Gothic 3 - JoWooD Comments on Patch Rumors

[Gorath]

JoWooD reacted quickly to the public pressure. Today their CM Johann Ertl issued the following German statement:
Werte Fans, Spieler, Forenleser,

natürlich haben auch wir die Spekulationen und Gerüchte gelesen, die eine Einstellung des Patch-Supportes für Gothic 3 in den Raum stellen. Wir wollen hier unmissverständlich klar stellen, dass dies soweit es JoWooD angeht natürlich nur pure Spekulation ist und wir ein solches "Canceln des Supports" bzw "Verzicht auf weitere(n) Patch(es) weder planen, noch ohne Konsequenzen in Kauf nehmen würden. Wir bitten um Verständnis, dass während laufender Verhandlungen zwischen zweier Unternehmen keine der Firmen über deren Verlauf öffentlich sprechen kann / darf, aber dies sollte natürlich nichts mit dem Patch für Gothic 3 zu tun haben. Im Gegenteil, wir werden alles daran setzen dass endlich wieder qualitativ höchstmögliche und natürlich kostenlose Patches für euch zur Verfügung stehen.

Euer JoWooD Team
Assistant CM Glockenbeat posted the following translation in the English Gothic 3 forum (http://forum.jowood.de/showpost.php?&p=2069639&postcount=1):
Dear Fans, Gamers, Readers,

Of course we heard of the rumors and specs saying that JoWooD cancelled any patch-support for Gothic 3. We want to clarify unmistakably that from JoWooD's point of view these are only rumors and we neither thought about "Cancelling patch-support" nor "Abandonment of any future plans about upcoming patch(es)" nor will we accept such ideas without any consequences.
We ask you to understand that while two companies are into negotiations both of them can't and are not allowed to talk about the progress, but this should of course not concern the patch.

It's even quite the contrary ! We're doing our best to deliver high-quality patches in future again which are for free of course !

Your JoWooD-Team
Please note that the second quote is no official statement by JoWood, it´s only an official translation by their community management team to keep their international customers in the loop. Naturally the original German piece is slightly more advanced in the art of saying nothing and implying everything. An accurate, lossless translation would have been a complicated task. Glockenbeat´s post is close enough, we´ll leave it to our German readers to sort out the subtle differences in the comments.
More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=5051)

[chamr]

I dunno. JoWood's language sounds a bit ominous to me. Bascially "we aren't cancelling it and we'll threaten PB with something if they cancel it, but at the end of the day, PB is the one with the code, not JoWood." Without knowing the contract and negotiation details, just about anything could happen. Bottom line, JoWood can not patch the game without PB.

[Thaurin]

Tadaa. Paranoia much?

[txa1265]

The internals of inter-company politics are rarely pretty ...

[Avantenor]

This statement doesn't give the feeling as if JoWood really knows anything about the patch. Seems only like a statement in defence, to escape the public anger. No substancial information if the patch is still in developement or how they plan to release it (via download / via addon?).

[skavenhorde]

One thing that clarifies in my mind is the statement "It's even quite the contrary ! We're doing our best to deliver high-quality patches in future again which are for free of course !" Everyone can nit-pic what the meaning of life is but overall Jowood flat out said they are going to release it and it will be free. Ok now I'm back to Dungeon Keeper 2 until the patch is released :)

[Thaurin]

This statement doesn't give the feeling as if JoWood really knows anything about the patch. Seems only like a statement in defence, to escape the public anger. No substancial information if the patch is still in developement or how they plan to release it (via download / via addon?).

Oh come on now. Stop this endless looking for something to blame them for. They said that the patch will come as far as JoWooD is concerned, which puts it all on Piranha Bytes. Who pays for the work hours might be and probably is under negotiation and cannot be discussed, but Piranha Bytes themselves have already stated that they will release the patch. Furthermore, they state that the patch will be free. So that means NOT PART OF AN ADDON. The only thing they couldn't mention is a release date and a fix list. That's because that information IS UNKNOWN TO HIM at this moment.

Or so he says.

[roqua]

LIES!! More lies. There is no patch and there never was one. You blind, silly fanboys. They have your money, now they are giving you the big wiener in the rear. I wouldn't tolerate this if I were a paying customer.

[JonNik]

Damn you roqua... I was having sausages for diner...
Well not anymore...

[Avantenor]

@Thaurin: I don't think he wrote this without consultation. Considering the whole mess and JoWoods reputation I can't see any positive aspect in this statement. I don't think they would avoid to promise this patch if they only were discussion about details.

[Elwro]

"It's even quite the contrary ! We're doing our best to deliver high-quality patches in future again which are for free of course!"

I just wonder why do I get the impression that the JoWood guy has purposefully omitted the game's name here, and might be talking about something more like an alleged general policy of the company.
Instead of reassuring me that the patch is coming, the info has instead reassured me that the patch's existence depends on current negotiations between JoWood and PB. I think JW do not see the point of financing a game released half a year ago, and would like to force PB to work on the expansion instead. We might not get any patch after all.

[Yeesh]

I, for one, am placated.

[Gorath]

I´ll repost Moriendor´s and my posts from the other thread. Both are based on the sharper German statement. Here´s mine:

Thanks, Hx. :) I guess we´ll wait for Mo (aka the Easter Bunny :biggrin: ) to translate this statement. It´s quite tricky and carefully worded in the things it doesn´t say but imply.

Here´s a quick and dirty summary:
1. JoWooD wants the patch. Cancelling it wouldn´t be accepted by JoWooD "without consequences".
2. They can´t talk about ongoing negotiations, etc. ...
3. ... which of course shouldn´t have any connection to the G3 patch.
He later clarified in answer to a forum post (... have no connection ... ) that he wrote "normally it shouldn´t have a connection".
4. JoWooD will do their best to finally make patches available again, in the highest possible quality and of course for free.


