Anyone else read this stuff?

[Prime Junta]

Just bought and read Vol 1 of "Sandman." I'm somewhat into Franco-Belgian comics, but pretty nearly completely clueless about the American stuff beyond Walt Disney on the one hand and Art Spiegelman on the other.

I liked it, a quite a lot actually, especially the last piece. I'll go pick up some more of them one of these days.

Also bought Feersum Enjinn by Iain M. Banks, but haven't stated on that yet.

[dteowner]

Blasted thru Simon Green's first Nightside book and enjoyed it enough to pick up the next 2.

Currently working on Carl Hiassen's first book.

[Dantre]

Just wrapping up Steven Erikson's Malazan book #2 Deadhouse Gates.

I continue to struggle with this series frankly. I know it has a strong following but it is still somewhat unreachable although I'm starting to "get it" - the brilliance that is. To me it is still essentially George Martin meets Dune. Lots of characters, lots of gore, lots of vague mysticism and politics. Forget guessing what is going to happen next that is for certain!

Anyone else read this stuff?

I just finished that one too, and I agree with you ;). I definitly liked it, but I admit that I also find it very complex and difficult to follow. I didn't hated the first book, but to be honest I wasn't sure what was really going on. The second one was a bit easier to understand, though, and I hope with the third book it will be even easier.

I think the problem is that his world is incredibly rich (Middle-Earth is simplistic compared to it), but the author does a poor job of introducing it to the reader. For example, there are many differents races (and we're not talking about the clichéd elves/dwarves/hobbits here), but with hardly any descriptions on how any of them look like. Also, we the readers don't really know this world, but the characters certainly don't have THAT problem so they don't explain much to each other. I believe it's especially important for a fantasy novel to properly introduce its setting. It's not as if the story takes place in a real place like America :(. Still, I'll stick with it for the moment.

Hopefully one of these days, some kind of guide will come out, like there is for the Shannarra and Wheel of Time series. It would definitly be really useful :).

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Was reading the Wintersmith by Terry Pratchett the other day.

Nice book, but falls down too much on the last third.
Looks like rushed there.

[Prime Junta]

I agree. Definitely the weakest of the Tiffany series. I laughed out loud when Tiffany whacked the green-hag on the head with a frying pan in Wee Free Men, but she seems to have lost that anarchic edge in Wintersmith.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

My main complaint is that the first part was well, built, but the second part feels mor & more rushed - like as if there was a time-table to fill, or he did't have any more interest in it.

Also, my main complaint is that the posibility for sooo many underlying themes weren't used at all.
One example is the journey of the hero. It should've been like Tiffany's journey in the first book, not this weak wishy-washy.

[ToddMcF2002]

I just finished that one too, and I agree with you ;). I definitly liked it, but I admit that I also find it very complex and difficult to follow. I didn't hated the first book, but to be honest I wasn't sure what was really going on. The second one was a bit easier to understand, though, and I hope with the third book it will be even easier.

I think the problem is that his world is incredibly rich (Middle-Earth is simplistic compared to it), but the author does a poor job of introducing it to the reader. For example, there are many differents races (and we're not talking about the clichéd elves/dwarves/hobbits here), but with hardly any descriptions on how any of them look like. Also, we the readers don't really know this world, but the characters certainly don't have THAT problem so they don't explain much to each other. I believe it's especially important for a fantasy novel to properly introduce its setting. It's not as if the story takes place in a real place like America :(. Still, I'll stick with it for the moment.

Hopefully one of these days, some kind of guide will come out, like there is for the Shannarra and Wheel of Time series. It would definitly be really useful :).

Yeah I hear you. Try this, its very good!
http://encylopaediamalazica.pbwiki.com/

I'm about 100 pages into book 3 now. I'm still deciding if I like it LOL

No, I definitely like it. I drank the Kool-Aid. I need to know what happens next. I've never met an author (Besides Martin) who willfully abandons a host of characters completely (book 2) just to resume the original storyline and leave events on another continent completely unresolved. Bastard!

He is brilliant though isnt he? Almost condescending to his reader leaving us half in the dark. On the upside, there is a conversation early in Book 3 between Paran and someone I won't name that explains quite a number of things. Really I'm not kidding! Stuff that goes back to Book 1. I read the conversation 3 times to make sure I got it!

Still no idea what the hell is going on with those Azath houses though. Where they fit in that is. It is a myyyyyyyssstery.

[Dantre]

Yeah I hear you. Try this, its very good!
http://encylopaediamalazica.pbwiki.com/


I'm not sure I want to check that website. I'm sure it's good, but I fear that it may spoil more than a few surprises (like the true identity of two Ascendents that was revealed in the second book, for example).

I'll bookmark it, and then check it out when I finally catch up with the latest release :). Thanks for the link.

[magerette]

Picked up a copy of The Algebraist at the used bookstore last week on Prime Junta's recommendation--it's my first Iain Banks and I'm enjoying it quite a bit ( I'm a sucker for any book that has a prologue written by the Head Gardener)Only a few chapters in and already had to grab the dictionary (diaspora--very nice word) which is always a good sign.

