Star Wars: TOR Beta

[Thrasher]

I just got invited to use a key, but the site login and new user creation website was so annoying, I have no patience for this kind of crappy software. It couldn't connect to EA Origins, it wouldn't accept numbers in the username. yadayadayadaya...

Anyone else try it out?

[wolfgrimdark]

I have been in the Beta for over a month and played a couple of characters up to 8-10 levels.

Haven't gotten much farther than that as I am still enjoying Rift and then along came Skyrim and that pretty much has all my focus right now.

Its a good game but lacks pizzaz. Story is its strong suit the rest is just more of the same IMO. Course if you love the theme/setting it would help. I tend to prefer fantasy or something like Secret World.

Still I have to say I enjoyed the stories and the companions sounds interesting. Worth the $60 even if I only play it for the initial stories. But ... overall ... can't get excited about it.

[wolfing]

it's all about the storylines. If you're the type that skips the story to just go kill the 10 rats, then TOR is not the game for you. TOR's strong point is the storylines. 8 classes, 8 stories. If you liked KotoR then you're more likely to like this game.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

This is why I hope they'd do an offline version one day, too.
But I fear that this won't happn.

By the way, the main Sith Lord is going to be released as a figure, too, and as a small statue, if I recall this correctly.

[azarhal]

I just got invited to use a key, but the site login and new user creation website was so annoying, I have no patience for this kind of crappy software. It couldn't connect to EA Origins, it wouldn't accept numbers in the username. yadayadayadaya…

Anyone else try it out?

You need to create a SWTOR website account and redeem the code there. You probably will have to go through all the security steps too.

I played the last beta weekend. It's MMO + Mass Effect + KoTOR, i.e. Mass Effect cutscene system + the KoTOR Star Wars style with a MMO under the hood. It really feel like a BioWare game, except that the game world is much more open.

[Maylander]

I got an email saying I got into the beta, but no info yet on how or when. The email said I'll get another email with more info. Still waiting.

[wolfing]

oh by the way, NDA is lifted

[hishadow]

I'll be playtesting tonight. Keeping fingers crossed it isn't a complete letdown.

[Zloth]

Keep your fingers crossed that you can even get in! This is definitely a stress test. They're dinking around with how many people can get into a server to see what it takes to crash it. The auction system has been cut WAY back, too. There used to be access on every planet except the starter planet.

[Thaurin]

I have fond memories of getting into WoW beta. I'd really like to beta this, but I don't have hope of ever getting a key... I guess I'll see it when it comes out.

[hishadow]

Hrmp… they seem to be really off on the numer of servers required. Little hope of re-entering after a crash and couldn't recover after that. A bit lackluster experience up and including character creation. Good thing, my expectations has been drastically reduced. :D Judging by this beta weekend, I think you can safely postpone playing this game 4-6 weeks after release.

I also noticed the instacing of planets was in effect. 4 dulications of the starter planet for my class.

[DArtagnan]

Tried this for 6-8 hours.

It's extremely derivative, and though the voice-over and quest presentation does help - the game very quickly turns overly familiar.

That said, it does handle the WoW formula with skill - and it's clearly a quality product.

But it doesn't feel like KotOR to me at all. Much more like a traditional MMO with a new dressing on it.

After this beta, I'm now pretty sure I'm not going to bother with this one.

[Zloth]

I also noticed the instacing of planets was in effect. 4 dulications of the starter planet for my class.
They handle it pretty well, though. If your team lead isn't in the same instance you get to switch over. I had this happen mid-battle and it was even polite enough to let me finish and loot before sending me over!

DArtagnan, doesn't feel like KotOR how? I mean beyond the obvious since one is an RPG and one's a MMORPG.

[DArtagnan]

DArtagnan, doesn't feel like KotOR how? I mean beyond the obvious since one is an RPG and one's a MMORPG.

Well, KotOR made everything seem important and the player special, which is an illusion that I don't think SWTOR can manage for me. Yes, they try - and the writing is decent enough and definitely wants to make you the hero. But it's so forced right in the middle of an MMO with hundreds of players there.

When you see dozens of other players going through the same thing - even if the cutscenes/phases are for yourself only - it just doesn't work for me.

It also lacks the kind of flexible character system you'll find in a singleplayer cRPG - where you're free to tailor you character into whatever role you want. SWTOR - being an MMO - has to restrict you a lot more, and give you a pre-packaged set of abilities and skills. Yes, there's a talent tree - but it's obviously meant to be very balanced and as such it will be relatively narrow in terms of changing roles.

It also can't give you items that aren't suited for your level - so you know that no matter what reward you find, it will be something that will be replaced soon. That kind of rhythm is a staple of the genre, and it works if you can manage to forget it - or remain unaware of it. I'm not good at that, sadly.

But those things I could deal with, they're not really all that bad. It's something to be expected, even if I had hoped they'd be able to hide them more.

But they haven't been able to do that, because of what I consider the biggest issue with the game right now.

It's so….. STALE. I don't know how to describe it. But the worlds seem so static and even though you will face mobs on patrol, you won't find anything in the way of critters or natural life. You won't see day become night, and you won't see the weather change. The animations are very well made, but somehow - they feel artificial to me. The cutscenes are lacking in that same way, because it's always a few people talking with little else happening. It's strange how you engage in conversation, and the rest of the world rests while you talk.

The worlds I've seen, so far, have all been good looking in a technical sense. But they lack flavor and life. It's like they've been made without passion and without an artistic cohesive vision behind them. WoW - while technically slightly behind it - has infinitely more flavor and style in its zone design.

The combat rhythm is also off. The global cooldown is about half a second too slow. So, I spent most of my time clicking abilities that weren't ready yet - having a hard time adjusting to that last half a second. You have plenty of toys, ironically, but they're all bound by this cooldown. It doesn't flow as well as I'd expected - but I've only played a single class to 10th level (Jedi Sentinel). Not sure how the other classes work yet. But I intend to try something different today.

That said, I'm only 10 hours in - and I've only seen 4-5 worlds so far. It could be I was not in the right mood, or that I'm overly harsh.

But that's unfortunately my first impression of the game.

Obviously, it doesn't help that I played Skyrim for 65 hours just before getting to this one :)

[DArtagnan]

Played a Jedi Shadow to level 10 now…

I like the class more, but not the game.

I'm afraid the game isn't going to win me over like I'd hoped. I was planning to make it my christmas game.

Oh well, there are other strong titles on the horizon - and I guess GW2 will be my next MMO, while I wait for ArcheAge.

Not that I've given up on this yet, I just don't believe in it anymore.

[txa1265]

I'm not a big MMO fan to begin with, so this was just a fun little lark for the last couple of months ... but it did a few things:
- Reminded me that I am NOT a MMO fan
- Convinced me I would not pay for this. I might try it again on Free-to-Play when it hits there in a year or so.
- Also reminds me that a 'kinda' story stapled to me-too MMO mechanics, even when attached to something from Bioware and set in one of my two favorite worlds - Star Wars - just isn't enough.
- I felt like even the story could have been spit out of the 'Bioware Cliche Machine' at times.

[fadedc]

I had originally planned to pick this game up to take a break from WoW, but from what people are saying I'd basically be taking a break from WoW in order to play WoW in space (only without all the kinks ironed out yet). I'm not sure how appealing that is.

[Thaurin]

Well, one of my biggest complaints about WoW was that the stories and the way they were told were just not grabbing me. I can't really see how people can be interested in the lore, especially in the later years. So some actual story reward would be a big step up for me.

[fadedc]

Certainly most people don't play WoW for the story. With that being said the latest expansions have been making progressive steps towards better and more involved story telling. Some of the zones in the latest expansion make a pretty good effort on story, but the problem is that MMOs are just not designed to tell great stories and after a certain point you've finished the story and then it's just back to collecting loot and killing bosses.

So it's definitely a plus if TOR has a better story, but a MMO story can only be so good and can only take the game so far.

[Thaurin]

Makes you wonder whether something like a dynamic story or maybe some C&C would be possible in an MMO. Imagine making choices in an instance that actually affect the outcome of that instance. That way not all instance runs would be exactly the same.

I don't know, I remember when MMOs were still something wonderful, which meant that I wanted to explore and find out what was at the end of the dungeon. I guess things change.

[fadedc]

You see some experimentation with C&C in WoW, but the hard part is making it have any meaningful difference. You can add options or random elements to an instance and it can make it more interesting because it's not always the same. You can also have different factions you choose between with their own sets of quests and rewards. None of this is bad, but in the end you can never have any real effect on the overall story and because of this people tend to choose based on what gives them the best loot or other bonus rather then any story reasons.

The world phasing you see in later WoW expansions is probably the strongest story telling elements, where you can burn down a city and it stays burned down or help build a city and it stays built and you can shop or get quests there (but someone who hasn't built the city still sees it as a vacant lot or whatever). Ultimately you still don't have any effect on the overall story but it helps create the illusion that you do a little more convicingly.

[DArtagnan]

Before going to bed last night, I tried playing it as they want you to play it. As in, letting the story take center stage and forget that I'm playing an MMO. I have a hard time doing that after all those years playing WoW - especially considering how close this game is to WoW in terms of mechanics and gameplay structure.

But, you know what, it actually worked for me - at least for a while.

I think if you're able to look past the blatant MMO quests-by-the-numbers design, and focus on the story behind those dreadful tasks - it might work better.

I don't know if I can keep that up, because I'm an impatient gamer - and for a story to take center stage (rather than gameplay), it has to be VERY VERY good. But I like the setting - and so far, the story has been OK. Nothing more, nothing less.

But I think that's clearly how they intend for the game to work.

[Thaurin]

Ultimately you still don't have any effect on the overall story but it helps create the illusion that you do a little more convicingly.

I'm not even thinking of an overarching storyline here. That must be much harder, because it is basically uninstanced. But what if there are short dungeon storylines with sort of choose-your-own-adventure branches that take you to different bits of story? These different bits of story could be further randomized one way or another, perhaps using some kind of procedurally-generated story?

Haha, I know it seems far-fetched, but this idea of a procedurally-generated story has been with me for some time and I don't think it is entirely impossible. Stories already do consist of bits and parts and finding a way to put them together in interesting ways by means of algorithms doesn't seem too much out there. Besides, stories in MMOs are already pretty much crap, anyway. This would make it less predictable crap. ;)

[DArtagnan]

The only way a procedurally-generated story would work, is if you couldn't detect it was procedurally-generated.

