Looking for RPGs with cooperative LAN play

[Zaleukos]

I'm looking for games with cooperative mode to play with my gf, preferably with a storyline that gives a sense of progress. We are currently limited by the graphics card in our older PC (a Geforce 4200 sth that was fast for its time but only has shader model 1.3), but that box will be replaced the coming spring so you can feel free to suggest titles for us to look forward to...

We had great fun playing Baldurs Gate and Icewind Dale, but we know those games too well to start over again. Neverwinter Nights 1 didnt really take off for us (even though we played the expansions the engine simply doesnt do it for us), Neverwinter Nights 2 doesnt run on the old machine and has so far offered rather lackluster SP. Arcanum has rather annoying limitations in MP (no fast travel and no turn based combat). Diablo and most clones are too repetitive and has too simple combat.

Any suggestions, even archaic ones, are welcome:)

EDIT: We've also finished BG2 and IWD2 quite a few times:)

EDIT2: We are not interested in MMO type play. Cooperative play should have something akin to shared experience and quests. PvP is not interesting either due to both of us being sore losers:p

[Ubereil]

Baldur's Gate 2 and Neverwinter Nights 2? :D

Übereil

[Zaleukos]

NWN2:s singleplayer made us a bit sceptical to say the least. We'll probably buy an extra copy next spring and give it a whirl, but I am not all that optimistic.

BG2 on the other hand is excellent, but we've played all the infinity engine games except Planescape Torment to death:) I think the Icewind Dales are better for multiplayer though. The pace and tactical focus make it involving for both players, while the heavier dialogue in the BGs make the "passive" player feel a bit left out.

[rune_74]

hmmm I'm actually thinking on this now....you may be stuck with diablo clones...hey what about depths of peril??

NWN2 single player actually is quite decent.

[Zaleukos]

Hmm, that could be interesting if it has cooperative play, but according to the interviews I could find it will be single player only.

[rune_74]

ok my bad....hmmm sacred can be fun....I think beyond divinity is also two player but its just an "ok" game.

[Ubereil]

I meant IWD btw... And considering that you'd played the first games (of both BG and IWD) I was pretty certain you'd checked out the sequels. Which is what the whole point of my post was... And I was going to suggest Ps:T (as a serious suggestion ;)) but I thought the great thing about it was the story/characterinteraction, and I figured that doesn't play out well in multiplayer.

Beyond Divinity is singleplayer only IIRC.

Übereil

[magerette]

What about Dungeon Seige 2? It's got its moments, but it does need a pretty fast video card, and it's definitely in the action rpg category--can't lay my hands on the manual, but I'm pretty sure it has LAN.

Going through my collection, I was amazed at how few rpgs had co-op. (Wizardry, M&M, ToEE, etc) Have you thought about some of the turn based strategy games, like the Disciples series or Heros of Might and Magic? They're quite fun to play that way and they can be played easily on older systems.

[Gallifrey]

My significant other and I played a lot of Disciples and Age Of Wonders: Shadow Magic on hotseat, and both do have the full range of MP capability. Not really RPGs exactly, but RPG-ish in a fantasy setting. Much better than going the Diablo clone route at any rate.


EDIT2: We are not interested in MMO type play. Cooperative play should have something akin to shared experience and quests. PvP is not interesting either due to both of us being sore losers:p

MMOs do have shared quest and experience actually. As long you both have the quests, and if you start in the same area you'll get the same quests, and can be completed by both of you with full reward and XP (at least that's how it works in WoW). And in WoW you can completely avoid all PVP combat, as long as you don't play on a PVP server, and never enter a battleground or arena.

[Corwin]

NWN1 has several thousand mods, many of which are brilliant for co-op LAN play!! Somewhere here (probably in the NWN forums ) is a list of some of the best!!

[Melvil]

Titan quest is quite a fun game, and would be solid in multiplayer. Great skill system, cool setting, and if you pay attention, good mythological lore. It's hack and slash, but if you're looking for a good lan game, this one would be pretty tight.

[chamr]

Dungeon Lords: Collector's Edition. Seriously. Very fun co-op MP. My gaming group always has a blast when we play.

[Zaleukos]

Thanks for the suggestions:) I dont really expect to find that many titles, since RPGs by themselves are getting rare, and cooperative mode tends to a low priority multiplayer option (as an example from my another genre Medieval 2: Total war doesnt allow cooperative play against the AI).

Dungeon Siege II doesnt look that bad going by the Dungeon Siege heaven website, and the specs dont seem all that daunting. For what its worth we buy a new desktop PC every two years and keep two around. Currently our older machine is a three year old Athlon XP2400+ with 1GB of RAM and a Geforce 4200 graphics card, which seems to meet the specs. I found that me never skimping on RAM makes my PCs last fairly long and that the GPU tends to become the show stopper as new technologies are introduced (the most common hurdle in the last 15 months has been "Shader model 2.0 required" rather than the speed of the GPU per se).


Going through my collection, I was amazed at how few rpgs had co-op. (Wizardry, M&M, ToEE, etc) Have you thought about some of the turn based strategy games, like the Disciples series or Heros of Might and Magic? They're quite fun to play that way and they can be played easily on older systems.

