Skills learned from video games(cRPGs)

[ironanno]

Were having a debate at school about this topic: "That the skills learned from video games are just as important as what is learned from books." I started wondering how this would be true especially for cRPGs. Opinions?

[Zaleukos]

I can honestly not think of many "skills" I've learned from video games:)

In my case the only things I've picked up from computer games is a feeling for marginal utility (from strategy games), practical graph traversal (mapping corridors in dungeons), and an expanded English vocabulary on medieval weapons. Books have given me a lot more, obviously mainly in terms of vocabulary and general knowledge of the world (even a comic book will have references to real life if you are attentive).

So it's not just that I cant think of cases where the things learned from games are as important, but I have a hard time coming up with much I've learned from games at all. Books are simply superior vessels of knowledge atm.

[zakhal]

I learned to speak english fast. And I got fast reflexes and steady aim from decades of joystick/mouse use. I was the sharpest shooter in army. Army teacher called me a murderer after he saw how accurate my fire was.

[Ubereil]

The "classical" skill you can learn from computers/computer games is hand-eye coordination. I suspect you train your perception when you're playing computergames too, especially your visual perception. Since you're talking about RPG's you allso train problemsolveing. And if English isn't your native language then RPG's are a goldmine for learning English, since you use it on a different level than if you're reading books in English or watching TV/films.

Übereil

[zakhal]

There was a study som while ago which said that those surgeons who (had) played games had better skills than those who had not. They had improved hand-coordination that was quite useful in the operating room.

Also this is just a guess but games might improve memory functions. Its much more active hobby than TV that is mostly passivating. You might keep your memory longer if you play games until old age.

[skavenhorde]

Chinese...Hands down Chinese games have helped me tremedously with learning that language.

Edit: Forgot one...If you include learning games. I learned how to type and all the states and capitals of America when I was in Junior High.

[ironanno]

I started thinking about moral dilemmas and skills to deal with them. CRPGs are all about choice or should be in my opinion. The Witcher for example presents shades of grey and choosing from the lesser of two evils. Reading is an active process also but maybe games are even more so. Seeing how your actions have meaningful consequences and seeing how it affects NPCs around you could be I think useful for deveploment of thought. When you read a book you're presented with the writers opinion, in a cRPG you can have that but you can also play around with the game world and it's characters to some extent.

Edit: There was a study som while ago which said that those surgeons who (had) played games had better skills than those who had not. They had improved hand-coordination that was quite useful in the operating room.

Also this is just a guess but games might improve memory functions. Its much more active hobby than TV that is mostly passivating. You might keep your memory longer if you play games until old age.

I saw a documentary on old age sometime ago. The people who had an active hobby usually would avoid Alzheimers brought by aging. The people they'd studied had a brain area that apparently kept growing even at 80 or so. The hobbies on the show were mostly sports and there was one musical hobby also. I would quess an active gaming hobby would have the same effects, wonder if books would too.

http://discovermagazine.com/2005/jul/brain-on-video-games

Good to have some authority on the subject:)

[zakhal]

http://discovermagazine.com/2005/jul/brain-on-video-games

Good to have some authority on the subject:)

Gee had so much fun playing Pajama Sam that he subsequently decided to try his hand at an adult video game he picked at random off a store shelf—an H. G. Wells–inspired sci-fi quest called The New Adventures of the Time Machine. “I was just blown away when I brought it home at how hard it was,” he says. “I thought, ‘You can’t tell me that people go to the store and pay fifty dollars and buy this!’ Then I found out that there are billions spent each year on these games.”

Gee’s scholarly interest was also piqued. He sensed instantly that something interesting was happening in his mind as he struggled to complete the puzzles of The Time Machine. “I hadn’t done that kind of new learning since graduate school. You know, as you get older, you kind of rest on your laurels: You learn certain patterns, you know your field, and you get a lot of experience. But this requires you to think in a new way. I saw that the excitement of this is the challenge and the difficulty and the new learning. That’s what makes it fun!”

Of course I had to check what game he had played:
The New Adventures of the Time Machine

"Unfortunately, pretty pictures can't make up for the sheer number of frustrating elements in the game in addition to the problems with the story, the puzzles, and the control. For instance, you lose health when you save your game. Crucial cutscenes won't cue properly, which makes progress impossible. The list of complaints goes on and on."

"It's a nonsensical story periodically interrupted by a string of infuriating puzzles."

"I can actually agree with the gamespot review for once. this game sucks."

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/adventure/newadventuresofthetm/
Critic Score (8 reviews) 52% User Score (38 votes) 61%

But it was a good read thx for the link.