Sometimes it can work today, when a game does it without revealing its design. But I can't think of many where that has happened, and it only works 2-3 times as you come to understand how designers generated the stuff.

Until such a time where it can replace human-made stories, I don't think it's really worth the effort. Not unless it's just an addition to an already meaty story.

That said, the story isn't the problem in SWTOR. It's the quest-design. I don't know what they were thinking, I really don't.

Maybe it changes later in the game.... One can hope.

[txa1265]

Maybe it changes later in the game…. One can hope.

But given how close release is, and how fundamental so many of the issues all of us talk about are, you just wonder how many people will keep shelling out $15 a month to get to that point ... if it exists!

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Certainly most people don't play WoW for the story.

Which reminds me that I didn't find any story in DDO at all. Hints, yes, but they are as sparse as a needle in a haystack.

Except the beginner's island, which has a relatively good story-arc through the quests. But on the other hand I can't really tell, because until DDO I had absolutely no live experience with MMOs.

[DArtagnan]

But given how close release is, and how fundamental so many of the issues all of us talk about are, you just wonder how many people will keep shelling out $15 a month to get to that point … if it exists!

We have 10 million people playing WoW after 7 years, and I have a hard time imagining a more drone-like design than what we've seen it become over the years.

People are, apparently, mostly fine with being drones - as long as the perception is that there's a reason.

WoW, however, was fresh when it came out. Sure, it was extremely derivative - but they changed up a lot of core mechanics - and it was executed with immense skill and talent. It could have been so much more…. But that's in the past.

I'm finding it hard to guage the success of SWTOR - but my feeling is that it'll be the most successful MMO since WoW. But I don't think it will come close to the level of popularity WoW has had.

I think that time is past, and the genre in itself will have to change fundamentally.

But I find it particularly sad to think about all those years and all those resources poured into SWTOR - simply to make a carbon copy of WoW, sprinkled with a few minor innovations from other games of recent times.

The only thing they have that is their own is the voice-acting and quest presentation. That is significant, true, but I have no idea why they'd be so assured it would be enough to truly qualify for the position they want. I think it's very overconfident of them, and I'm FAR from convinced those two rather separate playstyles (singeplayer/linear story - and MP MMO) mix all that well.

It's almost as if they think the average MMO fan will respond favorably to having to sit through minutes-to-hours of dialogue for each and every single quest. Now, I'm generally a fan of story-oriented quests - and Bioware are good at what they do.

But smack in the middle of a 100% by-the-numbers-MMO?

Not at all sure about that.

If only it looked great, or had some kind of fresh take on gameplay. But it looks average and feels 7 years old in terms of the design.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

It will be more than just the average MMO fan.
Star Wars is one of the biggest franchises I know of.
And I guess there might soon be "MMO fans" lamenting about the flood of noobs going into SW:TOR ... Similar to AOL vs. Usenet ...

[hishadow]

Yea, Alrik. I'll be there mocking you!

[fadedc]

Something like that could have potential, although given that you run most dungeons multiple times, having an impact on the story for a dungeon isn't going to be so exciting when it just resets back to normal every time anyway. But certainly more variation and decision making would be extremely welcome in the average dungeon run/raid.

Something the next WoW expansion is trying is having scenarios instead of dungeons (though dungeons will be there too). Where instead of just going through a dungeon and killing everything your taking part in some kind of story. Unclear how it will work, but that may be more what you are talking about and it could add some of the variation in play that the game desperately needs right now. Though for me it's raiding that needs the biggest change/overhaul rather then dungeons.

I'm not even thinking of an overarching storyline here. That must be much harder, because it is basically uninstanced. But what if there are short dungeon storylines with sort of choose-your-own-adventure branches that take you to different bits of story? These different bits of story could be further randomized one way or another, perhaps using some kind of procedurally-generated story?

Haha, I know it seems far-fetched, but this idea of a procedurally-generated story has been with me for some time and I don't think it is entirely impossible. Stories already do consist of bits and parts and finding a way to put them together in interesting ways by means of algorithms doesn't seem too much out there. Besides, stories in MMOs are already pretty much crap, anyway. This would make it less predictable crap. ;)

[fadedc]

It's definitely true, although this isn't the first Star Wars MMO and casual gamers who tried and hated galaxies are probably much less likely to jump on board a new MMO even if it is (from the sound of it) much more casual friendly. But it is still an important point that it's not just WoW in space, it's WoW in Star Wars space. That alone will get it a lot more customers then it would otherwise have.

It will be more than just the average MMO fan.
Star Wars is one of the biggest franchises I know of.
And I guess there might soon be "MMO fans" lamenting about the flood of noobs going into SW:TOR … Similar to AOL vs. Usenet …

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Yea, Alrik. I'll be there mocking you!

I can mock myself as well, thank you. ;)

[Thrasher]

Sounds like I made the right decision to pass on the beta.

After all, why play an MMO now, when I've never done so before?

Gameplay and roleplay sounds horrible.

[Maylander]

Here are my impressions from the beta weekend.

The beta started Friday afternoon and ended this morning. I stopped playing at about 00:30 due to work.

I levelled the following characters during the beta weekend:
- Jedi Consular (Shadow), level 16
- Jedi Knight (Sentinel), level 11
- Sith Inquisitor (Sorcerer), level 12
- Trooper (Vanguard), level 10
- Bounty Hunter (Mercenary), level 10
- Imperial Agent, level 4ish - had to stop because the character kept getting stuck in the ground. Serious bug if this happens to anyone in the released version of the game.
- Jedi Knight, level 3 - had to make another one just to see if the choice when being assigned a Master had anything to say.

As far as impressions go, I'll do a simple pros and cons bit based on the characters above.

Pros
- Levelling: Levelling is both smoother and feels less grindy than WoW. The quests often make more sense, and you feel like you're going somewhere for an actual reason and not just to do a quest. It's no doubt possible to get level 20 in a single day, so 1-50 is probably significantly faster than reaching max level in WoW. I've heard 100-150 hours mentioned by players who have been in the beta for a while, and that number doesn't seem far off.
- Class story: Class stories overall work out quite well. You actually do feel somewhat unique, and the story driven zones tend to be of higher quality than other zones. They almost feel like playing a single player RPG.
- Choices: Probably the first MMO where I've seen choices involved that has something of an impact. I like it. I suppose it could get annoying in flash points when someone is being an ass, but considering they're repeatable you should be able to see the outcome you want after a few tries.
- Gameplay: The gameplay is overall very smooth, and a bit more captivating than that of WoW. Characters just feel a bit more alive and powerful during combat, with lots of nifty skills already at low levels. I suspect PvP balance will be a nightmare though, so let's hope all the re-tweaking we're bound to see in the coming months don't affect PvE too much. In WoW we tend to get shafted whenever PvP is re-balanced.
- Technical state: Very little lag, glitches, disconnects etc. If the release is as smooth as the stress test, it will be a very successful launch. I honestly don't expect that to happen though, as it sounds a bit too good to be true.
- Scope: I feared certain zones would feel small or limited due to walls and what not. That is simply not the case. The various worlds are massive, and quite varied. There seems to be a ton of content here, enough to keep us going for months already.
- Space ship: Owning a space ship is awesome. I love it.
- Companions: They rock. Period. They actually add almost as much to an MMO experience as they do to an RPG. Soloing is simply a lot more fun, and they tend to work out okay even in groups. Too bad they won't be available in every type of end game content.

Cons
- A few serious bugs: The overall technical state of the game is fantastic, but the few bugs I have seen have been very serious, for example the getting-stuck-all-the-time bug I experienced on my agent. It was unplayable. Also, Satele was 10 centimeters tall in most cut-scenes, which looked pretty crazy.
- Respawning quest items: Some quest items respawn too slowly when a zone is filled with people, such as the Horranth egg quest on Tythoon or the stolen crate quest on Coruscant.
- WoW factor: This will kill the game for many - it really is WoW in space, with a few extra features. If you don't like the basic gameplay of WoW, or simply want something new, this is not the game for you. Voice acting, story and companions won't make a difference if you simply don't like how WoW works.
- Lacking information: Did you see general chat? It was constantly spammed with questions, and not only by idiots who were too stupid to figure stuff out. Certain things were unclear, such as how to get an Advanced Class - it works out fairly well if you happen to be level 10 when you hit the first space station, but if you're not the quest won't even be available, so you'll run right past it and start doing Dromund Kaas/Coruscant without talents or an Advanced Class.
- Mirror classes: It does make balance a bit easier, so hopefully it means less tweaking, but it feels a bit silly to have almost identical abilities on classes that seem very different. If you think Bounty Hunter is unique, you should try out Trooper - they have the exact same abilities, but with different names and animations. Same thing with Sith Inquisitor and Jedi Consular. Talent trees might be more varied than abilities though, I honestly haven't checked.
- The "unique" factor: I've already mentioned how well class stories work. Due to the story, you actually feel somewhat unique in an MMO setting, which is pretty much unheard of. There is a drawback though. Unfortunately, the fact that you're not actually unique pops out a bit more in TOR than other MMOs whenever you're not doing story quests - all of a sudden, there's a whole bunch of Jedi Sentinels running around nearby with the exact same setup and companion. In WoW, this factor simply isn't present to the same degree, because you're not as invested in the story or the main character.
- Lack of customization: This is mainly an issue because of the above factor. Normally, it would've been fine, as it's entirely possible to make cool looking characters. However, the lack of customization combined with the emphasis on (not) being unique, means you're likely to notice all the people around you that look surprisingly similar.

All right, I think that's enough for now. I may update later on if I think of something else.

Overall, I'm still very excited about the release, and will no doubt play it quite a lot in the coming months.

[Thaurin]

Something like that could have potential, although given that you run most dungeons multiple times, having an impact on the story for a dungeon isn't going to be so exciting when it just resets back to normal every time anyway. But certainly more variation and decision making would be extremely welcome in the average dungeon run/raid.

So what if there would be multiple progress levels for every dungeon--say, you could be on progress level 2/5; and every time you'd run the dungeon, it's the same dungeon but with a slightly tweaked story. You'd see some real progress, maybe some different mobs/monsters and cut-scenes. Basically recycling most of the instance, but making it more fun and worthwhile to run through it 5 times. :) I'm just full of good MMO ideas, aren't I? I should apply for a job with Blizzard.

Something the next WoW expansion is trying is having scenarios instead of dungeons (though dungeons will be there too). Where instead of just going through a dungeon and killing everything your taking part in some kind of story. Unclear how it will work, but that may be more what you are talking about and it could add some of the variation in play that the game desperately needs right now.

