Abby, evil? Say, what? :) Spoilers!

[Acleacius]

This has SPOILERS from Chapter 1 and was moved here from the Big Fight in Chapter 1 post, since it required me to have more than 10 Spoiler tags, it was getting messy. ;)
I switched back to the Short/Default English version so if there is an issue/mistake due to translation from Polish, oops. :)

There is absolutely nothing in MY game that suggest Abby knew Ilsa would kill herself, I even carried that bottle with me for every conversation and never got to question her directly about Ilsa. The only dialog tree I didn't do was picking the 4 or so incorrect answers to the question of the Beast. Having tested and double tested, I was never able to ask her about the Poison Bottle and the only time this comes up in conversation is in the cave. When Geralt speaks to her Abby says "Mykl raped Ilsa", Geralt replies "You profited from the poison".

Then, Abby in a separate description of Haarg's and Odo's incidents from the previous dialog about Mykl and Ilsa, Geralt responds "You knew and did nothing".
This statement from Geralt proves to be untrue and unfair, as she is a single woman in a town full of rape, racist and murder gangs whom actually did do something. After, as a little girl from this village who at the very least was forced to watch as her puppy was skinned alive, became a witch to defend herself.

While we don't know the extent of her powers besides being very skilled at making potions, she seems have made the doll, after the fact to try to punish Odo through torment and/or guilt. Secondly she seemed to only promised to sleep with Haarg if he would sell weapons to the Squirrels, as punishment for selling a Squirrel to the Guards. Yet Haarg claims this as she was forcing him, well yeah sure this is true but only in the context of sex. :p

Odo, claims she put a spell on him to kill his brother, there are two HUGE problems with this, if true how would Odo know this? It's called Projection. The Reverend clearly says "she has abilities beyond the understanding of these simple folk". and secondly is Odo's claim of hatred of warriors, which most likely comes from jealously over Warriors being able to attract women, i..e. Abby whom Odo must have had a crush on, yet his brother earned her desire, driving him into his Murderous state, NOT Abby's Potions.

So she was trying to do something by reacting to the environment she lived in and imo tells us about Geralt as well as providing more depth, even as hard as he may try at being impartial, occasionally he gets it wrong.

[Dhruin]

She did nothing to make the town better, other than using her powers to surreptitiously pursue vengeance on the people she hated. She is more sympathetic than the others and perhaps her history offers some justification but she still does the wrong thing.

[Acleacius]

How about an example, I don't recall ever seeing/hearing of her using her powers to "surreptitiously pursue vengeance", as only thing that comes to mind is self-defense which I can list at least one example?

She caused the guy in front of her house to have stomach craps because he tried to take her sexually, yet she didn't kill. Ask any girl you know if they would love to have that power if a guy tries to force himself on her, I used to teach women's and children's self-defense and I can assure you they would love it. :)

How are these for trying to be a better person and fighting against the odds in a town full of Bastards?
She offered to care for the child, when she said "Think I would turn my back on an orphan?".
Or that fact that she constantly offered to help Geralt solve the problems, without ever trying to charge for her information or exploit us as the others did.
How about offering to teach a spell for free if we promised to never tell anyone the recipe, to help in the fight against the Beast.

[skavenhorde]

Right at the end of the chapter when you save the child from the cave he says that Abby gave him to the reverend as a peace offering and then the reverend gave him to the Salamandra. I don't remember the entire dialogue but that was how he ended up down there in the cave. So which one is the bigger bastard, Abby who gave away a child to save her neck or the reverend who gave the child to a known criminal orginization. Abby's actions up until that point could be justified in one way or another, but not giving up the child. I still chose to help her. She started out with good intentions with the child but the situation deteriorated to the point she was forced to make one really bad decision.

[Jabberwocky]

I'm currently in chapter 2 so if there's anything more to the Abigail story I wouldn't know it. - Just stating that up front.

Based on my Chapter 1 experience, I always felt there was more to Abbey than was presented. In fact, for a while I surmised that she was the beast herself! Something seemed dark about her, like she was hiding something major. Where did you get the information about her seeing her dog skinned alive? I don't recall hearing that anywhere...

Anyhow, I totally get the arguements being made for her virtues, but in the end I have to agree with the conclusion *my* Geralt came to: "I chose the lesser of two evils."

[Dhruin]

While we don't know the extent of her powers besides being very skilled at making potions, she seems have made the doll, after the fact to try to punish Odo through torment and/or guilt.

An example of exacting vengeance? How about most of your first quote - but the bit above will do for starters. What is the doll for, again?

Again, I find her more sympathetic than the rest but she had a number of options open to her (like, you know, moving away from these evil people), instead of continuing to live in the community so she could assist and direct their suffering.

[Prime Junta]

@Ac, a question: why is this so important to you? It's clear that many people, myself included, experienced Abigail as a morally ambiguous character. You experienced her as an unsullied blossom of goodness. What's the point of trying to "prove" that she's one or the other?

It's pretty obvious that the developers intended her to be an ambiguous character, open to several interpretations -- if they hadn't, they wouldn't have left Geralt with dialog and quest branch options that support three different interpretations: Abigail as evil (-> Geralt sides with the Reverend), Abigail as good (-> "Who would I be otherwise?"), and Abigail as the lesser evil ("I chose the lesser evil.")

In other words, they deliberately chose to leave her character open, to give the player something to puzzle over. They didn't put in any ironclad "proof" that she's one or the other; instead, they leave it to you, the player, to examine the (circumstantial) evidence and draw your own conclusions.

What was Abigail's role in Odo's murder of his brother? What did she know, when did she know it, and how did she feel about it when selling poison to the raped girl? We don't know for certain: all we have is circumstantial evidence, and our interpretation of her character through our dealings with her; only the writers know for certain.

And that, friends, is what makes the game so damn cool.

[magerette]

I originally supported Abby against the Reverend, but later my opinion of her did indeed change. She, in her own way, was quite manipulative of Geralt, and if she felt comfortable manipulating a cynical mutant with a talent for killing, who might she not manipulate? It was plain that her offer to share his bed was made purely out of self-interest, as later when she's established elsewhere, she tells him "That's all in the past." I thought she was an excellent example of the ambiguous quality of choice in the game--factually you just never are really going to know how bad or good she is--except in your own opinion. :)

[Acleacius]

Right at the end of the chapter when you save the child from the cave he says that Abby gave him to the reverend as a peace offering and then the reverend gave him to the Salamandra.
I don't remember hearing it was a peace offering but I really didn't think to talk to Alvin again this game, I kept a Save and will check that thanks. I did know the Reverend gave him to Salamandra and was involved with slaving kids but don't recall Abby knowing anything about this.

Where did you get the information about her seeing her dog skinned alive? I don't recall hearing that anywhere..
When Alvin drinks the potion and the Beast is reciting how it was born of the evil of the men in the village, the Beast stated the men when young skinned the Witch's little puppy alive. I don't remember exactly, but it was definatly that scene.

An example of exacting vengeance? How about most of your first quote - but the bit above will do for starters. What is the doll for, again?
Well your quote was "other than using her powers to surreptitiously pursue vengeance"
that is different than self defense the only way she knows how, right? I mean if a girl only knows how to defend herself with martial arts and knocks a guy to the ground if she hits the solarplexes knocking the wind out of him, is that surreptitiously pursuing vengeance? Maybe, but honestly I don't see it that way. Women for the most part should be given the benefit of doubt in these situations, since clearly the majority of violence (at least 90% in RL) is perpetrated by men.
As I mentioned I honestly have no idea what the doll was for, as we got no explanation of what it was used for or it's potential power, if any at all. I have only seen Abby make potions and Heal, hardy sounds the evil type to me.
You maybe right, I don't know maybe she felt an obligation to stay in the village, I mean once your powerful enough to defend yourself in any form, you sort of lose some of the fear that can control your life at times. Maybe she was trying to help

ou experienced her as an unsullied blossom of goodness.
Lol, debating a point of whether someone is evil or not has nothing to do with proving unsullied blossomness. :)
Your of course are tap dancing around the issue, in the game how much unjustified violence was Initiated by women? OF course she's ambiguous the quest wouldn't have a neutrality if this were not the case, however as you know I am debating the point of evil not ambiguous.

What was Abigail's role in Odo's murder of his brother?"
Exactly, there is no possible way to know without knowing what her powers are capable of as I mentioned, yet if your comfortable condemning an women to death based on NO evidence, well lets just say I hope you never do jury duty. :p

What did she know, when did she know it, and how did she feel about it when selling poison to the raped girl?
Or did she have any idea at all before knowing, if so did she for some reason think she would use it on one of the men. As Vincent says "If it's a black tongue.it's poison and mostly the wife.".
This is most always self defense, in the RW.

We don't know for certain: all we have is circumstantial evidence
Once again you are spot on about Abby, yet oddly enough in the case of all the men we KNOW they are guilty, funny that. :)

Yes, it's a cool, game. Cool games are destined to be debated. :)

[Acleacius]

if she felt comfortable manipulating a cynical mutant with a talent for killing, who might she not manipulate?
Huh? I hope that you aren't throwing in later chapters here for those of us that, haven't finished. :p
In case you are, Not a single female with the exception of Triss ever has made an acknowledgment of sleeping with Geralt after the fact. I hope was due to rushed nature of the game, as obviously the team seems talented enough to create some relationship responses, at least I have seen so far. ;)
I never got the impression any of the girls Geralt chooses to bed are because he expects them to join a harem, nor did Abby. Clearly it could have been part of the reason, but once again to say it was the only reason and she wasn't attracted to Geralt in a time of high adrenaline, wouldn't be fair either. To me she didn't look scared, she was making a poition that would effect the whole mob, remember what she said? I have to Defend myself.
Damn evil women in this world, eheh! :devilish:

[Prime Junta]

Lol, debating a point of whether someone is evil or not has nothing to do with proving unsullied blossomness. :)
Your of course are tap dancing around the issue, in the game how much unjustified violence was Initiated by women? OF course she's ambiguous the quest wouldn't have a neutrality if this were not the case, however as you know I am debating the point of evil not ambiguous.

"Ambiguous" means "open to different interpretations." "Evil" is one of these possible interpretations. This is the point I've been defending, not the strawman that you've built.

Exactly, there is no possible way to know without knowing what her powers are capable of as I mentioned, yet if your comfortable condemning an women to death based on NO evidence, well lets just say I hope you never do jury duty. :p

Since we don't have trials by jury in my country, that's not a very likely eventuality.

As an aside, I didn't side with the mob in either of my play-throughs, so the accusation you're throwing at me is not only (a) ad hominem and (b) offensive; it's also false. The only thing that your repeated accusation demonstrates is that you (1) tend to jump to conclusions and (2) have poor reading comprehension skills. This, of course, has a direct bearing on the weight we should accord to your opinions on this rather complex game, which is written in a way that demands better-than-third-grade reading skills.

There: aren't you happy you got into a barb-slinging contest with me?

