Fallout 3 - Details Emerge

[Dhruin]

Well, with July's Game Informer reaching a few people, Fallout 3 details are starting to emerge. Briosafreak's excellent Fallout 3 blog (http://fallout3.wordpress.com/) has picked up a post from a member of the NeoGAF forums (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=161136&page=11) that seems a good summary and most of the details are corroborated by short articles at CVG (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=166056) and Joystiq (http://www.joystiq.com/2007/06/15/fallout-3-gameplay-details-revealed/) so let's run with that:
The article is based on an hour long demo GI was given. I’ll list the high points
- Game runs on an evolved version of the Oblivion engine. Third person view has been reworked since the verdict was that the Oblivion version sucked balls.
- Game starts with your birth and your mother’s death in a vault hospital. This is essentially the character customization part of the game. Your father hands you up to have your DNA analyzed and you get to pick out all your character traits. Your dad takes off his mask to reveal similar traits to the ones you picked.
- You grow up in the vault and as you grow you get your first book titled “You’re Special” which allows you to choose you baseline stats for each of your 7 primary aptitudes. You’ll also get your first weapons and wrist computer (menu) as you get older and take tests to determine the initial layout of your skills and traits.
- Every aspect of character creation is based on S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system. Of your 14 skills you can tag 3 to grow at a faster rate than the rest as you level up.
- Battle system is called the Vault-tec Assisted Targeting System (V.A.T.S.). The article states. “While you’ll certainly be able to tackle enemies in real time using first person shooting, V.A.T.S. lets players pause time and select a target at their leisure”. Battle system still uses action points, but once you’ve used them up you’ll still be able to fight targets in real time while they charge back up.
- Game is still violent and gory. One of the featured screens is of a guy’s head exploding in super gory detail. Apparently all gory deaths in the game will be in slow motion.
- More than one way to play the game. Go balls out and kill people, or sneak past situations, or perhaps talk your way out of situations.
- Enemies can target you just like you can target them, so you can get injured in very specific points on you body. This in addition to an all new health/radiation system. This new system has you measuring how radiated certain things (like water) are and how they affect you when you consume them.
- Karma system returns[…]
-Yeah once you’re in the V.A.T.S. system every combat move you make uses AP. The amount of AP is based on your agility rating. So things like targeting specific areas etc use AP. Also things like distance etc factor into your hit % while you’re in the V.A.T.S. system.
At least that’s how it reads.[…]
-Yeah the article is chock full of screens, but I can’t post them =(
They have some really great environment shots, Some screens of the inside of Vault 101, and a really awesome shot of a first person encounter with a super mutant and another where the main character has a weapon called “The Fatman” which is a handheld nuclear catapult.
Think post apocalyptic oblivion and you’re right about there in terms of graphics.[…]
-It seems that outside of the VATS system everything is real time. The only time the game pauses is when you enter the VATS system and start using AP and issuing commands. The article doesn’t really say much more than that, but they do say that the game is geared more towards a role-playing turn based style as opposed to a twitch gaming style of play.
-It doesn’t say anything specifically about party members, but there’s a section that talks about how integral NPC’s are to the game, and that a lot of the progress in the game will be made via quests.
EDIT. A little caption under a screen shot says you’ll be able to hire henchmen to help you out but this is definitely not a party based game. Also Bethesda confirms that there’ll be a dog in the game.
-As a matter of fact they do. The game does not scale like oblivion, so if you enter a high level area expect to be promptly murdered.
Also, I just read a little caption.
Level cap is 20.
Definite ending to the game, but there are 9 - 12 possible endings.
-It is XP based. Most of your XP comes from quests.[…]
More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=5327)

[JDR13]

Ha ha, I already posted this:)

[txa1265]

Ha ha, I already posted this:)

I know ... we need to start discussing it here - maybe someone can merge the info from the other thread in here?

[Brother None]

I know ... we need to start discussing it here - maybe someone can merge the info from the other thread in here?

I think you better make a new newspost (http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36877), deserving a new discussion

[JDR13]

You're right, it needs to be in this forum. I would have placed it here to begin with if I had the access.

[Lucky Day]

- Game is still violent and gory. One of the featured screens is of a guy’s head exploding in super gory detail. Apparently all gory deaths in the game will be in slow motion.


boy, I hope we get a chance to turn this off like we did with the first two. I'm getting less and less thrilled about this game.

[Brother None]

Uh, hey, guys, the scans of the original article are here (http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36877), no need to work from someone's summary anymore

Nobody going to newspost? No?

[Dhruin]

1. I'm at work. Different timezones. ;)
2. I know it's a bit of a vague line but I don't generally link straight to scans of new magazine articles. I don't mind it being in the forums (and it's here now - and thanks :) ) but I probably won't do an "official" news post.

----------

So, about the game...

I need to see this VATS thing in action to understand it properly.

[JDR13]

I have to admit, some of those scans look promising. Of course, we won't know about the actual gameplay for a long time.

[bjon045]

You should see the reaction on NMA, they are acting like the world is over! Lot's of "Oblivion with guns" when it looks like nothing of the sorts....

[GhanBuriGhan]

You should see the reaction on NMA, they are acting like the world is over! Lot's of "Oblivion with guns" when it looks like nothing of the sorts....

Well a lot of it is the dissapointement with the perspective and the combat system I am sure. They made it clear all along that that is a gamebreaker for many of them. If the stuff on choice and consequences, better NPCs, and multiple endings turns out true, then it would be quite a positive surprise, for me personally.
The chargen intro sequence sounds a bit gimmicky and silly though, as does the nuclear catapult. Environment screens look good.