Would that be alike what they had in Warhammer Online? I think they were called public quests, where a "scenario" would be in progress and you could join in and help reach the objectives of that scenario. They were actually pretty fun, but I hope Blizzard does something for a change.

[fadedc]

So what if there would be multiple progress levels for every dungeon—say, you could be on progress level 2/5; and every time you'd run the dungeon, it's the same dungeon but with a slightly tweaked story. You'd see some real progress, maybe some different mobs/monsters and cut-scenes. Basically recycling most of the instance, but making it more fun and worthwhile to run through it 5 times. :) I'm just full of good MMO ideas, aren't I? I should apply for a job with Blizzard.

That could work and be fun, you'd just have to figure out how to work it when multiple people in the party are on multiple stages of the instance, or made different decisions.

Would that be alike what they had in Warhammer Online? I think they were called public quests, where a "scenario" would be in progress and you could join in and help reach the objectives of that scenario. They were actually pretty fun, but I hope Blizzard does something for a change.

It's a little unclear what they mean, but I think it's more like a 5 man instance where there is some kind of a story going on that you take part in. Like a battle or a castle siege or something like that. So I don't think they are really public. I remember public quests in Champions online, and they were an interesting idea but I don't think any of the ones I played in were all that exciting. However I could see it being interesting if done well. Given WoW's huge player base though you might tend to have too many people doing it at one time.

[Thaurin]

That could work and be fun, you'd just have to figure out how to work it when multiple people in the party are on multiple stages of the instance, or made different decisions.

Yeah, probably just that people can only join people that are on the same stage, or the instance would be put on the lowest stage of the group. But that's the main problems you have when designing MMOs... synchronising the world (or not) with every other player.

Hey, so what if there is some sort of lore explanation for having, like, parallel universes (that you could possibly travel between)? :)

[quote]However I could see it being interesting if done well. Given WoW's huge player base though you might tend to have too many people doing it at one time.

Didn't WoW already have systems in place on release that spawned more mobs if the area was crowded? I'm sure Blizzard is capable enough of finding a proper implementation. :)

[Zloth]

Great guns, did somebody cross-post into the Politics forum? Look at all these posts!

When you see dozens of other players going through the same thing - even if the cutscenes/phases are for yourself only - it just doesn't work for me.
I hate that, too, and went on about it quite a bit in the forums. "Enter this temple. No man that has set foot in there has ever returned. Be wary!" Then you go in and it's so crowded you have to wait in line for some of the quest objectives. Sheesh.

That DOES get better later in the game both because the population this/spreads and because the instancing areas get larger. In the early game the instanced portion of a quest is often just a small area or even just a single room. The later portions of the game seemed to have bigger instanced areas.

The game seems a lot like a KotOR game to me. Except it crashes a lot less. (I've tried twice now to start a new KotOR game and the thing is crashing pretty often.)

[skavenhorde]

I was slightly curious about this since I loved KOTOR and Star Wars, but the only MMO I can stomach is D&D and even then only in small doses. I will not make the mistake of buying an MMO just because it's based on a property I love. I did that with WAR and regretted it.

Thanks guys, I'll pass. This game sounds about as much fun as going to the dentist.

[DArtagnan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_Njryn3O3U&gl=GB

Seems to reflect my own thoughts quite well.

Overally, it just seems like a game where the development (and a shit-ton of resources) that should have been driven by passion - was driven by the design-by-comittee approach.

No vision and a distinct lack of style.

That said, I do think it might be worth playing. It's probably about as good as a game can get when it's all about what money can buy. They did spend a fair amount of money on it, after all.

It sort of reminds me of Dragon Age 2 in that way.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

On the web site of a German gaming mag The Kotick is quoted saying that Bioware/EA "will lose money on that", and that the only ones who will profit from that will be LucasArts. He claims to have worked long enough with LucasArts to be able to say that, in this sense (don't have the exact words in my mind anymore, except this "they will lose money on that").
Unfortunately the web site gives no source for that quotation.

[Zloth]

Yeah, and Pachter said it will more likely make $80 million per year (news item at GameSpot). I'm thinking Pachter is a bit less biased then Kotick.

But back to Star Wars....

It *IS* an MMO so a lot of your fun will be determined by who you play with. If you just close your chat window, turn off nameplates, and pretend it's a single player game then you still might get your money's worth out of it but I doubt you'll have as much fun as you did with KotOR. If you do find a fun group of folks to play with, though, then this should be plenty of fun.

[DArtagnan]

Seems I've been invited to the regular beta test now. Guess I'll give it a more thorough spin - and give them as much feedback as I can.

[wolfing]

Oh it will make money, I have no doubt about it. At least they'll recover the expenses and make lots of money the first year. My only concern is after the first year, since this game focuses on stories so much, they better get ready to add more storylines fast, unless they want to become a WoW clone at endgame and just have a few dungeons to do over and over and over to complete your pink battle armor set.

[Maylander]

That is my fear/hope as well. I fear they will fall into the same routine as WoW, but I hope they continue to produce story driven content. It would be amazing to get my sci-fi RPG fill from a long lasting MMO, but I certainly don't expect it.

[hishadow]

They will monetize it to hell after 2-3 years so I suggest not waiting too long before trying it out. It's a lot more interesting playing these mmos when your server is buzzing with activity.

[fadedc]

Let us know if your opinion changes at all.

Seems I've been invited to the regular beta test now. Guess I'll give it a more thorough spin - and give them as much feedback as I can.

[DArtagnan]

Unfortunately, it was only a weekend test - and the whole beta-test ends today.

I found a class that appealed to me more (Sniper, Imperial Agent) - but my opinion of the game stands.

I think it's the lack of gameplay innovation and the dreadfully stale approach to most of the vital aspects that kills it for me.

The combat, while good looking, just isn't exciting in terms of the feel and flow - especially not in PvP (which is way too slowpaced for my tastes). WoW, while many claim it to be similar, is vastly better. It's about the pacing and the nuance of visual feedback. Something that Blizzard did so incredibly well, that no other MMO can approach it - except perhaps Age of Conan.

But the whole formula is just too derivative and tired - and they should really have taken more chances with it. Well, maybe that's not the way to put it. They've clearly taken almost everything from WoW - but they did it without passion or a true sense of the MMO paradigm and how it has evolved over the years, and especially how other games on the horizon are evolving it. It's as if everything about SWTOR has been researched rather than designed by a talented designer.

I have a feeling it will be very successful - and I'd estimate around 2-4 million subscribers in the short-term. For the long-term, I fear it will fall on its face, though it may take longer than it has for others.

I know some people will want to check out all the character stories, but I think most will not endure more than 2-3 stories before the gameplay stagnates the whole thing. Still, that's quite a lot of playtime and I don't think I can accuse the game of not offering value-for-money. Certainly not if you're able to overlook the gameplay to experience the story, and in that case - it's a really good deal, even when subscribing.

But I see absolutely no reason to play beyond the story, unless you want a lesser version of what other games already excel at. They seem to want to repeat the mistakes of WoW for world PvP - and they most certainly can't offer a better PvP experience for the cloned stuff. Even Rift felt much superior to what I've played of SWTOR PvP (which, admittedly, isn't much).

"Operations" aka raids - doesn't exactly represent the step forward one would have expected from a game coming out 7 years after WoW.

SWTOR offers a level-to-cap experience that's story-driven. Something that I've longed for since they started the whole themepark paradigm. It's true that it offers similar features to WoW, on paper, for the endgame - but the truth is that they're just not implemented with the same skill or craftsmanship.

Essentially, after you've experienced what you desire of the story (including the companions) - the only reason to play SWTOR is for the setting, and you're going to have to settle for an inferior world design and an inferior combat flow.

[fadedc]

Doesn't sound all that appealing to a WoW veteran, although I can understand why they would do what they did. WoW is a pretty succesful and addicting formula and they already have a major license to draw people in so there's probably less need to take chances.

As someone who is probably going to continue to play WoW into the next expansion, I'm at least happy to see some competition on the market. The plus side of another WoW like game is that it can try out somewhat different things and the two games can see what works better and implement it. WoW has always been pretty good at stealing some of the better ideas from other games, and lord knows they could use some inspiration at this point.

[hishadow]

WoW has always been pretty good at stealing some of the better ideas from other games, and lord knows they could use some inspiration at this point.
Yes, they should get back to its original (pre-expansion) design where the game let gamers discover things for themselves!

[fadedc]

Yes, they should get back to its original (pre-expansion) design where the game let gamers discover things for themselves!

There are definietely some older things I'd like to see brought back, particularly seperate 10 and 25 man dungeons, and some of the more interesting (if unabalanced) itemization from vanilla. For all the complexity that's been added to the game, there are some areas that have gotten way too streamlined. When it comes to discovering things though, it depends on what your talking about. There are some things that everyone looked up on the internet anyway that I have no problem with them providing information about directly.

[hishadow]

That streamline is something I really hate. For me it kinda kills the gameplay. Rift is a good example of those elements, despite having a lot of good elements. You end up just following pointers, linearly from point to point, despite the openness of the gameworld. Achievement this, collected that. I'm mentally preparing myself to play SWTOR as a singleplayer game though. A single playthrough. I think it'll save me some grievance.

[DArtagnan]

There are definietely some older things I'd like to see brought back, particularly seperate 10 and 25 man dungeons, and some of the more interesting (if unabalanced) itemization from vanilla. For all the complexity that's been added to the game, there are some areas that have gotten way too streamlined. When it comes to discovering things though, it depends on what your talking about. There are some things that everyone looked up on the internet anyway that I have no problem with them providing information about directly.
All I really wanted from WoW was a reason to grow in power (which is the entire gameplay, really) - beyond entry to the next raid. I wanted to be able to exist in the world - and not in instances, where the world is just some kind of gigantic train station, where you're waiting to be transported.

I wanted stuff like housing and meaningful open world PvP.

It's really sad when you consider the fantastic technology Blizzard created, not to mention the amazing world of Azeroth. They really had the opportunity to implement a strong world PvP structure - and they could have done it in a million ways. If they didn't want it to affect casuals, then there are lots of ways to design around that.

WoW was far from my first MMO, but it was the first one I lost myself in. Even if I played UO/EQ/DAoC before it - I never got into them, and I never played them more than a few weeks. I just didn't like the MMO paradigm.

To this day, I'm not sure why WoW changed my mind - but I think it's because it was something I could share with the GF (she became an even bigger fan).