Edit: Well, due to power outage and computer deprivation, spent all day yesterday reading this book by window-light. Fortunately the power came on late in the evening so I could finish it without ruining what's left of my eyesight reading by kerosene lamp. :) Have to say I almost laid it down around the 50 page mark, but after that it became quite a classic read. The author has a rathey chewy sentence and paragraph style--writing even longer sentences than I do without a break and throwing in a lot of creative terms for various denizens and tech systems of his invented galaxy that require a lot of patient absorption, but in the end he produces a very good sci-fi adventure with a bit more depth than usual, believable characters that range from the playful, the resourceful, to the truly pragmatically evil, and ends up with a book that reminds one of the best of Vonnegut or Vernor Vinge without in the least being derivative. Good book, and it saved me from a really dismal day of housebound boredom wrapped in a blanket and staring at the fireplace.

[Korplem]

I just finished Joe Abercrombie's "The Blade Itself"

I loved that book. The characters were great! I can't decide which is my favorite: Inquisitor Glokta or Logen Ninefingers. I couldn't wait until "Before They Are Hanged" comes out in march, in America, so I ordered it from Amazon.uk. Now the problem is waiting for book 3 to come out in the UK in march...

[Prime Junta]

Got a whole bunch of books for Christmas. Just started on Molecular Gastronomy by Hervé This. Fascinating stuff. Already discovered lots of interesting things, some of which even have practical applications.

For example, to make for a tenderer lentil soup, add some sodium bicarbonate to the water, and to make a perfect soufflé, sear the surface under a grill, then cook it by heating it from the bottom (i.e., put the dish on the floor of the oven).

[JemyM]

Practical Ethics by Peter Singer
Tro och Vetande 2.0 (Belief and Knowledge 2.0) by Christer Sturemark

That's about what I have time to read before the next year.

[Corwin]

Singer and I tend not to agree on many things!! Still, he's interesting to read. :)

[JemyM]

Singer and I tend not to agree on many things!! Still, he's interesting to read. :)

It's part of my advanced philosophy studies. Im making lots of notes while reading the book, comments that I will use when I review the book next year. :)

[Alrik Fassbauer]

The Treasure Island (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Island) in a softcover version (translated, I think I'll buy the English original one day) and a collection of tales by Edgar Allan Poe (in Englisgh) - a variety of themes, not just the mystery and horror themes he's so much known for.

[magerette]

Got a whole bunch of books for Christmas. Just started on Molecular Gastronomy by Hervé This. Fascinating stuff. Already discovered lots of interesting things, some of which even have practical applications.

For example, to make for a tenderer lentil soup, add some sodium bicarbonate to the water, and to make a perfect soufflé, sear the surface under a grill, then cook it by heating it from the bottom (i.e., put the dish on the floor of the oven).

Don't know if you get the cable television channel Food Network in Finland, but there is a cook on it called Alton Brown, whose show, Good Eats, often features the physics of cooking, complete with blackboard and math formulas. One of the only shows I miss now that we're cable-less. :)

I also got books for Christmas, but they are mostly quite frivolous. The only one with a literary pedigree would be Dorothy Dunnet's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Dunnett) Caprice and Rondo, the next to last installment in her saga of 15th century banking and trade called the House of Niccolo series. It's a good series, full of swashbuckling and historical detail, and functions as a prequel to The Lymond Chronicles, (The Game of Kings, Queen's Play, Pawn in Frankincense, The Disordely Knights, etc) her series about the political machinations of 16th century Europe. Like most prequels, it's not got quite the same magic as the original series but she's always a good read.

[narpet]

I've decided to expand my literary horizons by reading some intellectual material (not)... ;)

Reading The Army Of Darkness RPG core rulebook (got it for Christmas). I don't know if I will ever get my gaming group to play it, but it's pretty fun stuff to read.

[dteowner]

Just finished Agents of Light and Darkness by Simon R Green. Not going to win any awards, but very enjoyable. I picked up a couple more books in the series the other day, so there will be more to come.

I pulled Robin Hobb's Mad Ship out of the drawer this morning (expecting a very slow day at work), but I don't know if I'll start it or not. The first book in the series didn't exactly grab me (partially my fault, and partially the book's) but I bought the last two books of the trilogy so I'm feeling a little obligated to work on them.

[Bigpapa]

Currently: This forum
Sometimes it's even better than any novels ;)

[Prime Junta]

Read another two books: La Force Qui Nous Manque by Eva Joly, and Suomen historian suuret myytit by Osmo Jussila. The former is a short autobiography of the world's leading anti-corruption investigator/prosecutor (she's the one who busted the Elf case in France a while back), and the latter is a discussion of myths in Finnish historiography and popular consciousness.

I was quite impressed by the former; less so by the latter, which I found to be carelessly written, uneven, and lacking in focus. Sort of like one of my more long-winded postings here, only blown up to 200 pages; not something I'd expect in hard covers and written by a respected professor emeritus.

[HiddenX]

I just finished the last book in the Sword of Truth series: Confessor

It is a good book, with two exceptions:

1) too many rephrases and repetitions of Terry Goodkind's underlying philosophy
2) too many lucky coincidences for my taste - okay - it is a fantasy novel ;)

all in all a great series.

[Corwin]

I recently finished the Dreamers series by Eddings!! What a disappointment. Much was recycled from previous novels with only the names changed. Anyone remember a female child goddess who likes to be kissed?? The ending was crap and half of each novel was a retelling of the same events from another character's perspective. The writing was frequently juvenile, as was the humour (if you can call it that)!! Had it been his first series, it would never have been published it's so puerile. Bottom line; he's a totally burnt out writer with nary a skeric of originality left in him!! Avoid at all costs.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Begun Skulduggery Pleasant ... nice book, begins to catch me on. :)

[dteowner]

Hurts to say it being a major Eddings fan, but you're right, Corwin.

