New German Interview @ Krawall

[Moriendor]

German Krawall has posted a new interview ( http://www.krawall.de/artikel.php?s=c&artikel_id=22340 ) with JoWood Producer Michael Paeck. The highlights are...

- The next patch will be released in under 5 - 6 weeks.
- He stumbled into one of Krawall's "traps" and revealed in reply to a question about what they would like to improve in any future versions of Gothic that there will be an add-on. When asked to confirm that the add-on is indeed in development, he realized his mistake and went back to the official line of "we're evaluatig a bunch of options" but he more or less confirmed it by accident.
- He commented on the poor performance of the game engine. He said that there is a bunch of leftover stuff in there from all the extensive testing that they did when they were evaluating technologies to squeeze the entire game world into memory.
- The game has sold very well so far. A second production run is currently en route so any places where the game has sold out should be able to restock soon.
- The rest of the interview is pretty much just PR blah-blah as he tries to talk himself, PB and JoWood out of any responsibility for the rather poor state of the game.
The project's complexity is solely to blame, he says ;) . An example he gave is that after any substantial bug fixing, they need to recompile the entire world which is a process that supposedly takes a full 11 hours.
Ummm... I am admittedly not exactly a pro coder but come on... that's gotta be bullshit, no? If it isn't bullshit, then it sure sounds incredibly inefficient. There should be a way for them to test changes in a more incremental way. Very strange...

[Corwin]

Thanks for that Mo, I've posted it on the front page.

[txa1265]

An example he gave is that after any substantial bug fixing, they need to recompile the entire world which is a process that supposedly takes a full 11 hours.
Ummm... I am admittedly not exactly a pro coder but come on... that's gotta be bullshit, no? If it isn't bullshit, then it sure sounds incredibly inefficient. There should be a way for them to test changes in a more incremental way. Very strange...

They may need a full rebuild to truly test bug-fixes across multiple linked files - but they should be able to do those iteratively, and with proper project management they could group them rationally.

[Acleacius]

Yes, Moriendor your efforts are much appreciated, you Rock! ;)

[elkston]

Thanks for the translation/summary Moriendor.

[ToddMcF2002]

Alot of extra stuff in there? Well I suppose that is good news - meaning we can expect improvements in performance. Unlike Oblivion where people were holding out hope for perf gains that will never happen.

[Melvil]

5-6 six weeks, just enough time to destroy this game in one run, kill dark messiah, and then return to this to play with different skills/factions.

I hope they remove all that "extra stuff" lol, extra stuff, exceptional pr

[space captain]

that extra stuff refers to garbage that is not used and didnt take the time to remove.. therefore contributing to a obscenely bloated and incredibly inept code base - its not a good thing

frankly G3 is one of the biggest dissapointments of a game ive ever played - probably because i expected something halfway decent

but this thing is horrid - that patch better work miracles or the US reviewers are gonna tear this game a new asshole

[Corwin]

Whoa, the game has some issues, but 'horrid'? PoR2 was horrid, DL was horrid in its way, but G3 is FAR superior to either of those. Daggerfall out of the Box, was unplayable, but patched over several weeks/months it became a classic. G3 is very playable, it's just not well balanced in some areas.

[Sei Daneic]

Yeah, I agree with Corwin. Althpough the games performance is less than optimal, and the savegame bugs are horrid when they do strike (played 12 hours straight saving only on quicksave, too late did I understand my mistake when the game died while saving a last time. My own stupidity, but no less aggrevating), the game in itself is very good.

[Thaurin]

Well, did he mention that the new patch will actually remove all the "extra garbage" (presumably debugging information) and improve performance? I guess that's the most important thing.

As for it taking up 11 hours: I suppose it's possible, with a lot of pre-processing of graphics, maps and scripts, but I'm sure there would be ways around that to speed up the process, at least to make testing more responsive. To be sure, a true test would require the whole thing to be rebuild and retested, of course.