But I wasn't aware of the gear-upgrade design approach. I was literally shocked when The Burning Crusade came out and they made a 100% gear reset. I'm not really a loot whore - so I wasn't pissed off so much as simply astonished at how hollow that design formula was. It dawned on me that everything you worked for was going to be VERY temporary, and every single "reward" was an illusion. Blatantly so, actually.

So, the entire themepark "vertical gear-progression at endgame" design approach just lost its flavor instantly.

That's probably why I can't get excited for SWTOR at all, because they seem to be doing the exact same thing. Something which can be said for almost all "big name" MMOs since WoW. AoC, WAR, Aion, Rift, LotR, and others. I've tried them all, and it's the same crap over and over.

Well, Age of Conan almost worked - but was destroyed by incompetence and a lack of coherent vision. Now it's just another run-of-the-mill themepark game.

Yes, the themepark formula is boring to me - but I still think it can work if they evolve it. Guild Wars 2 seems to be a true evolution - even if it's still the same basic design at the core. But SWTOR is more devolution than evolution, sadly.

ArcheAge remains the only game with enough potential to make me stick with the genre, in terms of hoping for something special.

[Maylander]

I don't really agree with you regarding WoW vs TOR combat. I feel TOR combat is faster, more engaging, with better animations. I especially like Bounty Hunter/Trooper, which is weird because I usually don't enjoy such classes. They simply feel badass already from the start, blowing stuff up and crowd controlling enemies without breaking a sweat. There's no class similar to the Trooper/BH in WoW.

That being said, it's only a tiny step in the right direction in my opinion, and certainly not something that will add to the overall experience for someone who is tired of WoW-like gameplay. TOR really is WoW in space, with added focus on story. The story thing really works though, at least for me. It's miles ahead of WoW in that regard.

[DArtagnan]

I don't really agree with you regarding WoW vs TOR combat. I feel TOR combat is faster, more engaging, with better animations. I especially like Bounty Hunter/Trooper, which is weird because I usually don't enjoy such classes. They simply feel badass already from the start, blowing stuff up and crowd controlling enemies without breaking a sweat. There's no class similar to the Trooper/BH in WoW.

That being said, it's only a tiny step in the right direction in my opinion, and certainly not something that will add to the overall experience for someone who is tired of WoW-like gameplay. TOR really is WoW in space, with added focus on story. The story thing really works though, at least for me. It's miles ahead of WoW in that regard.

Well, it's based on my experience with 3 classes so far. My highest level was level 14 with the Sniper - so I can't speak about other classes.

I don't know how to describe it, but I suppose it's just down to a matter of taste.

My primary issue is with the GCD being to pervasive, and the drawn-out battles in PvP. That was a deliberate decision - as far as I know - and they WANT battles to last longer. Obviously, a lot of people enjoy that - but I hate it. I love fast-paced combat where you HAVE to be ready and react quickly. WAR and Rift were similarly slow and cumbersome to me, but I've read several posts from people who consider them equal - or even superior - to WoW combat. When I hear that, I question my sanity - or if we're playing different games, but ultimately I just don't know what it is.

Since I've been a rogue in WoW primarily (for a loooooong time) - that's what I'm used to. Despite all the changes and balance efforts - it was always an extremely satisfying class to play. Never a dull moment, and considering it's an MMO with hundreds of players potentially in the same area - it's EXTREMELY responsive.

SWTOR enforces a 1.5 second GCD - and the vast majority of abilities share it. WoW rogue has a 1 second GCD - and a lot of the abilities ignore it, meaning you can instantly perform a variety of actions. Bioware have openly said they designed it that way because they want their animations to pay off - and make more things visible.

While I'm sure that's true, I happen to believe that Blizzard are particularly competent when it comes to netcode and "gameplay feel" - and I MUCH MUCH MUCH prefer their approach to having everything animate visibly.

Furthermore, I think SWTOR has a poor feedback system compared to WoW. In WoW, every single ability for every single class has a DISTINCT visual indicator and a DISTINCT sound. It means you will instinctively KNOW what's going on, whether or not you're watching icons. SWTOR is better than others, granted, but it has absolutely nothing on WoW in terms of combat.

Still, there's no accounting for taste - and we obviously don't see these things in the same way.

All I can recommend is for every player to try it out for himself, and even despite my concerns - I think most players can find something to enjoy, at least for the first month or so.

My "warning" is more about not getting overly excited - though I could of course be entirely wrong about my observations.

[DArtagnan]

Oh, I also forgot to mention the overabundance of similar abilities. I can't speak about later levels, but already at level 14 - I had several superfluous abilities - or at least abilities that did basically the same thing. I know that some games don't reveal themselves until you're at the endgame, but certainly at this stage - I didn't see the "big picture" at all. That was at level 14.

That's another absolutely fantastic thing about WoW, at least when I played it a few years ago, that pretty much EVERY single ability was unique and distinct, and you could easily sense that some designer with a brain had thought the class through.

I will readily admit that I've only played this game for ~20 hours - and they could have designed the game in a way that I just don't comprehend. Sadly, the whole game reeks of me-too design, so I have no real reason to trust in Bioware for that part.

Especially not when I think about how they designed Mass Effect and Dragon Age. They don't seem to understand mechanics on a deep or complex level.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

That's another absolutely fantastic thing about WoW, at least when I played it a few years ago, that pretty much EVERY single ability was unique and distinct, and you could easily sense that some designer with a brain had thought the class through.

Isn't that the case for most games / MMOs especially nowadays, that they are so much combat-oriented ?

In DDO, I have never seen a single quest where social stats or talents were of use.
And that, although things like "Charisma", "Wisdom" exist.

And my fear would be that people would just come up with "solution packages" for non-combat missions, like "you answer in the following question to solve the quest : 1-2-1-3-4", like I have seen similar solutions for adventure games.

Personally, I would really like to see real checks of non-combat elements in the game, and not things like "your wisdom/intelligence is too low to pull that lever" (I have seen similar things in a few DDO missions, actually).

Personally, I'd call that "social gaming", with a different definition of what is called "social gaming" today.

[DArtagnan]

I'm not sure what you're asking, really.

If you're asking me simply if MMOs are very combat-oriented - then you're very correct.

Would I like to have more non-combat content? Yes, indeed.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

No, I'm just stating. Nothing more, nothing less.
Rhetoric question.

[Maylander]

Well yes, rogues, kitty druids and unholy death knights all have 1 sec GCD, but everyone else has 1,5 just like TOR, so that's what I'm used to. As far as animations go, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to recognize anything in WoW after just 20 hours of gameplay - telling the difference between Crusader Strike and Templar's Verdict? Not a chance, no way. The subtle differences will come in time in TOR, it just takes a while, which it did in WoW too. There's plenty of confusing abilities there: All the different totems and shocks of a Shaman? Lightning Bolt vs Chain Lightning? Identical animations all over the place, with small differences that are learned over time.

Show me someone who can play a high level hunter for a few hours, having never played WoW before, and knows the difference between the various shots:
- Arcane Shot
- Multishot
- Viper Sting
- Chimaera Shot
- Black Arrow
- Wyvern Sting
- Aimed Shot
- Serpent Sting
- Scatter Shot
- Kill Shot
- Tranquilizing Shot
- Cobra Shot

The animations are identical, you'll just have to see what happens to know the effect. There's no way anyone can know the difference just based on the animation unless they've either played a hunter or pvp extensively.

[DArtagnan]

Well yes, rogues, kitty druids and unholy death knights all have 1 sec GCD, but everyone else has 1,5 just like TOR, so that's what I'm used to. As far as animations go, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to recognize anything in WoW after just 20 hours of gameplay - telling the difference between Crusader Strike and Templar's Verdict? Not a chance, no way. The subtle differences will come in time in TOR, it just takes a while, which it did in WoW too. There's plenty of confusing abilities there: All the different totems and shocks of a Shaman? Lightning Bolt vs Chain Lightning? Identical animations all over the place, with small differences that are learned over time.

Show me someone who can play a high level hunter for a few hours, having never played WoW before, and knows the difference between the various shots:
- Arcane Shot
- Multishot
- Viper Sting
- Chimaera Shot
- Black Arrow
- Wyvern Sting
- Aimed Shot
- Serpent Sting
- Scatter Shot
- Kill Shot
- Tranquilizing Shot
- Cobra Shot

The animations are bloody identical, you'll just have to see what happens to know the effect. There's no way anyone can know the difference just based on animation unless they've either played a hunter or pvp extensively.

The animations are identical, yes, but the SOUNDS are distinct and the visual indicator is DISTINCT. Blizzard understood how to use very distinct colors and sounds. They didn't go for "realistic" sounds or animations - because they understand that such things are not what players need to follow the chaos of combat.

It's not like Blizzard don't know how to animate, you have to admit. They made some very deliberate choices to achieve a very deliberate flow of combat. Whether or not you agree with those choices is of course another matter. I just prefer their way.

I may be underestimating SWTOR, but it's exactly this kind of thing I'm good at picking up on. I've played countless MMOs since WoW - and I've been looking for one with the same quality of combat - and I've yet to find it. I played AoC, WAR, LotR, EQ2, Vanguard, and others for several months.

NONE of them come close to WoW in terms of visual/sound feedback.

I know what to look for, and I agree that SWTOR has better and more distinct animations than WoW - just like I mentioned above.

Unfortunately, that's about the last thing you look at when you're deep in PvP or a demanding operation.

You need something a lot more obvious, like a combination of a distinct sound effect and VERY distinct visual indicators. SWTOR is too subtle in that way, but I admit it's better than Rift and AoC - for instance. They tried to make some of the CC visually distinct, but the sounds are not distinct enough - and you really have to look at the opponent to be sure anything is happening. The opponents respond appropriately in terms of the animations (like grabbing their heads when blinded) - but that kind of thing blurs during combat. You have to give players something more visually apparent - and especially the sound is important.

I looked for that, and I tried to separate the abilities in terms of sound effects. To me, it just wasn't good enough.

I'm sure you get used to it eventually, like I did in AoC - but I very much doubt it will ever reach WoW levels of combat feedback. That's certainly not what I got from playing it - and I had a very open mind going in.

[fadedc]

But I wasn't aware of the gear-upgrade design approach. I was literally shocked when The Burning Crusade came out and they made a 100% gear reset. I'm not really a loot whore - so I wasn't pissed off so much as simply astonished at how hollow that design formula was. It dawned on me that everything you worked for was going to be VERY temporary, and every single "reward" was an illusion. Blatantly so, actually.