[Corwin]

Hey, I've read everything he's written and most of them I own. I used the Library for the Dreamers as they're not out in PB here yet. It's sad how far his work has deteriorated; he just doesn't have any more books left in him and is now trading on his reputation!! Compare that to say Feist who is still being creative!!

[dteowner]

I'm just hoping the Dreamers was something to pay the bills or satisfy a contract while he's working on a "real" series. It would be a real shame if Dreamers is all he's got left in him.

[skavenhorde]

I just finished the last book in the Sword of Truth series: Confessor

It is a good book, with two exceptions:

1) too many rephrases and repetitions of Terry Goodkind's underlying philosophy
2) too many lucky coincidences for my taste - okay - it is a fantasy novel ;)

all in all a great series.

I will be reading that pretty soon. I didn't even know it was out yet.

I was hoping Goodkind would stop repetiting the same thing over and over and over again. He did that in the last book and it really annoyed the hell out of me. I felt like yelling at the book "Ok, I get it now. Stop telling me the same thing over and over."

That being said I still love every one of his books about Richard and Kahlan and I like his philosophy on life. My only complaint is the repetition.

[Corwin]

If you don't like repetition, don't read the Dreamers!!

[JemyM]

I got a few new books on Jul and my 30th birthday (the 29'th):
Leviathan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan_(book)) by Thomas Hobbs, one of the more influential books on the western civilization and the modern world.

When Religion Becomes Evil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Religion_Becomes_Evil) by Charles Kimball, a baptist minister who write down five warning signs that a religion is going evil;
* Absolute Truth Claims
* Blind Obedience
* Establishing the "Ideal" Time
* The End Justifies Any Means
* Declaring Holy War

The Christ Conspiracy & Suns of God by Acharya S (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acharya_S). The theory that several religions such as Christianity are connected to natural phenomenon and pagan religions is not new but Acharya S is one of the most recent author on the subject. The first book was highly controversial and had a few unverified claims in it. The second book is more of an updated version, fixing the issues with the first one.

[Eliaures]

This shows my political stripe, but I just finished two books that leave me satisfied but depressed.

The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein

About "shocking" countries either through regime change, natural disasters, or war; to make countries ripe for applying Milton Friedman's Chicago School economy on those countries.

Imperial Life in the Emerald City by Rajiv Chandrasekaran

Though not related to "The Shock Doctrine", it came out before, it is a good example of "shock therapy" applied to Iraq. Studied incompetence to destroy a country's infrastructure to make a clean slate for privatization, flat tax rate, unlimited foreign "investment" (trying to steal Iraq's oil wealth in other words), and other Chicago school travesties.

[skavenhorde]

The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein

Imperial Life in the Emerald City by Rajiv Chandrasekaran


I saw both of these authors interviewed by Stewart. Naomi gave an interesting and disturbing look on how people in power could use disasters, natural or otherwise, to promote their agendas *cough* Patriot Act *cough*

Life in the Emerald City is also about how America walled off a section of Iraq (The Green Zone) and made it into a small American island. They would have their command and control center from this safe haven. Not exactly the most horrible of ideas but one that was doomed to failure due to the ineptitude of the people assigned to the post and the powers that be. I kid you not the administration sent in 3 guys to do the infrastructure. Let's put this in perspective Germans brought in 8,000 to help rebuild Germany after the war(I got this fact from the interview) and for all you factistas out there I'm sure it wasn't exactly 8,000 but give or take a few hundred. We send in 3, once again for all you factistas I'm sure that this number is the exact one ;). Also, people were asked about who they voted for when being assigned to this post. If you think this guy is making things up, he was there for a very long time. He saw all this. All of these little tidbits are from the interview check it out here: http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=115642&title=rajiv-chandrasekaran

I know I saw the Shock Doctrine not too long ago but I can't find it anywhere at the Daily Show (stupid beta webpage>:()

[Alrik Fassbauer]

As I heard about the book by Naomi Klein ("klein" means in German language "small", by the way), I was quite impressed. I haven't read the book, but the whole concept makes too much disturbing sense to me.

I guess she's an HSP so that she's able to perceive these things.

[skavenhorde]

If you don't like repetition, don't read the Dreamers!!

That sucks. I read the first book awhile ago and liked it. I have the second one here but haven't gotten around to reading it yet. I may not now if the last book is that horrible.


Has anyone read The Historian yet? I'm about half way through and it is amazing. I love the different cultural look at an old character, Mr. Vlad himself ;) Some of the places she describes makes me want to go there myself to see. If anyone is slightly interested in vampires or Eastern Europe I highly recommend The Historian.

[dteowner]

Compared to previous Eddings work, all 4 Dreamers books blew chunks. Relative to each other, book 1 was probably the best, book 2 was utter doggie doo, book 3 was barely average, and book 4 was decent. IMO, of course.

[Corwin]

Except for the ending, oh and the beginning!! :)

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Finished "Skulduggery Pleasant" by one Derek Landy (he's seemingly from Dublin).

My verdict: It's a very nice book. I had some fun reading it, that's why I think I can recommend it.

