The Witcher - Review @ The Jerusalem Post [Archive]

magerette

February 20th, 2008, 21:13

Ausir writes in to give us the heads up about a slightly different review of The Witcher at the Israeli news online site The Jerusalem Post. (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1201070793235&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull) The title of the review is If you're timid, don't be witched, and I'll let it speak for itself:
Technical rating: 4 stars
Moral rating: 0 stars

Freed from the shackles of communism, Polish software developers feel at liberty to go as far as they want, with unrestrained violence and sex in the videogames they export to Britain and other Western countries. This adult-only role-playing game, based on a series of fantasy stories by best-selling Polish author Andrzej Sapkowski, is an example of high technical skill and low morals that can nevertheless legally be purchased by youngsters.

The protagonist of the story is Geralt of Rivia, a mercenary killer ("witcher") of monsters who lives in Vizima, a cursed, gloomy and impoverished city (except for a few filthy rich who enjoy themselves). With long gray tresses and a scarred face that becomes even more bloodcurdling when he periodically swallows the contents of little bottles of potions, Geralt (nicknamed White Wolf) is a killing machine who can hardly be called a "good guy."

Geralt initially arrives at the Witchers' fortress suffering from amnesia. This forgetfulness allows the narrator to retell some of what the Witcher has been through in the past and forces the protagonist to roam the world and encounter people he previously met so he can regain his memories.

The game is offered at three levels of difficulty, with the option of using your mouse only or it and the keyboard. But you must have a strong computer to use it, and even if you do, the load time from one scene to another is very long, and frequent crashes are nearly inevitable. If you get through it all, it will take you about 45, 50 or even 60 hours to finish. The background music is stirring, voice acting believable, graphics impressive and sound effects authentic. But while there is an interesting story line, the game reeks of perversion.

As Geralt is a genetically altered human, he is sterile, but he can still seduce young women who offer to be ravished, and he takes advantage of their offer. After each sexual escapade, he earns cards showing the semi-nude image of the woman he had sex with and that he collects as a kind of trophy. The dialogue also includes plenty of filthy language.

More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=8074)

Ausir

February 20th, 2008, 21:13

The Jerusalem Post is not just a website. It's the biggest English-language newspaper in Israel.

magerette

February 20th, 2008, 21:17

Thanks for the clarification--my intention was to call it an online site for a newspaper. New York Times, San Francisco Chronicle etc all have similar sites related to their newspapers. Apologies for the confusion. :)

guenthar

February 20th, 2008, 22:22

There is one thing wrong with this review and that is saying "legally be purchased by youngsters" which isn't nessesarily true. If the stores did what they should and not sell M (or simular) rated games to children then only adults (parents) would be able to buy it for them and then it is the parents fault. They should take that out of the review since it has nothing to do with the game or developer and everything to do with the store and parents.

Ausir

February 20th, 2008, 22:28

It can be purchased by youngsters. Israel has no game content rating system. Doesn't make the "review" less silly, though.

r3dshift

February 20th, 2008, 22:46

Holy crap... Could we get a review by the Vatican as well? Pretty please? "Moral rating: 0"; "the game reeks of perversion"... FFS.

Gotta visit the loo, all this hypocrisy has made me wanna throw up.

Ausir

February 20th, 2008, 23:08

I found a Christian review of the game, and, surprisingly, the reviewer liked it:
http://www.plaingames.com/games/reviews/review.asp?id=286
Funny thing is, they rated sexuality as 3/5, while the same reviewer rated Mass Effect's as 5/5. While there's lots of sex in The Witcher, the Christian gamers appreciate that at least it's straight sex only.

Morbus

February 20th, 2008, 23:14

magerette

February 20th, 2008, 23:26

I find the Communist references kind of baffling myself--can't tell if they are calling the devs former brainwashed commie lackeys, revolutionary commie-haters or what:

a mercenary killer ("witcher") of monsters who lives in Vizima, a cursed, gloomy and impoverished city (except for a few filthy rich who enjoy themselves

As for the perversion--I don't think Vizima reeks of it anymore than the real world. :)

Prime Junta

February 20th, 2008, 23:30

Compared to the stuff they wrote in the 18th century, it's lily-white. Try this (http://www.globusz.com/ebooks/Justine/00000001.htm), this (http://www.sade-ecrivain.com/juliette/juliette.htm), or even this (http://digital.library.upenn.edu/webbin/gutbook/lookup?num=2060) on for size.

I wish they'd invent something new so these folks could start fretting about that and leave video games alone.

Maylander

February 21st, 2008, 00:08

Personally I think it's great that The Witcher actually got some PR elsewhere in the world. For some reason we'd like to think that the Western world and its views/perspective are the only ones relevant in the gaming industry. However, there is a *huge* market in the rest of the world too, and you can't expect people in China, Isreal, India, Korea, etc to have similar cultures to our own. They don't. Claiming that the language in The Witcher is simply "normal" is correct; in the Western world. However, you'd get a *lot* of rude looks if you even considered that kind of language in quite a few countries (hence why the reviewer points it out).

All in all I like this kind of publicity - the more focus good RPGs get around the world, the better. Some will certainly look at the game from a different perspective, but that is to be expected. The world would be a boring place if everyone had the same taste, came from the same culture and had the same hobbies.

Edit: PJ, be a bit more careful by calling anyone "these folks" - who are you referring to? Jews? Christians? Israelis? Don't generalize like that, you might just offend someone - if I'm not misstaken we have people from pretty much every corner of the world on these forums.

Ausir

February 21st, 2008, 00:36

Alrik Fassbauer

February 21st, 2008, 00:48

Ethics might be influenced by Religion, but does not depend on it.

Lucky Day

February 21st, 2008, 05:37

Ausir

February 21st, 2008, 05:59

Huh? This game was always aimed at M/18+ rating. Otherwise it wouldn't be true to the books.

vBullettin

February 21st, 2008, 07:03

Quit bein' pussies, just play the game, enjoy the story, and have fun!

Prime Junta

February 21st, 2008, 09:34

Edit: PJ, be a bit more careful by calling anyone "these folks" - who are you referring to? Jews? Christians? Israelis? Don't generalize like that, you might just offend someone - if I'm not misstaken we have people from pretty much every corner of the world on these forums.

