Single Protaganists in RPG's?

[Lucky Day]

Rina brought up her complaint of a forced male protagonist in Eschalon. Similar complaints have been recently about the Witcher for a variety of reasons. Other games have this such as Tomb Raider.

Is it sexist? Does it show a lack of poor game design?

The argument has been made that the characters are designed for the story in mind but some players don't like the paths they inevitably forced to make. They argue that this kind of design is inflexible.

The biggest complaint is that female gamers are underrepresented and when women are portrayed its as some sort of male fantasy made with triangles.

Selling to 50% of the market has often been hit and miss over the years with little to show other than Barbie Makeover. However when it has been a success it can be a bonanza for the devs starting with Ms Pac Man and more recently (arguably) with the iMac, iPod, and Dance Dance Revolution.

[dteowner]

I guess I don't really invest myself in my avatar as much as some players, so it's easy for me to play females or males. Half the time, I think the deciding factors for me are the voice and the portrait (and no, that doesn't mean I aim for the chainmail bikini). In Wiz8 for example, there are a few female voice/portrait/class combos that "fit" for me, so I tend to have females in my party with those combos. From the other angle, I guess I don't feel limited if I only get one gender to pick from.

[curiously undead]

well plenty of games that do give you the option can actually be more sexist. i'd much rather play a good pregen female character like april ryan (though not an rpg) than have the option to play a build it yourself character with no core personality. but you are right there are very few pregen characters in rpgs that are female.

this would be a good time to point out though that deus ex 2 has a lovely female character you can play as that is quite different from playing as the male alex:)
one actually feels like playing a male alex and the other a female, not just some neutered lines read by an uninthused voice actor.

there's actually quite a number of adventure games that have female protagonists, partially because those games appeal to those not in the mood to start a body count. my favourite genre is actually a blend of adventure/rpg and i personally think sinces those games are heavily story and dialog based that having more than a pregen character makes in depth story telling impossible.

[Gallifrey]

For me the issue doesn't come down to a character's gender really. I'm just as happy to play Tomb Raider as, oh, Planescape Torment (yes, vastly different games I know, but I'm not talking about gameplay here). If the fixed character is there to facilitate specific story-telling then fine, although I will admit that a game with a fixed character will diminish my initial interest in the game. I do by far prefer to create my own characters, if only because different builds offer different ways to get through the adventure, and I do enjoy coming up with my own concepts.
However, a fixed character usually allows far greater character-game interaction and connection, so that's a plus.

Ultimately it comes down to how well, or not so well, that fixed character is integrated into the game. If it's an RPG, allow me to build that character as I see fit. If it's an action game, I could really care less.

[Arma]

I personally prefer to play a game with a fixed character - in the likes of Gothic, Eshcalon, etc, rather than play a game with loads of character creation options - like NWN2, and it seems to have little to none impact on the story. Or anywhere else.

[Jaz]

In real (p&P) RPGs, I can look back on a couple of horrible gaming moments when it comes to pregenerated characters (like in those, erm, fantastic AD&D Dragonlance modules). In p&p RPGs, the players ultimately make the story (or the GM succeeds at keeping up the illusion of freedom) so I really do care about playing my own character. Which most of the time (75%) is male.

While I can get really immersed in a computer game and suffer with a pre-generated hero or heroine, I still like to choose my character's looks, gender included. So if a game offers more than one version of the protagonist or a host of protagonists I can choose from (or at least has a paperdoll), it's a tiny plus for said game. I don't mind playing Gothic's male hero, though I would have loved to be able to choose his looks: while his gender was important (at least in G1), his looks weren't important for the story. In Quake 2, I loved the fact that you could play as a female, and I was really sore when they ditched that option for Q4... but not because I felt restricted by the preset gender (I always pick the character whose looks I prefer regardless of gender), I just felt they prevented me from continuing 'my' game.

In one of the Atari 2600 games, you could choose between a boy and a girl who went out to save their girlfriend/boyfriend from a vampire. This was the first game I remember where I could pick my character's gender, which was nice to have.

[Corwin]

Matters little to me, I've played both. Kult forced you to play as a female, Gothic as a male and I enjoyed both games immensely. While I obviously play a male more realistically, it can be fun to play as a female sometimes. I have a couple of female NWN chars, and like Dte, I always use a mixed party in games like Wiz 8 or M&M.

