Fallout "True Sequel" Community Effort

[Dhruin]

Via NMA (http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38428) comes news of a community effort to build a Fallout "True Sequel (http://sequel.fifengine.de/webpage/index.html)" using the FIFE engine (http://fifengine.de/):
We are currently building a techdemo and some dev tools, which will be done in near future.
With finishing that milestone, the actual work on the game could begin.

Part of this milestone is a first techdemo which includes a Vault Dweller running through a wood.

So we can use some people who have knowledge about Fallout , who are 2D/3D artists or can write stories or just want to contribute ideas. Java specialists are welcome too.

We could need a new Vault Dweller, be creative and contribute concept art and develop it to animation-sprites. You would directly contribute to the techdemo and thus to the later game. Furthermore we could use environmental sprites, like trees, walls and similar.

We also need a storyline done by Fallout geeks. Work out ideas for a Fallout Sequel, that can be fun really!
Head over to read more or to throw your hat in the ring.
More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=6023)

[Brother None]

Cover the Mutants Rising mod demo too, if you wish, Dhruin.

Mutants Rising is the first major conversion attempt at Fallout to make it demo status. Great fun

[Lucky Day]

A good question for the team at Bethsoft might be to ask if you can mod FO3 like you can Morrowind and Oblivion..or if you will be able to import anything over to it.

[xSamhainx]

you people have finally, officially lost it

[Squeek]

I have to agree that it does seem awfully official. But I finally lost something once, and that wasn't such a bad thing. Heck, congratulations may even be in order! Way to go, NMA!

At the very least I expect the "True Sequel" will probably be mentioned in every future review of FO3. This news may ruin one of Pete's mornings...maybe even an entire week.

You guys are cruel. I like that.

[Prime Junta]

Good luck. If it ever makes it to release, I for one will be thrilled to play it.

[GhanBuriGhan]

Wonder if Bethesda will put its foot down on the use of the Fallout name. That was allways the big worry of all the Ultima fan projects, wasn't it.
Other than that, action is much better than all the moaning and "the end is nigh" mutterings. Way to go NMA, indeed!

[father lamat]

I'm a big supporter of community based and open source development, but spite is a horrible base for the creative jihad.

[txa1265]

Good luck, I'll certainly play whatever they manage to do!

[Brother None]

Way to go NMA, indeed!

Please note the newspost only says the news comes via us.

NMA is not officially related or even hosting this project. The people working on it are NMA forum members, but that's about it. When a bunch of them initially asked about it, a number of admins discouraged it on the note that it'd probably not go anywhere (project like these rarely do), I'm surprised they made it this far.

So we haven't lost it yet, Samhain ;)

I fully expect Bethesda to slap a lawsuit on these guys. It would be in keeping of their style.

[Corwin]

A lawsuit would be humorous; what would Beth$oft get out of it, except a lot of bad press. I'm sure the modders have few assets!! :)

[GhanBuriGhan]

Please note the newspost only says the news comes via us.

NMA is not officially related or even hosting this project. The people working on it are NMA forum members, but that's about it. When a bunch of them initially asked about it, a number of admins discouraged it on the note that it'd probably not go anywhere (project like these rarely do), I'm surprised they made it this far.

So we haven't lost it yet, Samhain ;)

I fully expect Bethesda to slap a lawsuit on these guys. It would be in keeping of their style.
I know, but they are still a part of your community. I always thought it was a bit dissapointing that a supposedly so dedicated fanbase couldn't get something substantial together in terms of mods, game projects, etc.. We'll see where it goes.
As to a lawsuit, I wouldn't be surprised. They certainly won't get endorsement.

[GhanBuriGhan]

A lawsuit would be humorous; what would Beth$oft get out of it, except a lot of bad press. I'm sure the modders have few assets!! :)

An actual lawsuit is unlikely - but a cease and desist note is probably all that is needed. It happens all the time. A promising LOTR TES mod ended that way (Tolkien Estate), The Ultima 1 remake couldn't get an agreement they wouldnt get sued, and thus dropped it (although Lazarus is probably an indication they should have perseered). There were more, but I can't remeber.

[Brother None]

A lawsuit would be humorous; what would Beth$oft get out of it, except a lot of bad press. I'm sure the modders have few assets!! :)

Bethesda does not care about either its own gain or bad press. They just like suing. (http://www.replacementdocs.com/news.php?item.105.1)

I always thought it was a bit dissapointing that a supposedly so dedicated fanbase couldn't get something substantial together in terms of mods, game projects, etc.

I don't. I always found it a bit annoying that people would assume that just because a community is there the energy and focus for major projects was available. It's not that easy, and that's nobody's fault.