I didn't have any particular religion in mind; I meant people who pack a lot of outrage and very little understanding and make a lot of noise in the name of saving the children. Everyone from Tipper Gore to Jack Thompson and their local equivalents everywhere. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

Prime Junta

February 21st, 2008, 09:38

Great review for calling this game what it is. Its a shame we keep getting pilfered with this stuff when such obvious talent could have been put to better use. Recall CD Projekt attempted to slip this to allow it to be sold to 16 year olds and called it a great thing. I believe that decision got reversed.

Then again, there's nothing in there that's more "perverse" there than plain ol' prime-time TV. Video games are just judged by a far stricter standard. I also wish you'd stop going on about how "perverse" this game is since you haven't even played the damn thing.

woges

February 21st, 2008, 13:44

Same old arguments from from the 70's. Perversion has a place everywhere because it has existed in society from the beginning. If I read a book on perversion it doesn't make me perverse any more than reading the bible makes me religious. As far as mythology is concerned the Minotaur springs to mind immediately and I believe a lot of Greek myth to be pretty darn right dirty.

Alrik Fassbauer

February 21st, 2008, 15:47

Quit bein' pussies, just play the game, enjoy the story, and have fun!

You didn't realized there might be women as well on this board ?

xSamhainx

February 21st, 2008, 16:06

from the tone of his post, it doesnt appear that he cares much about the sensitivities of the local population

Krzychu

February 21st, 2008, 21:52

Freed from the shackles of communism, Polish software developers feel at liberty to go as far as they want

You know, after seeing that sentence I felt a pressing urge to stop reading.

Seriously, I almost expected to see a line "also, they support the nazi ideology, and eat babies" next.

*shrugs*

Anyway, I can only assume that the author of this short review has not read the books.

Freed from the shackles of communism, Polish software developers feel at liberty to go as far as they want

Well, yeah, they do, and right in your face.

Dez

February 21st, 2008, 22:57

First of all its refreshing to notice that this particular reviewer actually played the game. So I can somewhat respect his opinion no matter how idiotic it may look like. My personal take on his views however is that me an him live in a whole dfferent planet ;)

Games are harmless if you compare them what is shown on tv. Even most t-rated movies show more bare skin than witcher or any game for that matter does. (besides what is so horrible in naked people or sexuality?) When are we going to see the end to this stupid hypocrisy? I'm getting really tired of this buzz surrounding witcher. These people are somehow trying to claim that witcher is a really rebellious game. EEK nudity, violence and even cursing! How dare they?!

Don't 'these people' ever step outside in the real world? Haven't they ever see anyone naked? Haven't they heard anyone cursing? Whats the fucking problem really? Don't they read any books? don't they watch telly? Don't go in the cinema? Most of all don't they spend any time with real people? I'm finding it really difficult to understand why games are such a special case to these guardians of moral? Why games can't be allowed to 'violate' their moral code?

EDIT: Sorry for my outburst, but somehow this is just getting so old. I don't really know what i was trying to say exactly, maybe just needed to put some steam off :D Witcher has one of the best storylines I've seen in years yet there is huge buzz about trivial things such as geralt having sex with triss (which is the most natural between two lovers, don't you agree?). The quality of writing is suberb and the whole game was like a breath of fresh air. Defining again what roleplaying is about. Its like watching an academy awarded movie and whining in a review why do the main characters have sex and curse so much even if it belongs to the film's context.

magerette

February 22nd, 2008, 02:35

Understandable about blowing off the steam, Dez. It does get old, all the fuss. I have no problem understanding that people may not want to look at nudity, hear people swearing or be presented with situations that don't agree with their moral outlook, but what I'll never understand is why other people doing it bothers them so much. The fact that it even exists seems to bother them. I just don't get it.

Let's face it, the game is not going to insidiously creep onto all the harddrives in the world and take them all over like a Die Hard movie--and if and when software *is* capable of that, you'll have a lot more to worry about than a partially naked lady on trading card. ;)

Prime Junta

February 22nd, 2008, 09:09

You sure about that? There are plenty of cases of people claiming that pictures of naked ladies spontaneously crawled onto their hard drives. Why would a game with them be any different?

;)

Maylander

February 22nd, 2008, 09:53

@ Dez
They do watch movies, just not American ones with all the cursing. Bollywood is as big (bigger?) as Hollywood, and you'd have to dig deep if you were to find nudity or cursing in such movies. I don't know exactly what movies they watch in Israel, but I wouldn't be surprised if the were more along the lines of Bollywood than Hollywood.

Edit: Interesting stats: http://www.businessweek.com//magazine/content/02_48/art02_48/a48tab37.gif

In many cultures around the world, verbal abuse (cursing) is considered as bad as punching someone in the face (or worse). Is that such a strange thing? There are far more people having problems due to verbal abuse than being beat up - being beat up is something you can shrug off as soon as the pain is gone; verbal abuse stays in your mind.

I know it might seem very strange to someone born and raised in the West, but they really do see things quite differently. I know quite a few in China, for example, and they'd consider it a far bigger insult if you said "Fuck you" than try to beat the crap out of them. Most of them consider our ways of constantly cursing "barbaric" and "stupid", and I can't say I disagree.

Talk about making a fuss; I don't see why people are making such a fuss that the reviewer is writing for an audience not too similar to the crowd here on the forums. I don't see any of you reacting when GamerDad writes about the blood level, sexual level and generally how "adult" the game is. "Oh, but they're writing towards parents and their kids!". Right, a different audience. My point exactly.

However, the "freed from the shackles of communism" comment is just plain silly. I don't know how much this reviewer knows about communism and the Soviet Union, but he should've looked that part up before writing about it. If they were Russian developers it would make sense; it makes very little sense when talking about Polish developers.

Prime Junta

February 22nd, 2008, 10:49

Prime Junta

February 22nd, 2008, 10:50

However, the "freed from the shackles of communism" comment is just plain silly. I don't know how much this reviewer knows about communism and the Soviet Union, but he should've looked that part up before writing about it. If they were Russian developers it would make sense; it makes very little sense when talking about Polish developers.

It wouldn't make any more sense if it they were Russian developers. It's just a silly comment.

Maylander

February 22nd, 2008, 12:45

Prime Junta

February 22nd, 2008, 12:53

Well, developers in the Soviet Union certainly didn't have "freedom of speech". Far from it. The Witcher touches subjects like racism and war, which is certainly not something the Soviet government would allow. Every kind of media in the old Soviet Union was pretty much controlled by the government, so "going as far as the want" (which is what the author mentioned) would've been impossible.