[SleepingDog]

Like Corwin it doesn't really matter to me though I have a preference to play male. It's nice to the choice but I prefer a really good story with excellent gameplay.

[MasterLich]

It would be easy to say that it doesn't matter, but if I would almost always have to play a female character in games I don't think I would consider it fun anymore (I'm male). So I'm actually surprised there is no more criticism from the women's side on this matter. Think about the keywords 'fun' and 'sometimes' in Corwin's post above.

[SleepingDog]

I think that life is full of trade-offs. Yes I would like the perfect game but I know that is very unlikely so I accept that I will not get it. If I was mega-rich perhaps I would commission my own game but I'm not. So gender isn't the deciding factor (and after all it's suppose to be role playing).

In my perfect game I agree that gender would be selectable.

[JDR13]

In one of the Atari 2600 games, you could choose between a boy and a girl who went out to save their girlfriend/boyfriend from a vampire. This was the first game I remember where I could pick my character's gender, which was nice to have.

I know exactly what game you're refering to, I had that game as well.

.....wish I could remember the name....

[Sorcha Ravenlock]

In adventure games and games like Tomb Raider I'm fine playing whatever sex the game has me playing, it's like watching a movie or reading a book only then with interactive bits.

In my RPGs I want to play the character I want to play, make my own story so to speak within the limits of the game. I can honestly say I have never completed an RPG that made me play a male character. I just cannot get into an RPG the way I do when I have a choice.
I suppose it is because I tend to project myself on the main character, I could never play the evil side in RPGs that allow that either. Both playing a character of opposite gender or alignment just is no fun to me, and I've stopped trying to force myself to do so a long time ago just because people say I'm missing out. :)

So gender choice is definitely an important thing for me. As a matter of fact, the more choices the better. Give me a chance to customise looks, race, class, gender, voice, hairstyle, piercings, tattoos and earrings, and so on, and I'm a happy girl :D
(of course that is just the beginning, the game has to be fun to play as well, but if I already get turned off a game at character creation (or lack there off) there is no hope I'll get immersed as much as I do with games where I have the choice).

[GothicGothicness]

It is almost no point in trying to change the mind of a true feminist they are both unreasonable and blind. In Sweden everything should be equal... so now the haircut for male and female has to cost the same or it is discrimination... nevermind that cutting a female's hair takes twice as long on average!

It is equally stupid to pick on games that doesn't allow you to play both as male and female. If it is a generic RPG without many story-elements ok, there complaint can be acceptable. But if the RPG has a story predefined for a specific personality it is just like picking down on Harry Potter because the main character is not female... thus for any production either a lot of males or females most complain and boycott the product.

[vanedor]

Agreed with GothicGothicness.

Playing a rpg where the character, the «class» is pregenerated tend to offer the best roleplaying experience. Many of the best NWN SP modules are designed around a specific character. Else, it's too much to support. What if the player is a female dark gnome? It's pretty hard to create a game based around this unless it's specifically designed for a female dark gnome.

[Benedict]

I wonder what the gender split among people who write for computer games is . . . on the assumption that they're mostly male geeks it's probably a good thing that we don't have more female protagonists in computer games as they'd probably end up being rather unconvincing female characters. Just think how cringe makingly painful most attempts to work some kind of female love interest into role playing games have been and then imagine it being that convincing for the whole of the game

Anyway, different things for different situations. A well fleshed out character properly integrated into the plot is great. An open ended ability to define your characters is great, although more for party games as I find that if I'm doing a single player game I end up tending towards some kind of an all rounder, even if they've got some specialties.

[vanedor]

I wonder what the gender split among people who write for computer games is . . . on the assumption that they're mostly male geeks it's probably a good thing that we don't have more female protagonists in computer games as they'd probably end up being rather unconvincing female characters.

I'm not so sure about this. From what I have seen on the Dragon Age forum for example, it seems to me that quite a few of the professional writers hired for this game are women.

