Help building a charater?

[Acleacius]

Hey could use some tips as its been many years since I kept up with the D&D rules.
I tend more towards an all around charater, probably why I like G3 so much. :)

I started a Rogue and not sure I optimised it as much as possible.
Is there any downside to starting as a Fighter and changing to a Rogue at level 2?
My thinking was to get an extra Fighting Perk, plus more Weapon and Armor Skills or do I lose them?

Wouldn't mind playing a Fighter Mage type but I have never been happy with D&D Magic system being so limited, casting what you memorize previously before you ever get to an area, not knowing what spells you will need.
I am much more confortable with Mana based Magic systems.

Everything feels so limiting after playing G3, but I am willing to put some time in. ;)

Thanks. :)

[Prime Junta]

There are two downsides with multi-classing: an XP penalty, and the fact that some classes (especially spellcasters) get their most powerful abilities at high class levels. You can avoid the former by picking a race with a favored class that suits one of your classes. If you're power-gaming, in general it's best to either:

+ Stick to one class
+ Stick to one class + an appropriate prestige class when ready for it (e.g. fighter -> weapon master)
+ Multiclass with one primary class and 1-4 levels of a secondary class.

IMO ranger-rogue works better than fighter-rogue. Rangers are limited with regards to armor, just like rogues, but get almost all the fighter feats *and* really good two-weapon fighting feats at level 1, and they get the tracking feat as well. One level of ranger won't make much of a difference in your progression as a rogue, and the feats you get from it more than make up for the difference.

If you want to play a spellcaster, it sounds like you might like bards, sorcerers, or warlocks better. They have slot-based spellcasting but no memorization; you have a smaller list of spells you can use, but you can use any of them at any time as long as you have slots free. The gameplay works out rather similar to a mana-based system that doesn't have mana potions or regenerating mana; that is, you have to rest to replenish your spells (which is made very easy, even too easy in NWN2).

A fighter/mage is a bit of a problematic combo IMO since (1) armor restricts arcane spellcasting so you can't really use any, and (2) melee casting is pretty easily disrupted. A fighter/cleric works much better (or plain cleric with high STR and CON and a selection of combat-related feats).

Note that if you're playing with the Hardcore rules, you have to be careful when casting area-effect spells as you can fry your companions or even yourself.

[Acleacius]

Very useful info and the Ranger/Rogue sounds much better.
Yes, Bards have always been fun combo of Fighting, Casting and Rogue.

Thanks. :)

[txa1265]

The manual has very good info on multiclassing. Personally I like to single class exclusively so I've never done that. That is one place where I choose strict role-play over the rule-working involved.

[Bhaal]

I've made a rogue, and I took two weapon fighting. I'm considering taking a ranger level, but since they get two weapon fighting for free and my rogue already has, would I be able to pick another (rogue) feat instead?

[Prime Junta]

@Bhaal -- sorry, no.
@txa -- I don't think multiclassing is necessarily opposed to role-playing. You could easily have, say, someone who grew up in the countryside hunting and trapping (read: has a ranger level or three) and then moved to the city and took to relieving people of their extra possessions (became a rogue). I have a hunch there's going to be some role-playing with your party members that could lead to them to multi-class.

[Bhaal]

Shame :( Would it still be worth it? And at which level(s) would it be smart to take a ranger level or more?

[Corwin]

In the original, I played a wild-elf. This allowed me to begin with one level of Barb, before I multied into a Sorc. It made the early level MUCH easier!!

[txa1265]

@txa -- I don't think multiclassing is necessarily opposed to role-playing. .

True - but what I meant is that because I'm a numbers guy by profession that I have to be careful about getting too submerged in the numbers of games.

[bjon045]

Fighter/Mages are quite viable, espically if you make use of the eldritch knight prestige class.

[Prime Junta]

I think anything's viable, if you set your mind to it. :-)

I'm thinking from the powergaming POV, though: the strength of a fighter is in attack bonus, feats of arms, and combat endurance (through AC or hit points); the strength of a spellcaster is in magic. Mixing the two will yield something that doesn't get the most powerful spells and can't survive in melée very well. If you picked a nice selection of touch-based, buff, and caster-centered spells, though, I'm sure it'd be workable -- but definitely more of a challenge.

@Bhaal -- I can't say whether it'd be worth it without knowing more about your character and where you are in the game. (For example, if you've stumbled on an über magic item that has particular class requirements, it might be worth it to take a level of that class just so you can use it.)

Don't sweat about it too much. Play through the game once just "role-playing" it; you can powergame it the second time around if you feel like it. From a stats POV, it doesn't matter when you pick a level or two of your secondary class. Role-playing through a game is more fun anyway. That's why I picked a lawful neutral tiefling monk with the Troublemaker background. (She has a hard time controlling her demon blood, especially when faced with the prejudice her kind encounters, wherefrom the Troublemaker background, and has only managed it, to an extent, with the iron discipline of her monk's training. I try to let this dichotomy be reflected in her role-playing choices, too; as in, she's easy to provoke into a fight but does not do anything chaotic whenever she manages to keep a cool head.)

[Bhaal]

@Prime: I'm almost level 5, and I'm at the graveyard now. Nothing of interest has dropped, so I'm not in a rush to get more rogue levels. I picked up the tiefling rogue, but she dies all the time so I don't know how long I'm gonna keep her. ;)

[Prime Junta]

Equip her with a short bow and keep her as archery support in combat. If you can get her to circle around the flank or the side, she'll get sneak attack bonuses on her archery, which can be deadly.

[Acleacius]

I decided on strait Rogue, when I rolled up a Ranger to start turns out you don't get duel till second or thrid level and as you mentioned a penatly I was worried about 2nd and 3rd being to long, plus it forces you to choose a god and I was trying to play with no deity.
So I choose Human Rogue, got 2 starting Feats Duel and Duel Defense. ;)

[txa1265]

Equip her with a short bow and keep her as archery support in combat. If you can get her to circle around the flank or the side, she'll get sneak attack bonuses on her archery, which can be deadly.

That was going to be my suggestion - I already had two melee, my Paladin and the Dwarven fighter, so it was a natural. Works much better that way as well.

[Bhaal]

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll try that. :)

[Acleacius]

Hey I saw in some thread, can't recall atm, someone was changing the AI behavior?
How is it possible to di this I must be missing something obvious, though I have tried Right and Lrgt clicking NPCs, Protraits, Icons and look at the Key Settings in the Main Menu.

Thanks for any help. :)

May have found it in Behavior, with the setting of Puppet mode.

[xSamhainx]

I always agonize over this aspect of the game far too much. Playing something else while I think about it!

Thx for the help ='.'=

[txa1265]

That's right Acleacius, the AI you can change is the party AI like in BG

[Acleacius]

I just wish it was more intutive, the idea I can't give a simple command, with a Right click menu for Wait or Follow is very annoying.
Its too bad they couldn't (afford?) have full voice acting for all the NPCs. :(

On the upside I am starting to like the game, I have reached the fort and about 1 battle from hitting 5th level.

Anyway to force the camera higher in Driving Mode?
It seems to only mode which will keep the camera behind the player, yet it locks at about 50% height.
Damn they must have worked really hard to Prevent us from actully being able to have the camera work as desired. :rolleyes:

Thanks. :)

[Cormac]

I just wish it was more intutive, the idea I can't give a simple command, with a Right click menu for Wait or Follow is very annoying.

Maybe I'm not understanding you well but you can give commands to your party members through the broadcast command accessed by rightclicking on your character.

[Acleacius]

Really? Thanks I will give it a try, I thought I had tried every possibly. :)

Humm thats not working for me, I am right clicking on everything my charater, portraits and Icons.
Wonder if you have to make some adjustment in the Options to beable to right click on your charater?

[Prime Junta]

You have to right-click and hold for a half-second or so before the menu pops up. Annoying. I haven't been able to figure out how to quickslot the "broadcast" commands either; if someone has please let me know how, since I use them a lot. "Follow," "Hold your position," and "Attack nearest" give quite enough control over the tactical action for most purposes, once you've puppeted your spellcaster(s) so they don't roast the party with fireballs. (Playing with Hardcore rules.)

[Prime Junta]

@Acleacius -- I disagree strongly about the voice acting. Thing is, the more you have of it, the more the actors get bored, and the more difficult it makes to tinker with the scripts as you go along. I'd much rather see lots of inspired writing than lots of uninspired voice acting. (One of the things I really hate about G3 is the flat-as-hell voice acting that you're forced to listen to.)

A little of it does spice up the game nicely, though. NWN2 has perhaps a hair *too* much of it, even: at best it's very well done, but some lines are noticeably wobbly. (Did anyone else have a "What the hell are Carth Onasi and Mission Vao doing here?" moment, btw, or is it just me?)

[Acleacius]

"You have to right-click and hold for a half-second"
Hehe, I found this out by accident.
I was trying everything and then I hand slipped and all of a sudden it opened. :shocked:
So, I spent the next 10 minutes trying to reinact what had happened. ;)

"@Acleacius -- I disagree strongly about the voice acting."
I strongly agree with your disagreement. ;)
The problem of course is that its due to poor acting and/or poor writing.
Certianly well written dialogue can be well acted, we have all seen and felt it in countless moives pr plays.
One of the best acted games ever [imo] is Bloodlines, it can be done.
Its often overlooked and underfunded, you are corret about Gothic 3 as well, especially the comrade NPCs are the worst, which should have been the best.
The reason G1 and G2 were critised [imo] was the fact they used so few vioce actors to do so much, not that the actors were bad.
Why the hell they got all new actors whom really don't know the parts/charaters was complete nonsence.
Its another letdown by the publsihers doing a poor job of a great game, just as the music makes G3 better so to should the voices.
I am willing to bet PB has control over the music but doesn't over the voice, huge mistake.

Prime Junta I know and understand what you mean though many hardcore perfer reading, though I am about growth and fusion of RPGs.

Lol, yeah I see Mission and Carth which I have tried to ignore, though I think they did a great job with the dwarf.

KotOR was very impressive to me in voice acting department, though not all of it was great, some writing and some acting certianly fell short, but I don't think Bioware should trun from this path becase it wasn't perfect.
I realise its a matter of taste not its not a game everyone would like but I enjoyed it. :)
It was an evolution [imo] and NWN is starting to grow on me now, precisly due to a better acting, things started turnning around at the first inn where you meet your dwarf. ;)

Well I started over again and went with 1 level of Fighter, getting a good selection of Feats stated and will finish as a Bard. :)
The other classes are just too restrictive, if I gonna spend 50 hours playing something I need flexablity and varity.

[txa1265]

"You have to right-click and hold for a half-second"
Hehe, I found this out by accident.
I was trying everything and then I hand slipped and all of a sudden it opened. :shocked:
So, I spent the next 10 minutes trying to reinact what had happened. ;)

There is a setting for right-click delay as well. I like it just to pop and while I can't get there I can gt close.

[Acleacius]

Ahh will check that setting, thanks. :)

What are the negitive reasons for Multiclassing?
Is there a limit to the number of classes?

Considering starting as a Fighter 1st, Rogue 2nd and Mage from 3rd to end.

I am thinking of starting over again, as the Bard only seems to get 2 or 3 spells per Arcane level, not only that it seems delayed (1st level spells at 2nd and 2nd level spells at 5th) and no damge spells (no Mage Missle or Fireball) or maybe I just misunderstand what I think I see. ;)

Thanks. :)

[Prime Junta]

@Acleacius -- the negative reason is simply that most classes have the best perks at the higher class levels, and if you multiclass, you'll never make it -- you need more XP to get there simply because you've "wasted" some XP on your secondary class *and* there may be an XP penalty as well.

You zip through the levels fast early on, and slow down a lot later. The difference between level 1 and 3 is minutes, the difference between 15 and 17 is hours. The point is that the difference between 15 and 17 (wizard) is also the difference between level 8 and level 9 spells -- and the level-niners are real humdingers you wouldn't want to miss out on, and having access to them earlier will make a huuuge difference.

Combine a race with a level penalty with multiclassing, and you'll have a seriously underpowered character. A deep gnome or dark elf fighter/rogue/wizard, for example, would be pretty wimpy -- compared to a straight wizard you'd be at a four or five-level disadvantage, which is severe.

Of course, this applies more to some classes than others. In particular, the classes that rely on spell-casting as their primary function take a big hit, as does the monk, while conversely the fighter-ish/rogue-ish classes do rather well. If you want to mix fighting, stealth, and spellcasting, in general it's a better idea to make the fighter or stealther your primary class and spice it up with some wizard/sorcerer/whatever levels, rather than the other way around -- a few low-level spells in the right place can give you a very significant leg-up, and you won't lose a whole lot in the fighting department (that you can't more than make up for with your newly found magical abilities).

Re the bard -- I'm currently playing as one, and it's actually very nice. The bardic song abilities are really nifty and buff your party up like mad, and the low-level magic she has can swing battles very well too. The point is that a bard alone is pretty wimpy, but as the leader of a well-balanced party can do a lot. It's a very different style of gameplay than the more usual "lone hero" kind and very well suited to NWN2. You can craft as well. However, the bard does play a quite a lot like a multiclass rogue/sorcerer with some extra perks.

[txa1265]

You zip through the levels fast early on, and slow down a lot later. The difference between level 1 and 3 is minutes, the difference between 15 and 17 is hours. The point is that the difference between 15 and 17 (wizard) is also the difference between level 8 and level 9 spells -- and the level-niners are real humdingers you wouldn't want to miss out on, and having access to them earlier will make a huuuge difference.
Ahhh ... just you mentioning level 9 spells makes me wish I was playing my Sorc rather than my Pally as a first play-through ;)

[Acleacius]

Very intrestng. :)
Ok looking at the Rogue it says Only a Rogue can Search for Traps over 20, does this mean (in theroy) if I could get my Search skill up 25 as any charater except a Rogue I am wasting points?
I was thinking if I just leveled certian skills up enough I could get the benifit of other classes but now I am not so sure.
Hey maybe I can do a duel weild Mage. :p

I do like the Bard and the Songs are great, it just get annoyed when I think I am being limited, hehe. :)

To me its about having fun and I know that Orc, Goblin or Lizard doesn't care if I slice and dice or fry him with a Fireball. ;)

Appoligies if this fun over challenge attiude annoys anyone I just got tired of always trying to do the challenge, atm anyway. :)

[Prime Junta]

@Acleacius -- if that's what it says, that's how it is. Then again, traps can be worked around in other ways too (mages can use magic to reveal them and summoned creatures or familiars to spring them, for example).

The type of character you want to build depends a lot on the game. So far, NWN2 seems way more party-based than NWN1, which means that it's better to specialize: in NWN1 many modules were a pain to play if you had low Search skills and little or no rogue skills, for example, which meant that there was a lot of benefit to multiclassing as some rogue. In NWN2 you have lots of characters to draw upon, and so far it seems that the only skills you can't get your party members to use are the social ones. IOW, specialization seems like a good idea at this time. Who knows if it'll change later.

Just for kicks, what with this discussion of 9th level spells and all, I rolled up a gnomish wizard named Economy Collapse who's big on artificing and has a bunny as a familiar. I left him at the harvest party, waiting for a later play-thru. The bunny is great, what with the twitching nose and all. Can't wait to see it in combat...

[Loburian]

One thing to consider: If you want to make a character part rogue/part something else, it would be smart to pick rogue at character creation. Rogue gets alot of points to put info their skils at level one.

[chamr]

Very intrestng. :)
Ok looking at the Rogue it says Only a Rogue can Search for Traps over 20, does this mean (in theroy) if I could get my Search skill up 25 as any charater except a Rogue I am wasting points?

I believe it's referring to the Difficulty Class (DC) of the trap itself. So, if you aren't a Rogue and the trap you're searching for is DC>20, it won't matter how high your Search skill is, you won't find the trap.

Am I right?

[Acleacius]

Heh, now I have a Wizzy I will try for awhile. ;)

Yes chamr, its the way I understand it, so ill try Prime Junta's idea if I can't disable the trap.
I wonder how often Trap DC > 20?

[Severius]

Ahhh ... just you mentioning level 9 spells makes me wish I was playing my Sorc rather than my Pally as a first play-through ;)

I went through it first time as a pali (11 pali/6 Divine Champion/2 Neverwinter Nine) and have no regrets :) I just used my sorc npc (wont name it incase folks havent come across it yet) almost ALL the time lol. For my second play through I am going with Fighter 2/Wizard with a switch into Eldritch Knight as soon as I can :) Had started a fighter/sorc to go into EK but it seems the sorc is too slow for the multi-classing although a druid/sorc might work nicely :)

[txa1265]

I just used my sorc npc (wont name it incase folks havent come across it yet) almost ALL the time lol.

Completely out of control, that one is ... ;)

[Corwin]

The decision to choose playing with a party as opposed to solo play is a very important one. I played the original as a sorc with a tank henchie to keep me alive long enough to cast. Bards are excellent support characters in a party; ask Cmgamer about MY bard sometime!! :biggrin: However, D&D was always designed to be a party system, so it works best in that environment. The interesting choice now, is whether to play a front line or support character. This may be important for the OC, but becomes essential when planning an online campaign with friends. THAT is what I'm really looking forward to in the near future. Hopefully, some of the regulars here might also wish to become involved. Eventually, I will establish a thread just for doing that, so please start thinking about becoming involved once MP mods begin to be developed!!

[Prime Junta]

Anyone notice that some of the spells appear not to have been debugged for the hardcore ruleset? Try Flame Burst, for example. Gotta love a fantasy RPG with suicide bombing as a viable combat strategy...

[Acleacius]

Corwin seems the Bard (or a Cleric which I haven't tried yet) is a perfect charater here in NWN 2 also.
Since it seems hard to keep Mobs off Range charaters atm, unless you have 2 frontline players, well at least for me.

Rofl at suicide bombing with Flame Burst. ;)