Still, the comment was aimed towards Poland, and in Poland they've had liberty for quite a long time. :)

Um, no. The USSR fell in 1991. The Polish Communist government fell all of two years before that, in 1989. The cracks in the Polish Communist regime started to show in the early 1980's; in Russia, Gorbachev came to power in 1985 -- again, a difference of maybe 2-3 years. Jaruzelski was a good bit more repressive than Gorbachev, and Gierek and Gomulka weren't much better than Brezhnev and Khrushchev.

But the main point is that the 20-ish developers making games in both countries would have been in primary school when all that went down. They're certainly not enjoying the first wild, heady days of freedom after a lifetime of oppression.

Alrik Fassbauer

February 22nd, 2008, 13:10

Still, the comment was aimed towards Poland, and in Poland they've had liberty for quite a long time. :)

Well, the twins were about to change that, as it appears to me.

Ausir

February 22nd, 2008, 14:33

We got rid of one of the twins, fortunately.

Krzychu

February 23rd, 2008, 21:46

Still, the comment was aimed towards Poland, and in Poland they've had liberty for quite a long time.

But the main point is that the 20-ish developers making games in both countries would have been in primary school when all that went down. They're certainly not enjoying the first wild, heady days of freedom after a lifetime of oppression.

Exactly. We (in Poland) didn't regain our freedom yesterday, that's why to me that comment was so ridiculous, if not just stupid or even rude in a way. Anyway, you want to know how many serious game developing companies there were in Poland before 1989? Hm, lemme see... - you know what, I have no idea, but I think it's safe to say that it was something around zero.

I know it might seem very strange to someone born and raised in the West, but they really do see things quite differently. I know quite a few in China, for example, and they'd consider it a far bigger insult if you said "Fuck you" than try to beat the crap out of them. Most of them consider our ways of constantly cursing "barbaric" and "stupid", and I can't say I disagree.

I don't know about Israel, but in Poland we have a very "liberal" law when it comes to games (Unfortunately, this might change). I know I've seen many cases in the past where a game got a 18+ rating in the U.S. or the U.K., and in Poland it got a 16+. Which doesn't really matter, because a 15-year-old can still buy a 18+ game. I don't recall a game ever being censored. Of course, The Witcher is considered a game with a lot of adult content around here as well, but then again, there aren't as many games developed in Poland as in some other countries.

I can't speak for the people at CDProjekt Red, but I believe I am right when I say that The Witcher was developed for the Polish audience/standards in terms of content, *and* published in other countries. Well, the devs might have thought about the reaction in the States, but certainly not about Israel or China. Maybe that's why people from other cultures could be overly offended by it - but can you blame the devs? Imagine, if while making a game any group of developers was like "Oh, no, we can't have that - it will offend x", "And this will offend y" and so on, and so forth. Something tells me the game would be boring, if it was a game with any story or dialogues.

Hm, I think Tetris is one of the few games that can be enjoyed by people worldwide. I may be wrong, though. :)

That review sounds just like another "Evil, evil games are evil" article. Does anyone here frequent that website? - 'cause I'm wondering what do they usually say about games?

Anyway, if The Witcher isn't fit for the cultural standards in Israel, then perhaps the reviewer shouldn't start off with attacking the developers, but rather ask who allowed this game to be published there.

Well, the twins were about to change that, as it appears to me.
*sigh* Appearances can be deceiving , you know. ;)

Prime Junta

February 23rd, 2008, 22:32

Hm, I think Tetris is one of the few games that can be enjoyed by people worldwide. I may be wrong, though. :)

Which was written by Aleksey Pajitnov, a Soviet computer scientist. Has this discussion come full circle or what?

Unrestigered

February 23rd, 2008, 22:49

Yeah, if only people would take the same stance and defend the Danish cartoon of Allah or Muhammad or whatever it was.

I almost guarantee this thread would have a different tone if this was an Iranian or Palestinian review of the Witcher. I guess some bigotries and hatreds are buried too deep inside us, either that or we are so scarred of Muslims we refuse to critisize their religious psycho-babble nonsensical violence, but since the Jews won't kill you for moking them or being a heretic its okay to do so. They're only filthy Jews after all. Curse them and their savage way of life and opinions on games. We can only hope they get nuked soon and we won't have to share the world with those greedy bastards who have the audacity to have a newspaper that could not like a game because of content that is objectionable to the members of its religion and who share there objection in a non-violent and non-threatening way. Burn them!!!!! Burn those big nosed barbarians!!!!! Throw them down the well so our country can be free!!!!!

If the use of the term Jew was offensive please replace it with the more PC term Zionist.

Prime Junta

February 23rd, 2008, 23:08

magerette

February 23rd, 2008, 23:33

Most of the criticism in this thread has been pretty mild, IMO and I find it hard to find any threats of violence or an "I hate Jews theme" running through it. Still, I'll clarify my own remarks about "all the fuss," however.

Unregistered, whoever you are, you may not be aware that since this game was released, its adult content and mature themes have been slammed by many people for moral reasons. This is also a bigger issue in the media in general, and gamers are constantly seeing any mature content in games vilified, frequently without any attempt at impartiality. (Google "Fox News and Mass Effect" for an extreme example.)

After several months of hearing the 'moral' issues in a game that was never intended for children being stressed out of proportion to the other aspects of the game, it gets old.

The Jewish press as represented in this article is certainly not a main focus in particular of my or I think anyone here's resentment , but comes under some legitimate fire for referring to profanity and non-compulsory mild visual references to consensual heterosexual sex as filth and perversion, not to mention dragging in some personal slurs about the devs' ethnic and political background which seem pretty irrelevant to a game review.

That said, several posters in this thread have found the review to be otherwise fair, and have mentioned it. For me personally, the review was spoiled by the intrusion of a moral agenda, but if my unwitting remarks were offensive, I do apologize. It's never my intention to belittle anyone for their racial, ethnic, religious or idealogical identity.

Unrestigered

February 24th, 2008, 01:58

Welcome to the forums, Unrestigered. Too bad you were too chicken to post that under a "restigered" identity.

You know what's really sad? It's that anti-Semitism is very real -- but your kind of ranting that sees it even when it's not there trivializes and even legitimizes it. Not to mention implicitly conflating Zionists and Jews like in your parenthesis.

Put another way, it can't be right if I'm only allowed to dislike someone if he's white (but not Jewish), secularized, and left of center, just like my little self.

(By the way, there's been plenty of criticism -- and more than criticism -- of Muslims both individual and collective here; just leaf through some threads in Politics & Religion.)

