Planescape Torment

[Defiler]

Ok, so I'm about to start Planescape: Torment for like the 3rd time. I"ve never actually gotten past maybe the midpoint of the game. I really like the setting and the characters but is it just me or is it a little too heavy on the dialogue? I mean I don't mind solving little quests that just involve talking but I feel like I'm a psycho-therapist listening to someone rant about their problems. Does anyone else feel this way?

[Corwin]

No, I loved all the depth the dialogue permitted. It was SO different from the KILL everything mentality. I liked how non-violent solutions were worth FAR more XP than the easier, kill and loot option!!

[Moriendor]

I agree. There is this wonderful invention called ummm... ah, yes, BOOK, that's much better suited for throwing insane amounts of letters at people :biggrin: . What pissed me off more than the dialogue though was that every setting was described in detail. WTF? It's a video game. You know... "video" as in the Latin word... "videre = to see sth., to look at sth." so why the hell was every setting described in detail if it could have been shown? That got on my nerves big time after a while...

Regarding dialogue, I don't really remember how "bad" it was in PS:T but I just recently finally played and finished KotOR for the first time. Seriously, I felt like a babysitter after a little while. The only thing that was missing was a pop-up dialogue like "Carth: 'Yo, I need to pee... be back in a minute. Please wait for me right here.' "
I seem to remember that BG, BG II and PS:T had similarly intrusive characters. The basic idea might have been good, i.e. to have some interaction between the characters in your party but the execution was rather poor IMHO, especially because if you got tired of the NPCs and decided to get witty or tell them to STFU then you got dark points in KotOR (not sure about how being "evil" was handled in PS:T but telling party members to STFU certainly shouldn't have been treated as an "evil" deed in any of those games).

[mogwins]

You were annoyed by the dialogue and characters in Torment?!? I loved those aspects of the game, and put up with the mediocre combat to enjoy them. In fact the dialogues with the characters, specifically talking to your party members to uncover their past was easily my favourite part of the game. Of any game!

On a slight tangent, does anyone else see some strong parallels between the excellent game Torment and the excellent film Momento? Even beyond the whole amnesia schtick, the whole betrayal/truth/motive themes are very strong in both.

[Arhu]

Heh. I remember that back when it came out, I wouldn't even try to get into it. Every review I read, mostly in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg, was so positive I couldn't bear it. Dunno why exactly, various reasons I guess. They praised the "original" character interaction, which was heavily inspired by J-RPGs like Final Fantasy. They praised the text, which should better be put in a book, because I wanted to play a game, not read a game. They praised the Infinity Engine - I hated the infinity engine, because to me it meant recyled RPG and D&D. I didn't like D&D, because I was jealous that they got so much of it and I got so little RoA.

Soooo.. in a nutshell, I was a bit biased against it. However, a year later or so I changed my mind. I let go of prejudice, I freed my mind and prepared for the experience. Because that's what you have to do when you play a game like PS:T - accept what is offered, how it is offered and enjoy it as it is. Relax and take your time to read, don't rush. Absorb everything. If you don't, if you play it like any other game, you wouldn't enjoy it I guess. Well, I did, then.

Off-Topic: To anyone who liked PS:T for its story and story telling, do try Dreamfall (http://www.dreamfall.com/). Ideally you'll have played the prequel The Longest Journey before that, but it's a bit dated and relatively hard to get into (I played it with a walkthrough,
just to experience the story before delving into Dreamfall). The story is just so incredibly amazing and emotional.

[txa1265]

Thanks Arhu - I was going to try Dreamfall, but I played a ton of Adventure games following Fahrenheit and got a bit burned (considering my last adventure before that was Journeyman Project for Mac in ~'93) ... but I've heard good stuff, so I might do it after things slow a bit after the first of the year.

[Arhu]

You'll be in for a treat. :) A warning though. Like PS:T, which was mostly story with some added combat, Dreamfall is also mostly story with simple diversions.

[Corwin]

Arhu, after checking out the game and reading the forums about the MAJOR install bug, I think I'll have to give it a miss. I won't regedit my system just to install a game.

