Tibet and the Western World's hypocrisy

[Pladio]

Hope my spelling is correct.

I was just wondering about people's thoughts on the subject.
Tibet has been an issue for decades and only now that the Olympics are on their way do thousands of people say anything about it.
China has been occupying Tibet for decades, yet the world has been silent. It seems the Western countries' are only looking to make China look bad and win the popular support by voicing its hypocritical opinion... Not only countries, but also people. The people remained silent and only now do they do and/or say anything about this topic.

Any thoughts ?

[Corwin]

Where's Tibet??!! Sorry if I sound insensitive, but that's really the issue. It's a small relatively insignificant place (in world terms) and most of us never even think about it until it's brought to our immediate attention. Now, if it had rich reserves of Oil, things would be quite different!!

[KazikluBey]

That's because there's not much point to protest a regime you have no leverage on. Now there is a leverage, so it gets used.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

EVERYBODY wants to invest in the big, big, huge, overgrowing market of China.

That's why everybody keeps so still.

They all want to play nice because they want (and need) new markets.

Economy over human rights !

[Corwin]

Has it ever really been any different? It's called secular humanism, progress, whatever, but at its core is usually selfishness in one form or another!!

[Lucky Day]

Kazik hits the nail on the unfortunately.

The problem is there's little that could be done about it except managing to smuggle the Dali Lhama out and giving India and Pakistan the Nuclear Bomb to prevent China's further expansionist aims.

Maintaining the balance of power in the region was critical during the Cold War and the only thing the Soviets and the US could agree on. The Korean War proved that China was a force to be reckoned wit as Eisenhower wasn't willing to risk a nuclear war no matter how limited.

And later, no one could have foresaw a Communist country like China becoming the economic powerhouse with that kind of regime but it was Napoleon who called it the Sleeping Dragon. There was a myth that Western governments half believed that economic growth would spur the eventual change to Democracy.

Currently, as long as the ultra-competitive West is unable to embargo China as the US managed to do unilaterally to Cuba I'm afraid there's nothing that can be done about it, just as there's nothing that can be done about the Russian's occupation of Chechnya.

[curiously undead]

corwin that is not secular humanism!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism

oh and maybe the timing of this thread is probably not the best
considering you know, the tens of thousands of chinese who have died over the past week and are still currently.

actually there's really not to many 'people' getting upset about china and tibet who haven't already known and complained about it for quite a while and known about 'free tibet' through bumper stickers and concerts. this latest surge is the medias usual self-fufilling yada, and i guarantee the majority of conversations people are having about it now will be gone after the olymics are over, or maybe even once they start. the movement may gain a bit of momentum but as usual the fairweather flags will find another ship to fly on.

oh and if want a better topic of the day/month etc. might i suggest we focus on palistines plight, who don't even have a well loved #1bookseller to help spread the message of freedom.

[Pladio]

I don't mind, but please create another thread for it. I'll enjoy discussing the issue with you and others. (BTw, the Palestinian plight is always on tv, I had almost not seen anything about Tibet until the last months... but if you want to talk about it please create a thread.)

But what about all these people trying to stop the Olympics torch ? All going crazy for Tibet's freedom all around the world?

[blatantninja]

Some of the major reasons have been hit: Obscurity of Tibet and the economic attractiveness of China.

This is nothing new, and you can find far more extreme examples of the West saying one thing and doing (or not doing) another, like Israel and pretty much any country in Africa.

It really goes like this:

The West WANTS the world to be ruled democratically and justly, however our own self-preservation and self-interests have always and will always take precedence over that desire.

It's cruel, it's harsh, but honestly, as an American, I am fine with that order of priority.

[V7]

The problem is there's little that could be done about it except managing to smuggle the Dali Lhama out and giving India and Pakistan the Nuclear Bomb to prevent China's further expansionist aims.


Except of course the Dali Lhama smuggled himself out, India and Pakistan made their own bombs and China isn't expansionist.

[curiously undead]

yes blatantninja there is some truth in that but that attitude comes full circle
and is exactly while america might someday soon become the worlds largest portopotty, unless of course people realize that true patiotism, especially in the case of democracy, can never come 2nd to humanism, unless of course the democracy strived for is simply for alterier motives, and as empty as a bumper sticker.