Comment:
I´m surprised Ertl said so much between the lines.
1. That´s a threat towards PB. Of course everybody "wants the patch". But who has to pay for the development? It´s all about money. Hard to say who is to blame.
2. Normal business behaviour. STFU about interna or you can collect your papers.
3. This has to be understood as the patch being a direct or indirect part of the negotiations.
4. Sounds good but is rather soft if you look carefully. Even JoWooD´s best effort can fail, and highest possible quality can still be unsufficient.

[Gorath]

Moriendor posted this more precise translation in the other thread. He also included additional infos:

I still see that his comment about starting the game now could be interpreted as "we keep having discussions with people who haven't even played the damn thing, so go play it and then we can talk about the issues" but I can see the context you are referring to and the fact that he is driving some sort of agenda.

Yes, exactly. He is/was driving an agenda. He's been posting almost daily before and not even once did he mention it before that people should play the game more so it's quite clear that nothing that he said was actually meant in this context. He back-pedaled and made up this "play the damn thing" context after the shit hit the fan.
Well, from reading that guy's post almost daily, I did get the impression over time that he is a -sorry- pretty whiny little critter anyway :biggrin: . I think everyone here who has ever worked for a bigger corporation/company will know what I mean when I say that Ralf is the guy who will pick up fragments of a phone call of higher up or some rumor from a secretary during a coffee break and then runs down the halls like a chicken with his head chopped off yelling "OMG! The end is nigh - We're all gonna get fired! OMG!".
At least, he seems to be rather good at getting involved in things that don't really concern him. And I don't think that he should be doing PR. His spelling and ability to express himself are terrible. Some of his posts are barely comprehensible.


Well, and here's (as ordered by Gorath :) ) a summary of today's posts of JoWood's Community Manager Ivan Ertlov...

1) Post no. 1 (http://forum.jowood.de/showthread.php?p=2069540#post2069540)

[Edit: I didn't see that Gorath had already posted Glockenbeat's official message so please feel free to ignore my version... Glockenbeat is as official as it gets, of course :) )

Dear fans, players, readers...

naturally, we have taken notice of the speculations and rumors that are purporting the termination of patch support for Gothic III. We would like to clarify unmistakably that this is -as far as JoWood is concerned- pure speculation, of course, and that we neither plan any such "cancellation of support" or "abandonment of (a) further patch(es)", nor would we accept any of this without consequence. We would like to ask for your understanding that due to ongoing negotiations between the two companies, neither of the companies involved is able or allowed to comment on the developments in public but that should, of course, not affect the patch for Gothic III. Quite the contrary, we will give it all we got to finally provide you with free patches of the highest quality.

Your JoWood team

2) Post no. 2 (http://forum.jowood.de/showthread.php?p=2069552#post2069552)

[some blahblah about his community relations job]
...
However, what this is all about is to clarify that we plan to neither terminate the support nor the patching, and I will post about any new developments as soon as I have any new info.

3) Post no. 3 (http://forum.jowood.de/showthread.php?p=2069557#post2069557)

Today's information is plain and simple: "No patch coming out, as some speculative articles in magazines claim, is bollocks."

4) Post no. 4 (http://forum.jowood.de/showthread.php?p=2069568#post2069568)



[I]You'll be doing that anyway :biggrin: .

No, seriously:

It was evident for all of us that the next patch had to become all but the "messiah" among patches. According to my definition, this means the elimination of as many seriously disturbing gameplay bugs as possible.

5) Post no. 5 (http://forum.jowood.de/showthread.php?p=2069593#post2069593)

Please do not begin any speculations as the online magazines did. Conspiracy theories are out of the question as well.

As soon as I have new information about the patch, I will post it. I have to work on some other projects now but will be back later tonight.

6) Post no. 6 (http://forum.jowood.de/showthread.php?p=2069602#post2069602)



[I]No, that's unfortunately not true. If I knew when exactly the patch will be released or if I had a fix list then it would already be a sticky post.

7) Post no. 7 (http://forum.jowood.de/showthread.php?p=2069614#post2069614)

No translation because this post was made in English to the English G3 forums so just click the link :) .



That was it. Let's hope that he keeps promise (for a change... last time he said he'll be back with more info next week, he was gone for 4 months :biggrin:) and that he will indeed be back with hopefully more info and details later tonight. So far this is all good news. They can not possibly turn around anymore now. There must be a patch. Maybe it is even already finished as someone else here noted as well and they are just arguing over payment and distribution. Anyway, it luckily seems like the only question is "when", not "if".

[Moriendor]

As a continuation of the above, Ivan has kept word and has popped back up tonight...

8) Post no. 8 (http://forum.jowood.de/showthread.php?p=2069987#post2069987)

It is evening time...
*pops back up*

And I have to point out again that I do not sit on "tons of info" to feed to the community. As soon as I do get new info though, you'll find it all right HERE.

9) Post no. 9 (http://forum.jowood.de/showthread.php?p=2070204#post2070204)

[some blahblah]
...
2. In the end it always boils down to these questions: "When exactly is the patch going to come out?" and "What will it fix?"

The reason I can not give you a different answer to the first question than before is that no matter who I ask, the answer will always be "as soon as possible".

The second question is somewhat easier to answer - but without a work-in-progress change list, I can not reveal any details like "pack of wolves - speed increased by 20%". All I can tell you is that after a fifth patch which was planned as a very sizeable patch, there ought to no longer be such things as perks that can not be trained, the guru bug, quests that can not be solved due to bugs and so on.

But once again - I CAN not give you a release date. Today's post just served the purpose of eliminating any rumors about there being no patch at all.

10) Post no. 10 (http://forum.jowood.de/showthread.php?p=2070224#post2070224)



[I]@Solandor: I would like to take the opportunity to mention here that we did in fact offer the "The Guild 1" fans exclusive content for "compensation" prior to the release of "The Guild 2".