[JemyM]

-It doesn’t say anything specifically about party members, but there’s a section that talks about how integral NPC’s are to the game, and that a lot of the progress in the game will be made via quests.
EDIT. A little caption under a screen shot says you’ll be able to hire henchmen to help you out but this is definitely not a party based game. Also Bethesda confirms that there’ll be a dog in the game.

That was the most vital part for me and it seems they skipped it :(

That the game will feature nine-twelve endings is good news however.

[Prime Junta]

Yah, well, we all know how thrilled NMA has been about the whole project. Once more, I can't believe how someone in this day and age can have been thinking it might be isometric and turn-based.

If the game turns out like what the article promises (genuinely branching questlines, moral choices with consequences, NPC's that are characters with some depth rather than painted stick quest-o-mats) I will be very impressed indeed. (OTOH Bethsoft made Radiant AI sound really impressive too, when in reality it turned out to be... not quite.)

I'm not sure I like the sound of the slo-mo gore, though. Having ridiculously huge explosions of blood 'n guts lovingly rendered in 640 x 480 cartoon sprites is funny; having the same lovingly rendered in photorealistic 3D is a different matter. In poor taste, perhaps.

Come to think of it, this is the second preview I've read recently where I've been nodding sagely at all the right noises it makes only to suddenly hit a note that jars.

"Targeted for the adult gamer, mm-hm, moral choices, yup, ambiguity, uh-huh, branching storylines, nice, multiple character development choices, great, many solutions to quests, good, collect naughty postcards by seducing wenches... uh, what?"

[abbaon]

Once you complete all your actions in V.A.T.S. you can continue to attack in real time, but this will dramatically slow the recharge of your action points, thereby encouraging tactical targeting over constant twitch shooting.
If AP recharge really gets "dramatically slower" when you attack in real time, you won't be able to switch between the two attack modes continuously. You'll either play it as an FPS, with occasional pausing for special attacks, or you'll use AP attacks exclusively. You'll move and dodge in real time but you won't have to aim if you don't want to.

Edit: Although I have no idea why you'd allow a die roll to decide the outcome of an action when you could use your own skill.

[JDR13]

To be honest (*ducks to avoid stones*) I'm glad they're doing it in first person. I've always wondered what it would be like to explore in Fallout using a FPS view. It will be interesting to see if they can pull it off successfully, but if they do, the game should be incredible.

The only drawback about first-person is obviously you're not going to have direct control over the npc's\henchmen that are helping you, but we didn't have that ability in FO1 or 2 anyways. I wonder if they're going to incorporate some type of squad based command system to be able to give simple orders to your henchmen.

[Dez]

Overall it feels like a fallout unlike the trailer which let me totally cold. the signs of hype infection are all over me...hurry I must repeat "radian a.i, radian a.i, radiant a.i..." Ah now feeling better..emm what was I saying. Oh yes. if the stuff about moral choises and consequences, quality dialog&npcs, different endings and other old school stuff are true, then i'm a happy gamer.

And what comes to NMA..did anyone honestly expect any other reaction from them? I mean even if it had been isometric and turn-based they would have found something to whine nonetheless. Its a circle that has no end. =)

And my opinion.. It will be intresting to see how fallout works from 1:st person.. Regarding the new combat system, Not much can be told yet. Obviously we all are so used to old system and thus can't imagine anything replacing it. I'll judge it when i play it.

[Corwin]

If AP recharge really gets "dramatically slower" when you attack in real time, you won't be able to switch between the two attack modes continuously. You'll either play it as an FPS, with occasional pausing for special attacks, or you'll use AP attacks exclusively. You'll move and dodge in real time but you won't have to aim if you don't want to.

Edit: Although I have no idea why you'd allow a die roll to decide the outcome of an action when you could use your own skill.

How about if your skill sucks at RT combat? I don't have fast reaction times, I play slowly and thoughtfully. By the time I react to something, my character is frequently dead!! TB suits me perfectly, FPS arcade games don't!!

[Moriendor]

How about if your skill sucks at RT combat? I don't have fast reaction times, I play slowly and thoughtfully. By the time I react to something, my character is frequently dead!! TB suits me perfectly, FPS arcade games don't!!

Don't worry, Corwin. It's Bethesda. They got this fancy old person mode that can be enabled by pulling the difficulty slider all the way to the left so you can 1-hit kill every enemy :biggrin: .

[Prime Junta]

@Corwin, why not practice some real-time combat? Get a nice shooter like Half-Life 2 and have at it. It's not that hard, it's fun, and nobody's forcing you to play in Combat God difficulty. "Easy" is there for a reason, and it doesn't always equate to "boring."

[Corwin]

Hey, it's my age, not desire!! My reflexes are just not up to it!! I'm RETIRED, work it out!!!! I don't react quickly, and I hate playing on easy mode!!!!

[guenthar]

With the way people are complaining about the combat system it is like they said that the combat system is just a rt /w p[ause and they didn't say that and they didn't really explain how V.A.T.S. works and just said that you could use V.A.T.S. to pause the game and use abilities and go back to realtime. That could be just what they said and they could be just ignoring anything turn-based since they think it world turn their readership off from the article.

