Will you be importing The Witcher? [Archive]

Lethal Weapon

October 19th, 2007, 08:11

As you propably already know the US - and maybe the German version - is censored (God bless Atari); adult quests, nudity, finishing moves and idk what else are on the list. Considering this is supposed to be an adult game, that's imo nothing less than spitting on the devs' face - and i mean the actual programmers and artists, not CDP.

Furthermore this is the first game, at least in recent years, that appears to deal with adult themes in a (hopefully) serious manner. If successfull, it could open up a whole new market for videogames, proving that they can offer more that mere entertainment, much like books.

From an artistic pov, adult themes appear to be flawlessly integrated in Sapkwoski's work (I recently read "The Last Wish", highly recommend it, full of metaphors that really make you think) and considering the game is modelled on the novels, I suspect any censorship is going to alter the experience, to say the least.

Not to mention I am against censorship as a matter of principle.

So my question is this: what do you think about the matter? Are you American gamers going to import the uncensored version from Europe or you really don't mind? If you do mind wouldn't you agree that this form of censorship has nothing to do with basic consumer's rights and ideals such as freedom of speech?

chamr

October 19th, 2007, 09:12

I will be importing. Can't stand the thought that I'm missing out on part of the original vision, even if it is a just a cheap thrill or two that's been cut. However, are you sure they went as far as cutting some of the finishing moves? If so, it's even more definite I'll be importing!

Gorath

October 19th, 2007, 09:59

The German version is uncut.

Dagar

October 19th, 2007, 15:26

Definitely importing.
Have mine on pre-order from the UK for a while.

Censoring the game in the USA is a complete joke. What the hell good are the ratings if they censor content anyways? I will never support censored releases.

Icefire

October 19th, 2007, 16:42

Why can't they just release games and leave it up to the parents as to what their children should and shouldn't see? How hard would it be to implement a password system based on ratings in the game menu so parents could block "R" or even "X" rated stuff? This way adults can play the game the way it was intended while still protecting their children from content they don't want them to see. I can do this on my television and the internet, why can't this be done in games?

narpet

October 19th, 2007, 16:42

I'll probably import the game. I really like to play a game the way the developers created it. I don't really care so much what the content is that is censored, I just want to play the original game, and not a version that has had any of the developers vision removed.

narpet

October 19th, 2007, 16:53

I was wondering if anyone has a good recommendation on where to order an import of The Witcher. I'd like to get the European Limited Edition... anyone know where that's for sale from a company that will ship to the US?

Thanks!

magerette

October 19th, 2007, 17:15

narpet

October 19th, 2007, 17:31

dteowner

October 19th, 2007, 17:47

I expect it's getting censored to achieve a certain rating from the review board. Getting a "bad" (adult) rating locks your game out of Wal-Mart and many other sellers. No publisher is going to let trivial things like artistic integrity and parental discretion get in the way of sales, folks.

narpet

October 19th, 2007, 17:49

narpet I'm looking at two places right now since I can't decide if I want the LE or if just the vanilla Witcher will be enough. gogamer (http://www.gogamer.com/searchresults.htm?keywords=The+Witcher&brandId=&price=&653Search=true&categoryId=444758&x=52&y=18) has a UK import edition here in the U.S. and for the CE, this looks like a U.K. source, but I have never used it before: Game (http://www.game.co.uk/PC/RolePlaying/~r331664/The-Witcher-Collectors-Edition/) has it and here is their shipping policy (http://www.game.co.uk/help/shipping.aspx): Note this doesn't include all the items in the Polish LE.

Magerette: I have tried to order from game and it keeps telling me that they can't process the order and I should check my payment details or try another method of payment. I have tried 3 different credit cards, all of which I use all the time for online ordering. I did purchase the Gothic 3 Collector's edition from a Swedish online store previously with the same credit card and had no problem, so I'm not sure what's going on...

Do you have any ideas?

aries100

October 19th, 2007, 18:01

Luckily :) I'm in Europe, so I won't be importing the game. The Scandinavian versions we get here tend to the UK uncut versions of games.

zakhal

October 19th, 2007, 18:11

Luckily :) I'm in Europe, so I won't be importing the game. The Scandinavian versions we get here tend to the UK uncut versions of games.

UK version isnt always uncut. Somtimes its actually the reverse i.e fallout2 US version was uncut while UK version was cut. Its up to the customer everytime to make independent research which version of the game is cut/uncut (they should show it in product details), allthough som german-only-shops specialize in selling uncut versions so you dont have to do it yourself.

MikeZZ

October 19th, 2007, 18:44

The only thing censored will be nipples. The gore and violence stays uncut for sure.

Sergius64

October 19th, 2007, 19:21

Magerette: I have tried to order from game and it keeps telling me that they can't process the order and I should check my payment details or try another method of payment. I have tried 3 different credit cards, all of which I use all the time for online ordering. I did purchase the Gothic 3 Collector's edition from a Swedish online store previously with the same credit card and had no problem, so I'm not sure what's going on...

Do you have any ideas?

I had the same problem with my first card, but my second card went through on the first try. Not sure what the problem was with the first one, its just a Normal Visa Credit Card. The one that went through was my checking card from Washington Mutual, it has MasterCard logo. Are all your cards VISA's?

Lethal Weapon

October 19th, 2007, 19:25

However, are you sure they went as far as cutting some of the finishing moves?

Finishing moves have been mentioned, as well as other things relating to violence (I read somewhere about depiction of blood). No one can be certain though what will make it to the final versions as there has been no official word, I guess we'll only know after the game's release. Atari went as far as making the two boxes look identical, guess Atari's executives must be convinced that their customers are idiots.

The German version is uncut.

If true, that's great news.

Getting a "bad" (adult) rating locks your game out of Wal-Mart and many other sellers.

And how do you think this state of affairs is going to change? Or are you satisfied with it? We're not talking about a porn movie here.

The only thing censored will be nipples. The gore and violence stays uncut for sure.

By 'nipples' I take it you mean all the other sex-related stuff too? Linkie?

I have tried to order from game and it keeps telling me that they can't process the order and I should check my payment details or try another method of payment.

From my limited experience, one possible cause might be they didn't expect that many preorders and are unable of accepting them all (this had certainly been the case with at least one site). If a significant portion of American gamers are getting the European version, that should cause a temporary chaos in the distribution network (and tell the people responsible something about their practices). Maybe try again in a few days?

narpet

October 19th, 2007, 19:51

I had the same problem with my first card, but my second card went through on the first try. Not sure what the problem was with the first one, its just a Normal Visa Credit Card. The one that went through was my checking card from Washington Mutual, it has MasterCard logo. Are all your cards VISA's?

No, I tried 2 Mastercards and 1 Visa... and none of them worked. I'm not sure why... but I found another site that is selling the LE, and I ordered it there with no problems...:)

MikeZZ

October 19th, 2007, 20:05

http://forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=585010&forum=22&sp=120
here's the link about censorship. (Witu_CDPR post). You can learn more form official forum. I heard what's gonna be censored : (covered nipples) - two NPC's one monster and of course sex cards. Nothing more. I don't think it will affect the story or dialogues. So really - only nipples :)

txa1265

October 19th, 2007, 20:28

So all the US loses is nipples? Well, if I need nipples I can get more than I ever wanted to see in 5 seconds on Google ... so I'm good :D

Lethal Weapon

October 19th, 2007, 21:04

I heard what's gonna be censored : (covered nipples) - two NPC's one monster and of course sex cards.

I would really like to know where are you getting your info from. That dev post you linked is old and he's not talking about anything else other than green blood (US gets green blood?). I just checked the official site, nothing there either. It appears your source is Gamefaqs/Gamespot, (that's where you 'heard' the above rumor, apparently) but then again there are other rumors there to choose from. Another rumor is that beheadings have been cut. Guess we will know soon, won't we?

Lethal Weapon

October 19th, 2007, 21:13

So all the US loses is nipples? Well, if I need nipples I can get more than I ever wanted to see in 5 seconds on Google ... so I'm good :D

Even if it is 'just nipples' it depends on how they implement it. In Sapkowski's short story "Lesser Evil" Geralt is visiting a wizard's tower whose servants are topless ladies - who turn out to be illusions. If such a scene were to be cencored you would be missing more than 'just nipples'. Not to mention the aesthetic value, your judgement of the wizard will be altered, and Geralt also has to make an important decision about the wizard down the road.

It all depends of course on how it is implemented.

Squeek

October 19th, 2007, 21:17

The whole idea of cut content in an RPG rubs me the wrong way. Can you ever really be sure about what's missing? I say gimme all the blood! Let me worry about naughty words or deeds! And don't even get me started on nipples!

MikeZZ

October 19th, 2007, 21:42

Ok. I'll ask the devs on official forum. Then I'll let U know.

MikeZZ

October 19th, 2007, 22:20

I found that post
http://www.thewitcher.com/forum/index.php?topic=1059.345

Q:Now that the ratings board decisions have been made, could one of the devs be a little clearer on what exactly is removed in the American version? I need to know if I should import or not.

A: Well just few characters needed to be modified - some certain parts needed to be hidden by hairs and cloth;). Two monsters and one NPC to be precise.

and that is all
edit:
so
blood : uncut
quests: uncut
dialogues: uncut
nudity: cut

chamr

October 19th, 2007, 22:24

The funniest (in a sad sort of way) part is that here in the good old US of A, women's nipples are so horribly offensive and downright corrupting to children that they must be removed to avoid the dreaded Adult rating. However beheadings (possibly), unrelenting violence and repeated disembowelings with sharp objects is just fine and dandy!

:lol: :) :-/ :( :'(

what the hell is wrong with people in this country....

Sergius64

October 19th, 2007, 23:46

what the hell is wrong with people in this country....