Anyway, what OUR (I did not write that up all by myself) statement means is that we have absolutely no plans to let the customers, the players and the fans "standing in the rain". And patching and support is part of the plan.

11) Post no. 11 (http://forum.jowood.de/showthread.php?p=2070249#post2070249)



[I]Yes, Pheonixx is right on pretty much all of the points he made. What some of you are desiring goes more in the direction of a "mod" rather than a "patch".

I do like the general storyline but in my private opinion, it could have been a little more "dense" or more "omnipresent". I like a guiding red thread more than total freedom, at least in a PC-RPG. When it comes to PnP it's the other way around...

Anyway, good evening and see you tomorrow,

Ivan

[roqua]

More lies. Don't listen. They are trying to trick people that are waiting to see if there is a patch before they buy the game into buying the game now. Lets keep the drama going folks.

[Amasius]

Heh, I'm just glad I haven't bought the game yet. Most new RPGs are nowadays almost unplayable unpatched and so the devs get my money not until I'm sure I can enjoy it. There are "fortunately" enough voluntary beta-testers out there. :rolleyes:

[Cm]

I think until the majority of the gaming consumers follow your lead we will always sit here calling out for a patch to make our brand new shinny toy worth taking out of the box and installing. I could have got my hair done twice for the cost of a game I still can't really play. :lol:

[Dhruin]

I think until the majority of the gaming consumers follow your lead we will always sit here calling out for a patch to make our brand new shinny toy worth taking out of the box and installing. I could have got my hair done twice for the cost of a game I still can't really play. :lol:

...which is perfectly understandable. On the other hand, I definitely got enough enjoyment to justify the cost* and if it doesn't sell, they definitely won't make another one. I personally would prefer the current buggy G3 than nothing at all. I know plenty of you will disagree.

*This is a hard thing to measure. If I pay $10 (or whatever a movie ticket is these days) to go see The Usual Suspects (which I rate *very* highly), does that mean every other movie I pay the same amount to see but isn't quite as good was a rip off? Creative efforts will always vary.

[Amasius]

...and if it doesn't sell, they definitely won't make another one.
Maybe, but if we - the customers - buy bugged games again and again the devs will never make it a high priority to polish their games before release. And finally even don't patch them properly? *cough* I don't expect new RPGs to be bugfree, but the mess we got presented the recent years is just unbearable.

I vote with my purse and I will gladly support indie devs who make the kind of games I love like Spiderweb, Broken Hourglass of Iron Tower. The last two haven't proven anything yet, but I will buy their games no matter what. I trust them and if I got disappointed the wasted money is the last thing I'd complain about. I will buy G3 finally - budget and/or with an expansion but PB aren't indie anymore and I'm a burned child and have learned my lesson.

[Pfandpirat]

I think that the people at PB know that they can´t afford to disappoint their customers
again. If the patch is cancelled it would do further damage to the Gothic brand that has already suffered so much.
You can treat your money-cow in a bad way but when you cut the head off because of a small amount of money that is needed for the patch it would be very short-sighted.

[Thaurin]

Really, what a bunch of whiners in the community! And it's not even an MMO we're talking about here. :D

Let's get back to reality and leave the conspiracy theories for those faked moon landings that the government's been trying to cover up (but we know, oh we know). There is every reason to believe that, at heart, the JoWooD and Piranha guys still have all the best intentions. The problem here is, as always, that game development these days is a huge investment. We're dealing with big amonunts of money here. So that will inevitably lead to some drama in many cases.

Projects fail in varying degrees of severity. They fail miserably sometimes. So maybe PB wasn't up to the task of creating such a huge open-ended RPG as Gothic 3 is with the budget that was allotted to them. I think that for companies like JoWooD and PB, any huge failure may well end in total disaster for those companies exactly because of the huge investment required and uncertain nature of game development. So they do everything to keep their head above the water and get some return on their investment. This is to be expected and reasonable. They are not simply hungry wolves out to steal as much of your money as they can.

What you end up with in the end, is a product that does not satisfy some of you. It happens. Tough shit. Reading all these comments is like reading "OMG WORST MOVIE EVER, WALKED OUT OF THEATER, WANT MY MONEY BACK!!" on imdb.com.

P.S. Beta testing a game would be a lot less fun than actually playing a buggy game. So I'm not exactly paying to beta test their game. Shees.

P.P.S. Complaining about avoidable feature A not working properly and dismissing the whole game as crap is not preferable to me to, yes, avoiding feature A and enjoying features B-Z.

[Dhruin]

Maybe, but if we - the customers - buy bugged games again and again the devs will never make it a high priority to polish their games before release. And finally even don't patch them properly? *cough* I don't expect new RPGs to be bugfree, but the mess we got presented the recent years is just unbearable.

I vote with my purse and I will gladly support indie devs who make the kind of games I love like Spiderweb, Broken Hourglass of Iron Tower. The last two haven't proven anything yet, but I will buy their games no matter what. I trust them and if I got disappointed the wasted money is the last thing I'd complain about. I will buy G3 finally - budget and/or with an expansion but PB aren't indie anymore and I'm a burned child and have learned my lesson.

Sure. Unfortunately, the world just doesn't work that way. No matter what the intention, sometimes (well...always) the money is finite and sometimes things will go wrong and the money runs short. At that point, the majority of companies will attempt to find some compromise to stay afloat / get the product shipped / whatever rather than simply go under. I'm not suggesting it can't be done better or that you shouldn't be upset - that's your prerogative. The reality, however, is that no matter how much PB's communication policy pisses me off I am 100% they didn't ship Gothic 3 in that state for the sheer fun of it.