[aries100]

I'm sorry to maybe burst your bubble here, I have just one thing to say:

- remember that Beth said exactly the same thing (or nearly) before Oblivion was released?? They said there would be many ways to solve quests - not true....

And what's with the cave in to action fans?? Exploding heads in bullet time (slow motion) ?? I don't want exploding heads. I want genuine quests that affect the environment, a decent story that has an interesting main quest, and some excellent, creative misc (side) quests. The 7 primary skills are taken directly from TES and such warrant the comment 'oblivion with guns'. And the whole disappearing father thing is really so overdone. And sound a lot like a certain movie series with ewoks and stuff (yes, star wars: i'm looking at you )

As for the ccombat....well... to me, at least, it sound like Bethsoft has made a choice to make a hybrid between TB and RT combat, hence no fans of either genre will be satisfied.

[The Watchman]

so... its a shooter. not a surprice, but wtf does that have to do with fallout or rpgs ?!? the only people i see liking this is the fps shitbox kiddies and they should stay the fuck away from my fallout !!

[Reyla]

Arena, Daggerfall and Morrowind were hailed as RPGs of the century then Oblivion comes out and suddenly Bethesda sucks. They tried something different with Oblivion and it did work out that well, that's all.

I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

[abbaon]

When shitbox users starts to be able to pirate, this moneytrain will hit the dirt. Meaby then we can get some devs. that actually care about gaming quality and not just mainstreaming everything into nobrain kiddie mode.
Success ?!? Treating customers like shit is a succes ? uh bugger what am i saying, beth got a new playerbase of shitbox morons who buy anything shiny. Sorry you are right, what a success, lets all solute a company thats dumbing down the genre we love (you are right from a business pov though, but im not gonna cheer at some greedy idiots).
So people are idiots for not buying PR bullshit ?!? /shrug. Meaby people wouldnt go ape over it if Pete wasnt as usual BSing around, heck people might even look forward to it if Beth wasnt notorious for dumbing down their games for braindead shitbox users.
Perfect rpg... my god, what kind of moron do you need to be to even state that. This is not even a rpg, its a kiddie game that handhold you so much, a person with an iq over 20 will puke. No wonder gaming gets worse and worse when it needs to cater to retards.
Music would be fine alot of places, but not Fallout. Not shocked though, theres 0.00001% i will like the kiddie shitbox fallout bethelda is making anyway.
so... its a shooter. not a surprice, but wtf does that have to do with fallout or rpgs ?!? the only people i see liking this is the fps shitbox kiddies and they should stay the fuck away from my fallout !!

Say something intelligent.

[Prime Junta]

@Corwin -- If you react quickly enough to be able to drive a car, you ought to be able to react quickly enough to play a shooter. It's not so much about reaction speed anyway as it is about motor control. What's wrong with playing on easy anyway?

[GhanBuriGhan]

I'm sorry to maybe burst your bubble here, I have just one thing to say:

- remember that Beth said exactly the same thing (or nearly) before Oblivion was released?? They said there would be many ways to solve quests - not true....



Not quite. They said very little about these things at all, and the little we heard was pulled out of their noses in fan interviews, mostly. They deliberately kept rather quiet and noncommittal about quests and dialogue, and It was people like me who deluded themselves on what that meant. We won't know until its out, but they have commited to considerably more RPG-ness in that first preview than in all of the Oblivion prehype. Which doesnt mean its true, or that it will be great, but it would be much harder to gloss over or wiggle out of it.

[bjon045]

What exactly is a "shitbox"? Is it a box you carry around to defaecate in?

About 3 weeks ago I read a post on the codex and it said that the game was undeniably going to be a real time first person and I posted I thought it was going to be 1st person with an optional 3rd person camera with a real time pause system and everyone there ridiculed me. I don't normally like to gloat but it looks like I was correct this time.

[Morbus]

You should see the reaction on NMA, they are acting like the world is over! Lot's of "Oblivion with guns" when it looks like nothing of the sorts....
Actually it does. It's a point-and-click-strategy/cRPG game that has become a first-person-shooter-with-slow-motion/actionRPG hybrid. It is Oblivion with guns, except for the part of choices and consequences, or so they say. Bethesda is a bunch of liars, we can't trust them for nothing. Anyway, I'm not buying this shit, but that was a given already...

[rune_74]

Well, I bet it will be good and the frwaks that are saying they are selling out and that its a first person shooter, like they thought oblivion was...well I just don't know what to say, oblivion provided alot of fun if you wanted it too...it was definately not a first person shooter.

[Morbus]

Well, I bet it will be good and the frwaks that are saying they are selling out and that its a first person shooter, like they thought oblivion was...well I just don't know what to say, oblivion provided alot of fun if you wanted it too...it was definately not a first person shooter.
A lot of fun, maybe... maybe... but no rewards whatsoever. A rewarding gameplay is what makes a game fun...

[Brother None]

No need to take the opportunity to rag on NMA again. It's not like we're being that unreasonable, Fallout as a turn-based game was a shocker when it was released, since its contemporaries were Diablo and Ultima Online. We were hoping for the same kind of daring-do from Bethesda, no such luck.

Other stuff looks good, but honestly I can't trust it (http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=712468) from at this point, I'll have to see some real stuff before I'll believe vague promises of improvement over Oblivion.

VATS just sounds like a nerfed RTwP system. I hope the description is simply mistaken or badly written, tho'

[aries100]

To me, the whole thing (FO3) looks more like STALKER than Fallout. I can't explain why, though, it is just a hunch, I have...