I love SP TBS but our experience of playing such games together has been rather bad. Too much time is spent on low-intensity parts of the game, or even worse, on waiting for the other player to carry out city administration and the like. Our attempt with Master of Orion II was for instance a bore... OTOH we've had a blast playing the Seven Kingdoms games, Rome: Total War, or Capitalism II together, so slow paced RTS works:)

MMOs do have shared quest and experience actually. As long you both have the quests, and if you start in the same area you'll get the same quests, and can be completed by both of you with full reward and XP (at least that's how it works in WoW). And in WoW you can completely avoid all PVP combat, as long as you don't play on a PVP server, and never enter a battleground or arena.

I was thinking of stupidity such as both players having to accept the same quest separately, and the quest still being around for other players once completed by someone. That is at least how it works in my only installed MMO, Minions of Mirth.:) Most MMOs are at any rate made moot by the fact that we dont want to, and cant, be connected to the internet during all gaming sessions. Some of the sessions namely take place in a forest retreat with rather crappy internet access... :)

Corwin: NWN is not really our first option (we simply dont like the game engine), but we might go down that route if we dont find anything else before the christmas holidays:)

[Gallifrey]

I love SP TBS but our experience of playing such games together has been rather bad. Too much time is spent on low-intensity parts of the game, or even worse, on waiting for the other player to carry out city administration and the like. Our attempt with Master of Orion II was for instance a bore... OTOH we've had a blast playing the Seven Kingdoms games, Rome: Total War, or Capitalism II together, so slow paced RTS works:)

Anno 1701 has multiplayer mode. It's a real-time slow-paced city builder/trade game. Each player basically has to set up a civilization, make it grow and in turn meet the expanding needs of your citizens. It's a really great game, and via MP you can play co-operatively or in competition.


I was thinking of stupidity such as both players having to accept the same quest separately, and the quest still being around for other players once completed by someone. That is at least how it works in my only installed MMO, Minions of Mirth.:) Most MMOs are at any rate made moot by the fact that we dont want to, and cant, be connected to the internet during all gaming sessions. Some of the sessions namely take place in a forest retreat with rather crappy internet access... :)

Ah, the lack of internet access would be a problem ;)

[Zaleukos]

Anno 1701 has multiplayer mode. It's a real-time slow-paced city builder/trade game. Each player basically has to set up a civilization, make it grow and in turn meet the expanding needs of your citizens. It's a really great game, and via MP you can play co-operatively or in competition.

That's a pleasant surprise:) We enjoyed 1604 in SP, but it tends to crash on the Athlon, and after seeing that 1503 lacked MP we sort of gave up on the series. EDIT: Is the combat any better than in 1604? That was the main let-down of the first game...

[Gallifrey]

The combat in 1701 is still weak, but I don't have much of a frame of reference for comparison as in games like these I rarely enter combat situations.

1701 improves pretty much everything though, so combat is probably at least a *bit* better than in 1602 and 1503.

[magerette]

Dungeon Siege II doesnt look that bad going by the Dungeon Siege heaven website, and the specs dont seem all that daunting. For what its worth we buy a new desktop PC every two years and keep two around. Currently our older machine is a three year old Athlon XP2400+ with 1GB of RAM and a Geforce 4200 graphics card, which seems to meet the specs. I found that me never skimping on RAM makes my PCs last fairly long and that the GPU tends to become the show stopper as new technologies are introduced (the most common hurdle in the last 15 months has been "Shader model 2.0 required" rather than the speed of the GPU per se).

Sounds like you could play it. My old machine had some problems with lag, but it had way lower ram and a very generic radeon card. I like DS2 a lot better than the original, but it is still mostly action and fairly linear. Nice settings and skills and so forth, though. I could see one person going the magic route, and another melee. or one doing nature magic and one combat magic. You can avoid taking any of the NPC's along(they share experience) and use some of the various pets,( who don't).

From the little I played of the 1701 demo, I think it would be fun co-op. Combat seems to always be the weak point in those games.

[Gallifrey]

I think 1701 would be great fun co-op style. Because the game essentially demands that you trade for goods it'd be much more fun and rewarding to trade with a real person rather than the AI. It'd be easier to deal with difficult AI rivals as well.

[zakhal]

System shock 2. Allthough you can play it through net too if you set up a VPN.

[Zaleukos]

Sounds like you could play it. My old machine had some problems with lag, but it had way lower ram and a very generic radeon card. I like DS2 a lot better than the original, but it is still mostly action and fairly linear. Nice settings and skills and so forth, though. I could see one person going the magic route, and another melee. or one doing nature magic and one combat magic. You can avoid taking any of the NPC's along(they share experience) and use some of the various pets,( who don't).

Thats precisely the kind of stuff we are after in RPGs, making complementary characters and figuring out good tactics while sticking to some sort of overall "theme" for our dynamic duo:) Otherwise I am the big RPG player and my gf is more of a strategist who appreciates the occasional character and loves Minsc.