I know this because I've done it myself. Not in this industry, but I've owned a company that was quite successful (in its own way) for a period but we made some mistakes and suddenly we were in a precarious situation. We made decisions at that time (to keep our employees employed, for example) that we would have seen as unacceptable compromises in better times. Should we have stiffed our creditors and employees and gone under or rolled the dice and gambled with product quality in the hope of success? Dunno. Should we never have started in the first place unless we had another $100,000? Probably. But I bet there are games you love from a studio that was under capitalised but luck fell their way. I bet a few classics wouldn't have been made if some studios had said "we can only raise $2M. Sorry, I'm pulling out unless we can find $3M".

I also understand that withholding a purchase is a consumers only real way of influencing the market but...if you are a publisher, are you going to sink more money into a niche market or simply move to safer markets? In fact, this has already happened even without some consumer backlash. Ever think there aren't enough RPGs to play, other than dodgy Euro stuff? That's because the major publishers have already pulled out of this genre with the exception of "guaranteed" titles such as established IP (D&D), a handful of major studios (such as BioWare) and certain types of action/RPGs. A handful of 2nd-tier publishers (Dreamcatcher et al) then step into the void but they can't afford anything other than taking substantially finished Euro product, adding some cheap (bad) voice acting and dumping it onto the NA market in the hope it's good enough to be a minor hit if they are lucky.

That was too long. As for AoD and TBH, I don't get why you'd give them a free pass (assuming you'd have to when the time comes). You want to draw a line on quality -- so draw it.

[kalniel]

The arguement that 'it doesn't matter, they already have our money for a bugged game' just doesn't work. I used to think that as well, but developers and publishers know that reputation is vital in the long term. Bugginess is the worst chain to hang around any developers neck, and it causes them no end of problems in getting future contracts.

It took Bethesda years to get over the harm to their reputation caused by Daggerfall and more so by Battlespire (the former was at least a decent game underneath). Even with the amazing graphics shown early on in Morrowinds development I think uptake of sales was very slow. But it gradually grew. Come to Oblivion and the momentum carried over - Morrowind had banished the buggy game reputation (it was only averagely buggy ;) ) so people had more faith in Oblivion. The end result is clear to see for everyone :)

[Chekote]

Just to play devils advocate: "Free" does not necessarily mean that the patch will not be distributed as part of an addon. You get "Free" stuff when you buy products all the time, but whether you consider them truly free or not depends on your point of view.

Not that I think they would do that, I just like playing devils advocate. ;)

[Dez]

If they pull off something like that (e.g not patching the game free), they will lose customers.. g3 still feels like its in beta stage. When it was released, it felt like ALPHa. So we paid full price for a game which was clearly unfinished. Financially its not the end of the world (hehe..a friday night in the town can easily become more expensive :P). Its merely the principle. If JW thinks its wasted money to complete their product and thus leave it unfinished..well sure they can do it, but its bad pr. I bought g3 knowing it wasn't ready, but nevertheless I wanted to support piranhas, because gothic is my favorite games. Next time I will probably wait the reviews. G3 is a wonderfull game underneath..it ain't just ready yet...

[Thaurin]

Obviously, they decided that between bad PR and substantial financial damage, the bad PR was the lesser evil. Very few companies are going to put their own wallets and lives on the line simply out of love for the product they are making. And with these huge projects, financial ruin and bankruptcy is a real possibility.

This contrary to what people are claiming, which is that they just got greedy and wanted MONIES ZOMG NOW!!!1

[Moriendor]

Breaking news alert :) . PB and JoWood have announced (http://forum.worldofplayers.de/forum/showthread.php?t=225790) that they are going separate ways.

Edit: The translation...

Piranha Bytes and JoWooD to go separate ways

Essen, May 22 - 2007

After the final termination of negotiations over a continuation of the Gothic series, Piranha Bytes are forced to move in other directions.

Which titles are to be published under the Gothic brand in the nearer future is totally unclear at this point in time.

The negotiations which were held since November 2006 did not lead to an acceptable result for any of the parties involved.

Piranha Bytes can not meet the demands of the community by releasing a major patch with content-related changes.

The original idea was to develop this patch as a side-project along with an add-on or a further title (and to provide the patch as a free download as well as to include it with the boxes of said products).

Piranha Bytes:
Pluto 13 GmbH
Ruhrallee 63
45138 Essen

[GhanBuriGhan]

Holy. Shit. That sounds like more than just the patch might be down the gutter, but its wait and see at this point, I guess.

[JonNik]

Weeell thats the end of that... Sad really...
So, is two worlds any good ? :)

[txa1265]

Wow ... that is pretty major stuff.

[Thaurin]

Shit. Are you gonna make me eat my words now? :D But seriously, it really seems that PB is unable to fulfil community demands of a mega-patch, which means they screwed up their engine more than anyone thought.

Is this the end of PB?

[Gorath]

No surprise. It could be read between the lines in the last two weeks.

This is going to get really dirty. Pluto 13 owns the Gothic brand, but what does JoWooD own? The "world", characters, publishing rights for future titles until 2017? Rights to make console conversions? One party will have to pay the other to unite the rights.

Even in the ideal situation that Pluto 13 earns everything aside G2 and G3, it certainly means that their next publisher can´t have any intention to spend resources on fixing a competing product.

[JonNik]

From what Gorath says then if it isnt the end of PB it most certainly is of the
Gothic Brand...

Not that I would break a neck to support them after the way they handled this
thing...

[kalniel]

Initial reaction is very :(

My take on it is that PB couldn't meet the demands for free so needed an add-on/expansion to help fund it. Maybe JoWood wanted the patch first, then an expansion, or maybe they didn't want an expansion at all. Bit of a catch 22.

Ultimately, I'd be very surpised if at least some elements of a patch didn't make it out eventually, though I think the scope might be turned down and the testing would obviously be reduced. It may take a while for it to come out tho..