[bjon045]

Actually it does. It's a point-and-click-strategy/cRPG game that has become a first-person-shooter-with-slow-motion/actionRPG hybrid.

I've never heard of a first person shooter than allows you switch to a 3rd person perspective and use action points to target for you. I guess we have played different FPS games :rolleyes:.

[Brother None]

That might be why he calls it a hybrid, bjon.

Consider this, if VATS works as it is described, there's nothing to prevent twitch players to ignore APs and the pause function and play the entire game, first person, realtime, shooting away. Sound familiar?

[bjon045]

That might be why he calls it a hybrid, bjon.


He called it a FPS/actionRPG hybrid. Didn't mention being able to pause.

Consider this, if VATS works as it is described, there's nothing to prevent twitch players to ignore APs and the pause function and play the entire game, first person, realtime, shooting away. Sound familiar?

Are you saying that it real time mode all your skills and stats mean nothing? I certainly didn't get that impression from reading the article. I imagine that it will be similar to Boiling Point:RTH at the very least, probably more involved as BP did not have stats like perception.

If it does function "perfectly" and both FPS fans and slow paced gamers are satisfied then it would be a pretty good solution. Although I think it is going to pretty unlikely they are going to succeed in both as I imagine it will be a tough balancing act. It raises a lot of questions like how does the game determine whether enemies hit you or not? Is it based on the armour you are wearing or can you strafe to dodge attacks. I think we need more information before we can make a better judgment.

[guenthar]

From reading the article the realtime shooting part of the game won't be a realistic choice since they said that ammo is rare so that means if you just run around shooting then you will quickly run out of bullets but if you use aiming then you will conserve bullets so that you don't run out. You don't want to be a twitch player in this game or you will probably die very quickly.

[mute]

Not a fan follower of fallout, never finished them. Looking forward to this release!

I like it that Bethesda tries to evolve an isometric game into something new. Altough, i do not eny them reading all people pukeing over their effort, not knowing how bad or good its gonna be. Betehsda always said that they would do fallout 3 their way. (And why is always this happens for every game?)

I am game. I will buy it. Not for the name, but for the setting. I hate sequels not made by Chris Roberts anyway. Still waiting for the real wing commander 5. :)

[Jaz]

What exactly is a "shitbox"? Is it a box you carry around to defaecate in?Must be something where the four-letter words are kept. Too bad this youngster doesn't have one.

[Morbus]

I've never heard of a first person shooter than allows you switch to a 3rd person perspective and use action points to target for you. I guess we have played different FPS games :rolleyes:.
Sure .

[xSamhainx]

It's a little too early to be that defeatist about the game!

I can understand the iso crowd moping around, but what can possibly be known about the actual game's quests? Too much is being assumed here

Reminds me of the people terribly disappointed with Starcraft II, the day after it was announced!

[curiously undead]

while i have no faith in bethesda whatsoever, i don't see how an isometric fallout game could be made at this day an age. obsidian (home of some fallout devs) haven't made an isometric game 0-2 and troika's last game (creators of fallout) was a rpg and a fps. so i don't really see how anyone else would be necessarily making it isometric either (though they would surely make a better game). so those people really need to let go i think of well established ips. to me it shows some promise, which is shocking in itself, but i really think the graphics suck.

[Brother None]

Isometric has always been a peripheral demand even within the hardcore fanbase. Van Buren wasn't isometric, by its strictest definition. Still, the camera angle should support turn-based since the game should be turn-based, is the most common series of thoughts

[Corwin]

Amen Brother!!

[Dhruin]

I don't think anyone was really asking for a locked iso view. I would have thought a floating overhead camera that could be positioned for an orthagonal view would be close enough - say, like NWN2 and countless strat type titles.

Anyway, I didn't think for a minute that Bethsoft would do that. What I read was reasonably positive and I look forward to seeing more but there are far to many sticking points to embrace it with enthusiasm yet. I just don't get the VATS combat thing, the whole father thing sounds funny to me, the mutants do look like orcs (and what's with the fantasy warhammer?) and Bethsoft needs to prove they can do good branching gameplay and characters.

I did find the quest variety in Oblivion better than MW but still arrow-linear and without choice, so perhaps their writing shows some signs. We'll see.

First, I want full details on this VATS thing.

[Morbus]

It's a little too early to be that defeatist about the game!

I can understand the iso crowd moping around, but what can possibly be known about the actual game's quests? Too much is being assumed here

Reminds me of the people terribly disappointed with Starcraft II, the day after it was announced!

It's not only the combat. For me, at least, there's still a slim hope about that. It's about the setting too: the tickets bot "joke" was just retard and a way too forced. The nuclear cars are just STUPID and uncanon... The hand-held nuclear device is not particularly brilliant either. Mindless killing of city is just stupid. Mutants everywhere... 200 years after the war?! Brotherhood of Steel in the east? One can also complain about there being only 14 skills (there should be 40!!! it's next-generation right?!) or the dumbed down small gameworld... All in all, it's not JUST the combat... Unfortunately but not surprisingly...

[xSamhainx]

Have you played the game? Read the review of someone who's beaten the game? a beta, maybe? We're like a year away from release here. That's what I'm sayin.

[Brother None]

Have you played the game? Read the review of someone who's beaten the game? a beta, maybe? We're like a year away from release here. That's what I'm sayin.