I have more trust in projects led by solitary dedicated people, like VDweller's Age of Decadence or some of the older total conversion mods, or whatever future projects will pop up from disappointment on Fallout 3. I have more hope of groups of half-a-dozen visionary, dedicated nutjobs getting good games out there than any kind of community effort.

And I think it's unfair to pretend NMA is obligated to make something "substantial."

[txa1265]

Bethesda does not care about either its own gain or bad press. They just like suing. (http://www.replacementdocs.com/news.php?item.105.1)
I don't know if it is 'like suing' or just blind and overzealous IP protection ...

[rune_74]

God, brother none...I'm sure the company just loves suing....man that sounded so dumb. Any company will protect its ip's....you zealots need to learn this.

[mogwins]

God, brother none...I'm sure the company just loves suing....man that sounded so dumb. Any company will protect its ip's....you zealots need to learn this.

But think about it: No-one is going to download this little community project INSTEAD of buying Bethesda's all-singing, all-dancing Fallout 3. And as long as it's clear that Bethesda is in no way associated with the fan-made effort, even if it sucks, it's not going to tarnish Bethesda's reputation or their ability to shift Fallout-based titles. The only effect it could have is to increase awareness of Bethesda's official Fallout line, thus increasing sales. Bethesda wins all round.

I still think they'll sue though. That's just the mentality of big games companies nowadays (EA being the prime example).

[Gallifrey]

A lawsuit is likely, if only because Bethesda's lawyers will automatically initiate action against any unauthorized IP usage. It's unlikely that Pete Hines sits in his office all day looking for IP infractions and then calls the lawyers, the legal department is almost certainly an autonomous division. And they do what they are paid to do, it's their job, not some campaign of vindictiveness or greed.

[GhanBuriGhan]

Bethesda does not care about either its own gain or bad press. They just like suing. (http://www.replacementdocs.com/news.php?item.105.1)



I don't. I always found it a bit annoying that people would assume that just because a community is there the energy and focus for major projects was available. It's not that easy, and that's nobody's fault.

I have more trust in projects led by solitary dedicated people, like VDweller's Age of Decadence or some of the older total conversion mods, or whatever future projects will pop up from disappointment on Fallout 3. I have more hope of groups of half-a-dozen visionary, dedicated nutjobs getting good games out there than any kind of community effort.

And I think it's unfair to pretend NMA is obligated to make something "substantial."

Well, the community that I was first involved in was the TES community, and within that the modding community. Starting with Daggerfall. Believe me, there was much mumbling and hating of those games too. But there were many who just took things in there own hands and changed the games to what they liked. And yes, above and beyond of what was possible with the tools that Bethesda provided (none for DF e.g.). Single people, group efforts, etc. Some failed, some succeeded, but many tried. Thats the spirit, imho.
Maybe there is not enough true programming talent, or maybe its just too much fun to play FO 1 and 2 over and over, I don't know and don't care. But while I certainly agree that it cant be expected of any community to be active in that way, I am comfortable saying that it will always improve my opinion if I see it happening. Hence I am happy with seeing this effort. (And yes, I consider AoD such an effort too, and it has immeasurably improved my opinion of VD). Well thats where my comment was coming from.

[Gorath]

Many IP owners and even many developers simply don´t understand the concept of "fan games" or "fan mods" or whatever you want to call them.

The IP owner´s perspective: It´s our IP. We´ve made huge investments in it and we demand full control. Only we decide if and when new product is made.

Developer´s perspective: Why don´t these guys do something creative instead of rehashing an old game? If they can make a good game with a "borrowed" IP they could make an at least equally good game while creating a new IP. I have to work on [Generic Game][year++] day in, day out. They don´t have this limitation but want to work on something old ?! And take the risk that the IP holder watches them for years and sends them a C&D when their game is ready to ship ?!

[magerette]

God, brother none...I'm sure the company just loves suing....man that sounded so dumb. Any company will protect its ip's....you zealots need to learn this.

The linked paragraph does seem to me to support Brother None's claim. Requiring the manual documentation to be withdrawn when a game is already freeware(Arena) seems just a bit over zealous to me.

[Squeek]

Many IP owners and even many developers simply don´t understand the concept of "fan games" or "fan mods" or whatever you want to call them.Well, the rest of us understand it fine. Maybe the sharper, brighter IP owners and developers can give the other ones a hand in figuring it out.

OK, that's sarcasm (sorry), but this conflict of interest doesn't have anything to do with misunderstanding simple concepts, IMO. It's about how some businesses compare their advantages: The benefits of being nice on the one hand versus the value of asserting control over your property on the other.