But: Please keep in mind that this book is aimed at and lablelled "a children's book", so don't expect too much complicated and extensive story-outlines.

Because of that, everything reads a bit "simple" ... almost too simple for my own taste.

My heaviest point of critique is that the describing of the locations needs to be "fleshed out" (like the second protagonist, by the way). They're far too thin, and don't appeal to the senses at all (especially since I'm a defender of what I call "sensual writing").
My worst example of this is the description of the "replacement car", which is given to the second protagonist (Mr. Pleasant) after he had had a small crash with his own car.
The point is that the description practically doesn't exist at all. Nothing. Nada. Niente. Niet. Nichts. All you can read is the reaction of the main protagonist (a twelve-year old girl), and the much later added nickname "Canary Car" - it is yellow.
So, the sceneries desparately need much more sensual descriptions. Hopefully this will be better in the second book which is scheduled for release in the April of 2008.

Anyone who loves dry humour should definitively take this book into consideration. The dialogues are very funny in this respect, and belong to the best ones I've read for quite some time.

This has to do, I think, with the author writing "screenplays" before, the book and the web site say. This has led imho to a very strong development of dialogues, but on the other hand leaving the rest (especially the descriptions !) very weak - they leave a lot to be desired, imho.

So, all in all, what speaks for the book is the good, dry humour, the second protagonist (an undead one) and the theme - I think I can agree to the quotes presented in the book saying that this book is a "right thing" (by me) for Harry Potter fans. It's daily life story mixed with a "second world" or "second reality" which is kind of full with magic and strange things. In this book, this is leaning a bit towards the "horror" genre - which is no surprise since the author has written - as the book says "screenplays for a zombie movie and a murderous thriller in which everybody dies". But since is a "children's book", this horror theme is taken lightly - you won't see much blood, in fact. The only real "horror-themed" thing is the confrontation with the "big evil boss" at the end of the story, and his minions.

Well, I hope I've written enough for everybody to give everyone a clue on how to decide whether this book is the "right read" for someone or not.

Alrik

[txa1265]

Well, another plane trip this week ... so I decided to read a book ;)

Completely read Vonnegut's Breakfast of Champions - it is my original 30-year old paperback, and in terrible shape at this point (pages falling out). Fortunately it is still intact. Another wonderful read - full of humor and insight and cynicism ... and complete chaos!

[magerette]

You're spending a ton of time on the road one way or another lately Mike. You might want to check out that title I talked about earlier--The Algebraist. It is definitely a Vonnegut influenced sci-fi space opera, with a lot of pages, too. ;)

[Prime Junta]

Finished off the Sandman series. Now there's something that gets better as it goes along: three of the last four volumes were superb, and the penultimate one (The Kindly Ones) is really, really hard to beat in any medium. Wow. Very very highly recommended!

Also picked up and read "Lucifer: The Devil At The Gate," a Sandman spin-off. It was surprisingly good, although I suppose it would be hard to go wrong with a comic about the Captain of the Hosts of Heaven (dishonorably discharged), Lord of Hell (retired), and best nightclub pianist in Los Angeles (and almost certainly the world.)

Starting with Stiglitz's "Making Globalization Work" next.

PS. @magerette, I'm thrilled you liked The Algebraist. Iain M. Banks is somewhat addictive, though, so be warned...

[dyze]

currently reading 'The 12th Planet' by Zecharia Sitchin, first book in the earth chronicles.
disputed - yet enjoyable :P, sumerian mythology

[txa1265]

You're spending a ton of time on the road one way or another lately Mike. You might want to check out that title I talked about earlier--The Algebraist. It is definitely a Vonnegut influenced sci-fi space opera, with a lot of pages, too. ;)

I know, I know, I know ... more flights in the last 4 weeks than the last 4 years!

Anyway, re-reading Guerrillas by V.S. Naipaul ... more wonderful stuff.

[purpleblob]

reading "Jewel of Tamar". Anyone who have played BG2 mod Tsujatha might know of this novel... ;) thinking of buying the 2nd novel as well.

[txa1265]

On the flight home I re-read Asimov's Foundation ... and a bit more of Guerillas

[magerette]

Started Captain Alatriste, by Arturo Perez-Reverte, story of a 16th century swashbuckling, mustachioed ex-soldier who now makes a seedy living as a sword-for-hire in Madrid. Great writing, but as with most translations, a lot of references to Spain, spanish customs and words that go over my head--I see a Spanish-English dictionary in my future. :)

[Eliaures]

Wow! Lots of my favorites are being read here. I'm a huge Sandman fan (eyes left, my avatar is The Sandman :) ), Asimov is one of my favorite authors and Foundation is a great series, and I finally got around to reading Vonnegut with Slaughter-House Five and A Man Without a Country.

I'm not proud of it, but I'm currently reading the first Harry Potter book. I have to admit I'm coming at it highly skeptical since fantasy for me is defined by Tolkien, but I've heard so many adults recommend it, that I've decided to take the plunge. So far I'm a bit disappointed since it's so obviously targeted at children, but I'm keeping an open mind and will stick with it. The series is supposed to get better and darker, more engaging in later books.