On a side note you should never skimp on RAM, its an inexpensive component, wont become obsolete as fast as a GPU as it grows in size faster than in speed, and it will help general windoze performance;) My rule of thumb when building a PC is to get four times the amount of RAM that Dell put in their bottom line crap.

[chamr]

I'll say it again, then I'll leave you alone. :) Dungeon Lords. Much more engaging as a play experience with friends than Dungeon Siege. Teamwork and joint tactics play a bigger role and the combat requires you be much more engaged than DS's "set and forget" method. DS is a much more polished game, but polish isn't the same as fun, and DL is polished enough to not get in the way of the fun. DL can really feel like your team is fighting for their lives at times. DS feels like an arcade game.

[Acleacius]

I was wondering if DL CE, had actually improved the networking and questing issues, good to know, thanks chamr. :)

Everyone had gotten so frustrated by that point and refused to buy the game again, I could never find anyone to ask.

[Zaleukos]

I'm downloading the Dungeon Lords demo, and will get the DS2 demo during the weekend. If they prove ok we'll likely get both, it's not like there are that many games for us to play together...

[magerette]

@chamr: Is Dungeon Lords the Bradley game or am I thinking of something else? Wasn't the main criticism that it was buggy, repetitive and pushed out the door with whole areas unfinished? Did they correct this stuff in the CE? I hate to think I've missed a good rpg as scarce as they are because early reviews were inaccurate.

Dungeon Seige II is far better than DS1, but it is, as charmr said, arcade like in the clicking department, and definitely rpg lite. I had fun with it, though and it does have a discernible plot.

[txa1265]

@chamr: Is Dungeon Lords the Bradley game or am I thinking of something else? Wasn't the main criticism that it was buggy, repetitive and pushed out the door with whole areas unfinished? Did they correct this stuff in the CE? I hate to think I've missed a good rpg as scarce as they are because early reviews were inaccurate.

The CE is vastly improved, but I would still hesitate to call it a 'good RPG'. Here is my old review of the CD (http://www.gamerdad.com/detail.cfm?itemID=3139) (yes, I separately reviewed both versions). However, the co-op capability is something I basically never got much of a look at - in the original game it was so laggy to be unusable over the 'net. Supposedly over a LAN it is much better - I think that is what chamr refers to ... or perhaps the net code in the CE was improved.

[magerette]

The CE is vastly improved, but I would still hesitate to call it a 'good RPG'. Here is my old review of the CD (http://www.gamerdad.com/detail.cfm?itemID=3139) (yes, I separately reviewed both versions). However, the co-op capability is something I basically never got much of a look at - in the original game it was so laggy to be unusable over the 'net. Supposedly over a LAN it is much better - I think that is what chamr refers to ... or perhaps the net code in the CE was improved.

Thanks, Mike. It's nice to know my memory has a few functioning cells left. Your review tells me that as fun as it may be in LAN play, this would keep me away from single-player:

But the worst offender is the constant enemy spawning and unbalanced reward system. While the combat is fun, getting swarmed by respawning mobs every 60 ﾖ 90 seconds over the course of a 60 hour game is not, especially when the enemy intelligence largely consists of "CHARGE!"...Further, there are enemies worth more advance points by themselves than every quest in the game combined!

Of course, DS2 isn't exempt from the respawning either, but the rewards are usually abundant and at least it has a great deal of quest experience as well, and though they all involve a lot of combat some of them are pretty involved.

You have to remember, though, that I'm looking at things from the single-player perspective, since I don't usually get to hook up with anyone for LAN. I'm sure chamr knows what he's talking about. :)

Zaleukos, let us know how both the demos work out for you.

[skavenhorde]

I'll say it again, then I'll leave you alone. :) Dungeon Lords. Much more engaging as a play experience with friends than Dungeon Siege. Teamwork and joint tactics play a bigger role and the combat requires you be much more engaged than DS's "set and forget" method. DS is a much more polished game, but polish isn't the same as fun, and DL is polished enough to not get in the way of the fun. DL can really feel like your team is fighting for their lives at times. DS feels like an arcade game.


I agree.

DL is one of the biggest disappointments but I had to admit the CE is great fun to play with a friend. I live in Taiwan and my friend is in Arizona and we never had any problems. I wish they released this version first and then patched it up because I think the reviews would of been a bit different. Even with that said it could of used a bit more polishing up and implementing ALL the spells that use ingredients. That would be my biggest gripe, that it still wasn't quite finished but overall still a ton of fun to play with a friend. Ten times better than the usual hack and slash games out there.

[Acleacius]

Yes, even though we had quest break and many moments of frustration, there is nothing like playing Coop with a friend. :)

Hell, I can't even remember that last fully 3D Coop RPG, wait it would have to be Redemption, but you couldn't play the full campaign in Redemption, so that doesn't really count.

Damn I must be missing something or is DL the ONLY fully 3d Coop, RPG?
Maybe I need some caffeine to think this over. :p

[chamr]

A rare chance to promote DL? Yay! :) I believe DL CE is a great hack and slash SP experience as well. As an indicator, it's one of the few games I've actually finished in the last couple of years. And, I've even replayed it a bit, since I find the character development system pretty engaging.

