RPGWatch Feature: Dungeon Lords Retrospective

[Dhruin]

We're planning to publish an irregular series of retrospectives going forward and Michael "txa1265" J. Anderson is first cab of the rank, starting with D.W. Bradley's Dungeon Lords. Why Dungeon Lords? You'll have to ask Mike about that but in the meantime, this article should give some insight. Here's a snip:
Braindead: when advancing in tiers of your class path you will be presented with the requirements for that level and whether or not you meet those requirements. For example, if you start as a Mage and complete the quest to become Sorcerer as a second-tier Mage class, the guild master will say ‘The Requirements are X, you meet those, would you like to advance?’ But you might realize that you don't actually meet any of those requirements! Don't worry - class advancement requirements are on the honor system! Seriously though, it looks like they wanted to implement them but didn't integrate them well enough that folks would be prepared, and the thought of forcing players to trudge back and forth checking requirements caused them to pitch the requirements...but not the dialogue stating whether or not the player met them.
Read it here (http://www.rpgwatch.com//forums/../show/article?articleid=83&ref=0&id=228).
More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=8947)

[Dhruin]

I'm going to be a smarty and say that vinegar was being too kind right from the get-go.

I'd have liked your thoughts on the character classing system. I like the way you can buy skills at any time but the forced multiclassing adept/fighter/paladin/samurai/crusader/war witch combinations are ludicrous and paper-thin. Sure, you can create some bizarre multi thief/samurai bastardisation but it makes absolutely no sense and there's no depth in any of the classes.

[Shagnak_forgottologin]

However, the balancing decision DWB made was to make spell regeneration so slow - even when resting - that it turns the game to an 'inaction' RPG.
I found it funny that you could actually pause the game and have your spells regenerate while the game was paused. Saved my bacon a couple of times when I found that my ubar spells had depleted. Took a while, so I just used it as an opportunity to get off my arse and have a coffee.

(Was this errr ....'feature'... removed in the CE?)

[txa1265]

I'd have liked your thoughts on the character classing system.

I think that what you said more or less echoes what I said. Unlike a game such as Divine Divinity where you can easily cross-classes, the requirements in DL force it to such a degree to completely mess with even the most basic choices. My 'pure mage' (most commonly played character) was a mage / fighter / thief in reality in order to survive and get to quest required elements.

[CrazyIrish]

I think most of the points made in the article are pretty dead on. In my opinion, it is a little too kind overall. Or maybe way too kind. Maybe my expectations were high. I figured HP and DWB had to have gotten their act together after W&W. I was wrong. All in all, a good deal of promise, and good bit more dissapointment. Oh well, I still have my dosbox and my Wizardry 7...

[DarNoor]

This game sold over 1 million copies? How did that happen?

[Gorath]

Probably budget and covermounts.

Although Mike´s article could be understood otherwise I think it´s not confirmed DWB´s company is involved in the next DL games.

[Ionstormsucks]

Always thought he should have sticked to W&W - while not perfect the game was much better than Dungeon Lords. He should have improved on the first part really and do a second W&W.

Dungeon Lords was simply meh... don't know why, but I liked the artwork... but that's about it.

[rooroosta]

I really liked Wizards and Warriors..very Dungeon Master-esque..Dungeon Lords wasn't as good it has to be said.

[magic_screen]

Dungeon Lords is a very good dungeon crawler and I haven't played the CE version yet :)

[JDR13]

Wizards and Warriors was ok but it was very poorly coded, it's almost impossible to get it to run properly on any OS later than Windows 98. I recently tried to get it to run on XP with a new nVidia card and finally gave up after wasting 6+ hours.

[Shagnak_oopswotlogin]

Wizards and Warriors was ok but it was very poorly coded, it's almost impossible to get it to run properly on any OS later than Windows 98.
Well, plenty of people play it on 2000 and XP so it's hardly "impossible". It has never taken me much effort. Or several Codexers who have been giving it a go recently.