IMO, the folks over at Bethesda feel they're so hot that they don't have to be nice, and that's why they protect their IP so diligently. I don't like that.

[Moriendor]

I still think they'll sue though. That's just the mentality of big games companies nowadays (EA being the prime example).

Yeah. Those BASTARDS, man. Whatever happened to this, you know, like cooool idea of communism and just sharing shit with everyone, duuuude? *rolls another fat one* :rolleyes:

[mogwins]

Yeah. Those BASTARDS, man. Whatever happened to this, you know, like cooool idea of communism and just sharing shit with everyone, duuuude? *rolls another fat one* :rolleyes:

Um, did you read the first half of that post (the one bit you didn't quote), where I stated it's probably in their best commercial interests not to sue small community projects? Whether you agree with that conclusion or not, you've completely misrepresented my stand-point - I never even suggested they shouldn't sue out of some sharing, kind-hearted nature?

[Prime Junta]

Um, did you read the first half of that post (the one bit you didn't quote), where I stated it's probably in their best commercial interests not to sue small community projects? Whether you agree with that conclusion or not, you've completely misrepresented my stand-point - I never even suggested they shouldn't sue out of some sharing, kind-hearted nature?

It's a bit tricky. If they don't protect their IP, it risks sliding into the public domain; if they do, there will be a backlash. The practice that has evolved appears to be that non-commercial modifications that require a licensed version of a product to run aren't pursued (example: Team Gizka and The Sith Lords Restoration Project) but stand-alone products using IP will be.

In other words, I'd say the odds are that at least a cease-and-desist letter is on the cards, and if that's not respected, possibly even legal proceedings. Of course, if they're *really* nasty, they'll let the project wander on until near release, and *then* slap it with a lawsuit.

Of course, if they renamed it "Fullout" and called it parody, it would be another story...

[mogwins]

I agree that the issue of whether or not Beth should protect their IP is a complicated issue. The post you quote was merely made to state that I think they should allow the use of their IP because I believe it's in their best commercial interests, rather than because I'm some pot-smoking hippie who believes in sharing (as Moriender misrepresented me to be). I can equally see the argument for IP protection, from a commercial standpoint.

As for non-commercial mods that require the original product - you can see why companies might allow these - they require the product to be sold! Though even then, some companies clamp down on them, which I think is a mistake from a commercial standpoint .

I also agree that subtle changes in the community game name, etc., could easily get round the whole issue (exhibit A: Lazarus and lawsuit-happy EA).

[father lamat]

Um, did you read the first half of that post (the one bit you didn't quote), where I stated it's probably in their best commercial interests not to sue small community projects?

How is it not in their interest? I mean, they own the rights and it's something of a duty to protect that. When said project is a mix of bad fan-fic, decade old graphics tech and an attitude of 'lol, we're better than you', it is in your best corporate and commercial interest to shut it down. What's the fallout (lol) from doing so anyways? The guys on NMA will talk shit about you? I think that ship has already sailed.

No need to sue when a cease and desist will do however.

[Moriendor]

...rather than because I'm some pot-smoking hippie who believes in sharing (as Moriender misrepresented me to be

Sorry, it wasn't meant to be a personal attack against you but just a sarcastic remark on the general commie attitude that is displayed throughout this thread ;) . Your quote was the most convenient to pick out since it was short and concise. You became a collateral damage victim so to speak. Apologies again :) .

[flabbyjack]

java? No, seriously -- JAVA?!?

[xSamhainx]

damn, the communists have even entrenched themselves within our sacred gaming community. Is nothing safe?

[mogwins]

Sorry, it wasn't meant to be a personal attack against you but just a sarcastic remark on the general commie attitude that is displayed throughout this thread ;) . Your quote was the most convenient to pick out since it was short and concise. You became a collateral damage victim so to speak. Apologies again :) .

Oh, no worries! And I didn't take it personally. In fact, I'd go as far as to say I agree with you that people shouldn't be bemoaning Bethesda being "mean and selfish". They paid for, and own, the IP and they intend to make money from it - they are a business! However, I tried to separate myself from those masses, by stating a possible commercial basis for Bethesda not suing. Of course, whether or not that stance is economically viable or not is a very complex issue, as others have pointed out.

[mogwins]

How is it not in their interest? I mean, they own the rights and it's something of a duty to protect that. When said project is a mix of bad fan-fic, decade old graphics tech and an attitude of 'lol, we're better than you', it is in your best corporate and commercial interest to shut it down. What's the fallout (lol) from doing so anyways? The guys on NMA will talk shit about you? I think that ship has already sailed.

No need to sue when a cease and desist will do however.

In this case, you are probably correct - the fan-made effort may well detract from the Bethesda/Fallout brand-name.