Conflating as in grouping all the Jews that live in the only Jewish country in the world together with all the Jews that don't live in that country who believe that Jews should be able to live in that country, and saying they make up an overwhelmingly vast enough percentage of the total Jewish world population that the term Zionist and Jew can be used interchangably, than yes. Yes, I conflated. I'm a conflator. An implicit conflator. I know, I know, its crazy. Or I'm crazy. Crazy like glue.

I think people should review the term narrative. Lets say the Jews played The Witcher, and decided to review it with a Jew Narrative in mind, and found it prefectly suitable for Jew consumption. Thats when people should say, "Huh? Thats crazy! The Jews have lost their Jew minds! "

Or let me use an example that will translate better to this audience. Michael Moore reviews a game in which guns are sold to children without healthcare in order to fund an oil war with Sudan in which Bush is shown to be a smart, compasionate gentleman who is loved by the world, and the world loves America, and America is good, and soldiers aren't brainless automatons, and the war was good, and Moore says the game is not good due to ethical reasons, would that make sense?

Yes, it would make perfect sense.

If a group with a specific narrative reviews a game and the logical conclusion, with that narrative in mind, is stated it usually isn't suprising. But in the last ten or so years people are bogled by the statements of groups with specific narratives when that statement is a given. It confuses me.

Here are some comment worthy headlines that would not be at all confusing if people were suprised upon hearing:

"Muslim terrorist group decides to put on a performance of Hairspray at a gay wedding in Saudi Arabia"

"A Cambridge family decides to stop giving children psychotropic meds"

"Al Sharpton caught on tape talking about how much he hates negros, money, and the spotlight"

"Hillary Clinton becomes a nun and has sex with six donkeys in Tijuana"

"France invades Germany, states 'Revenge is a dish best served cold, Bitches!!!!'"

"Atkins diet sweaps Italy, pasta banned from its shores for good"

"World poll finds that 98% of men find sex to be disgusting and not worth the effort"

"Study finds that obese people who abuse drugs, drink, and smoke have the longest life expectancy and would be near immortal if they contracted AIDS"

"Pope Benedict XVI caught on tape eating babies at a satanic ritual during a death metal concert"

"Al Roker and Nancy Reagan sex video over-downloading crashes the internet forever"

"Al Gore says Global Warming is awesome as he sprays carbon particles into the atmosphere before signing on as Ralph Nadar's Vice Presidential running mate"

I could go on because I have a good imagination. All those things above are suprising and comment worthy. The NAACP saying blacks are awesome is not. Neither is a Christian group proclaiming their belief in God. Nor is a newspaper revview of a Jewish religion State with a Jewish narrative saying The Witcher has some immoral content.

The communist stuff Magerette highlights is interesting, but I can't think of a communist regime that was Jew-friendly. Night of the Murdered Poets is a funny title, but something could have been lost during translation.

Anyhow, I like the review. Maybe because getting into the mind of a Jew makes me feel dirty and evil. I stopped putting stock in reviews a long time ago, so all I can get out of them is entertainment. And this review entertains. Calling me a chicken hurts. Maybe we could temporarily place a hold on the "no personal insults" policy so you can roll up your sleeves and let some really bad ones rip, like poop-face and caca-head. Throwing in a yellow belly dirt-bag would be a capital idea, if your keen on it.

Prime Junta

February 24th, 2008, 08:28

Conflating as in grouping all the Jews that live in the only Jewish country in the world together with all the Jews that don't live in that country who believe that Jews should be able to live in that country, and saying they make up an overwhelmingly vast enough percentage of the total Jewish world population that the term Zionist and Jew can be used interchangably, than yes. Yes, I conflated. I'm a conflator. An implicit conflator. I know, I know, its crazy. Or I'm crazy. Crazy like glue.

Um, no. And you're not crazy, just disingenuous, or someone who bought the propaganda wholesale.

Zionism is Jewish integral nationalism, just like Banderism is Ukrainian integral nationalism. It's perfectly legitimate to oppose Banderism without being anti-Ukrainian, just like it's perfectly possible to oppose Zionism without being anti-Semitic. This would be true even if every Ukrainian was Banderist or every Jew was Zionist -- which is not the case. Conflating the two is simply a shoddy attempt to legitimize a political ideology by branding any opposition to it as racist.

(Feel free to substitute "Nazism/Germans," "Communism/Russians," "Jihadism/Muslims," or any other ideology currently or formerly associated with any particular ethnic or religious group.)

I think people should review the term narrative. Lets say the Jews played The Witcher, and decided to review it with a Jew Narrative in mind, and found it prefectly suitable for Jew consumption. Thats when people should say, "Huh? Thats crazy! The Jews have lost their Jew minds! "

I didn't find anything specifically Jewish about the JPost review to start with. I did find lots of facile references to its "moral values" of the kind that I've seen in lots of other places -- and a gratuitous slur at Poles and their history.

(Snip a rest of rant with red herrings right and left.)

skavenhorde

February 24th, 2008, 08:48

I know it might seem very strange to someone born and raised in the West, but they really do see things quite differently. I know quite a few in China, for example, and they'd consider it a far bigger insult if you said "Fuck you" than try to beat the crap out of them. Most of them consider our ways of constantly cursing "barbaric" and "stupid", and I can't say I disagree.

Are you sure about that statement? I'm not sure about China but in Taiwan saying "gan" and "gan lin mia" are the prefered way of insulting someone over beating the crap out of them. "Gan" and "Gan lin mia" directly translated from Taiwanese it means "fuck" and "motherfucker." It's not just for insulting someone too, kids will say it when they're messing around with each other. Seeing as most Taiwanese are from China I would think that the two cultures are very similar.

You should see some of the legislators in the Legislative Yuan cursing out each other. It's truly funny to watch.

I'm not touching unrestigered's comments with a ten foot pole. Some people just want to cause problems where none existed.

Ionstormsucks

February 24th, 2008, 14:16

After several months of hearing the 'moral' issues in a game that was never intended for children being stressed out of proportion to the other aspects of the game, it gets old.

Well, I think the problem is a bit more complex. First let me stress that I do not agree with the article, in my opinion "The Witcher" is a rather harmless game. But I notice a certain hypocrisy on both sides really. It has become an established strategy in the gaming business to reject any kind of social responsibility based on the adult rating. Let's face it - publishers and developers alike know very well that many games with such a rating will in fact end up in the hands of people that they were not intended for (they will usually transfer the responsibility to stores, parents, etc - to a certain extent rightfully).
If you look at the "adult elements" that "The Witcher" contains it's seems to be undeniable that these adress a young audience NOT an adult one... in other words: Who, but a 12 year old would get a boner by looking at pixel images of virtual medieval chicks? The same pretty much goes for collecting cards of the ladies.