[txa1265]

Well ... maybe we can hope for a $40 'collector's edition' with the patch included :D

[Moriendor]

Well ... maybe we can hope for a $40 'collector's edition' with the patch included :D

Well, since JoWood acquired DreamCatcher a while back, this almost seems like a definite possibility if DreamCatcher shared some of their "dirty little tricks" with JoWood :D .

[GhanBuriGhan]

Initial reaction is very :(

My take on it is that PB couldn't meet the demands for free so needed an add-on/expansion to help fund it. Maybe JoWood wanted the patch first, then an expansion, or maybe they didn't want an expansion at all. Bit of a catch 22.

Ultimately, I'd be very surpised if at least some elements of a patch didn't make it out eventually, though I think the scope might be turned down and the testing would obviously be reduced. It may take a while for it to come out tho..

Something like that, yeah. Sounds like Jowood didn't want to fund the patch alongside whatever "next project" they wanted PB to work on, and PB felt unable to do a patch of the scale they felt necessary without such additional funding. Which means that Jowood considers the Gothic brand damaged goods now after G3.

This will be a difficult situation for PB, and will at the very least delay the patch considerably - until they can secure funding from a new Publisher. What a mess.

[txa1265]

Well, since JoWood acquired DreamCatcher a while back, this almost seems like a definite possibility if DreamCatcher shared some of their "dirty little tricks" with JoWood :D .

That was exactly what I had thought about when Gorath mentioned things getting ugly ...

[kalniel]

Something like that, yeah. Sounds like Jowood didn't want to fund the patch alongside whatever "next project" they wanted PB to work on, and PB felt unable to do a patch of the scale they felt necessary without such additional funding. Which means that Jowood considers the Gothic brand damaged goods now after G3.

I don't think they do, infact they tout it a lot in their corporate analysis:

Another leverage effect is the release of upcoming
titles on multiple platforms. Titles from other companies, such
as “The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion 4” proved that this is the right
method to reach more gamers, thereby increasing the value of
the brand along with respective revenues.
.
.
JoWooD management also indicated that it is already working
on a concept for Gothic on next-Gen.
Gothic is one of JoWooD’s strongest brand and the third part
was the most successful title in the history of the company with
very good reviews from the special-interest media and its
community.
It seems like they actually saw the potential for a console version of Gothic to reach especially the US market which they targeted for growth potential.

[Moriendor]

Something like that, yeah. Sounds like Jowood didn't want to fund the patch alongside whatever "next project" they wanted PB to work on, and PB felt unable to do a patch of the scale they felt necessary without such additional funding. Which means that Jowood considers the Gothic brand damaged goods now after G3.

This will be a difficult situation for PB, and will at the very least delay the patch considerably - until they can secure funding from a new Publisher. What a mess.

Well, around X-mas 2006 (after patch 1.12) they more or less promised to pull off the patch all by themselves. There was no "if"... like "if we can raise enough money" or anything like that.

In fact, KaiRo from PB said in an interview (http://www.worldofgothic.de/gothic3/index.php?go=interview15) back then...

There are always anxious people in the community asking if we have abandoned the development of patches for Gothic III. That is naturally not the case and we would betray ourselves and our past company policy if we would leave you with an unfinished game. The majority of the team is still busy working on Gothic III while only a few of us are looking into new future projects and are discussing ideas and feasibility which is already a very important thing to do since it wouldn't be good if all of the other team members would end up idling as soon as work on Gothic III has finally been completed.

Note to PB: Not only have you flat out lied in this statement but you guys have betrayed yourselves and your company policy.

[chamr]

Knew something didn't sound right. What a shame. We can only hope they don't flush all that work down the toilet, but instead find a way to get it out the door. Good luck, PB.

[Wulf]

O.k, so the storm has broken but which route will Piranha Bytes take now....what are the options...could a ray of sunshine emerge from behind those big dark clouds?

[Squeek]

Add this to the list of reasons why it's bad business to release software early. At this point somebody's going to have to do the right thing just because it's the right thing to do. Maybe that press release will prod someone into action.

[Wulf]

Right on Squeek....and there are yet more tasty announcements to come....i wait with baited breath.:sweatdrop:

[Amasius]

As for AoD and TBH, I don't get why you'd give them a free pass (assuming you'd have to when the time comes). You want to draw a line on quality -- so draw it.
I'm willing to make an exeption for indie devs because they represent a development I want to support. (And I expect them to be less buggy than RPGs from big companys. Maybe thats wishful thinking, time will tell, but the only almost bugfree RPGs I've played in the last years are from Spiderweb. Indies are not depending on publishers so they have less pressure to release an unfinished product.)

I think there are some trends in the genre (= RPGs but not action RPGs or MMORPGs) - a few single player RPGs from big devs like Bioware and Bethesda now and then and a rise of indie devs, while developers of medium size demise. (I hope that the Witcher will be an exeption because CD Project are self financed and therefore independent from publishers like JoWood or Atari.)

The line on quality I draw is not only about how polished a game is but also about the game by itself. The big houses want to sell millions of copies and hence they have to meet the expectations of the mass market. That means shiny graphics, extensive voice acting and to avoid everything that may frustrate some potential customers. The result are streamlined games like Oblivion and these are not my kind of games. (Heh, I feel like part of a minority, someone should save us. ;)) After all I've heard/read G3 wasn't that bad in this regard (from my point of view), but maybe thats part of their problem, at least for the US market?

[Ragon der Magier]

Well, around X-mas 2006 (after patch 1.12) they more or less promised to pull off the patch all by themselves. There was no "if"... like "if we can raise enough money" or anything like that.

In fact, KaiRo from PB said in an interview (http://www.worldofgothic.de/gothic3/index.php?go=interview15) back then...

