Shocking truth about copy protection?

[Acleacius]

Hey I just found out and didn't see it posted here but if you remove your Dvd after your first loaded game, then make a New Savegame without the Dvd, Load Times are about 5 x faster. :yay: ;)
Any saves you make without the Dvd in the Drive will load at super sonic speeds, well faster anyway. :P

Turns out that copy protection is having a major effect on the game, apparently JoWood makes up there own protection and apparently does NOT test it. :(



Btw really love the new site, well with the Dark skin. :)

[Corwin]

Thanks for that, I'll give it a try later today and hopefully confirm this!!

[Acleacius]

Looks like only 1 out of 7 had no effect, so odds are good, ;)
I actually got this off the Official Tech Support, since so many problems I though I would see how they are handling all these problems at JoWood.
http://forum.jowood.com/showthread.php?t=125993

[Gorath]

Interesting ... but not surprising. Morrowind had a similar issue.
I wonder how long that thread survives in the JoWooD forum.

[Acleacius]

Btw I was kidding alittle with the 5x faster, as you can see in the orginal thread.
On the load of a Hardsave it no longer stalls near the picture of the FireStorm till the one of the Spapper in the water, so it pickup about 40% and on Quicksave about 25%.

[darklord]

Hmm so we need a no DVD patch... Can't they just make copy protection that doesn't screw things up?

Daniel.

[Corwin]

It definitely does work, I can attest to that!! :)

[Uriziel]

It is sad that TAGES not only does'nt work, but it inferes with the gameplay. Nice going Jowood :/

You can download the german version, install and update it, copy over the english speech pak, and play the game. There is a little more to it than that, but not much. I don't condone piracy, so I'll not say exactly how it is done, but my point is that TAGES is not protecting anything, and is hurting gameplay.

[Moriendor]

Definitely does not work for me with the German patched version of the game. Took out the DVD after the game had loaded up the first time and couldn't tell a difference in loading times or quicksaving times at all so I doubt it very much that copy protection has anything to do with it.

But then again, I also haven't had any audible or visible drive activity on saving/loading anyway, even if the DVD was in the drive (Plextor PX-130A) so to be honest, I'm not sure what people are talking about who are suggesting that the game is performing multiple CD/DVD checks after start-up or on every save/load even *shrug*.

Maybe those peeps should deactivate Daemon Tools or Alcohol 120% or any other mounting tools that could be interfering with drive activity(?) - Or maybe do the opposite and mount some devices via Daemon Tools because I have several mounted drives myself (w/o letting Daemon Tools run in the background though... I have checked "Leave emulating options enabled" so Daemon Tools itself doesn't need to be running).

Edit: I doubt that this has anything to do with it but during the install, the game adds two items to your system start-up stuff (Run -> msconfig) which are "isuspm" and "issch". Both are Installshield services. If your game works fine after installation and patching, I'd recommend to disable those start-up items since they might be messing with the drives as well. Whatever the hell they are doing, they are definitely not needed in any case so kick them out :) .

Edit #2: While you're at it (msconfig), also check the 'Services' tab and then check 'Hide all MS services' to get a better view of 3rd party services. If there is a 'SecuROM User Access Service (V7)' listed, then uncheck the entry because it might be that different copy protections don't get along too well. The service is not really needed either even if you have a SecuROM protected game installed. If any other game gives you trouble about missing the CD/DVD then just reactivate the service as needed.

[mute]

I can also conform no changes in load time for me. I haven't had to big problem with it before, either.

Same time with as without DVD. Atleast what my eye tells me.

And I also can not see any acitiviy to my dvd during load/save of game. So its not something that happened to everyone.

[Moriendor]

Just tested it once more. The DVD is checked twice. Once when you start up the game and then another time when the game *initially* loads up (the long 2 minute+ load the first time you load the game). If you don't have the DVD in the drive at that point (first load), the game just won't load at all.

However, on quicksaving and regular or quick loading, there is no DVD check as far as I can tell so -once again- I doubt very much that removing the DVD makes any difference and -yes- I have even tried with a "fresh" save when the DVD was removed to make sure that no left-over stuff from save games with the DVD in the drive could interfere. Would have to time it with a stopwatch to be 100% sure, of course, but there sure isn't a tangible difference. Conclusion: I call BS on any claims that the copy protection is messing with people's drives or that it has any effect on save/load times :D .