I was going to recommend this thread for instructions on what to do:
http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31762
...but I see you're already posting there.

[Dhruin]

That's interesting, because a couple of years back I tried to get W&W going in XP and couldn't. Did a google search and came up with nothing but complaints, so I assumed it couldn't be done.

...eh, but I don't have the motivation now.

[Shagnak_again]

Oh well, your Google-fu must suck ;-)

I first completed the game on XP about 5 years ago and have reinstalled it since. There are plenty of people that have never got it going (whether through giving up on it or their particular OS/hardware set-up), but I would hate for people to think from the get-go that it is "impossible" and never get the opportunity to try this... ummm... "flawed gem".

(Championing the Shit Games Liberation Front right to the end... :-))

[JDR13]

Well, plenty of people play it on 2000 and XP so it's hardly "impossible". It has never taken me much effort. Or several Codexers who have been giving it a go recently.

I was going to recommend this thread for instructions on what to do:
http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31762
...but I see you're already posting there.


I didn't say "impossible" so stop misquoting me, I said "almost", and it is.

I have tried every known trick on the net to get it to run on my system with no luck. You say you played in on XP about 5 years ago so that means you played it before any of the service packs had been added, that might be the reason you were able to run it. I have talked to others who have tried to run it on WinXP+ SP2 and I haven't found a single person yet who got it to work properly.

There was one person over at Ironworks that was experiencing the same issue I was who finally got it to work by using a program called QEMU, which actually emulates an entirely different system on your computer. I downloaded it and gave it a try but couldn't quite figure out how to run it. I finally decided it just wasn't worth going through all that.

[Shagnak_again]

You say you played in on XP about 5 years ago so that means you played it before any of the service packs had been added, that might be the reason you were able to run it.
Yeah, originally. But I have played it within the last couple of years and that is likely to be post - SP2 (SP2 was released mid 2004).
And, as stated before, there are people on the Codex who have been playing it recently and I can't imagine that their secret was to have a computer that they haven't updated for over 2 years.


There was one person over at Ironworks that was experiencing the same issue I was who finally got it to work by using a program called QEMU, which actually emulates an entirely different system on your computer. I downloaded it and gave it a try but couldn't quite figure out how to run it. I finally decided it just wasn't worth going through all that.
There are other easier to use alternatives than QEMU for emulating another OS. VMWare Server is free, as is VirtualBox and that MS one (VirtualPC?). No idea about W&W success - but I imagine that the virtual video cards in each case lack the 3D functionality required. I could be wrong.

[Shagnak_again]

Anyway, this bears more investigation...
I've been meaning to load it up yet again.

Apologies for the thread derailment txa!

[JDR13]

There are other easier to use alternatives than QEMU for emulating another OS. VMWare Server is free, as is VirtualBox and that MS one (VirtualPC?). No idea about W&W success - but I imagine that the virtual video cards in each case lack the 3D functionality required. I could be wrong.

Yes you can use those, but then it would run only in software rendering.

[txa1265]

No worries about derailment! W&W is one I have meant to get playing again. I had it going on XP a couple of years ago, but I also think it was pretty 'funky' to get running. I assumed it was laptop support factors.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Interestingly, the cover of Dungeon Lords I see here is very different from the one I know from Germany.

Look here: http://www.amazon.de/dtp-Entertainment-AG-Dungeon-DVD-ROM/dp/3899562151/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1210592972&sr=8-2

I often see similar differences ... Neverend, for example. Totally different covers.

[Turjan]

I'm going to be a smarty and say that vinegar was being too kind right from the get-go.
I agree. It's really hard to resist such a hook :). In all fairness, I haven't made it into one of the dungeons yet.

[Turjan]

I didn't say "impossible" so stop misquoting me, I said "almost", and it is.
I've seen W&W offered on amazon with the warning: Does not run under Windows XP! At least the seller is aware that it's a problem.