I'ld say its Religion. It's always been about "morality" and how anything sexual is somehow "immoral", yet it often supports violence in the form of Religiously inspired wars.

magerette

October 19th, 2007, 23:50

No, I tried 2 Mastercards and 1 Visa... and none of them worked. I'm not sure why... but I found another site that is selling the LE, and I ordered it there with no problems...:)

What site was it narpet? I only use one card online and if it won't take that, too bad. :)

narpet

October 19th, 2007, 23:55

What site was it narpet? I only use one card online and if it won't take that, too bad. :)

I was able to get the game from http://www.gpstore.co.nz/ with no problems...

magerette

October 20th, 2007, 00:10

Bookmarked. Thanks narpet. I may just go with the plain Import edition--I'm not really that hung up on the paraphernalia-I just want the boobies as the artists and devs intended them to be. I thought the concept art of the Bruxa was infinitely more frightening as a real naked corpselike creature--can't imagine it with clothes on. :)

dteowner

October 20th, 2007, 00:44

And how do you think this state of affairs is going to change? Or are you satisfied with it? We're not talking about a porn movie here.I don't agree with it, as is evident from the dripping sarcasm I used. However, in the real world, that's going to be a very difficult fight to win. Which company is going to be the first one to proudly advertise, "We now sell smut to children again!"?? Now, keep in mind that's not what the company will say nor do, but that's certainly how their competition and various do-gooders will spin it. It's much easier (and profitable) to "be a good corporate citizen, trying to protect our poor innocent children from twisted and depraved games" than it is to say "hey parents, get off yer dead ass and decide if your kids are mature enough to handle this type of entertainment"

curiously undead

October 20th, 2007, 01:34

it still all boils down to the influence of concervative religion in this country rather than taking a common sense approach. its morally uncacceptable to expose children to themes and truth about/of sex and drugs but its okay to showcase any kind of violence, and seperating another person from their soul so to speak. whether its the hypocrisy of the gay politicians, or priests the only way a more sensible societal resolution is when the biggots finally get their assess beaten enough that their sway over the majority of folks who don't think like them in the first place will have the freedom do as they please.
but i suppose theirs trade offs. we lead the world in serial killers, but at least we do a good job of not have children sold into sexual slavery.

oh and back on topic are you really paying 90 bucks (not including shipping) narpet?! you must be a rich man.

this seems to be the international version for 47 with shipping for those interested, 4 copies available.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=62053&item=270177616647

Corwin

October 20th, 2007, 02:07

$90 is normal price for a game down this end of the world!!

curiously undead

October 20th, 2007, 02:39

yeah but your beard is made of gold Corwin;)

Lucky Day

October 20th, 2007, 05:33

Badesumofu

October 20th, 2007, 06:15

http://www.game.co.uk - I live in Australia and I had no trouble ordering it from them. I also got MotB from them.

Lucky Day, I have to wonder if you've been reading the same thread as I have. What I'm hearing is that we are opposed to censorship and want to see the content as the artists intended it. If I just wanted boobies, I could download gigs and gigs of them with little to no difficulty. If the game isn't to your taste, then that's fine, no one is forcing you to play it. You don't need to patronise the rest of us who are looking forward to what looks like being the best CRPG in years.

Also, do you really think Government Censorship constitutes 'standards'? Do you think that saying ultra-violence is fine but sex is wrong constitutes standards? If it's not to your personal taste, that's fine. Implying that the rest of us are perverted deviants is just plain offensive though.

dteowner

October 20th, 2007, 06:26

I think what you should be hearing is, "Wahh, I want to choose for myself if I want boobies." You're not interested in that sort of thing, and I'm perfectly fine with your choice. Magerette wants glorious knockers (nope, not going there ;) ), and you should be perfectly fine with her choice.

magerette

October 20th, 2007, 06:51

I gave my reasons and they were not prurient( or wish fulfillment, either dte ;) ) but artistic. There is nothing shameful or even particularly sexual about nudity in art. It's a depiction of the human form. (or in the case of the Bruxa, the evil undead non-human form) I'm not saying I'm eager to view Bimbo Biker Babes from Space or something, but what I saw in the concept art was far from lascivious. It's supposed to be an adult game--adults accept the fact that reproductive body parts exist without giggling like a bunch of second graders.

Besides, I really don't think I'm going to find anything nastier in a video game than I can see on the five o'clock news, or than I have personally experienced in life. I expect it to be like reading a well-written adult novel. I don't want a bunch of morality police deciding what is going to corrupt my values--it certainly won't be a couple of gratuitous nipples.

If there was actual porn in the game I wouldn't be buying it censored or uncensored. I could do without the card game, but it seems rather tongue in cheek and even James Bondish, so I doubt it will outrage me. Men objectifying women as sex objects is one of their endearing ways of both idealizing and underestimating them--and I believe it's a two way street. :)

Greyloch

October 20th, 2007, 08:35

I'm going to be importing. I'm tired of censorship, and tired of having others who think they can decide for me what I should or should not see. From the sound of things, there's nothing in there that would warrant anything above an M rating anyway, which makes it even sillier.

dteowner

October 20th, 2007, 17:21

This might be a good time to add this little bit of joy via YouTube:
No Laughing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfChpyE9Ihc)

aries100

October 20th, 2007, 18:36

all I hear from this thread is "wahh, I want boobies".

I'm not going to bother with this game. It seems that nearly every major RPG put out these days is something immature with an "adult" rating. NWN2 has been the only exception.

This game doesn't seem any less gratuitous than anything else that's is/will come out. It just seems to pretend its more sophisticated.

It is refreshing though to note that the US still has some standards. So does Germany it seems by correcting their initial rating on it.

I don't think that's what people are saying. I think what they are saying is that they want to play the game as the developers intended the game to be played, e.g. the nipples shouldn't be covered, the cardgame should still be in the game and the other stuff that was cut should be in the game as well.

You're of course free to buy the games you want, but when you buy a Mature rated game, you must expect to find Mature content in it, regardless of the nipples are covered or not. I don't understand people complaining about the swearing and language in e.g Bioshcok. The game are clearly marked as Mature and there is a language descriptor which clearly says 'strong language'.

In the US many stores won't sell Mature rated games to people under the age of 17 anyway, so I don't see what the problem is. In the UK and in Germany, the game got an 18+ rarting. In these two countries it will be against the law to sell the uncut version of the Witcher to people under the age of 18. The PEGI rating will also be 18. And I do believe that's why Germany changed their rating from
16+ to 18+ - to be aligned with the PEGI rating. (this is just a guess, though).

As for videogames putting 'smut' into games, I'm more worried about the option to gun down an man that has surrendered in Mass Effect that I'm of a 12-17 year old seeing nipples in a video game. The Witcher is still rated Mature, though.

/aries100

txa1265

October 20th, 2007, 19:52

when you buy a Mature rated game, you must expect to find Mature content in it, regardless of the nipples are covered or not.
Exactly - I see no reason that the criteria for a M game shouldn't be the same as a R movie.

Dhruin

October 21st, 2007, 02:51

I'll be importing it but it isn't really a statement on censorship - I get a large chunk of my games from the UK because I often get them faster and cheaper that way. Being the original version is sort of bonus but having seen the adult content, it's not really a big deal.

From a censorship perspective, it's adult content in a clearly marked adult game -- if you don't like that, you can exercise your personal prerogative and not buy it.

Lucky Day

October 21st, 2007, 08:32

Which is what I'll be doing but that's at the gist of what frustrates me: why all of a sudden is every major RPG game out there an "adult" game? That's the topic of another thread but I haven't started it yet because I'm not sure yet if its really worth it and if it would be any good.

More specific to this topic is I'm constantly hearing this drone about "censorship" as being somehow the greatest evil in the universe. This is not the first time I've heard these arguments and as much as they rails against "the man" and tries to claim artistic merit I can't help but read between the lines and play amateur psychologist over what I'm seeing. I'm sorry if I took too much liberty.

I don't think I can ever win the argument in one of these threads (there is one every month it seems in the NWN forums: ie: the 1.10 patch and the change in the Warlock in NWN2. I also get to hear it from the poor commie university students about once at week at my school.)

However, I mainly want to point out that there's another point of view on these matters and some people appreciate some sort of standard even if they are bit informal.

Zaleukos

October 21st, 2007, 10:05

To me the adult contents of the Witcher seem fairly inconsequential. If I get the game it'll be whatever version the Swedish online retailers have in stock. From experience I know that I tend to become blind to graphical details of that sort pretty soon.

What amuses me is the inherent double standard in where the line between adult and ok is drawn, particularly when it comes to the fantasy genre. The genre is oozing with scantily clad woman and sexism to such an extent that getting hanged up on nipples seems rather absurd. I would for instance not think that the representation of the drow queen in the hordes of the underdark was made any more children friendly just because she covered her nipples, but that game wasnt barred from Walmart? Anyway the main reason for me to want less nudity in RPGs is that I like to look at realistic (or at least plausible) sets of armour and clothing, not that nipples or naked skin scare me:p

Lethal Weapon

October 21st, 2007, 11:06

all I hear from this thread is "wahh, I want boobies"...
It is refreshing though to note that the US still has some standards. So does Germany it seems by correcting their initial rating on it.

I can't speak for others, but the reason I started this thread has nothing to do with me wanting 'boobies' or the game itself for that matter. If you do a search on my previous posts I have already expressed many of my doubts about the game; even if the designers have the best intentions, the result might not end up be good.

I have no trouble with rating boards either. Each country is free to rate their games, movies, books or whatever as they see fit.

What troubles me the most is censorship. This is a completely separate matter which has nothing to do with either content or rating. An uncensored X-rated movie may be nominated for or win an Oscar prize; Clockwork Orange, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Last Tango in Paris to name a few. If the makers of those gems had to worry of most theatres not showing their films because of the rating they might not have gone into the trouble of making them in the first place.

If the content is bad then it will be naturally rejected by the society as a whole. Which brings us to the game. Is the content in the Witcher that bad that Atari has decided to cut in order to trick their customers into buying it? Or is it good, in which case Atari simply deprives their customers from the experience? I really don't know. But the fact that a game gets censored and porn is not makes me want to defend the game.

