Unofficial Best of RPG and RPG Series of the forum

[Dasale]

There's an absolute marvelous thread in this forum : "Top 10 CRPGs of all time (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=727)". It's a mix of:
- A sweet nostalgia breeze coming from the good old past,
- A glorification of how great, important and cool are CRPG ( :biggrin: )
- A source of adrenalin excitement about CRPG of all time.
- It's a dreamy list of all the future greatest CRPG you'll have to play (it doesn't matter if they are old or if you'll not like them, at the time you read the posts they are your future and still great in your imagination).

So after to have read it fully 2 times I was looking for a good reason to read it a third time. And I got the idea (from some post in the thread), for the fun, makes a top from the posts of this thread.

Just for the fun, to pick up games, no average can worth any single opinion, apart eventually if you consider yourself as totally average with zero asperity. :biggrin:

Before put the various top I got from this thread, some rough numbers :

- 80 people vote for 153 different RPG, in fact more RPG has been quoted, 153 is those that got at least 0.5 point from a vote.
- Only 2 people submit a second time their vote, I took the last version only.
- Many people voted for an unnamed RPG, they list the numbers from 1 to 10 but omit one number in the series, I bet it's a vote for the unnamed RPG, certainly not people that haen't yet learn to count. :p
- The first vote was by Gokyabgu the 23 november 2006, the last I counted by SacrificiaLamb the 13 december 2007.

[Dasale]

So first top, the top 30 of the CRPG :

This top bellow includes all votes. To get the top 30 with votes only from the ancients of the forum, looks here (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showpost.php?p=60424&postcount=17).

Version EDITED after few correction :
269,5 Baldur's Gate 2
230,5 Gothic 1
225,5 Planescape Torment
206 Gothic 2
186 Fallout 2
171 Fallout 1
133,5 Ultima 7
126,5 Morrowind
108,5 Wizardy 8
99,5 Baldur's Gate 1
98,5 Kotor 1
96,5 Arcanum
85 Ultima Underworld 1
81 Neverwinter Night 1
77,5 Deus Ex
74 Realms of Arkania II
72 Betrayal at Krondor
70 Daggerfall
67 Vampire Bloodlines
66 Gothic 3
64,5 Ultima Underworld 2
58,5 Baldur's Gate 2: Throne of Bhaal
58 Icewind Dale 1
51,5 Ultima 4
49,5 Divine Divinity
47,5 Wizardy 7
46,5 Dungeon Master 1
45,5 System Shock 2
45 Might and Magic 6
43,5 Ultima 5

[Dasale]

The second top is the top 10 of the RPG series :

Version EDITED after few correction:
Gothic 517,5
Ultima 483
Baldur's Gate 431
Fallout 357
Elder Scroll 235
Wizardy 187,5
Neverwinter Nights 141,5
Might&Magic 138
Realms of Arkania 130,5
Kotor 136,5

[Dasale]

Now the question is how I extracted those tops from this thread : Top 10 CRPGs of all time (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=727).

The basic rule is sample, people should post their top 10, so the 1st got 10 points, the 2nd got 9 points and so on. So only the 10th in the list got 1 points, for post with more than 10 RPG listed, the 11th and bellow got zero point.

Some people couldn't decide from different RPG from the same series and even sometimes between different RPG. When a vote is clearly for 2 different RPG, I gave them 2 places in the top and shared the sum of the points, those bellow in the list are pushed more bellow. Cough cough, an example will be more clear :
This vote :
1 - Fallout 1 & 2
2 - Gothic 2

Gives :
1 and 2 : Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 = (10+9)/2 = 9.5 points for each.
3 : Gothic 2 = 8 points

Another special case is for people that mention their vote is in no particular order:
- When this is mentioned but the list is numbered, I took it as a normal sorted vote.
- When this is mentioned but the comments clearly state an order (I saw 2 cases), I took it as a normal sorted vote.
- When this is mentioned, the list isn't numbered and the comment doesn't mention clearly an order, then I took the whole list (once it was 22 RPG!) divided the maximum number of points, 55 by the number of RPG in the list. And I rounded the resulting number to the nearest lower 0.5. Then attribute the numer to each CRPG in the list. Some samples:
11 RPG : 55/11 = 5 point for each of the 11 RPG.
12 RPG : 55/12 = 4.58 = 4.5 point for each of the 12 RPG.
14 RPG : 55/14 = 3.92 = 3.5 point for each of the 14 RPG.