Ah, I remember the days when people complained about that. I was a total loot whore, but I actually would have been much upset if they hadn't done a gear reset. To me going through all the new dungeons would have been pointless if there had not been new stuff to find and use. The gear reset thing is one of those things that was controversial at the time but is viewed as a total non issue now. Once you've been raiding for 3 expansions and seen your best in slot gear become obsolete everytime a new patch opens up a new raid tier, it's hard to get upset about the gear resetting in the expansion. This was certainly true in vanilla WoW as well, having all molten core gear at the beginning of the game meant you were uber, by the end of vanilla it meant you were a noob.

My issue is more with the gear just being kind of bland now. If you remember in your vanilla days as a rogue, a lot of gear was just horribly itemized and sometimes something would drop and you'd smack your head and wonder what the item designers were thinking because nobody would ever use that. As a result you'd sometimes still use old tier stuff because it was better. It was annoying, but it made you look at items more carefully and made them more distinct. Now itemization is much better and things are much more balanced, so if you find higher tier braces for example they will almost always be an upgrade. Sounds good in theory but in practice it makes you less attached to your loot, they are all just boring static upgrades that give you 2% more dps then the last one.

[DArtagnan]

All I can say is that we have very different tastes in terms of what we consider good design.

My personal approach to progression would have been allowing people to upgrade existing gear, and at the very least give them a reason to keep using legendary gear, considering the effort required to attain it. Don't nullify the endless work done to defeat Molten Core and Blackwing Lair.

As I said, I was not a loot whore - and I didn't have full sets of anything, despite raiding Molten Core 5 hours a day, 4 times a week for 1.5 years. I wanted Thunderfury but never got the second binding.

I'm thankful I didn't have it, because I don't think I would have appreciated the way they nullified the effort to attain it.

I just realised that loot was pointless - which in turn made raids pointless. Oh, I ran my own guild and did pretty well in TBC - but that was the end for me. I just don't enjoy running the hamster wheel once the realisation is clear enough that that's what I'm doing.

But tastes differ and all that.

[fadedc]

All I can say is that we have very different tastes in terms of what we consider good design.

My personal approach to progression would have been allowing people to upgrade existing gear, and at the very least give them a reason to keep using legendary gear, considering the effort required to attain it. Don't nullify the endless work done to defeat Molten Core and Blackwing Lair.



Well I'd say that the endless to work done to defeat MC was nulified long before the expansion reset gear levels just by harder raids being released with far better gear. MC was being cleared regularly by pickup groups by the end. That's the way it is in almost every RPG really MMO or not. Gear is only good til the next time you find something better. Then when a sequel comes out you find all new gear.

I'm not sure I can imagine every one of the 1000s of pieces of existing gear having their own upgrades in the expansion or how that would even work. But legendaries are a completely different animal. While expansion gear reset is now pretty well accepted, people often ask about making legendaries from old expansions usable in the new ones. Problem is that Blizzard doesn't want level 85 characters soloing MC every week to build thunderfury because it's still a better sword then their other options. We are starting to see legendaries have other cool effects that encourage people to hold on to them though. For example the current legendary staff can transform it's user into a big blue dragon, essentially becoming his own flying mount (not sure if they can carry people on their back).

[DArtagnan]

Well I'd say that the endless to work done to defeat MC was nulified long before the expansion reset gear levels just by harder raids being released with far better gear. MC was being cleared regularly by pickup groups by the end. That's the way it is in almost every RPG really MMO or not. Gear is only good til the next time you find something better. Then when a sequel comes out you find all new gear.

You seem to have missed the part about Thunderfury which was, by far, the most powerful sword in the game at that point.

As for the rest, yes, that's the way it is in many modern MMOs - and I don't like it nor do I agree it should be that way.

I'm not sure I can imagine every one of the 1000s of pieces of existing gear having their own upgrades in the expansion or how that would even work. But legendaries are a completely different animal. While expansion gear reset is now pretty well accepted, people often ask about making legendaries from old expansions usable in the new ones. Problem is that Blizzard doesn't want level 85 characters soloing MC every week to build thunderfury because it's still a better sword then their other options. We are starting to see legendaries have other cool effects that encourage people to hold on to them though. For example the current legendary staff can transform it's user into a big blue dragon, essentially becoming his own flying mount (not sure if they can carry people on their back).

You talk as if the existing design is the only way it ever could have been. Blizzard could have planned for this, and they could have done a million things to Molten Core and the process to attain the legendary weapons and upgrading them.

They didn't though, which is my issue with the game.

The whole vertical loot progression is my problem - and it has gotten steadily worse. If you think that's good design, fine, we simply don't agree.

[fadedc]

You seem to have missed the part about Thunderfury which was, by far, the most powerful sword in the game at that point.

As for the rest, yes, that's the way it is in many modern MMOs - and I don't like it nor do I agree it should be that way.

Well I specifically said that legendaries are a whole different matter so I hardly missed it. But you didn't have thunderfury, and neither did I or 99.9% of the people playing. So it's one of those things that only effects an incredibly small minority of people.

As for the rest, that's how it works in RPGS, not just MMOs. In BG you were constantly replacing your gear. Then when BG2 came out you had to get brand new gear.


You talk as if the existing design is the only way it ever could have been. Blizzard could have planned for this, and they could have done a million things to Molten Core and the process to attain the legendary weapons and upgrading them.

They didn't though, which is my issue with the game.

The whole vertical loot progression is my problem - and it has gotten steadily worse. If you think that's good design, fine, we simply don't agree.

There are lots of things that Blizzard should have planned for better but didn't, but it's easy to backseat drive once the game is out. I actually do have issues with the whole vertical loot progression thing, but I only have an issue with it within the confines of the individual expansion. When a new expansion comes out I view it as a new game and I expect everything to be reset.

[DArtagnan]

Well I specifically said that legendaries are a whole different matter so I hardly missed it. But you didn't have thunderfury, and neither did I or 99.9% of the people playing. So it's one of those things that only effects an incredibly small minority of people.

As for the rest, that's how it works in RPGS, not just MMOs. In BG you were constantly replacing your gear. Then when BG2 came out you had to get brand new gear.

If it's such a tiny minority - then why not allow them to upgrade their weapons accordingly? It's not like weapons are the only form of gear upgrade.

Baldur's Gate is an enclosed experience with a beginning and an end - very unlike an MMO like WoW.

There are lots of things that Blizzard should have planned for better but didn't, but it's easy to backseat drive once the game is out. I actually do have issues with the whole vertical loot progression thing, but I only have an issue with it within the confines of the individual expansion. When a new expansion comes out I view it as a new game and I expect everything to be reset.

I'm not claiming it's hard to point out flaws, but they still remain.

It's fine that you consider each expansion a legitimate reset, and we don't have to agree about how things should work.

[fadedc]

If it's such a tiny minority - then why not allow them to upgrade their weapons accordingly? It's not like weapons are the only form of gear upgrade.

Because then they wouldn't be such a tiny minority. Everyone would be going back to MC with their 85th level characters and assembling thunderfury.

It's fine that you consider each expansion a legitimate reset, and we don't have to agree about how things should work.

Fair enough, I just don't think that the reset is any different then what happened to 99.9% of us when our MC gear become obsolete at the end of vanilla.

[Maylander]

I was actually one of the first people on my server to get Shadowmourne, so I definitely agree when it comes to legendary items - it was awesome during Icecrown Citadel, but it sucked to replace it with a blue weapon while levelling in Cataclysm. I don't think they should last forever, but certainly more than a single raid tier.

Beyond that I do feel they need to replace gear for every new tier, or people would simply not bother. However, I feel they're churning out content a bit too fast, leading to replacing gear all the time. Basically, I never have time to get comfortable in a specific set anymore before it's replaced, which means I never get attached to any of my gear. I don't feel it's special in any way, it's just another DPS upgrade.

At least tier 2 (BWL gear) lasted quite a while before AQ got out. AQ didn't really last too long before Naxxramas took over, and Naxxramas got replaced by The Burning Crusade long before most people even completed it.

In TBC, Tier 5 and 6 lasted quite a while IIRC, which was good fun. I was quite attached to my gear at the time.

Ah well, I hope TOR follows a different pattern than the one WoW currently uses. I prefer having a bit more time to get used to my gear, which also means more time to play alts, do some PvP and so on. A non-stop raiding schedule that never allows me to do anything else quickly feels like an endless grind without any kind of variety.

[fadedc]

It can be fine line though between letting you get used to your new gear and letting you get sick of the current raid instance. In Lich King for example we were all sick of Nax by the time the new content was released, and in Cataclysm people were so sick of the starting raid dungeons by the time Firelands was released, that Blizzard attributed it to some of their subscription loss during that period.

One of the big things that changed between TBC and LK though is that raiding became much more accesible which meant that a lot more players were able to experience it. This also meant that people used up the available content much more quickly then before.

[DArtagnan]

For my part, the whole concept of constant gear upgrades as the reason to play is so hollow I can hardly describe it. If you believe it's not about gear, then sit down and think about how many would raid if there wasn't any gear reward.

Raids should provide much more profound and meaningful advantages, as in something that doesn't END over and over again - as you complete it over and over again. Every demanding high-level activity should impact the world as a whole, and should stand out as something special. But that's not easy when you want all players to experience all content.

Sometimes, I think people forget that WoW vanilla is what started the avalanche of popularity - and the 40-man raids were extremely exclusive at the time. That was true for a couple of years, pretty much. So this whole concept of making raids a more or less trivial excersise has absolutely nothing to do with how popular the game is - or at least I don't see it. In fact, I think by removing the "perspective" of attaining something special by performing well - you lessen the impact of the whole experience - and every casual change they've made might as well have contributed to the dwindling numbers as anything else they might have done.

Sure, by giving people loot you're making them happy in the short-term, but if you take away the meaning of loot - you completely ruin the concept of the game long-term. It's just a matter of when people wake up and realise the futility of their accomplishments.

Then again, I'm not into the whole themepark design. I think the ideal solution is a hybrid themepark/sandbox game - which hasn't been done yet.

ArcheAge COULD be the first one, but there are too many unknowns.

[booboo]

I was invited to the Beta - but part way through the 20-30 GB dload (to my suprprise! my monthly cap is only 20 GB..) I decided, that since I really don't like MMO's, it was probably a waste of good bandwidth ;-) I had hoped it might be more than a conventional MMO. Having read comments here and elsehere, it sounds like I was right and they have tried to marry two very different game play types (single player & strongly story driven vs MMO group play). I was only tempted because it was Star Wars, but I'm over that now. I suppose it could be fun to play with friends, but I'd rather meet up for an actual Star Wars d20 gaming session (with an excellent DM) that sit behind a computer somewhere planning a raid on some arbitrary a sith base. I really hope someone produces a good single player SW game again.