Yip, that's why it's nice that people are showing Bethesda how much they dislike some of these ideas (VATS doesn't sound good, but it might be better than it sounds, the supermutants and strange usage of nukular explosions are odd), time enough from them to change it, then.

[BillSeurer]

The nuclear cars are just STUPID and uncanon.

So it was OK for them to have nuclear powered powered armor but no one ever figured out "Gee, we could power OTHER things with the same tech!"

[bjon045]

Fallout 2 had nuclear powered cars i.e. your car took fusion cells.

[Prime Junta]

It's not only the combat. For me, at least, there's still a slim hope about that. It's about the setting too: the tickets bot "joke" was just retard and a way too forced.

Unlike the refined, subtle humor about Brahmin balls and exploding loos, I suppose? Seriously, did you like *every* joke in FO and FO2?

The nuclear cars are just STUPID and uncanon...

Stupid is a matter of opinion, but they're canon -- your car in FO2 was nuclear.

The hand-held nuclear device is not particularly brilliant either.

A bit early to say. If you have one and unlimited ammunition for it, yeah, it's kinda dumb. OTOH if it's a plot device, it might work. Depends on the plot.

Mindless killing of city is just stupid.

I agree. How do you know there will be mindless killing of city?

Mutants everywhere... 200 years after the war?! Brotherhood of Steel in the east?

A lot can happen in 200 years. Mutants can die out, be revived, be further mutated, spread, whatever. The BoS could die out, split into a number of factions, expand, restore civilization, be taken over by mutants, or whatever. To my recollection, FO2 did not end with the earth exploding (again). Having the game set in California 200 years later with nothing changed would have been even dumber.

Speaking of dumb, what are your thoughts on New Reno?

One can also complain about there being only 14 skills (there should be 40!!! it's next-generation right?!)

Yah, more is always better.

or the dumbed down small gameworld...

(1) You know it's "dumbed down" because...?

(2) Most of FO's and FO2's world was empty. There was nothing in the wasteland but random encounters. The traveling minigame was cute, but it would really have made no significant difference to the gameplay if it had been a vanilla fast travel system. If FO3's world is "only slightly smaller than Oblivion's" your definition of "small" must be pretty stretchy.

All in all, it's not JUST the combat... Unfortunately but not surprisingly...

All in all, you're foaming at the mouth. Unfortunately but not surprisingly.

I have my doubts about FO3 too, but so far Bethsoft has been making (mostly) the right noises: branching, mutually exclusive questlines, multiple solutions, moral choices with consequences, NPC's that are actually written up as characters instead of quest-o-mats, 1950's retro-futurist design. I don't know if they have the taste and skill to pull it off. However, your slagging off on the few scraps of information we have is just as juvenile as some fanboi drooling "teh best game evar!" on the Bethsoft boards.

[bjon045]

If he didn't know the car in FO2 was nuclear powered then it makes me wonder if he has even played FO2. I suspect we have a troll here.

[aries100]

My main concern right now is the VATS combat system which, according to the GI-article, sounds optional, meaning that the RT crowd just can click away with the A-button, while the TB crowd gets a kind of 'dumbed down?' TB option, much like CTB combat option in Tactics??

When I say 'dumbed down' I mean that it is neither a real RT system nor a real TB system, but sort a hybrid thingie. It could work, though, but then, it lies in how it's done, in the execution of this VATS-system.

I like the mutually exclusive questlines, but so far, from the GI article all we have seen is that we will get a quest to arm a disarmed nuclear bomb :roll: This could of course, just be an example, but there still doesn't seem to be any way to turn down quests - at all, at least according to the GI article.

If the moral choices limits themselves to 'hey, if I take this questline, my karma will be 'good' but if I take this questline my karma might be 'bad', then, to me, this isn't a moral choice at all. It is just choosing a different questline that will lead to different karma standing (such as TES fame & infamy rating) within the game.

I don't like there's supermutants everywhere (apparently) nor do I like that the BoS seems integral to the main quest, since according to the GI article, the BoS collects you, the main character, at a subway station :roll: What's up with that?? (the BoS in the role of heroes?? or something like that).

As for the nuclear powered car, and the remade PIPBOY 3000, I have no problem with this. I have a problem with Fallout 3 trying to compete with tactical shooters like Gears of War and STALKER which I think it does.

I can't tell you exactly why I have this feeling, it is just something I do - especially after seeing the screenshots and reading the GI-article. It seems to that Bethsoft also is continuing their tradition started with Oblivion for making an interactive simulated world. I want a game - not FALLOUT 3: The GTA version.

Don't get me wrong, though. I would love to see a post-apoc game from Bethesda a la STALKER. By this I mean an independent IP that they have developed themselves, not them buying a game IP like Fallout, and then making a Fallout game exactly like STALKER, calling it Fallout 3...

In short, I want a Fallout game, not STALKER 2 - from Bethesda...

[Asbjoern]

Yip, that's why it's nice that people are showing Bethesda how much they dislike some of these ideas (VATS doesn't sound good, but it might be better than it sounds, the supermutants and strange usage of nukular explosions are odd), time enough from them to change it, then.

And how can we judge the quality of their design decisions from some vague descriptions and a couple of screenshots?
And should Bethesda listen to fans during development? Doesn't that undermine the artistic process?

[bjon045]

I don't like there's supermutants everywhere (apparently)

I think there has always been a lot of supermutants as you could fight unlimited amounts of them in both Fallout 1 and 2. Fallout tactics already had supermutants making it to the east of the USA.

