Fallout 3 - Preview @ Gameplayer

[magerette]

Gameplayer (http://www.gameplayer.com.au/Home/PREVIEWS/PREVIEWGAME/tabid/1484/Default.aspx?CID=22f321aa-30ee-4cc9-9a61-3f8bc030102e&v7Pager=1) has a preview of Bethsoft's upcoming post apocalyptic title, Fallout 3, calling it "the most highly anticipated RPGFPS there is," which sets the tone for the article:
Set a hundred years after the Cold War went hot, Fallout was a cannily scripted role-playing game with ridiculous gore and a soul-wrenchingly bleak outlook on life. You took the part of a survivor who was forced to emerge from his underground vault and confront the horrors of a post-nuclear world. Suffice to say, it built up an enormous, noisy fanbase who’ve been agitating for more sequels ever since the original Fallout 3 was canned back in 2003. Now Bethesda, developers of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion has taken on the mighty task of making a sequel.
The game will be using the same engine as Oblivion, though it’s been substantially altered to reflect the game’s focus on mid-ranged combat rather than beating goblins to death with broken twigs. However, the combat isn’t simple first-person combat, despite appearances. The Vault-tec Assisted Targeting System pauses the game in combat, whilst you target certain parts of your enemies’ bodies and they do the same to you. Actions take a certain number of action points, and different attacks will inflict different injuries but only have a certain chance of hitting, depending on your aptitudes and abilities...
The greatest foes in the Fallout series were the mutants, the survivors who had been stuck outside the vaults during the world-obliterating war and who weren’t so friendly to their non-deformed brethren. Worse even than them were the super-mutants – enormous lumps of muscle led by an über-super-mutant called the Master. The best way anyone has worked out of killing them is a bodged-up Nuclear Catapult!


Thanks to an anonymous donor for the tip!

More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=6768)

[Brother None]

Worst. Preview. Ever.

[Thaurin]

The reason being?

P.S. The write-up links to the second page of the preview.

[magerette]

P.S. The write-up links to the second page of the preview.

So that way you know I read the whole thing before I posted it. ;)

Seriously. sorry for the confusion--naturally you want to start reading at the beginning. It's fixed now. :)

[Brother None]

The reason being?

I've never seen so many factual mistakes in one preview. It is full of errors pertaining to both Fallout's setting/heritage and simple facts from the 3rd game (seriously, calling the Behemoth "the Master", ftw?)

[Thaurin]

Okay, I didn't know that. I never really played the old gamers. Hell, I didn't even read the preview yet. :p But nice to know it's a piece of crap, anyway. ;)

[Morbus]

The reason being?
Lol! :lol:

[rune_74]

Well, be thankfull we are even gettinga part 3....arcanum never will get a sequel.

[Morbus]

Well, be thankfull we are even gettinga part 3....arcanum never will get a sequel.
*sigh*
So be thankful for FOBoS too? What kind of retarded argument is that? Being thankful for seeing the series I loved distorted beyond recognition, is that it? Well, you and they'd better sell that crap elsewhere... Like in Mars or something...

[rune_74]

OK nice, lash out because someone is doing something you don't like. You and I both have not played the game, so we have no idea how it will play. Maybe your ass should go to mars instead of lashing out at people.

[Morbus]

OK nice, lash out because someone is doing something you don't like. You and I both have not played the game, so we have no idea how it will play. Maybe your ass should go to mars instead of lashing out at people.
Ok, fine, so you can stop bothering me with how you feel about a game you haven't played and stop complaining about complainers because I have some idea about how Fallout 3 will play and about how I'd feel when I'd play it so maybe you should go to mars along with my ass so it can fart on your face on outer space and zero gravity.

[/trolling]

[rune_74]

Well strike megascore off my list of places to visit. Nice.

[Thaurin]

Yeah, this kind of fanaticism is kind of weird. I've never quite understood it. It's like when people screamed that their childhood memories had been crushed by George Lucas when he made Phantom Menace. Sounds a little emotionally unstable to me.

You may be disappointed with the way Bethesda is making this next Fallout game, but it won't change a thing about the many hours of fun you've experienced with the old games. If you're worried it will, simply steer clear of the title.

[Morbus]

Well strike megascore off my list of places to visit. Nice.
You wouldn't like it anyway ;)

Yeah, this kind of fanaticism is kind of weird. I've never quite understood it. It's like when people screamed that their childhood memories had been crushed by George Lucas when he made Phantom Menace. Sounds a little emotionally unstable to me.

You may be disappointed with the way Bethesda is making this next Fallout game, but it won't change a thing about the many hours of fun you've experienced with the old games. If you're worried it will, simply steer clear of the title.
Fanaticism? Firstly, I was being sarcastic, and secondly, what about rune_74 that told me to be thankful that there is a game I don't like? Isn't that a bit fanatical?

