RPGWatch Feature - Elder Scrolls: Arena Retrospective

[Dhruin]

It was 1994 that a young Bethsoft released The Elder Scrolls: Arena, creating one of the longest running franchises in PC gaming history and arguably going from strength to strength. Corwin takes a look back in this Retrospective:
The first thing I noticed, was how much the game reminded me of Ultima Underworld - it looks and plays very much like that classic. It’s first person, 3D and you have to swing your mouse to swing your sword. In many ways, despite the vast improvements in the quality of the graphics, the combat mechanics haven’t changed very much over the years. The spell effects are quite mundane by today’s standards, but they do the job. The game does contain one spell which sadly never resurfaced- Passwall. It’s marvellous being able to make any dungeon wall simply disappear.
Read it here (http://www.rpgwatch.com//forums/../show/article?articleid=28&ref=0&id=180).
More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=4224)

[JDR13]

Nice retrospective, I found one small mistake though.

" Unlike the later editions, Arena allows you to visit the entire world, not just one small area."


IIRC couldn't you go anywhere in Daggerfall as well?

[Corwin]

No, you could visit a larger area than say Morrowind, but you certainly can't visit all of Tamriel; I'm currently re-playing it with Dosbox .7!!

[JDR13]

My mistake, it's been about 10 years since I played either one. I thought I remember being able to go to different provinces in Daggerfall as well.

[Jaz]

You can visit different provinces in Daggerfall: the Iliac Bay (= game territory) spans parts of Hammerfell and High Rock. But you're never alerted to the fact as there are no state borders on the travel map (unlike Arena).
You can play characters from all over Tamriel (except Imperials and Orcs), however, so the character generation map of Daggerfall might be what you were thinking of, JDR13.

[GhanBuriGhan]

While you can walk outside in Arena, you can't walk from town to town - it's just endless random landscape in arena. Thought that was a bit misleading. Sorry, I didn't like the retrospective all that much, Corwin. It descibes the game nicely, but it doesn't touch much on what you like or dislike about the game and it's concepts, nor do you talk much about it's place in the grand scheme of RPG development, where it inoovated, etc. Both should be part of a good retrospective, I think.

[Darkmoon]

I get the impression the you haven't played the game, when it was released. The retrospective is quite negative and written as if you would compare the game to modern RPGs.
I remember when I bought Arena in 1994. When I escaped from th first dungeon the vast landscape really impressed me, I never saw such a huge world in any RPG before. You could walk for hours and finde some small villages or caves etc. It was really great.
The cities were big and made me feel like visiting a real city and not just a small town as in other RPGs.
Maybe the people all looked the same, but this was 1994 and it was VGA!
I have very fond memories of this game...

[Corwin]

Darkmoon, I not only played the game and finished it when it first came out, I replayed it for my retrospective!! Ghan, we differ on what we include in retro's. To be honest, I can't remember what was truly innovative in the game. From memory, much was derivative ie my reference to Ultima Underworld which WAS innovative. I suppose it's personal preference and readers tastes. If people want other things in a retro, then let them say so in the forums and we'll try to oblige. This is the first one I've written!! :)

[txa1265]

I still haven't played the game, and forgot that they released it for free download ... now I'll have to give it a try :)

[darghan]

I still haven't played the game, and forgot that they released it for free download ... now I'll have to give it a try :)
well if you havent played it then you have missed on a true cultural experience :D
I think that even after all those years you will like the game
I have it installed on my computer and seldom playing it

[kalniel]

Ghan is right - you can't walk from town to town in Arena, it just randomly generates area to walk through and you don't actually get anywhere. You have to fast travel to go to specific places.

Daggerfall is set in the bay, rather than the whole of Tamriel, so you get a couple of provinces. The difference is you *can* walk between places properly in Daggerfall, however it takes an absolute age so you might as well fast travel.

[xSamhainx]

Couldn't stomach Daggerfall when I tried it a year ago for several hours, so I know that I couldn't make it thru this one!

Gimme Morrowind or nothing!

[Lord Alex]

Darkmoon, I not only played the game and finished it when it first came out, I replayed it for my retrospective!! Ghan, we differ on what we include in retro's. To be honest, I can't remember what was truly innovative in the game. From memory, much was derivative ie my reference to Ultima Underworld which WAS innovative. I suppose it's personal preference and readers tastes. If people want other things in a retro, then let them say so in the forums and we'll try to oblige. This is the first one I've written!! :)

Heh Corwin,

I thought you summed things up nicely and it did capture a bit of that retro feel that is giving me the (rather slight) hankering to re-install and replay Arena from the beginning... and then Daggerfall... and then Morrowind... and then "Shivering Isles." ;)

I agree with the poster, though, that it might help in future retrospectives to highlight Arena's place within the overall history of computer RPGs. I agree that it pulled liberally from "Ultima Underworld," but it can still be named one of the progenitors for the modern stream of first-person Action/RPGs, like Deus Ex 1/2, Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, Hellgate London, and the ever-popular Oblivion. In fact, with the success, if Oblivion I think we're about to see a lot more "copy-cat" games in the next few years... which is both good and bad (depending on how much you like that style).

