New York New York

[curiously undead]

states up
big bro down
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/3/10/new_york_bill_to_declare_abortion

[JemyM]

And in Oklahoma failure to do your schoolwork can now be excused by claiming it was against your religion.
http://www.edmondsun.com/opinion/local_story_067125346.html

[Squeek]

And there's this (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/10/spitzer/index.html). So much for Spitzer.

[Nukester]

Like this state isnt in enough trouble

$5500 an hour. Thats nuts. Thats the highest Ive ever heard for a hooker, through all of the "celebrity" prositution busts.

He hasnt resigned as of right now, but his camp is saying he is going to.

Hell, I dont even know who the Lieutenant Governor is. How does this work ? If he steps down, will they have an election in November ?

Edit: I just looked up the Lieutenant Governor of New York, and he's blind. Looks like he has a decent track record though I guess. Was a representative to the Senate out of Harlem. Also the first non-white minority leader in New York state history.

More about Lieutenant Gov. David Paterson:

the first non-white legislative leader in New York’s history. In 2004 in Boston, he became the first visually impaired person to address a Democratic National Convention. And 2006 saw Mr. Paterson make history again by being elected New York’s first African-American lieutenant governor.

As New York State Senate minority leader, David Paterson led the charge on several crucial issues for New York’s future, proposing legislation for a $1 billion voter-approved stem cell research initiative, demanding a statewide alternative energy strategy, insisting on strong action to fight against domestic violence, and serving as the primary champion for minority- and women-owned businesses in New York. As a result, Governor Spitzer asked Mr. Paterson to continue to lead New York State on these issues as lieutenant governor.

Lt. Governor Paterson, who is legally blind, is also nationally recognized as a leading advocate for the visually and physically impaired. A graduate of Columbia University and Hofstra Law School, Mr. Paterson also currently serves as an adjunct professor at Columbia’s School for International and Public Affairs. David Paterson lives in Harlem with his wife, Michelle, and their two children, Ashley and Alex, and he is the son of Basil Paterson, the first non-white secretary of state of New York and the first African-American vice-chair of the national Democratic Party.

This state is such a mess

[Squeek]

It's not all doom and gloom. The prostitutes are doing well, apparently.

[blatantninja]

This state is such a mess

That's a massive understatement.

[zahratustra]

And in Oklahoma failure to do your schoolwork can now be excused by claiming it was against your religion.
I think that biblical quote is called for here: "For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: it hath no stalk: the bud shall yield no meal: if so be it yield, the strangers shall swallow it up." — Hosea 8:7

Nukester - $5500 per hour is a small change to City high flyers but, for those on a smaller budget, there were (apparently) call girls who (apparently) charged only a paltry $1000 per hour.

[magerette]

And in Oklahoma failure to do your schoolwork can now be excused by claiming it was against your religion.
http://www.edmondsun.com/opinion/local_story_067125346.html

It's not law here yet--it has to pass the Senate first--and I would think it will stall out there, even though there are plenty of religious whack-o's around here. I sincerely hope this thing won't fly. It sounds like an invitation to a lengthy legal battle to me.

Lt. Governor Paterson, who is legally blind, is also nationally recognized as a leading advocate for the visually and physically impaired. A graduate of Columbia University and Hofstra Law School, Mr. Paterson also currently serves as an adjunct professor at Columbia’s School for International and Public Affairs

As Arlo Guthrie once said, "another typical case of American blind justice" ;)

[curiously undead]

sorry to beat a state when its down but has anyone heard of Sally Kern, the scary thing is probably not alone but just one beam in a thousand points of light...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFxk7glmMbo

[curiously undead]

and back to the beginging, spitzer is a fool and maybe should resign but i always find it funny how people care about the sex acts of others more than the criminal and diabolical...sin is greater than high crimes. also the timing couldn't be worse for any efforts made to erase the patriarchal vericose veins that have existed on dear mother earth for so long and keep her from being tip-top.

[Dez]

And in Oklahoma failure to do your schoolwork can now be excused by claiming it was against your religion.
http://www.edmondsun.com/opinion/local_story_067125346.html

Wow...quess some people don't have to read for their biology tests anymore if that goes through.

[zahratustra]

and back to the beginging, spitzer is a fool and maybe should resign but i always find it funny how people care about the sex acts of others more than the criminal and diabolical...sin is greater than high crimes.