Thanks, Mike. It's nice to know my memory has a few functioning cells left. Your review tells me that as fun as it may be in LAN play, this would keep me away from single-player:

I'll have to differ from Mike here a bit. First off, there is a spawn rate setting in the Options. However, only the lowest setting is useful as the other two, as Mike points out, spawn way too often. On Low, though, I find the spawning fine, with one exception where I'd agree with Mike: when you're trying to solve a puzzle in a dungeon. It is a bit annoying to have to fight off a clump of vermin every couple of minutes while you're trying to think through a lever pattern or time a jump sequence. It would have been much better had DW turned off re-spawning in Dungeons all together. Having said that, you don't find yourself in this situation a ton.

I also disagree on the AI. I've found it to be quite good, and some of the best in this kind of game out there. I've had slimes I was sniping from above retreat out of range, I've had goblins path-find around a fairly complex maze to get me rather than just stand dumbly on the other side of an obstacle, and rats swarm me with a mob intelligence that's kind of scary, to be honest. Your oponents also often use their skills and spells quite well, making for some pretty good challenges.

The melee fighting, due to it's highly interactive nature, is very demanding. If you just charge in clicking madly, you'll often find yourself in trouble fast (if you're playing on Hard difficutly, that is). This can make the spawning seem more taxing, at times, but that's what taking a break's for. :) The satisfaction I get from using straffing, well timed combos, blocking, backflips and side rolls to hack your way through a tough gang of baddies is unlike any other game I've played.

Magerette, from what I can tell, you like action-RPG's. I find it hard to believe you wouldn't like DL. It's a great action-RPG, IMO.

On the topic of MP, I'm not sure all the quest bugs have been worked out in the CE, but there's always a work around, from what I've read on the various boards. The system of save games and how SP and MP files work allows for getting around some of the issues, so keep your saves. And if all else fails, a dude over on the Gamebanshee boards has developed a rather straight forward hex editor for your save games that should get you where you need to go.

Not sure if the net code was fixed in the CE, as my group has only ever played the CE, but can tell you that over the internet, we found that the game bogs down with more than 3 players. May be just us, but I suspect not as we're all pretty adept at tweaking our setups to get MP games going. However, on true LAN (not Hamachi), I'd suspect you could get a larger game going.

[magerette]

Hmmm, chamr...very interesting. Yes, I am an action rpg junkie. Clickfesting and hacking and slashing to me carry no negative connotations whatsoever. ;) I used to be ashamed that I spent two and a half years playing Diablo2 and have three separate manilla envelopes packed with printouts of rune FAQ sheets, set items and character builds, but I have learned to embrace these faults...:) I will now be looking for Dungeon Lords CE in the bargain bins of the internet.

chamr, you remind me of this fellow here-the pusherman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2oltUspwAY)--:p

[rune_74]

I bought dungeon lords CE in one of those jewel cases...for a whoping 7.50 not bad eh?

[chamr]

I used to be ashamed that I spent two and a half years playing Diablo2 and have three separate manilla envelopes packed with printouts of rune FAQ sheets, set items and character builds, but I have learned to embrace these faults...:)

:lol: You and I have more in common than just OK. ;)

chamr, you remind me of this fellow here-the pusherman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2oltUspwAY)--:p

True. 'cept I'm twice as funky-fresh!! :)

[Zaleukos]

Loaded both up this morning, and here are my first impressions:

Dungeon Siege 2: Diablo with NWN graphics. Very cartoonish feeling, more so than NWN. The interface is however intuitive.

Dungeon Lords: Looks more interesting, but the interface is not intuitive worth a damn, and unlike DS2 the demo isnt exactly a tutorial. Is there any kind of map or compass function in the game? Overall it feels like I lack an overview of my surroundings, enemies pop out of the blue a bit too often, and in an irrational way.

I'll experiment some more before giving a final verdict, but from what I've seen I think that remaining NWN 1 modules would be more interesting to us than DS2.

[stealth]

System shock 2. Allthough you can play it through net too if you set up a VPN.

I'll second that. If you don't mind it being a FPS but at at much slower pace. All the hype that was Bioshock is little more than SS2 with updated graphics IMHO.

[txa1265]

Dungeon Lords: Looks more interesting, but the interface is not intuitive worth a damn, and unlike DS2 the demo isnt exactly a tutorial. Is there any kind of map or compass function in the game? Overall it feels like I lack an overview of my surroundings, enemies pop out of the blue a bit too often, and in an irrational way.
There is a mini-map on-screen in newer versions - but thanks goodness no FPS-style 'quest compass' (ala Oblivion).

[Zaleukos]

Ok, the demo is probably based on an early version of the engine. I dont lament the lack of map and compass per se, provided the geography is distinctive enough to let you get a sense of direction, and the starting area is definitely a bit lacking in viewing distance and landmarks:)

[Zaleukos]

EDIT2: Moved questions to the dungeon lords thread

[magerette]

I'll experiment some more before giving a final verdict, but from what I've seen I think that remaining NWN 1 modules would be more interesting to us than DS2.