I suspect true isometric will only appear in indie games from now on, which is a shame.... :(

[Dhruin]

Thanks for the comments, GhanBuriGhan. I can't add much to this discussion because I didn't like either Arena or Daggerfall (and therefore didn't play much of them) but I appreciate your comments on retrospectives in general.

[araczynski]

sad to report that i'm actually currently selling my original copies of daggerfall and arena deluxe on ebay right now :( two games way ahead of their time, perhaps even still ahead of anything available today.

[Moriendor]

sad to report that i'm actually currently selling my original copies of daggerfall and arena deluxe on ebay right now :( two games way ahead of their time, perhaps even still ahead of anything available today.

Ummm... OK. Just stay calm and please take these pills, Sir. Professional help will be arriving any moment now :biggrin: .

*slowly backs away from araczynski, reaching for the crucifix and the bible in his coat pocket*

[Relayer]

" first you could answer a series of questions (similar to the Ultima games) and be told which class to select based on your answers, (there’s a similar system used in Oblivion, so its heritage runs true)"

I remember this was in Morrowind as well, at the census office.

[zakhal]

I played through arena year ago with boosted version dosbox. It was fun especially the handmade main quest dungeons which were easily better than the ones in daggerfall. I had an elemental warrior which worked quite well.

[Jaz]

Daggerfall is set in the bay, rather than the whole of Tamriel, so you get a couple of provinces. The difference is you *can* walk between places properly in Daggerfall, however it takes an absolute age so you might as well fast travel.
...and avoid the wilderness encounters.

[GhanBuriGhan]

Darkmoon, I not only played the game and finished it when it first came out, I replayed it for my retrospective!! Ghan, we differ on what we include in retro's. To be honest, I can't remember what was truly innovative in the game. From memory, much was derivative ie my reference to Ultima Underworld which WAS innovative. I suppose it's personal preference and readers tastes. If people want other things in a retro, then let them say so in the forums and we'll try to oblige. This is the first one I've written!! :)


Don't take it to heart, I appreciate any effort to bring the old games back into the spotlight. It's just my feedback as to what I would have expected, a slightly more historical perspective, so to speak. Since I gathered your gaming experience goes way back, (probably making you slightly older than your avatar :) ), I hope you will write more retrospectives in the future.

[Bagend]

Yes I haven't played Arena yet and was trying to get a retro of what was non-linear from it as you said all quests were simple. But do they affect the game world much more then say Oblivion? I dont mind if them being simple as long as the gameworld is affected. I think that's a trademark of the TES series. Simple quests yet they change the game allot.
I wanted some stuff about the dungeons that are said to be good from the comments. Compare that to Oblivion's static banal dungeons.

"The artifact quests and the ‘main’ quest are a little different, but I’ll leave you to discover them on your own."
??? Were they good ???

Thanks

[Jaz]

The quests were 'go tho this dungeon to retrieve a map' and then 'go to this new dungeon (we now have the map, you know) and retrieve a part of the artefact'... nothing special. The atmosphere in dungeons was what made the game special for me.
IIRC the quests didn't change the game world any more than those of Oblivion did. Nobody reacted differently to you... unless you count the NPCs who gave you hints about the next part of the main quest.
Which reminds me... I never turned down a main quest giver's request. What would have happened if...?

What I remember best: the Liches, and the panic my invisible, fireball-toting, wall-destroying sneaker felt when she heard their howl in the distance (similar to the Daggerfall vampires). Being able to bomb my way through dungeon walls was paramount for my virtual survival.

[CrazyIrish]

Arena was quite revolutionary but also evolutionary. Many games before Arena made me feel like I was in a grand story. Arena made me feel like I was in another world. One where I got to choose my own level of involvement. Daggerfall did the same on an even grander scale. I don't think any game since has managed to surpass or even equal the first 2 elder scrolls games in that respect.

Also, how many games have you played where your incredibly powerful Master Rogue with +32 Boots of Speed is totally confounded by a 6 foot wall? Sneaking into a city at night by climbing walls in Daggerfall for the first time was awesome. And yes I know the mechanic exists in a very few other games. But they all suck :)

[Corwin]

I might do a retro on DF later this year; I'm currently re-playing it. While some things annoy me (you'll have to wait to find out :) ) many aspects are better than either MW, or Ob!!

[KasperFauerby]

Arena and Daggerfall were both quite cool games, especially at the time when they first came out. But one has to keep in mind that a lot of time has passed since they were released, and personally I think it begins to show. They might have appeared very complex when they were released, but I don't think Arena or Daggerfall is even *as* complex as the latest installment, Oblivion (and to be honest, it would also be very strange if it was). I think one has to be quite the old-school gamer or a huge fan of the series to be able to play and enjoy Arena today. I'm replaying Daggerfall a bit right now (since DosBox 0.7 runs it so well :) It is definitely absolutely *huge* (anyone knows exactly how many cities/dungeons? Seems like several thousands), but as a result it's also very generic. One particular game mechanic that I liked better in DF than in any of the sequels were how you had to keep working for a guild to maintain your status in it, and how you had to work a bit to gain access to the useful features like spell crafting etc in the mage guild. In MW and O it seems like you have instant access to all the cool stuff..