There are always anxious people in the community asking if we have abandoned the development of patches for Gothic III. That is naturally not the case and we would betray ourselves and our past company policy if we would leave you with an unfinished game. The majority of the team is still busy working on Gothic III while only a few of us are looking into new future projects and are discussing ideas and feasibility which is already a very important thing to do since it wouldn't be good if all of the other team members would end up idling as soon as work on Gothic III has finally been completed.


Note to PB: Not only have you flat out lied in this statement but you guys have betrayed yourselves and your company policy.


Sorry mate - but now you´re going a bit overboard.

There´s really nothing evident in the accompanying statement you posted for the kind of bold claim you make here.

It´s easy to pull out such a judgement with the hindsight we just gained today, however (regardless of what your gut feeling might have told you beforehand already for weeks, it was not accertained knowledge).
To insinuate that PB would have had any kind of foreknowledge on how things now finally have turned out back then already when they made this statement is wild guessing and ill-spirited speculation.

If you want to accuse them of anything, you can probably bash their naivety
(s.th. in the theme of a young company with too early success, misleading them to not re-adjust in time to the bigger challenges that were to come with that, aka G3 and it's quite screwed development).

There can be no talk of "flat out lies" from side of PB in any case, though.
If anything, they probably "betrayed" themselves before anybody else.

Come on, Moe you know better than that.
Re-invoke your ambition for some more decent journalism again (at least that´s how i always received the way RPGDot/RPGWatch positioned themselves compared to other free gaming media), please.


Save of that this is of course no verdict on who´s to blame for the "G3 misery" as we have it know.
In my eyes they both screwed it up big time, each of them in their own department
(PB in the dev and their ill-fated approach to create a brandnew, untested and feature-laden engine while vastly expanding the content scale at the same time backed with an understaffed team; Jowood in the marketing and the dishonest PR when it came to handle the no longer to hide shortcomings of the release - threatening game mags into not publishing reviews that were not in their favour - brrrr!).


Ragon, der Magier

[Gorath]

Come on, Moe you know better than that.
Re-invoke your ambition for some more decent journalism again (at least that´s how i always received the way RPGDot/RPGWatch positioned themselves compared to other free gaming media), please.

Mo left our team 1.5 years ago. Whatever opinion he expressed is his own.

[Moriendor]

Exactly. I can say anything I want just like any other old troll out there :biggrin: .
Besides, Ragon, please... read the interview (http://www.worldofgothic.de/gothic3/index.php?go=interview15) (all of it) and pay attention to what KaiRo from PB said. He said that they no longer want to make empty/false promises. And then he said right after that what I quoted above. He lied. Whichever way you put it or want to twist and turn it. Even the blindest PB fanboy would have to acknowledge that KaiRo flat out lied and that they have "betrayed themselves and their company policy". Those are his words, not mine. It's not my fault that he was stupid enough to (once again) make promises that they could not keep.

[Gorath]

It´s only a lie if he had reasons to assume the negotations wouldn´t come to a positive conclusion. They had made 3 projects with JoWooD. If a 4th was in danger it´s hard to believe somebody outside of the management was aware of it.

[Moriendor]

It´s only a lie if he had reasons to assume the negotations wouldn´t come to a positive conclusion. They had made 3 projects with JoWooD. If a 4th was in danger it´s hard to believe somebody outside of the management was aware of it.

A lie is a lie :) . He didn't have to say what he said. It was his choice to say what he did say in that interview and if he chose to say things (especially during a "hot phase" which it undoubtedly was back then) that were not backed up by management, then he must be either incredibly crazy or incredibly retarded. He must have fully well known after all the post-release disaster that anything he says is going to be examined very carefully.
To say that they no longer want to make false promises and then to say what I quoted above means that all he said in that interview were promises that they were planning to keep for a change. Just read the interview. He even promised in the next paragraph after the one I quoted that the patch would address the balancing and fix all the engine bugs.
So... where is that patch? Did I miss that they posted the link in the meantime? ;)
No. I didn't. It's all one fat lie until they deliver that patch. And don't even get me started on all the pre-release hype and all of the unkept promises that were made by KaiRo & co back then. I'm extremely disappointed in PB. Amateurs. All of them. Good riddance! :biggrin:

[Thaurin]

There we go again. Anger aside, it's not helping to just blame baseless things on PB. It's business and it went sour. No one wanted things to go that way and they probably did not expect it (or had false hope). Nobody (as far as I can tell) maliciously lied and tried to deceive the community when they made such statements in interviews. Really, what good does it do to think that? I've never understood the trolls. What makes you so sure that they did not intend to keep their promises, even if they could have known it would be hard (or even impossible)? Especially if they really care for the franchise and community. That'll blind you easily.

("Company X doesn't care about Y!" "Company X just wants our money!" "I'll never buy another product from company X or publisher Y!")

Get a life. :rolleyes:

[Gorath]

Not Ralf. Remember how he got the public opinion on PBs side. ;)

[Corwin]

I think this will end in a long drawn out legal fight that could easily destroy both companies!! That would be a pity.

[JDR13]

Despite all the anger towards PB over Gothic 3, don't forget the fact that they created 2 of the best rpg's in pc history with Gothic's 1&2. I'm sure it wasn't their intention to create the turd that Gothic 3 ended up being.

[Corwin]

I don't think of G3 as a turd!! I LIKE the game, despite its flaws; many of which have been addressed!!

[Bleh]

I think the best thing Piranha Bytes could do, is releasing the patch if there is one according to the rumors I read on the official jowood forum and here in some other thread.

Now that JW and PB are split, PB is probably looking for a new publisher. But they also said that they can’t release a patch under these circumstances. I think that’s wrong. NOW is actually the best time to release the patch if of course the patch fixes the engine-related problems and bugs and add the missing content to the game, essentially fixing the game to the state where it should have been in the first place.