[skavenhorde]

Ouch, remind me never to take on either of you guys. I had to look ad hominem up just to make sure it was what I thought it meant:thinking:

@acleacius I know Alvin said that she gave him up to the reverend, but I don't know if the exact words were peace offering. That part stuck out in my mind because up until that point I wanted to slap the living hell out of the degenerates in that town and defend the witch, but after he said that I almost sided with the town folk. She was still the "lesser evil" even after that but it definatly changed my view on how the town was persecuting the poor witch.

With that said Happy Holidays everybody and hope everybody's Christmas is filled with tons of new games and not too much holiday cheer if your driving :party::boogie:

[Prime Junta]

Ho ho ho. Ho.

[magerette]

That's a very Euro looking Santa, Prime J--or is it one of the jollier inhabitants of your Dwarf Fortress?

@ Ace
You are idealizing the female of the species, but I suppose I shouldn't complain. It just turned me off to Abby when she snubbed Geralt in Act IV(I think) after he risked his life to save her. It made it pretty clear that far from being a moment of emotional vulnerability( or adrenaline) it was just another tool to influence him to protect her, then so long and hit the road, jack. And no, in my game Geralt isn't trying to "haremize" his conquests, but since the devs included the option, I chose to play him as a man trying for emotional connection, not just a serial Don Juan.
Regardless, though, Abby is a great standout NPC in a game full of exceptional characterizations, so we all win anyway. :)

[Acleacius]

Please skip as Prime Junta likes going Off Topic. :)

"Ambiguous" means "open to different interpretations." "Evil" is one of these possible interpretations. This is the point I've been defending, not the strawman that you've built
Good thing too, otherwise you wouldn't be able to inject any baseless accusations of guilt, acquiescing into your Pierrot of Evil. :p

accusation you're throwing at me is not only (a) ad hominem and (b) offensive; it's also false.
Well I was responding directly to your comments which on one hand you seem to be able to view Abby as Evil and to the death beyond any evidence, at least this is your position from your words, NOT what you did or didn't do IN game.
I however took Good to Neutral, saying Evil is not possible and have provided some decent examples of this with GW and RW infos, yet you constantly insist I am wrong and uneducated.

These, are your usual tactics with me (well I at least hope it's only me) as in numerous threads, for example the thread of possible Root Kit in Bioshock. While I constantly try to stick to facts, the best if my memory att, you will keep saying I don't know what I am talking about even though I am posting accurate and for the most part verifiable infos.

I have been listing, in general RW info about women and violent crime and in the spirit of good debate I made a joke about jury duty. So if you really are offended I apologize out of spirit of good debate, even though you haven't made it clear what you are offended by.
If I don't know how I offended you how can I prevent it happening again?
Your position is Abby is or can be Evil and put to death, while there is no evidence, how is this not ripe for a joke? Or some offense to Finland, unknown to me?
Yet I don't see any ad hominem attack at all, since everything I posted was based in fact and mostly accurate without getting exact details which were never mentioned as needed. :)

The only thing that your repeated accusation demonstrates is that you (1) tend to jump to conclusions and (2) have poor reading comprehension skills.
I have made no accusations, list a single one if you will or it will certainly fall under dubious tap dancing.

It's certainly possible I have poor reading comprehension skills, which could be due to lack of sleep or matched against your superior comprehension. Yet I frequently find in talking/debating, with you repeatedly use ad hominem attacks against me when you can't find stable ground. :)

This, of course, has a direct bearing on the weight we should accord to your opinions on this rather complex game, which is written in a way that demands better-than-third-grade reading skills.

Ahh, I see, well I am certainly glad your superior reading, technical and humanitarian skills are here to set me strait. How dare I defend accuracy and your Frivolous Accusations of Evil and Warranted Unjust Mob Murder. :)

There: aren't you happy you got into a barb-slinging contest with me?
Sure if you say, so. If your uncomfortable with accuracies, maybe it's more convenient to try projecting blame?
Too bad you are offended by my uneducated comprehension and lack linguistic fortitude, if I could become more educated maybe I could calm your propensities.
In case I need to clarify, due to my lack of uneducated comprehension, this means; This is noting personal, we're debating a game and even if you mean it so, I don't take it personally. :)

[Acleacius]

I don't know if the exact words were peace offering
I sort of remember it too without the, peace offering, honestly haven't had time to check it and if it's there is would certainly give the evil side some substance. :)

I wanted to slap the living hell out of the degenerates in that town
Yeah, it's sort of creepy and makes my skin crawl too, due to the realism factors of things women have had to endure through out time. :'(

Happy Holidays everybody and hope everybody's Christmas is filled with tons of new games and not too much holiday cheer if your driving
Yes, everyone stay safe, healthy and sane. :dance: :party:

You are idealizing the female of the species, but I suppose I shouldn't complain.
Hehe, nah. They, for the most part just get the benefit of doubt when it comes to violence. What was it Geralt says. "I put women on a pedestal, so high I can see up their dress." and "I am a wild and crazy, guy!" :devilish:

snubbed Geralt in Act IV(I think)
Lol, Stop Spoiling chapter 4! :p

I chose to play him as a man trying for emotional connection, not just a serial Don Juan.
Ohh, that would be a good idea, I hope Cd Projekt can have a unknown character next game, so we can generate our toons and have some nice relationship options.

Abby is a great standout NPC in a game full of exceptional characterizations
I thought so, too bad Cd Projekt didn't have time for more detailed NPC responses and character growth, next game.

Edit.
You know it's not just here, I have seen people referring to Abby as Evil or Evil Witch and was part of the point of this thread. It's pretty interesting as I actually replay it looking for evil, yet I can't seem to find it. I don't really think this falls in the bad reviewers topic we have often discussed here as it's pretty obvious some can see evil, where others of us can't, even if we are looking with a microscope, hehe.

[Jabberwocky]

The single thing that made me distrust her the most was when Odo was describing to Geralt a night that he saw the beast, and he mentioned he saw the beast staring in Abby's window. Remembering how the Beast was drawn to evil, this sort of clinched, for me, the idea that the witch wasn't exactly miss goody-two-shoes. Of course, Odo could have been lying, but I saw no real reason for him to.

Oh, and thanks for answering my question about the dog skinning thing.. I didn't remember that part. As I recall (and this could be innaccurate to a degree) concerning Alvin being given to the Reverend, he didn't offer much explanation other than "Abigail said I have to live with the Reverend now. He's going to teach me this and that yadda yadda..." Like I said, that's just how I remember it.

[skavenhorde]

Alvin being given to the Reverend, he didn't offer much explanation other than "Abigail said I have to live with the Reverend now. He's going to teach me this and that yadda yadda..." Like I said, that's just how I remember it.


That was it. "Abigail said I have to live with the Reverend now." From my perspective that meant that she gave him to the reverend as a peace offering, but that could be interpreted differently. Say that the reverend told her to give him Alvin or she and Alvin would die. Then she did it to save him. Don't really know the whole story on that and even if we did much of what happened could be looked at from different points of view.

This brings me back to a question I asked not too long ago in Off Topic. What is good and evil? Alrik Fassbauer, Gallifrey, Prime Junta and Dusk had some interesting ideas on what exactly is evil and good.

I still think it comes down to perception. Like Acleacius (as Geralt) percieves all of Abby's actions justified by her environment (as do I) but look at it from the reverend's point of view and you see an evil harlot hell bent on ripping the moral fiber from the inhabitants, although the moral fiber had already been ripped out by their own actions or from Jabberwocky (as Geralt) who took what Odo said about the beast and Abby to heart and concluded that she must in fact be evil. All of these things have an air of truth to them but all of them can be interpreted differently. It all depends on the eye of the beholder and no I'm not talking about the game EOB.

Anyways, yes all good games deserve to be debated. Though I don't know of any other game that has made me think about the nature of good and evil as The Witcher has done.

[Prime Junta]

That's a very Euro looking Santa, Prime J--or is it one of the jollier inhabitants of your Dwarf Fortress?

Actually, he's Lebanese.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/39/78060020_3ef8aa3e72.jpg

Photo from Tabarja, to the north of Beirut. That's my father-in-law Selim in the background.

[Prime Junta]

@Acleacius, you know what your mistake is in this discussion?

You're conflating law and ethics.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is a great legal principle, but it's a terrible ethical principle.

Abby is evil if she magicked Odo into killing his brother, if she knowingly sold poison to a suicide candidate, and if she had a role in invoking the Hellhound. All of these things are suggested in the game -- by things characters say, by things she says, and by bits of circumstantial evidence left lying around. She is guilty of these things if she did them, irrespective of whether we can prove that she did these things.

I maintain -- and, I have a feeling so do most people on this thread other than you -- that there are enough hints and pointers in the game to make "guilty" a reasonable interpretation of her character. Enough to convict her in a trial by jury? Not if she has a good lawyer, I think -- but people have been executed on flimsier evidence if they had a lousy public defender and were the wrong color. But that is beside the point.

Now, in good Christmas spirit, I would like to apologize to you about my funny joke about your third-grade reading skills (all made in the spirit of good debate, of course). I'll try not to do it again, and I'll try to take into consideration that you're only exercising your mad skills as a comedian the next time you call me unfit for jury duty.

[fatBastard()]

You know it's not just here, I have seen people referring to Abby as Evil or Evil Witch and was part of the point of this thread. It's pretty interesting as I actually replay it looking for evil, yet I can't seem to find it. I don't really think this falls in the bad reviewers topic we have often discussed here as it's pretty obvious some can see evil, where others of us can't, even if we are looking with a microscope, hehe.

Then Magerette was right, you ARE idolizing women to the extend that you can't see their flaws even when they're pointed out to you.

You can't be a potion maker AND a local healer without realizing what is going to happen when you sell a desperate young girl a lethal poison, yet Abigail did so anyway = Evil (not "Muwhahaha come see my underground vulcano base" kind of Evil, but evil nonetheless). Abigail could have tried to help her yet she didn't. Instead she provided the tools for the girl's death and that is not something a "Good" person does.

PJ has already mentioned most of the reasons why Abigail is not a nice person at all, so I'm not going to repeat them once again. For me there was no real choice, since I hate religious fanatics with a vengeance, but there was no doubt in my mind that it was a choice of the lesser evil.

I don't really understand why this has become such an issue. NOTHING in The Witcher is black/white. No choice in the game is ever transparent and the consequences for these choice are not readily apparent either. The Squirrels are terrorists who will not hesitate to kill innocent bystanders or take civilian hostages and the Order are a bunch of fanatical zealots who will crush everyone not obedient to their Eternal Flame ... that is what I would call a choice between the plague and cholera (Danish saying. Don't know if the translated version makes sense). With that in mind, then I don't understand why you would think that the choice between Abigail and the Mob would be a simple one.

Then again, as you said: We all perceive things differently even when looking at the same thing.

[Prime Junta]

This brings me back to a question I asked not too long ago in Off Topic. What is good and evil? Alrik Fassbauer, Gallifrey, Prime Junta and Dusk had some interesting ideas on what exactly is evil and good.

With regards to Abigail, here's my take.

When I see her, I see a woman who's been dealt a really bad hand, who chooses to do everything within her power, regardless of any harm it may do to others, to play it.

She's completely alone, in a village that is clearly within an inch of gang-raping and murdering her, with no-one to turn to but herself. She possesses certain powers and skills that cut two ways -- they can protect her, they're needed by the villagers, but they will make the villagers trust her even less. But she's a fighter.

She despises the villagers, seeing them as mean, ignorant, small-minded hicks. She doesn't lose any sleep if some die through her actions. She even gets a certain satisfaction if some of them suffer for what they've done to her, or want to do to her. She wouldn't kill someone for the fun of it, but she's certainly ready to kill them all in self-defense, and possibly just to make her position a bit more secure.

So, she does what she does because she's a fighter, she feels she owes them nothing while they owe her a lot, and to hell with the consequences. For her, it's all about survival: only the strong live, and by God she wants to be one of the strong. If that means manipulation, offering herself to some lout for favors, using an orphan as a pawn, even killing someone, then so be it.

Now, here's another question: does she have a choice in what she does? I think she does. And if she does have that choice, in my book, that makes her evil.

Abigail reminded me a lot about a really nice film I've seen: Babette's Feast (http://french.imdb.com/title/tt0092603/combined). It's about a French woman who gets exiled to an out-of-the-way Danish village. The village is very much like the one in The Witcher -- close-minded, introverted, highly religious, and so on, and it treats Babette much the same way as Abigail. However, Babette takes the opposite path from Abigail, and the film ends very differently. I got the strong feeling that Abigail could have taken that path too, and perhaps if she had, there would have been no hellhound, and the village would have been a lot happier (and more boring) place.

[skavenhorde]

Then Magerette was right, you ARE idolizing women to the extend that you can't see their flaws even when they're pointed out to you.

What's wrong with idolizing women ;) seriously though, her flaws that I saw were human ones. I saw a racist town that was quick to blame the witch/outsider.

You can't be a potion maker AND a local healer without realizing what is going to happen when you sell a desperate young girl a lethal poison.

Maybe, the girl needed it to kill some really, really big rats (gods forbid, rats are our friends :D) or the large variety of beasties in the area(I can't count the number I killed in the game). Like ACE said maybe she needed it to do in the rapist who considered her his girlfriend (stalker alert). The rapist was a member of the only law enforcement in the town and I use the word law very loosely. So what other options would the girl have to get free of this guy? She could leave but why should SHE leave her home when it wasn't her fault what was happening to her. I would consider what Abby did very justified and even heroic if you look at the backlash that would happen if the town found out the girl murdered the soldier and Abby sold her the poison.

With that in mind, then I don't understand why you would think that the choice between Abigail and the Mob would be a simple one.

It's not simple that's why there are so many posts discussing this very issue.

Then again, as you said: We all perceive things differently even when looking at the same thing.

Agreed.

I would percieve Abby as evil if she knowingly conspired to have all of these events happen or even just some of them. A little stomach ache doesn't prove she could control the one guy who murdered his brother. The girl dying I explained earlier and the hellhound I don't believe was ever linked back to her. In the game, it said the hellhound showed up because of all the evil in the town.

@PJ How could Abby have gone down the "good", law and order type of road, in a land where law and order is represented by the town head zealot? She would have no chance with the sheep that followed the grand puba.

Before you say ad hominem at me ;) just kidding, please be aware that I agree with a lot of your theory. The strong female with a will to survive. Also giving up the orphan to save her own skin, though by that time things have gotten out of hand and she may have been forced to give him up. That still is a stretch to justify giving up Alvin. I think she could of just ran off with Alvin if she really wanted to.

I don't agree with you on that she knew all about what was going on. She was doing her best to survive in a town that needed her but hated her at the same time. Sure, she manipulated some people to be more generous to her or the squirrels. You tell me one politician or businessman that doesn't manipulate people and I'll show you someone out of work.

On a side note great santa pic and avatar :)

[magerette]

Actually, he's Lebanese.


Photo from Tabarja, to the north of Beirut. That's my father-in-law Selim in the background.

Looks like a prime example of Christmas spirit from both gentlemen. :)

Back to the tooth-and-nail, nature of good and evil Abby debate:

skavenhorde wrote:
What's wrong with idolizing women ?

That's a very interesting spelling error--IDOL-izing, as making an idol of something definitely removes it's human side-it's fallibilities...

The thing that's wrong with idealizing women, or Woman, is the same thing that's wrong with idealizing any human being. There are many loving, good and nurturing women out there, and there are many dishonest, self-absorbed female opportunists and manipulators as well--same with men. But when you type-cast a gender you open yourself up to disillusionment sometimes even to the point of bitterness when reality conflicts with the ideal. Also you become an enabler of the worst in people. If Abby really is evil, and you close your eyes to it, not only do you open yourself up to any hurt she may cause you, you also enable her to continue in a path that is destructive to her own self.

The choice that Prime Junta points out is very real. You can be persecuted and an outcast and not turn to evil in self-defense. It's just much much harder, and takes a level of forgiving and positive effort that many people can't reach. Good is always harder than evil, and frequently requires sacrifice and self-abnegation. Evil is something anyone can do if they allow themselves to believe they are in the right, others are in the wrong and therefore any actions are justified self-defense.

Really, IMO Abby is about what happens to people when they become victims, and how they may choose to react. She has been made a much more sympathetic character than the Rev for a reason, and the Squirrels and the Order have been portrayed as flawed in the same way. It's a mechanic that forces you to realize how difficult it is to take sides and feel sure you are right--that is, it blurs the line between "Us" and "Them," and never gives the player a simple feeling of moral superiority, because in real life, there seldom is one. :)

[Prime Junta]

@PJ How could Abby have gone down the "good", law and order type of road, in a land where law and order is represented by the town head zealot? She would have no chance with the sheep that followed the grand puba.

So, do you believe that it's only possible to do good if the law is on your side?

There are several things she could have done differently.

(1) Just walk away. She ended up doing that, and it worked out fine. A "good" person, when faced with the having to do evil to survive, but with the option to walk away from it, would have walked away from it.

(2) When the girl came to buy poison from her, she could have talked to her. Asked what's happened. Had a good cry with her -- hell, they were much in the same situation. Then tried to figure out some way in which she could have continued her life, without killing anyone. She could have taken her in as an apprentice, to teach her the herbalist and healer's skills. Together maybe they could have done twice as much, perhaps started a little shop selling cures and charms for the traders passing by -- and certainly together they would have been less vulnerable to the mob terror of the villagers.

(3) When asked to give up Alvin to the Reverend, again, she could have refused (and faced the consequences, whatever they might have been -- but certainly not worse than what actually transpired), or, again, just left.

(4) With Odo and his brother... well, she certainly had no need to get involved with that at all.

) don't agree with you on that she knew all about what was going on. She was doing her best to survive in a town that needed her but hated her at the same time. Sure, she manipulated some people to be more generous to her or the squirrels. You tell me one politician or businessman that doesn't manipulate people and I'll show you someone out of work.

I never said that I thought her evil (in my interpretation of her character) was inexcusable. On the contrary, it's entirely understandable; some things about her are even admirable -- her determination, pluck, sheer refusal to give up despite the odds she was facing. What is evil about her (again, in that interpretation) is the line she crosses -- where she puts herself before anyone else.

Oh, as to politicians and businessmen... while I do know a few pretty decent ones, in general I'd say that if that's your standard for moral behavior, well, you could choose better.

[fatBastard()]

Maybe, the girl needed it to kill some really, really big rats (gods forbid, rats are our friends :D) or the large variety of beasties in the area(I can't count the number I killed in the game).

No. If you want to get rid of Rats, you make Rat Poison. If you want to get rid of other kinds of animals, you make other kinds of animal poisons. What Abigail sold the young girl was made for humans, ergo Abigail KNEW this was to be used to kill a human being, not make someone sick and puke for a week without end but KILL that person.

Like ACE said maybe she needed it to do in the rapist who considered her his girlfriend (stalker alert).

The first thing you do as a healer is find out what is wrong with the person before you attempt to heal the ailment. Only a really incompetent healer would mistake the intent of a desperate young girl seeking a means to end her own life with an angry young girl seeking a way to get revenge for the deeds done to her. I most certainly didn't see Abigail as incompetent.

The rapist was a member of the only law enforcement in the town and I use the word law very loosely. So what other options would the girl have to get free of this guy? She could leave but why should SHE leave her home when it wasn't her fault what was happening to her. I would consider what Abby did very justified and even heroic if you look at the backlash that would happen if the town found out the girl murdered the soldier and Abby sold her the poison.

Abigail KNEW what she sold the poor girl and she KNEW what it was to be used for. There is nothing heroic about aiding a desperate young girl ending her own life. Especially knowing that:

1) It wasn't necessary. As you said, the poor girl could have run away and started over somewhere else. Abigail could have helped her leaving undetected instead of helping her end her own life.

2) It would serve no purpose. With the young girl dead, Mikuel would never be charged with rape and not only would the poor girl be dead, he would also get away with it.

No, Abigail knew what she was doing yet she did it anyway.

[skavenhorde]

@magerette The idolizing women statement wasn't a spelling error, it is a word. I put the comma in the wrong place. Anyways, it was a bad joke :D I have many of them and most of the time people don't get them. You'll have to forgive me when I attempt to be funny, I still can blame it on the whole semi-noob forum memember thing for now.:)

Both you and PJ make an interesting point. Both of you seem to say that she had a choice, but it was the harder one to make and that she shouldn't of put herself first and to hell with everybody else.

Actually your theories are very well thought out that and it is difficult to argue them but I'm wondering if you both agree that she was the definate "lesser evil" out of the bunch, but you say she shouldn't of fought the real evil in the town. The town was so wicked it summoned a hellhound. Isn't fighting that greater evil considered good then? How does leaving or self sacrifice help in this sitation?

She took care of people who didn't like her. (though she gave a tummy ache to one of them) She took Alvin in when no one else would. These seem like good things but then the true evil in the town decided to do what it does best and cause chaos and suffering. Death of the brother, poisoned girl and hellhounds show up. So they blame Alvin and the witch/outsiders. Doing good doesn't always mean turning tale and running. It means sometimes fighting for what you believe in, but that gets tricky depending on what you believe.

The problem I'm having is that she wasn't ever connected to the hellhounds and the real reason she sold the poison. PJ you make a good point with what she could of done, but I still gotta go with she wasn't able to read her mind. Those rats could have been really, really big almost skaven like :D Seriously, do you both disagree with me that the girl wasn't justified in maybe seeking the death of the rapist/stalker(Abby could have thought this)? She could of tried to do what PJ said and live together but he is the law there and how long would that of last? :)

I agree wholeheartily that she shouldn't of gave Alvin up, that was just wrong. I can't justify her actions there. There is no way that she didn't know that giving Alvin to the reverend would end horribly. I tried to justify it, but naah there is no other reason other than to save herself. The noble thing to have done in that situation was fight or run with Alvin just like you said.

Well this has been a most interesting Christmas I got to say that. I never thought I would be debating the nature of good and evil today :) Thanks for an different point of view on how some actions done in desperate situations can set you either above or below the crowd.

@PJ The politician and businessmen remark are an example of how people we look up to or work for manipulate people on a daily basis to achieve their goals (I'm not a fan of corporations or politics) and wasn't my standard for moral behavior :)

[skavenhorde]

What Abigail sold the young girl was made for humans, ergo Abigail KNEW this was to be used to kill a human being, not make someone sick and puke for a week without end but KILL that person.

Didn't want to leave you out fatbastard, you wrote your reply while I was typing. Anyways, really, really big rats :D. Seriously, She wouldn't of known what she was going to use it for. Like I said before she can't be expected to be a mind reader. Did it ever say in the game the girl came to her distraught? I'm a big fuzzy on that one. If so then that blows a huge hole in my theory. Unless it was to get rid of a raping stalker who has delusions that this girl is his girlfriend. Small town, no law to speak of, little money what other options could she have had other than get rid of the soldier or become his slave. Instead of doing that she kills herself. I wish there was more dialogue concerning Act 1 because there are many holes in the story that can be interpreted many different ways (Thanks a lot CDRED :)) Just kidding.


1) It wasn't necessary. As you said, the poor girl could have run away and started over somewhere else. Abigail could have helped her leaving undetected instead of helping her end her own life..

Why is doing good most of the time associated with weakness or running. Fight for what you believe in. Take that evil and shove it right back in their face and show them that decent people won't put up with it.

So here are the main points of what was horrible about abby.

1) dead brother (never even closely proven to Abby. Brother most likely offed him and blamed her)

2) Poison (debatable so far :thinking:)

3) Alvin (in my opionion definate cowardly act and evil -selfish.)

4) hellhounds (Town brought that on themselves)

So far it looks like poison is the real evil thing she did, if she meant to. The others are the zeolots blaming the outsider. Now Alvin was one that even in the game when I definatly thought they were just blaming the poor witch, then Alvin says Abby left him with the reverend. Well my opinion changed immediatly (though I tried to think of an excuse for her but that's all it would an excuse) which was truly selfish. Also maybe sleeping with geralt to influence his choice was evil. But is that truly evil...nah I don't think so.


Remember really really big rats, I mean monster rats. We've faced down really big wolves and other monsters. Why not have a rat problem (cliche RPG quest) Maybe she was given a quest to clean out the cellar full of rats and on the way there she decided it wasn't worth it to do that quest for the 100th time since CRPG were born and killed herself instead of face another giant rat. I had to leave on another bad joke :)

[Prime Junta]

Actually your theories are very well thought out that and it is difficult to argue them but I'm wondering if you both agree that she was the definate "lesser evil" out of the bunch, but you say she shouldn't of fought the real evil in the town. The town was so wicked it summoned a hellhound. Isn't fighting that greater evil considered good then? How does leaving or self sacrifice help in this sitation?

That's a very good question, because it gets us into significantly deeper waters. Namely, what do we mean by fighting evil?

In most games, "fighting evil" means physically killing evil creatures or people. In fact, this is all too often the way it's framed in real life. However, I believe that most of the time this in fact does the contrary -- it *perpetuates* evil, and creates a vicious spiral that leads to ever greater evil.

I believe that if there's one lesson great religious thinkers like the Dalai Lama, the Christ, or Rabbi Hillel can teach us, it is that you should strive to fight evil with kindness rather than with violence. Forgiveness, love, compassion, and mercy can triumph over injustice, hatred, and vengeance. However, to actually manage this, we have to transcend much of our "animal nature."

So, in order to qualify as unambiguously "good," Abigail would have had to fight the evil of the village with love and compassion rather than by manipulation, magic, and poison.

She took care of people who didn't like her. (though she gave a tummy ache to one of them) She took Alvin in when no one else would. These seem like good things but then the true evil in the town decided to do what it does best and cause chaos and suffering. Death of the brother, poisoned girl and hellhounds show up. So they blame Alvin and the witch/outsiders. Doing good doesn't always mean turning tale and running. It means sometimes fighting for what you believe in, but that gets tricky depending on what you believe.

That's true too. However, did Abigail fight for what she believed in... or only for herself -- her own pride, her own survival, her own position? I believe it's the latter.

The problem I'm having is that she wasn't ever connected to the hellhounds and the real reason she sold the poison. PJ you make a good point with what she could of done, but I still gotta go with she wasn't able to read her mind. Those rats could have been really, really big almost skaven like :D

That's beside the point, since *she could have asked.* That's all. "Ilsa, what's this poison for? There aren't any skavens around, and barghests can't be poisoned. Is it for yourself or for Mykul? Can't you think of some other way?"

But either she knew and didn't care, or she didn't care to know. In either case, what she did was wrong.

Seriously, do you both disagree with me that the girl wasn't justified in maybe seeking the death of the rapist/stalker(Abby could have thought this)?

Justified in what kind of ethical framework? Genocide is justifiable in some ethical frameworks. What you're proffering is "an eye for an eye" ethics -- the kind that leads to tit-for-tat killings, vendettas, ultimately wars that grind on for millennia. I don't think those are very solid ethical systems; ultimately, they're rationalizations for acts of vengeance and retribution rather than justice, let alone "goodness."

She could of tried to do what PJ said and live together but he is the law there and how long would that of last? :)

We can't know that, can we? What we do know is that the choices she did make ended up with the village mobbing up, ready to burn her at the stake -- and, due to Geralt's intervention, ultimately the slaughter of everyone in the village. In other words, even from a purely utilitarian ethical framework, it didn't work.

@PJ The politician and businessmen remark are an example of how people we look up to or work for manipulate people on a daily basis to achieve their goals (I'm not a fan of corporations or politics) and wasn't my standard for moral behavior :)

Precisely: the best thing about The Witcher is that we have perfectly believable, "regular" people doing extreme, even evil things -- simply because they're thrown into nasty circumstances and fail to rise above their failings as people. That's what evil in real life is almost always about -- not about some guy putting on spiky armor and building a really nasty-looking dark tower.

[magerette]

scavenhorde wrote:
The idolizing women statement wasn't a spelling error, it is a word. I put the comma in the wrong place. Anyways, it was a bad joke I have many of them and most of the time people don't get them. You'll have to forgive me when I attempt to be funny, I still can blame it on the whole semi-noob forum memember thing for now.

I'm often clueless about getting jokes, so no worries. There isn't a huge difference between idealizing and idolizing anyway...:)

Prime Junta has pretty much covered anything more I might want to say about Abby, but to answer your question, yes to me she was clearly the lesser evil. And my original feelings toward her were to be protective and helpful. In most rpg's that would be the extent of Abby's role. It says volumes about the Witcher that by the end of the game, my thoughts and feelings about her completely changed. I still think my Geralt would have made the same choice, though.

[skavenhorde]

I'm often clueless about getting jokes, so no worries. There isn't a huge difference between idealizing and idolizing anyway...:)


:) You're definatly right about idealizing and idolizing being totally different. Let's put it this way then I have a lot of respect for women. Espcially the one that puts up with me :D

This thread sorta took on a life of its own concerning Abby being evil and hey ACE what happend to you, I thought I was backing up your theory ;)

Anyways, what you guys said makes sense and if she really cared about the girl then she might of had second thoughts about selling the poison. Anyone who had morals would of thought twice about selling the poison to a distraught young woman (even if it might of been for those darn skaven) I think that and giving Alvin up were the two truly evil acts she did. She might of started out with good intentions with Alvin and maybe cared about the kid but when push came to shove, she dumped Alvin and headed for a hidey hole to escape the wrath of the mob.

Like mostly everyone else though I still would choose Abby over the mob every time. The definate lesser evil of the bunch.

[HiddenX]

What is evil, what is good ?

I think every person develops a very personal value system over the years - influenced by his family, school, milieu, religion, country, books and internet.

If I see someone (X) doing something (Y) - I always ask the internal question, what are the reasons and motives for X and what are the consequences of Y. I can then rate the motives, actions and consequences against my personal value system:

Unfortunately there are only two easy chains:
a) good motives / good action / good consequences -> good
b) evil motives / evil action / evil consequences -> evil

what about
c) good motives / good action / evil consequences -> ???
d) good motives / evil action / good consequences -> ???

and so on.

maybe even my personal value system is wrong and I have too adjust and learn.

To the Witcher:
The long discussion about Abby proves, that the developers of the Witcher did everything right. They created a wonderful ambiguous character, so that the players have to use their brain (value system!) to rate her.

[Corwin]

Some key areas of ethical philosophy explore just those ideas you raise, but seeing them in a computer game is still only a dream at this point in time, though from memory, PS-T tried to address some of them!!

[Acleacius]

You're conflating law and ethics.
True, since that is my job as a Witcher. :)

Abby is evil if she magicked Odo into killing his brother
Well I would have to agree with you Prime Junta, yet there is no evidence she did such a thing, except some drunk hick's claim, who doesn't have the slightest idea about magic or it's use. As I mentioned and afai can tell, she used the doll AFTER her lover's (Odo's brother) death to torment Odo's dreams because she was able to divine in someway Odo killed him and as the evidence points at least to me, Odo really killed his brother out of jealousy over Abby's love.

f she had a role in invoking the Hellhound. All of these things are suggested in the game
I disagree, we specificity know the Helllhound was created by the wicked deeds of the men and for the most part it's These Very Same Men suggesting these things. :)

She is guilty of these things if she did them, irrespective of whether we can prove that she did these things
Sounds good to me, yet there is NO evidence she did them only *The Accusations* she did them.

Then Magerette was right, you ARE idolizing women to the extend that you can't see their flaws even when they're pointed out to you.
Actually I just want something more as evidence than some drunk, dumbass, redneck telling me about magic dogs, mind spells and shit! hehe :)

Abigail could have tried to help her yet she didn't. Instead she provided the tools for the girl's death and that is not something a "Good" person does.
We don't know Abby didn't try to help, nor why she sold her the potion nor the mental state of the girl when she bought the potion. Of course if Abby did all these things the drunk, rapist, murderous *dumb ass rednecks* (DARs) said then of course Abby must be evil. Yet according to RW and GW the women are in the defense, *acting out of defense* so even if decide to believe the murderers and rapist, this Still Removes Evil from the equation.

PJ has already mentioned most of the reasons why Abigail is not a nice person at all.....no doubt in my mind that it was a choice of the lesser evil.
Understood, I just need evidence, not hearsay from a bunch of DARs, before I condemn a girl to be lynched. :)

The Squirrels are terrorists .....crush everyone not obedient to their Eternal Flame
That's true and why the king, I and the rest of the mostly imperfect beings of all races let them kill each other off. You are more than welcome to take sides if you wish it's your game, but I tried to RP it as a Witcher.
Additionally it's not being discussed because it's a big issue, afaik it's because it's interesting and if I am trying to be neutral in the GW or in RW either place I need at least *some* proof to kill a GUY or a girl and this just happens to be about a girl, eheh.

See in my solution no one was condemned to die, everyone had a chance to start over anew and *then* the true evil exposed itself and I knew (well at least to me, since others don't see it the same way) I had made the right choice. This was especially true when it came to these DARs seeing guilt where there was none, i.e. she's a Witch so she's guilty.
There is no doubt the Men caused the Beast, nor is there any doubt the Men tried to lynch a girl because of their own guilt and delusions.