[Corwin]

Actually, the plotting in DF is FAR more complex than in either MW (very weak) or Ob ( generic)!! It has a great deal of political double dealing and intrigue, which was sadly lacking (in any original way) from the later games. Yes, the dungeons, quests, and cities (not to mention the hopeless NPC's) are VERY repetative ( a deliberate design choice), but the storytelling and RP opportunities are superb!!

[_elander_]

I might do a retro on DF later this year; I'm currently re-playing it.

I'm looking forward to read it. Oh and i would advise you to use the cheat keys to orient yourself inside big dungeons. The main-quest dungeons are cool but all the others were randomly generated by the thousands and are not very cool. With the cheat keys activated pressing [ and ] will teleport you to possible locations where quest items and people that were assigned to your quest. Mark/recall at the entrance always helps.

Unfortunately Daggerfall, even with the latest patch had some buggy quests. If you have a problem with one of the quests you can read the quest source here:
http://institute.no.sapo.pt/q/quests.html

I think this was taken svatopluk site but don't recall:
http://www.svatopluk.com/

Or check uesp:
www.uesp.net

While some things annoy me (you'll have to wait to find out :) ) many aspects are better than either MW, or Ob!!

Morrowind and Oblivion gameplay is so different than Daggerfall. This game plays like a 3d rogue with a main plot and Morrowind tried to use the Ultima 7 model with it's sandbox world. Morrowind wasn't such a bad game.

[_elander_]

It is definitely absolutely *huge* (anyone knows exactly how many cities/dungeons? Seems like several thousands), but as a result it's also very generic.

There are around 1000 dungeons in Daggerfall. They were procedurally generated so they look generic. The way Daggerfall works with quests; people, places and items are only linked to a quest when the player accepts a quest. So we can repeat the same quest always with a different dungeon to loot or houses to rob. It works like playing a rogue but dungeons are pre-generated and packed into a big .bsa file to be selected randomly when a quest is chosen.

[kalniel]

DF is still for me the best RPG.

Despite the flaws, the setting was amazing and I loved the intrigue and plot - even if I wasn't used to even the slight non-linearity. The politics hinted at great things, even if it wasn't quite implemented all that well. That's kind of the story for DF really - hints at lots of greatness, not always implemented all that well. But with imagination it was peerless.

[Corwin]

Thanks for the comments elander, but how do you activate those cheat keys? The most frustrating part of the game for me both when I first played it and now, was getting a quest to find blood, or wrappings, etc in say 6 days and clearing level after level of huge dungeons, having to rest after tough battles and then running out of time and failing the quest. I simply don't accept those anymore, I'd much rather guard something/one, cast sleep, or kill an Imp!! :)

[_elander_]

If you are trying to raise in rank for a guild you can only do it once per month no mater how many quests you do for them as long as you have the skills and a positive reputation with the law for the guilds this applies. When you talk to the guy in the guild about promotion they give you a speech about power and responsibility and how it takes time for a guild member to be respected and stuff like that, meaning not enough time has passed. If you don't have the skills or the reputation to raise they will give an appropriate feedback message. This dialog isn't in the quest source but in a huge file called text.rsc . I will convert it to readable html one of these days. It's contents are amusing.

To activate cheats add the last line "cheatmode 1" to your Z.cfg file like this:


type dfall_huge
path c:\dagger\arena2\
pathcd c:\dagger\arena2\
fadecolor 0
mapfile d
rendergame 1
user 1
startMap 179
region 17
helmet 0
maxSpeed 200
controls betaplyr.dat
maps mapsave.sav
cheatmode 1


These are the most useful cheat codes:


Ctrl-F4 Invincibility
Alt-F11 Returns you to the last place you were standing
Ctrl-F1 Shows all map locations
[ and ] Takes you to key dungeon locations
- Raises your reputation with everyone
+ Raises all stats by 1
1 Move at six times normal speed


Sometimes we get teleported right on top of the foe we have to kill so in these case (it can be a ancient lich or vampire) turning on invencibility before teleporting is good.

[Corwin]

Thanks, for that, were you involved with DF originally, or just a devoted fan?

[Jaz]

Alt F11 was so good to have when you dropped through a hole in the world :).

[Corwin]

Ctrl-f4 doesn't seem to work for me!! I found out the hard way!! :)

[_elander_]

"Thanks, for that, were you involved with DF originally, or just a devoted fan?"

Just an old fan. Daggerfall used to have a moding community once. The quest src was extracted with a dos tool made by a linux hacker that was also used to mod new quests for the game. It must still be available somewhere in one of the sites i linked.

"Ctrl-f4 doesn't seem to work for me!! I found out the hard way!!"

Dosbox usually grabs the Ctrl-F? keys. There must be a way to remap Dosbox keys to something else.