[blatantninja]

yes blatantninja there is some truth in that but that attitude comes full circle
and is exactly while america might someday soon become the worlds largest portopotty, unless of course people realize that true patiotism, especially in the case of democracy, can never come 2nd to humanism, unless of course the democracy strived for is simply for alterier motives, and as empty as a bumper sticker.

We've had that attitude for our entire 232 years as an independent nation, so if we do become the world's largest portopotty, that won't be the reason. The earliest example is probably our refusal to support the French in their revolution, despite them fundamentally rebelling for similar reasons. That said, I am all for developing the technology that allows us to be more independent (mainly energy related, but also other natural resource and manufacturing) or competitive in the world landscape, and hence give us more flexibility in how we deal with nations that don't share our ideals of liberty and freedom.

However, I'm not willing to sacrifice (outside of general reason) what we currently have to do it. And if the roles were reversed, I wouldn't expect anyone else to do anything different either.

And while I agree partially with FDR's quote, for all the good he did, he was an unrepentant socialist who left us the legacy of a fundamentally unsound social security and pension system that created a sense of entitlement never seen before in our country, and is currently causing large problems in our economy.

[skavenhorde]

China isn't expansionist.

Tell that to the Taiwanese and you'll probably be laughed at or yelled at.

[curiously undead]

we could debate forever on how that has or hasn't been the us policy for that entire time or continuously. though it doesn't change the attitude that you get what you give, and that a handful of great people have greatly helped the country and a handful have done great damage.
i'm not sure exactly our role in the french revolution, which wasn't at all like our own, but a class one, probably more akin to our civil war. but i do know that without the french we would still be red coats ourselves.

indepence is nice, but our resources are dwindling not growing, water being the main lifeblood that has been perilous for some regions of the country.
and whether the world like it or not a new system will have to be developed, since as we keep on relinquishing powers/duties to the private sector, we 'shockingly' see higher and higher prices, harder times etc. competive companies are not going to solves this problem, since a profit based system is always a narrow focused endeavor and leaches resources from one aspect to fill the other.

only when the us and other world economies figure someway to leave the resources of the world in the peoples hands and the products and services to the private sector can the new economic web be woven. inflation can't go on forever, unless of course people don't mind being pushed into a further fear based society where gaps between poor and rich grow deeper, and those 'enslaved' in the bottom begin pooring out of the jails, and low income neighborhoods, where people will be hiring blackwater to protect their kids on their way to school.

the majority don't want to envision such a tale, republican or democrat, but a large section of them most the 'baby boomers' (sorry have to pick on someone) have lived a decent life, payed their taxes, worked hard, and really are looking forward to a lush retirement, and aren't to be bothered with the future of americans let alone the world.

[V7]

Tell that to the Taiwanese and you'll probably be laughed at or yelled at.

Those would be the Taiwanese in the Republic of China right?

[skavenhorde]

Those would be the Taiwanese in the Republic of China right?

LMAO, ROC in name only in addition it is NOT the People's Republic of China. One is Communist the other isn't. There is a big difference.

So once again try telling that Communist China isn't expansionist to anyone from "Taiwan."

[V7]

LMAO, ROC in name only in addition it is NOT the People's Republic of China. One is Communist the other isn't. There is a big difference.

So once again try telling that Communist China isn't expansionist to anyone from "Taiwan."

You seem to have missed my point, even if the ROC claimed to be a separate state, which it doesn't, the rest of the world accepts the one China principle.

[Lucky Day]

Except of course the Dali Lhama smuggled himself out, India and Pakistan made their own bombs and China isn't expansionist.

Sure..and Israel and South Africa made their own too.

These countries have had nukes for over 30 years and its been an open secret. You don't just make nukes in your backyard secretly, and definitely not back then. There's a lot of press that doesn't get put out until its official over things like this. Why else did Pakistan suddenly have one immediately after India tested their's? If you don't believe me why are we just hearing now about Israel's bombing of the facilities in Syria? That's the beauty of having an ally like Israel. The US would never have been able to get away with that.