On the other hand I have to admit that I simply cannot understand all the fuzz about "The Witcher" - especially not in terms of sexuality. "The Witcher" features a rather mild sexuality, but certainly not hardcore pornography. I seriously doubt, that the picture of a naked woman will negatively influence children of any age.

skavenhorde

February 24th, 2008, 15:02

It has become an established strategy in the gaming business to reject any kind of social responsibility based on the adult rating.

And rightfully so. It is not their social or any other responsibilty other than to make a product and to sell that product. It is up to the parents to decide whether or not they want their child to play that game or watch that movie or TV program or whatever. If you start telling businesses "Hey you can't make that because it might offend or lead to the moral degradation of our society" then game over man. Big brother wins, freedom loses. Ok that's a bit over the top but come on that's the parents job, not the industries. Case in point, my mom wouldn't buy Leisure Suit Larry waaaayyyy back when I was a kid because she didn't want me to play that game. Her choice to not buy that game. Does that mean that LSL shouldn't of been made because some kid somewhere might be playing it? I know I didn't play it because my mom did her job and didn't complain about it to anyone, she just didn't buy the thing.

That's what everyone seems to forget. There is a free market out there. If you don't like something then don't buy it period. Like I hate Silent Hill. I think it's disgusting and perverted. Plus it scares the hell out of me. Does that mean no one should sell it. Not on your life. Some people enjoy it and more power to them, I will not try to take that little bit of entertainment away from them because of my opinion or in the name of the children.

Let's face it - publishers and developers alike know very well that many games with such a rating will in fact end up in the hands of people that they were not intended for (they will usually transfer the responsibility to stores, parents, etc - to a certain extent rightfully).

Parents job.

If you look at the "adult elements" that "The Witcher" contains it's seems to be undeniable that these adress a young audience NOT an adult one... in other words: Who, but a 12 year old would get a boner by looking at pixel images of virtual medieval chicks? The same pretty much goes for collecting cards of the ladies.

LMAO....Ever hear of Henti or nude mods? Not just 12 year olds are into pixel images of virtual medieval chicks or why are there so many nude mods for Oblivion, Morrowind, KOTOR (ok not that many for KOTOR but they have Bastila nude patch), Tomb Raider, The sims 1 and 2 and WOW. Those are just a few off the top of my head and yes, I did download them:biggrin: I'm human and even in cartoon form the female body is a wonderous thing, my friend. But do you see a trend here. Not just twelve year olds like a little sexiness in their game. Who wants to make a bet that when the modding tools are released for The Witcher that some of the first mods will be a nude one.

On the other hand I have to admit that I simply cannot understand all the fuzz about "The Witcher" - especially not in terms of sexuality. "The Witcher" features a rather mild sexuality, but certainly not hardcore pornography. I seriously doubt, that the picture of a naked woman will negatively influence children of any age.

Now that is something I agree with 100 and 10%.

Prime Junta

February 24th, 2008, 15:24

Well, I think the problem is a bit more complex. First let me stress that I do not agree with the article, in my opinion "The Witcher" is a rather harmless game. But I notice a certain hypocrisy on both sides really. It has become an established strategy in the gaming business to reject any kind of social responsibility based on the adult rating. Let's face it - publishers and developers alike know very well that many games with such a rating will in fact end up in the hands of people that they were not intended for (they will usually transfer the responsibility to stores, parents, etc - to a certain extent rightfully).

That's not the point. The problem is the double standard: games like The Witcher or Mass Effect don't have anything more explicit in them than what you see on prime-time TV, let alone T- (or perhaps even PG) rated movies.

In other words, I'll listen to that particular argument once it gets applied to Die Hard and CSI with the same amount of vehemence.

Prime Junta

February 24th, 2008, 15:26

Who wants to make a bet that when the modding tools are released for The Witcher that some of the first mods will be a nude one.

Come to think of it, getting rid of that silly baby-doll nightie would be a significant improvement.

zahratustra

February 24th, 2008, 15:47

LOL PJ, there is already a mod that does just that :)
http://www.thewitcher.com/forum/index.php?topic=8999.0
just, unless you want those three prmanently naked, read instructions carefully.

I don't have problem with guys review of Witcher. I don't agree with him but he has a right to his opinion. What I (and most of other Polish board members) have problem with is the: "Freed from the shackles of communism, Polish software developers feel at liberty to go as far as they want ..." bit.

Sentence like this has no place (IMO) in a game review and is thoughtless at best and prejudicial at the worst.

Unrestigered

February 24th, 2008, 16:36

Um, no. And you're not crazy, just disingenuous, or someone who bought the propaganda wholesale.

Zionism is Jewish integral nationalism, just like Banderism is Ukrainian integral nationalism. It's perfectly legitimate to oppose Banderism without being anti-Ukrainian, just like it's perfectly possible to oppose Zionism without being anti-Semitic. This would be true even if every Ukrainian was Banderist or every Jew was Zionist -- which is not the case. Conflating the two is simply a shoddy attempt to legitimize a political ideology by branding any opposition to it as racist.

(Feel free to substitute "Nazism/Germans," "Communism/Russians," "Jihadism/Muslims," or any other ideology currently or formerly associated with any particular ethnic or religious group.)

I didn't find anything specifically Jewish about the JPost review to start with. I did find lots of facile references to its "moral values" of the kind that I've seen in lots of other places -- and a gratuitous slur at Poles and their history.

(Snip a rest of rant with red herrings right and left.)

No. If the vast majority of Jews are Zionists the terms can be used interchangeably.. When the word Zionist is uttered, almost every Jew is included. Please tell me how or why the terms should not or cannot be used interchangeably? Your examples are poor; a better example would be Middle-Easterner/Muslim. Or Arab/Muslim.

You make it sound like Zionism is purely just a political agenda, and the destruction of the only Jewish State in the world can be viewed dispassionately and have no other significance or implications. If you state you are left of center I’ll hazard a guess that you have an opinion on illegal immigration and you see racial implications and significance in that issue. But none when it comes to a group of people that have kind of gotten the short end of the stick (to put it very lightly) throughout recorded history? This isn’t sending a group of people that are in one country illegally back to their own country legally, this is the destruction of the group of people’s only country. The destruction of their country, their home. A specific group of people, whose vast majority of population throughout the world are for the continuation of that country. And you say the two can be separated, and the group and the idea of that group having a home can be/are separated have no racial or bigoted implications? Do you see what nonsense that is? Anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism. Zionism is a Jew-friendly idea, Anti-Semitism is a not a Jew-friendly idea. Unless you believe the Jews are so stupid and savage that non-Jews know what’s best for Jews, and that super smart non-Jews working hand in hand with anti-Semitists to work towards the end of the Jews only home of their own is just grand and not another example of the Jews getting it in the rear again.