Now I think PB doesn’t want to release a patch because in a short-term period they gain nothing, no money or funds. They will only strengthen the “enemy” and maybe they don’t want to do that. And keep the patch as leverage over JW. Personally I don’t like if the patch was used in that manner during negotiations. We, as paying customers, deserve a patch so that we can play the game, they promised to deliver.

But if PB can indeed launch a patch then they are in much better negotiating strength then now. In negotiations I think companies will look for the things the other company can do best and assess the talent of the people working for the company and use it to see if it’s interesting for them to invest in that company. The latest project which they are going to analyze for PB is G3. At the moment it still isn’t what it should have been. Skills are missing (like masterthief, firemage, make poison, …), there are still some enginebugs and other problems.
The engine of Gothic 3 is a decent one given enough energy and PB actually build it themselves. If PB can fix all problems with the engine then they can say that the problems that haunt G3 were the fault of JW pushing them to release an unfinished product. But that they managed to fix all the bugs with the last patch (like the one they can’t release at the moment, I don’t mean patch 1.12). Then they can show off with a finished G3, stable and fun to play.

And I also like to give an idea of a possible future publisher. Maybe PB should contact Gamecock Media Group (http://www.gamecockmedia.com/). They are a publisher who gives developers a chance to build the game that they want to build. And developers keep the rights of all their intellectual property (IP). The only thing they ask is if a developer wants to do a sequel then that sequel has to be done with Gamecock Media Group unless they don’t want to publish a sequel then the developer can go to another publisher. But the decision to make a sequel rests solely with the developers. Gamecock doesn’t decide to make sequels. I think such a publisher is something PB really needs to make games like Gothic.

And maybe someone with connections to PB could translate and relay the info to PB.

Bleh

[JDR13]

I don't think of G3 as a turd!! I LIKE the game, despite its flaws; many of which have been addressed!!

It's a turd when compared to Gothic's 1&2

[Chekote]

#$%@& !@%$ **%$%#!@ @#@!% >:( >:(

[txa1265]

It's a turd when compared to Gothic's 1&2

I still wouldn't call it a turd - a lesser game, certainly, but not a turd. I *like* Gothic 3, but I LOVE Gothic 1 &2.

[mudsling3]

If the patch is finished or near it, PB should get it out just for the fans. It would be a great PR victory.

[Gorath]

For PB or JoWooD? ;)

[Bleh]

In the longrun for PB.

Because the developers, and not the publishers, are remembered for their games. If G3 keeps the state it is in, unfinished and still missing a few skills, this will haunt PB for the rest of their lives. It won't matter if they start creating bugfree code for other games. People will think twice before buying a new game from PB when G3 doesn't get fixed.

[aries100]

PB should really really fast release the (uber) patch on which they have been working. Rumours etc. in the computer business really can 'kill' a company. And by that I mean if it gets around that PB didn't release the (final) patch for G3, then my guess would be that PB would have a really really hard time finding a publisher for their next project (game).

And their next project, or the add-on for G3, should really be downloadable via Steam...

[Moriendor]

In the longrun for PB.

I don't think that there is a "long run" for PB to be honest. They are completely foxtrot-uniform-charlie-kilo'ed at the moment. If what that JoWood dude (Stefan Berger) said in that interview at PC Games is true that JoWood is the sole owner of the Gothic IP with the exception of the rights to Gothic I (Berger could be bluffing, of course, but if it's true...) then PB is pretty much out of business.
Sure, there'll be a lawsuit over it all and maybe PB will even win the thing in 2009 or whenever its outcome is finally set in stone but until then they got... pretty much nothing. Except for Gothic I.

This makes Gorath's theory that they could be making a Gothic I remake (relatively quick... based on the remnants of whatever tech/assets they own) just to stay afloat a definite possibility if they can secure funding (big, fat IF) but other signs indicate that they are closing shop.

For example, Ralf (the art director) created a little diary with photos about a typical work day at PB. This is probably for nostalgic reasons because he knows that they might never get together or work together like that again. So the diary will always be a nice memory for everyone who is/was working there and for the community.

Plus, they (Ralf and KaiRo) have announced to make farewell posts (or "see you soon" posts as they put it) at World of Gothic in the very near future.
Of course, there's also still the 0.0000001% chance that a publisher who just happens to be looking for a studio with free capacities at the moment, rings them up, and that they can start to work on a new project tomorrow (yeah fat chance).

So... basically... to put it in the words of the one and only Andrea Bocelli, it might be Time To Say Good-Bye. We'll see...

[Stanza]

To add a bit more to what our newer, angrier Moe just said...

PB is without a publisher, so they have no income. They are presently living off whatever cash they have sitting in the bank, with no hope for revenue from G3. Unless their parent company (if that's what Pluto 13 is) has deep pockets, they are now paying for everyone's salary from whatever is left in the bank.

This is the same situation Troika was in after Bloodlines shipped. If a small dev house does not have a publisher and a new game lined up when their current game ships, they either pay everyone from existing funds, or they lay almost everyone off. Given the protracted time since G3 shipped and the assumption that PB is not getting any new revenue (or development funds from JoWood for a patch), their cash reserves are likely running dry.

At this point, they know exactly how long they can go before they run out of cash. I've heard it takes an average of 6 months to land a new project for a dev house. Since they were in negotiation with JoWood, they were probably not looking for anyone else to publish with them. Unless they have enough funds to keep everyone on the payroll for the next 6+ months until they land a new project, they have to lay everyone off.

I haven't been paying attention to their financial/business info (and it's probably all in German), but they're basically doomed at this point. There's only a few options:

1) Deep pockets: if they have enough in the bank, they can try to weather out the storm until something new comes along. Unlikely, since they're small. Does Pluto 13 have cash reserves? I don't know.

2) New publisher swoops in within the next few weeks and starts them on a new project. This is a crap shoot, but their best bet for survival.