I also get to hear it from the poor commie university students about once at week at my school.

Out of curiosity, would you care to elaborate? Where I live (Europe, Greece) communists are a well-established minority represented in the parliament. Although I never voted for them it would be foolish for me not to acknowledge that they have made a number of positive contributions to the political scene. They are certainly not poor. Their leader had her children receive the most expensive education available (including sending at least one of them to the States, which can be very expensive for a European). As far as I know, communist parties exist in most countries. And, speaking of communism, censorship has been one of Stalin's main methods. As well as Hitler's.

I'm sorry if I took too much liberty.

That's ok. I'm sure we all here understand that you're in an age that your view of the world is not yet fixed. It's only natural for you to fluctuate. Maybe you should not attempt playing The Witcher or any other adult-themed game until you are 'mature' enough.

Zakhary

October 21st, 2007, 11:25

The version here in scandinavia will most likely be the "uncut" UK version, yes?
Well.. no matter.. I'll propably wait for a patch or two (always a good idea) and then order from play.com because it's so much cheaper.

Uncovered nipples? Yes, please.

And by the way... It'll propably take 15seconds for someone to release an "unofficial" patch that replaces a file or two from the euro version to the cencored version.. So no biggie. Just buy the damn game :D

zima98

October 21st, 2007, 12:11

Mhm..I don't have such problem - it will be uncut an exposed in the centre of our equivalent of Wall-marts beside of Mature rating (and I'm not talking only about the Witcher).

I think the point is that somebody else decide for you what you can watch. You have M rating on cover, you can read previews and rewievs, read what users say about the game, so you can decide if you wanna play it, I think you are able to create your own opinion is it in bad taste or accurate ect. So you're mature enough to pay taxes, to go to prison, to vote but not to decide on your own what you will be playing? There are people who knows better? I don't like when somebody tries to think for me.

And I'm more annoyed by things like that:
http://gry.onet.pl/28064,1445272,16,artykul.html
(the title of article is: How to make fool from player?)
than this:
http://wiki.thewitcher.com/index.php/Bruxa

Prime Junta

October 21st, 2007, 13:29

@Lucky Day -- In NWN2, I have:

* Consorted with devils.
* Committed arson.
* Burned some bratty teenagers to death ("they attacked me first").
* Mercilessly slaughtered and robbed a bunch of people who never did me any harm (lizardmen, cave, east of a certain inn).
* Practiced necromancy (I'm pretty sure I cast an Animate Dead somewhere in there).

And, of course, my alignment was Good and I got the Good ending.

And yet you hold NWN2 as an example of good, clean family fun, but you've got your knickers in a twist because, apparently, one version of The Witcher features (non-depicted) sex between consenting adults and the occasional exposed nipple?

Forgive me if I have a certain amount of difficulty in understanding your priorities.

Prime Junta

October 21st, 2007, 13:34

Anyway the main reason for me to want less nudity in RPGs is that I like to look at realistic (or at least plausible) sets of armour and clothing, not that nipples or naked skin scare me:p

Hear hear. The chainmail bikini is really, really old by now.

Sex, profanity, violence, etc. should be powerful devices used to affect the audience. Constant titillation, constant profanity, and constant violence simply devalue them. What I'd really like to see is where people keep their clothes on when they belong on, take them off when they belong off, and only curse and kill when it actually means something.

Icefire

October 21st, 2007, 18:02

But the fact that a game gets censored and porn is not makes me want to defend the game.

But porn isn't sold at Wal-mart or Ebgames is it? If a game is intended for ADULTS only, where can they sell it? An adult bookstore? I still say it's up to the parents to determine what their kids can and can't see. Password protected content in the game is the most obvious and easiest solution. But I am certainly not gonna let my kids watch porn. I MAY let them play the game uncensored. See the difference?

Lucky Day

October 21st, 2007, 19:02

Ubereil

October 21st, 2007, 19:19

Where does fear come into the picture? If anyone in this discussion is afraid of doing something, that would be the creators of The Witcher who's afraid of makeing an adult game (or if it's their publisher) since that might mean they'd lose the teen market (and therefore they censor their game)...

Talking about Obsidian as a dev with courage is a bit misdirected IMO, since OE didn't exactly take many risks with NWN 2. Especially not in the original campaign. Daring to make a game for teens isn't very daring in my book...

Übereil

zakhal

October 21st, 2007, 19:25

But porn isn't sold at Wal-mart or Ebgames is it? If a game is intended for ADULTS only, where can they sell it? An adult bookstore? I still say it's up to the parents to determine what their kids can and can't see. Password protected content in the game is the most obvious and easiest solution. But I am certainly not gonna let my kids watch porn. I MAY let them play the game uncensored. See the difference?

In filmrenting store the videos with naked skin and som sex (i.e Basic instinct) are mixed with all the other films. Even porn films (BTW Witcher IS NOT PORN! theres a difference) are in the same space allthough they usually have their own shelfspace. Why should video games have different standards than video films?

dteowner

October 21st, 2007, 21:50

We're a lot more uptight about it here in the States, zakhal.

It really still comes down to economics. Someone at Wal-Mart decided to get into the morality business (most likely in a proactive move against silly lawsuits--I think that policy came out shortly after Columbine, yes?) and that started the dominos falling. Now the entire industry is forced to play along. It's so much easier to slide down that hill than to climb back up, so I just don't see a major retailer reversing the trend any time soon.

Zakhary

October 21st, 2007, 22:57

This conversation has gone completely off topic.
We were talking about nipples. Nipples!

Prime Junta

October 21st, 2007, 23:17

Well some of your points are silly. The reason I used it as an example is because its a good game and OE hasn't been afraid to try make it for a teen market.

Which points?

The thing that puzzles me is that I can't understand how you feel that a game with necromancy, demonology, and mass murder is less morally objectionable than one with (non-depicted) sex between consenting adults.

(Personally, I don't think *any* of these things, in a game, are particularly harmful for teens; most of 'em have no trouble distinguishing between fact and fiction.)

Jaz

October 21st, 2007, 23:27

We were talking about nipples. Nipples!Oh yes! Now, finally, we're talking sense :thumbsup:.
Personally, I don't think *any* of these things, in a game, are particularly harmful for teens; most of 'em have no trouble distinguishing between fact and fiction.Ditto.

Prime Junta

October 21st, 2007, 23:43

BTW, Lucky, did you play Mask of the Betrayer yet? You know, that NWN2 expansion where the core mechanic involves devouring immortal souls to sate the dark hunger lurking inside you? There's a really nice quest in there too; it involves forcibly combining a rich but corrupt and a poor but virtuous soul and using that as a bargaining chip with a couple of deranged pit fiends.

No exposed nipples, though, so it's fine for teens. Right?

MikeZZ

October 21st, 2007, 23:50

This conversation has gone completely off topic.
We were talking about nipples. Nipples!

here you are
WARNING UNCENSORED PICTURE FROM THE WITCHER :)

http://www.pcgames.de/?menu=browser&mode=fullscreen&pic=/screenshots/original/2007/10/Teil4_17.JPG&name=PC%20Games%20Exklusiv

Lucky Day

October 22nd, 2007, 03:09

...Magerette wants glorious knockers (nope, not going there ;) ), and you should be perfectly fine with her choice.

that's pretty funny

dteowner

October 22nd, 2007, 04:36

Green boobies? Scandalous. The insidious evil of the game has already taken over. I am compelled to go rip the clothes off the first woman I come across. Mrs dte will be so thrilled...

Dhruin

October 22nd, 2007, 05:48

Actually, the dryad offers more than just green boobies...let's just say the curtains match the drapes.

chamr

October 22nd, 2007, 07:19

Actually, the dryad offers more than just green boobies...let's just say the curtains match the drapes.

Doh! *ra-ta-tat-tat* Thank you, folks. He'll be here all week.

P.S. btw, it's "the carpet matches the drapes"...

chamr

October 22nd, 2007, 07:26

here you are
WARNING UNCENSORED PICTURE FROM THE WITCHER :)

http://www.pcgames.de/?menu=browser&mode=fullscreen&pic=/screenshots/original/2007/10/Teil4_17.JPG&name=PC%20Games%20Exklusiv

You mean to tell me you can score the green dryad chica in the card game!?!?!?! The Witcher just went from a definite buy to a definite, definite buy!!!!

:)

magerette

October 22nd, 2007, 07:27

P.S. btw, it's "the carpet matches the drapes
I knew what he meant. But that does make more sense.

And by god, if a dryad can't run around naked who can?

Zakhary

October 22nd, 2007, 09:25

Haha :D

Thanks guys and gals. This thread
just got fun (and interesting) again!

What was that about the dryads carpets & drapes? :D

Prime Junta

October 22nd, 2007, 09:44

Um... they're tasteful interior decorators?

MikeZZ

October 22nd, 2007, 10:16

Actually, the dryad offers more than just green boobies...let's just say the curtains match the drapes.

Is she bald ? No s...t ! Where ? :)

Dhruin

October 23rd, 2007, 01:47

Doh! *ra-ta-tat-tat* Thank you, folks. He'll be here all week.

P.S. btw, it's "the carpet matches the drapes"...

Sorry, yes, carpet. Anyway...

StackSmasher

October 23rd, 2007, 05:58

Import from GoGamer.com.

Censorship is just wrong when done by anyone other than the creator(s) of the affected work. I don't care if it's a nipple or whole pages of text. Parents should decide what their children are exposed to until they reach an age where they can make those decisions for themselves. However when governments, churches, et cetera do it then that is evil and manipulative.

That's my opinion, anyway, and you did ask :)

txa1265

October 23rd, 2007, 06:35

Parents should decide what their children are exposed to until they reach an age where they can make those decisions for themselves.
Thing is, by rating it 'M' (or 18+), it *is* only for those who are old enough to decide ... you can die for your country, but not see nipples in a video game ...

Lethal Weapon

October 23rd, 2007, 08:42

Import from GoGamer.com.