Anyway, I don't care what anyone thinks, but I'm not fanatical about Fallout. I don't really care anymore either... As you said, I still have the first games, and, thankfully, still have one or two games to look forward to... As long as there is a game in the horizon that will probably satisfy me, I'm fine... Problem is, it won't take much to have no game such as that...

[Thaurin]

That rune_74 said to be thankful you're getting a next game at all probably had a meaning behind it, such as, "By what right are you complaining? You don't own the franchise; be happy with what you've got!" or something like that. Not that you should literally drop to your knees and praise the Lord(s), because, of course, you as a (excuse me for using the word) consumer still have the final choice of what you consume and how you like it.

Anyways, the sarcasm wasn't readily apparent, I must admit. It sounded more like over-dramatisation, like happens so often when something about this franchise gets released.

[KasperFauerby]

It's a waste of time to argue with "the true Fallout fans" - or at least that's my conclusion after reading post after post with their endless bickering and complaining about Fallout 3. They are never going to like *any* new game in the Fallout setting done by *any* developer (well, except for themselves obviously - they know *exactly* what would make a great Fallout game). It's a shame really. It could have been an interesting discussion, but as things are it's best to simply ignore them completely (IMO of course).

[mogwins]

They are never going to like *any* new game in the Fallout setting done by *any* developer.

Hmmm, I wasn't going to get drawn into this discussion, but I feel I'm a fairly big Fallout fan (having played the first two numerous times each), and I don't think that comment's at all fair. I'd dearly love a sequel to Fallout. It wouldn't have to be identical to the first two, I know gaming moves on. But I really do fail to see how Oblivion in a post-apocalyptic setting is in any way a sequel to the Fallout games I played? From what I've read, it seems highly unlikely to retain any of the gameplay elements that have kept be coming back to Interplay's two offerings.

I know Bethesda owns the licence, and I know they can do what the hell they like with it, and that's just fine. But telling Fallout fans they should be grateful because they're getting a sequel to their beloved games is just wrong. They're not. They're getting a console-friendly, FPS with some RPG-lite elements, because that's what sells in today's market. I understand why Bethesda's doing that. I'm not angry with that/them. I don't feel any sense of entitlement for them to give me what I, personally, want from a Fallout game. But it's not a Fallout sequel in anything other than name.

[KasperFauerby]

Hmmm, I wasn't going to get drawn into this discussion, but I feel I'm a fairly big Fallout fan (having played the first two numerous times each), and I don't think that comment's at all fair.

Well, feel free to apply your own filter to my definition of "true Fallout fan". That's why I put quotation marks around the term :) By your definition, I'm a fairly big Fallout fan as well! I just don't agree with those fans who tends to simply write everything off that comes from Bethesda regarding the FO series. As you point out Bethesda owns the license, so why not try and keep an open mind about their product? To take a quote from this thread:

"So be thankful for FOBoS too? What kind of retarded argument is that? Being thankful for seeing the series I loved distorted beyond recognition, is that it? Well, you and they'd better sell that crap elsewhere... Like in Mars or something... "

Well, I just don't find that to be a very constructive or intelligent argument - and I would be very surprised if that particular poster would keep an open mind about anything regarding the FO series. He is indeed worthy of my "ignore filter". In any case, you don't sound anything like that and therefore my original post is not directed at you :)

[rune_74]

What I meant for the fanatics in here was that in todays crpg world the odds of getting a sequel to game you enjoyed and I mean any sequel no matter how much its watered down is next to none. Look at the ultima's or arcanum ( which I was lamenting will not be comming, oh and did you notice they had a sequel planned that would have been like vampire?) they are as good as dead.

You know what I enjoyed Oblivion...was it a great rpg? no, but it was fun for what it was...I also enjoy old school rpg's, and I support alot of the indie devs because they are the ones that wil provide you with the rpg's of old(and sometimes new ideas).

So for me at the moment at least I'm happy I have a chance to revisit the fallout world...is it the exact same as the previous 2? no, but hopefully it will be fun, and guess what at least there is a chance instead of none at all.

PS thanks for the backup kasper

[Morbus]

Both sides are isolated. Don't tire yourself trying to understand. I like some new games, for instance... StarCraft 2, probably Crysis, and already released like Gothic 3, Company of Heroes, STALKER, FEAR... of course I don't like ANY game unless Fallout, but that's a side thing, even if paradoxal... :sigh:

No, seriously, don't bother... As I said, both sides are isolated. I write about it, you complain about me writing, you write about it, I complain about you being stupid. As simple as that...