[Unre]

And how can we judge the quality of their design decisions from some vague descriptions and a couple of screenshots?
And should Bethesda listen to fans during development? Doesn't that undermine the artistic process?

I agree it's too early but they are odd, which makes some fanboys wonder if they are for showy graphical effect: Time will tell.

What disturbs me is that they use the name "fatman". The name is not a joke for the perished and the survivors at Nagasaki.

[Prime Junta]

I don't think the entire premise of Fallout is very funny to the survivors of Nagasaki.

Or perhaps it is: laughter isn't a bad way to deal with death and destruction. I certainly do.

[Brother None]

Fallout 2 had nuclear powered cars i.e. your car took fusion cells.

Indeed. And do you imagine the pre-war Fallout world was full of car crashes resulting in cataclysmic nuclear explosions in the middle of a city? No? Then explain to me exactly why he make a 200-year old car "mushroom" into a very limited (?) nuclear explosion. It makes no sense.

And how can we judge the quality of their design decisions from some vague descriptions and a couple of screenshots?
And should Bethesda listen to fans during development? Doesn't that undermine the artistic process?

You judge from what you have. We can't play this "we don't know enough" game ad infinitum because then we'd have to withhold comments until release, and you can't change anything anymore after release.

And a good artist is smart and sure enough to listen to fans without undermining the artistic process.

[Unre]

I don't think the entire premise of Fallout is very funny to the survivors of Nagasaki.

Or perhaps it is: laughter isn't a bad way to deal with death and destruction. I certainly do.

I don't like to make this thread too political but can you say it at the nose of survivors?

I can fully agree with you about Dr.Strange Love, for example. However, I feel uneasy with the reference to the factual name.

[curiously undead]

i think the travelling minigame is an asset to the fallouts and probably why it was used/refined in arcanum. maps have always been vital to travel whether in a post-apocalyptical setting or not. many people are visual and the having a traveling mini-game not only helps to show routes of travel that help the player visualize/imagine their journey ala indiana jones style but the waiting for you arrival and any unknown encounters surely adds a tension that would exist in a vast, barren, and fierce setting of the fallouts. many of the locales featured in the fallouts anyhow are all ready "premade" barren and while the southeastern half of california and its nevada/arizona brothers can have some beautiful and unique settings its very spread out and wouldn't cater to a 1st/3rd person freeroaming game. i liked the way stalker worked with the different zones that nixed only a few uninteresting paths/places between areas. this style could work well for the east coast. i have a feeling this game will have a survival/horror feel to it much like parts of stalker, or a resident evil game instead of a madmax feeling. the east coast decision though will make it even more difficult though to please fallout fans in the long run, but if it allows them to succeed in making a game decent within their capabilities then its all good.

many hurdles do you have
at the reigns of such a game
focus not on the micro-machine
for the pc is its hallowed home
where the fans have red hats
and will put you to the flame

[bjon045]

I can fully agree with you about Dr.Strange Love, for example. However, I feel uneasy with the reference to the factual name.

What on earth are you talking about?!?!?! It is the name of a weapon nothing more.

Should all games be prohibited from using weapons called "AK-47's"? AK-47's have killed far more people than "fatman" did.

Ludicrous argument.

Then explain to me exactly why he make a 200-year old car "mushroom" into a very limited (?) nuclear explosion. It makes no sense.

I can't really understand what you have written here but I think I understand where you are coming from and I am sure it wouldn't be that hard to come up with an explanation. Removing the cooling system would probably cause a pretty big explosion, although I am sure that would be a lot of work as they would have safeguards to prevent the cooling system from being damaged in a crash etc. Not that hard to come up with some plausible explanation.

You judge from what you have. We can't play this "we don't know enough" game ad infinitum because then we'd have to withhold comments until release, and you can't change anything anymore after release.

Now that we have some basic design concepts I agree. I am hoping Bethesda can be influenced to change their design a bit, especially in regards to not having a party, that is a real sore point for me.

[guenthar]

Crashing a car is different than shooting a car and the people who made the car would try to protect it from crashes. When you shoot the car it could get bettween what is protecting the reactor and cause it to blow up.

[BillSeurer]

However, I feel uneasy with the reference to the factual name.

As a resident of the USA I object to Fallout taking place there using factual place names.

[curiously undead]

as a resident of the usa i object to people making our country look like one big bumper stick on the back of a ford pickup.

[curiously undead]

using a name like that is bad taste but that lack of descretion isn't shocking coming from bethesda. but i acknowledge i have no knowledge of what context it was used in, its possible it could be used to show the horrors of the name. but would it be in good taste if a game used auschwitz or manzanar to describe a village where you could kill npcs...clearly even with shades of grey there are some lines that all should see as red-as in stop

[xSamhainx]

I think taking place on the east coast is a great idea personally. If the game works and is fun, if the 14 skills are actually good, etc., the zip code is not going to matter much. Besides, If anyone was going to be safe and comfy in an underground vault (with a case of backup water chips) while the world smolders above, it's the Top Dogs and Fat Cats in Washington and their familia. And a few thousand of their secret service lackeys of course.
Think about it, a new rival post-apocalyptic military order based out of Washington DC proper, the Brotherhood of Steal. *cymbal crash*

[Unre]

What on earth are you talking about?!?!?! It is the name of a weapon nothing more.

Should all games be prohibited from using weapons called "AK-47's"? AK-47's have killed far more people than "fatman" did.

Ludicrous argument.