But personally, it's just that at its core, I find that a game with a medieval setting where genders are equal feels silly. Come on, beside Joan of Arc and a few minor exceptions, women have always been considered as negligeable in term of strength in medieval/antiquity time. Just doing the opposite for the very modern principle of politically correctness and gender equality... I'm not sure how to describe this but it seems to destroy how much I can get into the game setting.

For some games it's not a big deal, but in a rpg where the story is something very important... well...

[Squeek]

It's better if you're given that option, I think. Especially if it makes a difference, even if it's just an occasional little thing.

Recently I replayed IWD with a female paladin leading the party. There were a few moments with unique dialogue pertaining both to her paladin status and her obvious hotness. I was entertained by that, and it caused me to gain a higher opinion of the game.

[magerette]

To some extent I agree with vanedor, in that if a female is adopting a central role in a realistic medieval setting, it shouldn't be out of an artificial political correctness. She should have a very specific background (as in Joan of Arc, Catherine de Medici, Elinor of Aquitaine, the Lady in the Lake, etc) that makes it believable--unless, of course, it's set in a fantasy world, where they certainly might have a different evolution of male-female stereotypes. :)

Which brings me to the idea of fantasy, which is certainly a hefty segment of what constitutes the appeal of role-playing. It's all a fantasy, and you should get to be what you want--if you can. But just picking a female character often doesn't really mean a whole lot.

As an example, let's take Bioware's early rpgs. Do you have a choice of gender -yes. Is it meaningful? Hard to say--but because their games succeed in other role-playing aspects, you don't really notice that your female character is probably going to play just like your male character. That's the strength of a well-imagined gameworld and a huge variety of character customizations and skills. Looked at differently, maybe it's also merely the ultimate in political correctness.

Of all the rpg's I've played, the only one I can think of atm where I appreciated the pre-generated female characters and felt their behaviour and personalities were plausible was one where I played a pre-generated male character. :) (Planescape:Torment.)

Frankly, much as I prefer to play as a female when possible, I think the gender of an avatar is mainly cosmetic. If picking a female avatar results in different story events, dialogue and experience, then it's significant; however very rarely is this the case. It would be nice someday to see a well-crafted rpg with a believable female protagonist, but right now I'm happy if I can just play a well-crafted rpg. :)

[Jaz]

I know exactly what game you're refering to, I had that game as well.

.....wish I could remember the name....
Now I remember, it was Ghost Manor! It was half of the only Xonox Double Ender I had, the other half was Spike's Peak.

[JDR13]

Now I remember, it was Ghost Manor! It was half of the only Xonox Double Ender I had, the other half was Spike's Peak.


Yes! I knew it had "mansion" or "manor" in the title, and I remember Spike's Peak now as well.


Here you go....
http://www.atariguide.com/4/472.htm


http://www.atariguide.com/4/476.htm

[Jaz]

Thank you! Now I know what they looked like in color :). Back then, I had a black&white TV set... and while my 2600 is still functional *and* I have an emulator somewhere, I haven't played either of these games since the late Eighties.

[xSamhainx]

I play different sexes in totally different ways. My male characters are extensions of myself. Perhaps it's my paternal instinct or something, but my female RPG characters are more daughter-like to me in a way, like I'm some fatherly deity guiding them and caring for them. It's strange.

I dont think I can ever post without me then reading, and wanting to either correct something grammatically or whatever a minute or two later, or add something. I'll edit a one-sentence post. I mean, like every post. It's strange, maybe I just type too fast or something. I never get everything out the first time, and I dont want to double post either. Ive been doing this a long time, youd think I'd have it down by now, ya know.

I might drink too much caffiene

edit- HA! SEE?

[magerette]

I like the picture of you tenderly caring for your female toons, Sammy. Didn't you have a Wood Elf in Sacred? Now I'm picturing her being guarded by her huge, intimidating tiger mount in Sacred 2. :)

[xSamhainx]

Yes! Foaming Squirrel (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-3/668811/FoamingSquirrel03.gif), the fearless Wood Elf! I wanted a tribal and woodsy name for her, yet unexpectedly fearsome. What could be more unexpectedly fearsome than a raging squirrel?? They let their guard down, and BAM it's all over! ='.'=

I was using Foaming Squirrel long before that web cartoon thing too, btw, it was one of my favorite deathmatch names. I oughtta sue him for copyright infringement or something. I can never use that name again without someone accusing me of ripping off this "Foamy" joker. Pisses me off!