For those of you that like graphic novels, I highly recommend Lone Wolf and Cub (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_Wolf_and_Cub) by Kazuo Koike and Goseki Kojima. It's about a ronin assassin that is on a quest for revenge that takes his toddler son along with him in a baby cart. Sounds kind of dark and it is at times, but it's mostly uplifting and moralistic...er, in a secular way, not a right wing demagogic way.

[Prime Junta]

Harry Potter was a big let-down for me. I never even finished the series. The only redeeming feature it has IMO is that the author does capture something real about what it's like to grow up; I imagine that this is why so many pre-teens and teenagers identify with it so strongly. And its flashes of cheerful irreverence are likable too.

But the rest? Derivative, clumsily paced, often clumsily written, sometimes to the point of being downright irritating.

[woges]

The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen - Dark Dossier

Retro-future with filth thrown in - good stuff.

[magerette]

A bit further along in Captain Alatriste--Perez-Reverte is really an engaging writer--short example below if interested--(to set the scene, Alatriste is in The Tavern of the Turk, run by his benefactress a former prostitute who has taken him under her wing, drinking with his cronies--a lawyer, a Jesuit priest , and a poet in and out of political favor):

"What news of your petition?" Vicuna asked with interest.
The poet swiped his mouth with the back of his hand. A few drops of wine had fallen on the cross of Santiago embroidered on the breast of his black sleeved doublet.
"I believe," he said, " that Philip the Great is wiping his ass with it. "
"That itself is an honor," Licienciado Calzas argued.
Don Francisco appropriated another jug.
"In that case," there was a pause as he drank, "The honor is to his royal ass. The paper was good, a half ducat a ream, and I wrote it in my best hand."

'Kay sorry all--back to my reading. :)

[purpleblob]

Harry Potter was a big let-down for me. I never even finished the series. The only redeeming feature it has IMO is that the author does capture something real about what it's like to grow up; I imagine that this is why so many pre-teens and teenagers identify with it so strongly. And its flashes of cheerful irreverence are likable too.

But the rest? Derivative, clumsily paced, often clumsily written, sometimes to the point of being downright irritating.

In a way I agree with you. Harry Potter series started off really good but towards the end it kinda went down hill. I personally didnt like order of the pheonix. All harry does is getting pissed at everything for no apparent good reason. And I have to admitt, last one was bit of a let down as well.

[txa1265]

All harry does is getting pissed at everything for no apparent good reason.
Sounds like a hormonal teenager ... oh, wait, he *was* a hormonal teenager!

But I definitely think that at least starting with Goblet of Fire (and the dreadful 200-pages of Quiddich World Cup that made the Episode I Pod Race look interesting) she really needed an editor to make judicious use of, say, a hatchet and sledgehammer!

[Eliaures]

Ugh, after all these pithy comments about Harry Potter, I may have to give it the boot. I have too many other things I'd like to read. I'll finish the first one, but after that I'm reading my Christmas gifts, Blackwater by Jeremy Scahill and Michael Palin Diaries 1969 - 1979, The Python Years, by, well Michael Palin.

[Prime Junta]

Since you already started, you might as well finish the first book. You'll know if you're interested enough to grab the next one.

Harry Potter is sort of like the Oblivion of fantasy novels. Lots of people like it, most of whom aren't too familiar with the fantasy genre, so it has got to be doing something right.

(FWIW, I liked Jonathan Stroud's take on the "wizard's education" theme much better; I read The Amulet of Samarkand and The Golem's Eye, and liked them enough to keep an eye out for the final book in the trilogy... but not so much I'd just go and order it from Amazon.)

[txa1265]

Harry Potter is sort of like the Oblivion of fantasy novels. Lots of people like it, most of whom aren't too familiar with the fantasy genre, so it has got to be doing something right.

I think it is wonderful for younger kids - we started years ago doing read-alouds, and last year even though our kids could chew through the books in a couple of days we *still* did read-aloud for the last one.

The good thing about Harry Potter - and to a lesser extent the Eragon books - is the amount of kids reading them. Despite declining trends worldwide in terms of reading, these books have helped slow that decline. For our kids, they have led to curiosity to read other stuff in and out of the genre.

Also, when compared against 'great literature' or even the LotR books the Potter stuff is lacking, but compared to stuff like Stephen King, Halo and Star Wars novels, RA Salvatore and other fantasy stuff ... it really isn't so bad ...

[blatantninja]

I just started "Death Star." I'm not one generally for Star Wars novels, as less than half of those I read were worth the time, but I figured I'd give this one a try. Only 60 pages in and so far not too bad. Not to the level of the Ep III novelization, but much better than Cloak of Deception (which I think was one of the worst books I've ever read). I realize Sci-Fi can be hard to write as you are trying to describe things that don't exist, but Cloak just miserably failed in that department!

My only compliant so far is that there are a LOT of different characters with different story lines. If they don't start entwining soon, it will get old real quick!

[Prime Junta]

The good thing about Harry Potter - and to a lesser extent the Eragon books - is the amount of kids reading them. Despite declining trends worldwide in terms of reading, these books have helped slow that decline. For our kids, they have led to curiosity to read other stuff in and out of the genre.

Absolutely. Anything that gets kids to line up in front of a damn bookstore is worthy of a big tip of the hat in and of itself. I just didn't like it much myself, and I was speculating that most people who have read more than a couple of fantasy books might feel the same.