As for the sarcasm, I understand it was not apparent, but it was there.

[The Watchman]

It's a waste of time to argue with "the true Fallout fans" - or at least that's my conclusion after reading post after post with their endless bickering and complaining about Fallout 3. They are never going to like *any* new game in the Fallout setting done by *any* developer (well, except for themselves obviously - they know *exactly* what would make a great Fallout game). It's a shame really. It could have been an interesting discussion, but as things are it's best to simply ignore them completely (IMO of course).

What complete and utter nonsense, what people dont like is the moronic way beth is going around things. Sure you can find quotes etc from back to VB days about how people didnt like xx or yy, but none ever claimed it was so far from the originals, that the ip might as well be dead.

What we are seeing today is something so remote from fallout that its not even fun, its a braindead filler for the shitbox kiddies and if you cant see it... well... then you are target audience aint you !

[rune_74]

Both sides are isolated. Don't tire yourself trying to understand. I like some new games, for instance... StarCraft 2, probably Crysis, and already released like Gothic 3, Company of Heroes, STALKER, FEAR... of course I don't like ANY game unless Fallout, but that's a side thing, even if paradoxal... :sigh:

No, seriously, don't bother... As I said, both sides are isolated. I write about it, you complain about me writing, you write about it, I complain about you being stupid. As simple as that...

As for the sarcasm, I understand it was not apparent, but it was there.

Why would anyone care what you have to say, when you say it in the way you do? I won't even get into how hard it is to understand what you are trying to say.

You are an editor? wow.

[nessosin]

Why would anyone care what you have to say, when you say it in the way you do? I won't even get into how hard it is to understand what you are trying to say.

You are an editor? wow.

Why do you deny Morbus the right to state his own point of view? He has the same right to write about dumbing down Fallout 3 as you to praise Bethesda for making another game in the series. If you dont care what he says the dont comment on it.

[DArtagnan]

Well, being rather neutral towards the Fallout franchise, I like to believe I can see both sides of the coin.

I have a great intellectual respect for Fallout, because I recognize the great game that it was (and its sequel). However, I never personally cared for the setting, and so much of the potential enjoyment was lost upon me. This also means I don't have any emotional attachment, and that I'm relatively free when passing judgement.

However, I'm not neutral by any means when it comes to Bethesda, because I don't care for their games overall. It's supremely obvious to me that they're simply trying to be popular, and as a result, sell as many copies as they can without entirely abandoning their vision.

This might sound very harsh, and indeed I don't consider Oblivion (or most elderscrolls games) total artistic failures. In fact, I think they really believe in what they're doing. However, I can't look beyond how much is compromised for both technical and commercial reasons.

They've licensed some fine engines and they've done some amazing things with them, aesthetically. They took the Gamebryo engine, the Havok physics engine, the Speedtree engine, and did wonders with them. I won't deny that.

Also, times are different. When Fallout was made, a lot less was at stake commercially, because games were a LOT cheaper to produce, and as such fewer compromises were called for.

But to believe that Bethesda can be artistically true to Fallout and what it represents, is a total fantasy.

I'm sure they will do what they can within the constraints they're bound by, both technically (Xbox 360) and commercially (cost of production). But it won't be a game entirely true to the originals, and that is something I consider a pretty sad fact.

[rune_74]

Why do you deny Morbus the right to state his own point of view? He has the same right to write about dumbing down Fallout 3 as you to praise Bethesda for making another game in the series. If you dont care what he says the dont comment on it.


How am I denying him his right...I could care less if he did or did not like it, it was teh way he went about it. Look back and see it was him lashing out at me that started this...not the other way around...I think I have even explained my stance without comming across as a condescending jerk.

[xSamhainx]

I think that English is a second language to Morbus, therefore perhaps he may not be coming across at times quite clearly, or how he means to be coming across. For instance, in the "technical problems" headline on his site, he (or a fellow non-native english speaker i guess) thanks readers "for their comprehension", twice. You dont thank people for comprehending you unless youre either falling down drunk, or a stranger in a strange land who doesnt know exactly what he's saying.

This reads to me like someone's result of translation software for the word "understanding", or search result, or something of that nature. He's also trying (as far as I can see) to be sarcastically or playfully funny and kidding at times in his posts, but this comes across harsher than I think he means it to. Just my opinion of course.

Or hell, maybe he's drunk!

[rune_74]

I agree, this went to far and I felt a bit bad about the more I read from him the more it became apparent he was not an english first language speaker. Oh well, over and done with.

[KasperFauerby]

What complete and utter nonsense .... braindead filler for the shitbox kiddies ....