Censorship is just wrong when done by anyone other than the creator(s) of the affected work. ... However when governments, churches, et cetera do it then that is evil and manipulative.

Only in this case it is not governments, churches or any other institutions that do the actual censorship. It is Atari. Being afraid to take risks and obviously convinced that the American market cannot handle adult games, they chose to cut, instead of doing the honest thing and not publishing at all.

CDP might be big in Poland, but a very small player worldwide. From what I understand they have also invested a considerable amount in the game's development. It is not hard to understand that when faced with the possibility of censoring the game or not publishing at all they chose the former.

That is the reason that in case i decide to play this game (I've learned the hard way to trust no preview and no hype), I will be ordering straight from the source. The downside is I can't speak a word in Polish, but I guess it will be only a matter of replacing some text files to get English subs, perhaps after torrenting the Atari version.

The upside is that Polish voice-overs sound like 10x times better :thumbsup:

That's my opinion, anyway, and you did ask :)

And thank you for answering.

Prime Junta

October 23rd, 2007, 11:52

Isn't the original (Polish) version also internationalized? That is, can't you pick your language on install?

Dhruin

October 23rd, 2007, 13:02

Hmm...I can assure you the UK version is uncensored and has decent voiceovers, so getting the Polish version seems pointless to me. *shrug*

aries100

October 23rd, 2007, 13:29

MikeZZ

October 23rd, 2007, 14:41

The Norwegian gamesite X6 gives Witcher 6/6

http://x6.no/omtaler.php?op=Spill&id=1895
Traslation (using free online translator)

http://www.tranexp.com:2000/InterTran?url=http%3A%2F%2Fx6.no%2Fomtaler.php%3Fo p%3DSpill%26id%3D1895&type=text&text=&from=nor&to=eng

Prime Junta

October 23rd, 2007, 16:46

I would like to play the game in Polish, but with English subtitles. I recently played a demo for a Hungarian adventure game in which there only was Hungarian voiceovers and English subtitles & text. It really added to the realism and ambience of the setting. People who have played STALKER like the Russian voices in STALKER, too, I think...

Me too. I might even be able to pick up some Polish -- I'm fairly fluent in Russian and can get by in Ukrainian (or could, anyway, my Ukrainian has got to be pretty rusty by now), so Polish is just on the cusp of understandable. I saw With Fire and Sword (Ogniem i Mieczem) in Kyiv, and I could *ALLLMOST* understand the Polish dialog.

It's a great film, by the way -- if you're into full-on swords-and-cavalry-charges-and-romantic-subplots action (and if you aren't, what the hell are you *doing* here anyway?) and haven't seen it, you oughta.

[ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0128378/ ]
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/With_Fire_and_Sword_(film) ]

Jabberwocky

October 23rd, 2007, 17:43

I pre-ordered the cut, censored, conservative, stuffy, prudish,... evil? version of the Witcher from Gamestop a few weeks back. And you know what? I absolutely don't mind that nipples have been removed. It is really a ridiculous point to get all worked up over. I've got better things to do than worry about that. As long as the story remains intact, that's good enough for me.

And as opposed to what most of you believe, I absolutely feel that the increasing depravity of society today is largely due to the influence of entertainment. Claiming that what you watch or listen to doesn't affect your thinking is as silly as claiming that shooting yourself in the head won't have any affect on your mind. Whether or not a school shooting could have been avoided if that one student had not seen The Matrix is debatable.... but the influences have to start somewhere. Saying they don't is completely naive.

zakhal

October 23rd, 2007, 17:55

Prime Junta

October 23rd, 2007, 18:12

Claiming that what you watch or listen to doesn't affect your thinking is as silly as claiming that shooting yourself in the head won't have any affect on your mind. Whether or not a school shooting could have been avoided if that one student had not seen The Matrix is debatable.... but the influences have to start somewhere. Saying they don't is completely naive.

I don't think anyone here is claiming that what you watch or listen to doesn't affect your thinking. Of course it does.

However, I don't think you can point to any individual thing -- or even genre, or phenomenon -- and legitimately claim that there lies the blame. "If only that Virginia Tech guy hadn't see The Matrix" or "If only Dylan and Klebold hadn't played DOOM" is a red herring.

I believe that the problem is if people -- teens, children, adults, everyone -- don't get a wide enough range of different influences.

For example, if *all* someone does is watch Law and Order, or play World of Warcraft, or read the New York Times, or gossip with their friends, or watch CNN, or watch Fox News, or read the Daily Kos, or read the Free Republic, or read news.bbc.co.uk, they will end up with some pretty strange ideas about life, the universe, sex, other people, and the world in general.

What does that mean for parents? IMO this: encourage the kids to experiment with a wide range of things -- and exercise common sense about what's appropriate for their age and developmental stage, and do something if it looks like they're stuck exclusively on one thing -- never mind if that one thing is 19th century Russian literature or World of Warcraft.

"Everything in moderation" is a pretty good motto IMO. Watch entertainment shows on TV, watch the news, read the news, play some games, read blogs, participate on BBS's, talk to your friends, talk to your enemies, talk to your family... do *everything* -- and you'll end up with a pretty well-rounded, realistic, reasonable view on things.

And that includes the occasional exposed nipple, fountain of gore, or role-played session of bargaining with infernal forces.

Zakhary

October 23rd, 2007, 18:22

Perhaps I could understand if someone would want to ban/censor a cop-killing simulator like GTA. Or something Like Postal or Manhunt. Perhaps I could understand if someone would like to ban/censor roleplaying games that let you commit horrible deeds and the only consequence for the playeris more gold/exp/Loot. I said perhaps I could understand, I would not accept censorship.

But I cannot possibly begin to understand what is so horrible/demoralizing/traumatizing/intolerable about a nipple.
Even if it was not green. Even if there were a pair of them. Even if there were a dozen of them. Nipples. Tits. How exactly does seeing a bare female chest in a video game cause harm to anyone?

No, really? Cause I haven't got a clue.

zima98

October 23rd, 2007, 19:22

Matrix didnt have any nipples. Its violant film though. But of course violance does not need to be censored unlike teh nipples o doom.

Funny how game like witcher can come from a hardcore catholic country like Poland. I guess they havent had enough time yet to create proper censorship laws.

:) We had high developed censorship during communis, we just decided not continue that.

In our hardcore catholic country nobody hasn't even thought about censoring The Witcher. Nipples? What big deal, nipples as nipples. Normal thing. Nobody didn't think, focus on this part of the game to the moment when discussion started on foreign forums. The game is rated +18 but I'm sure that most parent wouldn't see nothing wrong in bare chest of dryad in the game. And Matrix a violent film? Really? I seen much worser one when I was a child. ;) When I was 10 I have to read in school short realism story about 19th century peasant life where little girl was burned alive in the kitchen stove.

EDIT: How could we in Poland censore nipples? Just look on symbol of my city :) :
http://www.geocities.com/mmaraszek/images/Warszawa_01/Warszawa_Syrenka_01.jpg
http://miejsca.net/place/image1/229/Syrenka_warszawska0205.jpg
http://www.zolak.boo.pl/_/albom/wawa/syrenka_krolikarniana.jpg

chamr

October 23rd, 2007, 20:15

And as opposed to what most of you believe, I absolutely feel that the increasing depravity of society today is largely due to the influence of entertainment. Claiming that what you watch or listen to doesn't affect your thinking is as silly as claiming that shooting yourself in the head won't have any affect on your mind. Whether or not a school shooting could have been avoided if that one student had not seen The Matrix is debatable.... but the influences have to start somewhere. Saying they don't is completely naive.

Oh for goodness sakes. The reason the Columbine kids did what they did was that they did not have involved parents that played a big enough part in their lives. The VA Tech guy was similar, plus he was crazy and no one put in enough effort to get him the help he needed. Plus, our society, especially here, very often fails to keep young kids connected to their community in such a way as to make the thought of waltzing into school and blindly killing dozens of your peers unthinkable. Do you really think that if the Columbine kids or the VA Tech guy had involved parents that knew what was going on in their lives and were willing to make the personal sacrifices it takes to help a troubled child get back on track that they would have shot and killed all those people anyway? Because they watched too much violent entertainment? Now who's being naive? Their fascination with violent entertainment was one of many symptoms. Certianly NOT the cause. Parents who want to blame their childrens' bad behavior on violent games, bad heavy metal bands and rap are lazy and looking for a cop out. Take responsibility for your children and spend more time with them. Drives me crazy....

Zakhary

October 23rd, 2007, 20:26

Their fascination with violent entertainment was one of many symptoms. Certianly NOT the cause. Parents who want to blame their childrens' bad behavior on violent games, bad heavy metal bands and rap are lazy and looking for a cop out. Take responsibility for your children and spend more time with them. Drives me crazy....

Well put. I wholeheartedly agree.

Also, a child living in a healthy, loving home can withstand even extremely
troubling ,disturbing and unnatural things - like *gasp* A BARE NIPLE!!

aries100

October 23rd, 2007, 20:32

I think people should order of get version of The Witcher or any other game that they're comfortable with playing. I don't much care for nipples in a game just because the developers thinks this game needs nipples.

As for games influencing us, I don't think anyone will disagree with this point. That's why we have ratings on games. When you buy a Mature rated game, or a game rated 18+, you should expect to find Mature content in these games, including partial nudity, sexual themes etc. in Mature rated games. If children younger than 17+ want to play these games, e.g. The Witcher, it must be the parents responsibility to watch and supervise what games their children are playing.

I also agree that seeing nipples, even green nipples, in a videogame isn't going to hurt anyone - at all. In fact, realism is often much worse than anything that can be seen in videogames. In Denmark in older times we've had women called 'angle-makers' who took in children borne of young women out of wedlock. I let you imagination take care of what the title 'angle-makers' refer to. Here's a hint: what are angles --- in folklore...

The point is this: Humans treat each other much worse every day than what we see in video games today, just look at the genocide in Rwanda and other places, or read some history books about how the (spanish) inquistion used the water-boarding technique to interrogate, torture, people. We haven't seen anything like that in videogames...