[Maylander]

11 hours is actually realistic, but you don't start compiling such a massive code at random - you do it at night as you go home, and come back next morning, after it's completed. All huge batch processes work like this - banks and such, massive systems, do all such tasks at night when hardly anyone is using the system.

In 6 weeks I'm probably done with Gothic 3, at least for now. I'll get back to it later, of course. I feel the game is excellent as it is, but it needs fixing in several areas before it's released in the US, or they won't be able to conquer that market this time either.

[Acleacius]

Thats true if it comes out like this is the US it flop around like a fish on land.
Aspyr has been doing a good job too, well until the reviews of bugs started surfacing then they quietly steped back.
I am sure they could do it justice but that flashing white light when you turn off that terrible bloom, the armor and beast should take prioity and be release whenin the next week, there is no excuse for making people wait 5 or 6 weeks for the major couple of problems could be quick fixed.

[Sem]

11 hours is actually realistic, but you don't start compiling such a massive code at random - you do it at night as you go home, and come back next morning, after it's completed. All huge batch processes work like this - banks and such, massive systems, do all such tasks at night when hardly anyone is using the system.


It can already take about an hour to make a postscript from a big InDesign file, so I think 11 hours isn't strange. But indeed why should it interfere with the bugfixing etc.

[JonNik]

My guess would be that they are going for fixing as many technical issues
as they can before the NA release (bugs,crashes Gfx glitches). As many
have said here, this is their big bet. They definetely need not to mess it.

So Diverting resources in releasing a hotfix is perhaps not an option atm ?
After all we have already paid up... we are not going anywhere ;)

[space captain]

yeh ok Dung Lords was worse than this - but is that really a compliment?? I would definately say that game was beyond horrid

i guess it comes down to your personal definition of "playable"... for me gothic 3 has monster issues with the streaming technology, and an insane amount of bugs and CTDs that just kill any desire for me to lumber thru it... i certainly dont consider it "playable" except for the most clinical, non-enjoyable QA type of way

maybe my standards are just too high, but i dont know... i think there are a few people that agree with me if you check the Jowood forums

[Rendelius]

I consider it playable, but it's not much fun as it is now. I'll certainly wait for the patch and see if this helps in that respect. If not, I will most probably not finish G3 anytime soon.

[milamber]

jees, 5-6 weeks to make close combat vs animals playable. They should have pushed the release date back a bit i think. Well all i can think of is playing a caster character until the AI patch is out...

[ToddMcF2002]

Bah I'm off to play Arx Fatalis and Quake 4. That will take 5 or 6 weeks. I'm not touching this thing till its prim and proper!

[crpgnut]

Gothic has never been received well in the US. Something is lost in translation I'm guessing. I've never enjoyed the Gothic series, though I keep buying them :) To me, it seems you have to be very patient before the story and character build-up gets going. Most Americans are all about instant gratification. If the game isn't roaring out of the box, it gets shelved quickly. If the game is buggy as well, you can just forget about it.

[Gorath]

So where did you guys find this this 5 to 6 weeks? I can neither see it in the interview nor in Mo´s summary.

[JonNik]

German Krawall has posted a new interview ( http://www.krawall.de/artikel.php?s=c&artikel_id=22340 ) with JoWood Producer Michael Paeck. The highlights are...

- The next patch will be released in under 5 - 6 weeks.
....


Perhaps he means "well before" ... I too dearly hope I misunderstood... :)
Anyway seems to tie with the NA release or was that one moved ?

[Acleacius]

Well according to the gamesites like EB and from what I remember its still 11/13 which is 21 days or 3 weeks, so I don't know what the hell they are thinking are talking about. <confused>

[Gorath]

He said the next patch surely won´t take 5 or 6 weeks.

[Jabberwocky]

The bit I find most interesting is the part about an add-on. I remember someone in rpgdot forums saying how incomplete the dialogue is, particularly with main characters. If you will remember, this harkens back to G2 before the add-on: NOTR. Although a very well crafted game, the first version lacked in many ways that hard-core Gothic fans took note of - eg: incomplete dialogue, map areas underutilized.