[Jaz]

While hand/eye coordination and what I call 'design empathy'* are among the skills trained by cRPGs and other games as well, the skill I find trained the most when I'm playing cRPGs is patience. Wait patiently until the NPC finishes talking so I won't miss any crucial piece of info, patiently trying to beat the boss critter for the umpteenth time, jump over the crevasse again and again and again, trying to solve a puzzle just one more time.

_______________________________
*by which I mean developing a feel for gameplay, thus being able to find and use expoits.

[Prime Junta]

To be perfectly honest, I don't think there's anything significant I've learned from cRPG's. OK, there is the D&D ruleset: NWN and NWN2 made me a much more fluent dungeon master in PnP games, but I'm not sure that counts.

However, there are games from which I have learned a quite a few things, or, specifically, they've illustrated and deepened my understanding of things I was already familiar with, or stimulated me to find out about things I didn't yet know. Rome: Total Realism is the best example from recent years. Never mind the historical details, but that game really created a "who's who in the ancient world" framework in my head in a way that no amount of reading could quite manage. Plus, it got me reading up on all kinds of things I wasn't even aware of; the Bactrians for example.

[ironanno]

the skill I find trained the most when I'm playing cRPGs is patience.

I usually find I like listening to NPCs, depending on the game naturally. Quess that's just my play style. Usually if I find I'm not interested in what NPCs are saying I just quit playing. Do you have more patience when you listen to people also?

To be perfectly honest, I don't think there's anything significant I've learned from cRPG's.

Just entertainment for you? Even if it's just entertainment I think one can learn things from cRPGs, or learn skills that aren't only useful in the game world, or in gaming. Completing quests, if they're tough enough, might improve ones logical reasoning. Still, I think the skills are rather abstract and it might take a psychiatric to find them.

[Prime Junta]

I think there may be other ways to classify things besides "educational" | "just entertainment."

For example, while I am entertained by walking the dog, going to a Bruckner concert, seeing an exhibit of Sally Mann's photography, or reading "The Waste Land" by T.S. Eliot, and I don't think I really learn any useful (or even useless) skills from doing these things, somehow I feel it's just slightly wrong to call them "just entertainment."

I certainly get a different kick out of them than things I do consider to be "just entertainment," such as playing Tetris, listening to/watching MTV, or leafing through an evening paper to catch up on the gossip.

[titus]

mmm I learned myself and what I would be in my mind be playing RPGs
Sometimes you play as youyr self without realising it at the moment.
Also sometimes you play as what you would want to be more like.example: a freil small boy will love it to play the strong brute, and a simpler guy would like to play the wize wizard or so.

[ironanno]

I think there may be other ways to classify things besides "educational" | "just entertainment."
For example, while I am entertained by walking the dog, going to a Bruckner concert, seeing an exhibit of Sally Mann's photography, or reading "The Waste Land" by T.S. Eliot, and I don't think I really learn any useful (or even useless) skills from doing these things, somehow I feel it's just slightly wrong to call them "just entertainment."

I certainly get a different kick out of them than things I do consider to be "just entertainment," such as playing Tetris, listening to/watching MTV, or leafing through an evening paper to catch up on the gossip.

Yeah, I'm sorry I had to be somewhere and had to leave the post a bit unfinished and maybe unthinked too:). I quess those are rather narrow terms. I realize saying "just" was downright stupid, that's saying something is worth less and that's not in discussion here.

Skills aren't the only possible thing one gains from cultural activities, and if you don't become better at something, or learn some skill while you play a game that doesn't mean it just entertainment. So instead of learning some skills from cRPGs you still maybe gain some sort of a fullfilment, like what you get when looking at a piece of art, or reading great literature. The problem is what one means with skills. Still I think I understand better what you said in your first post now.

[magerette]

I have to stick in the fact that I am primarily able and willing to use a PC and flit around on the internet because my son got me to play a few computer games in 1995. I doubt I ever would have been motivated to learn anything about computers, (even how to use them at the email/photo shop level like so many of my generation,) without the need to learn basic operational skills and terms to install and play games. This is not to say I'm profoundly knowledgeable about computers, but I have a comfort level that many my age lack.

And in the 21st century, I can't think of too many more useful skills you could have. It's a great enabler for many things. It certainly goes beyond just entertainment, and is a pivotal force for re-educating myself--and I owe it all to Master of Orion2. :)

[15th]

Aside from a few logic puzzles, not a lot comes from crpgs, aside from a lot of reading and looking up the meaning of the occasional word.

It's not really a skill or cRPG, but after playing the "Thief" series I started paying more attention to light and shadow. Stalking around the house sneeking up on people, pity about the creaking floorboards otherwise I might of gotten good at it.