[JDR13]

I've seen W&W offered on amazon with the warning: Does not run under Windows XP! At least the seller is aware that it's a problem.


I don't think it's WinXP by itself, but rather a combination of XP and newer video cards and drivers. It also doesn't seem to like any Direct X later than DX 8.

[chamr]

Surprise! Here I am! :)
but the forced multiclassing adept/fighter/paladin/samurai/crusader/war witch combinations are ludicrous and paper-thin. Sure, you can create some bizarre multi thief/samurai bastardisation but it makes absolutely no sense
Dude. DL is not about making sense. If you want multi-classing that hews to some objective sense of RPG "sense", play a D&D game. DL is about fun. That's all.

and there's no depth in any of the classes.
Au contraire. The classes you choose make a big difference in how your character plays and what they can achieve. Don't underestimate the value of the learning bonuses and new skill access. You can build very different characters around what the classes give you access to and what they make easier to learn.

don't know why, but I liked the artwork...

+1 to that, my friend. Two of the greatly under appreciated aspects of this game, IMHO, are the art design and the monster design. And I think Mike does the game a disservice to keep characterizing the AI behavior as all the same. Not so. Most of the monsters have unique behaviors, which I always found enjoyable. Sure, you can oversimplify and say they all mob you, but I think that's a bit lazy. There really is a significant difference in how the slimes attack you versus how the goblins attack you versus how a giant spider gang attacks you versus how the homicidal and toothy mushrooms attack you, versus how the zombies attack you versus how the Demigoth bandit gangs attack you, etc. One of the subtle joys of this game is the nuances of the tactical combat.

A couple of niggles with Mike's re-review:

- I do believe that the CE does NOT let you advance a class regardless of requirements met. I think that's just a "feature" of the non-CE version.

- While Mike is correct that the game is combat-heavy and if you don't like the way it handles combat early on, you won't like the game, I disagree that it's all the same. IMO, the game is good at presenting you with changing tactical combat challenges as things progress. The monster design, environments and skill choices are a great combination for tactical combat variety. I won't claim that every encounter is unique, but there is plenty of ways to skin the cat. It's not all the same.

- Using a skill will also decrease the cost for the next level. It's not just Intelligence based. So the dumb brute that constantly beats things on the head as a way to solve problems will find it easier to advance the "beating things on the head" skill than a mage that does little or none of the same. Granted, Intelligence has a greater effect and Mike's point on this is well taken, it still doesn't paint the whole picture accurately. Btw, race also impacts some skill and attribute advancement costs.

- Mike makes it sound like if you get a powerful enough comp, the stutter problem goes away. Sadly, this is not true. The game will always stutter at what seems to be the new zone loading point.

- While the spawning in dungeons is annoying, as Mike rightfully points out, if you crank the rate down to it's lowest level, it's not so bad out in the wilds where you expect an encounter every now and then.

- Mike neglects to mention Bash as an alternative to spending skill points to open locks and chests. Again, if you're playing the brute strength type, you can just smash the sh*t open.

- If you like aRPGs and you can get the Collector's Editions at a bargain price, you'd be foolish not to do so.

- I strongly disagree that a successful franchise can not be built on the foundation of DL. Of course we're not talking the code base, but the ideas. There are several solid ones here (deep tactical combat, advance points, class system, monster design, art design, dungeon design, free multi-player dungeon romping...) that are begging to be advanced in the context of higher quality controls and more than a shoestring team and budget.

[zakhal]

I don't think it's WinXP by itself, but rather a combination of XP and newer video cards and drivers. It also doesn't seem to like any Direct X later than DX 8.

The only old games I havent managed to make work (all old total war games) faulted because of newer graphics card and drivers (I changed from ATi 800xl to 8800GTS 640).

W&W is propably in the same boat as these games:

I have the perfect fix i have taken out my 8800gts and put in an ati 9800xt and COSSACKS - ROME TOTAL WAR - SHOGUN TOTAL WAR AND MEDIEVAL TOTAL WAR all run perfectly, after six month of waiting nvidia still couldnt fix this they say the problem is with the games well ati do not seem to have any trouble i am one happy cossack no thanks to nvidia.

