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Fluent
December 11th, 2011, 06:39
I really think it is.

For the most part, I haven't been able to tell the difference between what is Radiant Story and what is hand-crafted, so they succeeded in that regard. The only way I can somewhat tell what quests are Radiant Story, are if they send me to areas I've cleared already. And believe it or not, this is the first RPG that I've ever played, where I actually revisited some of those dungeons and cleared them out a second time. I couldn't believe I actually did that, but I did, and it's actually fun. That speaks volumes for how good of a game I think Skyrim is, if I can replay it's dungeons no problem.

Radiant Story combined with respawning dungeons can essentially create infinite content. At least that's how I understand it. I'm not sure if eventually these Radiant Story jobs will dry up or not, or if they'll start getting too repetitive. But they have provided me enough of a distraction so far, and I will continue to take them. I always come back from them with loot to sell, rings to enchant and weapons and armor to smith. So it's been fun.

Your thoughts on Radiant Story? Is it or isn't it a big deal?

zahratustra
December 11th, 2011, 19:41
It is a big deal for its potential and not a big deal in its current state. All of radiant quests I picked up so far are of "go fetch" and "go kill" variety which (even if created by humans) were always a turn-off for me. Still, if developed further, it can become a great feature of future TES games.

Drithius
December 11th, 2011, 20:06
Nothing all that groundbreaking about randomly selecting a fedex quest from a list.

Now, if choice and consequence played a part, and there were story arcs that branched out based on whether or not you successfully completed a "radiant" quest in time, it would be a living world. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

joxer
December 11th, 2011, 20:32
If it's a revolution, it's a bad revolution for my tastes.
I seriously despise unstoppable respawns in RPGs, prolly that's why I never liked Diablo 2 nor will ever play Diablo 3.
Respawns that end when you do something needed for them to stop, like in Drakensang or TW2, now that's another story.

But back to Skyrim... Ok, let those goddamned dungeons respawn for all I care, I won't visit them (unless noninfinite and so called radiant quest sends me back) but at least they could or can stop endless respawning of dragons in the same area (in my case, dragons just luuuuuuuv to appear in winterhold and new dark brotherhood base).

Asdraguuhl
December 11th, 2011, 20:53
Radiant Story combined with respawning dungeons can essentially create infinite content.

Infinite content would asymptotically converge to zero quality.

I rather prefer a few well designed quests than a lot of quests with little to no depth. For me, this is the biggest flaw in Skyrim, and a very big one IMO.

Jack
December 11th, 2011, 21:28
:lol:
Arena had that shit back in 1994, so it isn't particularly revolutionary. It doesn't stand a chance against any quests of purely human design.

zahratustra
December 11th, 2011, 21:34
I rather prefer a few well designed quests than a lot of quests with little to no depth. For me, this is the biggest flaw in Skyrim, and a very big one IMO.
Can't argue with the first sentence but disagree with "a very big one" in second. After a while radiant quests become easily recognizable and, since Skyrim has enough content beside radiant quests, they are not necessary for for progression and can be skipped.
I wish game offered an option to remove quests from your journal though.

Asdraguuhl
December 11th, 2011, 22:53
Can't argue with the first sentence but disagree with "a very big one" in second. After a while radiant quests become easily recognizable and, since Skyrim has enough content beside radiant quests, they are not necessary for for progression and can be skipped.
I wish game offered an option to remove quests from your journal though.

The way I see it, all this amount of smaller filler quests of little quality have such a large presence that they overshadow the relatively better ones and pull my average experience down. And I say "relatively" because frankly I am not impressed by any of the quests. Many quests start with an interesting prospect but they almost always end up going to cave/dungeon/fort and kill X without any interesting progression.

Example: Yesterday I entered Markath and I was confronted with some local problems. I though it was an interesting topic and had high expectation of the "conspiracy" quest. But the quest progression was so badly done and felt my intelligence being insulted, especially during the conversations with the NPCs.

I have played for 70+ hours and I really enjoy the exploration part as I think the environment and dungeons are very well designed although it is a shame about the low res textures. But I have come to a point where finding caves and receiving quests are starting to get annoying as it is just too repetitive. But the compulsive completionist in me forces me to enter the damned dungeon wasting another hour of my life :).