She doesn't lose any sleep if some die through her actions
Just to be clear here, no one died from any of her actions, nor is there any info of this. Even if your referring to the girl, we have no way of knowing, what/why she told Abby she was buying the poison. Nor that Abby knew she would poison herself. If you decide to make this leap then it's a choice not based on info we have in the game, well at least I have seen so far, since no one has shown any.

Hey I am sure it might be a valid RP path to take, playing a more evil Geralt, I am mostly referring to in game info.

Abby is about what happens to people when they become victims,..........
Nicely put and I finally finished so you can talk about chap 4. :)
Actually I sort of like what happened in chap 4, even though I made me sad. It seemed to be one of Gearalt's most sincerely spoken in-game dialog lines and seemed so appropriate it's hard to believe it wasn't intended. The feeling and longing I heard in Geralt voice has only been matched in some of the Flashbacks and I don't recall it with any other girl.
Then Abby's response seemed mostly out of distrust/fear of men, as if she didn't expect or believe Geralt could/did cared for her, which is odd since it was at least one of Geralt's best acted lines.
You could be right they she was only using him, though I still really didn't feel that way. Too bad, the devs didn't give us more options to explore it or many of the characters in the game, it's defiantly a weakness of a predefined character and story.

[Cm]

What I find interesting is how compelling we have all found this aspect of the game. It is a true sign of immersion into the world of The Witcher and I see that gut reaction I had was felt by many.

[Acleacius]

(1) Just walk away.
Problem is that doesn't work in RL either, as women base relationships on intimacy, which men rarely have a grasp on. I.e ever hear of women staying with men/husbands/boyfriends that abuse them, even when friends, family, medical and law enforcement warn them?
Women measure themselves by their relationships and if Abby, according to my game was born and raised there, at often times it dire emotional situations like what happened in the game which force people to change.

(2) When the girl came to buy poison from her, she could have talked to her. Asked what's happened. Had a good cry with her
Again you don't know that didn't happen anymore than you know didn't happen.

(3) When asked to give up Alvin to the Reverend
You can't expect her to know everything you think you know, especially since it didn't happen. ;)

(4) With Odo and his brother..
Say, what? Odo killed her lover and quite possibly fiance, since the drunk ass DAR said she was trying to take all his money, i.e by marrying.


What Abigail sold the young girl was made for humans, ergo Abigail KNEW this was to be used to kill a human being
No way, where you get that info?

Only a really incompetent healer would mistake ..........
No one said she mistook anything, only offering possible realistic alternatives which have as much validity as your conjectures. The fact is that she could have come asking for poison with no intention of explaining or asking for Abby's advice. As I also mentioned it's much more likely given Abby's obvious respect for life since there is no evidence she ever took a life, unlike all the peoples whom are know to be guilty accusations.

Abigail KNEW what she sold the poor girl and she KNEW what it was to be used for.
Objection, Conjecture.

1) It wasn't necessary.......2) It would serve no purpose.
Where could she have run, how much money did she have, how many people did she have a choice to run to, how long would it take to get there and which was more dangerous route to take based on the money she had, means of travel?

Anyways, it was a bad joke I have many of them and most of the time people don't get them
Hehe, not so actually very funny. :)

can't justify her actions there.
Problem is nether can they justify her being able to leave, afaik no one knows what happened, there maybe the Reverend tricked her so he could get another kid to sacrifice for the salamandra. Actually it's the most likely senerio given what we know about each of the NPCs, so they are mostly just trying to justify lynching a her with no evidence. ;)

I believe that if there's one lesson great religious thinkers.......
That's most likely because you are an educated male, which she obviously didn't have the luxury of a formal education, while trying to dodge rapist, kidnappers and murderers. So even though you are well educated and have a good grasp of philosophy's nature of good and evil, you can't expect someone whom doesn't to act as you think they should. Not to mention you really don't seem to be accounting for the reality of the times portrayed, i.e. medieval times, woman traveling alone, most likely unable to defend herself or anyone to help her escape, those are realities, even today, in many places around the world.

So, in order to qualify as unambiguously "good," Abigail
Only if you were Abby.

I believe it's the latter.
Or as most people whom don't have control over most of how their life plays out, she did the best she could as an abused female, managing to learn a skill that also helped her defend herself and make enough money to survive.

*she could have asked.* That's all. "Ilsa, what's this poison for?
Maybe she did, which is as accurate and true as you saying she didn't, therefore conjecture, so even you conclusion is baseless.

Genocide is justifiable in some ethical frameworks.
None based on any type of Humanity, and certainly not one that has been verifiable as so, which makes it based on delusion.

ultimately the slaughter of everyone in the village.
Actually that turned out to be not true. In my last game, it seemed so weird so I went and checked every previously inhabited house, which did have some people, so the mob was only part of the village, even Abby is back at her hut.


This thread sorta took on a life of its own concerning Abby being evil and hey ACE what happend to you, I thought I was backing up your theory
Sorry about that, I was away for a few days and only checked new article for the 5 or 10 minutes I had free and btw your doing a great job, as an example it took me 30 minutes for the first post to catch up and another 30 for this second post still with 3 more post to reply to.
Hehe, wait till you see the next thread. :)


If I see someone (X) doing something (Y).........
Exactly and nicely put. :)

maybe even my personal value system is wrong and I have too adjust and learn.
Nope not at all you have a good system, because you can provide individual adaptive analysis.

The long discussion about Abby proves, that the developers of the Witcher did everything right. They created a wonderful ambiguous character, so that the players have to use their brain (value system!) to rate her.
That's true and I am beginning to think, their biggest mistake was using the wrong engine for a game design based on more non loading open world like Gothic, which would have allowed all their scripted scenes without the constantly forced loading for every little scenario or house.


PS-T tried to address some of them!!
Damn fine game, too bad we haven't had a graphics upgrade, which would let so many other people whom don't have any idea what or how good it was.

sign of immersion into the world of The Witcher
Very true, but it's still hard to beat immersed women in chocolate! :devilish:


It's nice to start over now that I have finished, with so many things to look out for after our debates.

[Prime Junta]

Again you don't know that didn't happen anymore than you know didn't happen.

That doesn't matter. If she did talk to her, that means she knowingly sold her the means to kill herself. If she didn't, that means she didn't care enough to find out. In either case, what she did was wrong.

Say, what? Odo killed her lover and quite possibly fiance, since the drunk ass DAR said she was trying to take all his money, i.e by marrying.

Hey, that would actually explain the Odo voodoo doll rather nicely: Abigail used her magic to get Odo to kill his brother, and was working on further using it to get him to marry her. Another quick death, and voilà, Abigail the rich and well-established leading woman of the village.

I'm still curious why you're so intent on beating this horse, though; I have a feeling it breathed its last a while ago.

Also, you're still treating this like it was a trial, presumptions of innocence and all, instead of trying to understand the character and motivations of a fictional character based on the cues left in by the writers of the fiction. I believe this is the reason we're talking past each other.

To recap, the game *implied* or *stated outright* the following about Abigail:

* That she had something to do with Odo's murder of his brother (the Odo voodoo doll).
* That she sold poison to a suicide candidate, either knowingly, or was callous enough not care what the poison was for.
* That she gave up Alvin to the Reverend to save her own skin, and didn't show much regret over it.
* That The Beast has been seen looking in her window (Odo). Also, barghests always appeared outside her house; they are attracted to evil.
* That she bartered sexual favors for services.
* The way she deals with Geralt in Chapter 4.
* And then there's her trading card (http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Sex_Abigail.jpg), of course.

Is there enough here to condemn her to death for something? Personally, I don't think so. But what kind of a character or personality do these things portray? Not someone who's very nice, in my opinion. A fighter, for sure, but someone who's fighting for herself rather than any larger cause, and someone who's not squeamish about the methods she uses in the fighting, or any damage she might cause to others through it.

[skavenhorde]

* And then there's her trading card (http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Sex_Abigail.jpg), of course.


Low blow with that trading card. I don't know what the artist or the devs were smoking when they decided "Hey, this depicts Abby perfectly."

PJ I know you probably only added that card in there as a joke but it was one of my pet peeves with the game. Not so much the cards but that card in particular. Last time I checked in the game Abby wasn't a succubus from hell or wiping blood all over herself and enjoying it.

[Jabberwocky]

I too thought the card was a little off-kilter. But maybe that's OUR false impression and that it does fit Abby's personality the way the devs invisioned?? I have to agree with PJ's conclusion using the evidence he just listed - seeing another way is possible for some I guess, but I just can't do it myself.

[Dusk]

I found many "testimonies" lack objective proofs.


* That she had something to do with Odo's murder of his brother (the Odo voodoo doll).

Odo may be simply taking out of his guilt. Also, we know Abigail can make potions but we are not sure of her other abilities. Even if Odo is right, was she able to manipulate him through the doll?


* That she sold poison to a suicide candidate, either knowingly, or was callous enough not care what the poison was for.
* That she gave up Alvin to the Reverend to save her own skin, and didn't show much regret over it.
These ones are confirmed by Abigail herself.


* That The Beast has been seen looking in her window (Odo). Also, barghests always appeared outside her house; they are attracted to evil.
Is it true? To me, they seem to have appeared everywhere in the village.

Abigail is promiscuous but, in my play, I couldn't find solid enough evidence to let her killed by the more or less promiscuous people in the village. The ambiguity is calculated so that the players would feel more involved in the story, looking into information provided and thinking more.

In any case, I wonder how some people can idealize women in this game. Even in the opening movie, it's Adda who managed to scratch Geralt although she couldn't even touch him in the form of the striga. Geralt may be effective against monsters but not so if they are among human-beings especially in the shape of women. Abigail is just one of women who try to exploit his weakness.

[Cm]

I thought that was our job in the world?? ;) I just had to say that..Sorry. lol

[Acleacius]

That doesn't matter. If she did talk to her,....
It does matter since based on your position this means any time she sells Poison, it's her fault for how it's used.

explain the Odo voodoo doll rather nicely
Lol, sure Abby was killing one so she could marry Odo then kill him too, weeee!

I'm still curious why you're so intent on beating this horse,
1. Not true, since it doesn't matter in theory if she used Odo to kill his brother as this accomplished, exactly Opposite of what she wanted according to Odo.
Odo clearly a waste of life doesn't do anything productive, shows up even at the lynching drunk and saying she was after his brothers money, as if he had a clue about anything, Clearly jealous, selfish, deluded and once again you base you position on the people whom are penetrating the evil. There is no evidence that Odo's brother ever caused Abby harm, but in fact seems quite possible they intrested enough in each other Odo believe his brother would marry Abby, which is certainly a reason to drive a drunk, lying, selfish and jealous piece of crap like Odo to premeditatedly kill his brother, that fool didn't need any spells cast on him.

2. Not true since you have no idea or nothing to base it on she is somehow required to question every person whom buys Poison. Did you let Abby know your rules and regulations before Ilsa? :)
Abby was clearly being successful selling ALL kinds of potions Healing and Poison, according to your theory anyone that sells a weapon which kills someone it's the retailers fault to know the intent of use and psychology of the weapon buyer, eheh.

3. Not true, there is no evidence she gave up Alvin, I just played it again and Alvin does Not say Abby gave me to the Reverend only, Reverend said there would be someone waiting to take me to Vizima. Hell this could have been the whole catalyst for the lynch mob, the Reverend could have threatened to kill her and Alvin, if she didn't give him Alvin.