Another rule, when for a series, just the generic name is given without to mention it's the series nor any number, I count it as a vote for the first in the series. Example:
1. Ultima
2. Wizardy

Gives :
1. Ultima 1 = 10 points
2. Wizardy 1 = 9 points

In case of big followup in a series that are clearly another game even if it's a big addon or a close followup, example : Ultima 7 Black Gate and Serpent Isle, or Baldur's Gate 2 and BG2: ToB. I considered an explicit mention of the two as two votes for 2 different games. For example:
1. Baldur's Gate 2 (with ToB)
2. Divine Divinity

Gives:
1 and 2: Baldur's Gate 2 and Baldur's Gate 2: ToB = (10+9)/2 = 9.5 points for each.
3: Divine Divinity = 8 point.

One special case is for Gothic 2 and its add on NOTR. As this add on is mainly an improvement of G2 more than a big extension, I counted it as a single game, no difference between Gothic 2 and Gothic 2 with NOTR. Except in 2 votes that used 2 places for those, so for those :

1. Gothic 2 with NOTR
2. Ultima Underworld 1
and so on with no more mention of Gothic 2.

Gives :
1. Gothic 2 = 10 points
2. Ultima Underworld 1 = 9 points.

But:
1. Gothic 2 with NOTR
2. Ultima Underworld 1
3. Gothic 2

Gives:
1. Gothic 2 with NOTR = 10 points
2. Ultima Underworld 1 = 9 points
3. Gothic 2 = 8 points

Well I think I gave the full list of rules I used to make the tops from the thread.

EDIT: Yes I forgot two rules, few people make votes like this :
1. Ultima series (7 is my best)
2. Gothic series (1 is my favorite
3. Dungeon Master (1 is better)

Gives :
1. Ultima 7 (not Serpent Isle but Black Gate) = 10 points
2. Gothic 1 = 9 points
3. Dungeon Master 1 = 8 points

And another rule for a special case for World of Xeen:
1. World of Xeen
2. Neverwinter Nights 2

Gives:
1 and 2 : Might & Magic 4 and Might & Magic 5 = (10+9)/2 = 9.5 points for each.
3 : Neverwinter Nights 2 = 8 points

[Maylander]

Rather interesting actually, although I have to admit I'm not really surprised by the results. One of the closest lists I've seen to my own personal top list, even closer than what I would have expected.

[Arma]

Hmmm, care to give the rest of the numbers? I'm particularly interested in how a few other games scored.

Good rules btw, though, not trying to be overly critical, a few of the rules need a tuning.
In case of big followup in a series that are clearly another game even if it's a big addon or a close followup, example : Ultima 7 Black Gate and Serpent Isle, or Baldur's Gate 2 and BG2: ToB. I considered an explicit mention of the two as two votes for 2 different games. For example:
1. Baldur's Gate 2 (with ToB)
2. Divine Divinity

Gives:
1 and 2: Baldur's Gate 2 and Baldur's Gate 2: ToB = (10+9)/2 = 9.5 points for each.
3: Divine Divinity = 8 point.

I disagree that we can count BG2 ToB as a stand alone title. While I can't argue about the two Ultima 7-s, as those I think we released independant from one another, Throne of Bhaal is an expansion, never mind it is an entirely different chapter in the story. IF it was stand-alone, we could count it as a separate game, but since it is not, I believe it's proper place is with the core BG2 (many people do believe it to actually be one game and two, nevermind how exactly it was written in their post).