[Zaleukos]

Rina brought up her complaint of a forced male protagonist in Eschalon. Similar complaints have been recently about the Witcher for a variety of reasons. Other games have this such as Tomb Raider.

Is it sexist? Does it show a lack of poor game design?

Having a more narrowly defined protagonist makes plot writing easier, and isnt in itself a sign of sexism.

The argument has been made that the characters are designed for the story in mind but some players don't like the paths they inevitably forced to make. They argue that this kind of design is inflexible.


The biggest complaint is that female gamers are underrepresented and when women are portrayed its as some sort of male fantasy made with triangles.

Complaints about underrepresentation of certain character types (be it women, Asians, or Africans) is often rather irrelevant and stems from modern PC conceptions of what a world should be like. I for instance recall (rare, but they happened) complaints about Medieval II Total not featuring female generals or the like.

The latter argument has a lot more merit. Chainmail bikinis and Lara Croft's present in gaming are undoubtedly sexist. And I think that is rather unsurprising, given that historically the vast majority of the games with such artwork (including PnP RPGs) have been a pastime of late teenage boys. The only long term solution is to bring more female players on board.

[15th]

I'm not bothered by no choice in gender. And I don't see it the least bit sexist either, what about race, sexual orientation, and belief? A lack of an option does not equal discrimination.
I have no issue playing as any female character, though do tend to disregard those where a certian area contains a high and unrealistic polycount.

With a party of characters, I usually have it mixed 50-50.

But after reading this, it's come to my attention that I have hardly ever played a female character when given the choice. Most of the time I select male and the portrate that nears a guy with a simmilar haircut to my own.
The possibility that i've missed out on a number of choices and options would have me return to something, if only the time was avaliable.

[Cm]

I would have liked to have the choice in both the witcher and Two Worlds of selecting a female. Can you imagine the dialogue in The Witcher? lol Even in NWN my visits to the ladies of the night were funny at best, or just stopped dead. I do see how it would create problems for the devs but it would be nice to see a few more games out that have the option.
Maybe that would be a good addon for one of them..............The Witcher, change your sex and see what Visima has to offer now! :lol:

[HiddenX]

In party games I play balanced 50:50 male/female groups.

In single player games I play 70:30 male/female characters.
male: mostly sword fighter or cleric
female: mostly rogue, ranger or druid

I like some games that are forcing me to play a female - for example:

The Longest Journey
A dance with rogues (NWN 1-Mod)
Beyond Good and Evil
Noone Lives Forever 1+2

[Cm]

Well I am usually a sword wielding fighter in all games I play, though I have played a few casters in NWN. I prefer to hit them first however and ask questions later. And I always play a female when I can. ;)

[Dhruin]

Choice is always good where possible, so I would prefer as many options as feasible or makes sense. That said, sometimes a developer has resource restrictions or story conceits and these are reasonable things; both developer and player need to accept some portion of the market will be lost with these decisions.

I cannot, however, see the lack of a female protagonist as remotely sexist or any sort of feminism issue. Poor representation of females, such as chainmail bikinis or sterotypes? Absolutely! No female protagonist? No different to Kult and other games only offering a female protagonist.

[Corwin]

Speaking of Chainmail Bikinis!! (http://www.feartheboot.com/comic/default.aspx?c=16)

[xSamhainx]

that was a funny comic!

[fatBastard()]

I usually pick the female protagonist if given a choice and that is entirely for sexist reasons. If I'm going to spend the next 30-60 hours starring at someone's butt I prefer it to be a woman's butt :drool:

Seriously though, I'm not playing myself when I play a game. Sure, I'm having a hard time playing someone very different from my own convictions and haven't been able to complete any game as an evil character yet, but I'm not playing ME. Consequently I don't give a hoot who or what I play but to be perfectly honest, I DO prefer games with some degree of predetermined parameters (Gothic, Witcher, etc) because of the narrative options such predetermination provides.