I see that and raise you one. Not only do I believe the Jews shouldn’t have a State of their own they can call home, I don’t believe they should have homes they should call home. Jews should move into the sewers because their owning houses along side normal-folk is just causing too much trouble in the world. The world would be a much better place if the Jews lived in the sewer. And no, this does not mean I’m anti-Semitic. I’m just really, really not pro-Zionist. Its just politics. I belong to a political group so its okay..

The example of Jihad/Muslim perfectly articulates a lack of knowledge of the Koran. I’m going to go out on a limb and say you are currently in college. When you have read the Koran in its entirety and studied the life of Muhammad we can talk about that subject, until then there is no reason to even try.

magerette

February 24th, 2008, 17:09

Unregistered wrote:
You make it sound like Zionism is purely just a political agenda, and the destruction of the only Jewish State in the world can be viewed dispassionately and have no other significance or implications. If you state you are left of center I’ll hazard a guess that you have an opinion on illegal immigration and you see racial implications and significance in that issue. But none when it comes to a group of people that have kind of gotten the short end of the stick (to put it very lightly) throughout recorded history...

What is with this destruction fixation? How does not liking the slant of a game review equate to the destruction of all things Jewish? I come from a country that's been 100% behind the Zionist state since it's inception and that's being stigmatized in the Arab world for remaining invested in Israel and supporting its anti-Arab policies. I went to school in an all-Jewish community and respect and honor the Jewish culture and belief system. I have no desire to see the Jews lose their homeland, or anything else, and there's no doubt the Jews have been historically persecuted for their faith and culture, but that doesn't mean the Zionists are infallible and have made no mistakes, either.

You're not going to play the guilt card on a game review and make anyone feel anything but embarrassment for you on your lack of insight and proportion. You are mixing emotional issues and political ones.

The example of Jihad/Muslim perfectly articulates a lack of knowledge of the Koran. I’m going to go out on a limb and say you are currently in college. When you have read the Koran in its entirety and studied the life of Muhammad we can talk about that subject, until then there is no reason to even try.

This is so ignorant and false it's ironic. You've completely missed the point of the analogy and can't seem to get your mind out of it's prejudices long enough to read and accurately interpret simple concepts. Go to the Politics and Religion forum and read some of Prime Junta's posts before you mischaracterize him in this fashion.

zahratustra

February 24th, 2008, 17:28

This is so ignorant and false it's ironic. You've completely missed the point of the analogy and can't seem to get your mind out it's prejudices long enough to read and accurately interpret simple concepts. Go to the Politics and Religion forum and read some of Prime Junta's posts before you mischaracterize him in this fashion.

I am not going to waste my time arguing with Unrestigered but very well said magerette!

Prime Junta

February 24th, 2008, 17:28

No. If the vast majority of Jews are Zionists the terms can be used interchangeably.. When the word Zionist is uttered, almost every Jew is included. Please tell me how or why the terms should not or cannot be used interchangeably? Your examples are poor; a better example would be Middle-Easterner/Muslim. Or Arab/Muslim.

Because the definitions are different. The definition of a Jew is something like "an individual that practices the Judaic religion and/or identifies himself with the Jewish ethnicity and culture," where as the definition of Zionism is "an individual who supports the cause of Israel as a specifically Jewish state, and the homeland for all Jews." Two concepts, two meanings, two words.

However, if the overlap was perfect -- all Jews were Zionists and all Zionists were Jews -- your case would be stronger... although even so, it would be entirely possible to espouse a cause of reforming Judaism to get rid of Zionism.

But that's a theoretical questions, since despite what you say, the overlap isn't nearly 100%, in either direction. There are non-Jewish Zionists (http://christianactionforisrael.org/czionism.html) and anti-Zionist Jews (http://www.nkusa.org/). If you conflate Judaism and Zionism, you define these groups out of existence, which is both inaccurate and offensive.

You make it sound like Zionism is purely just a political agenda,

That's because it *is* a purely political agenda -- just like Banderism, Francoism, Fascism, Nazism, neo-Kharijism, Kosovar particularism, or any other integrist ideology that has its roots in a particular ethnic or religious group.

...and the destruction of the only Jewish State in the world can be viewed dispassionately and have no other significance or implications.

Another nice conflation there -- you're assuming that anti-Zionism automatically implies wanting to destroy Israel.

If you state you are left of center I’ll hazard a guess that you have an opinion on illegal immigration and you see racial implications and significance in that issue.

You know what they say about opinions. Everybody's got one.

But none when it comes to a group of people that have kind of gotten the short end of the stick (to put it very lightly) throughout recorded history? This isn’t sending a group of people that are in one country illegally back to their own country legally, this is the destruction of the group of people’s only country. The destruction of their country, their home. A specific group of people, whose vast majority of population throughout the world are for the continuation of that country. And you say the two can be separated, and the group and the idea of that group having a home can be/are separated have no racial or bigoted implications?

Yes, I do say that.

Do you see what nonsense that is? Anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism. Zionism is a Jew-friendly idea, Anti-Semitism is a not a Jew-friendly idea.

Squirrels have whiskers. Saddam had whiskers. Let's hang all squirrels!

Unless you believe the Jews are so stupid and savage that non-Jews know what’s best for Jews, and that super smart non-Jews working hand in hand with anti-Semitists to work towards the end of the Jews only home of their own is just grand and not another example of the Jews getting it in the rear again.

I see that and raise you one. Not only do I believe the Jews shouldn’t have a State of their own they can call home, I don’t believe they should have homes they should call home. Jews should move into the sewers because their owning houses along side normal-folk is just causing too much trouble in the world. The world would be a much better place if the Jews lived in the sewer. And no, this does not mean I’m anti-Semitic. I’m just really, really not pro-Zionist. Its just politics. I belong to a political group so its okay..

If you did actually believe that, I'd call you a disgusting racist and would want nothing at all to do with you.