As for The Witcher coming from Poland, I just think that CDproject enjoys the freedom to make the games they want to make - without any form of censorship.

magerette

October 23rd, 2007, 22:19

.. Plus, our society, especially here, very often fails to keep young kids connected to their community in such a way as to make the thought of waltzing into school and blindly killing dozens of your peers unthinkable. Do you really think that if the Columbine kids or the VA Tech guy had involved parents that knew what was going on in their lives and were willing to make the personal sacrifices it takes to help a troubled child get back on track that they would have shot and killed all those people anyway? Because they watched too much violent entertainment? ...

All good points, chamr. I'd also like to point out that when I grew up in the fifities there was absolutely no blood, gore or violent horror in movies or TV. There were no video games. News was bland and gave little coverage to sensational crimes, and war footage was never shown. Guys in westerns who were shot clapped a hand over their heart and fell down. Alfred Hitchcock had Psycho censored and it was still considered quite mature fare.

This didn't seem to stop individual or world real life violence, Charlie Manson, the Boston Strangler, the University of Texas sniper or the Zodiac Killer.

I do think we are becoming desensitized to violence, and even to sex, though--what was revolutionary and exciting for Marilyn Monroe is run of the mill and not enough for Britney. The envelope gets pushed farther and farther-(-anybody seen the movie Videodrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videodrome)?)

My complaint isn't that it provokes the dark side of human nature which is always there anyway, but that ultimately sensationalism without content is boring and has nothing to offer but a brief cheap thrill.

I don't think that's the case with most video games, especially rpgs, though obviously there will always be exceptions. A few shots of the human body seem pretty harmless to me. :)

btw--nice pics of the stone ladies of Poland, zima98. Thanks for sharing them.

Squeek

October 23rd, 2007, 22:48

Nipples are a pain if you ask me, and I'm glad men don't have them (yes, this is sarcasm)!

Women spend their whole lives concealing them, restraining them, hoping they won't suddenly escape and poke out, and thereby creating confusion, controversy and general ruination of the preferred status quo.

I ask myself, “Are nipples good? Bad? Are they beautiful? Or are they merely functional? Should I feel guilt for secretly holding them in high esteem? How does one make amends for nipple-related transgressions?”

Who needs this kind of pressure? I hear they don't have nipples in Finland. No wonder they're so smug over there.

aries100

October 23rd, 2007, 23:47

Le me re-state this: A game that's rated Mature must be expected to have Mature content in it, be it (green) nipples, strong language (swearing) etc. That's why we have the ESRB, the PEGI, the BBC, and the USK etc. --- to keep our children etc. out of harms way.

As for tv showing violence, I really long and yearn for a good Marilyn Monroe film. She didn't have to stoop to what Britney Spears is doing to look sexy, she just was sexy :) And while we're on TV, in the Kojak and McCloud tv-series back in the 1970's, the cops weren't portrayed as brutes as they often are in series like NYPD and such series. When McCloud was forced to shoot someone, all they did was to reach for their heart and fall down. Today, it seems, people want to see the brains splurging all over the place, and such things. I don't understand why this is so :S

But I do know that the old fashioned movies still are hit with me and other people :) I also don't understand why some many movies are being made about our fears. Every thriller movie in the latest years seem to have been about moving into a house, or meeting strangers or moving into the unknown --- just to have the sum of all your fears come american haunting you. I don't know why this is...

I actually happen to come from the country that set porn free in 1966 and 1969 as the first country in the world. The argument was and still is that the government shall not regulate what content adults are reading in any way. A good sound conservative-liberal argument, I think. However, what Atari does as a business is their own private matter. If Atari wants to cover the green nipples in The Witcher, then by all means, let them do so. There's no chip of my tree, if they do this. In fact, keeping in touch with the Marilyn Monroe tradition, less can sometimes be more. And with that I mean, less nudity, of course. To get back to the Marilyn Monroe vs. Britney Spears analogy, I think people are getting tired of seeing Britney's -ehm- flashings of her unclad bodily parts. I know I am.

Alfred Hitchcock seemed to know this do. There is no power greater than the human imagination. A glimpse of of profile a breast might be more sexy and revealing than seeing the full nude breast. I still think that CD-Project should be able to put whatever content in their game(s) they want to put into them. If Atari then decides to censor (for lack of a better word) their game(s), then so be it.

narpet

October 24th, 2007, 00:09

This thread has gotten so far from the title of "Will you be importing The Witcher?" that I thought I should get a word in...

nipples

Thank you ;)

zakhal

October 24th, 2007, 00:16

Who needs this kind of pressure? I hear they don't have nipples in Finland. No wonder they're so smug over there.

Whats that for?? I find that funny coming from an american - californian even. South park even had their own smug episode just for you!

:) We had high developed censorship during communis, we just decided not continue that.

That might be it. But wait say 20 years. History is made to be forgotten.

Squeek

October 24th, 2007, 00:39

South park even had their own smug episode just for you!South Park isn't meant to be taken seriously, and neither was my post. Sorry, Zakhal. It was just a joke. I'll be serious about nipples from now on.

zakhal

October 24th, 2007, 00:46

South Park isn't meant to be taken seriously, and neither was my post. Sorry, Zakhal. It was just a joke. I'll be serious about nipples from now on.

Youre totally missing the point. This is all just fun and games for me. I have never been serious on these boards.

Squeek

October 24th, 2007, 00:51

Aha! Good. Well, in that case...heh...no, I think I'll quit now while I'm ahead!

Jabberwocky

October 24th, 2007, 01:34

Wow.... Okay....
>Jabberwocky graps a new clip from his belt, loads it, spits sideways... and fires<

1) I wasn't suggesting that I believe school shootings all happen becuase of The Matrix. I was merely pointing out that its influence was debatable - Obviously that was on target.

2) Personally I feel the idea of seeing one violent film or playing one violent video game turning you into a killing monster is absurd, but the cumulative result of seeing hundreds and thousands of killings via games and movies can often be determental. You don't want this one game censored, but what if it is this game that sends someone over the edge? Or at the very least, has a part in their slide towards corruption?

3) Concerning a person with psychological difficulties in the areas of sex and violence (e.g. serial killer), would you want that person to have access to all the sexual and violent entertainment they could get their hands on? According to aries100: "As for games influencing us, I don't think anyone will disagree with this point." So if everyone agrees that entertainment influences us in some way, you are agreeing that serial killers and shootists may be influenced by what they see or interact with. Which brings me to...

4) By claiming that all censorship is bad, and that nothing should be censored, you are ultimately saying that you are in approval of the fact that a mentally disturbed person will have access to any and all forms of entertainment that could influence them in a negative way, and that they should be free to make that choice same as you. WTH is prison for then!?! Maybe we should allow them to make the decision to stay there or not as well! I personally feel that the lives lost to lone gunmen and other psychopaths are worth more than seeing a few nipples on a video game. Again, I say it all has to start somewhere. Sure the parents should be taking an interest in their kids entertainment choices... and regulating them. But how often does that really happen? And are the parents making the right choices to begin with? Some of you have commented that they see no problem with the content of The Witcher and with their kids seeing it. It certainly is your perogative, and I therefore hope you are raising a normal mentally developed youngster. But what about the family raising the potential psychopath? Is it okay for them too? All these deranged killers had mothers too you know!

More nipples and more violence. That's what everyone wants until someone they love is shot down or raped, and then they might change their tune.

I'm just trying to get you all to see that it isn't just about you. Censorship is in place for a very valid reason. How effective it is anyone can guess, but if one life is saved or changed for the better, then isn't it worth it? If you cry "no!" I say you are devoid of normal feelings of goodwill and you have probably played too many violent video games. :smartass:

Zakhary

October 24th, 2007, 01:42

Jabberwocky

October 24th, 2007, 02:11

Mentally disturbed person? So what do those nipples do to them then?
How does a nipple or two (or twelve) influence someone (like a disturbed person)
in a negative way?

Anyone (including a "disturbed person" ) can march into any store and buy ultra-violent, sick, twisted games/films/comics/books or alcohol or a chainsaw or a nice set of cooking knives or a cyberskin penis extension or a "futurotic 4-way arouser" or an extensive DVD-collection of High-Definition german anal-porn.

All true. Which is exactly why I stated "How effective censorship is anyone can guess."

You are suggesting, however, that since someone can get something somewhere, the world should just throw in the towel and let anything go. Would you suggest stocking store shelves with instruction kits on "how to make a car-bomb," just becuase someone somewhere can get a hold of the same on the internet?

As to your question regarding seeing twelve nipples.... I wouldn't know how that affects a disturbed person, because I'm a normal one. But I do know that many convicted serial killers were addicted to porn. That is a documented fact.

Dhruin

October 24th, 2007, 02:19

Plenty of nutjobs have heard voices from God, too. Who's with me to ban all religion?

Squeek

October 24th, 2007, 02:24

Nipples are all fun & games until someone pokes an eye out or becomes a serial killer. A set of twelve would have twelve times the poking power, too. So that could mean they'd be twelve times as likely to turn you into a psycho. Then there's the whole green thing, and who knows how that might affect a normal person (yeah, more sarcasm).

zakhal

October 24th, 2007, 03:00

Lethal Weapon

October 24th, 2007, 03:00

@Jabberwocky

Most psychologists agree that a man's character has already been determined roughly by the age of five or six. Everything that happens since then just adds 'flavour'. It would take really significant, life-changing events to 'wake up' latent behavioral patterns.

To reverse your argument, sex and violence in entertainment often serve as a safe outlet for repressed instincts. Say what if porn were to be banned tomorrow by all countries worldwide? Would you really be surprised if we would then experience a sudden increase in the number of rapes? Maybe for each teen that commits a crime after playing a violent videogame, there are ten others that don't. In this case for the one that did commit the crime, obviously the videogame was not enough to satiate his urges.