Perhaps the only thing that annoys me about Pottermania is that IMO there are a quite a few books out there that are much, much better and at least as well suited for kids. But, as you say, getting into reading through Potter makes it much more likely for a kid to grab one of them than never getting into reading at all.

[akarthis]

I just finished "Shield of thunder" by David Gemmell.It's the second book of the trilogy "troy".A very nice book with a small historical touch.The bad is that Gemmell died and the third book will be finished by his wife.
I recomend Gemmell to all who want to read a good fantasy book.Simple but addictive

[dteowner]

Gemmell's one of my favorite authors. I've been saving the two Troy books since I've read almost his entire catalog now and didn't want to get to "the end of the line" too quickly.

[akarthis]

There are 4 more books to finish all of Gemmell's writings.It is sad that he died so soon....

[HiddenX]

I am reading George R.R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" series - very good.

[Corwin]

Good, but it got depressing and the Real world's depressing enough without getting depressed when reading!! Like movies, when I come out of a film, or finish reading a book, I want to feel better than before the beginning!! That's why it's called entertainment!! :)

[Prime Junta]

Finished that Stiglitz book. I'm continuing my exploration of political economics: picked up two more of his books (Globalization And Its Discontents and The Roaring Nineties), as well as Peddling Prosperity by Paul Krugman. And to complete my bearded-lefty collection, Failed States by Noam Chomsky.

[KazikluBey]

I finished Sinuhe, egyptiern/Sinuhe, egyptiläinen/The Egyptian by Mika Waltari yesterday. Very interesting book with quite intriguing themes. Not something to read if you want an optimistic read about humanity, though. ;)

After that I picked up The Decipherment of Linear B by John Chadwick, about the discovery and decipherment of the Mycenaean written language.

For a few weeks I've been reading through Ivar Lo-Johansson's autobiography (a series of 8 books) which gives interesting insights into the life and mores of the yearly 20th century Sweden (for someone born in the late 20th century Sweden, at least).

[Prime Junta]

Yeah, The Egyptian is definitely one of those "might as well kill yourself now, it'll save time later" kinds of books -- but it really makes the ancient world come alive; Kaptah with his dung-beetle, Nefernefernefer and her machinations, Minea, Horemheb, Eje... It's hard to believe that Waltari never once visited Egypt or the Middle East. I should read it again one of these days...

[GothicGothicness]

I am reading Norwegian wood by Haruki Murakami.... interesting stuff!

[Alrik Fassbauer]

After that I picked up The Decipherment of Linear B by John Chadwick, about the discovery and decipherment of the Mycenaean written language.

Sounds interesting. I'll keep that in mind.

I'm still reading *the* Treasure Island, by the way.

One of the books everyone knows, but people seldom read.

[Eliaures]

I read Underground and Kafka on the Shore by Haruki Murakami. Both good books. I haven't read Norwegian Wood...how is it so far?

[magerette]

Some of my self help books from various threads came yesterday, so I'm now swimming in erudition. My husband snatched the Krugman book(Peddling Prosperity) so last night I started Islam:A Short History by Karen Armstrong.

It is indeed very clear and readable, and puts Prime Junta's remark about ...one thing that seriously skews our perceptions and policies in the Middle East is that we (Westerners) have a really deep-seated, almost built-in craving for resolution...The Middle East just doesn't work like that. Things just go on and on and on, for centuries or even thousands of years. into perspective. (Sorry Prime J, I really like that quote.)
Only a few chapters along as yet, but I have to say I'm amazed at the disputation level amongst the early believers, although I probably shouldn't be. I seem to recall similar stuff about the early Christians....not to mention the Old Testament. The other book of hers I found on sale was The Great Transformation:The Beginning of our Religious Traditions, which apparently talks about these three belief systems in relation to each other, which should shed some light on that.

[sean009]

I have just finished up Gone with the wind,great book.

[Corwin]

Obviously been eating too many beans!! :)

[purpleblob]

I have just finished up Gone with the wind,great book.

I dont know about the book, but I sure did love the movie version.

I'm reading "Born of evil, born to woe" now. The sequel to "Jewel of Tamar" (ppl who were interested in Tsujatha mod would know) ;)

[Prime Junta]

Just bought Iain M. Banks's newest -- Matter. About one and a half chapters in; seems promising enough so far.

[Prime Junta]

Finished it. Not bad, solid Iain M. Banks/Culture fare, compleat with galaxy-spanning engineering marvels from aeons past, various layers of Involved interfering with each other and less developed species, drones, knife missiles, even an Orbital making a cameo appearance. Nowhere near as confusing as The Use Of Weapons, despite what he said about it.

I'd rank this in the top quarter of his books -- not as good as The Use Of Weapons, The Player of Games, or The Algebraist, but better than Look To Windward, Against A Dark Background, or Feersum Endjinn.

[magerette]

Sounds interesting. I was thinking about getting around to Feersum Endjinn next, but may now alter my Banks lineup to one of the others.

Midway through Anderson's Islam and Obama's Audacity---had to get some lighter input so am reading an old favorite, Frankenstein, by Mary Shelley. I'm fond of this period in literature, the Romantic movement in general and some of the early Gothic novels, but few are as readable or seem as contemporary as this one written by an eighteen year old woman whose life was both golden and bitterly challenging. Great classic. Makes Wilkie Collins look sick.

[Eliaures]

I'm kind of frazzled from reading so many political exposes, so I'm reading a Christmas gift, Michael Palin Diaries 1969 - 1979 The Python Years.