Buy another (old) card or wait for new nvidia drivers (if they ever even intend to fix this).

This is apparently suppose to work for total war:
Try the 174.20 drivers (get them from Guru3d), and update DirectX (geez, I'm posting this a lot, lately). Just make sure to set the driver for Medieval to Single GPU, or you may be unable to force V-Sync, and will crash. The game will work great. . . .

EDIT: The new nvidia drivers (NVIDIA GeForce 175.16) released today are suppose to fix bugs with games.

[txa1265]

Hi chamr! I'm glad you stopped to read and comment. I obviously couldn't present a fully comprehensive report on everything so I had to generalize. Heck, even with my 6/10 review scores I have been called an 'apologist' more than a couple of times ... ;)

- While Mike is correct that the game is combat-heavy and if you don't like the way it handles combat early on, you won't like the game, I disagree that it's all the same. IMO, the game is good at presenting you with changing tactical combat challenges as things progress.
That is true to an extent - there are a few behaviors: ranged, dancing and suicidal. OK, that is too harsh, but those generally define the classes: mages and archers behave the same, keeping clear and lobbing crap at you in the hopes that the next mob-spawn will occur before you kill them. The bulk of 'monster types' just mob you as you cut them down. And decent melee fighters will do some AI work to stay alive longer. The problem is the spawning - and I know you suggest turning down the spawn rate, but I just see that entire mechanic as a glaring weakness in the design.

- Mike makes it sound like if you get a powerful enough comp, the stutter problem goes away. Sadly, this is not true. The game will always stutter at what seems to be the new zone loading point.
I say that in deference to those who have said that it goes away. Even on my brand new laptops (top of line MacBook Pro and Dell XPS 1730) I get some minor lag even when monsters spawn, and definitely when it 'zone loads'.

- Mike neglects to mention Bash as an alternative to spending skill points to open locks and chests. Again, if you're playing the brute strength type, you can just smash the sh*t open.
Yeah, but that takes time as well - and by the time you're a mega-brute the chest should just open right up for you. As for mages ... still out of luck because there is no 'knock' spell. My problem is that I cannot ignore any loot pile (picture me in NWN!) ...

- I strongly disagree that a successful franchise can not be built on the foundation of DL. Of course we're not talking the code base, but the ideas.
There is some core of interesting stuff, but the amount of rework seems terribly large. And if the existing game sold 1 million, where is the incentive to toss the hackneyed story and monster spawn model and empty world and do better? As was said, there is no confirmation of who is even involved - but I'm pretty sure Heuristic Park tanked in '06.

[Dhruin]

Au contraire. The classes you choose make a big difference in how your character plays and what they can achieve. Don't underestimate the value of the learning bonuses and new skill access. You can build very different characters around what the classes give you access to and what they make easier to learn.

You're not quite responding to the exact point but I wouldn't want to underestimate anything.

Say...I want to build a specialist heavy fighter. Please pick a build and tell me the new skills I have access to as I add each class to demonstrate this depth.

[skavenhorde]

I have talked to others who have tried to run it on WinXP+ SP2 and I haven't found a single person yet who got it to work properly.

Hey, what am I an orc? I'm a person.:biggrin: Remember I tried to help you get it running in the wizardry 4 thread. There are people that did get that one going on XP SP2 but it took a hack, a grahics patch and some kind of decompiler thingie. I'm sorry to hear that you could never get it running. Oh well, maybe when you buy a new computer the hardware will be kinder to older games :)

Anyways, as for Dungeon Lords I'm just glad I wasn't the only one that bought that game twice and I totally agree with TX's assement of the game. I only passed it once but it was fun, just not a game with a deep plot. Also DW never did fix some of the alchemy spells even in the CE edition.