[fadedc]

Raids should provide much more profound and meaningful advantages, as in something that doesn't END over and over again - as you complete it over and over again. Every demanding high-level activity should impact the world as a whole, and should stand out as something special. But that's not easy when you want all players to experience all content.



See I think that would be great too in theory, but in reality how would that even work? How do you make actions in a MMO impact the world as a whole? Even back when raids were more exclusive you might have dozens of other raids on your server doing the highest level content and many more doing the lower and mid level content. How can you possibly make the actions of each of those raids have a meaningful impact on the world?

[DArtagnan]

See I think that would be great too in theory, but in reality how would that even work? How do you make actions in a MMO impact the world as a whole? Even back when raids were more exclusive you might have dozens of other raids on your server doing the highest level content and many more doing the lower and mid level content. How can you possibly make the actions of each of those raids have a meaningful impact on the world?

By, first, making them sufficiently challenging so that only the most dedicated people would succeed. Beyond that, by giving players both a "record" detailing actions - and tangible rewards they could place in the world and their houses. Things like that would work - but only if you plan for it.

[Drithius]

By, first, making them sufficiently challenging so that only the most dedicated people would succeed. Beyond that, by giving players both a "record" detailing actions - and tangible rewards they could place in the world and their houses. Things like that would work - but only if you plan for it.

That era of gaming is over. 60-80 hour weeks playing a game for so-called 'hardcore' content is something for which I look back on Everquest with great amusement and disdain. Studios, especially western studios, have no inclination whatsoever to go back down that path - they realize that it alienates the far more lucrative casual crowd.

As far as a raiding scheme outside the box, I still applaud the Turbine of yesteryear for its implementation of its two level 50 (Lotro) raids, Helegrod and the Rift. It was not so much about loot as it was pure fun between friends. Unfortunately, its later content has devolved much in that regard and mimicked WoW's lootcentric style more and more

[fadedc]

By, first, making them sufficiently challenging so that only the most dedicated people would succeed. Beyond that, by giving players both a "record" detailing actions - and tangible rewards they could place in the world and their houses. Things like that would work - but only if you plan for it.

So kind of like the original Nax or the Lich King, were the majority of players will never beat it when it's first released ok, they have done that but out of the 30k players on a server there will still be 100s who beat it. A record of actions, yep there are achievements for that and titles too (if you beat the lichking you get the kingslayer title after your name, it was pretty exclusive for awhile). And a reward that they could place in the world....you mean like a permanent thing they could put down and would stay in the world? Can you imagine 100s of those littering the world?

[DArtagnan]

That era of gaming is over. 60-80 hour weeks playing a game for so-called 'hardcore' content is something for which I look back on Everquest with great amusement and disdain. Studios, especially western studios, have no inclination whatsoever to go back down that path - they realize that it alienates the far more lucrative casual crowd.

Raiding wouldn't be the only point of the game, which is why it's right to make it exclusive. Also, it wouldn't be hard in a way that required TIME - but DEDICATION. There's a huge difference.

The worst part of the themepark subscription paradigm is, well, the subscription. That means the number one design goal is to keep people playing. With something like Guild Wars 2 - the number one design goal is to ensure people have fun, REGARDLESS of how much time they spend on it. Sadly, those two things are not as related as one might think.

So the whole subscription model needs to change for the ideal MMO.

But this requires developers to accept that players WILL do different things, and they will NOT get to experience all content. You do it for the perspective of the long-term achievements to lend weight to the experience.

As far as a raiding scheme outside the box, I still applaud the Turbine of yesteryear for its implementation of its two level 50 (Lotro) raids, Helegrod and the Rift. It was not so much about loot as it was pure fun between friends. Unfortunately, its later content has devolved much in that regard and mimicked WoW's lootcentric style more and more

I'd hardly call that out of the box. LOTRO sold out completely with the F2P model - and is now nothing but yet another run-of-the-mill hamster wheel.

[DArtagnan]

So kind of like the original Nax or the Lich King, were the majority of players will never beat it when it's first released ok, they have done that but out of the 30k players on a server there will still be 100s who beat it. A record of actions, yep there are achievements for that and titles too (if you beat the lichking you get the kingslayer title after your name, it was pretty exclusive for awhile). And a reward that they could place in the world….you mean like a permanent thing they could put down and would stay in the world? Can you imagine 100s of those littering the world?

No, nothing like WoW. I'm not thinking in those terms at all. The achievements mean nothing in WoW - because everyone can get them.

I hate achievements, because they're predetermined and listed - require nothing but time and patience. That's not the way to do it.

Also, Azeroth is not planned as a world with player content. You need a much larger landmass - and you need things like player-owned territories and significant housing. Check out ArcheAge for the kind of thing I'm talking about.

The whole point is that there wouldn't be 100s of these unique displays, because out of dozens of guilds - only a handful would earn it.

I'd rather they go the route of a more detailed account of the rare accomplishments, like how the individual contributed in terms of actual actions and numbers. I think record keeping is altogether weak in modern MMOs - and that's something given far too little importance.

People need ways to stand out and to contribute in unique ways, so I'd like personal records for most important actions. It's going to have to be a priority in terms of server storage - and though it would be nothing but numbers - the detail is sufficient enough that the structure needs to be prepared for it.

WoW couldn't make those changes as is, it would need to be planned for.

[Drithius]

I'd hardly call that out of the box. LOTRO sold out completely with the F2P model - and is now nothing but yet another run-of-the-mill hamster wheel.

Yes, which is why I specifically referred to the level 50 raids ;) The original Shadows of Angmar game was terrific. Before the grind of legendary items and long before the f2p model got plastered on to the game.

But this requires developers to accept that players WILL do different things, and they will NOT get to experience all content. You do it for the perspective of the long-term achievements to lend weight to the experience.

While this seems like a novel idea from a gamer's perspective, any MMO producer would look at you like you're mad. You'd be shelling out 1,000 man hours (or however many) to develop content so that only a select few would experience it.

[DArtagnan]

Yes, which is why I specifically referred to the level 50 raids ;) The original Shadows of Angmar game was terrific. Before the grind of legendary items and long before the f2p model got plastered on to the game.

It certainly had potential, though the game suffered a number of different issues.

I was a lifetime subscriber - so you can imagine my reaction when I heard "F2P" mentioned by Turbine in relation to it.

I checked it out a few times, hoping to be wrong, but it's only gotten worse - and the latest reaction is the biggest joke yet.

[Drithius]

I am a Lotro lifetime subscriber as well. Have not played recently - what latest reaction?

[DArtagnan]

I am a Lotro lifetime subscriber as well. Have not played recently - what latest reaction?

Sorry, I'm quite tired (haven't slept properly for a few days) - I meant expansion.

[fadedc]

Well there are achievements in WoW that only the best players can get. There are bosses out there that have only been defeated a handful of times ever and where many servers do not even have a single guild who has beaten it. The hardcore encounters in current WoW are actually far more hardcore then they ever were in vanilla.

An open world with lots of space would change a lot, but one of the biggest things people loved about WoW was how alive it was, how every space had something cool or interesting in it. Adding lots of unused empty space would allow for things like non instanced player housing, but it would also have killed the big thing that many that many loved about the game. I think you can understand why they might not have thought that would be a good idea. But it's something that might work well in a completely different type of game.

As for unique displays, if you lmited it to one per guild then that wouldn't be too many. But if you gave one to every player in the guild who defeated the boss then that would still be 100s even with only a handful of guilds doing it. So yeah giving every guild a statue they could put up could be cool, though again it would only work in a different type of game from WoW.

Finally WoW actually keeps records of a tremendous amount of your characters information, so they are definitely setup for something related to records, although I'm not sure I can imagine exactly what you are talking about.

No, nothing like WoW. I'm not thinking in those terms at all. The achievements mean nothing in WoW - because everyone can get them.

I hate achievements, because they're predetermined and listed - require nothing but time and patience. That's not the way to do it.

Also, Azeroth is not planned as a world with player content. You need a much larger landmass - and you need things like player-owned territories and significant housing. Check out ArcheAge for the kind of thing I'm talking about.

The whole point is that there wouldn't be 100s of these unique displays, because out of dozens of guilds - only a handful would earn it.

I'd rather they go the route of a more detailed account of the rare accomplishments, like how the individual contributed in terms of actual actions and numbers. I think record keeping is altogether weak in modern MMOs - and that's something given far too little importance.

People need ways to stand out and to contribute in unique ways, so I'd like personal records for most important actions. It's going to have to be a priority in terms of server storage - and though it would be nothing but numbers - the detail is sufficient enough that the structure needs to be prepared for it.

WoW couldn't make those changes as is, it would need to be planned for.

[DArtagnan]

Well there are achievements in WoW that only the best players can get. There are bosses out there that have only been defeated a handful of times ever and where many servers do not even have a single guild who has beaten it. The hardcore encounters in current WoW are actually far more hardcore then they ever were in vanilla.

To each his own. A huge list of mostly trivial achievements granting meaningless "fluff points" is not for me. But then again, I hate "achievements" overall - be it in Steam or Xbox Live. It's an incredibly artificial way to extend the lifetime of a game by exploiting the OCD aspects of the human mind.

An open world with lots of space would change a lot, but one of the biggest things people loved about WoW was how alive it was, how every space had something cool or interesting in it. Adding lots of unused empty space would allow for things like non instanced player housing, but it would also have killed the big thing that many that many loved about the game. I think you can understand why they might not have thought that would be a good idea. But it's something that might work well in a completely different type of game.

You can combine open space with interesting content by clever placement of structures and you can have separate areas for separate aspects of the game. It's not a new thing, though I've yet to see a successful themepark/sandbox hybrid world - but ArcheAge looks like it may just succeed.

As for unique displays, if you lmited it to one per guild then that wouldn't be too many. But if you gave one to every player in the guild who defeated the boss then that would still be 100s even with only a handful of guilds doing it. So yeah giving every guild a statue they could put up could be cool, though again it would only work in a different type of game from WoW.

There are a million ways to handle this, and it's not like I'm going to create an intricate game design just to demonstrate my vision to you. I'd suggest open player housing ala Vanguard/Darkfall with decorations and especially ways to display accomplishments to the open world and making plain your abilties through record display - for the individual. Guilds could place their stuff in areas under their control - meaning if you had none, you wouldn't have a place to display or gain advantage from it.