[Cm]

Well my grandkids have learned to read. If they want to play they have to be able to read the directions. They have also improved vocabulary wise. Meanings of words are important to game play. But those are limited skills and certainly no substitution for what a book gives. ;)

[zakhal]

I taught my sister to play doom on a dos5-based pc when she was 6-7. Not sure if she learned anything from it but she did play it.

[titus]

Learned a lot of english vocabulary with it

[Arpyjee]

Were having a debate at school about this topic: "That the skills learned from video games are just as important as what is learned from books." I started wondering how this would be true especially for cRPGs. Opinions?

1) Processing vast amounts of visual data.

2) Reading comprehension and vocabulary (more applicable to text-heavy CRPG's, like Baldur's Gate 2, Planescape:Torment, etc.).

3) Hand-eye coordination (more applicable to the TPS/FPS solo RPG hybrids such as Oblivion which have combat that is not turn-based, and therefore depends more on measurement, anticipation and reflexes).

4) Creative thinking skills, and overall imagination.

5) Ability to accelerate time more quickly towards the future (with CRPG's you enjoy).

6) Ability to decrease the procession of time (with CRPG's you find unenjoyable).


IOW, CRPG's transform the nature of man, and make man virtually omnipotent !!!

AHA !!!

[zakhal]

One thing not mentioned yet: learning. People who play games are faster to learn new things. This might be related to the higher than average school success mentioned in the above article.

[xSamhainx]

computer games taught me about files, basically. What they are, how directories are structured, how to make something work that doesnt at first, how to tweak some things the way you like them, how to grab things out you may want for other puposes such as image or sound files, animations, etc. What a sound file is, what a cfg file is, all the different flavors of file and what programs to open and alter them with. Games make other types of programs easier to figure out, from a technical standpoint, games are quite complex. I'm always digging thru a game's directory seeing what I can tweak or take!

Ive learned pretty much all I know about computers from dissecting, altering, and making games run!

[Jaz]

Oh right, this reminds me of the good old DOS days: Himem... DOS extender... treeinfo... :)

[xSamhainx]

O the horror, the rough old days of windows 95..... ='.'=

[ironanno]

Ive learned pretty much all I know about computers from dissecting, altering, and making games run!

I practically learned how to use computers through my first games as a kid. Baldur's Gate II and Warlords III(some turn-based strategy game), I can imagine I had a tough time teaching how to play Baldur's Gate II to myself at the age of 12 or so.

If I compare my skills with computers to that of my parents who don't play games, the gap is rather big, could also be the age difference also but games definitely have some part to in it.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

After I crashed into ships far too often for my taste with my X-Wing, I became much more careful while driving my car in real life (I still was a beginner, then).
This is the most important thing to me I've learned from video games.

[azraelck]

I learned to despise humanity. Wait... that was getting married.

I have picked up neat little tidbits of info here and there, but not a lot. I guess the main thing I learned was how to read.

[Geist]

There's no question that we learn skills and hone all kinds of thinking processes as a result of playing video games. The real question is, how useful are these skills and thinking processes outside the realm of video games? We've already seen lots of examples of skills or knowledge acquired either directly from gaming, or inspired by it. But gaming as a medium for learning still has huge untapped potential, and that's something that really fascinates me. For example, most children (or older students) don't enjoy doing math lessons. But, if those lessons were incorporated into a game - ie. you have to solve a math problem in order to open the treasure chest and get the magic sword, or you have to make use of the laws of physics when constructing your castle - I believe students would experience a far greater level of motivation and enjoyment. I really hope that educators will one day pay more attention to technology and gaming as learning tools. And I hope future genererations won't have to suffer through the stoic and tedious methods of teaching that many of us experienced.

[mute]

Its many secondary effect that games in general can bring to you. As books, as tv, as movies etc. I know my interest in physics, and understanding physics is the urge to live wing commander for real (except the cats!).

CRPG in particular have giving me interest into middle age and stuff, but thats not necessarily the CRPG stuff. However, what have helped me tremendous is my early age in real RPGing. Since public speaking and expressing myself was a big part of that.

CRPG, or games in general, have develeoped interest in my occupation. Working with IT. (Not as a techician but a "utilizer" - hm . yes a utilizer. How do we practicly engulf IT into an organization making everyboyd feel comfortable. I guess my wrestling with DOS, OS/2 and Unix have made it clear to me. Computer can't be hard to use! :) ). I ran a BBS pre-public internet time for 7 years. Solely as a mean to be able to discuss games via FidoNet. )

So in my case, except english perhaps, all my skills is secondary and me wanting to play game has helped me find new ways to make new friends. Ah, yet another one. I would probably not be here if i wasn't interested in CRPG praciticing english writing... (which i need...)

Well. I guess. After a few beers i think the stuff games teach us larger then it might seems when it first looked down on. But i think as always. The mileage varys. Some people play just for distraction and thinks nothing of it. Other for the passion.

[Squeek]

My wife was the only one who knew, but the only thing I did with my first PC was play video games. I was embarrassed about that at the time.

But to do that, I had to learn about DOS, its file structures and commands. Soon I was extending and expanding its memory and tinkering around with its infamous autoexec.bat and config.sys files. Then I learned how to install a sound card and add memory.

Up to that point I had only ever used computers at work where someone else had to worry about making them run. The only thing I understood was how to use the applications. The video games I played at home on my PC enabled me to understand how to handle a computer all by myself. So the next PC I got was for business, and I went out on my own.

That first PC that I used for nothing but video games was actually pretty valuable. It changed my life.

[Sergius64]

Aside from a few logic puzzles, not a lot comes from crpgs, aside from a lot of reading and looking up the meaning of the occasional word.

It's not really a skill or cRPG, but after playing the "Thief" series I started paying more attention to light and shadow. Stalking around the house sneeking up on people, pity about the creaking floorboards otherwise I might of gotten good at it.

SO true. The receptionist at my work keeps calling me "ninja" because of how stealthily I approach the candy jar. She only notices me when she hears the rustling of me trying to pick the candy I want.

Also I think I'm slightly better at mathematical skills because playing RPGs with lots of stats and figuring out the best combinations to be able to combat enemies more effectively.

[ironanno]

But gaming as a medium for learning still has huge untapped potential, and that's something that really fascinates me. For example, most children (or older students) don't enjoy doing math lessons. But, if those lessons were incorporated into a game - ie. you have to solve a math problem in order to open the treasure chest and get the magic sword, or you have to make use of the laws of physics when constructing your castle - I believe students would experience a far greater level of motivation and enjoyment. I really hope that educators will one day pay more attention to technology and gaming as learning tools. And I hope future genererations won't have to suffer through the stoic and tedious methods of teaching that many of us experienced.

I'd like to add that psychological studies have proved that the teaching methods employed at schools favor girls, mostly because of language skills being more important. Video games on the other hand still have a bigger amount of men playing them. To motivate boys at school more and bump up their grades, one answer might be video games. Not only boys, different teaching techniques can help any child feel more motivated, regardless of their sex. It's all about making learning interesting and easier.

[magerette]

...Not only boys, different teaching techniques can help any child feel more motivated, regardless of their sex. It's all about making learning interesting and easier.

Very true, there's even a group called Serious Games Initiative (http://www.seriousgames.org/index2.html), that's dedicated to finding practical and/or educational uses for games, and not just for kids.

And don't forget Typing of the Dead (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/puzzle/typingofthedead/review.html)! ;)

[ironanno]

Very true, there's even a group called Serious Games Initiative (http://www.seriousgames.org/index2.html), that's dedicated to finding practical and/or educational uses for games, and not just for kids.

Thanks for the heads up, the video about games in education was really interesting. Just starting to realise what untapped potential games have when it comes to learning. In one of the universities mentioned in the video they were creating a historical mod for NWN.:)

[aries100]

Interesting thread :)

Let me tell you a true story:

I got my first computer in 1998. And Baldur's Gate in 1999. I didn't have internet at that time so one of my fondest memories about playing Baldur's Gate is staung late at work, searching the internet for tips and tricks to Baldur's Gates. And that's basically how I learned to use the internet.

I agree with Geist that making boys&girls solve that math problem to get access to the cool magical sword or to use real life physics to construct a castle are great things :) to do in class or to make students learn something without them consciously knowing that they are learning.

I'm 40+ so I can remember the old DOS days where you really had to know your way around file structures, command lines and all that stuff. I'm not afraid to use that. I even dare to go into the regedit command in windows to fix things.

On a completely different, but yet somehow related note, I just read an interview with a Dabish who got his first job, simply because of his interest in surfing. He made a Danish website about surf and that got him a job as PR&Communications guy at law firm, I think.

At another site, (probably TES?) I have read that there's a teacher that uses Morrowind to dicuss ethics problems with her students such as - is stealing always bad? or - racial stereotypes - good or bad? and such questions. As a teacher myself, I really like this :) I also think that the narrative structure in Baldur's Gate can be analysed and discussed like the narrative structure in the TES games can as well. I would love to use the demo for TLJ to teach my students about how to characterize persons as it is so distinctly and cleverly well done in that game.