4. Right if you were the Beast and your loving human girl master had acts of evil forced on her and you, including seeing you skinned alive at the very least, would you go to see her in your and her torment as she suffered as well? Abby was helpless as a child seeing her dog skinned alive and now the dog conscious of who and why he exist (per Alvin's ability to allow spirits to speak through him tells us) so of course if the Beast was born due to the evil put on him and Abby he would wish to see her.

5. Ok you lost me on this one, you mean that she offered herself to Harren if he would sell weapons to Soc tel? First your contradicting yourself iirc, once saying she didn't nothing to help, yet here she is either Tricking or giving herself to Harren to force him to help people instead of selling them to their deaths.

6. Ok, so she offers herself to Geralt ( who is NOT forced) he can refuse and still save her, no promises were made by either and then when Geralt is better than 80% chance married to either Triss or Shani, Abby senses this as women can. :)
Then takes the noble, non judgmental, non violent, non revenge, non hate, non evil approach saying, Look it was what it was and it's in the past. What a Witch! :p
Now from our point of view in RL (or at least mine) it was one of Geralt's most heartfelt lines, when he mentions the cave, but was I mad at Abby (the evil, murdering, sexual trickster)? No. Why? Becasue the devs designed the game with no choice for us to get to know her, either by trapping (just a figure of speech girls please don't throw pointy objects! :devilish: ) us in a marriage or didn' even offer the remotest possibility of us to have a chance with her, so once again I know lets all blame the Female Abby! :)

7. Yes, it's clear she's a naughty girl, whom needs a good spanking!

Abby wasn't a succubus from hell or wiping blood
Blood, dude you SO missed out, that was Strawberries and just the start, I get all tingly when I think about all the other fruits she crushed on her body! Oh man then the Potions! Hang on need to get a nice cold shower............................................ .................................................. ............. Damn I better stop talking about this. :faint:

[Acleacius]

Odo may be simply taking out of his guilt....
Exactly, it's called projection.

These ones are confirmed by Abigail herself.
Not in my game, just finished and have kept Saves, if I need to check.

Is it true? To me, they seem to have appeared everywhere in the village.
This is my take too, they seemed to have lost control, attacking anyone and everyone all over the village. The only reason that didn't attack children at this point in the game was due to the fact, devs can't have kids get killed if they want to sell their game to people under 17 or 18, so they put them inside.

it's Adda who managed to scratch Geralt although she couldn't even touch him in the form of the striga.
This is confusing to me, Adda scratched him but couldn't touch him as a Striga in the movie? Odd I don't remember a scratch. It's hard for me to see Abby as different or exploiting Geralt, they most all seem mutual and it's no different than any other girl interested in Geralt, afaik only the Blue eyed girl your forced to sleep with to complete a quest, but I really can't remember for sure, since like a pig I sleep with them all. :devilish:
Unless your point is all women use sex to weaken men's will, hehe.

I thought that was our job in the world??
:devilish: :dance: :party:

[skavenhorde]

I thought that was our job in the world?? ;) I just had to say that..Sorry. lol

I knew you were going to say that ;)

As for the rest you guys know how I feel. The hellhounds were everywhere, not just there because Abby was so evil.

Ace you gotta admit though that dropping Alivin off at the reverend's wasn't very nice. There is a whole bunch of different things she could have done.

Other than that and maybe selling the poison, I don't see her as evil. She is definatly living in the wrong town. Small minded people are so annoying you know when they try to lynch someone for being different. Well in the game they didn't exactly say lynch but same result, she would be dead.


@Ace mmmmm strawberries :biggrin:, didn't think of it like that. Still don't know why she is flying though lol.

[Dusk]

I thought that was our job in the world?? ;) I just had to say that..Sorry. lol
You mean, in this world? Do you happen to be infertile and immune to disease? ;)


This is confusing to me, Adda scratched him but couldn't touch him as a Striga in the movie? Odd I don't remember a scratch.
I meant Adda in the human (woman) shape. Just check out the last part of the movie.

[Acleacius]

Ace you gotta admit though that dropping Alivin off at the reverend's wasn't very nice.
That's the point though, we don't have any idea what or how it happened. She could have given Alvin to the Reverend because, he tricked her about Alvin or her safety. The problem is believing the Guilty about Abby without any evidence of anything, it's all just speculation, at least what I have seen so far.

The first thing that is Absolutely clear, the Reverend got Alvin with or without Abby knowing, with the sole intent to HARM Alvin, by selling/trading him to be a child sacrifice. The idea that Abby had any ill intent is purely speculation, completely contrary to everything Abby does and says in the game, with Geralt even getting her wrong, in a couple of points.

Secondly each person that accuses her has something to gain by doing so, yet each instance where Abby is accused of doing something evil, there isn't any evidence she would benefit. Example how would Abby benefit by hexing (if she can even do it) Odo to kill his brother, how does this get her anything?

It's far more likely Odo killed his brother out of resentment over his relationship with Abby, since only Odo would gain by his brothers death and once Odo killed him she tried to torment him with the doll, since even if you accept worst case of Abby trying to steal Odo's brother's gold, why the hell would Abby want him dead, she is better off with him alive.

So what you have is some people who have a lot to lose if their power is taken away to hide their evil deeds, blaming someone who has nothing to gain by doing the evil acts she is accused of.doing there is only accusation without substantive motive or fact.

Hell what if the Reverend kidnapped Alvin from her, once he found out she was gone or away, he clearly would do such a thing, since he is willing to steal children for sacrifice, right? Who you going blame the guilty or the scapegoat?

There is no evidence of Abby killing or intending to kill anyone and as a matter of fact, actually women usually support each other in these abusive situations. You can even hear her Regret that Ilsa was dead, yet the Reverend says Abby killed Ilsa even though he should have no idea how she died and he even mentions Poison.

Hehe, you get that? How could the Reverend possible know Ilsa was poisoned? Know any people whom, have no trouble blaming, killing or raping innocent women? Or possibly some people whom don't want anyone to find out they raped Ilsa? :)

Everyone of the men whom are so willing to blame Abby are doing so because she was the Only one who stood up to them and was a threat to their male dominated village of torture, rape, murder and ritual sacrifice of children. Just because Abby couldn't save Ilsa doesn't automatically make her guilty of killing her or responsible.

Still don't know why she is flying though lol.
Lol, say what? More importantly can I get some of whatever you smoking? :p

I meant Adda in the human (woman) shape. Just check out the last part of the movie.
Ahh, ok, thanks. I only saw it once but remember something about it. :)

Oh, btw looks like the theory about the Hellhound killing everyone even children is true. I forgot about the scene at the start of Outskirts where it tried to kill Alvin. I had a Save just after entering the Inn for the first time, so I didn't have to play Kaer Morden, again.

[Prime Junta]

The prosecution rests.

[Dez]

A good hearted woman wouldn't ever assist a depressed person to commit a suicide, Its like knowingly selling a gun to a person who is going to shoot himself in the head tommorrow, but money is money... So maybe abby is a bit evil.

Alvin case is a bit more complex. I got the impression that our good minister didn't excactly say please when he decided to look after alvin. Abby may not be all good, but she wouldn't harm a child.

Abby is a witch, but she can't make anyone to commit a murder. Heck why is she hiding in that cave if her powers are so great as villagers claim? She said thought that she was preparing some kind of spell, but I don't think it would have helped her much... Her magic was more show than real. Sure she knew poisons and healing, but controlling someone's mind demands a bit more..Even real mages can't do something like that.

Besides I can't let bunch of ignorant zealots lynch a helpless woman without a proper trial or real evidence of her actions.

[skavenhorde]

T
Lol, say what? More importantly can I get some of whatever you smoking? :p



Oh never mind LOL, It's the weird position she is in. She's sorta standing or well kneeling on her tippie toes. Made me think she was floating for some reason or I was just having flashbacks :p

[Acleacius]

The prosecution rests.
Don't rest till you finish your Sakebomb! :party:
Too bad we don't have a Sakebomb emote.

A good hearted woman wouldn't ever assist a depressed person to commit a suicide......So maybe abby is a bit evil.
That could be a way to look at extreme cases on both sides, yet still without anything in the way of knowing.
Her character seemed very cooperative with Geralt trying to help in every circumstance without regard for money (unless it was something that took objects like a potions or ingredients), which only Geralt's closest friends have done, iirc. She acted no different than any alchemist/merchant, never did I get questioned as Geralt how I intended to use ingredients capable of killing by any of any kind and 99.9% of them were less giving and helpful than Abby. Ahmm that includes before the cave. ;)

. Heck why is she hiding in that cave if her powers are so great as villagers claim?
Exactly, afaik she was making a large stink or nauseous bomb, Geralt even said something like "there's lots of stink and crap in your brew".

Btw way it was very funny when she attempted to teach Geralt (for free I might add) potion using Seven ingredients, since he was limited to Five. Saying something like "umm that's to complicated" then she laughed and said "Ha! I knew it! :biggrin:

May be she assumed that Alvin would be given to a foster family?
True, that could have been his whole scam on getting children.

Oh never mind LOL
Kinky, naughty girls like their toes dipped in strawberries and weird positions! :devilish:

[fatBastard()]

Okay look people, this attempt to make Abi a saint is going to far.

And we don't even have evidence, that Abby knew, what the reverend would do to the child. May be she assumed that Alvin would be given to a foster family?
Are you telling me that Abigail didn't know that the Reverend was the leader of the group of people trying to get rid out to get her? One might explain and excuse her giving Alvin away to almost anyone else, but to give the boy to her arch enemy? Come on, there is no excuse for that.

@ Acleacius: I find it a bit disturbing how quick you are to pass judgment on Odo and the others considering how adamant you've been that there is no proof that Abigail is anything but a saint.

What proof is there that Mikuel raped Ilsa? None, only the accusation uttered by Abigail. What proof is there that Odo WASN'T hexed by Abigail to kill his brother? None.

You seem awfully quick to condemn a "drunk, lying, selfish and jealous piece of crap like Odo" based on nothing but hearsay ... could it be because he is a man?

"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" is not just a saying you know. Just because you're a cute little redhead with batting eyelashes and a huge cleavage doesn't mean that you can't be a plotting, conniving, evil little witch as well. Abigail recognized Geralt as a Witcher the moment he stepped through the door and she quickly realized that she could ask for no better ally than a Witcher so she started playing him like a fiddle and look what happened. I'm pretty certain that most people here on the Watch chose to side with her against the mob for one reason or another.

Now, the fact that CD Project chose to create this story element without any black and white solutions and without any clear evidence to support one faction over the other so that your job isn't to gather clues to WIN a trial but to force you to make a DECISION just goes to show what a great job they did IMO.

[Prime Junta]

What proof is there that Mikuel raped Ilsa? None, only the accusation uttered by Abigail.

Come to think of it, Mykul's reaction when he heard of Ilsa's death wasn't what I'd have expected from a heartless rapist.

[Cm]

Now, the fact that CD Project chose to create this story element without any black and white solutions and without any clear evidence to support one faction over the other so that your job isn't to gather clues to WIN a trial but to force you to make a DECISION just goes to show what a great job they did IMO.