[Acleacius]

We are talking about "while ingame" not initial load times, right?
You must make the Saves without the Dvd in the drive, then while reloading ingame the load times are shortened?
O'well I guess not everyone will get benifit.
Maybe you system is so very fast already, you can't tell the difference. ;)

[r3dshift]

Über (and game experience-runining, mostly) protection or not, it's been cracked. 6 days after official release. That's SIX days.
So let me raise the question: was it worth ruining the gaming experience for all the people who actually bought the product by employing some crappy protection module that not only slows the game down but also causes major problems? Thought not. Stupid, ignorant PB and JoWood, is what I say. Should have come out with a polished game - albeit later - with zero protection instead, á lá Bethesda, and thousands would have bought it, just like in the case of Oblivion. As things stand now, this franchise is doomed to face yet another downfall. What a waste.

[Moriendor]

We are talking about "while ingame" not initial load times, right?
You must make the Saves without the Dvd in the drive, then while reloading ingame the load times are shortened?
O'well I guess not everyone will get benifit.
Maybe you system is so very fast already, you can't tell the difference. ;)

Tried all combinations with and without DVD and no, there was no change in loading times at all (2GB RAM machine). As I said, I doubt that the DVD is even getting touched for the "while ingame" loads or saves whether quick or regular. My DVD drive shows zero activity after the two checks at the game's start and initial load, respectively, are done.

[Moriendor]

...by employing some crappy protection module that not only slows the game down but also causes major problems?

Why would you say that? Do you have proof for these claims? How exactly does the copy protection slow the game down and what major problems does it cause? A bullet point list will do. Thanks :) .

[Dhruin]

Six days is enough for them to #1 in Germany and #4 in the UK...that's a damn good lead over some games that are cracked before they even ship.

I'm no fan over-zealous copy protection (and I haven't actually noticed anything with G3) but from a commercial point of view, this case has been a success.

[Dagar]

It's true Moriendor.
People who bought the game and are now using the NO DVD crack are seeing huge performance gains. Believe it or not the Tages Api, Xprot and custom system really, really are causing many issues for plenty of people.
If you bought the game as I have, you don't deserve to be treated like you are a pirate right out of the gate and be hindered by a crippling protection system.

[Moriendor]

It's true Moriendor.
People who bought the game and are now using the NO DVD crack are seeing huge performance gains.

That's what they say. Aside from a potentially skewed subjective view (read: people imagining performance gains), we have to take into account that there are plenty of kiddies who just want to boast about their "leet warez underground skillz" by posting that they have obtained a working no DVD crack so they can be the haves and the other kiddies the have nots. These reports are rating very low on the credibility meter IMHO ;) but I'm going to download that crack and test this myself tomorrow. We shall see :) .

Don't get me wrong. I'm not pro-copy protection. I'm just against rather unfounded claims that the copy protection (be it Tages or StarForce, though I'm actually boycotting StarForce myself because of what they did to Stardock by posting those Torrent links to Gal Civ 2) is messing with people's systems or doing this or doing that. Most of that is grade A bullshit. Why aren't there 1000s of people running around with the $10,000 from the StarForce peeps who offered that sum to anyone who can prove that their hardware was negatively affected by StarForce? Right. No one can prove it. People just repeat the stupid bullshit that they read other places without even having the slightest bit of a clue. Just like people keep bitching about MS or McDonald's but still they all got Windows and they all eat fast food. It's just plain dumb drivel based on hearsay most of the time.

I used to work for a system builder and we also had a repair center for our own PCs and 3rd party brands as well. From my own experience, I can tell you that 95%+ of the systems that our tech guys serviced were screwed up in one way or another. Paranoid idiots who refuse to install SP2 or refuse to download any Windows updates at all, people with 81218787623 viruses and trojans across all drives, false BIOS settings, wrong master/slave settings for drives, wrong jumper settings, thermal paste smeared across the entire board, CPU cooler put on backwards, the list goes on and on.
It's just generally very doubtful when someone complains about issues with a game that the copy protection is at fault. I play tons of original games and have never had a single problem with copy protection in years of gaming (except for the occasional failed original media check but it always worked after a few tries). Plain luck? I don't think so. Gothic III would be the first game that I come across that would benefit from a no-DVD crack as far as the actual game is concerned and not just the initial start-up procedure.
We shall see. I'll be back with numbers and will very gladly eat my words if the no-DVD crack gives me a performance boost :) .

[Moriendor]

First impressions from the no-DVD crack before the solid numbers will be posted tomorrow: No change as expected (except that you do indeed not need to have the DVD in the drive... d'oh... :D ). Still the same save/loading times and I couldn't tell a difference in performance either. And -yes- I did make a "fresh" save with the cracked version and reload that one. Solid numbers (comparison of regular patched EXE vs cracked EXE) coming tomorrow.

[Dagar]

I agree that there are plenty of people who do not know how to run and/or maintain a system properly, remove un-needed system hogging services, optimize the startup, etc. Add to that all of the different hardware configurations out there and it becomes impossible for a developer to check their code on all possibilites. Copy protections have vastly different effects on different hardware configurations so yours may be ok but don't write off other people because they are having problems with different configurations.

Tages in FACT has been known to cause frame-rate problems in other games (see Darkstar One).

[Acleacius]

Dhruin
"Six days is enough for them to #1 in Germany and #4 in the UK...that's a damn good lead over some games that are cracked before they even ship."

I don't disagree with anything you said and I did want to add; I personally see no reason why G3 wouldn't be at those positions with or without copy protections.
Actually my thought is the reason JoWood has damaged sales more than a cracked Nocd, is they constantly ship buggy titles.
Now I don't believe JoWood is the only one, but part of the reason they are in/were in the little trouble they are in, they refuse to allow 3 more months to actually complete the game.
This would have gotten them nothing but "well deserved rave reviews" more than paying for the extra 3 months, plus boosted sales even further.
A perfect example is Oblivion which sold tons more and got tons more good reviews than it deserved.
It's a good game than due to Mods is a behemoth and not only is G3 a better game [from what I have played] it is a AAA title waiting for JoWood to stop tripping allover themselves, seemly and constantly making bad decisions.
PB and G3 deserve better treatment and even if this means staying with JoWood, JoWood needs to get there shit strait.

[Dhruin]

I don't follow JoWood as closely as others, so Gorath can come after and correct me. I believe JoWood has some rights/ownership of the Gothic IP. If so, they will always be there unless they sell.

While I agree the Gothic series deserves better, JoWood has been close to bankruptcy a number of times and Piranha Bytes had around a year's extension (or thereabouts). It might be easy to say "just wait 3 months", but if they are completely out of cash - they're going to ship. I don't know that's the case, but it's a genuine possibility.

Polish takes cash, time and/or some luck. I agree buggy products cause more damage than piracy, but polish might take an undetermined amount of time and money to fix while a copy-protection license is a known cost. I'm not a supporter of intrusive CP but there really is a reason every publisher uses something.

Someone mentioned being treated like a criminal...every DVD and every console game has protection - few people complain about that.

[Moriendor]

OK, back with the numbers :) . I rebooted the machine between the two tests with the original game and the DVD in the drive and the cracked game with no DVD in the drive.

System specs:
- AMD Athlon XP 3200+
- 2048MB RAM PC-3200
- nVidia GeForce 7800GS (91.47 ForceWare)
- WD 80GB HD (8MB cache)
- Plextor PA-130 DVD drive

Game settings:
- 1280x1024 @ 60Hz (TFT)
- All sliders + details including shadows on max with the exception of disabled depth of field blur (only using bloom) and anisotropic filtering reduced to 2x.

Results with no-DVD crack installed (cracked EXE, game.dll and engine.dll) are on the left and colored green while results with the regular game are colored in blue.

- From starting the game to the menu: 29s vs 44s (no big surprise because of the initial DVD check)

- Loading up the game for the 1st time: 1:47m vs 1:57m (no big surprise because this is the 2nd time the DVD is checked)

- Quick save: 10s vs 10s (note that the very first quick save with the uncracked game took 19s... not sure if this was because of loading activity in the background or what caused this... every time after that it took between 9s and 10s so it's all the same with crack or without)

- Quick load: 43s vs 44s (note that the first quick load took 47s so there might be a similar behavior as with the 1st save or it might have just been a random anomaly... who knows)

- Performance (min/max/average FPS with FRAPS taken by running from Kap Dun to Ardea without sprinting - the benchmark was in both cases only activated after I ran the distance once prior to activating benchmark mode to make sure that everything was resource cached):
- Min FPS: 10 FPS vs 2 FPS
- Max FPS: 39 FPS vs 47 FPS
- Average FPS: 23.907 FPS vs 22.729 FPS
- Duration of benchmark: 202029ms vs 207441ms (OMG... TAGES causes you to run slower!!!!1111 :D ) - for the maths impaired that's 3:22m vs 3:27m.