Ah - the "shitbox" guy chimes in! :) You're one angry man, aren't you? Are you ever happy about anything in this life? If so, your posts surely doesn't show it. I just read through them all for fun, and I didn't find one single post where you were positive about anything (well, one or two were borderline happy - but then you remembered to add one or two things to complain about anyway). Some fun statistics about your two most used words (sometimes used in combination)

"shitbox": 9/18 posts
"kiddie": 7/18 posts

Other favorites include "moron", "moronic", "retarded", "euro crap" and "mainstream junk".

To the rest of you guys - I'm sorry about feeding the trolls, but this guy is just too funny to pass by without comment :)

[Thaurin]

Oh, I was just about to comment on the "shitbox" remark, but now you peaked my curiosity. I'm gonna read up on this guy. ;)

As for Bethesda being unable to step up to the plate for the Fallout franchise, I don't know. Maybe I have not researched it as much as I should to come across as educated on the matter, but I do believe them to be capable of producing high quality and intellectually superior games. I don't want to get into that old "lowest common denominator" crap again, but as far as I'm concerned, I can't find a reason that the next Fallout release by Bethesda can't reach the same heights as the originals, except nostalgia. See, that will never come back, ever. At the same time, Fallout 3 might suck. It might also be a very fun game that doesn't really resemble Fallout 1/2. I'd just take it for what it is, it leaves one less stressful in the end.

[Morbus]

Why would anyone care what you have to say, when you say it in the way you do? I won't even get into how hard it is to understand what you are trying to say.
You are an editor? wow.
Oh, I'm sorry, did I say anything? Because I didn't meant to make any serious argument here... So I don't care if anyone care to read what I wrote here, because it wasn't meant to be anything interesting... I was talking to you.

And yes, I am an editor... Actually, I am *the* editor. But don't bother seeing if there's anything to it. There's not catch: I am the editor of a very big and influential gaming site.

Also, I don't need to talk here when posters like DArtagnan say it all how I think it is ;)

How am I denying him his right...I could care less if he did or did not like it, it was teh way he went about it. Look back and see it was him lashing out at me that started this...not the other way around...I think I have even explained my stance without comming across as a condescending jerk.
You are right. I started it and I was being a jerk... Well, I'm a jerk for the most part... Not that I regret it, I just don't really care what you or anybody else thinks about me. Those who know me know how I am and how I think, there are also those who think they know me for some things I write... In the end, I don't really care. I started it, and I replied to your border-trolling with plain-clear-trolling. I won't apologize to you though, as you took it fullheartedly... I do apologize to those that didn't like my attitude, and didn't like me being a jerk. I'll try to refrain from being one in the future.

I think that English is a second language to Morbus, therefore perhaps he may not be coming across at times quite clearly, or how he means to be coming across. For instance, in the "technical problems" headline on his site, he (or a fellow non-native english speaker i guess) thanks readers "for their comprehension", twice. You dont thank people for comprehending you unless youre either falling down drunk, or a stranger in a strange land who doesnt know exactly what he's saying.

This reads to me like someone's result of translation software for the word "understanding", or search result, or something of that nature. He's also trying (as far as I can see) to be sarcastically or playfully funny and kidding at times in his posts, but this comes across harsher than I think he means it to. Just my opinion of course.

Or hell, maybe he's drunk!
I don't use translation software, but yes, english is my second language... I'll correct that, thanks for pointing it out..

I agree, this went to far and I felt a bit bad about the more I read from him the more it became apparent he was not an english first language speaker. Oh well, over and done with.
rune, don't take it personally... We're still strangers ;)

[skavenhorde]

But to believe that Bethesda can be artistically true to Fallout and what it represents, is a total fantasy.

This pretty much summed up anything I could say about the whole Fallout/Beth argument other than Fallout was a game filled with interesting plots and I'm afraid that Beth will turn it into the sandboxes filled with cookie cutter NPCs and MMORPG type quests/main quest.

I don't use translation software, but yes, english is my second language... I'll correct that, thanks for pointing it out..

This whole lost in translation argument was like so many I've had with my girlfriend because I took offense at something she said or she got upset at something I said and it turned out neither of us meant what the other thought. I think that this argument wasn't quite lost in translation.

[Morbus]

This whole lost in translation argument was like so many I've had with my girlfriend because I took offense at something she said or she got upset at something I said and it turned out neither of us meant what the other thought. I think that this argument wasn't quite lost in translation.
It wasn't me who brought that up...

[Dhruin]

It might also be a very fun game that doesn't really resemble Fallout 1/2. I'd just take it for what it is, it leaves one less stressful in the end.

I should leave this thread alone because it isn't going anywhere...but, here goes.