Apparently there is more to this story than just sex curiously undead. Seems like sex could have been financed by highier crime...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/11/nyregion/11inquire.html?ref=todayspaper

[magerette]

sorry to beat a state when its down but has anyone heard of Sally Kern, the scary thing is probably not alone but just one beam in a thousand points of light...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFxk7glmMbo

God that's scary. Wish she was in my district--I could at least vote against her. Not that she's alone in these views--this is pure Bible Belt reasoning and I hear it every day. Sadly, she's just repeating what her Baptist preacher husband is spouting from behind the pulpit.

[JemyM]

sorry to beat a state when its down but has anyone heard of Sally Kern, the scary thing is probably not alone but just one beam in a thousand points of light...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFxk7glmMbo

I have left christianity, however, I am well enough read on the bible and I know christianity enough to crush this woman completely and her comments as pure heresy. If she calls herself "christian" I would say "you're not".

First up, she is playing God and she is abusing Gods name for her personal beliefs, that's breaking the first and second commandment. She cannot back up what she said and breaks the eight commandment. She judges and shall therefore be judged. She breaks the golden rule. She cannot even handle the Christian "love thy enemy" commandment. etc. etc.

[txa1265]

Apparently there is more to this story than just sex curiously undead. Seems like sex could have been financed by highier crime...

This is not a story like a Japanese minister having mistresses ... this is about a crusading former attorney general who fully embraced his press image of modern day Eliot Ness, who has then gone and engaged in illegal solicitation and only stopped because he was caught rather than because he realized what he was doing was wrong. That said, it doesn't deserve the magnitude of attention it is getting. And that is because of the sex thing - if he was caught with an illegal betting pool for the Super Bowl, would he get drummed out of office?

As for the two Nebraska things:
- the woman was interesting to listen to because she was spewing unfiltered hate and couching it in terms like "I'm not gay-bashing, but ... ". Thing it, people like that will always exist and exist in every corner of the globe, but the scary thing is when they gain favor and power.
- as for those religious 'freedom' laws, they remind me of the ideas that young kids have when they are playing, the sort that sound great to them but crumble when challenged. It is amazing that adults assemble and put these to paper and make them law. There is a reason for separation of church and state, especially in schools - the best way to ensure freedom is to keep the education zone free of the influence of religion.

[magerette]

Nice summing up, Mike---and I wish it was Nebraska. (You east coast elitests--we're all the same west of the Mississippi..;) )

[Corwin]

I totally disagree that freedom needs religion kept out of education!! I don't mean brainwashing, I mean education. People, especially children need a complete education and that includes religious studies so they can make educated decisions for themselves eventually!! Perhaps we're at cross purposes here, but how is banning something an expression of freedom?

[txa1265]

Nice summing up, Mike---and I wish it was Nebraska. (You east coast elitests--we're all the same west of the Mississippi..;) )

hehe ... there was an actual reason beyond my Ivory Tower upbringing :D ... I was emailing two friends at a company in Lincoln, NE at the same time!

[txa1265]

Perhaps we're at cross purposes here, but how is banning something an expression of freedom?

There is a difference between religious studies and religious interpretations of currently accepted scientific knowledge.

Because every sentence out of someone teaching health, science or literature would look like something out of the Art of War:

Master Teacher: The sky is blue because of the refractive nature of light and the dispersion of atmospheric particles.

Religion #1: Actually the sky is blue because ...

Religion #2: ...

...

Neo-religious cult #9999: ...

and so on. Because once you allow one religious re-interpretation, you will have to allow *all* religious interpretations equal weight and time, otherwise you have state imposition of religion.

[Corwin]

We must be at cross purposes, what you are talking about, was not what I deduced from your original comment!! After all, we all know the sky is blue because the sun god uses a blue paint roller as he drives his chariot across the sky!! :)

[txa1265]

We must be at cross purposes, what you are talking about, was not what I deduced from your original comment!! After all, we all know the sky is blue because the sun god uses a blue paint roller as he drives his chariot across the sky!! :)

Implicit in my initial post was the assumed knowledge that in the US, 'freedom of religious expression' in schools actually means 'Bible based Christian religious education that supersedes *and excludes* anything that religious leaders disagree with.'

[Squeek]

In California private schools are the best schools, and everybody knows it. Many are associated with churches. My wife works at a Catholic school, and the kids have it made.

If schools educated robots, then all they would ever have to provide is a quality education. But expecting kids to work like robots is unrealistic. They spend most of their waking hours in schools the entire time they're growing up. Like it or not they learn plenty that's not in the books they study.

It's a mistake to consider religion an exclusionary concern. Religion should be studied and understood. Otherwise some kids will become screwed up adults. It works both ways.

[zahratustra]

There is a difference between religious studies and religious interpretations of currently accepted scientific knowledge.