Last time I checked porn being banned from major resellers in the USA hasn't stopped it from being one of the most successful industries there (obviously Atari doesn't think something similar could happen with The Witcher). Today's kids are clever enough to hack Pentagon's computers, they can easily have access to all the porn they want as long as they set their mind to. I'm not saying that kids should be granted free access to porn, I'm saying that the whole counter-argument seems to me like pretending more than anything else.

zakhal

October 24th, 2007, 03:19

To reverse your argument, sex and violence in entertainment often serve as a safe outlet for repressed instincts. Say what if porn were to be banned tomorrow by all countries worldwide? Would you really be surprised if we would then experience a sudden increase in the number of rapes?

The egyptian rape riots are a good example. In that country sex is suppressed (which leads to sexual frustration) and there are fasts where you must totally clear your mind of sex for long times and then when the fast ends (first day of Eid) it all comes out like a bomb:

It was the first day of Eid, and a new film was opening downtown. Mobs of males gatherd trying to get in, but when the show was sold out, they decided they will destroy the box office. After accomplishing that, they went on what can only be described as a sexual frenxy: They ran around grabbing any and every girl in sight, whether a niqabi, a Hijabi or uncoverd. Whether egyptian or foreigner. Even pregnant ones.

They grabbed them, molested them, tried to rip their cloths off and rape them, all in front of the police, who didn't do shit. The good people of downtown tried their best to protect the girls. Shop owners would let the girls in and lock the doors, while the mobs tried to break in. Taxi drivers put the girls in the cars while the mobs were trying to break the glass and grab the girls out. It was a disgusting pandamonium of sexual assaults that lasted for 5 houres from 7:30 PM to 12:30 am, and it truns my stomach just to think about it.

http://www.sandmonkey.org/2006/10/30/the-eid-sexual-harassment-incident/

Dez

October 24th, 2007, 03:50

'm just trying to get you all to see that it isn't just about you. Censorship is in place for a very valid reason. How effective it is anyone can guess, but if one life is saved or changed for the better, then isn't it worth it? If you cry "no!" I say you are devoid of normal feelings of goodwill and you have probably played too many violent video games.

So the reason why games must be cencored is because some nutjob somewhere may flip out because of seeing a nipple in a rpg game? Sounds rather ineffective precautionary measure to me. If this nutjob is eager to see nipples, he is more likely to enter a night club where the ammount of nipples will probably make his head explode in 5 seconds! or he could just search porn with google like rest of the humankind ;)

Jabberwocky

October 24th, 2007, 04:31

Nipples and The Matrix have nothing to do with each other, and how anyone made that connection from what I wrote is beyond me. I was talking about censorship in general, as is a lot of other people on this thread, whether that be about sex, violence, or both. Trying to convince me that there would actually be more violence and rapes if those ideas were removed from entertainment is a complete waste of time for me and you. Imo that is as illogical as you seem to think I'm being.

@ Dez - As long as people take the attitude of "how is this one thing going to make a difference?" problems will escalate on any level that reasoning is applied to, whether it be censoring games or global warming.

I weep for the species.

@ Dhruin: You jest about banning religion, but mark my words - It absolutely will happen sooner than you think. :end:

Zakhary

October 24th, 2007, 09:53

You are suggesting, however, that since someone can get something somewhere, the world should just throw in the towel and let anything go. Would you suggest stocking store shelves with instruction kits on "how to make a car-bomb," just becuase someone somewhere can get a hold of the same on the internet?
As to your question regarding seeing twelve nipples.... I wouldn't know how that affects a disturbed person, because I'm a normal one. But I do know that many convicted serial killers were addicted to porn. That is a documented fact.
No, not let anything go. I wast trying to point out the ridiculousness absurdity of censoring nipples when there are games featuring extreme violence like torture, serial killing and mass-killing cops and blowing things up. I'm not saying we should let anything pass. I just don't understand how does a goddamn nipple in a video game harm anyone in this world with all the filth available EVEN to minors.

Plenty of nutjobs have heard voices from God, too. Who's with me to ban all religion?
Me! Me!

@Jabberwocky
Most psychologists agree that a man's character has already been determined roughly by the age of five or six. Everything that happens since then just adds 'flavour'. It would take really significant, life-changing events to 'wake up' latent behavioral patterns.

To reverse your argument, sex and violence in entertainment often serve as a safe outlet for repressed instincts. Say what if porn were to be banned tomorrow by all countries worldwide? Would you really be surprised if we would then experience a sudden increase in the number of rapes? Maybe for each teen that commits a crime after playing a violent videogame, there are ten others that don't. In this case for the one that did commit the crime, obviously the videogame was not enough to satiate his urges.

All very good points.

titus

October 24th, 2007, 11:36

and what about the news? I mean not even games or movies are so violent and obscure as what you hear and see in the news every day.
yes violent games and movies and musiccan have an effect on people, but most of the effect is numbing down feelings but not make people turn into violent beings. There has to be something wrong already and then even other things could have triggered it.
Why don't we sensor the news better? it has a rating. That is enough the rest is up to the person itself or if it is a minor: his parents.

Btw does anyone know wich version will apear in belgium? because I already saw the witcher at game mania folder.

aries100

October 24th, 2007, 14:35

The thing still is this, though: The Witcher are rated 18+ in most of Europe,
and 17+ in the US. In the US this means that a children under the age of 17+ can't buy this game at all. They will need their parents or guardians to buy The Witcher for them.

I agree, however, that not all games, tv-shows, movies or even the news, should be viewed by all children. But I also need to re-state or say again that I do strongly believe that it is the parents responsibility to monitor, watch and supervise their childrens use of the media, from news content on tv over what movies they see to what games they play. And that's why we have game ratings, to help inform parents about games - then they can decide...

Prime Junta

October 24th, 2007, 17:38

4) By claiming that all censorship is bad, and that nothing should be censored, you are ultimately saying that you are in approval of the fact that a mentally disturbed person will have access to any and all forms of entertainment that could influence them in a negative way, and that they should be free to make that choice same as you.

Damn straight.

It would be very simple to reduce the crime rate to zero.

Just throw everybody in jail. Problem solved.

However, I think it's pretty obvious that the solution is worse than the problem.

The same goes for censorship. Yes, the cost of free speech is that, ultimately, some people will die because of it. If I say "Elbonia is bad!" it's quite possible that statistically someone who already really, really hates Elbonia and hears me say it will be tipped over to the point where he'll beat a random Elbonian to death with a tire iron when he bumps into him on the street.

(Try substituting "Iran," "Israel," "America," or "France" for Elbonia and see how the thought sounds, for kicks.)

Does this mean that it should be forbidden to say "Elbonia is bad?"

I don't think so.

Similarly, it's quite possible that someone who's already seriously disturbed will be pushed over the edge by a really bad session of multiplayer Team Fortress 2. Does that mean we should ban Team Fortress 2?

I don't think so.

What we should do is try to do something about the seriously disturbed people once we recognize that they're seriously disturbed. Restricting everybody else's freedoms in order to stop the disturbed people from getting more disturbed is not the right solution.

What do you think?

Prime Junta

October 24th, 2007, 17:44

@ Dez - As long as people take the attitude of "how is this one thing going to make a difference?" problems will escalate on any level that reasoning is applied to, whether it be censoring games or global warming.

Another red herring. Think of what we're doing here is cost/benefit analysis. What we *should* be asking is:

1. What are the (social) costs of censorship?
2. What are the (social) benefits of censorship?
3. Can we think of (socially) less expensive ways of getting the same (or greater) (social) benefits?

I can think of many, many cheaper and more effective ways to e.g. reduce violent and/or sexual crimes than censorship. Hell, many of them are in use -- violent crime rates are *falling,* not rising, in most of the industrialized world.

txa1265

October 24th, 2007, 18:13

Does this mean that it should be forbidden to say "Elbonia is bad?"
But ... but ... but ... think of the MUD!??!?!

;)

I completely agree. The only 'censorship' should be when the expression of free speech crosses over into potential *direct* physical harm to others - for example, making threats such as running into a crowded area and saying "I have a gun and I'm going to start shooting".

Expressing unpopular ideas should be *protected* as vehemently as crimes are prosecuted, in my opinion.

dteowner

October 24th, 2007, 19:15

The same goes for censorship. Yes, the cost of free speech is that, ultimately, some people will die because of it. If I say "Elbonia is bad!" it's quite possible that statistically someone who already really, really hates Elbonia and hears me say it will be tipped over to the point where he'll beat a random Elbonian to death with a tire iron when he bumps into him on the street.

(Try substituting "Iran," "Israel," "America," or "France" for Elbonia and see how the thought sounds, for kicks.)Yeah, but even the French hate the French, so that one gets special permission. ;)

Really, this comes down to whether we need to legislate parental responsibility in order to make it happen across the board. We generally seem to agree that the first line of defense against budding nutjobs (and, to a lesser level of agreement, against general filth) should be parental involvement. Now, it seems Jabberwocky is convinced that many parents have shirked the job of raising their children (and 5 minutes in any nearby Chuck E Cheese should convince anyone that Jabberwocky's on to something there). It then follows that all of us are put at risk by that ineptitude. The next leap would be that government, tasked to protect society as a whole, would be obligated to defend its citizens against the threat. Since it's not practical for government to control individuals, the next alternative would be to try to limit situations that would call for parental involvement--censorship.

Jabberwocky

October 24th, 2007, 20:37

dte, you are a genious. Not that I think you are agreeing with me, but the fact that you actually understand my approach to the whole topic.

I'm only delving into the issue of censorship as a whole. I'm not trying to state what I think should and shouldn't be censored. You want nipples (I have to throw that word in here to stay on topic :;)) that's fine. I'm not judging you for it. I will be playing the Witcher too, and if the USA allowed nipples to be in there then I would play that version. But the whole idea of regulating society based solely on parental leadership is woefully oblivious to the real state of the world.

aries100

October 24th, 2007, 20:54

I think I need to remind you all that in the UK as well as in Germany, it is forbidden by LAW to sell a 16+ or 18+ game to any person under the age of 16+ or 18+ . If you do anyway, you can get prosecuted for this.