Once I finished "sight seeing" the map, I'll probably just finish the main quest and get it over with.

KapitanUnterhosen
December 12th, 2011, 01:16
I don't see how a feature that's been around for well over a decade is revolutionary.

Skyrim has enough content beside radiant quests, they are not necessary for for progression and can be skipped.
I wish game offered an option to remove quests from your journal though.

There's actually quite a bit of randomly generated quests you have to do in order to access some handwritten ones(companions and thieves guild for instance). I'm more annoyed by the fact I keep getting sent back to the dungeons I had already cleared before. A lot of these dungeons could just as well have been randomly generated.

Maylander
December 12th, 2011, 10:48
It's just a set of random kill or fetch quests, meant to motivate people into exploring dungeons. It most certainly works, but I don't see it as revolutionary.

DArtagnan
December 12th, 2011, 10:56
I'm not sure what parts of the game are affected by "Radiant Story" and what parts are not.

If we're talking about the random fetch/kill quests - then there's absolutely nothing revolutionary about them.

AFAIK, they did something new in terms of quest objectives and locations, by supposedly dynamically adjusting them based on what you'd already done or where you've been.

I didn't actually detect any "machinations" during any of the unique quests, so I'd say it must have been a success. That said, it's not exactly a very complex thing to implement. It's pretty trivial, and I have to wonder why they're not trying to do more with the whole "Radiant" concept.

Then I remember that the game is developed primarily for consoles, and what kind of resources they have to play with in terms of unused CPU power.

BlackHarmo
December 12th, 2011, 13:25
AFAIK, they did something new in terms of quest objectives and locations, by supposedly dynamically adjusting them based on what you'd already done or where you've been.
If memory serves me well, I read somewhere, a few months before the game hit the stores, that its purpose was also to avoid secondary quests from being lost to the player even before he initiated them, like if he killed or let some nasties murder (more probably, I'd say) a NPC supposed to give him/her the quest in the first place. If that's confirmed, then it seems like a good addition I'd say

crpgnut
December 12th, 2011, 15:38
Not revolutionary, but appreciated. It gives a completist like me fits though :) I can't finish this game, it's impossible! Still, I've revisited several dungeons and they're always fun. I make sure not to stay in any one area too long, because I don't want the dungeons to get too repetitive. I try to do a dwemer ruin, then a cave, then an outdoor area, then a bandit fort, etc. to keep it all pretty fresh. I also try to keep my miscellaneous quest down to two pages, so it doesn't get too cluttered.

Harlequin
December 12th, 2011, 18:29
I don't see how a feature that's been around for well over a decade is revolutionary.

There's actually quite a bit of randomly generated quests you have to do in order to access some handwritten ones(companions and thieves guild for instance). I'm more annoyed by the fact I keep getting sent back to the dungeons I had already cleared before. A lot of these dungeons could just as well have been randomly generated.

I do not understand the logic of people who say this. I find it quite realistic when I clear out a ruin or dungeon and a week or two later game time its filled back up with bandits or the like. It only makes sense, if I was a group of bandits and we came across a empty ruined keep I'd use it for a base as well. *shrugs* Perhaps that's just me.

zahratustra
December 12th, 2011, 18:38
Not just you. I don't have a problem with slow re-spawn either. More realistic (IMO) than place staying empty for ever.

Bostur
December 12th, 2011, 19:34
I'm impressed at how well it is executed in Skyrim but I think it would fit better into an MMO. Skyrim is already packed with hand-made quests so it just adds bloat in this case.

But I can imagine it working well in a slow leveling, multiplayer sandbox environment.

BillSeurer
December 12th, 2011, 19:39
I'm impressed at how well it is executed in Skyrim but I think it would fit better into an MMO. Skyrim is already packed with hand-made quests so it just adds bloat in this case.

The problem you get if it doesn't repopulate is like the Gothics; you eventually depopulate the world leaving it a barren wasteland of rotting corpses. Or you would if they left the corpses around. The numbers of things you kill in these games is insane.

darklord
December 13th, 2011, 10:57
The Gothics actually do respawn a certain amount of enemies, usually when you hit a new act. The enemies will often be tougher than previously to.