And that's the kicker... because it is the later and not the former that authors of proposed legislation are aiming for.

[magerette]

@Corwin: Being exposed to religions and philosophy is of course very important in any education. What the bill we're discussing does, however, is open the door not to professionally taught courses, but to students interrupting them to speak their own views, whatever they may be. While this may be valid and even interesting in a discussion, it certainly seems intrusive and disruptive to have a ten year old stand up and start arguing with the teacher in the middle of science class.

Saw it on the news tonight--it's really looking like it will pass. :(

Edit: See also zahratustra's post that sneaked in ahead of mine while I was writing. :)

[zahratustra]

"zahrathutra" huh? Are calling me names magerette? :)

It will be really tough on kids.... Imagine them trying to get to "normal" college or university after getting education like that?

[magerette]

"zahrathutra" huh? Are calling me names magerette? :)

It will be really tough on kids.... Imagine them trying to get to "normal" college or university after getting education like that?

Oops, sorry--you can call me margerette if that will help. ;) I must have confused it with Nietzsche and the Strauss music in 2001:A Space Odyssey ( Also Sprach Zarathustra ) and something went terribly wrong...:embarrassed:

I agree with Mike that this is a Bill that sounds all touchy-feely good, but actually will create more problems than it will address--and with you, in that MIT is not going to be impressed when you advocate your alternative religious theories on your college entrance exams. All these kids will have to go to Oral Roberts U (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_Roberts_University) or somewhere.

[Corwin]

But isn't challenging so called 'facts', the way of progress? Didn't the great discoveries throughout history come because people challenged commonly accepted 'facts'? As a former teacher, I loved it when I was challenged; it showed they were THINKING, not just being sponges and it frequently lead to great discussion where everyone learned something. I'm not advocating chaos, or total disruption here, simply advocating the 'discovery' method of learning. Learning to defend your beliefs is a vital element in obtaining a 'good' education!!

[curiously undead]

in Northern California at least public schools are pretty stellar, i suppose each have its merits but private schools usually fall into two categories: religious (mostly catholic) and the smaller 'hippie' schools which usually don't go past middle school. i attended public school my whole childhood as well as church reguarly and was active in many programs there. they were pretty clear in their distintictions in that while both helped shape me and my morals nothing at church would classify as education. i'm glad they were separate and thankful to have had quality experiences. i was also an eagle scout and active for many years with that which, thankfully was also not tied to a church. the separtion of each of these in my opinion exposed me to a large breth of ideas, and types of people. had they all been packaged together in a nice magical kingdom i would have been deprived of quite a lot i think, even if my gpa may have boosted a few points.

public school or die;)

[JemyM]

School do not only have the purpose of teaching you what we know, it also have the purpose of exposing you to life and the world around you so it becomes less scary and less confusing. One who go to a school that tells their student that their "kind" are the ones who go there, and the ones that go to other schools are thus not your "kind", are indoctrinated into segregation, no matter how much they are told to "respect others". And when a child or a teenager is labeled "catholic" or "muslim" it's pretty much a religious apartheid, keeping humans apart with imaginary lines in the dirt, not far from seeing people different based on their race, their class, or the way they talk. There are no "political ideology" schools for a good reason. There are no such thing as a Socialist School or a College of Economic Liberals, and there are no such thing as a Feminist child or a Secular Humanist child. Somehow it's just natural in our culture to accept it when parents wish to label their children at childbirth, keeping them apart from different children.

[dteowner]

Anyone that thinks school in the US is about "thinking" is sadly mistaken. They teach to the test, which I would also do sitting in their situation. Critical thought is long gone, folks.

[txa1265]

Anyone that thinks school in the US is about "thinking" is sadly mistaken. They teach to the test, which I would also do sitting in their situation. Critical thought is long gone, folks.

What we have found is that critical thinking is the purview of after-school enrichments and 'gifted and talented' programs. I have managed a group for Destination Imagination (creative problem solving) for four years, and love helping kids expand their brains that way. We have been fortunate to have our boys in gifted programs, as they are dwindling all around the country. Fortunately the new school system we're moving into is very well resourced!

[Corwin]

At least here in our school system, both public and private, critical thinking is taught and encouraged. To me, it's the most important skill a person can learn after the basics of the 3 R's!!

[JemyM]

Critical thinking is required to get higher grades over here and I have to confess that it's a mixed blessing...