Somewhere on Earth, it is not ludicrous at all. I just have my own reasons. However, I'll refrain myself here.

[Asbjoern]

I did find the quest variety in Oblivion better than MW but still arrow-linear and without choice, so perhaps their writing shows some signs. We'll see.

Yes, you're quite right. The quest writing were one of the more positive sides of Oblivion.
In Morrowind your quest was to kill some rats in someone's basement, whereas in Oblivion you killed the lions that was killing the rats in the basement, investigated who was behind the lions in the basement and the last part of the quest was in cooperation with a hunter where you were given the task to go out and kill the source of the lions outside of town.
The music and the way many of the quests were executed was for me the better part of Oblivion. But the lack of dialogues and choices had far greater negative impact on the "questing" in Oblivion.

[kalniel]

- Battle system is called the Vault-tec Assisted Targeting System (V.A.T.S.). The article states. “While you’ll certainly be able to tackle enemies in real time using first person shooting, V.A.T.S. lets players pause time and select a target at their leisure”. Battle system still uses action points, but once you’ve used them up you’ll still be able to fight targets in real time while they charge back up.
Clever. Space hulk anyone? :D

[GhanBuriGhan]

Clever. Space hulk anyone? :D

Not really. Space Hulk (only played the boardgame) was about using a limited time to organize squad based tactics. Doesn't apply to a single player combat, nor is the pause limited.

I just can't imagine a consistent gameplay based on what we know so far:

I.e. I see a bunch of supermutants coming at me. I change to VATS, with, e.g. 8 AP in my account. I select one mutant and select a targeted shot to the head for 5 AP. Is the action actually carried out while I am in VATS, or only after I have allocated all my AP, do I watch my character perform the action (a la KOTOR)? If so, when do I get control over my character back and how do I know? Can I use the remaining 3 to move like in FO, or go prone before VATS turn ends? If so, what happens now? Do the mutants move in turns as in FO1? Do they move as a group in a normal RT way, i.e. do enemies only move in RT? If so, does it make sense if I can do more than one action while in VATS mode? AFter exiting VATS, I apparently need to recharge my AP in real time by not fighting. So I circle strafe and bunnyhop until my AP recharges to do more VATS shots? Or I fight in RT AP recharge very slow, and probably VATS is a once per fight deal?

[kalniel]

Not really. Space Hulk (only played the boardgame) was about using a limited time to organize squad based tactics. Doesn't apply to a single player combat, nor is the pause limited.
I do indeed refer to the computer game. As you played in real time you built up a counter which enabled you to switch into a paused mode - the pause mode slowly ate away at the counter until it ran out, throwing you back into real time, usually just as genestealers popped out of somewhere you forgot to cover :p It worked remarkably well.

In F3's case I can see the pause mode running out simply by doing things that require APs, rather than running out of it's own accord.

[GhanBuriGhan]

In F3's case I can see the pause mode running out simply by doing things that require APs, rather than running out of it's own accord.


The boardgame is very similar, only you are timed by the opposing team playing the genestealers. And the time limit makes a huge difference. The cool thing about space hulk is the panic of feeling that timer run out. This is missing from VATS by all accounts, so I am not sure why you feel its more similar to that than to any old RTwP. Nor would it be in line with the TB combat in FO if the time limit were in , incidentally.

[Dhruin]

I.e. I see a bunch of supermutants coming at me. I change to VATS, with, e.g. 8 AP in my account. I select one mutant and select a targeted shot to the head for 5 AP. Is the action actually carried out while I am in VATS, or only after I have allocated all my AP, do I watch my character perform the action (a la KOTOR)? If so, when do I get control over my character back and how do I know? Can I use the remaining 3 to move like in FO, or go prone before VATS turn ends? If so, what happens now? Do the mutants move in turns as in FO1? Do they move as a group in a normal RT way, i.e. do enemies only move in RT? If so, does it make sense if I can do more than one action while in VATS mode? AFter exiting VATS, I apparently need to recharge my AP in real time by not fighting. So I circle strafe and bunnyhop until my AP recharges to do more VATS shots? Or I fight in RT AP recharge very slow, and probably VATS is a once per fight deal?

These are exactly my questions. From the limited explanation so far, bunny hopping and circle-strafing while the APs recharge is exactly what I picture. Although, I can't believe any modern develop would do that, so I just don't get it at the moment.

[Corwin]

Perhaps we should create a list of these questions and send it over to Beth and see if they'll reply. They might look at us favourably!!

[abbaon]

These are exactly my questions. From the limited explanation so far, bunny hopping and circle-strafing while the APs recharge is exactly what I picture. Although, I can't believe any modern develop would do that, so I just don't get it at the moment.
I'm envisioning cover-and-fire tactics, because it's particularly easy for an AI programmer to nullify the advantages of bunny hopping to avoid hitscan weapons. The trick is actually getting the bots to miss like a human being would. With FO3, they could make a proper attack roll every time an enemy targets you, factoring in how much you're obscured, the light level, his perception, whatever. So all they'd need to do is not care whether you're jumping.

[BillSeurer]

Yes, you're quite right. The quest writing were one of the more positive sides of Oblivion.
In Morrowind your quest was to kill some rats in someone's basement, whereas in Oblivion you killed the lions that was killing the rats in the basement, investigated who was behind the lions in the basement and the last part of the quest was in cooperation with a hunter where you were given the task to go out and kill the source of the lions outside of town.