I don't think that always has to be the case though: Prime Junta pointed out the Sith Lords restoration project. And Vampire: Bloodlines has benefited a great deal from fan intervention. Of course, both those examples require you to own the original, and one is from a now defunct software house... However, I still think that the right fan-project could raise the profile of a brand name enough that the IP holder could reap the commercial benefit. My point about the "mentality of software companies nowadays" was that I don't think they consider the potential free marketing opportunity - I think they automatically sue/cease-and-desist, as the law branch is autonomously doing their own thing.

[Brother None]

At the risk of sounding rabidly anti-Bethesda again, I agree with mogwins in theory but don't believe it applies directly to Bethesda.

Their modding support is good, but it's not excellent. (better than Fallout's, which also explains our slow progress. Some of the things modders have done with the game by now are amazing, tho')

On the other hand, Todd Howard seems to get pretty defensive about people modding his game and messing with his property, oddly enough, and certain modders aren't modders anymore but "hackers." I think Bethesda has a stricter view of what they consider beneficial modding.

And that's not nice, because their games really benefit from the excellent mods out there. A lot.

Also: someone noted Bethesda just has a seperate legal corp that spends its time hunting down stuff like this. That's very correct, that's often what happens with bigger companies, as they become more jealous of their property. Sometimes justified, sometimes it's just bad PR. In this case, it's mostly because Bethesda is owned by ZeniMax, and ZM is just an archetype evil corporation thing (run by people of the Democratic party, too. Heh)

[Moriendor]

However, I still think that the right fan-project could raise the profile of a brand name enough that the IP holder could reap the commercial benefit. My point about the "mentality of software companies nowadays" was that I don't think they consider the potential free marketing opportunity - I think they automatically sue/cease-and-desist, as the law branch is autonomously doing their own thing.

Yes, but on the other hand you have the modders who "automatically" assume that they can screw around with a foreign IP as they please. I have very rarely heard of a case where a mod team -instead of basically starting a sneaky guerilla attack on the IP- actually, you know, ASKED the IP holder for CONSENT in advance of starting work on the project. I think that would be a thing of common sense and courtesy really to at least attempt to establish a line of communication and to check with the IP holder if it would be OK with them if you did a project based on their IP. Ring them up. Ask to talk to their legal department. Offer them to send them detailed design docs so they can see for themselves which elements of their IP will be used in which ways. Offer them proper credit (like non-skippable intro/outro screens where it says for 10 seconds "Based on a game by [IP holder]" and appropriate footnotes in the main menu screen. Talk to them. Ask under which conditions (if at all) they'd not consider legal proceedings.

But if you do none of the above then please be so kind as to STFU if you get your butt kicked by the IP holder's legal department. You had it coming. And it could have been avoided by some simple communication even if you don't like the outcome. If they say "no" then you just got to accept it just as if you would expect someone to accept it when you say "no" to someone who wants to enter your house or apartment. It's their property. No trespassing w/o consent. Period.

[father lamat]

Prime Junta pointed out the Sith Lords restoration project. And Vampire: Bloodlines has benefited a great deal from fan intervention.

Very much true but also entirely different. Not so much because they require the original product to make happen, but because there's a level of respect for the company that owns the rights... or at least the company who licensed said rights. I'm not so sure about wesp's level of communication with the cats from Troika nor the feedback that TSL: Resto get from Obsidian, but I'd imagine the relationship is cordial and respectful. Also, if you visit the defacto homes for these projects on the webs you're not going to find the words 'cocksnorkling beardo' or 'raping my favourite franchise' pop-up all that much.

Not that I'm so much into their games, not a fan of blades and elves, but reading their blog would suggest that the cats at Bethesda do have a sense of humour about things. They linked to a mod which ridicules Todd Howard*... seriously, it's a little midget that follows you around repeating all those wonderful PR comments he made during the games development. I don't see them going after Falloup, which is an internet comic based on the game world, nor have they shutdown the various places you pick up a blue and yellow ringer t-shirt with a big 13 on the back. Point being, they're relative kind with what they'll let slip by and I'm sure on some level they'd like to see projects like these made, most likely with their own tools but that's not really an option until after release. Like I said, I haven't really liked a game they've made since some silly bowling sim they put out in the nineties, but I do realize they're one of the earliest adopters of a company content/fan content model for game development and they're pretty much hands off when it comes to that... a casual glance at the somethingawful page regarding the latest batches of Oblivion mods will tell you that.

It's all about how you approach the situation really. Getting antagonistic with a company that can keep the next three or four generations of your family in the poorhouse is just stupid.