Perhaps it was the plan with G3 to release a game that would snag new fans without bogging them down in unecessary details. By that I mean Americans, crazy Yanks who can't stand to be bogged down by a story :rolleyes: (don't worry, I can say that because I am one). An add-on to G3 would perhaps tie up a lot of loose ends and complete details that returning fans are currently missing, just like it did with G2.

Granted, if this was indeed the purpose, I would view it as a gimmick. My way of thinking is that an add-on should not be used to complete an unfinished game. Nevertheless, should an add-on deliver like NOTR did, I will happily pay the money, gimmick or not!...

[elkston]

The bit I find most interesting is the part about an add-on. I remember someone in rpgdot forums saying how incomplete the dialogue is, particularly with main characters. If you will remember, this harkens back to G2 before the add-on: NOTR. Although a very well crafted game, the first version lacked in many ways that hard-core Gothic fans took note of - eg: incomplete dialogue, map areas underutilized.


This is an interesting analogy and I have thought about it a bit myself.
However, I never thought the dialog in G2 was shallow - a feeling I get about
some of the dialogs and a good number of side-quests in G3.

To me G2 was just as "deep" as G1 as far as the characters were concerened
and its faults were a rushed ending, late game balance, and too much hack&slash
towards the end.

The rift between G2/G1 and G3 is greater, IMHO. No doubt the construction
of the world is sublime in G3 and with some work (mostly in opponent AI)
the combat will be good too. But what is harder to fix is the shallowness
invloved in dialogue, quest, and certain plot elements that to me is
the result of the developers spreading themselves too thin. For the most part the dialogues
and stuff are very "Gothicy" -- don't get me wrong. But they don't
go on as long or are as varied as the ones we saw in G1&G2. And I truly
think this is because they tried to have too many characters, quests and maybe,
just maybe too big a world.

I am level 50 currently and have by my estimates, finished 65-70% of the game.
There are really no memorable new characters like the people you could
never forget from G2&G1. I also haven't run across any really neat side quests
like the ones in G2 or G1. What about something fun and interesting like the drinking contest? There was just too much to do that focusing on little memorable
details like that got lost in the shuffle.

Granted, every once in a while I will run into a character or some dialogue that will harken back to that old days. And then I will know that PB hasn't lost their magic -- its just gotten diluted with all the stuff such a huge world as G3 needs.

One example of this:

There is a guy that runs a farm on the outskirts of Gelden. In the dialogue he doesn't just dish out some quest for you or ask for help. Instead he talks about how the Orcs seem to have made some deal with the Hashishan and that maybe they (the Orcs) are afraid of them. I know its not very big, but its just little things like that that touch on larger plot & politics that I love. And in G1 & G2 almost every character had something to say about the world or their predicament that wasn't in some way related to giving you a quest. It was just background stuff to add color.


I didn't want this to turn into a review :) Even though I have spent a lot
of time in the game, I have only gone about 25% of the main plot. Mostly,
as my play style dictactes, I do most of the sidequests first and then proceed
with the main plot last. At this point I have visited all the cities in Myrtana,
half of the desert, and the Wolf & Fire clans in Nordmar. Haven't seen Xardas
yet.

So anyway, maybe things are more interesting in the MAIN plot and I haven't
gotten to it yet. I keep playing regardless because its still Gothic and
that means its better than a heap of other stuff out there!!!

[Moriendor]

Yep. What he said literally regarding the release of the patch was "It [the patch] will come out soon, so not in 5 or 6 weeks but certainly sooner than that."
So -yeah- a patch release between today and "in under 5-6 weeks" seems like the most careful way to put it and also like the most realistic outlook. Let's hope that it will be rather sooner than later... they also said once upon a time that the game would be finished Xmas 2005 at the very latest ;) .