When you have to apply it in school you are rewarded when you criticize your schoolbook and your teacher, but not in your every day life. Thus it's perfectly ok to feel good when you are a critic to whatever your school teaches you and then outside school read your horoscope every day and defend your parents ideology without actually reading what it's about. The effect there is a dumbed down society where education shoots itself in the foot.

[magerette]

Back to the New York topic, according to Shacknews (http://blog.shacknews.com/blogarticle.x/51689), it appears that Mr. Spitzer is another voice against the evil vice that is computer videogames. I didn't really see his name too prominently in any of this, so New Yorkers correct me if this is just an exaggeration:
Spitzer, an outspoken critic of the gaming industry, late last year unveiled a video detailing the dangers of violent gaming called "Video Games and Children: Virtual Playground vs. Danger Zone". The video cited hoax web site MAVAV, a well-documented satire site, among its sources.

[Squeek]

Thomas Sowell (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/nonjudgmental_nonsense.html) commented on Spitzer today, and I thought he made a lot of sense. Interestingly (and surprisingly), he compared Spitzer to Barak Obama.

[blatantninja]

First I heard of it, but then if he thought it would get him in front of the cameras, it doesn't surprise me. He is the ultimate media whore.

[curiously undead]

a website that has opinion pieces by karl rove--sound like a great place for the voices of democracy. i could compare a goat and a bottlecap with more similarities.
and actually everyone has failed to get the original intent of this post--womens rights and how some states are taking a preemtive strike against the chipping away at roe v wade and women's health issues.

also who the hell cares about spitzer, he's gone, and plenty of corporate new yorkers are happy. can we talk about his replacemnt, david paterson, who seems like a top notch guy whose done a lot for the people of harlem.

also it saddens me greatly to see there's still those who think global warming isn't going to turn our planet into a post-apoc setting without nukes. sorry corporations but you really can't fool to many people these days, though once again the administration today has stepped in an weakened an already weak EPA.

congress and the senate don't matter
the supreme court doesn't matter
the citizens of america don't matter
the world doesn't matter
but me does...

[blatantninja]

also who the hell cares about spitzer, he's gone, and plenty of corporate new yorkers are happy. can we talk about his replacemnt, david paterson, who seems like a top notch guy whose done a lot for the people of harlem.

I like patterson from what I've seen. At the very least, he seems to be a uniter and is well respected by both parties.

also it saddens me greatly to see there's still those who think global warming isn't going to turn our planet into a post-apoc setting without nukes. sorry corporations but you really can't fool to many people these days, though once again the administration today has stepped in an weakened an already weak EPA.

That's because it isn't going to turn our planet into a post-apoc without nukes. It will change it significantly, cause lots of famines and other hardship, may well bring the US to it's knees, but it's not going to be post-apoc.

[Eliaures]

I'm pretty late to this thread and to the controversy over Eliot Spitzer, but I have to say I was quite saddened by this. I was a big supporter of Mr. Spitzer when he was AG for New York. I was encouraged by his pursuit of fraud and corruption on Wall Street. I was happy to see Mr. Spitzer win the governorship of NY and I had planned to support his run for the Presidency which I was pretty sure he was gunning for. Now this.

I'm beginning to wonder if it's ever worthwhile to support a politician. The career seems to attract the most reckless people; John F. Kennedy, Gary Hart, Bill Clinton, Henry Cisneros. Mr. Cisneros was another with a really promising path that might have taken him to the Texas Governorship and possibly to the White House. Yet another scandal involving an sexual affair.

Still, it's so bloody silly that we end the careers of some worthy men over something so trivial. I'm not saying that Eliot Spitzer didn't deserve what he got, he showed himself to be a supreme hypocrite and certainly knew the risks he was taking. I'm just lamenting the ridiculous state of morality in this nation. Prostitution should not be illegal and what you do in with your junk should not have to be covered up to the extent you have to commit the greater crime, lying and the cover up, whether you're Henry Cisneros or Larry Craig.

[blatantninja]

I'm pretty late to this thread and to the controversy over Eliot Spitzer, but I have to say I was quite saddened by this. I was a big supporter of Mr. Spitzer when he was AG for New York. I was encouraged by his pursuit of fraud and corruption on Wall Street.

I supported him at first (and I work in the investment industry), but by 2002 or so, it became very obvious that he no longer cared about going after real criminals and instead just was doing what it took to keep his name on the front page.

Still, it's so bloody silly that we end the careers of some worthy men over something so trivial. I'm not saying that Eliot Spitzer didn't deserve what he got, he showed himself to be a supreme hypocrite and certainly knew the risks he was taking. I'm just lamenting the ridiculous state of morality in this nation. Prostitution should not be illegal and what you do in with your junk should not have to be covered up to the extent you have to commit the greater crime, lying and the cover up, whether you're Henry Cisneros or Larry Craig.