[Arhu]

Ah, that would be a real pity.. But if you have 7GB free on Drive C, there isn't even an install bug. :)

[Corwin]

I don't!! I only have 4 GB free as my C drive is a small Windows System drive and my D and E drives are quite large.

[Sei Daneic]

I loved Torments long dialouges and description, it really made the world more real and alive for me, and the the characters more than stats and killmachines.

And I wouldn't call most RPG's on PC for Video-games. I remember that was a word usually used for games on consoles plugged into a TV, not the PC-games.

I don't!! I only have 4 GB free as my C drive is a small Windows System drive and my D and E drives are quite large.

I have the same setup, makes me hate all the games and progs that force install anything at all into c:\, but makes the windows startup super-fast.

[slam23]

PS:T had me caring for the characters, one of the few games that ever had that effect on me. Otherwise I'm perfectly aware of the fact that I'm looking at moving pixels. But I had to slow down my usual gaming speed to really get absorbed in all the text. I was fine with it the moment I decided to look upon the game as a truly interactive novel, instead of the more action and combat oriented BG series for example. I recognize that the middle part of the game can be somewhat of a flat point, because of all the errands to run and factions to explore in the same areas. Get through that part and the action picks up again, in a later part even to somewhat absurd levels. I like the analogy with psychotherapy because it is exactly discovering the narrative of the protoganist and NPC's and their fate that glued me to the screen. (I work as a (neuro)psychologist and one of the things I like about that job is how you get to listen to people while they are dealing with their life. So maybe I'm not the right person to ask :-) How often does a game deliver NPC's who easily could be the protagonist in their own game? On a side note: does anybody know if Planescape:Vengeance ever came to fruition? I followed that project for some time and then lost track of it, and Google does not help me find it again.

[Korplem]

I actually quit playing PS:T for the opposite reason. I ran into a part with a lot of combat, which I thought was fairly pointless in a game where you didn't die, and just stopped playing it. I really liked the story and the characters but after reaching that combat heavy area I had no motivation to continue.

[JonNik]

@ Arhu

Personally I liked The longest Journey significantly more. Perhaps it was playing
it at the time that it first got out. Perhaps it was because the "diversions" as you
put it in Dreamfall were very badly implemented gameplay feaures that actually
got in the way of the Typically (continuing in LJ's standard's) Good Story.

And for PS:T well, wasnt dialogue actually at the core of the gameplay ?
(It gave you the basic moral choises to develop Nameless and uncover the story)
Combat as a former poster said looked like it was mostly thrown in as an
afterthought. The excellent characters and Dialogues/roleplaying options are
actually the reason PS pops into my mind when I hear PCRPG (That and Arcanum
I guess, sorry havent played Fallout... ;) ).

[Corwin]

Fallout is one of the best RPG's ever made. If you can find it, buy it; it is worth it!! :)

[JonNik]

Thanks Corwin, I know.

I have a friend of mine that only needs to hear "Fallout"
to go on a gushing rant :)

I missed out on it when it originally came out due to my
PC having died at that period (Couldnt afford one for quite
some time afterwards).

I always mean to get the time to try it out... Well since I'm
waiting for G3 to be patched perhaps now is the time...
After I manage to pull myself away from aimlessly fiddling with
it to finish my second time through ToEE first that is...

[Arma]

I heavily dislike Torment. Sure, great story and characters and setting and all, but there was far too much combat at all points in the game. And combat showed the worst signs of the Infinity engine.

The other thing that put me off, is the fact that towards the end part of the game, there was this feel that the game was unfinished (including the quite open ending that should have included the "To be continued" sight).

[Defiler]

Well, after a few hours of giving PS:T a 4th try...I found out what my problem was. I was jumping into it like it was going to be Baldur's Gate in a Planescape setting. I just had to slow my gaming down and think of it more as an advenutre/RPG hybrid than some Black Isle combat intensive RPG. I think it's the setting and the feelings of abandonment and chaos that make the story so rich. I am enjoying it more this time so hopefully I can make it to the end...even though it's hard to avoid reading someone talk about the ending any time this game is brought up in a forum. I've forgotten it(them) for now so no spoilers!!!

[r3dshift]

I totally agree with slam23 there. Thus far, Planescape:Torment has been the only game that's had me care for its characters and got me glued to the screen because of its intricate story and incredible atmosphere (and believe me, I've played hundreds of games to date). It's t3h ultimate PC game for me, even better than Mafia.

I've pondered replaying it several times, but it was such a cathartic experience for me that I fear I would ruin the whole enjoyment if I played it for the second time. I mean, come on, I know how it ends, which nearly made me cry, for I got so used to and grew so fond of "living my life" as The Nameless One. And as the ending cinematic rolled before my eyes I had to face the inevitable: leaving him behind, forever, knowing there's never gonna be a sequel. As a matter of fact, it's better this way, however much I long to linger in that universe again.

[slam23]

@r3dshift
I did replay it (3 times) and it was kind of a mixed blessing. The first time I played it through without using any kind of walkthrough and naturally the first time being naieve about the whole thing is the best. The second time I played with a walkthrough and I was amazed at what I missed the first time (and I'm no slouch when it comes to being thorough), it was somewhat like "unlocking extra content". I also build my character up to a level 42 mage (investing heavily in int and wis), just to see how it would balance or not (it did actually, anything above level 30 does give you some advantages in terms of spell slots but you won't be god) and also to see some of the high level spells I didn't get around to the first time. I wouldn't have wanted to miss that second time. But I can relate to the idea that you savor the one time if it was that good. The third time was a bit of a mistake, it was a couple of years later, my girlfriend who didn't finish it the first time wanted to play it through and I thought the experience would be kind of new again for me also. Did not happen, I remembered all of it while playing. I also wanted to try out an evil path to see how that would work but couldn't go through with it, I was such a wimp, I could not get myself to hurt the feelings of my beloved NPC's! I still finished the game and it was kind of nice but nothing beat that first time! Ahhh, memory lane........

[roguefrog]

The other thing that put me off, is the fact that towards the end part of the game, there was this feel that the game was unfinished (including the quite open ending that should have included the "To be continued" sight).

Planescape: Torment ends perfectly. The actual story being told is complete. You don't need to know how TNO fares in the Blood Wars. Where Morte ends up without the TNO around, etc... That would be a different story, or a tale for another time (I hope not though). Torment, other than the meaning, was about TNO discovering who he was, has been, and finally accepting his fate brought on by the final encounter with his mortality. Dragging the story on further would lessen the experience.

[NFLed]

Planescape Torment is one of the truly great games of all time. There is a ton of reading (and even more than a ton if you want to read all of it) and it's not 100% classic fantasy (although it's close enough for me) plus if you are in sort of a hurry you can rush through sections and not get nearly the enjoyment out of it so it's certainly not for everyone's tastes.

[Arma]

In my opinion it is not only the story that feels unfinished - the whole game after Ravel's Maze just feels unfinished. Sorta like Lionheart, if you played it, after the first part that has you running around doing stuff suddenly all you do is hack stuff on the head with a stick, to say figuratively.

[aboyd]

I think Planescape: Torment has some of the best endings ever, in any game. The first time I completed the game, I openly wept at how bittersweet it was. I was desperate for an ending like, "you and Annah escape without any negative consequences and oh by the way, Deionarra's cool about everything." But that would have been cheap. I knew TNO had to make a sacrifice.

The next few times I played, I tried, with the help of a strategy guide, to achieve all the different ending combinations. I particularly liked the all-dialogue ending that you can get if your INT is over 22. I also liked fighting at the end, but only when I was a spellcaster. The game gave me an extra high-level spell or two right before the battle (I don't know if that's part of the path or if others got the spells much earlier in the game). I loved casting them, seeing the huge animations, feeling like I was really devastating my enemy. I just felt like power was seething out from TNO.

Anyway, I think there are something like 6 or 7 ways you can get to the end, but only 3 different ending animations. What a great game. I miss it.

[txa1265]

In my opinion it is not only the story that feels unfinished - the whole game after Ravel's Maze just feels unfinished. Sorta like Lionheart, if you played it, after the first part that has you running around doing stuff suddenly all you do is hack stuff on the head with a stick, to say figuratively.

Comparing PS:T to Lionheart ... dunno about that ...

[CelesteGB]

I think Planescape: Torment has some of the best endings ever, in any game. The first time I completed the game, I openly wept at how bittersweet it was. I was desperate for an ending like, "you and Annah escape without any negative consequences and oh by the way, Deionarra's cool about everything." But that would have been cheap. I knew TNO had to make a sacrifice.

The next few times I played, I tried, with the help of a strategy guide, to achieve all the different ending combinations. I particularly liked the all-dialogue ending that you can get if your INT is over 22. I also liked fighting at the end, but only when I was a spellcaster. The game gave me an extra high-level spell or two right before the battle (I don't know if that's part of the path or if others got the spells much earlier in the game). I loved casting them, seeing the huge animations, feeling like I was really devastating my enemy. I just felt like power was seething out from TNO.

Anyway, I think there are something like 6 or 7 ways you can get to the end, but only 3 different ending animations. What a great game. I miss it.

I cried at the ending too. I also used a guide because I didn't want to miss anything. I really need to replay it. I installed it again a couple of months ago and the graphics have held up fairly well (to me anyway)

Celeste

[roguefrog]

In my opinion it is not only the story that feels unfinished - the whole game after Ravel's Maze just feels unfinished. Sorta like Lionheart, if you played it, after the first part that has you running around doing stuff suddenly all you do is hack stuff on the head with a stick, to say figuratively.


My question to you is: How is the story unfinished? Your claim, the burden of proof is on you.

In regards to the post Ravel game: In a lot of ways I agree, Curst could have been a lot better, and there could have been less combat, but by then your 3/4ths of the way through the game.

[xSamhainx]

Quite a strange and quirky experience indeed, but one of the good ones IMHO. Defintely a unique game.

Never finished it unfortunately, I need to start the whole thing over from scratch.

[slam23]

Probably you all know about this, but for anybody who's starting over with PS:T or playing it for the first time, check out this site for some good fix/restoration packs and patches: http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/Torment/index_mods.php
They can prevent some bugs and also bring out some of the stuff that was not implemented but is right there in the code. Good luck with that and enjoy!

[Jaz]

Oh, thanks fpr the tip :). Haven't replayed PS:T in a long time... I'd say it's about time now!
I loved the game because I was able to talk my way out of a situation instead of having to fight. Don't get me wrong, I like combat-oriented games, too, but I also like to be able to choose how to deal with a situation.
And I liked the game's unique atmosphere.

[txa1265]

I've installed and restarted a few times over the past couple of years, but never gotten that far, for no good reason. I really want to get back to play it again, it is on my 'after DMM&M, NWN2 & G3' list.

[Lord Alex]

Probably you all know about this, but for anybody who's starting over with PS:T or playing it for the first time, check out this site for some good fix/restoration packs and patches: http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/Torment/index_mods.php
They can prevent some bugs and also bring out some of the stuff that was not implemented but is right there in the code. Good luck with that and enjoy!

Damn that patch sounds intriguing... Must... resist... another... restart........

[magerette]

As slam23 said, the best description I've heard for PS:T is interactive novel.
And the interactive part is where it truly shines--you have all the traditional elements of computer games--puzzles, stats, boss fights, leveling, pretty impressive shiny-graphics spells for the time, plus the added benefit/desparate need of sifting through your NPC's minds trying to uncover the clue to your own mystery.

Every RPG board ever has this Planescape nostalgia thread--for the reason that it is the one game that plays you as much as you play it. I agree there is an unfinished quality to it, but that gives the imagination a freer reign as well. I am almost afraid to play it over--the first time seems unbeatable to me, too.

[xSamhainx]

Thx for the link slam, that's really going to help.
PS:T is definitely on the short list now along with WH40k:WA&DC (dont you just love game acronyms?), I just have to wait until this blurry vision subsides...

Hopefully I can get back to some serious gaming in a week or so.

[Maylander]

PS:T is one of my all time favourite RPGs, only bypassed by Gothic and two other Black Isle titles - Baldurs Gate 1 and 2. What I love about the game are the interesting characters and the unique setting, it feels different from other games instead of just "more of the same old".

To me, it's refreshing to play a game which takes a book-sort-of-approach on storytelling and descriptions. Makes it more immersive and easier to actually roleplay, which should be essential in any roleplaying game(that's what RPG is short for, for all those who consider xp the foundation of RPGs), but is somehow overlooked in 90% of RPGs.

I still go back to PS:T from time to time, although not as often as BG2. It's a great game, and I wish there were more like it. :)

[Sei Daneic]

Planescape: Torment ends perfectly. The actual story being told is complete. You don't need to know how TNO fares in the Blood Wars. Where Morte ends up without the TNO around, etc... That would be a different story, or a tale for another time (I hope not though). Torment, other than the meaning, was about TNO discovering who he was, has been, and finally accepting his fate brought on by the final encounter with his mortality. Dragging the story on further would lessen the experience.

I think Planescape: Torment has some of the best endings ever, in any game. The first time I completed the game, I openly wept at how bittersweet it was. I was desperate for an ending like, "you and Annah escape without any negative consequences and oh by the way, Deionarra's cool about everything." But that would have been cheap. I knew TNO had to make a sacrifice.
<SNIP>


I totally agree. The ending of Torment sendt shivers down my spine, and I almost wept as well. Torment was really a game with athmosphere; the intro, the music, the story, the characters, the ending. Damn, hope I will see another game like it in my lifetime..

[txa1265]

I really need to replay that ...

[LordRac]

Probably you all know about this, but for anybody who's starting over with PS:T or playing it for the first time, check out this site for some good fix/restoration packs and patches: http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/Torment/index_mods.php
They can prevent some bugs and also bring out some of the stuff that was not implemented but is right there in the code. Good luck with that and enjoy!

Thanks for the link. Should I install the Torment Fix Pack then the Restoration Pack? I was only going to install the Fix Pack originally.

[slam23]

I plucked this of Sorcerers' place forums:

"On the subject of compatibility:

I've had a look at the files that are common between the Restoration Pack and Platter's Fixpack. Almost all of the common files say "bug fixed by Platter" in their description in the Restoration Pack. In fact some of them are exactly identical. Those that are not usually have an extra component in the Restoration Pack. Therefore, I'm guessing it should be safe to install both and not mess up anything. Here's my recommended install order:

1. Install the game (obviously)
2. Offical 1.1 patch
3. Platter's Fixpack, overwrite all files
4. Restoration Pack, overwrite all files.

(alternatively you could install Restoration first, then NOT overwrite any file when you install Platter's. This is important because Platter's will replace one of Morte's dialog files, which will end up being incompatible with the other dialog files. Not sure if this will mess the game up, but it potentially could, so don't do it!)

(EDIT: Alternative NOT recommended, because by not replacing files when installing Platter's you will miss out on all the original files the Fixpack is meant to replace, including ones added by the official patch. Therefore, sticking to the install order above is best IMO)

I'm almost sure that both Packs are 100% compatible with both the Candlestick Quest and the Armor mod, since neither Pack touches any of the files added by the Quest or the Armor mod.

Assuming we're going for an all-mod fest:
1. Install the game (obviously)
2. Offical 1.1 patch
3. Platter's Fixpack, overwrite all files
4. Restoration Pack, overwrite all files
5. Armor mod
6. Candlestick Quest

(I'm guessing you could install the Candlestick Quest any time, but it's absolutely vital to install Restoration BEFORE the Armor mod. Restoration replaces DIALOG.TLK, and Armor is an IAP self extracting mod, so order is critical)

Note that this is pure speculation. I haven't tried this yet, and do not guarantee it'll work. I may do some in-game experiments with it next week, if I get some free time. But, considering each Pack is a set of unrelated components, there's no reason why intalling things as I've outlined above will not work."

Edit: if you also want to install the G3 tweak pack it supposedly goes last. I personally think it makes some things to easy on the player, especially allowing to rest anywhere.

Don't shoot me if you have to reinstall though ;)

[LordRac]

Thanks for the info, slam23. I did notice a couple of files from the Restoration pack that were a few weeks older than the ones in the FixPack, but I'll take my chances.

Now I just have to find the time to play this masterpiece...