*On the other hand, Todd Howard seems to get pretty defensive about people modding his game and messing with his property, oddly enough, and certain modders aren't modders anymore but "hackers." I think Bethesda has a stricter view of what they consider beneficial modding.

You're being disingenuous and false. If you wanna lie, that's fine but it rings hollow.

[mogwins]

With regards to Moriendor's comments: Again, I agree! If you're basing your game on an existing IP, you should at least ask the IP holder for permission.

To be fair, as I understand it, a couple of the Ultima remakes did try this approach with EA, but got no response. As the games were nearly 20 years old they assumed EA didn't care and went ahead. Then towards the end of the project, after many years of work, they got a cease-and-desist order out of the blue. That, I think, is bad management of your IP (if EA intend to do anything with the Ultima brand, I think it could only be helped by people having played the remakes. Especially those too young to remember the originals), and bad PR all round. The upshot of all that was Ultima V becoming Lazarus, and the only reason I paid money for Dungeon Siege.

[Atrachasis]

To be fair, as I understand it, a couple of the Ultima remakes did try this approach with EA, but got no response. As the games were nearly 20 years old they assumed EA didn't care and went ahead. Then towards the end of the project, after many years of work, they got a cease-and-desist order out of the blue.

Interesting. Do you remember which remakes those were? I am aware of the Peroxide Ultima 1 remake and one Ultima 4 project, but had not heard about either of them actually getting a cease&desist - my impression was that they shut down their projects preemptively after failing to obtain a licence (I don't know if Peroxide's project was supposed to be commercial, which would certainly prompt harsher action from the IP holder). As far as I understand, Lazarus never received any official licence either, but are apparently tolerated - or am I mistaken?

Which would not surprise me. If I was a big, greedy game publishing company, and an amateur developer team approached me with a request for a licence, I would simply not react. If their project garners positive publicity for my IP, I will reap the benefits. If it takes a route that would damage the IP, I can always have it shut down at my whim. Why would I give up that power by formally granting a licence?

My personal opinion is that, if you think you have the creative skills to write an RPG, please put some of that creativity into coming up with an original IP. Failing that, it would seem exceedingly optimistic for an amateur developer with no credentials to expect to obtain a licence from the holder of a multi-million dollar IP, so that cease & desist may be the Damocles' sword that you will just have to live with.

[mogwins]

Atrachasis, I was primarily referring to Ultima V, which became Lazarus after EA made a few threats. I thought something similar had happened with some the the "earlier" (in terms of Ultima series) remakes, but my memory could be deceiving me.

Just a small point, but I don't think any of them wanted to licence the IP, per se, they just wanted to politely inform EA what they were doing and check that EA wouldn't object. As small, not-for-profit projects, licencing would be far too formal (not to mention costly!). Though it would certainly be required for a commercial project - if that was really the case with Peroxide, I don't know what they were thinking!


If I was a big, greedy game publishing company, and an amateur developer team approached me with a request for a licence, I would simply not react. If their project garners positive publicity for my IP, I will reap the benefits. If it takes a route that would damage the IP, I can always have it shut down at my whim.

I agree this stance makes good business (if not moral!) sense. However, I don't see how this fits with what happened with Lazarus/Ultima V? Lazarus didn't take away from any EA sales, I think it's rejuvenated interest in the Ultima brand (leading the way for a possible new, profitable Ultima game - and yet EA still does nothing with the IP), yet EA tried to shut it down? That just seems like a bad idea whatever way you look at it.

[Lucky Day]

To be honest with the venom and outright immaturity that the Fallout community has shown in the past I hate to say I don't have much faith in a user made mod.

With the first Fallout Steve Jackson was at least around for most of the development to keep a lid on what Interplay did.

It seems to me this could end up being something like what John K did with Ren and Stimpy after he got the rights back and didn't have Nicklodeon to keep him in line and productive (it was so bad even Spike TV pulled it after 4 episodes; not that the Nick solo ones were any good).

I can hope to be proven wrong though.

[Brother None]

You're being disingenuous and false. If you wanna lie, that's fine but it rings hollow.

Right, you're sorry, my bad, it wasn't Todd Howard, it was Pete Hines who referred to the nude mod of Oblivion as "hacking" despite the fact that the extraction utility used for the mod was publicly used by other modders on the official Bethesda forums.

Nice jumping out to scream "liar" instinctively, though. Guilty conscience?

To be honest with the venom and outright immaturity that the Fallout community has shown in the past I hate to say I don't have much faith in a user made mod.

Oh yes, we're much worse than, say, people that obsessively hate us without any direct provocation. We're such bad guys.

With the first Fallout Steve Jackson was at least around for most of the development to keep a lid on what Interplay did.

What lid? Steve Jackson was fine with everything in Fallout except the Vault Boy an opening execution scene, but he didn't jump under the contract, Interplay did (Frith knows why). Not sure if Steve Jackson was actively there to keep the lid on things before that, to be honest

[Lucky Day]

..Oh yes, we're much worse than, say, people that obsessively hate us without any direct provocation. We're such bad guys...

And a bit paranoid.

[rune_74]

Brother none....Did you guys ever think if you put things out rationaly and tried to be constructive rather then destructive you would get more things done?

[Brother None]

And a bit paranoid.

Paranoid? I had 6 months of continuous attempts to penetrate the firewall on my PC from Something Awful at a time, which was the same time they were DOSsing NMA and had banned all known NMA members from their forums for being NMA members, all after the whole HayT business. Then more recently another attempt to break into an admin's account, and I stumbled upon a planned 420chan raid towards NMA not a month ago that could thankfully trip up before it started. I've heard a GameSpy editor utter the personal wish that we all die from a horrible disease to then mozy over to SA and see them ready to break upon the champagne bottles to celebrate how awesome it is that we've had horrible diseases wished upon us. I've been personally called a psychopath over a weird misinterpretation of the Glittering Gems article.

I think that all goes beyond paranoid. It is pretty obvious there are groups out there with stated malicious intent towards NMA, who will not shy from attempting to DOS or hack our site or PCs.

And what's the worst we've done? Our front page is clean, mostly even of personal opinions. Our forum users are foul-mouths, and there're some bad apples, but they're no worse than the average SA user, and we remove the worst idiocies (like death threats). We ban people who try to incite cross-forum trolling or invasions on other forums.

Run by me, nice and slow, how NMA is the bad guy in this game of chess.

Hell, I'll be controversial and posit the opinion that the biggest problem people have with us is that we refuse to bend to their position, and that it makes them uncomfortable to see a group with stolid, different opinions than them, and that different-thinkers always annoy people. Considering this is the internet, I really don't see what else could be the cause of the way many people see us...well, that and reputations do grow themselves, with much to thank to Rosh there, which I'll gladly admit.

And yes, I'm keeping Bethesda out of the equation. I know this going to sound all "inside info lol!" but I've had Bethesda's internal policies and interest towards us revealed to me via via, and I have a hard time mentally placing them in the good guy category. That doesn't reflect on their gaming company part, though. Only PR and marketing. So purely from a "fan interaction" standpoint, not a "game making" standpoint. Very secondary, I know.

Brother none....Did you guys ever think if you put things out rationaly and tried to be constructive rather then destructive you would get more things done?

I don't possess a magic on-off switch that'll make all the forum users of NMA turn into hyper-intelligent rational beings. I hold no responsibility except for myself. Please point out where I've shown the tendency to be destructive rather than constructive, or irrational rather than rational.

A good start (http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?act=Search&nav=au&CODE=show&searchid=fad10f042ce1f53cb10d4c3f817d577d&search_in=topics&result_type=topics), count how many threads are informative or try to start a good discussion vs. irrational slobbering. They're all tending towards negative, I'll gladly give you that, but that's not the point.

[father lamat]

Right, you're sorry, my bad, it wasn't Todd Howard, it was Pete Hines who referred to the nude mod of Oblivion as "hacking" despite the fact that the extraction utility used for the mod was publicly used by other modders on the official Bethesda forums.

He doesn't like cunny and boob mods? Oh dear! He's quite the villain. Who doesn't make fun of the people who make those? Calling them 'hackers' is rather kind considering some of the nomenclature out there. Considering they're actually promoting a mod that cracks wise with members of their management team I'd say they've got a better sense of humour than some folks out there...

A good start

To what? A primer on how to talk out of your ass about things you couldn't possibly know? As for somethingawful, you burned one of their long time members who's been an active participant... and the site is full of assholes... you should have seen that coming miles away.

[Corwin]

I don't visit the NMA forums; the link doesn't even show up with the protections I run, but let's be fair here. Unless you want Mods who insta-ban and close threads etc, which from experience places like Beth$oft regularly do, then a site can't be held totally responsible for the content of its forums. We try to be very tolerant here and our posters respect and honour our intent. Other than spambots, we've done VERY little banning here. I judge NMA by its front page and by the team members who post here. By that criteria, they are doing well.

[Prime Junta]

Yes, but on the other hand you have the modders who "automatically" assume that they can screw around with a foreign IP as they please. I have very rarely heard of a case where a mod team -instead of basically starting a sneaky guerilla attack on the IP- actually, you know, ASKED the IP holder for CONSENT in advance of starting work on the project.

I know of one -- TSLRP, the one I mentioned above.

LucasArts and Obsidian didn't answer.

I can understand that too -- if they grant explicit permission and the project evolves into or spawns off something they don't like, they'll have a much harder time stopping it then. In any case, it would require drafting a contract, which costs money, which they won't want to spend on something that won't bring in any revenue. OTOH telling them "no" would be bad publicity... and it's quite likely that at least some people in the companies actually *want* something like that to happen.

So not commenting either way is the safest policy. For them.

[Prime Junta]

@Brother -- Do you honestly believe what you said -- that many people don't like NMA only because they can't stand someone with a different opinion? That really, truly you can't think of anything you may have done (wrong) to provoke the kind of response you're getting?

Just askin'...

[KasperFauerby]

Just a small point, but I don't think any of them wanted to licence the IP, per se, they just wanted to politely inform EA what they were doing and check that EA wouldn't object. As small, not-for-profit projects, licencing would be far too formal (not to mention costly!). Though it would certainly be required for a commercial project - if that was really the case with Peroxide, I don't know what they were thinking!


We never wanted to make money of the Ultima1 project! When I started that project I actually wanted to keep it fairly simple - just add some nice graphics to the simple gameplay of the original Ultima 1 game. Peroxide started that project to learn about game creation, because we love RPGs - and most of all to have some fun. Before we started I contacted Richard Garriott and described my plan, and he immediately gave his permission. I have nothing bad to say about Richard - he was enthusiastic about the idea and even played and gave feedback about our early tech demos. My mistake at that point was assuming that Richard was the one controlling the IP, when it was in reality already EAs property at that time!

What happened then was that the project grew and grew - and at a point we realized that we had some game technology that could actually compete with the commercial games that were out at the time. We also realized that we had put *a lot* of effort into getting there and that it would take *a lot* of effort still to actually finish the game in a quality we were content with outselves. At that point we decided, as a team, that we were *not* willing to risk being sued or shut down late in the process - so we contacted EA directly, multiple times, for an agreement that we were allowed to finish our project and distribute it as freeware. We didn't even get a response to the first few letters, but finally we did get a reply and what they said was quite clear - we were *not* allowed to use their IP, even for a freeware project. They didn't say that they would sue us - but we decided that it was not worth taking the chance. We did get *a lot* of heat for that decision with people yelling at us and saying that we chickened out for no good reason etc (well, easy for them to say - considering that all they did was posting on our forums and looking forward to getting a free RPG game...)

That's when we decided to try and go commercial with another RPG made on our own IP (the game called ERA). We tried to get funding to start up a company, but it's not that easy to make people invest in a small start-up game company. Even with our latest tech demo (which we sadly never released to the net..). We got quite far, made a few contacts - but the adventure ended with us all being hired by various game companies. I'm still a bit sad that we didn't get to make our RPG, but on the other hand it's nice with some job security and a monthly pay-check when you have a family to provide for.

[GhanBuriGhan]

*Ping* - KasperFauerby, now I finally knwo why I always thought I remembered the name, never made the connection until now. U1 / ERA seemed like a great project, I was sad to see it go. Still have the tech demo somewhere. Good to hear the team all got good jobs, at least.

[Dhruin]

D'oh. Neither did I. Thanks for that background...I'd always meant to find out where Peroxide went.

[Brother None]

He's quite the villain.

Paying more attention would've noted to you I never suggested he's a villain. I said he calls some modders modders and some hackers, even though both groups use the same tools. That makes no sense.

To what? A primer on how to talk out of your ass about things you couldn't possibly know?

I'm sorry. I should obviously use you as a role-model since you're polite and rational.

As for somethingawful, you burned one of their long time members who's been an active participant... and the site is full of assholes... you should have seen that coming miles away.

What? We didn't burn anyone. Who did we burn? We quoted a developer's words on our frontpage. Those are his words, his responsibility.

They're assholes, sure, does that excuse attempts to hack or DOS, which, last time I checked, are illegal?

@Brother -- Do you honestly believe what you said -- that many people don't like NMA only because they can't stand someone with a different opinion? That really, truly you can't think of anything you may have done (wrong) to provoke the kind of response you're getting?

Just askin'...

Hell no, I was playing devil's advocate. I think our "tough guy" nature has produced a lot of bad apples, some of whom are disproportionately represented. Like I said, big nod to Rosh for our bad rep, and to other people.

I'm not going to apologize for other people or our reputation, though. We are what we are, and I fail to see what we're doing wrong that would deserve DOS attacks or media editors wishing us dead on official airtime.

[Prime Junta]

Hell no, I was playing devil's advocate. I think our "tough guy" nature has produced a lot of bad apples, some of whom are disproportionately represented. Like I said, big nod to Rosh for our bad rep, and to other people.

I'm not going to apologize for other people or our reputation, though. We are what we are, and I fail to see what we're doing wrong that would deserve DOS attacks or media editors wishing us dead on official airtime.

OK, thanks for clearing that up. And no, you certainly haven't deserved DOS attacks or death threats, official or unofficial.

[Squeek]

Before we started I contacted Richard Garriott and described my plan....Awesome post! Too bad you were stonewalled and eventually turned down by EA. I'd say a lawyer, somewhere, probably evaluated your request.

I've found that most managers prefer not to have anything to do with lawyers and are reluctant to ask their opinions. It's difficult enough for managers to work as a team, but legal considerations tend to trump all others. That casts lawyers in opposition. They're like hired guns that you avoid until you need them.

That's why I prefer to work with privately-held companies, especially ones that are owned by individuals. There usually aren't any lawyers hanging around, and decisions are made more quickly and easily.

[Arpyjee]

Instead of making a replicas, why don't they make a variation or even a transformation on the FO theme/setting/engine ?

Call it Desolatium, or Realm Of Anarchy, or Volator or World Of Chaos (or...).

Then, gather some CREATIVE thinking specialists to use free-from imagination to brainstorm & invent the variations & transformations. Then, gather some technical & mechanical thinkers to make the creative artistry real , tangible and implemented practically.

You can do your own version of a post-apoc pc-rpg , heavily *influenced* by Fallout, in that the elements and ideas are fundamentally *derived* from it, but not overtly copied.

Eg. A recruitable Dog NPC that is a 2-headed Pitbull named Hercules. Call the Vaults "cellars". Call the stimpaks "medboosts" and make 'em look different.

Variations on a theme, a viable and legal avenue... and you can make 2 sequels !

(And btw, I'm not pro-corporate... I champion the underdog, the indie little guy in all cases...)

[xSamhainx]

agreed, I dont see why anyone would even want to mess with any possible BS. Go the "spiritual successor" route

[Brother None]

Agreed. A number of us are advising the same to them now. It is definitely preferable to go with the artistic sequel route, it's more legal, honest and artistic.

[Lucky Day]

I apologize on that then Brother None. I thought that was a direct comment on myself lumped in with "those that obsessively hate" (you).

I have about as much love for the Something Awful community as so called Fallout Fans. It doesn't surprise me that they'd do that.

--

Kasper, great post. Thanks for the update on what happened to you guys. I wasn't liking all the U4+ era ideas you guys were throwing in but I did like the techdemo. In the end it sounds like you got what you wanted, jobs in the industry. And would we have Lazarus today if it wasn't for you?

[Hedek]

How bout a parody as someone suggested? It's legal to parody anything you want according to the WIPO (wipo.org). Many TV shows parody movies, songs, other tv shows. I have yet never seen a computer game parody, but I don't see why it would be any different than another entertainement type.
Fallout 1 & 2 were already heavy parodies of 60/70's sci fi movies, comics and books so I don't think it would be difficult to make.
The title should be something stupid like "Fall out tree", the art as well, in the same vein as Fallout 1 & 2 mutants portraits. The original games were already so much like a parody with the goofy Vault Boy and Pip Boy, the videos advertising Mr Handy, etc. that a parody of Fallout could actually remain true to Fallout while courts would still have a hard time telling a parody of Fallout isn't actually a parody but a rip off.

[Brother None]

I apologize on that then Brother None. I thought that was a direct comment on myself lumped in with "those that obsessively hate" (you).

I might've been implying at lumping you in there, apologies.

There're only a few places on the internet that really hate NMA on an irrational level, though. Most either don't care (the vast majority, obviously) or kind of go "yeah, they're a little extreme, but..." something something. Sucks some of the times, doesn't at some others, but in the end you can't blame anyone for your reputation except yourself (malicious individuals aside)

[¬me]

agreed, I dont see why anyone would even want to mess with any possible BS. Go the "spiritual successor" route
That's what we want to do.

Agreed. A number of us are advising the same to them now. It is definitely preferable to go with the artistic sequel route, it's more legal, honest and artistic.
Yes thats right.
Sorry for this confusion again, it was just the very early first "working title".
Never even thought about that this could cause trouble. ^^
Of course that term can be misunderstood really heavily, so
we will change the name much earlier than planned.

But I really can not see why a good spiritual successor can not be a game which stays more true to the series than the actual sequel. ;)

[Ionstormsucks]

Call these guys idiots, call them dreamers, call them whatever you like - I have every respect for people who do something instead of just talk... thus said I'm more the type who talks... too much...