Conclusion: No difference with the DVD crack except for the initial loading when the DVD is checked. There. I want my cookie now :D .

[Arhu]

Fastfood is still bad and so is copy protection. :p

Oh, but you get an A for effort. ;)

[KasperFauerby]

Hurray! Finally someone with sensible arguments and views on copy protection schemes! (Moriendor if anyone should be in doubt). I'm also personally sick and tired of all these kiddies that throw rumors around regarding this and that system. Especially StarForce has been treated quite unfairly with regards to how "damaging" it is to the users systems! It's been said so many times now that many users has accepted it as facts (and even certain media)!

So here are some facts from a professional game programmer (although I'm sure many will refuse to believe me):

Some copy protection systems actually makes changes to the compiled code in addition to doing disc checks. They can go in and obfuscate/encrypt a certain part of the compiled code to make it depend on the original disc being in the drive. They do this because otherwise it is too easy for the crackers to crack the game :)

It is true that the obfuscated code will run slower because of the copy protection!

However, those systems I've seen will allow the programmers to choose which parts of the code that should be encrypted by the copy protection system. So typically they will select a piece of code that is 1) Critical for the game to run (so the crackers can't just change the exe to skip that code) and 2) won't be run very often in a game frame (so that it will *not* affect overall performance of the game!).

So in theory a copy protection system can slow down the game - but only if it is implemented badly by the game programmers :)

EDIT: Just wanted to add the disclaimer that TAGES is not a system I've been using myself, so of course I cannot say for sure that the above applies to that particular system. My points are intended to be more general, and I would *assume* that they apply to TAGES aswell..

[Acleacius]

Moriendor are you using German version maybe it could be different version from the English?
I believe you when you say on your system it doesnt have any effect, thats fine but you can't posssibly be suggesting other person's systems are Not being effected.
You can test your system all day long and inside out you will never get any info on how other's machines are effected.

KasperFauerby
"I'm also personally sick and tired of all these kiddies that throw rumors around regarding this and that system"
If this is directed at me, due to the 5x times and super sonic joke, with emote I might add, well maybe your days as a programmer have left you without a sence of humor(?). :)

"Especially StarForce has been treated quite unfairly with regards to how "damaging" it is to the users systems! It's been said so many times now that many users has accepted it as facts (and even certain media)!"
Your joking right? Yet I see no emote, maybe your a plant or insane? ;)
You must be a plant from starforce that is still sore about being found out to be proven malware.
Hell, even on the starforce offiicial forums they admit to lying about the independent company review was really storforce front company.
Media, hell it was starforce that was trying to use the media against gamers to lie about its malware and the truth was discovered over about two years(3?) worth of complaints of problems and damge to systems which you seem to have no remorse or compassion about.

During this years it was the pubs and devs (probably lied to by starforce hacks) were ofuscating the truth about harmful effects and then on about year 3, some cracker breaks your code proving the damge potiential.

This spread like wild fire due to gamers speaking up and all the while starforce getting their lawyer to threaten and lie about websites and game journalist that ever questioned starforce.

This is like some abusive relationship where you read about some guy beating up his girlfriend for years then she finally gets enough support and courage to report him, he blames her, very sick.

Viking_Berserker
You are proabably correct about the payoffs or at least Ofuscated payoffs like nice lunches, invites or trips since the sites you mentioned are owned by scaife (scourge? ;) ).

"Oh and Oblivion is worse then Gothic"
Well in some respects G3 has serious problems, especially the forced Bloom and some shader issues which casue crashing also.
Including many unfinished areas and the very erratic AI, the most glaring is the gobblin cave on the east shore line near the first town, just before the barrier and opposite direction of the big cave under Cape Dun with the surprise(S!) at the bottom. ;)
The only thing in Oblivion I am envious of for Gothic is the editor.
What could be added with one of those, Damn a person can only dream. ;)