Daniel.

DArtagnan
December 13th, 2011, 11:20
Respawning is appropraite for Skyrim, I feel. Also, it's easily modded out.

Naturally, if you're a superhuman able to complete all unique content in 80 hours - then I can see respawning as more of a problem. It would feel "off" in such a short timespan.

But for a human player, I think repopulated dungeons is an appropriately rare sight - that serves as a meaningful underpinning to having a living breathing world that doesn't end when you're still having fun.

Of course, it's not perfect. I'm sure there are cases of revisiting a dungeon that has some kind of story-content that would not be a good match for repopulation.

But, given the nature of the game - and the scope of the game - it's pretty unrealistic to expect the perfect balance to suit every player in the world.

Thrasher
December 15th, 2011, 03:48
The one thing I don't like about how it respawns is that it can happen right in front you out of midair in come cases. There is a fort of necromancers west of Morthal. If you "clear" it out, and then come back they all respawn. All are in front, walking towards the compound. You get creamed by them because of their numbers all in one place, rather than being spread out throughout the dungeon.

Harlequin
December 15th, 2011, 04:36
The one thing I don't like about how it respawns is that it can happen right in front you out of midair in come cases. There is a fort of necromancers west of Morthal. If you "clear" it out, and then come back they all respawn. All are in front, walking towards the compound. You get creamed by them because of their numbers all in one place, rather than being spread out throughout the dungeon.

That is more a coding, under the hood issue/bug then a problem with the mechanic itself.

Thrasher
December 15th, 2011, 04:43
In general, I don't like respawns, but it's acceptable for Skyrim's huge open world. I just don't like how they did it for the above case.

BillSeurer
December 15th, 2011, 16:06
The Gothics actually do respawn a certain amount of enemies, usually when you hit a new act. The enemies will often be tougher than previously to.

That's not really respawning. It repopulates everything at once and it seems very artificial. You are on an island and have killed everything that moves; where did the new things suddenly come from?

DeepO
December 15th, 2011, 19:25
That's not really respawning. It repopulates everything at once and it seems very artificial. You are on an island and have killed everything that moves; where did the new things suddenly come from?
I consider the way repopulating works in G1+2 to be just about perfectly balanced between gameplay and realism - from gameplay standpoint, completely absent repopulation would be boring and more dynamic (chapter transition independent) repopulation would be annoying, given the games´ scope.
Partial repopulation upon chapter transitions gives the games some sense of dynamics and realism without compromising gameplay in one of the two above mentioned ways.
Also, it does not repopulate everything. You´re correct there are no real "respawns", only additional spawns, and a lot of these is story related (at least in G2).

Argument that you´re on island and thus respawns don´t make sense is weird.
Both games, G2 especially, maintain a certain degree of abstraction/reduction in their world design and their scale and within these parameters, the context of in-game(s) "realism", "respawns" are perfectly acceptable and consistent in my opinion.

Pretty much every game requires players to accept this sort of limitations, Skyrim included. You have to adhere to in-game realism, otherwise you´d be constantly wondering how comes that such a supposedly major city as Solitude has only 80 or so citizens, for example. Take a stroll through Rift woods, you´ll be hearing birds chirping constantly, but there will be none to be seen - another abstraction.
Etc.

Taking these limitations into account, G1+2´s repopulation scheme feels less artificial than Skyrim´s to me. Skyrim´s wildlife respawns are ok from the in-game realism perspective to me, but the respawns in camps or dungeons are not.
It feels like the world is full of invisible enemy groups which just wait for you to clear a place for them and after a while it starts to feel like there´s a lot more of outlaws than normal citizens.
And all respawns are the same general type of enemies, the difference is only in their strength, based on your character level. The game is big so this kind of limitation is understandable, but it doesn´t make it feel any less artificial.

Also, if you combine exploration with questing (radiant questing especially), you´ll be dealing with these dungeon/camp respawns often and that, at least for me, is boring. I thought the radiant stuff was supposed to predominantly send you to locations you haven´t "cleared" yet, but this very likely does not work in the game. Maybe it works within the radiant quest system itself, but in my game it didn´t seem to take into account "clearing" locations on my own (without a quest) or via a non-radiant quest.