Yeah, I was afraid it might be too Diablo-like for you. It certainly isn't able to keep up with games like NWN or even IWD in dialogue and NPC's. But it's nice to find out from a free demo and not after spending fifty bucks on a full game. :)

[Cm]

Almost all of the Hall of Fame NWN 1 mods are worth a look. Our group started with our NWN1 game characters and played them up to level 40 using mods that met our levels. And your system should do fine with it.

[Zaleukos]

Cm: Neverwinter Nights runs just fine on our machines, we're just a bit tired of it. The good thing is that we dont need to dish out any extra money to play NWN modules:)

Yeah, I was afraid it might be too Diablo-like for you. It certainly isn't able to keep up with games like NWN or even IWD in dialogue and NPC's. But it's nice to find out from a free demo and not after spending fifty bucks on a full game. :)

Agreed. I just wish more games had playable demos, it's incredibly useful both to determine gameplay value and how well the software runs on one's hardware (both ran flawlessly on the old hog):)

[Acleacius]

Actually that demo was pretty well panned by everyone, so consider it a Beta demo,
additionally in that early demo of DL, as with the missing map, it also has the bad respawning problems, which is probably what your seeing in the "enemies pop out of the blue a bit too often, and in an irrational way. ".

In regards to SS2, if you don't mind getting involved with the console, since they didn't add any extra Cyber Modules, you will need to add some so you can each level, though I maybe remembering wrong. :)
It quite fun and you can find all the great addon textures that make the game look and play better, here.
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/index.php

[Zaleukos]

Yeah, the value of the demo is of course proportional to how representative it is of the game. But the DS2 and DL demos were enough to give me a ballpark idea of the type of gameplay and hardware requirements, which together with the knowledge of this site is enough for me to make up my mind. I'll just see what the demo's MP is like before I place an order (lag and bugs aside there are many ways of structuring an MP game that make or break the mode for us):)

[Ubbax]

I seldom if ever indulge in Rpg Lan play. I like to cogitate on character creation, dialogue options, equipment selection, as well as explore the world fully and such playstyle simply doesn't support playing with others well.

I can understand that a Lan game with a significant other could be fun though; as well as keep the peace ;)

So here are 3 Rpgs which suprisingly have not been mentioned in this thread:

1) Evil-Islands (http://www.evil-islands.com/eng/)
There'a a demo for the game.
Here's what I would call a quick, fair to-the-point Evil Island Review (http://www.allrpg.com/games/evilislands/index.php3?page=review&num=1)
Little known truely great Rpg. Probably more difficult than what most are use to.


2) Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor (http://poolofradiance.com/)
Likely to be a lot of disagreement over this one. I stuck with it and liked it.
Once the city surface area is reached the pace picks up.

I would strongly suggest to make sure the version you get is v1.4
For those who would prefer to speed up combat download the
PoR Speed Control Utility 1.4 (Works with the final game patch) by Arkangyl. (http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/PoR2/index_editors.php)
There is also a link on the Official PoR forum to the Speed Control.

Probably little known is that every time a new multiplayer game is created a new Dungeon Area is randomly created. So while above ground areas remain the same, Caverns, Tunnel areas, creatures fought, and treasure gained will vary greatly. GameBanshee Walkthrough (http://www.gamebanshee.com/poolofradianceromd/walkthrough.php) and GameBanshee RPG Forum listings (http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/)

There is also Chris Fowler's very excellent NWN module recreation of the original Pool of Radiance. Interview with Chris Fowler (http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Interviews.Detail&id=43)


3) Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader => (no link sadly Black Isle Studios is no more)
Interplay Walkthrough & Quick Keys (http://www.interplay.com/support/membership/hints.asp)
GameBanshee Walkthrough (http://www.gamebanshee.com/lionheart/walkthrough.php)
Another Rpg, which while it does have certain issues towards the end, was under rated in my opion and enjoyable.

This offers true Coop multiplayer and I've been told by those who enjoy such things that it's quite good. In fact having two player controllable characters helps to alleviate the shortcomings faced playing it as a Solo experience with certain classes; mostly seen when nearing the end.


So there you have it my three Rpg suggestions for Lan play. Hopefully others will offer up more direct multiplayer experience with these. If not perhaps you can be the first and relay your thoughts and experiences.

Ubbax
"We don't stop playing because we grow old...
We grow old because we stop playing."
-George Bernard Shaw

[Zaleukos]

I can fully understand that point of view, and it somewhat resonate with our experience too. I find that lighter RPGs lend themselves better to coop, Icewind Dale being a case in point.

And, she is not a RPG player, and she doesnt like me sitting up all night with Gothic! At the same time neither of us appreciate run of the mill RTS or FPS games, and turn based strategy games tend to just become too slow in MP.

[magerette]

I can speak for Evil Islands as being worth a play. It's not too slow moving and has a great crafting system. I don't know how easy it would be to actually find a copy of it these days, or even Lionheart--which was tremendous fun for at least the first half, though almost impossibly hard and monotonous for the single player in the second--I could see where playing co-op might make it actually a better game.
POR:RoMD is still available( and cheap) at gogamer (http://www.gogamer.com/Pool-of-Radiance--Ruins-of-Myth-Drannor-PC-RPG_stcVVproductId4760713VVcatId444792VVviewprod.h tm). This is one I bought recently but haven't got around to playing. The demo was fun, though, I thought.