This quote is actually the root of the problem (the quote, not you). For all sorts of things in life - books, movies, sports, religion, politics, fashion...games... - there are things people enjoy so much, they embrace as key experiences or even part of their identity. For everyone else, who cares? Most people have something, somewhere that fits this category for them but they have absolutely no sympathy for different views.

Ever seen a football [insert sport of choice] team that is being merged with another, and the old guernsey or team colours are being changed? They feel the team's history is being discarded. For fans of other teams (or even non-fans), they don't get the whole fuss - it's just a bunch of blokes running around a park, after all.

Or a million other examples. Outraged that Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings took some liberties with the text or that your favourite band has abandoned their roots to make mainstream pop or whatever. Somewhere, there is something you have been upset about because it is no longer what you want it to be.

If Bethsoft made a game called PostApoc: A Journey Into Oblivion, noone would care. Buying the Fallout license and calling their game "Fallout 3" means this game has a lineage that certain people want to be respected, and that means a good game that has little to do with Fallout doesn't cut it.

[Brother None]

Dhruin, I think this argument is made surprisingly well by SeanMike in this article (http://www.gamersinfo.net/staff_blogs/seanmike/2007/07/25/p65), though he limits it to the fact that Fallout 3 shouldn't claim to be a direct sequel (it could claim to be a spin-off or new start, according to him). It's not that complicated that names make expectations, and that's Bethesda's own choice and burden, not anyone else's fault.

And hell yeah this thread is going nowhere, same reason I avoided it so far. But:

And yes, I am an editor... Actually, I am *the* editor. But don't bother seeing if there's anything to it. There's not catch: I am the editor of a very big and influential gaming site.

Really? A very big and influential gaming site? Which one? Last time I checked on alexa, megascore.biz didn't register as a blip (http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?site0=gamebanshee.com&site1=nma-fallout.com&site2=rpgwatch.com&site3=megascore.biz&y=r&z=3&h=300&w=610&range=3m&size=Medium&url=gamebanshee.com) and your own tracker registers 5293 views. Be honest, Morbus.

And yeah, you're being pretty offensive, and like the others here I'm having an unusually hard time figuring out what you mean with some posts. I'm also not sure that your confrontational attitude is a very polite way of approaching people. This isn't NMA, y'know. Far be it for me to tell you how to behave, tho'.

[Squeek]

The way I see it, Bethesda really ought to be trying to please the hardcore Fallout fans more than anyone else. I mean, why not? It's their game the way a baseball team is their fans' team or a rock & roll band is their fans' band. It's their job to keep their fans happy.

Yeah, there's money involved, and that's important...it's valuable...yeah, yeah, yeah...mass market...SO WHAT? Bethesday has plenty of money already. Fans are fans.

If this game doesn't please Fallout's base of hardcore fans, then those fans ought to moan as loudly and as often as they want.

[GhanBuriGhan]

The way I see it, Bethesda really ought to be trying to please the hardcore Fallout fans more than anyone else. I mean, why not? It's their game the way a baseball team is their fans' team or a rock & roll band is their fans' band. It's their job to keep their fans happy.

Yeah, there's money involved, and that's important...it's valuable...yeah, yeah, yeah...mass market...SO WHAT? Bethesday has plenty of money already. Fans are fans.

If this game doesn't please Fallout's base of hardcore fans, then those fans ought to moan as loudly and as often as they want.
The problem I guess is that they think they do enough of that as it is. They consider themselves fans, and probably they are: second tier fans, like me, who remember the game fondly or became aware of it late based on its great reputation. The recent bethblog Q&A (http://bethblog.com/?p=285) is a nice illustration of this. And I guess they are fans after a fashion, but they have nothing in common with the hardcore fanbase represented by NMA, the Codex, and many people here. To use Dhruin's analogy: It is like the difference between football fans that go to every match, have the full set of fan attire and regalia, and can name and cite the stats of every player from 1905 to the present to people who will always cheer for the team but watch the games on TV (if nothing else interferes), own maybe a single baseball cap in the team colors, and only know the name of the quarterback and the faces of a few other key players. But both consider themselves fans, and probably look askance at each others "culture".

[DArtagnan]

The way I see it, Bethesda really ought to be trying to please the hardcore Fallout fans more than anyone else. I mean, why not? It's their game the way a baseball team is their fans' team or a rock & roll band is their fans' band. It's their job to keep their fans happy.

The more hardcore the fan, the smaller the minority of which he is a part.

There is no business sense in catering to the minority, unless you can do it without displeasing the majority. This is the core of the problem, and the reason Bethesda will not, generally, favor the hardcore over the casual.

Yeah, there's money involved, and that's important...it's valuable...yeah, yeah, yeah...mass market...SO WHAT? Bethesday has plenty of money already. Fans are fans.