For the most part (though there are exceptions they are rare) story vs. freedom/customization is a slider bar. The more focus you have on telling a good/complex story the fewer choices you can safely give the player and vice versa. I, for one, will ALWAYS pick the great story over the multiple choices, but then again I don't play games to "play" them. I play games to "experience" them.

In short, if there is a reason why I can only play as Trunky the pink elephant then I don't mind.

[Cm]

I have no feminist in me screaming for justice. To be totally honest, I really don't care as long as the game is worth my money. I just like playing my own gender when I can. It helps me get into character more I think. I can come up with those witty retorts in my mind much faster if I am the girly one in the game already.

"If you are the local prostitute for the block, I could make millions in this game." :lol:

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I tend to rather play not female characters, although I sometimes do it.
For example if the male version is too ... warrior-like. I most certainly wouldn't play a Rambo, if I had any choice.

For example, I most certainly prefer Archers, if I can have them, and I often have the feeling ... well, following the cliché of a brutal, close-combat warrior-type (sword, hammer etc.) who is of course male, and a swift and agile female archer.

And I don't believe that many games were ever made to completely disturb this cliché.

This is imho mostly due to 70-80-90 % of ALL developers being male. Or maybe that's a cliché, too.

Who buys RPGs ? Who buys other games ? I once read that Myst and The Sims were mainly - and massively ! - bought by women. And I almost assume that WWII games are almost only bought by men - no matter which age.

RPGs are often about might & power ("Might & Magic"). Who actually wants to play with that ? "Becoming" a character that becomes more & more powerful ?

Is this really a women's thing ? Or rather a men's thing ?

Has this something to do with real world role models ? I recently read a short note about a scientific study which revealed that men would rather copulate with good-looking women - and women with "mighty men". Cliché fulfilled ?

Would women want to become all-powerful characters ? Or rather men ?

These are the questions I ask myself. And I'm quite sure they have something to do with sales as well.


By the way, "Kult - The Heretic Kingdom" is the only RPG I know where you can only play a female character - apart from "Gods - Lands of Infinity" maybe.

I would *really* see one day an RPG that was 90-100 % made by women ... I'd wonder how different it would be ...

[Dhruin]

Cute Knight (http://www.hanakogames.com/knight.shtml)
Aveyond (http://www.amaranthia.com/modules/aveyond/)

[zima98]

It is almost no point in trying to change the mind of a true feminist they are both unreasonable and blind. In Sweden everything should be equal... so now the haircut for male and female has to cost the same or it is discrimination... nevermind that cutting a female's hair takes twice as long on average!



Price of cutting hair should depends on their lenght no matter if they are female or male hair (males sometimes have also long one) ;) - that would be fair ;) yeah.


I'm female and I can say I more often paly with male characters (when I have choice) - it's just more fun to be someone else in the game. I don't make my alter ego in games.
When we are talking about rpgs I think there should be games that allow you play diffreant characters and games that give you pre-defined character but in the same time give you good story connectted with character (PE: T - I don't imagine playing there female version of nameless one ;) ).

[Sergius64]

I prefer playing cRPGs with Pre-Gens unless the games specifically focus more on combat and mechanics rather then the story. Story is almost always better when you have a set character because then the creators of the game integrate the character into it. If the story is crap anyway, then you hope that they at least give you a very good fighting\leveling system so at least you can have fun with that.

I prefer RPGs to be given a story to follow, kind of like reading a good fantasy novel or a movie. If I wanted to create my own story I'ld go play MMORGs or play D&D on pen and paper. At least there you have people who can look at what you've created, in a single player RPG, who are you creating your own story for? No one else is going to see it.

[Dasale]

Fixed main character bring some important things :
- Allows much more easily to setup a background for the main character and this adds a lot.
- Allows to build a psychology, that breaks RPG rules but adds a lot to story density.
- Allows to have voice acting also for the main character, that adds a lot.

I don't say all CRPG should use this choice but all those possibilities adds a lot to story and mood building so it's great that some CRPG do this choice. Often in party CRPG with NPC in the party I get much more attached to the NPC than to my main character.

That doesn't mean that CRPG making this choice should use only a male, for me a nice ass is a much better choice to look at during long hours of playing than a bunch of muscles and an ugly face. The point is that only partial identification occurs and it's not a problem if it's the other sex.