[chamr]

I'll just see what the demo's MP is like before I place an order (lag and bugs aside there are many ways of structuring an MP game that make or break the mode for us):)

Let us know which you 2 end up with. I, for obvious reasons :), am curious...

[Zaleukos]

There's nothing much to report yet...

We didnt have the time to test MP yesterday as my gf decided that it was more important to wrap up her thesis work:p Anyway I found demos for the new suggestions and will check them out tonight (the PoR demo doesnt suffer from any uninstall bugs, does it?).

[Zaleukos]

One title I own but didnt mention before is Demise - Rise of the Kutan which is a very basic dungeon grinder/crawler with MP capacity. I enjoyed it for what it was, but my gf doesnt like it. The game is available at Decklins domain (http://www.decklinsdomain.com) after fans bought the rights from the rather amateurish/inept developer David Allen. There should a fully featured demo with the first five dungeon floors floating around the net somewhere. It's the only game I've preordered directly from the developer and at nearly 60 clintonian dollars including shipping also the most expensive one, but I got many hours of it and feel no regrets.

[Zaleukos]

I got a call from a gf who's train is delayed, so I will probably not get to test Dungeon Lords multiplayer tonight either. Technical aspects aside I think the main worry is experience and loot distribution in MP. For coop in games that rely on "builds" to work you need those two to be available in sufficient amount and distributed relatively evenly... I'm tempted to get this game anyway, as it can be found for 16 euros and SP is bearable.

Anyway I loaded up all three of todays downloaded demos and gave them 15 minutes each. The sessions havent really given me enough meat to discard either option.

Lionheart very old school feeling that reminds me of BG and Arcanum (not very surprising). It does however suffer from the shortcomings of a 2D isometric perspective, with sluggish movement on maps with dead angles. It also seems to suffer from Arcanums shortcomings when it comes to mana and health regeneration. The alternate history setting is cool. Could still be something for MP if my gf approves of the engine.

Pool of Radiance 2 has the same map movement issue as Lionheart, only more so. Unless that speed patch improves walking speed as well I'm very skeptical about this one. The game feels sluggish and it takes forever to cover a few feet on a cleared map, something I think I listed in the "most retarded things in games" threat. The interface is also rather counter-intuitive so far.
Otherwise we like and understand the 3rd edition rules (which easily is our favourite AD&D ruleset). Is it correct to assume that MP basically consists of splitting the party as per the infinity engine games?
Evil islands My first thought was that this is a very cute and colourful game that reminds me of polygon graphic Amiga classics such as Virus or five to ten year old final fantasies. My gf might like this one:p Character building options seem a bit limited though, and I really dont like the default camera behaviour.

[magerette]

I think the slow,monotonous turn-based combat was the big flaw people complained of with PoR:RoMD--as I said, I haven't gotten around to playing it,and I do remember being fairly frustrated with the interface in the demo til i got a few hints online and got used to it. (btw, no uninstall probs with the demo,or with the properly patched version, which is now the one sold at retail I believe)

And Lionheart is the most schizoid game I've ever played--loved the first half--hated the second...the # of health potions alone that I had to hoard (upwards of 200) from the first half due to lack of availability and insane enemy imbalance in the 2nd, rate it a spot in "the most retarded things" thread for me.

The bad thing is, unfortunately, that almost every RPG that you can think of has something to overcome--so it just depends on what you and your gf want to put up with in exchange for the good times. Hope you find something you can both enjoy. :)

[Acleacius]

After seeing the 1.6 patch news for Two Worlds, thought it might make a good addition to this list, though I haven't played it yet. :)

[Zaleukos]

I have two worlds, but it requires shaders that the old graphics card doesnt have. And while I havent looked at MP I've heard it didnt offer the kind of coop LAN of a real campaign that I'm after, at least not in 1.5.

We did get to try Dungeon Lords for about an hour. It was a very mixed experience. The MP system is clearly added as an afterthought.

-There doesnt seem to be any way to trade items other than dropping them onto the ground (we would like to play a fighter and a mage, but what would happen if the fighter accidentally pick up spell related stuffs?).

-XP from kills isnt shared. While this makes sense and doesnt have to be a problem in itself it also means that my fighter earns XP way faster than her mage in the beginning, and from what I've read (had to peek at the walkthrough to see how much that is left before getting to a "civilised" area where we can outfit her with spells) there will be a lonely creature that is worth tens of thousands of XP before my gf becomes dangerous. We havent done any quests yet, but if the quest XP isnt shared that is an example of a mechanism that breaks MP as far as we are concerned. EDIT: according to the official forum XP is shared if both players hit an enemy at least once, which is fair enough...