For the longest time John Cleese was my favorite Python, but that's changed after seeing all of Michael Palin's travel documentaries. He's seems such a genuinely nice person and has a real interest in people and other cultures.

[magerette]

I think Cleese just did so many more prominent roles post-Python--especially Fawlty Towers--that he is more visible. I'm not familiar with Palin's more recent stuff.

[Eliaures]

Oh, Michael Palin hasn't done many scripted TV shows since, but he's done a lot of these travel shows (http://www.palinstravels.co.uk/). And by the way, I still love John Cleese's stuff, especially Fawlty Towers. That is probably one of the funniest shows I've ever seen. Just thinking of "Basil the Rat" and "The Germans" makes me chuckle to myself.

[Prime Junta]

I read a couple of Gothic novels -- The Castle Otranto and Vathek. They must've been really cool when they came out around 1800, but now they're the novel equivalent of Barbarella or Zardoz.

"Oh! wound not my agonising soul!" said Hippolita; "thou never
couldst offend me--Alas! she faints! help! help!"

"I would say something more," said Matilda, struggling, "but it
cannot be--Isabella--Theodore--for my sake--Oh!--" she expired.

Isabella and her women tore Hippolita from the corse; but Theodore
threatened destruction to all who attempted to remove him from it.
He printed a thousand kisses on her clay-cold hands, and uttered
every expression that despairing love could dictate.

[blatantninja]

Reading older novels can certainly be.....challenging.

Last of the Mohicans is one of my favorite movies (Daniel Day Lewis version). So a few years back I decided to actually read the novel. While I liked the story still, the style of writing and dialogue made me want to tear my eyes out at times!

[magerette]

Mark Twain has written a couple of essays on Fenimore Cooper's style (http://www.online-literature.com/twain/1317/) that will bring tears to your eyes, too. :) here's a brief sample if you haven't read them:

Cooper's gift in the way of invention was not a rich endowment; but such as it was he liked to work it, he was pleased with the effects, and indeed he did some quite sweet things with it. In his little box of stage properties he kept six or eight cunning devices, tricks, artifices for his savages and woodsmen to deceive and circumvent each other with, and he was never so happy as when he was working these innocent things and seeing them go.


@ Prime J---I commend your literary perseverance in working through Otranto--I can't make myself slog through the purple prose, gasps and swoons;-pretty over the top stuff- and as the equivalent of the modern bodice-ripper, extremely demeaning to the intelligence of the female of the species ;)--but also very seminal in the formation of the genre we now call horror. Lovecraft and even Poe himself can be a little thick to read at times.

[Prime Junta]

@ Prime J---I commend your literary perseverance in working through Otranto--I can't make myself slog through the purple prose, gasps and swoons;-pretty over the top stuff- and as the equivalent of the modern bodice-ripper, extremely demeaning to the intelligence of the female of the species ;)--but also very seminal in the formation of the genre we now call horror. Lovecraft and even Poe himself can be a little thick to read at times.

It's short.

Vathek was better written, but rather unpleasant in other ways; in particular, it contained just about every Orientalist cliché ever invented, and it had a distinctly perverted twist to it -- sort of an Arabian Nights tale written by a slightly anal-retentive Marquis de Sade with less literary talent.

So beautiful a cemetery must be haunted by Gouls! and they want not for intelligence; having heedlessly suffered my guides to expire, I will apply for directions to them, and as an inducement will invite them to regale on these fresh corpses."

After this short soliloquy she beckoned to Nerkes and Cafour, and made signs with her fingers, as much as to say, "Go, knock against the sides of the tombs, and strike up your delightful warblings, that are so like to those of the guests whose company I wish to obtain."

The negresses, full of joy at the behests of their mistress, and promising themselves much pleasure from the society of the Gouls, went with an air of conquest, and began their knockings at the tombs; as their strokes were repeated a hollow noise was heard in the earth, the surface hove up into heaps, and the Gouls on all sides protruded their noses, to inhale the effluvia which the carcases of the wood-men began to emit.

They assembled before a sarcophagus of white marble, where Carathis was seated between the bodies of her miserable guides; the princess received her visitants with distinguished politeness, and, when supper was ended, proceeded with them to business. Having soon learnt from them everything she wished to discover, it was her intention to set forward forthwith on her journey, but her negresses, who were forming tender connections with the Gouls, importuned her with all their fingers to wait at least till the dawn. Carathis, however, being chastity in the abstract, and an implacable enemy to love and repose, at once rejected their prayer, mounted Alboufaki, and commanded them to take their seats in a moment; four days and four nights she continued her route, without turning to the right hand or left; on the fifth she traversed the mountains and half- burnt forests, and arrived on the sixth before the beautiful screens which concealed from all eyes the voluptuous wanderings of her son.

[vanedor]

At the moment I'm reading the french translation of «War and peace», by Tolstoy.

A must read for anyone interested by history.

[Prime Junta]

That's a classic if there ever was one. He does tend to go on about free will and the lack thereof, though...

[magerette]

It's short.

Vathek was better written, but rather unpleasant in other ways; in particular, it contained just about every Orientalist cliché ever invented, and it had a distinctly perverted twist to it -- sort of an Arabian Nights tale written by a slightly anal-retentive Marquis de Sade with less literary talent.