I think that says it all. The purpose and the method used have drawn us all into the game hook, line and sinker, and the real story of the game has not even started yet. The mood is set, the stage lights struck, and the show is now about to begin in earnest. ;)

[Acleacius]

Okay look people, this attempt to make Abi a saint is going to far.
Hehe, yes because when your Not Evil, your a Saint. ;)

Are you telling me that Abigail didn't know that the Reverend was the leader of the group of people trying to get rid out to get her?
Are you saying she did?

I find it a bit disturbing how quick you are to pass judgment on Odo
Lol, come on, he confesses to murdering his own brother, how is that passing unfair judgment? :p


This isn't really a spoiler only a joke which can and should be skipped if your offended by me making fun of a certain hick, here in the US. :)
Am I a'spose to believe some dimwitted, drunk, dumbass, illiterate fool could run a country.....errr (sorry ;) ) understand voodoo, magic and hexes enough to know someone forced him to kill his brother, yet not enough to stop it? HE is the only one who could benefit by the death and Not mention he sought out assassin/murder lessons, is that part of the hex too, edumacation? :biggrin:

What proof is there that Mikuel raped Ilsa?
Maybe you didn't notice or you possibly have a different definition of proof? While the Spirit spoke through Alvin, he said "plow her, show her your a man". The rape gang that Mikul was with when she was gang raped was the same one who tried to rape Shani. Saying "let's do what we did to Mikul's girl Ilsa". Then Mikul's responses are pretty clear, he automatically knew who the girl was without Geralt doing anything but saying "a young girl's body in the crypt". Admittedly, I am not sure about Mikul's apology at the gate to chap 2, it could have been for raping her or for getting Geralt arrested, though Geralt seemed to think it was a confession, saying apologize to Ilsa.

better ally than a Witcher so she started playing him like a fiddle and look what happened.
Oh I see now every things Abby's fault, hehe. How dare she (if we take your position) try to get help killing a Beast on a rampage killing children, women and men. Remember it was the Reverend pushing the investigation not Abby, she was only helping Geralt.

without any clear evidence to support one faction over the other so that your job isn't to gather clues
Well we have different definitions of evidence and Witchers, since my understanding is while Witchers aren't perfect it's their job to protect humans and *root out the guilty* according to what Geralt even says in the game, iirc.

Come to think of it, Mykul's reaction......
True, he was maybe just someone caught up in a crowd of rape gang'ers (if he wasn't a card carrying member), possibly drunk or too stupid to know better. He is played as very uneducated. Yet the point isn't is Mikul evil, though it could certainly be worth talking about, but is Abby evil.

[Acleacius]

My guess or opinion about the way Abby's magic works beyond her Potions and Healing, is a possible power to divine the past to some degree, since I have never her seen her indicate she could see the future. Yet most people positioning themselves on the Abby is evil side, seem to think she could divine the future by several of the statements. While I am not claiming there is hard evidence it's just my feel, which I think explains a lot about her actions always seem to be reactionary and responding instead of being an instigator.

[fatBastard()]

Yes, I think I can see now how you could come to the conclusion that Abigail is a Saint when it would appear that you're deliberately misunderstanding what is being said.

Are you saying she did?
How could she NOT know WHO is the most outspoken person about her "vile nature"? She is NOT stupid you know.

Lol, come on, he confesses to murdering his own brother, how is that passing unfair judgment?
Yes well, it is Abigail who delivers the line "lesser evil", yet you never once called her anything like "a drunk, lying, selfish and jealous piece of crap". Somehow, HER sins are understandable, reasonable and forgivable, the others ... well, they're just scum of the earth deserving eternity in the company of brimstone and hellfire.

... benefit by the death ... assassin/murder lessons ...
While we're at the unlikely explanations: Could it be that Odo is drinking out of sorrow for the loss of his brother and that he sought lessons in an attempt to impress his brother by his knowledge when his physique wouldn't allow him to be a warrior? Likely? No. Possible? Just as possible as Abigail not knowing what the poison was for or that giving Alvin over to the Reverend was not in the boys best interests, etc.

The point of the matter is that nobody is refuting the PROBABLE guilt of the villagers. We're all pretty certain that these louts are a worse choice than Abigail is but as some of us have tried to point out: CD Project have made the characters as real as they could and that means that there are no Devils or Saints, just like in the real world. We all have a dark side (though some, like Cm, are more attuned to this dark side than others ;)

Anyway, if you choose to put things into black and white boxes where the logic of if A > B then B = 0 must apply then nothing we can say will change your mind ... however, even though the villagers, IMO, ARE the greater evil of the two sides it sure as heck doesn't mean that Abigail is a Goody Two-Shoes.

[Acleacius]

come to the conclusion that Abigail is a Saint when it would appear that you're deliberately misunderstanding what is being said.
Hehe, ok if you say so, that's honestly confusing since I am listing specific examples in the game, unless I mention otherwise. Nor am I claiming I have 100% accurate memory of everything they said, but I think for the most part it's pretty dang close. :)

How could she NOT know WHO is the most outspoken person
I don't recall this, seems a different subject, so now Abby is saying something about *lesser evil* and this has something to do with me calling the DAR's, DARs? Even though I have no idea what your talking about and only going to say this based on what I see you writing.
They chose to attack, as Geralt I offered them a chance to start over and repent. I only defended myself and Abby who clearly has no verifiable evidence against her, unlike the men. Who btw, want her dead only to sate their personal guilt and are hiding behind the idea of killing Abby, will kill the Beast so Let all go kill us a Witch, so they try to murder her. Based on your words without having an idea what this is in reference to, sounds like your defending this position of the DARs. :)

While we're at the unlikely explanations:
Yes I agree your really not offering any explanations at least above just allegations! :)
The Salamandra say Odo came to them to learn how to kill his brother and they laughed at him, saying a drunk and weak fool wouldn't have a chance. Possibly I remember them even saying only if you did it while he slept.
Once again your assuming Abby questioned everyone about any item and further more it was her responsibility, if not it's her fault and she's evil. Yet you have no foundation to base this on since you haven't provided a single example in the game where this is a factor, any Vendor asking questions about how their gear would be used by Geralt. Your not trying to be biased for the men are you? :biggrin:

there are no Devils or Saints, just like in the real world.
Possibly, yet again it comes down to personal perceptions or conceptual continuity and I am not referring to this in a religious sense, as words are not owned by those whom would claim them.

logic of if A > B then B = 0 must apply then nothing we can say will change your mind
Afaik, I am the one using logic and examples, while not relying on a PR phrase, then trying to make a situation fit based on idealism or propaganda. I have used RL and GL examples, yet I have been open to many suggestions and trying to run them through my experience. Even stating which Dialog setting I was using and acknowledging the Polish version is most probably the most accurate and if you think I wouldn't want to learn more about the game your wrong. This whole exercise it with the intent of learning about the game. :)

Maybe you didn't know but here in the US we had problems with false religious christan cults and zealots, you know the ones you guys kick out of EU cause they were F*cking nutz!
Puritans (iirc) burning women, here because they were accused of being Witches. These poor girls subjected to inhumane treatment at the hands of religious zealot men, being questioned for days without sleep till they just said anything to be left alone or make the pain stop, you know TortureD. While without fail there has never been a recorded case that had any verifiable proof, yet the women were killed.

I have listed previous examples of RL and GL statistical verifiable information on women, violence, men and male dominated social structures, even including an average of the chance it could be a woman fault, so I am not sure why your claiming logic. :)

[fatBastard()]

Ï think I see what you're doing now. You're taking what you see in the game and ONLY what you see in the game and base your reasoning on this. The problem with that approach is that, just like in real life, the rest of the world doesn't stand still when the Witcher is busy elsewhere. It may often appear that way in computer games, but not in The Witcher.

The mob didn't just come out of nowhere. They never do. A mob is like a stew. First you add one ingredient, then another, then some salt, then you stir it a bit, add some stuff, stir again, and slowly the brew heats up until it is finally boiling. In the game Abigail doesn't leave her hut and the Reverend stays at his church/house and Odo stays at his hut/garden but you have to see beyond that and picture this as a real village. Abigail may keep to herself but she still needs to go shopping and I'm sure she's received plenty of murmured insults and malicious stares over the weeks/months/years.

Had the Reverend been trying to be shadow leader that commands his flock but does so incognito through a second in command I could accept that Abigail wouldn't know who is behind the movement against her but seeing how the Reverend runs everything else, he has never tried to hide his contempt towards Abi and THAT is why it is impossible for Abigail NOT to know who and what the Reverend is and THAT is why it is inexcusable for her to deliver Alvin into his hands.

In the case of the "potion vendor" argument, you're again seeing this as a game mechanic instance rather than seeing it as a real world situation. The Witcher is not being questioned about what he intends to do with his new sword or where he acquired the assassin's dagger or Order Sword he is trying to sell because:

1) the developers knew that when you go shopping 50-100 times throughout the course of the game any unnecessary dialog would become an annoyance real quick. (Game argument)

2) Geralt is a Witcher. Any vendor already knows what a Witcher does with his weapons. (Real life argument)

3) YOU are playing Geralt, so it is up to YOU to decide how to use your equipment and though some of Geralt's close friends may (and do) question his methods, it is not up to no-name NPCs to do so. (both GL and RL argument)

If you go to the doctor and asks for a Cyanide pill you're going to receive a strange look and a no. If you go to a pharmacist asking for a Cyanide pill you'll be asked to hand over the prescription the doctor wouldn't give you. If you buy the ingredients to make your own Cyanide pill you can do so but even so most shops selling the stuff needed to make, let's say, Nitroglycerin will react if you purchase all of the base ingredients at once. Ilsa didn't ask to buy the ingredients for the poison, she bought the poison finished and ready to go.

Now, without going into too many details let's just say that having been there myself long ago I know that when you're seriously considering suicide you're NOT in a state of mind where you can nonchalant walse into the doctor's office and ask for the means to your own death without having a somewhat skilled doctor detect something is wrong (unless you're a clinical psychopath, but then again psychopaths usually don't kill themselves). People as desperate as Ilsa cannot help but send out signals that Abigail MUST have picked up and therefore must have KNOWN that Ilsa would use the poison to kill herself. But of course, if you only perceive Abigail as a vendor with a buy button and an inventory, then that explains why you defend her actions in this case.

By the way, let me just make this absolutely clear: I HATE religious fanatics with a passion that borders on fanaticism itself. I can't stand it when someone chooses an ancient text over their common sense on important issues. Consequently, it didn't take me more than 30 seconds to utterly dislike the Reverend and I knew I would never support anything the idiot said or did. Furthermore, yes I believe Odo killed his brother out of either jealousy or greed or possibly both and yes, I believe Haram (Harad? I can't remember his name right now) is out to get Abigail because she's got some information about him he doesn't want to be revealed and yes I do believe that Mikuel did indeed rape Ilsa (although given his rather limited mental capabilities I doubt he was the instigator). So NO I'm not in anyway defending their actions. However, even though, given the choice of who to stop, the serial killer or the drug lord, I would choose the serial killer any day of the week, that doesn't mean that the drug lord is without guilt. It just means that the alternative is worse.