Technically, why the ESRB or PEGI doesn't have legislation behind them to back them up doing what UK or Germany is doing re: rating games and children etc. in theory a 5 year old could buy GTA or Bioshock. Im pretty sure that 99% of Danish game stor owners would tell them they weren't old enough for this game or they needed to get another game or to get their mother or father. In many stores in the US, like Wal-Mart etc. the story policy would be to keep the game from being sold to people under the age of seventeenn. Or to put it another way: Only people old enough can buy the game, meaning that only people from age 17 and up, are able to buy the game. The industry is regulating itself, there's really no need for censorship.

As for the nipples in The Witcher, I don't care about this. I care more about the sex cards of which I have seen two, I believe, over at the rpgcodex. It may be realistic and in tune with the books, but I don't mind that they will be gone in the US version. If they had been left in the US version, the game most definetely would have gotten an AO rating, which means that it couldn't get sold at game stores at all. I just hope there's a good story reason for the sex card mini-game? to be in the Witcher...

While we're on this subject. When I last visisted my Blockbuster Video & Game store, my eye got two young buys aged 10-12, I think. Naturally, I thought thery were going to buy a very violent game, but no, they were going to buy -The SIMS2, I think. This just goes to show that you have to question everything - even the validity of your own prejudices.

Squeek

October 24th, 2007, 21:04

I will be playing the Witcher too, and if the USA allowed nipples to be in there then I would play that version.The US does allow nipples. Ratings aren't censorship; they're tools for parents. Businesses are mindful of them and how they affect sales, and that's really what we're talking about here, aren't we?

All kidding aside, my wife works at a school with kids ages four through fourteen and sees all kinds of parents. I coach flag football over there sometimes, and so I get some exposure too. The only parents anyone ever shakes their heads over are the ones who allow their children to watch any kind of movie or play any kind of game they want.

magerette

October 24th, 2007, 22:39

I'm only delving into the issue of censorship as a whole. I'm not trying to state what I think should and shouldn't be censored.... But the whole idea of regulating society based solely on parental leadership is woefully oblivious to the real state of the world.

I can see your point, Jabberwocky. The state of the world (at least from the viewpoint of homo sapiens) is a reflection of the state of human beings. Without laws and rules, there would be chaos. Society evolves tools to deal with man's counter-social impulses out of necessity, and viewed from that standpoint, censorship is part of the desire to protect the innocent.

Unfortunately, it's also a tool for manipulation and oppression. It's like everything else, a lot depends on the context. My personal tendencies are to allow for as much individual freedom as possible because once the limits start, they snowball.

AFA parental leadership, there are a lot of forces that shape people into who they are; parental care, example and involvement are some of the primary ones. Yes, there's plenty of peer shaping and social and cultural influence as well, but they don't use the term "formative years" without reason. Your authority figures as a child have the most opportunity to program your mind into positive or negative channels.

If they aren't there to shape you for whatever reason, then the outside forces become substitutes, one of the reasons why gangs are so attractive to kids from dysfunctional families. You need someone to belong to and show you how to make choices. I agree it shouldn't be up to the media, whose primary concern is to produce more consumers.

But to me, removing visual stimuli like violence in TV and games doesn't really address the issue of why a person becomes violent. The Victorian era was one of the most outwardly repressive and controlling sexually and morally ever, but Jack the Ripper found his outlet, and god knows how many wars, murders, and rapes went on. They just didn't have the means to spread the news instantaneously through TV and the internet to and from all areas of the world, magnifying things in the process as we do today.

As I've said, I grew up in an era of censorship, banned books and McCarthyism, and I don't think the loosening of those particular reins is the reason we see more incidences of violent and other aberrant behaviour. IMO, I think we see more violence not because there actually *is* more violence pound for pound, but because a.) there are now a lot of people whose job it is to tell us all about it, and b.) because the population of the earth has vastly increased in our lifetimes and there are just a lot more crazy people out there. :)

Hey, a bit simplistic, but I was just a horticulture major ;)

And just to be on topic for a moment, my UK import of the Witcher is now processing!!:boogie:

dteowner

October 24th, 2007, 23:05

2 minute minor to magerette for not using the word "nipples" in her post.

@Jabberwocky: Finally, someone notices... Wile E Coyote, Soooooooper Genius. I just might have to change my avatar. I agree with your analysis of the situation, but I'm not ready to let absentee parents off the hook, particularly if that involves the government. I really work hard at being a parent, and I want all the other parents to share in my misery. We'll see how successful I was in 10-15 years. Of course, if one of the Wild Dogs turns out to be an ax murderer, we'll blame that on Mrs dte's influence. ;)

Jabberwocky

October 24th, 2007, 23:30

2 minute minor to magerette for not using the word "nipples" in her post....

We'll see how successful I was in 10-15 years. Of course, if one of the Wild Dogs turns out to be an ax murderer, we'll blame that on Mrs dte's influence. ;)

:lol:

oh wait I almost forgot:... Nipples!

Dhruin

October 25th, 2007, 02:15

Let's all hope the game is as good as some of the conversation around it.

Nipples!

zakhal

October 25th, 2007, 02:27

While we're on this subject. When I last visisted my Blockbuster Video & Game store, my eye got two young buys aged 10-12, I think. Naturally, I thought thery were going to buy a very violent game, but no, they were going to buy -The SIMS2, I think. This just goes to show that you have to question everything - even the validity of your own prejudices.

http://images.tomshardware.com/2005/08/06/getting_naked/sims2.jpg

Thers a whole collection of skins and patches that make witcher look lame in comparison.

Melvil

October 25th, 2007, 04:22

not that it matters, but that link is dead, for me at least

dteowner

October 25th, 2007, 05:29

StackSmasher

October 25th, 2007, 06:19

...
Similarly, it's quite possible that someone who's already seriously disturbed will be pushed over the edge by a really bad session of multiplayer Team Fortress 2. Does that mean we should ban Team Fortress 2?

I don't think so.

What we should do is try to do something about the seriously disturbed people once we recognize that they're seriously disturbed. Restricting everybody else's freedoms in order to stop the disturbed people from getting more disturbed is not the right solution.

What do you think?

I couldn't agree more. Restricting freedoms to provide some false pretense of safety or security is not a good thing. Personal responsibility and accountability are good things.

zakhal

October 25th, 2007, 10:18

Yep, dead for me too. I'm guessing it's anatomically correct Johnny Holmes and Jenna Jameson skins for Sims2, demonstrating that even the most innocent game can be corrupted by naughty children badly in need of a little corporal punishment.

Sims is so good that playboy actually made a porn version of it called the: "the mansion". Playboy is infact pushing for games industry. They even have game related nude models or somthing.

chamr

October 25th, 2007, 23:22

@Jabber: From where I'm sitting, you're now engaging in the well-worn tactic of subtly changing your position. I objected to your claim that violent media were, in some cases, a direct and primary cause of criminally violent behavior, which I called horse-pucky on. There is no proof that this is true. Never has been. Your example of the fascination some deviants have with porn is a common, backwards-logic fallacy. You're trying to create a causal relationship from a circumstance. Worse, it creates a dangerous diversion that takes attention and energy away from the real challenge: recognizing and dealing effectively with people that become increasingly disconnected from their families and communities until they are in danger of crossing the line into sociopathic behavior, before they cross that line.

Now you're saying that we're all madly calling for a society that enforces no restrictions or regulations on itself. Don't be ridiculous. Of course there is an obligation to provide for the common good and safety. For instance, I see nothing wrong with game ratings. In fact, they are NOT censorship, but a good way for governments to help their people make better judgments about what is and is not appropriate for their children. But this was not your original point. You were not defending the rating system. You were saying that less violent media is better since it sometimes causes criminal violence. And that, I'm afraid, is completely unsubstantiated nonsense.

Jabberwocky

October 26th, 2007, 07:07

I'm sorry that you want to continue chamr, because I for one am done with this discussion. I have not backpedaled, nor do I intend to. I don't understand how you can say the idea that less violent media is better since it.... wait... what I think you meant to say regarding my stand, was that less violent media is better since it sometimes may curtail criminal violence. Yes, that's what I believe, and I don't understand how anyone can believe that is unsubstantiated nonsense? Numerous psychological experiments have proven the effects of outside influences on thought patterns and decision making. For instance there was an experiment on the influence of music on customers' decisions to purchase certain brands of wine. When a store played German music, customers (no doubt oblivious to the influence) purchased German wine, when French music played, they followed suit with French wine.

The type of proof you evidentally are looking for doesn't exist, because we can't read peoples' minds! Sure there is no way to know all of the ins and outs of a killer's brain and what makes him tick, but if it has been documented and observed that certain influences cause certain reactions (e.g. the wine experiment), what part about this is so hard for you to believe?

As far as the ratings system goes, I think it's total bunk. I gaurantee it doesn't make any difference whatsoever to 99.9% of adult gamers, and barely makes a difference to "discerning parents." And that goes back to the whole 'parents as mentors' idea. While there are diligent parents fulfilling their roles well, like dte no doubt, I have also seen plenty of children in R rated movies, and plenty of children renting R rated videos, and buying M rated games with their parents. Heck, we buy 'em toy guns when they're barely old enough to walk and teach 'em how to shoot the 'bad guys'! Sure it's the parents responsibility, and their right to decide what's best for their children, but considering what i believe to be compelling evidence that these things can can influence children negatively, I think that it puts society at greater risk than if these things were simply not available. Do I want to play the Witcher? Sure! Do I think the world would be a safer place without it and 500,000 other violent games out there? YES.

See what you made me do? And I was so ready to quit...

I said good day!

BTW... Where's Codex Mo been? Isn't this sort of discussion right up his alley?

Squeek

October 26th, 2007, 07:12

As far as the ratings system goes, I think it's total bunk. I gaurantee it doesn't make any difference whatsoever to 99.9% of adult gamers, and barely makes a difference to "discerning parents."The folks who make The Witcher seem to think the ratings matter. Isn't that why they're adjusting the content?