Finally WoW actually keeps records of a tremendous amount of your characters information, so they are definitely setup for something related to records, although I'm not sure I can imagine exactly what you are talking about.

Source?

I'm not being specific, because there's really no limit beyond storage space. I want as many details of as many achievements as possible. One of the primary problems I have with WoW is that you can't stand out in any meaningful way. The titles are fine, but they're nowhere near enough - and the entire WoW design has become about letting everyone achieve everything. That there are particularly hard-to-achieve items in the pathetically hollow list of achievements means little or nothing.

Almost everything "special" in WoW is about time rather than skill. That's because they don't dare to challenge the individual in an open world sense - as that would make others feel bad about themselves.

Everything remotely meaningful is done as a team in an instance where the effect on others is absolutely minimal.

Fine if you're into that sort of thing, and I'm not denying it's a successful way to do business.

Doesn't make the game anymore appealing to me, though.

The trick is to merge the themepark design with the sandbox design, in such a way that casual players who're not into the whole investing themselves aspect can avoid it by not engaging in the meaningful PvP or PvE achievements. There are many ways to go about this, including letting player-controlled factions imbue special advantages comparable to neutral NPC-controlled factions - and letting casual players avoid everything player-controlled, so they could safely experience the journey to level-cap and the story by belonging to the neutral NPC-controlled faction. This could, in turn, translate to milder death penalties and not having other players grief them - because they were neutral and couldn't be attacked by another player.

It's my personal belief that by giving casual players the "perspective" of being able to excel and attain something more if they put more into it, is not going to scare them away - as long as you provide enough fun for them to have. I believe WoW made a big mistake by thinking about content as wasted if not everyone got to see it. It's not like the game was suffering for the first few years because of that mindset.

But even if WoW was a great game at first, it still didn't provide any kind of meaningful long-term underpinning. It was still just a stretched out loot fest - with absolutely no open world PvP objectives or prestige-related accomplishments.

They STILL haven't introduced housing or a single reason to EXIST in the world, much less immerse yourself as a roleplayer. Azeroth is nothing but a temporary linear levelling playground until cap, at which point it turns into a gigantic train station where you're waiting for the instance-train to arrive. It's not a world you live in, and it's not a world in which your name means anything. It's about as far from the original vision of the first MMOs (like UO) as it can get.

It used to be about transporting players to a virtual playground where they could exist as an alternate character, with a huge amount of freedom and much fewer restrictions.

WoW didn't really succeed because it took such things away, but because it was executed with tremendous technical skill - and because everything from the world design to the combat and the overall gameplay flow was just about perfect. Furthermore, it ran on a calculator and had an art direction that every member of any family could accept without being offended.

[fadedc]

Well for a source on character information collecting you just have to log on WoW and look at the statistics sections, which tracks a great deal of information about your character. I'm not sure if it was there while your were playing, but a lot has changed since then. The achievements section also track a tremendous amount of info about your character, much of it pointless things like how many differen't types of food you've eaten. They obviously don't keep track of everything, but they are certainly setup to keep track of a lot of if they were so inclined. I could care less about achievements as well, but for people who want a record of their accomplishments, it does do that.

I'm not sure how you would have enough open space for 30,000 houses while still having a vibrant world full of things to explore. I think this is the reason why no one has even done a succesful sandbox/themepark hybrid. But maybe some game will come out that figures it out. But currently the fact that nobody has managed it suggest that it's not an easy thing to do.

But anyway you do still seem to be under the extreme misconception that everything has become much easier in WoW. As I said before this is absolutely not true. In fact the hardest of the hard bosses make anything anyone ever encountered in vanilla wow look easy. There are things that only a handful of guilds in the entire world ever defeated. I'm not talking about a handful on a sever….I mean a handful out of every guild in existance on every server. Meanwhile there are many other things that aren't as hard as that but which still only the top guilds of a server can beat. If your guild never beat Nax in vanilla then you wouldn't be able to beat these encouters either. Yes there are alot of easier raid encounters for casual players now but that doesn't mean that aren't still plenty of incredibly hard encounters as well.

[DArtagnan]

I'm not sure how you would have enough open space for 30,000 houses while still having a vibrant world full of things to explore. I think this is the reason why no one has even done a succesful sandbox/themepark hybrid. But maybe some game will come out that figures it out. But currently the fact that nobody has managed it suggest that it's not an easy thing to do.

30K houses?

That would clearly depend on what amount of players the servers could support - and there are several MMOs out with enough landspace to provide housing for everyone who can afford it on the server - even at their peaks, like Vanguard and Darkfall.

Housing wouldn't be something available to every player, though, and you would still need to control some land or belong to a faction controlling land. Just like, in the real world, there isn't always a house available at your convenience or at an affordable price - so you would have to rent a room somewhere, or live at an "Inn".

I'm not saying it's easy, but personally I don't see the "hard" part that would make it harder to do in technical terms, as it's already been done. The hard part is to make a design that can provide these things in a meaningful way and something that doesn't break apart in terms of balance.

But WoW was also very hard to do as a design, I'm sure, and they clearly poured a lot of thought into it. They just went in a different direction.

I think the problem is less about how hard it is to do, but how hard it is to get someone to finance it on a large enough scale - which is what a strong themepark/sandbox would require. Most sandbox MMOs are made without the resources required to make them attractive to more than a few dedicated people - but even so it seems possible to do a lot of the things I'm talking about, even for small teams.

No, I have no doubt it's doable technically and in design terms. But getting an investor to take that chance, is very very hard. Today, everyone is STILL remaking WoW - because that's what the money people see as the way to go.

ArcheAge is different, because it's by an asian developer - and they have a much, much larger audience - with a different idea of "instant gratification" as the best way to entertain.

But anyway you do still seem to be under the extreme misconception that everything has become much easier in WoW. As I said before this is absolutely not true. In fact the hardest of the hard bosses make anything anyone ever encountered in vanilla wow look easy. There are things that only a handful of guilds in the entire world ever defeated. I'm not talking about a handful on a sever….I mean a handful out of every guild in existance on every server. Meanwhile there are many other things that aren't as hard as that but which still only the top guilds of a server can beat. If your guild never beat Nax in vanilla then you wouldn't be able to beat these encouters either. Yes there are alot of easier raid encounters for casual players now but that doesn't mean that aren't still plenty of incredibly hard encounters as well.

You certainly don't seem to understand what I'm saying, and that's alright. I'm not saying everything is much easier (though essentially, that's the feeling you get) - but that there's no way to stand out. No, it's not enough to beat harder bosses with more hitpoints. I'm talking about unique CONTENT - and meaningful impact on the world - including open world PvP and territorial control.

You seem to be a big fan of WoW - and that's also quite alright. If you don't see the flaws I see, then maybe they don't exist to you. I don't mind that.

I'm not saying they haven't preserved challenges by upping numbers and tweaking super hard modes. But to me, that's hollow and mechanical. It's not unique or rewarding content. Just like I don't think games provide a more unique experience because there's a "hard" mode doubling hitpoints or damage.

That's not how to approach rewards, and their vertical gear progression isn't my idea of a meaningful reason to exist in the world.

Such is the way in which we differ.

[fadedc]

Well I didn't say that providing tons of space for houses would be hard. I remember Star Wars Galaxies and Ultime Online did that. I just said that doing it in a world that is at the same time detailed and interactive would be hard. It's not hard from a technical perspective, just a design one. You would seem to agree with me given that you were saying that nobody has ever succesfully combined the two succesfully. That suggests it's hard at best or impossible at worst. It's like when games try to provide both turn based and real time combat.....sometime your better off with just one.

In terms of difficulty I guess what I'm objecting to is that at least earlier in the discussion you seemed to be saying that the game has changed since you played it, and that it's become easier and that there is no longer anyway to stand out. This is absolutely not true. All that's changed is that there is now a wider range of encounters, both easier encounters for mediocre raiders and insanely difficult encounters that only the few best guilds in the world will beat. In that way it's actually much easier to stand out. But if you mean that you can't stand out like being promoted to duke and having your own castle, and permanently burning down a horde city, then that's true, but that was never possible in WoW. If your just bringing that up as a weakness of the WoW style of game, then I absolutely agree.

The last 2 expansions since you left actually managed to bring back some semi-meaningful world PVP. Kind of like Halaa from BC, only actually fun and meaningful and not a total failure. It probably wouldn't have been enough for you, but it was something.

As for my being a great WoW fan, well yes and no. You will note that I've criticized it a fair amount in this thread too and noted it's great need for new inspiration and ideas as well as changes I've disliked. I do think it's the best put together MMO ever, but that doesn't necesarily mean I'm enjoying it that much right now. Some of it is likely just the fact that there is only so long you can play a game, no matter how much content it adds, before it starts to get old.

[DArtagnan]

Well I didn't say that providing tons of space for houses would be hard. I remember Star Wars Galaxies and Ultime Online did that. I just said that doing it in a world that is at the same time detailed and interactive would be hard. It's not hard from a technical perspective, just a design one. You would seem to agree with me given that you were saying that nobody has ever succesfully combined the two succesfully. That suggests it's hard at best or impossible at worst. It's like when games try to provide both turn based and real time combat…..sometime your better off with just one.

No, it's about imagination. You can create one relatively sparse but large open landmass, where the players can compete for control - and then you can create a smaller more dense landmass for PvE with a lot of details. It's just one way to solve that problem.

Impossible? Ehm, no. Again, look at ArcheAge for exactly what I'm talking about.

In terms of difficulty I guess what I'm objecting to is that at least earlier in the discussion you seemed to be saying that the game has changed since you played it, and that it's become easier and that there is no longer anyway to stand out. This is absolutely not true. All that's changed is that there is now a wider range of encounters, both easier encounters for mediocre raiders and insanely difficult encounters that only the few best guilds in the world will beat. In that way it's actually much easier to stand out. But if you mean that you can't stand out like being promoted to duke and having your own castle, and permanently burning down a horde city, then that's true, but that was never possible in WoW. If your just bringing that up as a weakness of the WoW style of game, then I absolutely agree.

I've tried it since BC - and certainly everything PvE from level 1 to cap has become tremendously trivial - and that's a pretty big chunk of the game. I remember vanilla WoW - where the game was a not a pushover once you started doing the first instances and certainly the later PvE levels required a modicum of caution.

I have a lot of friends playing, and they're telling me they're raiding the same instances that hardcore raiders are doing - but that there are more modes of difficulty.