For you to view women in general in such high esteem I would guess that either you haven't had much experience with the fairer sex or else that I must have had some real rotten luck with the ones I've encountered. :[

Women are no better or worse than men. Sure, they're much less prone to violence than men but on the other hand they're much more scheming and plotting than men usually are.

For the record: I thing Prima Junta's description of Abigail as a survivor with no or little concern about who gets hurt in the process is a pretty accurate depiction of the Abigail I saw in the game.

[Acleacius]

The mob didn't just come out of nowhere
Damn, I am hungry! :)
Sure, Abby even mentions as such several times, talking about Alvin she mentioned they probably think she will eat him.

Had the Reverend been
I actually see the Reverend has run out of options of course there probably was an uneasy peace and the Reverend was clearly aware of the evil that had happened to Abby. Yet this is what people do whom leadership is based on lies, power and injustice blame others for their own incompetence. Why would anyone follow the Reverend if he says the Eternal Flame will protect them and it doesn't? The only way he could hold on to his power is to find someone to blame if he can't protect them. It's clear he got his leadership position based on lies, so like any conman he rides the high tide and blames others during the low tide. Hell he doesn't care if most of the mob dies as long as he remains in power.
Hell he never even brought up Abby till the Eternal Flame didn't work.

In the case of the "potion vendor" argument,
Thats fine, as long as we are clear your using a double standard.

People as desperate as Ilsa cannot help but send out signals that Abigail
Maybe you misunderstand me I am not trying to tell you or anyone how to play your game you can RP it anyway you want. However to claim Abby is evil as I mentioned in the first post and beyond, as something that is verifiable is not possible at least i have seen. You or I can read anything or everything we want into and yes I am going by what is in the game not why my, your or anyone's imagination can think of as that would be better in a thread called, "Abby Love her Hate her" or Abby the true story, a fan fiction. :)

I HATE religious fanatics with a passion that borders on fanaticism itself.
Yeah true they are at the very least, annoying little buggers!

the serial killer or the drug lord
Lol. drug lord.

For you to view women in general in such high esteem
Hehe, I doubt I am any luckier or unluckier with women than any other guy and just cause you can stand up for them in general, sure doesn't mean you understand them. :p

Boring statics below.
As I said those are really RL stats, while I don't pretend to speak for women you have to realize they have been/are subjected to a large degree all over the world.
As an example here in the US women still don't have equal rights, if it wasn't so sad I would laugh. During WW2 they proved they could do the same work as men for the most part and were mostly responsible for creating the middle class, which is what makes any nation strong. Fighting an uphill battle against sexist, racist, bigoted and deluded males (like the Reverend) every step of the way. First the bastards were in the democratic party till 1965 since then they moved to the republican party where they have resided every since.
The republican party has been undermining women with legislations since 1968 and the 12 remaining states needed to ratify women as Constitutionally Equal under the Equal Right Amendment are currently in the hands of southern racists republicans whom used to be southern racist democrats, iirc. Here is the cry/laugh part women have been voting for these fools, it's as if women have gone to sleep or lost it. :cries:
Honestly it's not really all their fault they have been propagandized, into many things due to the fascist/corporate media in this country. Most recently to two major attacks against women have been a phony attempt to privatize Social Security System and the Bankruptcy bill. Women are much more likely to live longer, be left with children after a divorce, care for elderly relatives, forced to file bankruptcy due to these and medical long term illnesses of the family members they as care for them,not to mention more likely to be in poverty the list is pretty endless.

I mentioned in this thread previously I used to teach women's and children's self defense, so I heard a few stories.
I have this silly little notion, that since women base most their decisions on social consciousness instead of egos like we guys, if they were equal the world might be a better place. ;)

For the record: I thing Prima Junta's description of Abigail as a survivor with no or little concern about who gets hurt in the process
Sounds good as RL option, though I certainly couldn't see anything in the game that makes that case. :)

[Jabberwocky]

Let me just say that I think this thread has set a new record for longest pointless debates of all time... :p

Can ya'll stop posting already? 'Cause I'm getting tired of all the e-mail notifications! ;)

[Acleacius]

Hey don't talk about evil Abby that way, she's the meanest, toughest, two fisted potion slinger in the west and she will put the evil eye hex on yo'ass! :p

Lol, I have never gotten email notification about threads. I can see how that would be annoying, doh!

[Corwin]

Email notification is an option you can turn off, or on. Just one more service we provide!! :)

[Jabberwocky]

Yeah Corwin, it works great! .... Except for threads like this one. :brood: ;)

[fatBastard()]

So basically you're saying that you're tired of receiving mails for unimportant comments like this one? :biggrin::devilish:

[Jabberwocky]

Dangit! YOu're worse than all the people that text message me for stupid reasons! ;)

[magerette]

You need to unsubscribe to the thread dude--go to your profile /pm area and uncheck the box and you will no longer be harassed by evil beings making nonsensical posts. :)

[Acleacius]

How cruel, evil and Abby'esque of you guys and gals to spam Jabberwocky's email account!
Abby indeed would be proud. :happycry:

[skavenhorde]

Hi guys just wanted to say hi ;) LMAO ohhh this is so evil of some of you to keep attacking Jabberwocky's email. You guys should be ashamed:rotfl:

[zahratustra]

Apologies for a late entry when the debate is almost over but I have come across this thread only today. Many very interesting opinions guys and galls.
Just two cents from me:
1- Abby lied to Geralt about Mikul being a rapist since, during the fight in the inn, one of Salamandras states: "Let's do to her (Shani -z) what we have done to Mikul's girl. She was a screamer!"
2- don't want to post a spoiler but, just as a experiment, try to side with villagers and see what will happen....

[Jabberwocky]

@ Zahratustra: Unless, of course, Mikul was also among that group in the first place. Unlikely, true, but possible...

Well, if my e-mail account charged me for every message I get like text messaging does, maybe I would fool with unsubscribing to this thread. As it stands, I hate to spoil everyone's fun, but it is only a minor annoyance. :)

[zahratustra]

And if I told you that Abigail isn't whom she pretends to be?

[Jabberwocky]

Yes yes. I understand. It's all subjective.

[Prime Junta]

I tried siding with the villagers. Something interesting did happen. I lost the fight against the Beast, though, and did something to nuke my savegame so would you mind spoiling me if I missed anything?

[zahratustra]

LOL I have no idea if you missed anything or not. I have invited people to try to side with villagers simply because, if you do, Abby will (before she dies) curse you in the name of Lionhead Spider. If you already haven't guessed from visiting Lionhead Spider Crypt in Chapter II (or haven't read Last Wish) let me tell you that Lionhead Spider is worshipped by a powerfull sect of necromancers. So our Abby isn't your average village witch at all! She is a necromancer (does her "heart" card make more sense now?) and necromancers aren't widely known as healers or fantasy equivalent of social workers :biggrin:

[Jabberwocky]

SEE??!!! I knew she was evil!! LOL....

What we have to remember, in all seriousness, is that The Witcher universe exists in either one form or another, not both at the same time. In other words, it is what we make of it. By the decision to think of Abby 'evil' in my play-through in itself makes her evil. But in another play-through I may choose to see things differently, and she is therefore 'good' in that universe. I think that is a fundemental mechanic of this debate that people are forgetting. - This game world is what you make of it. Whether the devs had a particular idea in mind when creating the characters, it ultimately rests with your own imagination to decide what 'makes them tick.'

[zahratustra]

I agree Jabberwocky. I don't think that Geralt would consider necromancer as being evil automatically and without exceptions. Besides, what does "being evil" really mean? In Temeria Witchers are considered evil by many.

[Prime Junta]

Yup, that was the interesting thing I had in mind.

I wonder how Acleacius will be able to explain *that* away?

[Dusk]

Lionhead Spider and the Eternal Flame are enemies but I don't think the game supposes which is good and which is evil. Considering the the Reverend belongs to Eternal Flame, Abigail may have some political or religious motivation, though. The beauty of the design seems to be that we have to decide things based on the limited amount of knowledge and that some things remain unexplained depending on our actions, just like our experiences in our worlds. As I said before, it must be tough to review this game within a limited time.

[zahratustra]

Right you are Dusk :) Abigail would have a very good (or very bad) reason to use Geralt to destroy Reverend. But does Revered know that Abby is Lionhead Spider or does he generally dislike what she does?

[Dusk]

But does Revered know that Abby is Lionhead Spider...?
Personally, I don't think the Rev knows that since he would accuse her of being a member of such organization more openly. You can find some discussions related with this topic in the Side Quest thread (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?&t=3620) just in case you haven't notice it yet.

[Acleacius]

I have been off the board for about a week, yeah I know it's probably been really peaceful in my absence. :p

And if I told you that Abigail isn't whom she pretends to be?
Ahh, well then I won't even bother replying to your first post since your admitting to an assertion. So I am guessing you missed some of the posts since the focus is the search for anything substantial. ;)

bby will (before she dies) curse you in the name of Lionhead Spider
We had talked about this some before, what exactly happens to Geralt due to the Lionhead Spider curse and what is should happen?

SEE??!!! I knew she was evil!! LOL....
Lol, your so easy! :p

I don't think that Geralt would consider necromancer as being evil automatically and without exceptions.
Well for example which Necromancer skills did Abby display?

I wonder how Acleacius will be able to explain *that* away?
Hehe, same way I did last time, show me the Necromancer abilities she posesses, if she really is one? ;)

we have to decide things based on the limited amount of knowledge
Exactly. :)

But does Revered know that Abby is Lionhead Spider or does he generally dislike what she does?
It would be his sworn duty to kill her but he never mentions it at all, even when his evil deeds have been pointed out.

In regards to your previous comment that "In Temeria Witchers are considered evil by many." , anyone can make assertions, but evil isn't hard to pin down, again like the Lionhead we talked about evil in this or another thread. Being evil is the intent to do harm to others for self benefit, not complicated at all. :)

[zahratustra]

I have also said: "I don't think that Geralt would consider necromancer as being evil automatically and without exceptions. Besides, what does "being evil" really mean?"

But our Abby could have put a curse on Odo especially that, when addressing Odo, Geralt notices: "Figurine in her hut looked like you" (quote from memory).

[titus]

fjew I read the whole topic. Abby evil? yes
but in an understandeble way. If you went trough what she did, you wouldn't be so nice anymore.
I do have the feeling most are looking it from a good & evil prospective from now, but you have to see it from the world of the witcher (more or like comparable to the middle ages). and then well it was a dangerous time for women.
The poison? one of the only things you can blame her.
Alvin? we don't know why she gave him away, maybe she thought it would be better for the boy. She knew the priest, but did she knew the priest was in cahoot with the salamandre? no. don't think so
ODO? I do believe he is a selfish dronkard who really killed his brother out of jealousy, but I never saw that odo doll everyone is speaking of.
the dog attracted to eveil? yes, but also I have to agree with the story of the "former owner of the dog" and besides at ODOs place and at the reverand there were also always dogs.
and a witchhunt on her? not to approve
I choose the lesser of two evil because I believe that is what geralt would do too.
But i choose the line of who am i, because my geralt is a casanove :p