The example of Jihad/Muslim perfectly articulates a lack of knowledge of the Koran. I’m going to go out on a limb and say you are currently in college. When you have read the Koran in its entirety and studied the life of Muhammad we can talk about that subject, until then there is no reason to even try.

As it happens, I have read the Qur'an in its entirety, and am passingly familiar with Islamic history and philosophy. If you were referring to my use of the term "jihadism," I only picked it out of courtesy, since I figured you might not be familiar with the term "neo-Kharijism."

Ionstormsucks

February 24th, 2008, 18:34

And rightfully so. It is not their social or any other responsibilty other than to make a product and to sell that product. It is up to the parents to decide whether or not they want their child to play that game or watch that movie or TV program or whatever.

As you might have realized I added an "(to a certain extent rightfully)"... somehow I don't like it that you cut that out. But nonetheless the question remains if it just the parents job. One can of course argue that way, but as said before, developers and publishers know very well that game stores, parents and all the other institutions involved in the process can simply not gurantee that the games will not end up in the hands of... I'm reluctant to use the word children, but let's say teenagers. From a logical point of view they might right, from an ethical and moral point they are not. I'm not someone who cries, "change the system," but I see the problems involved.

That's not the point. The problem is the double standard: games like The Witcher or Mass Effect don't have anything more explicit in them than what you see on prime-time TV, let alone T- (or perhaps even PG) rated movies.

As I said, I don't consider "The Witcher" a game which is especially explicit (don't know mass effect). I don't get all the fuzz about it. So I was talking more in general terms here. And from such a point of view the argument of a double standard is a rather weak one. The opinion that some branches of the media might not take proper responsibility for their doings does hardly justify doing the same. The logical reaction would be to criticise both.
Again, I'm not saying that "The Witcher" is a game that falls into this category. And I don't want to lead the topic to another track, but in my opinion there are in fact games ("The Witcher" NOT being one of them), that MIGHT not be suited for children/teenagers. The research of media effects is a difficult one and hardly anything has been proven on that particular field. And there is a lot of hypocrisy involved here on both sides.

LMAO....Ever hear of Henti or nude mods? Not just 12 year olds are into pixel images of virtual medieval chicks or why are there so many nude mods for Oblivion, Morrowind, KOTOR (ok not that many for KOTOR but they have Bastila nude patch), Tomb Raider, The sims 1 and 2 and WOW. Those are just a few off the top of my head and yes, I did download them:biggrin: I'm human and even in cartoon form the female body is a wonderous thing, my friend. But do you see a trend here. Not just twelve year olds like a little sexiness in their game. Who wants to make a bet that when the modding tools are released for The Witcher that some of the first mods will be a nude one.

I won't deny that some adults might be attracted by stuff like that - after all it's not a secret that in general sex helps to sell stuff. But, I'd argue that the majority of grown ups with a certain cognitive complexity prefer the real thing to the virtual one. It's not the fact that games contain elements like nudity or sexuality, it is the way how these elements are implemented. In the case of "The Witcher" I'd say that they adress a young audience, and not an adult one. The fact that there are so many nude patches doesn't prove much since it is fairly safe to assume that quite a few teenagers and young adults play games like Tomb Raider, The Sims, KOTOR, etc.
For me nudity and sexuality in games is, as I already mentioned, basically not a problem at all, since I don't consider these themes as something threatening to children or teenagers. That's different when it comes to pornography - I somehow doubt that pornography is suited for children for example.
My problem really lies more in the area of violence (also a theme not overly explicit in "The Witcher") and here the justification of certain game developers or publishers goes very much into the direction of "we are not responsible"... so basically they are using the same methodology that I tried to explain in my first post.

skavenhorde

February 25th, 2008, 09:26

As you might have realized I added an "(to a certain extent rightfully)"... somehow I don't like it that you cut that out. But nonetheless the question remains if it just the parents job. One can of course argue that way, but as said before, developers and publishers know very well that game stores, parents and all the other institutions involved in the process can simply not gurantee that the games will not end up in the hands of... I'm reluctant to use the word children, but let's say teenagers. From a logical point of view they might right, from an ethical and moral point they are not. I'm not someone who cries, "change the system," but I see the problems involved.

I'm leaving your whole paragraph in this time. I just cut it out last time to save space, not to misquote you. It is not the developers or publishers job to make sure it stays out of the hands of the children/teenagers. It's the parents’ job and maybe the stores job. Have you been to best buy lately? When I went to America I got carded at a Best Buy because I was purchasing Painkiller Overdose. I'm 32 years old and now they're carding people for mature games. For gods sakes people are treating games like drugs and porn now. Hey you can only play painkiller and drink beer when you're 18 lol. I think that is a responsible act in part of the stores. What more do people want from the industry?

Again, I'm not saying that "The Witcher" is a game that falls into this category. And I don't want to lead the topic to another track, but in my opinion there are in fact games ("The Witcher" NOT being one of them), that MIGHT not be suited for children/teenagers. The research of media effects is a difficult one and hardly anything has been proven on that particular field. And there is a lot of hypocrisy involved here on both sides.

I think I agree with you...I'm a little lost on your point here but I think you mean the rating industry right? Like how in the US violence is ok but nudity is a big no no and in the UK nudity is ok but violence is a big no no. In my opinion I think UK got it right. What would freak a kid out more, seeing in graphic detail somebody getting their head blown off or a naked lady? If somebody says naked lady..then there is something wrong with that individual and seek medical help immediatly :)

I won't deny that some adults might be attracted by stuff like that - after all it's not a secret that in general sex helps to sell stuff. But, I'd argue that the majority of grown ups with a certain cognitive complexity prefer the real thing to the virtual one. It's not the fact that games contain elements like nudity or sexuality; it is the way how these elements are implemented. In the case of "The Witcher" I'd say that they adress a young audience, and not an adult one. The fact that there are so many nude patches doesn't prove much since it is fairly safe to assume that quite a few teenagers and young adults play games like Tomb Raider, The Sims, KOTOR, etc.

LMAO...nice little underhanded shot at me :biggrin: I love the way you put it "majority of grown ups with a certain cognitive complexity prefer the real thing to the virtual one." Man that is good...you get in two shots for the price of one. Implying I'm neither grown up or intelligent. Well, I wasn't talking about sex now was I, kiddo. I also prefer the real deal there ;) but I am also not ashamed about liking the female form in all of its glory. I think you are quite mistaken with the number of people who enjoy what you consider childish or just for young adults. Go to Japan and see how many different comics they have for all ages, not just kids. Also, check out the download stats on nude mods or even that The Witcher already has a nude patch and the toolset isn't even out yet(didn't know about that nude patch, gotta login to The Witcher forum more often)

For me nudity and sexuality in games is, as I already mentioned, basically not a problem at all, since I don't consider these themes as something threatening to children or teenagers. That's different when it comes to pornography - I somehow doubt that pornography is suited for children for example.
My problem really lies more in the area of violence (also a theme not overly explicit in "The Witcher") and here the justification of certain game developers or publishers goes very much into the direction of "we are not responsible"... so basically they are using the same methodology that I tried to explain in my first post.