And there should be a better rule for someone who posted more than 10 numbered titles in the list, similar to people who posted more than 10 titles unnumbered. If we take on your formula that last place scores 1 pt, and goes up with one to the top, and a list of 10 has 55, then in a list of 11 (has 66 points) a single point in that has value of 0.83 (55 divided by 66) so a last place has 0.83 actual points and the first one 9.13 pts (11*0.83). I think it's only fair.

[skavenhorde]

Wow, that is a bit beyond me. I just go with my gut instinct. If my gut tells me the game I'm playing is a 10 then my gut can't be wrong.

A Stephen Colbert fact - The gut has more nerve endings in it than the brain ;) There is a lot of truthiness in that fact for all those factistas out there.

Seriously though that is quite some ranking system you got going on there from that thread. I don't think I would have the patience or time to do that ranking. That is probably why I never was a good programmer :D

[GothicGothicness]

cannot believe Baldurs Gate 2 is number one :( :( :( :( :( :(

[Dasale]

Yes Arma, the full list is a bit long but no reason to not give it, so here is the FULL list :

Sorry there isn't their place number I'll add that another time.

Version EDITED after few correction:
269,5 Baldur's Gate 2
230,5 Gothic 1
225,5 Planescape Torment
206 Gothic 2
186 Fallout 2
171 Fallout 1
133,5 Ultima 7
126,5 Morrowind
108,5 Wizardy 8
99,5 Baldur's Gate 1
98,5 Kotor 1
96,5 Arcanum
85 Ultima Underworld 1
81 Neverwinter Night 1
77,5 Deus Ex
74 Realms of Arkania II
72 Betrayal at Krondor
70 Daggerfall
67 Vampire Bloodlines
66 Gothic 3
64,5 Ultima Underworld 2
58,5 Baldur's Gate 2: Throne of Bhaal
58 Icewind Dale 1
51,5 Ultima 4
49,5 Divine Divinity
47,5 Wizardy 7
46,5 Dungeon Master 1
45,5 System Shock 2
45 Might and Magic 6
43,5 Ultima 5
42 Realms of Arkania I
41,5 Darklands
40 Ultima 7 Serpent Isle
38 Kotor 2
36 Bard's Tale I
35,5 Neverwinter Night 2
32 Diablo 2
31,5 System Shock 1
31,5 Oblivion
31 Jagged Alliance 2
29,5 Pool of Radiance
29 Ultima 3
29 Might and Magic 7
27 Lands of Lore 1
26 Temple of Elemental Evil
25 Arx Fatalis
23 Prelude To Darkness
22,5 Magic Candle 1
22 The Witcher
22 Albion
21,5 Final Fantasy 7
21 Might and Magic 4
21 Might and Magic 5
21 Anachronox
20,5 Wizardy 6
20,5 Eye of the Beholder 2
20 World of Warcraft
19,5 Icewind Dale 2
19 Diablo 1
17 Ambermoon
15,5 Evil Islands: Curse of the Lost Soul
15 Ultima 6
15 Gothic 2: NOTR
14,5 Realms of Arkania III
14 Might and Magic 3
14 Ultima Online
13,5 Ancient Domains of Mystery
12,5 Anvil of Dawn
12 Fate - Gates of Dawn
12 Severance: Blade of Darkness
11 Neverwinter Night 2: Mask of the Betrayer
11 Eye of the Beholder 1
11 Demon's Winter
10,5 Phantasie III
10 Wizardy 1
10 Buck Rogers I
9 Skies of Arcadia
9 Geneforge 3
9 Geneforge 1
9 Lands of Lore 3
9 Geneforge 2
9 Neverwinter Night 1: Tales Of Arterra
9 Lands of Lore 2
9 Panzer Dragoon Saga
8 Dark Heart of Uukrul
8 Zelda: Ocarina of Time
7,5 Secret of Evermore
7,5 Dungeon Siege 1
7 OutCast
7 Gearhead
7 Arena
7 Treasures of the Savage Frontier
7 Final Fantasy 8
7 Legend of Faerghail
7 Jade Empire
6,5 Fire Emblem
6,5 No One Lives Forever 1
6,5 Rage of Mages
6,5 Fire Emblem Sacred Stones
6,5 Bard's Tale II
6 Might and Magic 1
6 Technomage
6 Dungeon Master 2
5,5 Wasteland
5,5 Kult: Heretic Kingdoms
5 Dark Sun 1
5 Neverwinter Night 1: Dreamcatcher Series
5 Valhalla (aka. Ragnarok)
5 Summoner
5 Mount and Blade
5 Wizard's Crown
5 Ultima 9
5 Planet's Edge
5 Tales of Symphonia
5 Final Fantasy 6
4,5 The Summoning
4,5 Egg's Ultima Online
4 Ishar 2
4 Deus Ex 2
4 Dungeon Siege 2
4 Shadowrun
3,5 Baldur's Gate 1 : ToSC
3 Story of Thor
3 Pool of Darkness
3 Fable
3 Siege of Avalon
3 Die by the Sword
3 DragonWars
3 Neverwinter Night 1: Runes of Blood
2,5 Magic Candle 2
2,5 Bard's Tale III
2 Everquest
2 Bloodwyche
2 Black Crypt
2 Might and Magic 2
2 Ultima 1
2 Neverwinter Night 1: Tortured Hearts
2 Fairy Tale
2 Final Fantasy 2
2 MegaTraveller
2 Captive
2 Realmz: Sword Lands Trilogy
2 Lord of the Ring: The Third Age
1,5 Silent Storm
1 Final Fantasy 4
1 Baten Kaitos: Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean
1 Wizardy 4
1 Exile: Escape from
1 Shadows Over Riva
1 Ravenloft: The stone prophet
1 Final Fantasy 9
0,5 No One Lives Forever 2

[Dasale]

cannot believe Baldurs Gate 2 is number one :( :( :( :( :( :(

Lol yes it's a surprise but in fact it should be even a little higher if I hadn't count as 2 games SoA and ToB (each time this occured it involves 0.5 lost for SoA).

BG2 hasn't always been the top 1. I had under my eyes the number evolving as I enter "votes" so at the begining BG2 got the lead fast but later Gothic 1 got first place and Fallout 1 even succeed to be before BG2. But in the last series of post BG2 made a terrible come back!

Anyway, it's like all average stuff like that, you get also the more popular, the better known, it's not only a "what's the best point of view".

Myself I cannot fully say how good BG2 is or not. I remember not like that much some points of BG2 SoA. But enjoted much more ToB. I'd be curious to know what would me my feeling to replay it now. I did it recently for BG1 and has been amazed by the good fun I got, but it was because I expected a disapointment, still feel it quite bellow some games like G2+NOTR or Ultima Underword.

[Dasale]

Wow, that is a bit beyond me. I just go with my gut instinct. If my gut tells me the game I'm playing is a 10 then my gut can't be wrong.

A Stephen Colbert fact - The gut has more nerve endings in it than the brain ;) There is a lot of truthiness in that fact for all those factistas out there.

Seriously though that is quite some ranking system you got going on there from that thread. I don't think I would have the patience or time to do that ranking. That is probably why I never was a good programmer :D

Re re read again each post, somehow stop on some useless but funny "hand fighting", all of that was funny and makes the whole task quite fun. See the top vary had some Suspense value too! I used a sample calc doing the computing for me, I just had to enter each votes, no program here just little hands. :biggrin:

[woges]

What is number one or two doesn't really matter. The thing is there are a lot of good games there that you could easily highly recommend to any crpg fan.

[Arpyjee]

cannot believe Baldurs Gate 2 is number one :( :( :( :( :( :(

Hail and praise BG2 , the greatest RPG of ALL time !

Oy !

[Corwin]

And then the people who brought you BG2 end up canceling BG3 to bring us FOBoS instead!!

[JDR13]

Viva BG2!!!

[skavenhorde]

Shadows over Riva is 1 ahhhhhh...Blashpemy....Thou shall be smote with a legion of skittering, chittering rats. Just kidding :), but still waay better than a 1. I'll have to go to that thread immediatly and put in my vote.

I have saved that list. It's great for going over all of the games that I've played and it's funny but I've played most of those (man I'm such a geek). This is almost as good as moby to remind me of some great games out there.

[Dasale]

Ok, in this thread quoted (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=727) the question was to not take in count the votes of someone coming here, subscribe to the forum, vote and leave few more post.

I don't know if it's better or not but anyway here is the vote of the ancients of the forum. The selection criteria is a bit high but well.

So here is the top 30 for the ancients of the forum :biggrin: :

113 Gothic 1
69 Gothic 2
57 Planescape Torment
56,5 Baldur's Gate 2
52 Wizardy 8
45 Morrowind
38,5 Kotor 1
36 Fallout 2
33,5 Ultima Underworld 1
30,5 Ultima Underworld 2
30,5 Baldur's Gate 1
29,5 Daggerfall
29 Neverwinter Night 1
29 Gothic 3
28,5 Realms of Arkania I
27,5 Ultima 7
27 Icewind Dale 1
25 Betrayal at Krondor
24,5 Might and Magic 7
23,5 Might and Magic 6
22 Arcanum
22 Ultima 4
19 Divine Divinity
19 System Shock 2
18 Wizardy 7
18 Wizardy 6
17,5 Ultima 7 Serpent Isle
17 Pool of Radiance
17 Realms of Arkania II
17 Oblivion

Interesting to compare with the global votes, well I won't comment more on this!

[Dasale]

....I have saved that list....

There was few error so I updated the top posts above to reflect the correction.

[HiddenX]

The top 30 ancient list is good - the only drawback:
I have played them all - most of them more than once.

[Dasale]

Mmm for top 30 of the ancients, ok see Gothic 1 and 2 get top 1 an top 2, see both Ultima Underworld higher is cool. But at the reverse, I don't see it as good the
Ultima 7 drop down, Kotor 1 top 7, Wizadry 8 top 5, Oblivion in top 30.

Well from my eyes it's not that obvious that the ancients cumulated top 30 is so much better.

[Corwin]

The top 30 ancient list is good - the only drawback:
I have played them all - most of them more than once.

You mean there are people out there who haven't?? Shame on them!! :)

[skavenhorde]

I'm lost, what is ancients list? Is that from another thread?

[Jaz]

I guess it's a list of games favorited by forum members over 100 (i.e., Corwin and Cm) :p.

Out of the top 30 (ancient or not), there are just 7 games I really liked; the rest of the roughly 50 games I really like/d are spread over the whole selection.

[skavenhorde]

Thanks Jaz.

Wouldn't that just be Corwin's list then ;)

I'm with you, not too many of my all time favs there. But I've played just about all of them.

[Corwin]

No, Cm is only a couple of years younger than I am, and Magerette must be quite close too!! :biggrin:

[Dasale]

I'm lost, what is ancients list? Is that from another thread?
No, same thread but only the votes of those who have a big white beard or at least pretends to have one! More seriously I mean those who are more or less veteran of the forum.

[Dasale]

I guess it's a list of games favorited by forum members over 100 (i.e., Corwin and Cm) :p.

Out of the top 30 (ancient or not), there are just 7 games I really liked; the rest of the roughly 50 games I really like/d are spread over the whole selection.

No the selection criteria are tougher, eventually it is better I don't publish them to avoid some cheating attempts, has well, criteria used could certainly be deduced from the result list.

[Dasale]

As I wrote, BG2 hasn't always been the top 1. To show it I extracted the successive top 5:

***********
The first top 5, BG2 already took the lead :
Baldur's Gate 2
Gothic 2
Gothic 1
Wizardy 8
Planescape Torment
***********
Second top 5 Gothic series scratch everything, top 1, top 2 and top 5!!! :
Gothic 1
Gothic 2
Planescape Torment
Baldur's Gate 2
Gothic 3
***********
Third top 5, assault of the Fallout series and PST almost reach top 1:
Gothic 1
Planescape Torment
Gothic 2
Baldur's Gate 2
Fallout 1
Fallout 2
***********
Fourth top, no changes except that gothic 2 took the lead with a permutation between gothic 1 and gothic 2.
Gothic 2
Planescape Torment
Gothic 1
Baldur's Gate 2
Fallout 2
Fallout 1
**********
Fifth top, Gothic 1 take back the top 1 but also BG2 rise a little.
Gothic 1
Planescape Torment
Baldur's Gate 2
Gothic 2
Fallout 2
Fallout 1
**********
Sixth top, BG2 continue an unstopable rise and take the second place but Gothic 1 still keep the top.
Gothic 1
Baldur's Gate 2
Planescape Torment
Gothic 2
Fallout 2
Fallout 1
**********
Seventh top, no changes
Gothic 1
Baldur's Gate 2
Planescape Torment
Gothic 2
Fallout 2
Fallout 1
**********
Last run, last top, BG2 grop the first place at last minute in last top at the depends of Gothic 1.
Baldur's Gate 2
Gothic 1
Planescape Torment
Gothic 2
Fallout 2
Fallout 1
**********

All of that to show that it's only at the beginning and with the last series of "votes" that BG2 took the top 1. In fact Gothic 1 has been top 1 a longer time. And the list of top 1 is only Gothic 1, Gothic 2 and BG2.

[purpleblob]

Hail and praise BG2 , the greatest RPG of ALL time !

Oy !

HEAR HEAR! totally agree :)

[magerette]

I also can understand why BG2 would win, but it would go much lower (and did) on my list. :)

No, Cm is only a couple of years younger than I am, and Magerette must be quite close too!! :biggrin:

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades, as we say here. ;)

Dasale--nice work and a great list. My only question is--what about The Witcher? I wonder where it would factor in if the Top Ten thread was to be started today instead of '06? Some people might even throw in other titles from this year like Eschalon... So just to make this up to date--without looking at my old votes, I've done a:

New Top Ten as of 2008:

1. Planescape:Torment
2. The Witcher
3. Might & Magic 7
4. Icewind Dale 1 + HOW expansion
5. Gothic 1
6. Might & Magic 6
7. Arcanum
8. Baldurs Gate 2 + SoA & ToB
9. Wizardry 8
10. Temple of Elemental Evil

[Dasale]

It's a vote update? The original thread is the best place for that. To take in account evolution that could be a range like the last xxx "votes". But well it's not over crowded so not easy to apply. :) For sure I'll do an update with vote updates but it's better to let some time pass because the calc side effect isn't that good.

Myself I haven't finished The Witcher because the ugly performances of chapter 5 disgusted me somehow. Great RPG will certainly be in my top 10 but where, not obvious. It's clear that for me despite some flaws it points better than many what I could prefer in future CRPG. I don't think I feel it better than Gothic 2+NOTR but I agree it worth a quote.

In fact, unlike many CRPG players, I think both NWN2 OC and NWN2 MoTB setup something quite interesting too. Usually CRPG fails to keep an intensity and often intensity management spoil the fun. On this point of view NWN2 OC did something amazing, on this point of view The Witcher has many pauses and many slowdown as all best RPG... but NWN2 OC. For MoTB it brings something close to The Witcher but in a less impressive result but it also show an interesting come back of puzzling.

[magerette]

I didn't mean you had to count it in your official score, Dasale-you've done enough work with what's already there. I just felt like redoing my list. :) I agree that some time needs to pass so enough people have the opportunity to play the games released in 2007--it's rare for me to buy a game right when it's released and I know many many more people will have played TW and MotB in another year, so I definitely agree the official recount doesn't need to start yet. Maybe this time next year we can start all over with a new thread.

I'm not sure what you mean about Chapter 5 in TW, but that would definitely be spoiler territory for those who haven't played so I won't ask you to explain.

I agree about the intensity in NWN2. I normally just put up with cutscenes, but NWN2 OC used them very well, especially at building to the endgame, possibly even better than The Witcher, as I thought there were maybe a few two many garbled messages in those, though that is probably a translation/localization issue. I still need to play MotB, and I'm sure it may creep into my new list...if there aren't too many puzzles ;)... we non- crpg players just don't like those. :p :)