- Loot, chest, XP, and monster distribution seems identical to SP. That means that the characters will have about half the XP as in SP at the same point in the game. If my impression that character power grows faster at higher levels is correct this mean that we will be considerably weaker than an individual SP character at the same point in the game. And when it comes to the chests that I already hate opening it means that these little things will outpace us in difficulty pretty soon. To top it off we'll have half the amount of gold per char compared to SP, which might be a problem if money is tight in the game. Of course we could camp and grind through respawns to catch up in experience, but that makes for rather dull gameplay.

-Buffs seem to affect the caster only. This is bad and a pretty basic thing to get right for MP.

So in all it seems like MP just means that they put an extra non-hostile into SP, with no thought about interaction and synergy between the players.

I'll be looking for remedies for the issues, particularly XP and loot sharing. It's not fun to play coop if a player cant pull his weight.

EDIT: This is all in the demo, I'd be happy to know if these issues were fixed in the CE.

[chamr]

Hi Zal. A couple of quick notes:

- a couple of skill points in inspect traps and pick locks does wonders for the early chests. Makes the mini-game much more manageable. It doesn't take more than a few to get at all the chests in the opening area.

- MP was definitely worked on in subsequent patches and the CE, but don't expect huge changes.

- There are party buffs available in the Celestial line of spells I believe. They're the ones that have "Boon" in their title. Never tried them myself, but I think most, if not all, have been reported to work. Again, however, I don't think they're available in the demo, as they got added in later versions, and you don't get them right away. I think you start to pick them up a few hours into the game.

- It's true there's no trade feature. Just drop and pickup. OLDE SKOOL!! ;)

- If you level up to 3 before hitting the sewers and work together as a team, you should find the going pretty manageable. There's also the difficulty setting to use if things are too tough. And, you can crank the Encounters setting up to grind some XP quickly, and then tone it down again when you're ready to explore.

- As with almost all cRPG's, mages start out weak, but begin to dominate later in the game. In the CE, they added a goblin mage to one of the opening area huts that has a nice little staff that, with a point in Magic Weapons, does some serious damage in the hands of a mage.

[Acleacius]

Yes, remember your playing a close to a beta with the Demo, many things have been patched, unless you bought the game and I missed that post.
The demo was released even before the game was released, iirc, which is why I mentioned beta a couple of times.

Also there Save Editor link, I gave you can work in MP, but I could never get him to specifically make it work with, it happens to find the Main Player, ie one whom started the server, so you can still get it to work certainly with a Hex Editor.
Also adds XP, iirc.

I could have sworn there was a way to trade though it's been 1 or 2 years since I have played.

You can change the Spawning rate or just play the game on Easy difficulty as well, if it's too difficult, go for the fun factor first then the challenge, later. :)

[Zaleukos]

Ok, that sounds manageable. As Magerette says all games have flaws and we really dont have that much to choose from. Going through the rather dead official site I also get the impression that you only need one copy for LAN play, and that the devs seem to condone LAN parties with that kind of setup. So I've placed an order:)

I downloaded a character editor last night, but it gave some pointer warning when opening MP saves, probably due to an unexpected filesize caused by having multiple characters in the save file. I'm thinking about simply giving us a boost to the thievery skills and pretend that part isnt in the game at all. I guess that this is doable by exporting SP characters.

And before I attract any ethical criticism I'd like to state that I in no way feel bad about cheating my way around game features that I find ill conceived or tedious:p We at most have an hour or two to spend on a game a day, so that better be quality time...

Btw, given the way you gain classes during the game it might be feasible for my gf to start out as something beefier than a mage, preferrably something whose bonuses resonate well with that of the mage class. Maybe adept could work?

[chamr]

Btw, given the way you gain classes during the game it might be feasible for my gf to start out as something beefier than a mage, preferrably something whose bonuses resonate well with that of the mage class. Maybe adept could work?

Definitely could work. One of the best aspects of DL, imo, is the mutli-class system. Makes for fun character development and combination of skills/spells/abilities. Have fun! :)

[Acleacius]

Of course using codes to help balance gameplay for your personal preferences is what they are there for, so "Have fun, storming the castle!" :)

In case you didn't see it, GB has very nice Walkthroughs, Class and Bouns descriptions.
http://www.gamebanshee.com/dungeonlords/

[Zaleukos]

I've looked through the gamebanshee sites, and we played some after receiving our copy yesterday. It's fun, but I can understand the frustration of those who bought the game at full price. "Rough around the edges" is a severe understatement of the games' state:p I'll put my impressions in the DL thread as it seems silly to have two threads on the game...

[Ubbax]

posted by Zaleukos
One title I own but didnt mention before is Demise - Rise of the Kutan which is a very basic dungeon grinder/crawler with MP capacity. I enjoyed it for what it was, but my gf doesnt like it. The game is available at Decklins domain after fans bought the rights from the rather amateurish/inept developer David Allen. There should a fully featured demo with the first five dungeon floors floating around the net somewhere. It's the only game I've preordered directly from the developer and at nearly 60 clintonian dollars including shipping also the most expensive one, but I got many hours of it and feel no regrets.

Lets not start comments on David; those threads can tend to become rabid..
David is talented and actually a pretty nice guy. Lets not forget he made Mordor and Mordor II before the original version of Demise. The last version of Mordor II had multiplayer as well.