The more I read what you say, the more I like it :) I think we are quibbling over little issues. I'm for the free market and you think that the developers should be held somewhat responsible. The problem is when do you draw the line. People aren't dumb, they can decide for themselves and if the developer pushes it too far, just watch how fast that developer goes out of business. Manhunter and Manhunter 2 comes to mind. Those are pieces of garbage that I won’t buy. I don’t think it did very well in sales either, but I could be wrong since I don’t give a rat’s behind about it. Will I cry wolf and say that it shouldn’t be made or even sold? No, let “grown ups” decide for themselves.

Anyways, I like what you say about too much violence and having a problem with it because that is what I think too. But in the end the parents and people will decide what they and their children play or not play.

Ionstormsucks

February 25th, 2008, 12:34

For gods sakes people are treating games like drugs and porn now. Hey you can only play painkiller and drink beer when you're 18 lol. I think that is a responsible act in part of the stores. What more do people want from the industry?

Well, if the system is working than we don't have to change something... in your case it obviously worked, so that's great. But we know that in many cases it doesn't. And even if it doesn't work I'm not saying that we necessarily have to change something. The problem is that the games industry is holding a "everything goes" mentality which is backed up by the "adult label".

I think I agree with you...I'm a little lost on your point here but I think you mean the rating industry right? Like how in the US violence is ok but nudity is a big no no and in the UK nudity is ok but violence is a big no no. In my opinion I think UK got it right. What would freak a kid out more, seeing in graphic detail somebody getting their head blown off or a naked lady? If somebody says naked lady..then there is something wrong with that individual and seek medical help immediatly :)

Hey, you explained it much better than I did!

LMAO...nice little underhanded shot at me :biggrin: I love the way you put it "majority of grown ups with a certain cognitive complexity prefer the real thing to the virtual one." Man that is good...you get in two shots for the price of one. Implying I'm neither grown up or intelligent. Well, I wasn't talking about sex now was I, kiddo. I also prefer the real deal there ;) but I am also not ashamed about liking the female form in all of its glory. I think you are quite mistaken with the number of people who enjoy what you consider childish or just for young adults. Go to Japan and see how many different comics they have for all ages, not just kids. Also, check out the download stats on nude mods or even that The Witcher already has a nude patch and the toolset isn't even out yet(didn't know about that nude patch, gotta login to The Witcher forum more often)

I'm sorry... my intention was not to offend you. I only said that a majority of grown up prefers one thing over the other. That does not mean that something is wrong with the minority. And I used the term "cognitive complexity" because it sums up several factors wich might play a role in such a process. That does not mean that people who like something different are stupid or anything of that sort. But it's a simple truth that not everyone who is 18 (or even older... mid 20s, mid 30s, etc) has an adult mind set. Again, I don't want to disqualify people here... there is nothing bad with having a "childish" mind... I think that it can be very refreshing at times.
I have to admit that I have almost no experience with sexuality in games. I researched violence in the media for 2 years at university, it never even crossed my mind that nudity could be an interesting field as well. That might have to do with the fact that in Germany, where I live, nudity and sexuality in the media is not a big thing. Violence however is heatedly discussed...
So, I'm only guessing here. You might be right that I am wrong when it comes to sexuality in video games. I just worked from the following assumption: How much of a factor is sexuality (or nudity, etc.) in the process of buying a game? If it is a factor that plays a big role then games with such elements should usually sell more copies than other games... but I'm not sure if that's true. But as I said, my experience there is limited. Probably there are quite a few intervening variables, for example that there market is dominated by the USA, the quality of games, etc.

The more I read what you say, the more I like it :) I think we are quibbling over little issues. I'm for the free market and you think that the developers should be held somewhat responsible. The problem is when do you draw the line. People aren't dumb, they can decide for themselves and if the developer pushes it too far, just watch how fast that developer goes out of business. Manhunter and Manhunter 2 comes to mind. Those are pieces of garbage that I won’t buy. I don’t think it did very well in sales either, but I could be wrong since I don’t give a rat’s behind about it. Will I cry wolf and say that it shouldn’t be made or even sold? No, let “grown ups” decide for themselves.

Anyways, I like what you say about too much violence and having a problem with it because that is what I think too. But in the end the parents and people will decide what they and their children play or not play.

Very true... and I really can only agree to what you wrote there. But again, I'm not so much aiming at changing the system from the outside. I just wanted to show that there is a certain hypocrisy involved on both sides. Let me give you an example:

In Germany there is a big discussion going on if something like media induced violence exists or not. A lot of conservative politicans consider video games (and other media) the devil's work and of course the media are responsible if a teenager takes his father's gun and shoots his classmates. On the other hand you have quite a few gamers (a lot of them organized in initivatives nowadays) who will tell you that something like media effects, especially media induced violence does not exist, that games are just fantasy and not the real world, etc. Usually these gamers work together with the gaming industry. Now, I don't want to discuss if or if not media induced violence does exist - let's just say there are a lot of controverse studies... in fact the topic is extremly complex. What I want to show is the ironic hypocrisy that is involved in the relationship between these gamers and the gaming industry. For years now the gaming industry has tried to widen the boundaries of how much violence you can show in video games (mutilation of dead bodies, etc.)... I would call that a natural process, since violence in video games is attractive to certain audiences. We know violent games usually sell quite well (if the quality of the game is ok). The ironic thing is that by pushing the boundaries the gaming industry inevitably provokes a conservative backlash that goes way beyond what is reasonable. The result will be that society will in fact begin to include rather harmless games (like "The Witcher") in a discussion which does not even concern them. In Germany, for example, World of Warcraft was for a brief time mixed up with the "violence in media" discussion (and let's face it - in terms of violence it really cannot get any more harmless than WoW).
So what many gamers don't see is that the gaming industry is at least partly responsible for the ongoing discussion. It is exactely the gaming industry's attitude that "in games everything should be allowed" that so to speak backs up the argumentation of more conservative forces in society.