JDR13

October 26th, 2007, 08:33

I agree about it not making a difference to the majority of adult gamers though. Seriously, how often do you consciously look at a games parental rating?

Lethal Weapon

October 26th, 2007, 09:16

When a store played German music, customers (no doubt oblivious to the influence) purchased German wine, when French music played, they followed suit with French wine.

Poor example, we're not exactly talking about wine here. And AFAIK The Witcher is Polish.

The type of proof you evidentally are looking for doesn't exist, because we can't read peoples' minds!

Well we're not exactly in the dark either. Phsychology has made major advances in the last 100 years. Instead of playing amateur psychologist yourself maybe you should ask some experts and listen what they have to say.

Sure there is no way to know all of the ins and outs of a killer's brain and what makes him tick...

Certainly not violent videogames/movies. Someone who is stimulated into committing a crime after playing a videogame/watching a movie is equally likely to be stimulated by any of 1,000,000 other daily perceptions, be as simple as a provocatively dressed lady or you looking at him the wrong way or as complex as studying the biographies of certain personalities in history books. As chamr already pointed out those are symptoms, not the cause.

According to your logic, we should immediately ban 'The Silence of the Lambs'. Instead we awarded it with 5 Oscars and 34 other prizes.

Do I think the world would be a safer place without it and 500,000 other violent games out there? YES.

In fact totalitarian regimes with strict censorship and a near-zero crime rate have been known to exist. The problem is that when they eventually explode, the body count is so high that you can't justify any of the sacrifices made.

As to what would make the world a safer place? IMHO better educated people would.

I weep for the species.

Sure.

Zaleukos

October 26th, 2007, 15:03

Jabber: Ratings mattered for me as a kid, as I knew that I might get something with too complex mechanics if I went for something recommended for those five years older than me:p So ratings can be a helpful guideline if grounded in reality...

In fact totalitarian regimes with strict censorship and a near-zero crime rate have been known to exist. The problem is that when they eventually explode, the body count is so high that you can't justify any of the sacrifices made..

Couldnt agree more. Not only that, but one could argue that such regimes are committing acts against the citizens that would be criminal if other citizens were the perpetrators, like locking up or shooting people who are in disagreement.

chamr

October 27th, 2007, 00:36

I'm sorry that you want to continue chamr, because I for one am done with this discussion.

Sorry. Wasn't aware of that. I'll make this my last post then...

Numerous psychological experiments have proven the effects of outside influences on thought patterns and decision making. For instance there was an experiment on the influence of music on customers' decisions to purchase certain brands of wine. When a store played German music, customers (no doubt oblivious to the influence) purchased German wine, when French music played, they followed suit with French wine.

Influence is not cause. You claimed cause in the beginning. Now you claim simple influence. A pretty significant shift in your position.

The type of proof you evidentally are looking for doesn't exist, because we can't read peoples' minds! Sure there is no way to know all of the ins and outs of a killer's brain and what makes him tick, but if it has been documented and observed that certain influences cause certain reactions (e.g. the wine experiment), what part about this is so hard for you to believe?

Of course I believe in the concept of influence. See my previous post on cause. And, by the way, there is plenty of proof in that there have been many studies on causal relationships in violent behavior, and not one has found that violent media is a direct or primary cause for criminally violent behavior. While absence of proof is not necessarily a proof in itself, I believe with the amount of research on the subject done at this point, we can be reasonably assured that there is no, direct causal link from violent mediat to criminally violent behavior.

... and barely makes a difference to "discerning parents." And that goes back to the whole 'parents as mentors' idea. While there are diligent parents fulfilling their roles well, like dte no doubt, I have also seen plenty of children in R rated movies, and plenty of children renting R rated videos, and buying M rated games with their parents. Heck, we buy 'em toy guns when they're barely old enough to walk and teach 'em how to shoot the 'bad guys'!

This is gross overstatement. What evidence, beyond your own, anecdotal variety, can you point to that says the rating systems is failure in helping parents make decisions on which media are appropriate for their children? And are you suggesting that because you've seen children in an R-rated movie that this means most parents are abdicating their responsibilities? Or even a significant number?

Sure it's the parents responsibility, and their right to decide what's best for their children, but considering what i believe to be compelling evidence that these things can can influence children negatively, I think that it puts society at greater risk than if these things were simply not available.
Again, having a negative influence on children and putting society at large in greater danger is a huge leap to make. Huge.

Do I want to play the Witcher? Sure! Do I think the world would be a safer place without it and 500,000 other violent games out there? YES.
The government-driven effort to censor in any broad manner is doomed to fail, as so many attempts in the past should instruct us. It is impossible for a government to effectively draw the line. How much is too much? How much is too little? Who decides?

I said good day!
I said, GOOD DAY! ahh.... I LOVE that movie.... :)

Jabberwocky

October 28th, 2007, 04:45

Poor example, we're not exactly talking about wine here. And AFAIK The Witcher is Polish.

You're right, I should have referenced an experiment that didn't just use audible influences, but SIGHT as well, since we are talking about a game that you see hear, and interact with. I'm sure that would be much less influencing than just hearing music, don't you? :rolleyes:

And I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were so literal minded so as to not understand that I was relating a real world experiment that happened to involve German and French wines, and is in no way associated with the make-believe world of The Witcher. But if it makes you feel better we can change it to Polish wine, 'kay?

Jabberwocky

October 28th, 2007, 05:30

Influence is not cause. You claimed cause in the beginning. Now you claim simple influence. A pretty significant shift in your position.

If that's what you are concluding, then I guess I really didn't make myself clear in previous posts. I am and have always been talking about influence(s). Perhaps what you are referring regarding my posts, is that I believe that all of these influences, whatever they may be, can eventually add up to an action, and therefore those influences become a 'cause.' Perhaps there can't be any single distinguishing cause psychologically identified, but everything adds up.

Take a person that gives in to road rage and pulls a gun on the other driver involved. Did that one incident make him do that? Probably not, it may have been the 15 other drivers that cut him off that morning, maybe he just got fired, maybe etc.... Those are all events, or 'things', that influenced his irrational behaviour. What I am suggesting is that playing a game in which a person acts out violence could also be one of those influences, and seems likely to me given that since such a game invariably triggers aggressive responses. Now of course I agree that a person would have to have psychological troubles to begin with to do something that stupid, or 'crazy' if you will, and I've said that all along. But maybe he wouldn't have been pushed over that fragile limit if he hadn't already gotten used to pulling guns out in a fantasy world. Of course such a piece of the causal equation is immeasurable, I understand that. I'm just trying to get you to see that it is possible.

Of course I believe in the concept of influence. See my previous post on cause. And, by the way, there is plenty of proof in that there have been many studies on causal relationships in violent behavior, and not one has found that violent media is a direct or primary cause for criminally violent behavior. While absence of proof is not necessarily a proof in itself, I believe with the amount of research on the subject done at this point, we can be reasonably assured that there is no, direct causal link from violent mediat to criminally violent behavior.

And again, I think that's where our misunderstanding lies... I never intended to sound like I was asserting that little johnny plays a bad video game and instantly has the urge to shoot somebody.

This is gross overstatement. What evidence, beyond your own, anecdotal variety, can you point to that says the rating systems is failure in helping parents make decisions on which media are appropriate for their children? And are you suggesting that because you've seen children in an R-rated movie that this means most parents are abdicating their responsibilities? Or even a significant number?:)

Of course I qualified my "gross overstatement" by prefacing it with the phrase "I think." And yes, I stand by that statement concerning parents. I don't mean to insult any parents here or anyone who feels their parents did a good job in raising them.. but I sincerely do feel that a significant number of parents are not doing a good job in raising children to become responsible adults. My feelings are not based on a single event or observation like you are suggesting.

Again, having a negative influence on children and putting society at large in greater danger is a huge leap to make. Huge.

What exactly do you think makes up "society at large"? Is "society at large" a mass of people who were never children once and who were never exposed to harmful influence?

And I think the key word here is "greater". I agree - greater, not great. I never (thought) I implied that the world was going to implode because of too many video games.

The government-driven effort to censor in any broad manner is doomed to fail, as so many attempts in the past should instruct us. It is impossible for a government to effectively draw the line. How much is too much? How much is too little? Who decides?

I couldn't agree more, but unlike you (apparently) I feel that the world situation is getting worse, and that's the reason I said earlier "I weep for the species."

I've tried to be as clear as possible in this post on where I stand. I don't expect you or anyone else to agree, as I can't fathom your reasoning and you can't fathom mine. but there's no need for insults, or for this particular conversation to continue any longer. I hope that any negative feelings from this thread will not spill over into others. :)

cutterjohn

October 30th, 2007, 18:33

As I mentioned in a reply in the thread at the codex, I'll be importing the UK version myself as I have no interest whatsoever in fundamentalist christian religious thumper nutcase censoring, especially if the only things that they are going to bother to censor are TV, radio, movies, and games while ignoring all other forms of media.

EDIT:
Decided to edit this a little further as to specifics, I HIGHLY doubt that they just censored nipples, as I fully expect any text/dialog/etc. that would also be objectionable to that same fascist group will also be censored. Hell, if I spoke polish, I'd order the Polish version just to make sure that I got the REALLY full game, as also, on the codex thread, there was mention that the Polish version apparently has additional text/dialog relating to the books and implied that they were cut from other versions.

Damned thumpers are every bit as bad as psychotic muslims.

EDIT2:
OK, the censorship comment MAY be off as this is not censorship by any sort of legsilative decree or ratings board governing but it IS willing censorship by the publisher to achieve a particular rating, and so ends up overall in the gaming community as a de facto censorship policy to appease the fundamentalist christian demographic.

Zima:
Catholicism, remember ALL things in moderation. Catholicism has ALWAYS been pretty liberal for a large organized religion, well wrt most things although they do have persnickety and annoying stands based in their morality on some endeavors.