I also ordered Demise on its release and still enjoy an occasional game. Somewhere around here in the depths of the dungeon I have the Interplay version "Infinite Worlds" which was never released retail. If I recall this is the version the demo is based on.

posted by Magerette
And Lionheart is the most schizoid game I've ever played--loved the first half--hated the second...the # of health potions alone that I had to hoard (upwards of 200) from the first half due to lack of availability and insane enemy imbalance in the 2nd, rate it a spot in "the most retarded things" thread for me.

<sigh> this is not how I wanted to spend the start of my Saturday; cleaning coffee of my monitor & Keyboard :lol:


posted by Zaleukos
Evil islands My first thought was that this is a very cute and colourful game that reminds me of polygon graphic Amiga classics such as Virus or five to ten year old final fantaZasies. My gf might like this one Character building options seem a bit limitedted by though, and I really dont like the default camera behaviour.

Yes I remember the default camera slightly annoying me as well. I'm not sure how much configurability the Demo offered concerning the Camera but the Retail release had quite a bit. I know there were cursor sensitivity options and distance settings to control how far from the edge of the screen the cursor was before it implemented a change of direction.

I have a tendency to set my cursor velocity very high. The result is that a mouse movement of less than a 1/2 inch sends the cursor from the center of my 22" screen to the edge. (people trying to use my PCs complain it's far to twitchy)

I mostly made use of the Keyboard controls to control the camera;
Arrow keys, page up/down or mouse wheel to zoom, and preset camera positions
"Ctrl" + "F9"-"F12" to set and then "F9"- "F12" to recall.

I think the "point of view" for the camera could be controlled by pressing the Right mouse button and dragging.

Nicely written precis of the multiplayer aspects for the various games. Thanks for sharing them.

Ubbax
"A man must be both stupid and uncharitable who believes there is no virtue or truth but on his own side."--Joseph Addison

[Zaleukos]

Didnt mean to bash David, it's just that he is more of an artist than an engineer. I wouldnt want to work in a project with him, but having a beer or a cup of coffee while talking concepts with him would probably be fun.

[magerette]

<sigh> this is not how I wanted to spend the start of my Saturday; cleaning coffee of my monitor & Keyboard :lol:


I hope it was laughter that caused the spill and not a sudden increase in blood pressure. :) This really is what happened to me--no lie. I'm always amazed when I hear someone's actually finished Lionheart--I stand in awe.:worship:

@Zaleukos--have fun with Dungeon Lords--maybe by the time you eventually get your rigs upgraded a bit there will be some good NWN2 mods around. I'm looking forward to the Planescape Trilogy (http://www.planescapetrilogy.com/) from Rogue Dao myself.

[Zaleukos]

We got Lionheart at the budget price of SEK 69 ($10.50), and after I sipped the singleplayer game we decided to try it during last weekend. The games schizo nature is reversed in MP in my opinion.

The first part (Barcelona) plays a lot like Baldurs Gate, a solid singleplayer RPG. But it is (just like Baldurs Gate) a bit slow for multiplayer since one character will do the talking and the other be a bit passive. There is also some backtracking across town, which takes time even if it is handled much better than in the infinity engine games.

The post-Barcelona game is more like soloing Icewind Dale, wading through enemies in a linear fashion. But having two players give you many more tactical options, making this part much more entertaining in multiplayer than in solo.

And while the game doubles the number of non-boss enemies in MP this actually makes the game easier. Both players gain full experience for every kill and quest, and since you both can specialise the characters more (my gf is an archer/diplomat, I am a 2hander/thief) and gain almost twice the experience you end up unhittable to many enemies that would have been troublesome in singleplayer. This makes the number of enemies moot! So while Dungeon Lords had some odd MP mechanics it is much better balanced for MP.

In the end I think both Dungeon Lords and Lionheart are better in MP than in SP, with the first being more intense and the second having a more interesting setting (I am coloured by being a history buff here). I'd give both 3/5 for SP and 3.5/5 in MP, making them well worth a budget price...

BTW: Dont try to make sense out of the subjective line drawn between the second half of Lionheart and Diablo (which I dislike). I cant explain my strong preference of one over the other using rational arguments:p

[magerette]

There are few rational arguments in gaming--especially on the internet.No worries :)

Good to know someone got a good second half out of Lionheart. I can see how having the options you mentioned might remove some of the SP torture.:p

[Zaleukos]

We have played through both Dungeon Lords and Lionheart now. Damn they felt short, especially the obviously unfinished Lionheart. Neither game was anywhere near dethroning BG/IWD:p

I think it is safe to say that both game solve some of their issues in MP, but the party dynamics are very poorly implemented in Dungeon Lords (where you cant trade gold and some items, the party-wide spells only become available in the late game, and quest rewards are partially bugged for the non-hosting players). Still well worth the budget prices we paid though...

Unfortunately neither title have the quality to be an option for a replay during the xmas holiday, so we might end up getting Anno after all... And I'm grateful for tips of Swedish (shipping gets substantially more expensive once you cross the border) online shops with Evil Islands or Pool of Radiance 2:)