I'll have to find a copy of that one, it's new to me--thanks for the rec. A lot of the tedium of early literature is that it was so busy establishing what is now cliche, though no doubt there's good grounds to assume it was already existing or at least becoming cultural cliche--nonetheless I perversely love the style:

...but her negresses, who were forming tender connections with the Gouls, importuned her with all their fingers to wait at least till the dawn. Carathis, however, being chastity in the abstract, and an implacable enemy to love and repose, at once rejected their prayer, mounted Alboufaki, and ... four days and four nights she continued her route...and arrived on the sixth before the beautiful screens which concealed from all eyes the voluptuous wanderings of her son.

Someone always has to spoil the party.
And Allboufaki would have to be a) her spirited Arab/Mameluke steed or B) an undead mount and apparition of ghastly spectral countenance, no doubt...awesome.
One can only wonder wth is going on and surmise it may be best not to know--
it doesn't get much more evocative of sinister befouled graveyards, convoluted supernatural plottings and dark mistresses than that. :)

[Prime Junta]

Erm, well, don't blame me if you do read it. The text is on-line if you don't mind reading from the screen: [ http://digital.library.upenn.edu/webbin/gutbook/lookup?num=2060 ].

[magerette]

Erm, well, don't blame me if you do read it. The text is on-line if you don't mind reading from the screen: [ http://digital.library.upenn.edu/webbin/gutbook/lookup?num=2060 ].

I may end up going that route, though I normally don't like reading a whole novel online--went to the only bookstore likely to carry it around here, and they were not able to supply it, even though it's listed online in their inventory. So I was forced to pick up Matter @ 40% off instead. It's an insidious capitalist bookseller's plot if you ask me-(-they even had buy 2 Neil Gaimans get 1 free...unfortunately my funds were exhausted by that point.) :(

[Zakhary]

I'm currently reading Something wicked this way comes.
While reading it, I constantly feel that I'm somehow left outside.
Like I'm looking at something but not quite understanding what It is I'm looking at.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

So you don't have the feeling of being drawn into the story ?

[GothicGothicness]

I read Underground and Kafka on the Shore by Haruki Murakami. Both good books. I haven't read Norwegian Wood...how is it so far?

It is great... I got crazy about him and kept reading his other books,,, THE ENDINGS are so annoying though, the latest one I finished was sputnick sweethearts, in the beginning it is brilliant, it is about a young japanese girl who fall in love with a 15 years older korean woman.....!! But the ending is ¤#"¤"¤#"%#%&¤/%/&/%&/%/% making me aaaaaangry even a week after I finished it.

[Ionstormsucks]

I commend your literary perseverance in working through Otranto--I can't make myself slog through the purple prose, gasps and swoons;-pretty over the top stuff- and as the equivalent of the modern bodice-ripper, extremely demeaning to the intelligence of the female of the species ;)--but also very seminal in the formation of the genre we now call horror. Lovecraft and even Poe himself can be a little thick to read at times.

You should read it. Otranto is, I freely admit that, not a particularly interesting story - at least not from a modern perspective. What makes The Castle of Otranto outstanding is that it is the first of its kind (at least it's usually credited to be the first one - some critics will throw in Tobia's Smollett's Ferdinand Count Fathom). It contains all the elements of the so called Terror Gothic that you will later on find in Radcliff's novels which I can also recommend. The Mysteries of Udolpho is pretty much a must. She was the dominating figure of the 1790's when it comes to Gothic fiction and one should have really read something from her. Also recommendable is Matthew Lewis' The Monk - a subversive masterpiece that marks the turn from Terror Gothic to Horror Gothic... not entirely serious, it IS transgressive even today. You have incest, matricide, blasphemy and excessive violence.
Another one which you should read is Maturin's Melmoth the Wanderer, again a rather subversive novel which picks up the legend of the wandering jew, a story which you can find in almost every western community.
And then there are of course Mary Shelly, Bram Stoker and Poe... but I guess, you've read all of them.

I admit that it is sometimes hard work to "dig" through these old works, but I really think that it always pays out in the end. If you watch "Event Horizon" on TV you'll be surprised how much it resembles the pattern that was laid down by Walpole and others. Sometimes it also helps to read some literary criticism to make things more interesting for you. Dracula which is often seen as the climax of late Victorian pop culture is certainly much more than that. But to fully understand the novel one simply needs some knowledge on Stoker and the Victorian period.

[magerette]

Thanks for the input, ISS. I've read Udolpho, but so long ago it's very indistinct. I think I've missed The Monk, though I'm familiar with its place in the field, so that's one I need to pick up. I definitely agree that it's rewarding in the end to work through these older classics, and I'll give Otranto a try next time my online bookseller has a sale.

Yes, I 've read a lot of Victoriana over the years as well, starting with Conan Doyle who broke me in to the narrative style, and perhaps some of my favorite novelists fall into that period--George Elliot and Thomas Hardy on the more serious end. It's easier I think for me to get into these books because they're quite similar in tone, phrasing and structure to the children's classics I read back in the late Stone Age of my childhood--Treasure Island, The Black Arrow, Black Beauty,Heidi, The Secret Garden etc. So segueing into the adult Victorians wasn't much of a reach. The stuff written a century or so previously, though, is bit more challenging, but as I said, I enjoy it's over the top quality, and sometimes, as in Frankenstein, it