Since the general respawn period seems to be much longer than in Oblivion, it´s definitely an improvement, but overall I´ve found it quite a bit more verisimilitude-breaking than in G1+2 (I actually didn´t find it verisimilitude-breaking at all in those games).
That said, considering the Skyrim´s scope, I think the implementation is good overall. Hopefully few of the truly glaring issues will be addressed via patches - some of the specific cases which I´ve noticed that need to be taken out of respawn include the named vampire mini-boss or the note in Labyrinthian, for example.

crpgnut
December 16th, 2011, 23:02
I'm curious as to what direction the upcoming expansions will take. Will it be tweaks to Radiant Story? That'd be very nice:

I'd like to see deeper followers, since they're so handy to have around.

Someone other than my character to actually shop.

Mercenaries hired to clean out some of the local dungeons and then have a chance for a Radiant quest to find out what happened to them if they don't come back.

I'd love to see way more skirmishes between the empire and the Stormcloaks. So far, I'm the only one truly involved in making war against either.

More traffic on the roads too. I almost never see anyone, and there should be several patrols at strategic points.

Instead of new areas, I'd really like to see gameplay improvements. This is a wonderful game, but anything can be improved.

Jaz
December 16th, 2011, 23:34
I'd love to see some more Brynjolf dialogue after a certain point in the thieves guild questline. As it is, he's the Garrus of Skyrim: all the playerettes I know have the hots for him, but he's always calibrating. I mean, has got more important stuff to do.

Edit: Yeah, I know that's not necessarily radiant-dependent. But still.

sakichop
December 17th, 2011, 00:12
I thought one of the features of the radiant quest was to send you to new areas to explore. For example if your giving a new quest that was supposed to be in a dungeon you've already explored it would pick a dungeon you haven't been to yet.

I've been sent to some dungeons 3 times now and I would bet I've explored less that 20 dungeons so far.

Fluent
December 17th, 2011, 01:55
I'm over 100 hours in, and Radiant Story continues to send me to new locations. Yes, it has sent me to the same place, but that only happened 2 or 3 times, for the most part it's sending me to places I didn't even know existed.

Harlequin
December 17th, 2011, 04:26
I'm over 100 hours in, and Radiant Story continues to send me to new locations. Yes, it has sent me to the same place, but that only happened 2 or 3 times, for the most part it's sending me to places I didn't even know existed.

Same for me. Been to a couple I was already at but ~90% of what I assume are radiant quests have been to new locations.

crpgnut
December 21st, 2011, 15:35
Same here. Each region has two or three "popular" locations, but if you do several quests in the same area, you'll start getting new dungeons all the time. Valheim Keep is super popular, for some reason. I get sent there all the time. It makes sense though. It covers one of the only passages into the north, so bandits would love that locale.

crpgnut
December 21st, 2011, 15:40
I'd still love to see Radiant Story tweakage more than anything else. I'd like to see Belethor's associate manning the store while Belethor grabs lunch, sharpening his axe, either himself or asking one of the town Blacksmiths to do it. I'd like to see Hulda outside buying food while Ysolda watches the Inn, giving her invaluable experience. I'd like to see Amren test his father's sword out on Nazeem's neck. I'd like to see the bratty little girl, knock the Battleborn boy down and kiss him and then run away. Next day, she'd beat him up again, because who can understand women? I'd like to see a hand-holding animation and more signs of affection between members who supposedly care for one another, etc. I'd rather see this stuff than a new epic quest.

darklord
December 21st, 2011, 16:42
I'd love to see some more Brynjolf dialogue after a certain point in the thieves guild questline. As it is, he's the Garrus of Skyrim: all the playerettes I know have the hots for him, but he's always calibrating. I mean, has got more important stuff to do.

Edit: Yeah, I know that's not necessarily radiant-dependent. But still.

Actually you do get new dialogue with him once you've completed all the thief quests (not the main Thieves Guild quest but the separate ones from Vex and Delvin) and have the initiation ceremony, Karliah comes along to which is nice. :)

Daniel.

Jaz
December 21st, 2011, 19:28
Yes, but that's just about three sentences, and after that he's back to calibrating. Pah. What could be more important to a guild 2IC than talking to his boss? I really wonder.