[Jabberwocky]

Elkston,

I agree with your take on G2 completely. It sounds like we have the same method of attacking quest games - Save the main plot for last. Unfortunately my observations and comments are only based on hearsay regarding G3, and not gameplay since I don't have it yet. You are probably right about the dialogue seeming different. After waiting so long, I think we all had our expectations set a little too high. I'm just glad that the game hasn't morphed into something completely different from the other two, and I'm sure I'll enjoy it for what it DOES deliver!

[TheMadGamer]

Gothic has never been received well in the US. Something is lost in translation I'm guessing.

I think there are two primary reasons for this.

1) Poor U.S. Marketing for G1 & G2. Well you can't really blame them... you have to keep things in perspective. G1 & G2 put pyranna bytes on the map. They started out a small group of gamers making a game... there was no way for them, at that time, to market as big as they are able to now with major publishers behind them with a label that is now recognized.

2) 'Strange' controls. I personally adapted to the control scheme of G1 & G2 without much of a problem and actually became very comfortable with the control scheme... I played G2 with the original control scheme of G1. But here in the U.S. polish takes a big priority and it seems that if you don't properly polish your game with a slick, elegant interface and control scheme, reviewers will get endlessly stuck on that point and reiterate over and over and over again in every reveiw you read that the game's controls aren't good. I found the controls of G1 & G2 different, but not to the point that it was at all an issue with playing and enjoying those games. But here in the U.S. you have to 'look good' first and 'be good' second. I don't agree with that, but that's how it is... or at least that's how it appears to be.

I've never enjoyed the Gothic series, though I keep buying them :)

I find it strange that you don't enjoy the gothic games but buy them anyway? Why is that?

To me, it seems you have to be very patient before the story and character build-up gets going. Most Americans are all about instant gratification. If the game isn't roaring out of the box, it gets shelved quickly. If the game is buggy as well, you can just forget about it.

There is the slow, but seemingly inevitable momentum here in the U.S. to MTv-ify the gaming scene. I really hate it. I choose to just go back to being a bunch of geeks and nerds who hide the fact we play games from the 'cool kids.' Games were better that way.

[elkston]

There is the slow, but seemingly inevitable momentum here in the U.S. to MTv-ify the gaming scene. I really hate it. I choose to just go back to being a bunch of geeks and nerds who hide the fact we play games from the 'cool kids.' Games were better that way.


God, that is [b]sooo true[b]!!! I am with you, MadGamer! I'm a gamer and its
a little "geeky". So what! I'm not going to apologize for it! I love it, so leave me alone to my world of games...

[space captain]

im pretty patient when it comes to games - im old school with this shit, I remember when Wasteland and Bards Tale first came out ... those were great games for their time.. i learned how to type by playing the old sierra Quest games (and LSL of course)

but nowadays the quality control is just practically non-existant since the PC games industry became such a cash cow enterprise instead of an almost underground phenomena - yeh the technology is alot more advanced, but thats a cop out as far as im concerned

face it - PB bit off WAAAY more than they could chew with this engine.. its fucking garbage... when you have to fight the tech itself to play the game - something is very wrong

[TheMiracle]

Well!
hello from Argentina, Im a big fan o the series, Hope they fix the AI of the combatants, and the Performance issues...

Where is the Tweak thread for Gothic 3??:S

BTW, I delete my INI directori, in thegame's folder, and its running a little better, how come??????

[Maylander]

Yep, I agree with the add-on bit being interesting - as mentioned above, Gothic 2 also lacked depth, and felt unfinished in certain ways. A gothic 3 add-on might do to G3 what NotR did to G2. I'm looking forward to this. :)

[ToddMcF2002]

face it - PB bit off WAAAY more than they could chew with this engine.. its fucking garbage... when you have to fight the tech itself to play the game - something is very wrong

I wasnt around for G2's original release but technically the engine for its day was pretty impressive compared to its competition (Morrowind). Was that release a mess? Was it as bad as this one? I think its safe to say G3's release is a technical disaster at this point. Its pretty funny really - Oblivion got quite a bit of backlash for being a resource hog but G3 seems to have taken the real crown.


They should have just tweaked the G2 engine.