You missed something here, though. This whole quest was a parody of that quest back in Morrowind.

[Dhruin]

I'm envisioning cover-and-fire tactics, because it's particularly easy for an AI programmer to nullify the advantages of bunny hopping to avoid hitscan weapons. The trick is actually getting the bots to miss like a human being would. With FO3, they could make a proper attack roll every time an enemy targets you, factoring in how much you're obscured, the light level, his perception, whatever. So all they'd need to do is not care whether you're jumping.

I didn't quite understand, so I'll rephrase.

What am I doing while my APs recharge and I can use VATS again?

[bjon045]

Somewhere on Earth, it is not ludicrous at all. I just have my own reasons. However, I'll refrain myself here.

It is ludicrous everywhere. It is a factual name. Do people who have family members killed by a drunk driver stop using cars and ride everywhere on bicycles!!!

By your logic we should remove the name "fatman" from all history books? Should they have not mentioned it in the recent film/documentary about Hiroshima/Nagasaki? Of course they should have because it is the name of the weapon.

I suggest you never turn on TV or listen to the radio or use your computer, you might see/hear something that offends you.

[Unre]

It is ludicrous everywhere. It is a factual name. Do people who have family members killed by a drunk driver stop using cars and ride everywhere on bicycles!!!

By your logic we should remove the name "fatman" from all history books? Should they have not mentioned it in the recent film/documentary about Hiroshima/Nagasaki? Of course they should have because it is the name of the weapon.

I suggest you never turn on TV or listen to the radio or use your computer, you might see/hear something that offends you.

I have heard/read the name quite a lot of time from various sources including survivors. I feel uneasy because an American game company put it in a game just for a "taste".

However, of course this is far of topic and too much atopic for a game forum.

You may continue with your "logic" but it won't change my opinion on this issue.

[curiously undead]

well speaking of words ever time i see the word bangkok i always think of this song...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lMsgrDY5W0
(not intended as an insult, just my associating brain at work, leading to a smile)

[abbaon]

I didn't quite understand, so I'll rephrase.
I was trying to explain that circle strafing and bunny hopping are maneuvers invented to thwart human aiming. They're only effective against AI if the designer allows them to be.
What am I doing while my APs recharge and I can use VATS again?
Heading for cover, hiding behind cover, or flanking. Or circle strafing and bunny hopping, I don't know. If they have any idea what they're doing, it'll be the former, and the combat will resemble that of Stalker and not UT2K4.

[Unre]

well speaking of words ever time i see the word bangkok i always think of this song...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lMsgrDY5W0
(not intended as an insult, just my associating brain at work, leading to a smile)

Well, thanx for the change. ;) I,too, feared that I might make this thread into political flame, which won't make an old survivor told us her painful past so that that shouldn't happen again. She didn't hate US or Japanese government.

Getting older, I feel her wish is too much for us human-beings.

[Asbjoern]

You missed something here, though. This whole quest was a parody of that quest back in Morrowind.

I was only using it as an example of how the quests functioned in Oblivion and how they functioned in Morrowind. Parody or not, it still serves its purpose as example.
Of course a quest about rats in a basement that the great hero have to intervene with is absurd. Rats in the basement is the quest cliche of RPGs.

[Dhruin]

I was trying to explain that circle strafing and bunny hopping are maneuvers invented to thwart human aiming. They're only effective against AI if the designer allows them to be.

Heading for cover, hiding behind cover, or flanking. Or circle strafing and bunny hopping, I don't know. If they have any idea what they're doing, it'll be the former, and the combat will resemble that of Stalker and not UT2K4.

Uh, sorry. I wasn't really focused on the bunny hopping as such, so I missed your point first time 'round.

[BillSeurer]

I finally got a copy of Game Informer and read the article. It was very interesting and I suggest that others get a copy and read it for yourself.

The only really weird sounding thing was the catapult. It almost sounded like a description you'd get when you run something through babelfish twice. But then again Fallout had the BB gun that did more damage than a laser rifle, the solar powered energy gun, and the sledge hammer with which you could knock people 50 yards away so maybe they are just trying to add their own bizarre weapon to the mix.

[BillSeurer]

I was only using it as an example of how the quests functioned in Oblivion and how they functioned in Morrowind. Parody or not, it still serves its purpose as example. Of course a quest about rats in a basement that the great hero have to intervene with is absurd. Rats in the basement is the quest cliche of RPGs.

Right. I was just adding that the quest is set up as a parody and knows it in addition to your point about it being much more complex than just killing some rats ala umpteen other RPGs.

The first time I was playing I actually groaned when the fighter guild guy was all so serious about "taking care of the rat problem" (almost identical sounding to the first fighter guild quest in Morrowind). Then I cracked up laughing when the lady in the house starting crying about her "poor babies" getting eaten.

[curiously undead]

i think there are plenty of other games that have done far better parodys of 'intro' quests than oblivion. inexiles bards tale for one (a crap game but from what i played of it had decent humour) nowadays many people have pet rats so adding humour that's not all that funny or shocking in the first place doesn't really make it a parody does it? isn't the humour more directed towards those who are different and don't have a dog, cat, bird, or fish as a pet? to me its akin to when someone says something of the wall and they retracts by saying "just kidding". the quest wasn't started as a joke, but wrapping it up with "a laugh" helps to cover up the "is that all?" or "huh?" feelings. if i had to guess the oblivion dev's play far more time playing rockstar games for influence than other modern rpgs...