I'm not sure if that's true, but I certainly know that Blizzard's objective has been to introduce all content to a lot more players, and that can only happen by reducing difficulty levels. Content = assets, not the highest difficulty modes.

You seem to think I want a "hard" game - which isn't really what I want. I want a meaningful game - and challenge is part of that, but it needs to be a challenge that's about something other than upping hitpoints endlessly.

The last 2 expansions since you left actually managed to bring back some semi-meaningful world PVP. Kind of like Halaa from BC, only actually fun and meaningful and not a total failure. It probably wouldn't have been enough for you, but it was something.

Yeah I know, and it's completely pointless to me. I'm glad others find it meaningful - but I didn't. I had great hopes for Wintergrasp when I heard about it, but it came out being completely pointless as well.

As for my being a great WoW fan, well yes and no. You will note that I've criticized it a fair amount in this thread too and noted it's great need for new inspiration and ideas as well as changes I've disliked. I do think it's the best put together MMO ever, but that doesn't necesarily mean I'm enjoying it that much right now. Some of it is likely just the fact that there is only so long you can play a game, no matter how much content it adds, before it starts to get old.

True enough, and I used to enjoy WoW a great deal myself. But that doesn't make me blind to the issues it always had, nor the issues they've brought as they've developed expansions.

But it's not like we have to agree on this, you know :)

[fadedc]

Well didn't you say that Archeage wasn't out yet, and that it was unclear if it would be a succesful hybrid? If so I don't think that's your best example to prove that it's possible.

Regarding difficultly levels it's pretty clear that you aren't too up on current raiding, which is of course understandable since you've been gone. But no being more accesible doesn't necesarily mean easier. It just means that whatever your skill level is you can find something tailored to you. Even if your skill level is that your the #1 raiding guild in the entire world. It's not done perfectly by any stretch of the imagination, and I do have issues with some areas of it's implementation. But the fact that easy raiding content does not exist does not mean that extremely challenging raid content does not also exist at the same time.

As I said, I expected that Wintergrasp, etc. wouldn't be your things. It was very succesful though and fufilled Blizzard's goal of having world PVP that people cared about. But it was probably too canned/contained for you. Overall it sounds like you may just want a more PVP focused game. WoW has PVP but that's never really been it's emphasis, and PVE servers have always been more popular then PVP. That's why your unlikely to see something like a giant PVP continent where people fought for control of buildings that they created, which I'd imagine would be in their power to create if they wanted to dedicate enough budget to it.

[DArtagnan]

Well didn't you say that Archeage wasn't out yet, and that it was unclear if it would be a succesful hybrid? If so I don't think that's your best example to prove that it's possible.

Why would I want to prove it to you? It's to demonstrate that such a thing is doable. Convincing someone who doesn't want to be convinced is of zero interest to me.

Regarding difficultly levels it's pretty clear that you aren't too up on current raiding, which is of course understandable since you've been gone. But no being more accesible doesn't necesarily mean easier. It just means that whatever your skill level is you can find something tailored to you. Even if your skill level is that your the #1 raiding guild in the entire world. It's not done perfectly by any stretch of the imagination, and I do have issues with some areas of it's implementation. But the fact that easy raiding content does not exist does not mean that extremely challenging raid content does not also exist at the same time.

I don't feel like repeating myself yet again, because you're not listening. So I'll end it here.

As I said, I expected that Wintergrasp, etc. wouldn't be your things. It was very succesful though and fufilled Blizzard's goal of having world PVP that people cared about. But it was probably too canned/contained for you. Overall it sounds like you may just want a more PVP focused game. WoW has PVP but that's never really been it's emphasis, and PVE servers have always been more popular then PVP. That's why your unlikely to see something like a giant PVP continent where people fought for control of buildings that they created, which I'd imagine would be in their power to create if they wanted to dedicate enough budget to it.

I gave up on WoW long ago, and I thought I made that clear.

I don't so much want a more PvP-oriented game as a game with meaningful content and that includes open world PvP.

But anyway, this is going nowhere - and you're just resisting everything I say instead of listening to what I'm actually saying.

So - I'll let this rest now.

[hishadow]

I gave up on WoW long ago, and I thought I made that clear.
Too much Molten Core will do that to you.

aaaanyway. How was the flashpoints in swtor? Any challenge at all?

[fadedc]

But anyway, this is going nowhere - and you're just resisting everything I say instead of listening to what I'm actually saying.

So - I'll let this rest now.

I agree it's going nowhere, although I think I've tried my best to listen to and understand your opinions. I actually do respect your opinion on a lot of things even if I don't completely agree with them, which is why I sometimes find it interesting to discuss things with you. But I do think it's very much the pot calling the kettle black for you to claim that I'm resisting you and refusing to listen.

[DArtagnan]

I agree it's going nowhere, although I think I've tried my best to listen to and understand your opinions. I actually do respect your opinion on a lot of things even if I don't completely agree with them, which is why I sometimes find it interesting to discuss things with you. But I do think it's very much the pot calling the kettle black for you to claim that I'm resisting you and refusing to listen.

Fair enough, maybe I don't know what you're getting at either - but sometimes it's just best to let things rest :)

[DArtagnan]

Too much Molten Core will do that to you.

aaaanyway. How was the flashpoints in swtor? Any challenge at all?

Didn't have time to test them personally, but people are saying they're one of the best parts of the game. From what I've seen, they're looking pretty good - though many seem to complain about the boss fights being simplistic.

[Maylander]

Generally though, it seems people have spoken by picking WoW - theme park MMOs make far more money than sandbox MMOs.

That certainly doesn't mean they can't be successful, but from an investor's point of view it's more risky as it's not a proven success. TOR is the most expensive game in the world as far as I know, it has to make serious cash to pay off in the long run.

Also, flash points generally work out quite well. No idea how things work out at level 50 though.

[DArtagnan]

Generally though, it seems people have spoken by picking WoW - theme park MMOs make far more money than sandbox MMOs.

Well, if an AAA company like Blizzard made a non-themepark MMO - then maybe we'd know something with more certainty.

That certainly doesn't mean they can't be successful, but from an investor's point of view it's more risky as it's not a proven success. TOR is the most expensive game in the world as far as I know, it has to make serious cash to pay off in the long run.

Well, they spent - what - 150 million dollars on it, or something like that. Everything seems to indicate they'll get at least 1 million subscribers for a few months and something like 2 million already bought the game.

How many months until they get a return on their investment? :)

I don't think there's much to worry about.

Anyway, I don't expect a company like EA to take a creative risk. Bioware has proven several times already they're not into that either, so we'll have to look elsewhere for that.

But a meaningful open world PvP aspect or similar, doesn't have to represent any kind of risk.

[Maylander]

If it cost 150 million, it would take about a year to cover the development costs at 1 million subscribers. If that number drops below a million, they'll have a hard time covering the costs at all, simply because of the massive monthly costs they will no doubt have in the next few years.

TOR really depends on getting, and then keeping, a very large amount of subscribers. I assume they've got a model that allows them to make at least a bit of money even if their numbers drop a bit, but they certainly can't go too far below a million users and still make money.

[DArtagnan]

If it cost 150 million, it would take about a year to cover the development costs at 1 million subscribers. If that number drops below a million, they'll have a hard time covering the costs at all, simply because of the massive monthly costs they will no doubt have in the next few years.

Aren't you forgetting the millions of box sales? AFAIK, the cheapest copies cost 50$.

TOR really depends on getting, and then keeping, a very large amount of subscribers. I assume they've got a model that allows them to make at least a bit of money even if their numbers drop a bit, but they certainly can't go too far below a million users and still make money.

Well, I don't think we have much in the way of concrete information in terms of what their server farms, development team, and support costs represent - but I think a million users paying 15 dollars per month should be more than sufficient.

Maybe I'm wrong, though.

But I'm willing to take a bet that SWtoR will cover the initial investment within a year - and return millions after 2 years.

What do you say? ;)

[Maylander]

I'm certainly not taking that bet! I consider that likely as well, as I honestly think they'll be sitting on a million users or more for quite some time. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they get well above that, especially the first few months.

[DArtagnan]

I'm certainly not taking that bet! I consider that likely as well, as I honestly think they'll be sitting on a million users or more for quite some time. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they get well above that, especially the first few months.

Yeah, I think the first 3-6 months will see very high numbers. Personally, I'd estimate between 1-3 million users.

But I fear that it will start to sink relatively fast after that.

That said, I don't see it going below 300K users for years.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Every demanding high-level activity should impact the world as a whole, and should stand out as something special.

To be cynical and generally speaking (not to SW:TOR directly related), I would say that,

Every demanding low-level activity should impact the world as a whole, and should stand out as something special.

because low-level characters do have a right in "being meaningful", too !

Your argumentattion sounds to me as if only the highest parts of our real-world society should be allowed to have an impact upon this world, and all of these faceless, futureless masses of low-level ... err, lower parts of society sould just shut up because they shouldn't be allowed to change the orld "which they can't, anyway, because the highest parts of society are effectively hindering them to do so, because they believe that they themselves should be the only ones who should be allowed to turn the tide of the world.

Again : That's my cynical take on this.

I strongly believe that in an role-playing game, every single one should be able / allowed to hve the exprience to play "a meaningful role" within the game. Because otherwise . Why should I play it at all ? Only until my RPG's character reaches the ranks of the highest levels ? Because that would be a 1:1 mirror image of how our real-world society funcions now. That would be perhaps "The American Dream", to "level up" from a peasant to Mr. Rockefeller himself ... But should role-playing games really be as that ? Should they really be a mirror of real world's society ?

I think not.

But no-one chnges the formula, because originally, role-playing is about levelling up. "I level up, therefore I play a role" ?

[fadedc]

I think the developers said that the game would be a success if they got 500,000 subcscribers which I'm almost positive that they will. I think Dart's subcriber predictions are probably accurate, I know in my WoW guild we usually lose a bunch of people to these types of game when they first come out, then they steadily trickle back as they get bored. Supposedly the operating cost of running a MMO is very high as well, between GMs, servers and development. Plus they probably have to give a significant cut to the Lucas industry. So not all of those subscription fees they make will be profit. But I suspect that they will do fine.

There have been AAA sandbox titles (Star Wars Galaxies, Eve Online) that have done well in the past in terms of number of subscribers, just not anywhere nearly as well as WoW. But then other theme park titles don't do anywhere nearly as well as WoW either, so I'm not sure if that's a good way to measure success of a genre.

[hishadow]

It will rock World of Warcraft to its fundations. Atleast 4-6 months.