3) Lay off 90% of the workforce, keep a few key people (sadly, this usually means managers), try to hold it together for 6-12 months, land a new project, then build a whole new team, and try to hire back any available people.

4) Call it quiters, lay everyone off, and put a bullet in the horse. It's all over.

5) Standard corporate variation halfway between 3) and 4) -- Declare PB out of business, a few key people shop around for something new, and form a whole new company a year or so down the road, usually trying to hire back some of the team (which seldom works, since by that time everyone's moved on to new pastures, and you only get back the ones who hate their new jobs). This has the advantage of dry-cleaning your image, since it means a new corporate name, while often retaining the same corporate mismanagement problems that hurt the company the first time around. (Not implying PB was/wasn't mismanaged, but in general if it was there the first time around, it's still there the second time around.)

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I'm still kind of speechless, although I know the news since yesterday.

The sentence that popped instantly into my mind was :

"Delusions Of Grandeur".



P.S. : I'm still waiting for roqua writing "Even more lies !!!"

[Gorath]

Mo,

Berger didn´t say JoWooD owns the Gothic franchise. He carefully avoided to answer the real question by stating the obvious: "JoWooD has all rights in the existing Gothic series except the first Gothic."
Of course! DTP as successor to Shoebox own #1, JoWooD funded #s 2 &3.
This says nothing about future games.
It´s a fact that the brand belongs to PB. Which and how many rights PB had to grant to JoWooD in their publishing contracts is unknown to the public.

DTP as the biggest investor in German teams and owner of the Gothic 1 rights would be the perfect choice to fund a Gothic remake. I doubt if such a project is attractive to PB though. If I was in PB´s shoes, had the rights to make Gothic games and to use the Genome engine this would be exactly what I would be doing. Make a great Gothic game faster than JoWooD can do it. Let everyone know who is the original.

Stanza,
the 6th option: PB already has another publisher for a new IP.

Bleh,
they certainly know about Gamecock. If that´s an option they´ll consider it.

Chekote,
the forum language is English, not French. ;)

[aries100]

I don't think Jowood holds they key or the rights to the Gothic IP. There have been several posts on both jowood's as well as WOG's forums that stated that PB still owned 'die Rechte' (IP?) to Gothic, not Jowood. Jowood could, however, own some form of copyright brand to Gothic after Jowoods funding of PB when Phenomedia went belly up...(and PB got restructured) in 2002. ( Info here: http://www.pluto13.de/index.php?navtarget=2&lang=en ) While PB still would hold the rights to the assets, the software, the source code etc. etc. But let's see how it goes...

I just have a very uneasy feeling about this...a feeling that says that maybe Jowood wanted to break with PB and then somehow 'forced' PB to make a break with Jowood. I hope this is not the case, though.

As for the patch, I hope that this doesn't mean that PB would be forced to make a Troika (as Alrik F. desribes). That would be very sad indeed :( . If they do however, I hope that PB do somehow let the patch 'leak' or 'slip' out on the internet somehow. This would mean that talented fans would be able to finish the patch. But then again, PB might be forced to hand their work over to Jowood.

The best outcome of this would really be if a court decided that PB had to (or must) release the patch while Jowood must pay PB for their work (on the patch).

ETA:
Gorath:
I'd go with # 6, too:

PB already has a publisher for a brandnew IP. (which may or may not be an rpg game, but I sure hope it will be an RPG game, though :) ). To me, this is the only logical conclusion as to why PB would part ways from Jowood right now. That PB in the last 5-6 months or so indeed have looked around, and found another publisher...

[Moriendor]

Mo,

Berger didn´t say JoWooD owns the Gothic franchise. He carefully avoided to answer the real question by stating the obvious: "JoWooD has all rights in the existing Gothic series except the first Gothic."

I know, I know... that's why I said IF it is true what Berger is saying :) . But even if it isn't... what good is it going to do PB right now? Not much. They'll have looong run out of money before a court makes a decision about who has the rights to develop games under the Gothic brand. Even if PB were allowed to develop games under the Gothic brand starting today, what good would that do them without a publisher who funds the development?

And as Stanza pointed out, I also don't think that they could conclude negotiations with a new publisher before running out of money. Those negotiations would probably take several weeks/months. Outcome uncertain.

That's just too risky for the PB head honcho(s). If I were them/him (in case Rüve really is the sole CEO), I'd put the company on ice right now (fire everyone, close shop) to cut the expenses back to zero and then I'd begin to hope and pray for the slim 0.0001% chance of some magical resurrection but I don't really see how "they" (not really "they" since the original employees will probably never get together again or make a return anyway) would be able to come back unless a court would declare them to be the legitimate owners of the Gothic IP.

Seriously, I'm pretty sure PB is done unless some unforeseen miracle turn of events pops up out of nowhere.

[Gorath]

We´ll know soon what´s up with PB. Firing everybody won´t be easy, since the Pluto 13 page says most of the team is co-owner of the company.

[Dhruin]

Unless their parent company (if that's what Pluto 13 is) has deep pockets, they are now paying for everyone's salary from whatever is left in the bank.

My memory is hazy (Gorath and Mo will remember) but basically Pluto 13 is PB...they aren't some big corporate owner. As I recall, PB combined with some other studios and labels through a share-swap deal to form Phenomedia in the late '90s or so. When Phenomedia collapsed, key PB employees reformed as Pluto 13 with these key staffers "buying in" to form the new company and using "Piranha Bytes" as the brand label Pluto 13 releases titled under.

Obviously I don't know anything about their finances but I imagine they are simply a group of individuals with no "deep pockets", other than to second mortgage their houses or raid their retirement portfolios.

[Gorath]

Yes, Pluto 13 is the company and Piranha Bytes their label. Their history can be looked up on the Pluto 13 homepage.

[mudsling3]

For PB or JoWooD? ;)

It's a win-win for both, more important for PB if they plan to stay tegether.