China is not expansionist? This is the country that occupied Tibet right? And had several wars with India? And had been causing so many problems at their border with Russia they sought ping pong diplomacy with the US? Just checking.

[Prime Junta]

China is not expansionist? This is the country that occupied Tibet right? And had several wars with India? And had been causing so many problems at their border with Russia they sought ping pong diplomacy with the US? Just checking.

No, China isn't expansionist. Not in the usual sense of the word anyway.

In a very small nutshell, here's how they see it.

China is the Center Kingdom that has been around for, what, 5000 years. During this time, it has had lots and lots of dynasties ruling it. Dynasties follow a repeating life cycle. When they decline, Chinese border provinces split off and sometimes the entire country falls into disarray. When a new one ascends, it consolidates its power and reclaims the border provinces.

In this narrative, Tibet, Taiwan, the South Tibetan areas it captured during the Sino-Indian war, and the Ussur river region are simply border provinces that broke off during the previous period of dynastic decline. The current dynasty (the Communist one) is on the ascendant; therefore its duty is to restore the natural, historical borders of China. China hasn't had territorial ambitions that go beyond that since the Tang dynasty at least.

In other words, China's "expansionism" applies to (a) Tibet, which it already possesses, (b) Taiwan, which is de jure already China, with the character of the legitimate government in dispute (Guomindang or Communist?), and (c) just possibly the Ussur river region, which is a Russian-Chinese issue. I'm rather touched that you're so concerned about the territorial integrity of Russia, but I have a feeling they're quite capable of dealing with that situation on their own.

Therefore, it's inaccurate to call it expansionist, and downright ridiculous to posit that it has any further territorial ambitions on India. (If it did, it could easily have extended its conquest during the war -- they gave the Indian army such a stomping they could've marched all the way to Delhi without meeting serious resistance.)

[V7]

Worth noting also that the PRC hasn't attempted to reunify Taiwan by force dispite a good legal claim to the territory and recognises Mongolia dispite historic claims there.

[V7]

As far as nukes go Israel had French assistance, South Africa was believed to have had Israeli assistance. India is thought to be indigenous and China helped Pakistan's development, none of which supports your suggestion that India and Pakistan were given nuclear weapons to contain China.

[skavenhorde]

You seem to have missed my point, even if the ROC claimed to be a separate state, which it doesn't, the rest of the world accepts the one China principle.

Let's not start the whole "Taiwan's not a country" debate. Overall, we are both right and both wrong. Prior to 1970 the "Nationalist China" aka ROC was a country. They had lost the cival war with the Peoples Liberation Army "Communist China" and withdrew to Taiwan where they changed the capital to Taiwan. In 1970 they withdrew from the UN (to quote a friend of mine "The dumbest thing Taiwan has ever done.") In 1971 the "Communist China" entered the UN and soon after most of the diplomatic ties that the ROC had with other countries were severed. So now that they aren't in the UN does Taiwan and the ROC just disappear? or like the Taiwanese say they become a "world orphan."

Here is more info for you on the topic.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/profiles/Taiwan.pdf
http://geography.about.com/od/politicalgeography/a/taiwancountry.htm
Taiwan's military - http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/taiwan/index.html
2001 "Mayor" Giuliani forgets that Taiwan isn't a country - http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C04E0D7123DF930A15756C0A9679C8B 63
Great info on the history of Taiwan - http://www.leksu.com/

So we are both right and both wrong. As for being an expansionist, I might be a little prejudice since I live here and have loved ones here but having missiles aimed at you and sometimes fired near the country you live in, gives this overall feeling of dread. I will never believe for a second that China wouldn't expand it's borders in a second if it thought it could win. But there is a problem India has nukes. Taiwan has Japan and the USA. Russia, well Russia is Russia like PJ said I think Russia can take care of themselves. This would put a damper on the whole "Happy Happy Joy Joy" image that China is trying to create now.

Coincedently, the new President, MA Ying-Jeou was sworn in today and in his first speech he both said he pledged to acquire more weaponry and open up direct flights to China. I found that funny since those two ideas seem to be at odds with each other.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=aUghzIO3cqLA&refer=asia

Worth noting also that the PRC hasn't attempted to reunify Taiwan by force dispite a good legal claim to the territory and recognises Mongolia dispite historic claims there.

Don't have any idea about Mongolia but as for Taiwan there has been a security blanket from the USA. Any attack on Taiwan and the USA would come to its aid. I don't know if the US could actually come to Taiwan's aid now due to the war but I don't think China is willing to take that chance just yet.

[blatantninja]

but i do know that without the french we would still be red coats ourselves.

There's no debating that!

indepence is nice, but our resources are dwindling not growing, water being the main lifeblood that has been perilous for some regions of the country.
and whether the world like it or not a new system will have to be developed, since as we keep on relinquishing powers/duties to the private sector, we 'shockingly' see higher and higher prices, harder times etc.

Natural resources, by their nature, are always dwindling. The biggest concern is brain drain, but that has been significantly over exaggerated. It's also a complete fabrication that twe are relinquishing power to the private sector in any meaningful way. Our government is larger and more intrusive than it has ever been in the past. The higher prices we have seen are mainly in commodities that were historically under priced anyway (like oil and food) compared to the rest of the world. As for harder times, it's not even as bad today as it was in the early 90's, and it's not even close to as bad as most of the recessions/depressions in our history.


competive companies are not going to solves this problem, since a profit based system is always a narrow focused endeavor and leaches resources from one aspect to fill the other.

We've seen historically that while government regulation to some extent is desirable, the most efficient way to grow the wealth of the nation is via the profit based system. There simply isn't a better system in the world, though it is far from perfect.


only when the us and other world economies figure someway to leave the resources of the world in the peoples hands and the products and services to the private sector can the new economic web be woven.

Which I hope never happens, because inevitably when something is 'in the people's hands' it is in the governments hands, and governments are far more prone to corruption and waste than the private sector.

inflation can't go on forever, unless of course people don't mind being pushed into a further fear based society where gaps between poor and rich grow deeper, and those 'enslaved' in the bottom begin pooring out of the jails, and low income neighborhoods, where people will be hiring blackwater to protect their kids on their way to school.

Wow. That's some real communist propaganda there. The gaps between the poor and rich in this country have been smaller in the past 50 years than in any other time period. And regardless, the gap is completely unimportant, what is important is the median standard of living, which has improved consistently in our country.

the majority don't want to envision such a tale, republican or democrat, but a large section of them most the 'baby boomers' (sorry have to pick on someone) have lived a decent life, payed their taxes, worked hard, and really are looking forward to a lush retirement, and aren't to be bothered with the future of americans let alone the world.

I can agree that we certainly have a bad problem with not considering the future. Social security and medicare are the best examples of that!

[blatantninja]

Worth noting also that the PRC hasn't attempted to reunify Taiwan by force dispite a good legal claim to the territory and recognises Mongolia dispite historic claims there.

How does the PRC have a good legal claim? The government of Taiwan was the democratically elected government of all of China, until Mao and his gang decided to stage a revolution.

[Prime Junta]

How does the PRC have a good legal claim? The government of Taiwan was the democratically elected government of all of China, until Mao and his gang decided to stage a revolution.

Um... Chiang Kai-shek didn't get into power through democratic elections. Nor did his predecessor, Sun Yat-sen. They were revolutionaries and warlords in their own right; only their ideology was different (rightist nationalist as opposed to leftist Communist). Taiwan has evolved towards a democracy since Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek kicked the bucket in 1975, but that's a different story.

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Kai-shek ]
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Yat-sen ]

As to China's legal claim, to my (limited) understanding it's based on two things: (1) the Beijing government is internationally recognized as the legitimate government of China, and (2) the territorial division of China into PRC and RoC is not internationally recognized. Therefore, Taiwan is legally a part of China. I'm sure V7 can set me straight if I'm mistaken here.

PS. Incidentally, I don't believe that something is necessarily right just because it's legal.

[V7]

Pretty much correct. No one currently disputes Taiwan is part of China, the ROC has spent the last sixty years claiming to be the government of all of China (including I believe the Mongolia the PRC recognises as independent although I may be out of date on that one). The issue between the PRC and the ROC is over the legitimate government of all of China not whether Taiwan is part of it or not. Since the ROC democratised there's been increasing muttering about changing this and declaring independence but thus far all they've done is toned down their claims to the rest of China. Now if the ROC decided to formally declare Taiwan an independent sovereign state they could make a reasonable argument based on self determination and de facto independence, that wouldn't invalidate the PRC's claims and it would come down to whether the rest of the world was willing to back Taiwan and probably a shooting war. (Would the US take part? Interesting question.)

With respect to your friend Skaven the ROC would probably have lost China's seat at the UN anyway much as the Taliban was edging out the Northern Alliance from Afghanistan's representative positions prior to the war.

Finally the 'is Taiwan a country?' debate is a non-starter as Taiwan doesn’t claim to be. It has many of the characteristics of an independent state and I personally believe deserves to be one (if only because I think its democracy is a good example to a lot of the other countries in the region and you have to admire a people who cam manage that with the PRC staring at them over the straits) but unless and until Taiwan declares independence the question is moot.

[V7]

How does the PRC have a good legal claim? The government of Taiwan was the democratically elected government of all of China, until Mao and his gang decided to stage a revolution.

Democracy is nice, but it doesn't have much to do with sovereignty.

[skavenhorde]

As to China's legal claim, to my (limited) understanding it's based on two things: (1) the Beijing government is internationally recognized as the legitimate government of China, and (2) the territorial division of China into PRC and RoC is not internationally recognized. Therefore, Taiwan is legally a part of China. I'm sure V7 can set me straight if I'm mistaken here.

The legal status is still in question. Japan never said in the Peace Treaty of Taipei who Taiwan belonged to. Interpret that anyway you want because it has been done to death. ROC says it belongs to them since the ROC was in control of Taiwan at the time of the treaty or in more technical terms "uti possidetis." Of course our previous president was of a different opinion and openly sparked tension between China and Taiwan by trying to get a formal declaration of independence.
http://old.npf.org.tw/PUBLICATION/NS/093/NS-C-093-187.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan

PRC says it belongs to them due to pretty much the same argument that they have with Tibet, that it's always been apart of China. However PRC hasn't always been a part of China and has never been in control of Taiwan.

This next claim is right out of left field. I didn't even know about this one. Taipei Times reported back in 2006 that the US never transferred sovereignty over to Taiwan, so Taiwan is USA territory. Now I wouldn't mind that at all, I won't have to wait in the NON-Citizen line at the airport when coming back to Taiwan next time :)
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2006/12/31/2003342809

After all is said and done, it's a complicated matter anyway you look at it.

[Prime Junta]

Yes, it is -- which also means that it's far more complex than simply painting the PRC as yet another expansionist Yellow Peril intent on gobbling up its peaceful neighbors. Including India, it appears.

[blatantninja]

When did the US have control of Taiwan?

[skavenhorde]

With respect to your friend Skaven the ROC would probably have lost China's seat at the UN anyway much as the Taliban was edging out the Northern Alliance from Afghanistan's representative positions prior to the war.

Uggg, thanks for comparing Taiwan's status with the Taliban's status;p. Your probably right in any case because China was becoming more of a power and with Nixon's upcoming visits to China, it was only a matter of time before the UN bowed to the PROC. Still doesn't negate the fact that before they were a country and after *poof* they disappeared off the face of the Earth. In my previous post I mentioned the Treaty of Taipei and as I said in that Japan never said who gets Taiwan and since Taiwan was apart of the ROC then the ROC has control.


Finally the 'is Taiwan a country?' debate is a non-starter as Taiwan doesn’t claim to be. It has many of the characteristics of an independent state and I personally believe deserves to be one (if only because I think its democracy is a good example to a lot of the other countries in the region and you have to admire a people who cam manage that with the PRC staring at them over the straits) but unless and until Taiwan declares independence the question is moot.

Uh-huh and if they formally declare independence then they force the USA's hand and then we have WAR for EVERYONE. So which is wiser having a name that doesn't mean anything or war? Right now their status IS the status quo, which is this murky area in which we find ourselves now.

Let's look at it from a different point a view, a more common sense point of view. Does Taiwan have a military, police force, laws, legal representatives, taxes, borders and heck they even have their own stock exchange. So tell me how is that not a country? Because PRC says so? or because the UN and other countries can't make China upset?

Here is a list of the countries that do recognize Taiwan as a country.

Republic of Nauru
Saint Christopher and Nevis
Burkina Faso
Republic of El Salvador
Belize
Palau
The Marshall Islands
Republic of Gambia
Republic of Honduras
Solomon Islands
Republic of Paraguay
Democratic Republic of Sao Tome and Principe
Republic of Panama
Dominican Republic
Kingdom of Swaziland
Republic of Guatemala
Republic of Haiti
Republic of Nicaragua
Apostolic Nunciature
The Vatican

Most are third world countries (Vatican excluded) and most (Vatican excluded) only recognize Taiwan because they send them a lot of aid and I do mean A LOT. The point being here is that there are countries that do recognize Taiwan and by flat out saying that Taiwan is not a country is just plain false. It's a nice grey "safe" area.

As a funny side note, whenever I have to choose what country I'm in when installing a program or signing up online, they always have the country Taiwan. The software devs must recognize Taiwan as a country ;)

Yes, it is -- which also means that it's far more complex than simply painting the PRC as yet another expansionist Yellow Peril intent on gobbling up its peaceful neighbors. Including India, it appears.

I'll remember that the next time China wants to do some saber rattling with military exercises. All of these military exercises, espcially since the previous Taiwanese president has been in office, has put me on edge with anything to do with China and it's global goals.

When did the US have control of Taiwan?

At the end of WWII. When Japan surrendered to the US. Taiwan was a part of Japan then. I'm guessing here because I never knew this fun fact until today. I thought I heard every theory out there but that one is new to me.

[V7]

Uggg, thanks for comparing Taiwan's status with the Taliban's status;p.
Actually I compared the ROC to the Northern Alliance and the PRC to the Taliban.

Still doesn't negate the fact that before they were a country and after *poof* they disappeared off the face of the Earth. In my previous post I mentioned the Treaty of Taipei and as I said in that Japan never said who gets Taiwan and since Taiwan was apart of the ROC then the ROC has control.

And you're still missing the point, I could write you a 30 page analysis but really it comes down to:

ROC: 'We're the government of China'
PRC: 'Are not, we are.'
('Nuh uh!'
'Uh huh!')
Rest of the world: 'PRC is the government of China'

Everyone, including Taiwan, agrees Taiwan is part of China. The ROC wasn't a country before, it was a government, and it didn't *poof* off the face of the earth it was replaced by the PRC, while, unusually in this sort of situation, managing to hang on to some isolated territory.

Uh-huh and if they formally declare independence then they force the USA's hand and then we have WAR for EVERYONE. So which is wiser having a name that doesn't mean anything or war? Right now their status IS the status quo, which is this murky area in which we find ourselves now.

Let's look at it from a different point a view, a more common sense point of view. Does Taiwan have a military, police force, laws, legal representatives, taxes, borders and heck they even have their own stock exchange. So tell me how is that not a country? Because PRC says so? or because the UN and other countries can't make China upset?

Seriously, if you can't assert you're an independent state you're not, that’s a fundamental, no ifs or buts, you need to claim you're independent and the rest of the world needs to recognise your claim if you want to be a state. IF you can't even say you're independent then you're not sovereign.


Here is a list of the countries that do recognize Taiwan as a country.

Republic of Nauru
Saint Christopher and Nevis
Burkina Faso
Republic of El Salvador
Belize
Palau
The Marshall Islands
Republic of Gambia
Republic of Honduras
Solomon Islands
Republic of Paraguay
Democratic Republic of Sao Tome and Principe
Republic of Panama
Dominican Republic
Kingdom of Swaziland
Republic of Guatemala
Republic of Haiti
Republic of Nicaragua
Apostolic Nunciature
The Vatican

Most are third world countries (Vatican excluded) and most (Vatican excluded) only recognize Taiwan because they send them a lot of aid and I do mean A LOT. The point being here is that there are countries that do recognize Taiwan and by flat out saying that Taiwan is not a country is just plain false. It's a nice grey "safe" area.

It’s a nice list, the important point is that they don't recognise Taiwan as a country, they recognise China as a country and the ROC as the government of China (currently, unfortunately stuck on a small island on the edge of China but the legitimate government of China). Its a farce, everyone knows its about Taiwanese aid and investment (or in the case of the Vatican historical ties and the relative treatment of religious minorities by the ROC and PRC) and even if Taiwan claimed to be a separate state those countries wouldn't be sufficient to establish international recognition.

[skavenhorde]

And you're still missing the point, I could write you a 30 page analysis but really it comes down to:.

And you could add that 30 page analysis to the others already around. Bottom line we are like China and Taiwan. I say it is a country, you say it isn't. I'm sure China appreciates your support but seriously this is getting old. I've provided links to back up the reason I think this way. Talked about the treaties and how they are interpreted in different ways and now we are down to the international recognition.

If you don't believe me or think I'm missing the point then read some of the links I have added below.

The Taiwan Relations Act -
http://usinfo.state.gov/eap/Archive_Index/Taiwan_Relations_Act.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Relations_Act
This act allows America to treat Taiwan as a country. I don't officially have an embassy here but AIT the American Institute in Taiwan is by default my embassy.

About.com's conclusion of the whole "Is Taiwan a country?" question. Once again, it's yes and no.
http://geography.about.com/od/politicalgeography/a/taiwancountry.htm

A report by the RAND Corporation on what would happen with China-Us relations after the resolution of Taiwan's status. As of right now the status is not resolved one way or the other. I found this an interesting read. It goes into what may happen if Taiwan's status was resolved peacefully or through force. Key point, the issue is unresolved one way or the other.
http://rand.org/pubs/monographs/2007/RAND_MG567.pdf

CIA's Report on the country Taiwan :) Just had to include this since the CIA seems to assume Taiwan is a country.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/tw.html


Everyone, including Taiwan, agrees Taiwan is part of China. The ROC wasn't a country before, it was a government, and it didn't *poof* off the face of the earth it was replaced by the PRC, while, unusually in this sort of situation, managing to hang on to some isolated territory.

Seriously, if you can't assert you're an independent state you're not, that’s a fundamental, no ifs or buts, you need to claim you're independent and the rest of the world needs to recognise your claim if you want to be a state. IF you can't even say you're independent then you're not sovereign.

If you have never been in control of that country, then you don't own that country. Bottom line ROC aka Taiwan is in control of Taiwan, PROC never in control of Taiwan. They have never had any government here, never had any power here.

It’s a nice list, the important point is that they don't recognise Taiwan as a country, they recognise China as a country and the ROC as the government of China (currently, unfortunately stuck on a small island on the edge of China but the legitimate government of China). Its a farce, everyone knows its about Taiwanese aid and investment (or in the case of the Vatican historical ties and the relative treatment of religious minorities by the ROC and PRC) and even if Taiwan claimed to be a separate state those countries wouldn't be sufficient to establish international recognition:.

Important point being here is that they are recognized and it wasn't so much a farce in the past. Up until recently the main objective of the ROC was to retake China. The PLA never managed to completely wipe out the ROC. The ROC lost the cival war, retreated to Taiwan and have remained in power over the lands that they control, in this case Taiwan. With the ROC in control of Taiwan and PROC in control of the rest of China. Once again key point being that the ROC is in control of Taiwan.

The only problem with the ROC is that no one recognizes them except a very few. Why? because of China. We don't want to upset the sleeping dragon. But the fact remains that Taiwan is independant from China. If not in name but in actions. The PROC has no control over Taiwan. Never has.

Conclusion: The issue of Taiwan is unresolved. It isn't officially recognized in many countries but it is treated as a seperate entity from China. So we are back to the murky area we find ourselves, where we are both right and both wrong.

[Prime Junta]

The only problem with the ROC is that no one recognizes them except a very few. Why? because of China. We don't want to upset the sleeping dragon. But the fact remains that Taiwan is independant from China. If not in name but in actions. The PROC has no control over Taiwan. Never has.

Not to mention that it would be kinda ridiculous to recognize Taiwan but not recognize the PRC. Which, as you've noted, is the current other option, since there's no way to recognize both.