Bioshock could be used for discussion genetics&technolgy and if humanity should be allowed to enhance itself that way. And students could learn about genetics etc. in physcis, chemistry and biology.

[Kelvorn]

Games like Planescape: Torment and The Longest Journey actually made me want to read more but I don't think that really counts.

But when I had computer typing class eons ago. We had this super mario game that actually teaches you typing. It's an exact mario platform game where the bricks and mario's opponents have letters on them. You need to press those letter on the keyboard in order to break/kill them. It's actually made learning fun and it kinda improved my typing skills.

Here's an actual link to give you an example: http://www.themushroomkingdom.net/games/mtt2

Also, playing PC games, I've learned how to maintain and upgrade my PC. But most importantly, not being conned by people at Best Buy or other electronic stores.

[Prime Junta]

Mineralogy.

I've been playing Dwarf Fortress, and now I know all about gabbro, gneiss, slate, obsidian, basalt, andesite, felsite, hematite, orthocline, calcite, magnetite, tetrahedrite, bismuthinite, lignite, chalk, limestone, conglomerate, loam, granite, and gneiss, not to mention the differences between igneous extrusive, igneous intrusive, sedimentary, and metamorphic rock.

Seriously, I've gotten pretty curious about them and will get a field guide to minerals so I can know what the damn things look like.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I'd like to add that psychological studies have proved that the teaching methods employed at schools favor girls, mostly because of language skills being more important.

We even have had several big articles (announced on the title-page) in great, serious German magazines about that.

[Dasale]

Computer games learn you :
- Killing isn't a major affair it's more an everyday funny hobby.
- To be a winner, morale is here to be broken you let it to losers.
- Women are restricted to second roles, that's natural life.
- The world gravitates around you, an obvious conclusion you get from video games.
- Violence is fun, blood looks cool.
- CRPG bring even more : You learn a lot of useful stuff for your real life, like what hobgoblin or wyverns are, the name of a ton of medieval weapons, what magic is, a lot about hell and demons.

:p

[aries100]

And computer games can learn you how to survive, too...

http://www.berlingske.dk/article/20071214/livsstil/71214079/

This article from the a Danish newspaper tells about a 12-year old boy who remember the skill 'fake death' he learned playing World Of Warcraft when he ran across a mouse ? (one of those giant deer with the big horns) in the Swedish forests.

He pretended quite simply to de very dead --- and the mouse went away...

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I don't think "mouse" is the right word here.
I think "moose" is the right word.

[Ubereil]

Yeah, it's moose and not mouse. By the way, is it just me who find the idea of a kid getting attacked by a mouse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse) and escapeing by pretending to be dead hillarious? :D

Übereil

[SacrificiaLamb]

Any experience that provokes imagination, casuing one to see something from a different perspective, if only slightly, is a good thing. Expand the mind, expand the neurons into new pathways - like exercising a muscle. Our brains tend to become hardwired if life is too repetitious and predictable, making it harder and harder to break that programming over time, much like a bad habit. Highly-repetitious games (I could name more than a few, many of them MMOGs) likely have a negative influence on brain conditioning, as they lock one into narrow trains of thought, usually indulging aspects of the 'lizard brain' - accumulation of material goods, competition, survivial instinct, etc. I've observed that many of these games tend to have an addictive quality for most players, not surprisingly. This is why I stick with single-player cRPGs and adventure games for the most part.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Yes, and not used neuronal networks loosen themselves again.

[GothicGothicness]

Puzzle solving, how to sleep in class, programming ( making my own ones ), how to pick up girls, how to win a court case, going one night without sleep, english, speech, how to bake bread ( Ultima 7 )... and lots of other stuff!

[skavenhorde]

Well, I'm not sure this would qualify for this topic but a skill, I'm still learning, over here at the watch is how to interact with people more. My EQ rates around a carrot and that piece of gunk that gets stuck in your eyes in the morning:) I've just recently learned that less is more when trying to explain your viewpoint. So thanks for that :) Now I just have to apply the 'less is more strategy' at work and see if it helps there.

[Acleacius]

That tip about women dropping anything they are doing and heading to the nearest broom closet when you give them a diamond is TRUE! I need a diamond mine! :biggrin:

Of course there's much less exciting stuff, such better spacial awareness, audio awareness, hand to eye coordination and some nonsense about keeping guys out of trouble. pifff!
Anyone wanna go in halfies on a diamond mine?

[Alrik Fassbauer]

http://forum.americasarmy.com/viewtopic.php?t=271086

[V7]

Aside from the hard to measure hand eye coordiantion and problem solving fluff - I knew basic typing but playing NWN online easily trippled the speed.