[chamr]

You're not quite responding to the exact point
Huh? You said, "and there's no depth in any of the classes." That's a pretty broad condemnation, to which I responded that there was depth. How is that "not quite responding to the exact point"? :S

Say...I want to build a specialist heavy fighter. Please pick a build and tell me the new skills I have access to as I add each class to demonstrate this depth.

OK. While I smell a setup here, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

1st Tier
Fighter - gives you important learning bonuses to all armor, shield and weapon skills.

Adept - gives you additional learning bonuses to Lt Armor and Med Armor to get you started, and gives you access to Magic Weaponry so you can light all the fireworks that come with a good magic weapon. Also gives learning bonuses to Celestial magic for some handy healing spells.

2nd Tier
Celestial - gives learning bonus to magic weaponry so you can make use of the highest level magic weapons. Mainly pick this class, though, to get to the 3rd Tier class that requires it.

Valkyrie - gives access to Heavy Armor, Heavy Weapons, and Heavy Pole arms, while adding even more learning bonuses to all weapons, pole arms, armor and shield, making the highest requirements in any of these areas attainable without having to kill 100 dragons to amass enough advance points.

3rd Tier
Stargazer - more learning bonuses to Magic Weaponry while giving you access to the all important Iron Will skill. Also throws in the nice little +15% Celestial magic bonus to boost your healing spells and a +4 parry to help your defense through the 3rd Tier class heraldry, The Watcher.

So now you've built a heavy fighter specializing in heavy magic pole arms while wearing heavy armor and having boosted healing to account for the fact that you will get hit more often due to the slow attack speed of pole arms but also making you immune to interruption while executing the all important combo strikes that, with a high level magic pole arm, lay the serious smack down on opponents. You've removed excessive advance point expenditure barriers from being able to use the best heavy armor and heavy pole arms of the highest magic weapon level by emphasizing and synergizing the right learning bonuses throughout your class selection.

A few changes and you can have a dual-weapons heavy fighter. Or a classic tank. Or a pole arm specialist that depends on speed rather than Iron Will. Or...

[JDR13]

Hey, what am I an orc? I'm a person.:biggrin: Remember I tried to help you get it running in the wizardry 4 thread. There are people that did get that one going on XP SP2 but it took a hack, a grahics patch and some kind of decompiler thingie. I'm sorry to hear that you could never get it running. Oh well, maybe when you buy a new computer the hardware will be kinder to older games :)


I've tried all of those things without success, what video card were you using at the time?

I would bow down in awe to any person who could get W&W to run on my system. :worship:

[Zaleukos]

Say...I want to build a specialist heavy fighter. Please pick a build and tell me the new skills I have access to as I add each class to demonstrate this depth.

I built a similar heavy fighter by going fighter/adept to paladin (dont remember the exact name of the classes involved). Worked pretty well, but my gfs caster was way more effective towards the end of the game and ended up with 15% more XP thanks to the nasty area spells.

I'd probably get a Dungeon Lords 2 with somewhat improved MP mechanics (being able to heal other party members early in the game would have been nice). The game was fun as an action game but pretty crap as a RPG. As you say the class combinations dont make much sense at all, but they do give nice flexibility in building the char compared to many straight class based systems.

[Dhruin]

Chamr...working this weekend...tired and a bit cranky. I'll try to provide a genuine response without a set up when I can, although the obvious short answer is that we see it differently and won't agree.

[Caduceus]

Best looking goblins in any game of this genre and some great dungeon crawling. If some of the more glaring tech issues had been resolved and the "missing" content added, I would have enjoyed this game more.

The spawning was outrageous. At normal levels it was difficult to to cover long distances without multiple confrontations, and turned down, they would become almost non-existent. No real middle ground. I can't count how many pre-patch times (no map) I had to fight off packs of wolves just to find myself suddenly going the wrong way and having to run all the way back again.

Good concept and visuals, great combat, but over-all more frustrating than fun.