I'm sure fans are important to Bethesda, but I'm also confident that money is even more important to them. They're human beings like everyone else, so naturally, if they can both please fans and earn their money, they will do so. But if they feel they need to make a choice between alienating a few hardcore fans and losing a perceived significant amount of money, I'm of the opinion that they'll go for the money. I believe so, because that's my experience with human nature, and especially because of the traditional american values that seem to embrace the nature of capitalism regardless of how it's practiced, more than is the case with many other cultural norms, like those of my own place of birth.

However, people are not necessarily willing to see themselves in a negative light, and we all have an amazing ability to bend truths to make ourselves appear more appealing. So I don't think this is necessarily how they see what they're doing, and I certainly don't think it's the official company line.

If this game doesn't please Fallout's base of hardcore fans, then those fans ought to moan as loudly and as often as they want.

I'm pretty sure that will be the result, but small crowds are often overlooked. Especially in the world of gaming, because it's not yet of a significance the world in general cares about. With wars, hunger, natural disasters (Hollywood might qualify here), and so on, there is little interest in a few people obsessed with a video game franchise.

[Thaurin]

For all sorts of things in life - books, movies, sports, religion, politics, fashion...games... - there are things people enjoy so much, they embrace as key experiences or even part of their identity.

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. I've long abandoned such uselessness, maybe not soon after I saw Fellowship of the Ring. I started to see it as a separate product from the books. Sure you have hopes and dreams for the transition to the silver screen, but it's a different medium and you can't control the outcome. People should stop trying to control every outcome.

I was pissed when Metallica started to abandon their roots and make crap music. Now, who cares? They drove their own creativity in the ground. Wait, now I sound bitter, don't I? :p Point is, I see what you mean, but in the end, it doesn't really matter. You shouldn't pin your identity down on the product of someone else.

The Fallout series has a lineage that a lot of people want to see respected, but that doesn't mean it has to. At least not in the way they perceive it. Bethesda may have a vision of their own, as Fallout fans of their own, that doesn't jibe with those old-school hardcore fans. They should just accept it instead of cursing the devs to Hell.

The way I see it, Bethesda really ought to be trying to please the hardcore Fallout fans more than anyone else. I mean, why not? It's their game the way a baseball team is their fans' team or a rock & roll band is their fans' band. It's their job to keep their fans happy.

That's a very naive way of looking at things. You know how those rock 'n roll bands tell the crowd they are "the best audience they've ever had" in every town they play in? ;) The fans might've put them there, but the time that they're allowed to play by the grace of them has long past if they're raking in the millions. You may be grateful for the rest of your life, but you don't have to let it control your bread-and-butter forever.

Live life for yourself. Bethesda's vision of it will be Bethesda's vision and they will probably be extremely proud of their work once it's finished. If they'd have made it for some other audience, not very much so. In turn, those fans have the freedom to hate the result, but be true to yourself and don't just hate it because it deviates from the original formula.

If this game doesn't please Fallout's base of hardcore fans, then those fans ought to moan as loudly and as often as they want.

Yeah, sure. It won't be very useful to do, though, as it will drain their energy and in the end it may or may not make any difference. It's just not a worthwhile life as a rabid fanboy, in my opinion.

Products come and go, the market is flooded. Don't drown in it.

[Dhruin]

I most definitely don't support some of the rhetoric and actions of some of the hardcore fans, but why should they accept it? Why not fight for their position?

[Morbus]

Really? A very big and influential gaming site? Which one? Last time I checked on alexa, megascore.biz didn't register as a blip (http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?site0=gamebanshee.com&site1=nma-fallout.com&site2=rpgwatch.com&site3=megascore.biz&y=r&z=3&h=300&w=610&range=3m&size=Medium&url=gamebanshee.com) and your own tracker registers 5293 views. Be honest, Morbus.
Guess someone here failed his sarcasm check :lol: Seriously brother, did you think I'd be serious? You really don't know me...

And yeah, you're being pretty offensive, and like the others here I'm having an unusually hard time figuring out what you mean with some posts. I'm also not sure that your confrontational attitude is a very polite way of approaching people. This isn't NMA, y'know. Far be it for me to tell you how to behave, tho'.
Don't worry Brother, I hear you.

[DArtagnan]

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. I've long abandoned such uselessness, maybe not soon after I saw Fellowship of the Ring. I started to see it as a separate product from the books. Sure you have hopes and dreams for the transition to the silver screen, but it's a different medium and you can't control the outcome. People should stop trying to control every outcome.

It's not about the illusion of control, it's about the freedom of speech. When something is not like one feels it should be, then I consider it very natural to speak out against it. Even for something as relatively insignificant as a computer game.

You're speaking about the changes to the LOTR movies as if every single one of them was a necessity for adaption to the big screen. I find that suggestion extremely flawed, because I personally see a ton of changes that did not have to be there and did not - to my mind - enhance the experience of cinema.

For the record, I like the movies very much and consider them works of art.

I'm not sure I see any logical reasoning in not voicing concerns when things are registered to invoke them. That would be counterproductive to the truth, and it could be considered irresponsible.

I was pissed when Metallica started to abandon their roots and make crap music. Now, who cares? They drove their own creativity in the ground. Wait, now I sound bitter, don't I? Point is, I see what you mean, but in the end, it doesn't really matter. You shouldn't pin your identity down on the product of someone else.

Why do you assume it has to do with identity? I like something, I see it lessened, and I speak out about it. Is that the same as using it as my identity? That is a very strange viewpoint if you ask me.

Then again, I never had an idol except perhaps my brother when I was a young boy, and I retain a great measure of respect for my parents, but I certainly didn't do what they did, nor do they necessarily inspire my opinions about everything. Point being, maybe you identified with Metallica and maybe you shouldn't have done that. I suspect it has very little to do with the way most hardcore fans are responding to Fallout 3.

In any case, what you saw happen to Metallica is not entirely dissimilar to what has been happening to the gaming industry as a whole. Judging from how you sound, I find it hard to believe that you're really as totally indifferent about it as you claim. Maybe it's because you don't care about games like you used to care about Metallica, but remember that we don't all idolize the people responsible for products we like.

The Fallout series has a lineage that a lot of people want to see respected, but that doesn't mean it has to. At least not in the way they perceive it. Bethesda may have a vision of their own, as Fallout fans of their own, that doesn't jibe with those old-school hardcore fans. They should just accept it instead of cursing the devs to Hell.

I find it interesting that you're literally saying that they should just accept it. You're not even offering your own perspective as a possible alternative, no you're actually telling people what they should do.

Naturally, you have as little influence in the matter of what people will do as the rest of us, so it doesn't bother me. I just happen to wonder how one can come to feel justified in telling others what they should do, based on his own individual perception of life.

Live life for yourself. Bethesda's vision of it will be Bethesda's vision and they will probably be extremely proud of their work once it's finished. If they'd have made it for some other audience, not very much so. In turn, those fans have the freedom to hate the result, but be true to yourself and don't just hate it because it deviates from the original formula.

Why must it be about hate?

I'm not sure I get that perception, but maybe it's because I don't put all hardcore fans into one basket.

In any case, I doubt you will find many people being more true to themselves than I, but I suppose it's possible.

My way of being true to myself includes speaking my mind about things that I care about. I can't be sure that I will dislike Fallout 3, but I do feel very certain that it will not remain true to the originals to the extent most hardcore fans would prefer. If they dislike the game, then maybe it's not "just" because of the deviation, but the consequences to the gameplay and the overall experience of such deviations.

[GhanBuriGhan]

Like for any topic that incites strong feeling, people tell other people that they shouldn't believe what they believe, like what they like, do what they do. That, too, is human nature. Both sides do it, actually, and both sides of course usually claim that only the other side is doing it. All in all one could be quite happy about how things are going, from an outside perspective: opinions are raised, opinions are heard, people have free choice to support the various sides. Of course there can be only one outcome, so many people have to be left dissapointed - but thats the nature of the game. But even so, the noise the fans have made may have repercussions down the road that may lead to good things. I doubt VD would have started his game, had he not found likeminded souls on the web, and maybe other people, other developers will look at these FO3 discussions and it may influence future ideas and designs. It is always good to speak out.

[Thaurin]

I most definitely don't support some of the rhetoric and actions of some of the hardcore fans, but why should they accept it? Why not fight for their position?

Oh, just some advise from my end. In my experience, it's not healthy nor productive to have your identity bound to such material and worldly things. :) But everybody's free to make their own decision on this. I'm guessing that with time, people will learn for themselves. Things happen the way they happen; trying to control most things in your life just drains your energy.

Buddha out. :)

[DArtagnan]

Oh, just some advise from my end. In my experience, it's not healthy nor productive to have your identity bound to such material and worldly things. But everybody's free to make their own decision on this. I'm guessing that with time, people will learn for themselves. Things happen the way they happen; trying to control most things in your life just drains your energy.

Buddha out.

You don't even register the irony, do you?

Here you are, advising people on a message board about not trying to control things.

By your own measuring stick, you're officially caught whilst trying to control things in your life.

I think you and Buddha need a little talk.

[Thaurin]

You're speaking about the changes to the LOTR movies as if every single one of them was a necessity for adaption to the big screen. I find that suggestion extremely flawed, because I personally see a ton of changes that did not have to be there and did not - to my mind - enhance the experience of cinema.

No-- every change to the LOTR movie probably had a reason, and what that reason was came from the minds of those professionals who produced it, wrote it, directed it, and so on. Your opinion on these changes is rather insignificant in the face of what the end result turned out to be. You are very much entitled to your opinion, of course, but being loud and getting emotionally worked up about it is what I find not being productive nor helpful to one's own mental health.

Why do you assume it has to do with identity? I like something, I see it lessened, and I speak out about it. Is that the same as using it as my identity? That is a very strange viewpoint if you ask me.

I was not specifically speaking about you, but more about the sort of people that gets very trollish very soon about the subject, because he or she is extremely emotionally attached to it. That was what Dhruin's point was, as far as I understand it, and I agree. In such cases, part of one's identity is pinned to the product/piece of art/community/sub-culture and any perceived attack on the subject of one's devotion will be responded to defensively. The problems lie in what is seen as an attack and that responding defensively isn't the same as simply voicing one's opinion.

Point being, maybe you identified with Metallica and maybe you shouldn't have done that. I suspect it has very little to do with the way most hardcore fans are responding to Fallout 3.

Well yeah, I can relate, because I was (and still am) very attached to the whole metal scene to the extent that I thought it saved my life. I know many more people that (still) feel the same way. It gave me identity when none existed. At least, I thought so at the time. Now I see that's not a very healthy way of conducting your life. But I can clearly see how a game such as Fallout and its community might elicit the same kind of emotional response.

In any case, what you saw happen to Metallica is not entirely dissimilar to what has been happening to the gaming industry as a whole. Judging from how you sound, I find it hard to believe that you're really as totally indifferent about it as you claim. Maybe it's because you don't care about games like you used to care about Metallica, but remember that we don't all idolize the people responsible for products we like.

I guess I just care more about what *I* like now than the products that I like or the people that make the products that I like. If that doesn't make sense, I guess I can clarify that I feel more confident in the value of my taste and feel that it will be there for me to enjoy for a long while. Maybe all these powerful emotions are the result of a feeling that the things these people are passionate about are, in fact, dying.

In the music "industry," people will always be able to produce the music they care about. It may not always seem so these days, but I think most bands are started out of love for what they do. They might change over time and lose touch with their roots, even start to despise their own work, but small bands will be able to produce good results without the help of major record labels.

And so we come to the indie scene for RPG games. They generally do not have the same quality of the AAA-titles these days, but they are loved and respected by a niche group of fans. However, do we ever see a small studio capable of releasing a game the size and level of quality of the Fallout series? It'd be one hell of an achievement, for sure... and it's provide those rabid Fallout fans with something else to plough through instead of hoping to find Fallout 3 satiating their thirst for something with that same feel.

I'm rambling and I'm losing my point. I think my point is that you may be disappointed by how something you love turns out, you are allowed to have an opinion about it and even voice it, but in the end you just accept it and move on. The way some people stress themselves out over stuff like this cannot be healthy and I just think that their little fits don't have as much effect as they hope it has.

On the other hand, I've been proven wrong in that sometimes community outlash has influenced the course of development for a product.

I find it interesting that you're literally saying that they should just accept it. You're not even offering your own perspective as a possible alternative, no you're actually telling people what they should do.

Okay, well maybe not telling. As if I have any authority over what someone else may or may not say about it. :) Just voicing my opinion and offering my insight into what I think is best (just like everyone else).

[Thaurin]

You don't even register the irony, do you?

Here you are, advising people on a message board about not trying to control things.

By your own measuring stick, you're officially caught whilst trying to control things in your life.

I never said I was perfect. :) But offering advise still is something different from lashing out. It may be self-reinforcement and a sign that I may have to follow my own advice, but that doesn't invalidate the advice.

I think you and Buddha need a little talk.

That could be fun. Bring in Nietzsche and we're flying. :)

[Brother None]

Live life for yourself. Bethesda's vision of it will be Bethesda's vision and they will probably be extremely proud of their work once it's finished. If they'd have made it for some other audience, not very much so. In turn, those fans have the freedom to hate the result, but be true to yourself and don't just hate it because it deviates from the original formula.

Wait, how would hating it because it deviates from the original formula not be being true to myself?

As for "wasting energy" on this. Heh. People waste energy on all sorts of fruitless endeavors on the internet. Somehow I don't feel I'm worst of on this side of the bargain than if I'm a dude on youtube discussing if Lazy Dork is better than lonelygirl, or whatever.

There's nothing wrong with the quixotic nature of this endeavor. It'd be a boring world if people only protested when they were ensured of success, no? Heck, sometimes protesting is good just for the sake of it, and who knows what this'll produce?