I can agree with that. Though I cheered with the rest of my trading desk when it broke, so long as he wasn't using government funds for it, I really don't care (of course, I also don't think prostitution should be illegal in the first place).

When Clinton was taken to the woodshed over Cigargate, I got the feeling the rest of the world was laughing about it saying "what's the big deal?"

[Squeek]

When Clinton was taken to the woodshed over Cigargate, I got the feeling the rest of the world was laughing about it saying "what's the big deal?"I travelled through Europe that year, and everywhere I went that's exactly what they were doing and asking.

[dteowner]

Actually, that's what Clinton was doing, too, as I remember...

It really is a shame that, after so much alleged corruption (I'm trying not to start a "prove it" fight over the laundry list of scandals) the only thing that he actually got in trouble for was lying about a hummer (under oath to Congress, but still).

[txa1265]

Still, it's so bloody silly that we end the careers of some worthy men over something so trivial. I'm not saying that Eliot Spitzer didn't deserve what he got, he showed himself to be a supreme hypocrite and certainly knew the risks he was taking. I'm just lamenting the ridiculous state of morality in this nation. Prostitution should not be illegal and what you do in with your junk should not have to be covered up to the extent you have to commit the greater crime, lying and the cover up, whether you're Henry Cisneros or Larry Craig.

I completely agree in theory - if he was just 'bangin' some broad' I would think it was nobodies business but his wife's. Unfortunately when you take a stand like he did and it blows up in your face, you deal with the consequences. This usually happens to moralistic conservatives who are so ready to judge others but never quite stand up well to it themselves ...

[dteowner]

This usually happens to moralistic conservatives who are so ready to judge others but never quite stand up well to it themselves ...I find an utter lack of morals works well for me... ;)

[JemyM]

When Clinton was taken to the woodshed over Cigargate, I got the feeling the rest of the world was laughing about it saying "what's the big deal?"

I read somewhere "When Clinton lied, no one died".

[txa1265]

I read somewhere "When Clinton lied, no one died".

That has been thrown into ever-so-stark relief in the past 8 years ...

But as for Clinton, he is a major league slimebag, who has earned every bit of hate and disdain thrown his way. He isn't called 'slick Willie' for nothing. And he has a wonderful way of playing victim ... when he started playing 'race cards' in South Carolina and got called on it, he s now calling that criticism 'a mugging'. Gimme a break.

[blatantninja]

I read somewhere "When Clinton lied, no one died".

True, but he also didn't take out Bin Laden when he could have!

[JemyM]

True, but he also didn't take out Bin Laden when he could have!

We should be happy then, that Bush did take out Saddam Hussein when he could. I applaud this effort. It was worth sacrificing the crown of the western civilization.

[Squeek]

Start murdering people, JemyM, and make your intentions clear that you aren't going to stop, and then see if some people don't start considering whether to take you out too.

Murder isn't OK, even if it's OK with you.

[blatantninja]

We should be happy then, that Bush did take out Saddam Hussein when he could. I applaud this effort. It was worth sacrificing the crown of the western civilization.

Well, I am glad we took out Saddam, though I do think we royally f-ed it up. I don't see any crown of western civilization being sacrificed though.

[JemyM]

Start murdering people, JemyM, and make your intentions clear that you aren't going to stop, and then see if some people don't start considering whether to take you out too.
Murder isn't OK, even if it's OK with you.

*disclaimer* the following post might make no sense.

There's two layers of this quote. The first really should be common sense to anyone who lived up in the developed world. We know that if you attack a people, that people will retaliate. However, this is not known to people who do not understand or do not believe the great lessons of history, which is sad. History still repeats itself even if we try to teach our young ones so that they might avoid repeating our mistakes.

The second is a statement of what's right and wrong... The problem with all such statements is that they are statements based on personal wisdom/knowledge, not natural instincts. There are no such thing as a natural right or wrong. Natural instincts simply go with whatever improve your chances for survival, which might include killing your foe because you are afraid they might attack you first. What you do is to make a suggestion, one that I personally agree with, even if not everyone will.

[Prime Junta]

Start murdering people, JemyM, and make your intentions clear that you aren't going to stop, and then see if some people don't start considering whether to take you out too.

Murder isn't OK, even if it's OK with you.

Hm. What was that bit in the Bible about finding grit in someone else's eye, but missing the big ol' log in your own again?

[Corwin]

That only applies to Christians!! :biggrin: