A Novel Take on Piracy

[Corwin]

Over at Twenty-Sided, Shamus Young has written a very novel take on on game piracy comparing it to sneaking into the movies without paying. In his usual humerous way, he makes several pertinent points and for a change, I'll give you part of his conclusion:
Which brings me to the only weapon I have at my disposal: I vote with my dollars every chance I get. I’ve forsworn BioShock, Mass Effect, Spore, and other big-name titles because of the contempt they show for honest people. I buy stuff from Stardock, even if the game isn’t really my cup of tea. To wit: My interest in Sins of a Solar Empire (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?tag=sins-of-a-solar-empire) was minuscule compared to any of the games I mentioned above, and it cost more. ($60 Collector’s Edition. Ow.) Stardock got me to pay more for a game I wanted less, and all they had to do was treat me like a customer instead of an enemy.
You can find it all right here (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1688).
More information. (http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/newsbit?newsbit=9187)

[Elwro]

I always get the "403 Forbidden" error when trying to read Shamus Young's page. Anyone got an idea? (Save for using a proxy.)

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Works for me now, although it's a little bit slow.

[r3dshift]

The site loads great with IE 6.0 under Windows XP SP2. A most funny read. :)

[Elwro]

I tried IE and it still doesn't work for me; it's the only page on which I get the "Forbidden" error. I wonder if it's country-related or what?

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I cannot say since I don't know your country.

I'd rather think that IE's security measures are too high.

[Prime Junta]

Hm. I don't like intrusive copy protection either, but it's more important for me that games I like to play continue to be made. Therefore I continue to buy games I want to play, even if the DRM is nastier than I'd like -- unless we're talking Starforce or rootkit level evil. Am I weird?

[zahratustra]

Yes you are PJ but that doesn't stop me from agreeing with you :)

[The Watchman]

I would normally agree with you Junta, but in this day and age, nothing worth while is made. Sure i can entertain myself for 20mins on some gta nobrain shitbox nonsense, but thats it. I dont feel attached to the games nor is there any thought or story in things other than "OMG lets make some more money on braindead kids".

So only thing left is indie games without DRM nonsense or kiddiebox whoring. The big games i just look at, i then blink and grab a book or something worth my time. Bioshock, Mass effect etc is nothing but lame games for the junk generation where using iq over 20 aint allowed.

So i wote with my cash and buy each and every indie game thats worth just 5mins of my time and throw all those big games out the window.

The thing is.... I might have bought one of the bigger games just to waste some time, but when you throw in the DRM crap, im out !

Again you might lure braindead kids, but noway someone with a normal brain will buy junk like this. So in the end, fuck off EA and Bioware, bethelda and all the other junk companies who cater to the lowest and forget their roots.... Fuck em !

[woges]

Hm. I don't like intrusive copy protection either, but it's more important for me that games I like to play continue to be made. Therefore I continue to buy games I want to play, even if the DRM is nastier than I'd like -- unless we're talking Starforce or rootkit level evil. Am I weird?

Nope, it's a dilemma all right.

[zahratustra]

Aren't you overdoing the "doom and gloom" bit Watchman? We all wish that single player game market was more buoyant and that we all were more spoilt for a choice but 2007 wasn't a complete waste for SPGs and 2008 might still spring a few suprises so, even discounting EA, Bioware and Bethesda, end of the world is not quite nigh!

[NFLed]

I don't get why it's important for people to be "treated like an honest person"? I care that I get the best game I can for a good price etc. and that the game works fine. If I'm in a store and a sensor scans me as I walk out to make sure that I'm not shoplifting what the heck do I care? As long as that scan doesn't damage my own items then I couldn't care less.

Skip buying a great game like Bioshock or Mass Effect? That's totally ridiculous, if those games aren't my cup of tea or on the border I could of course see skipping them but forcing myself to miss out on weeks of great gaming just because of some stupid notion about whether it's fair that companies try to avoid piracy is complete lunacy in my view.

Sometimes people get so strident about the most ridiculous topics but to each their own.

[Yeesh]

Agree NFLed. The article is written by a smart person who's heart is in the right place, but his conclusion is just dumb. Dumb dumb dumb. Voting with your dollar, not on the basis of how much you like a game, but instead on the basis of whether a company has DRM? Good plan. Hey, I'm making a game, Paypal me $50 and I'll email you the source code, distribute it to whoever you want. Working title: "Hello world." (that's supposed to be a programmer joke, but I'm not a programmer)

Anywho, firstly I'll point out that most indy games DO have pretty hefty DRM schemes. And secondly I'll point out that we don't hold it against them because for god's sake, those guys need all the help they can get, so what true gamer complains abuot having to jump through a few extra hoops to keep the little guys in business?

Well guess what, PC gamers. Our whole platform is the little guy these days. But online activation, or even DVD checks so bad that you have a whole 5% chance of having to contact tech support or even surf over to gamecopy and download a crack to play a game you pay for are not really analogous to strip searches. You'd really rather not have PC gaming at all then deal with a minor inconvenience? Smart plan.

Hey let's get rid of air travel too. I paid for my ticket, but I still have to wait on line to go through the metal detector? Stop treating ME like a criminal!

[Step back fella]

I tried IE and it still doesn't work for me; it's the only page on which I get the "Forbidden" error. I wonder if it's country-related or what?
Same here. It's possible they are blocking connections coming from Poland - for whatever reason.

[blatantninja]

I don't get why it's important for people to be "treated like an honest person"? I care that I get the best game I can for a good price etc. and that the game works fine. If I'm in a store and a sensor scans me as I walk out to make sure that I'm not shoplifting what the heck do I care? As long as that scan doesn't damage my own items then I couldn't care less.

Skip buying a great game like Bioshock or Mass Effect? That's totally ridiculous, if those games aren't my cup of tea or on the border I could of course see skipping them but forcing myself to miss out on weeks of great gaming just because of some stupid notion about whether it's fair that companies try to avoid piracy is complete lunacy in my view.

Sometimes people get so strident about the most ridiculous topics but to each their own.

I think the issue is how intrusive the DRM is. I don't have a problem with companies making sure that I paid for my software, but when it ends up causing system problems or I have to connect online and maybe I'm not in a spot to do so or losing the manual or something so that even though it's installed, I still can't get it to load (this happened with a couple old Ultima titles I tried to play), it's a problem.

That's why I don't mind connecting online to activate then being left to go along my merry way.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I don't get why it's important for people to be "treated like an honest person"?

Philosophy. The "Menschenbild", the picture or image of humans someone has in his or her mind.

If I hold a certain point of people, I'm going to treat them according to that.

If this Menschenbild is built up rather negatively, then I'll treat people like that.

If I believe that customers are nothing but cows, I'm going to treat them like that.

If I believe that humans are sources of creativity and inspiration to art, I'm gonna treat them like that.

The point with copy protections is that i believe that "they want to steal stuff from me". Therefore I act like that and want my stuff being protected.

If someone believes that all people non-US are potential terrorists, then I'll treat them like that. There is no question at all why ALL european flight companies HAVE TO give U.S. government forces the data of EVERY passenger - and not a single one vice versa.
This is, because it is believed that terrorists are nothing but outside of the U.S. . Inside, it's safe.

I can also have the image of humans as ... Well, potential robbers, criminals ... I'll treat them like that and do everything i can to get my own stuff protected and "them" out of it.
The measures increase with the amount of paranoia.

At one point, this turns into prejudice.

[blatantninja]

I think it is less prejudice and more paranoia. When a company makes a good game, but it fails commercially, the first thing they often blame is piracy. Although the Titan's Quest guy didn't say that it directly take sales away, he made the point that piracy of the beta versions caused a lot of people not to by the final game, even though the bugs people were complaining about most were fixed in the actual release. I see his point, but I think that it's a bit of grasping at straws as to why the game failed. If you make a great game and advertise it well, it will sell.

[blatantninja]

5 ways to Fight Piracy (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1558)

I really liked his ideas in this. I think they are all excellent points. I might disagree with number 4 a bit though. If the game is very popular, the pirates are going to continue to update their hacks. Of course, you're probably making lots of money, so who cares!

I think one of the points that Michael Fitch screwed up in his rant about pirates was that people thought something that was a DRM feature was actually a bug. IMO, it WAS a bug. Not because it caused you to exit the game, but because it didn't make it obvious that it was a DRM feature and not a bug. If I were playing a game and just got randomly kicked out with no explanation, I'd report it as a bug as well. If it flashed up a big "This version of Titan Quest is pirated, game exiting!" you probably would have seen most, if not all, of those 'bug' posts being 'hey it's still DRM'd' posts instead, which would have avoided the bad publicity that he seems to think really ruined the game.

[Corwin]

Elwro and others; I've sent off an email to Shamus asking about your problem. That's about all I can do currently.

[Dantre]

What is dumb about voting with you dollar, Yeesh? It's well known by now that it is often the ONLY way to make a difference.

Anyway, you might call DRM a 'minor inconvenience', but you would feel differently if it would actually prevent you from playing your legitimate copy. I'm still a bit bitter about not being able to play Runaway 2 for months because of the copy protection (in the end, I was sent a crack by the publishers). Since that time I have developped strong feelings against DRM. It always end up annoying the paying customers, never the pirates.

[Elwro]

@Corwin: Thank you very much!

[woges]

It's more to the point that EA are trying to take away your right to sell the game more than effect the pirates. People waving their arms in the air at me for having this point of view don't change my mind either.

[blatantninja]

It's more to the point that EA are trying to take away your right to sell the game more than effect the pirates. People waving their arms in the air at me for having this point of view don't change my mind either.

Do you mean like resell it after you are done? I haven't encountered any DRM that would prevent that (outside of maybe needing to call and do a telephone activation).

[Dhruin]

Count me in the camp that buys the games to support the developers, regardless of DRM.

I won't bother to explain why, because everyone's mind is already made up one way or the other. Discussing this topic is a waste of time.

[Prime Junta]

It's more to the point that EA are trying to take away your right to sell the game more than effect the pirates. People waving their arms in the air at me for having this point of view don't change my mind either.

We don't have any rights to the software other than those guaranteed to us by law, and those transferred to us through the license. Things are moving more and more towards a subscription-based business model. We don't actually buy a game; we buy the right to play the game. Previously we also had the right to resell that right; now it's being restricted.

Personally, I don't like it much, but I can live with it.

[DArtagnan]

Well, most of the bigs boys are in it for the buck. That much should be obvious to us all.

They're going to do what they can to maximize profit, and with this DRM thing - maybe that's their attempt at doing just that.

All we can do, and I do mean ALL (unless we start a movement against it or whatever) is vote with our money. The problem is interpretation. If I don't buy Mass Effect - for instance - does that mean I didn't like the copy protection or the game? Those are two of many possibilities. It could be that I loved the game, and that I didn't mind the copy protection - but I'm simply a pirate that prefers not to pay for the thing.

It's unlikely that they'll ever find out for certain - but it's VERY clear to me, personally, that implementing this kind of copy protection can ONLY hurt sales overall. Why? Because it will be cracked and in the VAST majority of cases, it will be cracked FAST.

So, what exactly is gained with DRM? I don't see it - because those few "normal" consumers who're prevented from copying it illegally, wouldn't have been able to do it with a regular protection anyway. Few as in those who would actually want to bother with trying - instead of simply waiting for a release on the "scene".

The delay to the "scene"? Minimal.

I'm convinced the number of people NOT buying the game because of DRM is greater, and that those who're on the fence about buying will have just one more excuse to pirate it.

I can't back that up with numbers, and I may be completely wrong. I just can't see anything else as the result of DRM.

[fatBastard()]

There is a problem with the whole "voting with your wallet" though, and that is that in many (if not most) cases it is nothing but an illusion that it means power to the consumer. Why? Simple. Unless a large enough number of people actually share your opinions and choose to boycott the exact same products as you do, then your so-called vote counts for as much as a drop in the ocean.

Back in the nineties when Jacques Chirac wanted to demonstrate the French military power by performing unnecessary nuclear test in French Polynesia, there was a large enough reaction by the general Danish population to create a measurable drop in the sales of French wine (among other things) for a few months. And when the largest Scandinavian dairy company tried to pull a "Microsoft" by attempting to force supermarkets to exclude products from other (and smaller) dairy companies in exchange for a discount, the reaction in the Danish population was outrage and the the "Big Bully" comparison was used a lot by the media and again the number of people deliberately choosing products from the smaller diary companies instead of the large one was large enough to be measurable for a little while.

However, I don't get the impression that the CP "problem" is anything more than an excuse to justify piracy for many (if not most) of the people complaining about it. I'm not accusing anyone here of that, of course, and I'm sure that there ARE plenty of people for whom this IS a problem or at the very least a matter of principle ... but I'm not so sure the genuinely outraged group is large enough to be measurable against the "phew, now I don't have to feel guilty about being a thief" group.

Of course, my view could be biased by the fact that the only problem I've ever had with any kind of copy protection is the framerate drop in Morrowind (which was later removed by a patch) and having to occasionally reboot my machine before playing a newly installed StarForce game (particularly from the early generation of the CP software). That's it. No "Oh noes, my computer just imploded, that most be because of SecureROM" incidents. No "I can't install the game, that must be because of SafeDisc" etc etc.

[booboo]

One would hope that "someone" (anyone? anti-DRM advocacy groups perhaps) would have the balls to challenge the DRM based business models that are being foisted on us. I see there has been some liberalization in the online music market which is encouraging, but the biggest culprits are the greedy publishers who pass on a tiny amount of profit to the artists and creative people who actually build the game, write the music etc. That shows how screwed up things are. DRM is their way of protecting their (usually small, in relative terms) investment in talent. As to the "Things are moving more and more towards a subscription-based business mode" comment - ok, I'd buy into that - if I could pay a few $'s to play a game and then be done with it. If I'm paying $50 I expect (as was the case in the past) to have ownership in the usual sense (when I buy a music cd I can play it again and again, in perpetuity, until I can no longer find a device that plays that media - if I was masochistic enough ;-) But somehow I don't see them dropping the price of Bioshock to $5. So, they want to "rent" something to you, for a usurious price - greedy bastards is what I call them. If we buy into that, then that is our fault.

[mute]

I do buy games with DRMs.... but i also buy games from stardock, much because of the same reason as Shamus wrote - because of their status as a great developer/publisher that know their customers.

Its strange, i have no idea why. And i do like it when developers "get it". I am much more weary for releases from EA, Ubisoft and the like. I don't buy games from them on a whim as i do from Stardock.

Strange, and very un-economical. :)

[woges]

One would hope that "someone" (anyone? anti-DRM advocacy groups perhaps) would have the balls to challenge the DRM based business models that are being foisted on us. I see there has been some liberalization in the online music market which is encouraging, but the biggest culprits are the greedy publishers who pass on a tiny amount of profit to the artists and creative people who actually build the game, write the music etc. That shows how screwed up things are. DRM is their way of protecting their (usually small, in relative terms) investment in talent. As to the "Things are moving more and more towards a subscription-based business mode" comment - ok, I'd buy into that - if I could pay a few $'s to play a game and then be done with it. If I'm paying $50 I expect (as was the case in the past) to have ownership in the usual sense (when I buy a music cd I can play it again and again, in perpetuity, until I can no longer find a device that plays that media - if I was masochistic enough ;-) But somehow I don't see them dropping the price of Bioshock to $5. So, they want to "rent" something to you, for a usurious price - greedy bastards is what I call them. If we buy into that, then that is our fault.

Someone went to court recently over selling some office software. Then the company that made the software tried to sue the guy because they only 'licensed' the product, they went to court and lost. This was over the right to sell once again. I did a quick search and you can find some details here. (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080523-court-smacks-autodesk-affirms-right-to-sell-used-software.html)

[Dhruin]

It's unlikely that they'll ever find out for certain - but it's VERY clear to me, personally, that implementing this kind of copy protection can ONLY hurt sales overall. Why? Because it will be cracked and in the VAST majority of cases, it will be cracked FAST.

So, what exactly is gained with DRM? I don't see it - because those few "normal" consumers who're prevented from copying it illegally, wouldn't have been able to do it with a regular protection anyway. Few as in those who would actually want to bother with trying - instead of simply waiting for a release on the "scene".

The delay to the "scene"? Minimal.

I'm convinced the number of people NOT buying the game because of DRM is greater, and that those who're on the fence about buying will have just one more excuse to pirate it.

I can't back that up with numbers, and I may be completely wrong. I just can't see anything else as the result of DRM.

We all have our theories. I think the opposite - that the people boycotting are a vocal few thousand posters on the internet and an insignificant amount in the 250,000 - 1M+ who might pick this up at the their local game store and couldn't care less about the EULA or DRM technicalities. Meanwhile, if the guestimate of 10-100 pirates for every legitimate copy is even vaguely correct, converting 1% into sales can be good dollars.

Publishers sometimes do strange things but it belies credulity for me that basically no publishers see this obvious truth that protection is a waste of money. Sure, EA are idiots. So are Ubisoft, THQ, Activision and everyone else. Don't you think someone might just buck the trend (other than Stardock, a minor publisher who uses this as a marketing device)? Or is it possible that they've done the math and concluded that despite the internet wisdom, DRM does make some sort of financial sense?

As for the scene, I don't know anything about it but I thought I'd wander over to The Pirate Bay for the fun of it. Yes, this is an unscientific as everyone else's unproven assumptions.

It looks like the Mass Effect cracks are failures so far and a couple of them shipped with Trojans. A taste:


alkkfkfkfkkf at 2008-06-02 00:02 CET:
Beause of all this hassle, I've actually ordered the game (isn't released in sweden yet).

If any game is worth buying, it's probably this one, atleast if it works properly, which it probably doesn't, but atleast I'll have the right to complain then. :D

evildmt at 2008-06-02 00:04 CET:
Supposedly this is already nuked for containing a trojan.

Noru at 2008-06-02 00:39 CET:
Trojan, do NOT download. Delete.

HavingWithdrawal at 2008-06-02 00:43 CET:
This is not a trojan you morons. It's on GameCopyWorld...but it doesn't even matter anyway. It doesn't fix anything.

Corwin111 at 2008-06-02 00:54 CET:
This is not a trojan. Or at least there is definitely a legit crackfix release with this name.

Question is are you guys 100% certain it doesnt work? Or if this is the file it's supposed to be...

Cuz there's a few really excited people on nforce and other forums sayng that this actually works perfectly... and fixes the map and saves even after you restart the game...

HavingWithdrawal at 2008-06-02 01:27 CET:
Like I said, I applied this crack fix right after I first installed the game. I ran the game for the very first time with this crack fix applied, and it does not correct anything. Once you become a Spectre, you can no longer save or quicksave, and the galaxy map is pitch black and broken when you access it. These people who release cracks need to play the game for more than 20 minutes.

silence951 at 2008-06-02 01:48 CET:
it doesnt fix the game saving issue for me, but i see the galaxy map. did you start a new game like the nfo tells you to?

aegise at 2008-06-02 02:12 CET:
Im looking at my registry, I found these

HKEY_CLASSES_ROOTS - MassEffectSave - ShellEx - {BB2E617C-0920-11d1-9A0B-00C04FC2D6C1}
(and a bunch of SecuROM stuff in other folders)
since the cracks dont currently work, anyone know if deleting the "rootkit" stuff in the registry would work?

slimdaddy47 at 2008-06-02 02:42 CET:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/slimdaddy47/error.jpg

any ideas?

gryeyes at 2008-06-02 03:00 CET:
Ya you downloaded a corrupt/infected file like a retard.

himar at 2008-06-02 05:26 CET:
Legit and doesn't work as intended

HavingWithdrawal at 2008-06-02 06:26 CET:
I'm sure plenty of people have tried this "crack fix" by now. Has it worked for any of you bastards or are you all still getting the same shit problems like me?

I am disappointed with both of the groups, as it was announced MONTHS before this shit came out that Bioware/EA were planning to put protection up the ass on this game. We're obviously feeling the reprecussions of this right now. In fact, those cocksuckers were orginally planning on forcing people who bought the game to connect to the Internet once every 10 days to authenticate their CD keys with their servers, otherwise the game would completely stop running. That probably would have killed their sales even more than we do.

If a REAL crack doesn't come out soon though, I might actually end up buying this shit after all, because it's the first game I've played in years that has really impressed the shit out of me both graphically and game play wise.


Yeah, I know. Two whole people who might buy the game - but how many others wasted 7Gb of download and decided $40 wasn't such a big deal after all? No idea - but my guess is some of them.

I keep reading that pirates are only there for the fun of downloading and probably don't even play the games but if that were universally true, there wouldn't be so much angst that a crack doesn't work. Some of these guys are desperate to play - maybe even desperate enough to pay for it.

[DArtagnan]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the numbers are significant in either case.

Whether it hurts or benefits developers to implement DRM, I don't think the impact is very big overall.

But even if Mass Effect isn't cracked properly, it's only a matter of time until it is. I suspect the people in question are aware of that in this day and age - so only the most desperate pirates would want to buy it because of a faulty crack.

That's what I'd think anyway, but what do I know.

In the end, I doubt it'll change anything to have this DRM thing - I just personally think it's silly and unnecessary.

[woges]

Yeah, if we can get more of those addicts to play and pay we could make millions. This doesn't exactly go hand-in-hand with my ethos either but to each their own. I'd rather spend my money on taking my lady out to the cinema that really supply a service than support DRM. I've purchased most of Bioware's games over the years so they've had plenty of support from me but on this we part ways. Maybe they will do better business maybe they won't I don't care; I'm not handing over rights so games companies can have some kind of Orwellian control on their 'products'.

[Brother None]

Hm. I don't like intrusive copy protection either, but it's more important for me that games I like to play continue to be made. Therefore I continue to buy games I want to play, even if the DRM is nastier than I'd like -- unless we're talking Starforce or rootkit level evil. Am I weird?

I agree, pretty much. I find SecuROM/DRM to be a part of the "service pack" consideration. I use Steam and Gamer's Gate for most of my purchases these days (haven't been to a store to buy a game in some time now), Steam obviously uses its own system, but I believe GG uses SecuRom. But my experience with their service in case I have had any trouble (which is rare) has been excellent, they really use it only as a tool to limit simultaneous installs and are supportive otherwise - that's enough for me.

Still, in the case of borderline purchase decisions like Mass Effect, which I really don't feel any pressing need to play...yeah, invasive DRM schemes can tip the balance and in the case of ME they did. I'm not buying this game because of the DRM.

But I do agree general boycott is not always sensible - after all, you're purchasing a product, service is kind of a secondary consideration. I pre-ordered BioShock CE despite the DRM because this was balanced by their general high-quality community management. The game was not what I'd hoped it to be, but apropos...

Anywho, firstly I'll point out that most indy games DO have pretty hefty DRM schemes.

Really? Examples?

We all have our theories. I think the opposite - that the people boycotting are a vocal few thousand posters on the internet and an insignificant amount in the 250,000 - 1M+ who might pick this up at the their local game store and couldn't care less about the EULA or DRM technicalities.

You know just as well as I do that this is a gross simplification, Dhruin.

Sure, the boycotters are a vocal minority, but we're talking about a PC gaming industry that in popular parlance is already giving ground; retreating from shelves, seen as the retard cousin of console gaming, etc. etc.

If I'm Average Joe Consumer, then the choice between console and PC is determined by a lot of factors. One of those is DRM, and DRM can be enough to tip the balance. If I look at Mass Effect, I not only see that it was available on Xbox360 long before it was available on PC, but I hear indirectly that on top of that a number of people who bought it couldn't even play it on PC because of the DRM.

Do I bother to research it or read manifesto and counter-manifesto? No, but "there's a chance DRM will prevent me from playing the game" goes in the file of "reasons to abandon PC for console". Not to mention if I just hear "you only get 3 installs" and don't bother to research that further: only 3 installs? Hell no, I'm going SexBox for Mass Effect.

Seriously, PC has enough problems without this nonsense. It's a fact invasive DRM does not hurt pirates at all - except those who can't wait for a week until a working crack is released (and honestly, I can't imagine that one week being a significant offset against people turned away from the PC, but publishers usually declare victory if it takes a few days to crack), but can significantly bother paying costumers. I hate piracy as much as the next guy, and I see no reason to contest publisher's right to release their product however they want with whatever kind of DRM they want - it's their product, after all - but is it smart? Hell no, it's stupid.

At the very least on the long-term...I can see it making short-term sense. In that way Shamus' analogy makes sense: in the direct term, you will get more revenue as a theatre, but eventually people are going to give up and look for alternatives as they get tired of the abuse.

Heck, to be honest I don't even think it's the publisher's job to fight piracy, and would rather see police forces do more to catch and imprison pirates. But as long as it's mostly in the hands of publishers, I'd like to see solutions that work, and yes that includes StarDock in a small scale, but in a large scale Valve has managed to force back piracy even in emerging countries like Russia and China. I realise publishers have too much at stake here to experiment (it's kind of ironic how film and music industries have experimented more with digital alternatives than games, but film/music do have back-up ways of making money), but at some point they're going to have to admit that trying to hang on to physical media and treating your consumers as the enemy is not the way to go.

Publishers sometimes do strange things but it belies credulity for me that basically no publishers see this obvious truth that protection is a waste of money. Sure, EA are idiots. So are Ubisoft, THQ, Activision and everyone else. Don't you think someone might just buck the trend (other than Stardock, a minor publisher who uses this as a marketing device)? Or is it possible that they've done the math and concluded that despite the internet wisdom, DRM does make some sort of financial sense?

Appeal to authority doesn't really work when the authority are idiots who believe PC gaming is dead anyway.

Remember Sierra and Arcanum? Remember how pirated copies of Arcanum were floating about 6 months prior to release because of Sierra's decision to delay it after review copies had gone out? Don't tell me publishers know what they're doing.

Valve. Valve knows knows what it's doing (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=18843). But these other guys? Hell no.

[Zaleukos]

Do I bother to research it or read manifesto and counter-manifesto? No, but "there's a chance DRM will prevent me from playing the game" goes in the file of "reasons to abandon PC for console". Not to mention if I just hear "you only get 3 installs" and don't bother to research that further: only 3 installs? Hell no, I'm going SexBox for Mass Effect.

It is of course rather doubtful whether the survival of the PC as a gaming platform has any intrinsic value to devs whatsoever. Standardised hardware is a huge advantage for any software developers, and the consoles offer that.

[Brother None]

It is of course rather doubtful whether the survival of the PC as a gaming platform has any intrinsic value to devs whatsoever. Standardised hardware is a huge advantage for any software developers, and the consoles offer that.

Very true. Though PC's huge install base always manages to lure publishers back. Even a specific service like Steam has an install base of 15 million, which puts it on par with current-generation consoles in install base.

Hell, in a lot of ways Steam is just a way of transplanting console values to PC: it offers standardized software to developers in the SDK (though it can't really help the varying hardware), it offers an install base and wards off pirates, and in trade for that you pay them. Much the same as any console, really, 'cept the variable hardware.

Still, innovation is inevitable. Either current publishers will largely abandon PC gaming to publishers more capable of adapting to PC's specific strengths and weaknesses (like Vivendi/Blizzard or Valve) or they too will adapt. Because this method just isn't working unless someone makes an unbreakable DRM - which is just too unlikely.

Too bad we'll have to listen to all this "PC gaming is dying" nonsense in the meantime.

[Prime Junta]

Hell, in a lot of ways Steam is just a way of transplanting console values to PC: it offers standardized software to developers in the SDK (though it can't really help the varying hardware), it offers an install base and wards of pirate, and in trade for that you pay them. Much the same as any console, really, 'cept the variable hardware.

Throw in a really robust hardware abstraction layer (aka game engine), and you're even closer.

Still, innovation is inevitable. Either current publishers will largely abandon PC gaming to publishers more capable of adapting to PC's specific strengths and weaknesses (like Vivendi/Blizzard or Valve) or they too will adapt. Because this method just isn't working unless someone makes an unbreakable DRM - which is just too unlikely.

Indeed.

Too bad we'll have to listen to all this "PC gaming is dying" nonsense in the meantime.

Who says we have to listen?

[Brother None]

Who says we have to listen?

Well - I do, because it's my job to read such articles and decide to post them on GameBanshee or not.

Still, I get paid for that, so it's all good :P

[Zaleukos]

Still, innovation is inevitable. Either current publishers will largely abandon PC gaming to publishers more capable of adapting to PC's specific strengths and weaknesses (like Vivendi/Blizzard or Valve) or they too will adapt. Because this method just isn't working unless someone makes an unbreakable DRM - which is just too unlikely.

Too bad we'll have to listen to all this "PC gaming is dying" nonsense in the meantime.

I dont really buy into the "PC gaming is dying" cries in the strictest sense either. As long as the PC is a fairly essential tool that exists in most homes there will be game development for it. But it is not a given that big name devs will stay on the platform.

And I'd say Windows and DirectX brought the console values to PCs well before steam:)

[Brother None]

But it is not a given that big name devs will stay on the platform.

Nor is it a given that the platform needs said big name devs.

To be honest, I think the PC can survive fine if EA and the like completely abandon it (Activision-Vivendi abandoning it may be more jarring - but they're not going to). Publishers leaving does not remove the potential of the platform, which means that inevitable new (European?) publishers move in.

Already you can see people (like CliffyB) retreating while the two groups that advance on the console are people who understand its mechanics (Valve, Blizzard) or have a level of contact with a (regionally defined) market segment (CD Project, GSC) (or understand both, really, but you know what I mean).

Seriously, would you feel it a bad thing if the mainstream AAA market abandons the PC to the above-named groups? I certainly wouldn't mind.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Do you mean like resell it after you are done? I haven't encountered any DRM that would prevent that (outside of maybe needing to call and do a telephone activation).

Here in Germany, Microsoft constantly battles a company that sells used licenses - in business terms. Commercial software, reallly expensive one, not games.

Recently the xth try to draw this company towards a court has been made by Microsoft.

[Yeesh]

DRM in indies: Maybe I don't know what DRM means in this context, but I just bought a copy of GalCiv2 from eBay (brand new), and you can't update the game unless you create an account with stardock AND register the game with the CDkey you got emailed when you bought the game online. Obviously, I DIDN'T buy the game online (at least not from them), but the despite my having what is obviously a legit retail copy (I don't think a pirate designed and printed up a whole PC game box just to fool suckers on eBay), the registration process didn't even acknowledge the possibility of having a CD key from a physical CD, and kept telling me mine was invalid and asking me for the one I got in email when I bought the game from Stardock. Eventaully, I was able to register using th CD key, but through a different part of the stardock central program, and only then could I update the game.

In the course of researching my problem, the most seemingly on-point post (sticky actually) I found on the Stardock forums was specifically addressed to people who'd bought a copy of the game on eBay and found that their CD keys were invalid (since they had already been registered). Stardock's position on this: Sucks to be you, because you had no right to buy a used copy of our game, now buy another copy from us. Being the clever fellow I am, I realized that this was not addressed to me, since I'd bought a NEW copy off of eBay, but it was clear that whoever wrote the post hadn't considered that there might be new as well as used copies on eBay, and the sticky certainly SEEMED to be targetted squarely at me, a person who bought off of eBay who was getting an invalid CD key message.

So that was a PITA, and here's the point. Relative to say buying a copy of a console game off of eBay, used or new, the experience of buying a brand-spanking new indie PC game was a titanic hassle, which I wouldn't recommend to anyone with limited understanding of the way these activation schemes work and a penchant for sifting through forums to get answers, ESPECIALLY if the person in question would ever call me for advice. No thanks, just go get yourself some Medal of Honor 17 for xbox and leave me out of the equation.

But I'm not of those people who don't understand PC gaming, and at this point, neither are most PC gamers. The nnoyances DRM schemes give us are indeed minor. If you honestly think that piracy doesn't affect game sles, then I still see why you'd think copy protection is stupid. But if you honestly think piracy doesn't affect game sales, then you seriously believe people will pay for something when they can get that same something for free. I wish I'd had your upbringing, because you must have had a pretty sweet life filled with honest, hard working people who never wronged you. If you lose your wallet, you figure it's going to turn up in your mailbox in a few days, with every dollar of cash still in there. That's a nice world.

Me and them pessimistic game companies, though, see things differently. And again I raise the airline anaolgy to counter that movie theater anaolgy. You do have to wait on line to get through those metal detectors EVEN THOUGH you paid so much for your ticket. You don't complain because you know this level of safety is necessary to make the industry work.

Of course there are limits to what we'll put up with, but automatic once-every-ten-days online activation is showing blatant contempt for your customers? I don't see it.

I write too much, but I say this anyway to address the notion that piracy does not affect PC sales. The fundamental flaw in most people's thinking about the 'morality' or the effect of casual piracy is the notion that mediocre games don't deserve to be bought. In the grand scheme of things, I cannot say if that's true. Bt, on consoles, and in movie theaters, mediocre productions ARE bought. Withuot the try before you buy of software piracy, people just pony up the dough. They still have access to movie reviews and console game reviews, but the public pays a lot of money to see crappy movies and play crappy console games anyway. Go to rotten tomatoes, and look at the ratings fro the top 10 movies. No correlation between quality and financial success. PC games, on the other hand, are held to this higher standard, since so many people have the option to try before they buy. You would have a hard time convincing me that this is not a major factor in the PC sales difficulties.

[fatBastard()]

Seriously, would you feel it a bad thing if the mainstream AAA market abandons the PC to the above-named groups? I certainly wouldn't mind.

In the niche market that RPGs have turned into? Probably not considering the whole JRPG has already move to the consoles years ago (or perhaps more accurately: have never left the consoles) and a game like The Witcher has shown that sometimes the grit does contain a perl. But for many other genres, then I would indeed mind. I want my RTS and FPS games based on mouse control and not a little imprecise thumbstick.

And let's not forget that while many here have enjoyed Spiderweb games over the years, that kind of games ARE nevertheless themselves also a niche branch of the RPG genre and I, for one, would NOT gladly accept exchanging ALL the glittering graphics and high quality voice acting for Spiderwebs or Eschalons. Don't get me wrong. I enjoy all kinds of fruit; apples, pears, bananas and oranges. However, I wouldn't want to replace all the apples, pears and oranges with bananas.

So, yes I guess I would indeed mind if all the AAA were to go away ... or to be perfectly honest: Should that happen then I'm fairly certain my days as a PC gamer would be over. I like my principles as much as the next guy, but at the end of the day, I'm a gamer first and foremost and if the games are going away, then I'm going with them. I did it when I exchanged my C64 for an Amiga and I did when I exchanged my Amiga for a PC. Judging by the ratio between my recent purchases of console games vs. PC games it would indeed seem like I'm doing it again ....

[DArtagnan]

Between AAA titles and relatively tiny productions like Eschalon and the Spiderweb games, there is a huge space.

I personally have no great desire for AAA titles, unless they're of a genre that is currently barren or limited. The case with such games is always that they need to reach a huge market to justify production costs, and as a natural rule in the gaming industry that directly translates to compromised gameplay - or if you prefer - "dumbed down" games.

The RPG space is sufficiently big to make a profit, even if you invest a reasonable amount in terms of production values and stick with a limited audience. I'm sure games like Two Worlds, Sacred, and even The Witcher generated a very reasonable revenue. The Witcher had a big budget, obviously, but it's not what I would consider a pure AAA title - and though you could consider the combat system "dumbed down", it's obviously not a mass market oriented game. Too cerebral for the masses, i'd say.

No, let's get rid of the crowd-pleasers and hold on to the developers with enough integrity to make do with a respectable audience and a reasonable profit. Bethesda, Take 2, Bioware, and so on are already lost in greed. I say let them go.

[Dhruin]

Really? Examples?

Depends on how you want to argue the definition but lots of people are upset that Mass Effect has a 3-install limit on different hardware, right? Then all Spiderweb games and Depths of Peril. Both of them use a hardware-linked serial number and you'll need to write in to install on a different machine once (it's easy to get around, but that's not the point). Mount&Blade allows two hardware configs, IIRC. You get the idea.

You know just as well as I do that this is a gross simplification, Dhruin.

Of course it is...just like your comment that publishers are idiots. This is a complex issue and we have almost no data to work with - we're all making guesses and assumptions.

[Elwro]

(Regarding Spiderweb: if you buy their game on a CD, there's no problem with serial numbers as they are not needed. You can install the game anytime and anywhere you want. Demos upgraded to full versions with serials are different, though, as Dhruin said.)

[Corwin]

I received a reply from Shamus about access problems. Here's the response.

Thanks so much for the heads up. I do have a lot of IP's banned here
and there. Mostly because of this:

http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1529

It helps knowing that some of the victims of the blocks are in Poland.
I can see if I can locate and remove those entries.

Thanks again for taking the time to let me know,

Shamus

[Zaleukos]

Seriously, would you feel it a bad thing if the mainstream AAA market abandons the PC to the above-named groups? I certainly wouldn't mind.

In a few select cases I definitely would. Luckily interface issues have kept migration down in my preferred genres so far.

[jhwisner]

DRM in indies: Maybe I don't know what DRM means in this context, but I just bought a copy of GalCiv2 from eBay (brand new), and you can't update the game unless you create an account with stardock AND register the game with the CDkey you got emailed when you bought the game online. Obviously, I DIDN'T buy the game online (at least not from them), but the despite my having what is obviously a legit retail copy (I don't think a pirate designed and printed up a whole PC game box just to fool suckers on eBay), the registration process didn't even acknowledge the possibility of having a CD key from a physical CD, and kept telling me mine was invalid and asking me for the one I got in email when I bought the game from Stardock. Eventaully, I was able to register using th CD key, but through a different part of the stardock central program, and only then could I update the game.


That's not really DRM or even copy protection. Even purchasers of stolen/already installed copies of GalCiv2 are able to install and play the game. They just require a unique CD-key to register for updates (oh yeah, you also get access to download the game anytime on any machine as well as retrieve your serial key should you lose it.) I'm not sure why you had so much trouble though, as I had registered the serial off the physical key just fine through the link from the launcher. Just asked my friend across the hall and he did not encounter any difficulty with it either. It's possible you were merely re-typing the same incorrectly read code until you came back later to re-try inside the account managment part of the stardock central software.

It's interesting that you chose to complain about stardock though. Unlike that X-Box game you bought, stardock will allow you to re-download it as much as you want and even send you the serial information if you lost it. You're perfectly capable of selling the game used- you just have to configure the account for the new user. People who sell the game disc but do not turn over access to the associated account are simply thieves. It's like selling a used laptop on ebay but keeping the ram and processor without mentioning it. Your complaint is akin to someone buying said gutted laptop and then being confused about why the manufacturer wouldn't send them the replacement parts.

Stardock provides a pretty robust support service like-
-real time chat with staff who are actually testers and programmers of the software. I noticed an issue with larger maps incorrectly scaling resource bonus tiles and asked about it in chat through stardock central. CariElf (sp?) responded and emailed me a link to a hotfix they created the next day. Within a week the scaling tweak was included in an official patch.
-regular updates that have included massive performance boosts, graphics texture improvements, ai improvements in addition to the standard bug fixes you see from most developers.
-ability to retrieve the serial keys and download the software on any system indefinately.

Can you redownload that x-box game if you lose the disc?

[MudsAnimalFriend]

[Would it be] a bad thing if the mainstream AAA market abandons the PC to the above-named groups? I certainly wouldn't mind.
Neither would I because it doesn't require a mainstream publisher to produce a successful high quality PC title. In fact the current mainstream business model is fundamentally flawed and it's their business practices not PC gaming that's endangered. What puzzles me is why the debate is always framed in "either or" terms: either the console or the PC, as if the markets are mutually exclusive. There's no reason why a publisher cannot make money in both markets. Sega, a console brand name is ever there was one, has made money with the PC 'exclusive' Total War series.

Regardless of corporate bottom lines, there is no shortage of talented people out there developing and expanding games for *free*. The "Broken Crescent" Mod for Medieval 2: Total War looks and plays far better than anything Creative Assembly have produced for their own engine. Ditto "Fall From Heaven" for Civilization 4 (another PC 'exclusive'). Meanwhile, sans hype or fanfare, the smaller publishers continue to churn out AAA PC title after title: The Witcher, Disciples III, Kings Bounty, Sins of a Solar Empire...

[Elwro]

I received a reply from Shamus about access problems. Here's the response.

Thanks so much for the heads up. I do have a lot of IP's banned here
and there. Mostly because of this:

http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1529

It helps knowing that some of the victims of the blocks are in Poland.
I can see if I can locate and remove those entries.

Thanks again for taking the time to let me know,

ShamusThank you for sending him the info! Strange situation. Funnily enough, I was able to enter his site to read the explanation, but I'm still not allowed to read the actual article. Shannow sent the text to me - thanks!

[Brother None]

In the niche market that RPGs have turned into? Probably not considering the whole JRPG has already move to the consoles years ago (or perhaps more accurately: have never left the consoles) and a game like The Witcher has shown that sometimes the grit does contain a perl. But for many other genres, then I would indeed mind. I want my RTS and FPS games based on mouse control and not a little imprecise thumbstick.

I agree.

But it's not like PC has a niche only for RPGs. If all the AAA RPS producers completely abandon the PC, that niche would too be filled. It's kind of an economic inevitability, because there's no way PC is simply "unprofitable".

Still, we might have to settle for less (graphic) polish on PC.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Stardock's position on this: Sucks to be you, because you had no right to buy a used copy of our game, now buy another copy from us.

I think this is the very core of DRM :

1 person = 1 copy of the game

With effective binding through DRM. So that used games (used software) cannot be re-sold anymore. Like win xp, for example.

This vastly increases the amount of sold copies, because you ALWAYS have to buy a new one - even if your old copy breaks physically, I assume.

[BillSeurer]

If I'm Average Joe Consumer, then the choice between console and PC is determined by a lot of factors. One of those is DRM, and DRM can be enough to tip the balance. If I look at Mass Effect, I not only see that it was available on Xbox360 long before it was available on PC, but I hear indirectly that on top of that a number of people who bought it couldn't even play it on PC because of the DRM.

And probably 100x more couldn't play it because they have some "wrong" combination of hardware and software that has nothing to do with DRM.

I'm with the "I hate the DRM crap but grit my teeth and put up with it" camp. I've known enough casual copiers that I understand who they are trying to prevent from stealing their stuff. And don't get me going on the hypocrisy of the "the evil, greedy gaming companies/distributors/stores are ripping us off" people...

[kalniel]

Maybe we should forget DRM, and instead mandate an extra charge on any computer uploading content to the internet, per gb.

[Prime Junta]

Maybe we should forget DRM, and instead mandate an extra charge on any computer uploading content to the internet, per gb.

And you would monitor that... how?

[Corwin]

Maybe we should forget DRM, and instead mandate an extra charge on any computer uploading content to the internet, per gb.

In a way that's done here in Oz. The ISP's monitor both downloads and uploads and you are only allowed so much COMBINED for your monthly fee. Let's say $60 gets you 12 GB. That's your combined limit before they cut your speed to dial-up or below!!

[zahratustra]

That's simply limited broadband Corwin. Here, in the UK, you can buy limited and unlimited broadband packages with limited being much cheaper.

[Corwin]

It's actually called UNLIMITED here and we only have a choice in what the 'limit' is based on what we're willing to pay.

[Brother None]

Oh, and lest I forget...

Of course it is...just like your comment that publishers are idiots. This is a complex issue and we have almost no data to work with - we're all making guesses and assumptions.

'course it's not that simple. Buy you don't need an Economics Major (just a Minor) to understand that the interests of publishers do not necessarily mesh well with fighting piracy and promoting PC gaming on the long term. All they care about is squeezing as many sales as possible out of the game - preferably in a single week. DRM is perfect for that, and they have no reason to care about any long-term consequences for PC gaming.

[zahratustra]

While it might be true BN, how long does it take for the information that a certain game might be flawed due to its DRM to spread on various sites and message boards to spread? Couple of days at the most!

[Brother None]

DRM gets a lot of bad press even prior to release, tho', whether it breaks the game or not.

[kalniel]

In a way that's done here in Oz. The ISP's monitor both downloads and uploads and you are only allowed so much COMBINED for your monthly fee. Let's say $60 gets you 12 GB. That's your combined limit before they cut your speed to dial-up or below!!*nods* We have similar for cheaper accounts, but I'm suggesting a mandatory charge per gb for uploading only - it needn't be too expensive so that the average user doesn't even notice it, but it'd hit people who upload a LOT of content without getting any funding for it (ie commercial and free projects with funding should still be fine) the aim would be to hit people pirating more than others - even if pirate sites started demanding a small charge for downloading I think it'd have a beneficial effect over all, if like me you believe a significant factor in piracy is sheer ease of getting hold of it.

DRM gets a lot of bad press even prior to release, tho', whether it breaks the game or not.Who gives it the bad press though? On message boards that I have anything to do with there's usually a correlation between the most ardent DRM haters and those who have admitted pirating software at some point. Of course, there are legitimate users who have problems with it as well, but they don't tend to make so much noise unless it's actually affecting them post release. Even post-release the majority of complaints come from people who haven't bought the game and who somehow think they have a right to moan about the problems they have running an illegitimate copy :p

[Alrik Fassbauer]

A few days ago I had a rather weird thought:

What if a game is SO MUCH specialized that it is dorected towards an extremely small group of lovers of this very specialized genre who are willing to buy it just out of some sort of pride that a game "for them" was made at all ?

I don't know whether I could make clear what I meant.
It's basically that very, very specialized groups (of lovers of a very special gaming genre) might perhaps live some sort of pride for their games so that they'll definitively BUY it, not pirate it, just because the developer is or might be the ONLY one supporting it ...

Pirating is imho done by the masses. I mean by people with the taste of masses. I don't uite think that pirates would put so much effort into cracking a game that's so extremely specialized that let's say only 100 gamers would play it. As an example.

So, in this weird concept / thought I had, a game would sell the more, the rather it is specialized.

Because pirates wouldn't be interested in it, in this thought-concept.

[Brother None]

Who gives it the bad press though? On message boards that I have anything to do with there's usually a correlation between the most ardent DRM haters and those who have admitted pirating software at some point. Of course, there are legitimate users who have problems with it as well, but they don't tend to make so much noise unless it's actually affecting them post release. Even post-release the majority of complaints come from people who haven't bought the game and who somehow think they have a right to moan about the problems they have running an illegitimate copy :p

I think that's unfair stereotyping you're doing there, I doubt Shamus is a pirate, but even so: it doesn't matter who gives it bad press. Bad word of mouth is bad word of mouth.

What if a game is SO MUCH specialized that it is dorected towards an extremely small group of lovers of this very specialized genre who are willing to buy it just out of some sort of pride that a game "for them" was made at all ?

That's part of the success of indies and the likes of Stardock - an attractiveness as a company/design philosophy on top of just offering a product.

At least I think that's what you mean

[Prime Junta]

I think Stardock put it rather intelligently -- they look for the biggest market of paying players, and simply ignore pirates. IOW, they don't make games for oversexed teenagers with very little pocket money and a fuck-you attitude to society, but to intelligent, thoughtful, and responsible adults who work day jobs. Sounds like a pretty good strategy to me (and makes the Crysis guys sound like whiners).

[Yeesh]

It's interesting that you chose to complain about stardock though. Unlike that X-Box game you bought, stardock will allow you to re-download it as much as you want and even send you the serial information if you lost it. You're perfectly capable of selling the game used- you just have to configure the account for the new user.

1. It's interesting that you think I'm complaining about Stardock, when in fact I'm just relating that indie copy protection schemes can be as much of a hassle, even for a relatively savy PC user, as the maligned big company DRM devices that are the subject of this whole teacup tsunami. I'm happy to put up with some hassle to play a Stardock game, and I'm happy to put up with some hassle to play any good game. It's not that big a deal, just like I don't complain about airlines making me go through metal detectors DESPITE the fact that I paid for my ticket. The nerve.

2. Here's what Stardock has to say in response to your take on their used game policy. My copy was new, so it's not my problem, but here's a heads up anyway:

A few people have been running into problems where they've purchased a used copy of GalCiv II, or one off eBay, and they're told that their serial number's already been used. It is against Stardock's license terms to sell used copies of the game, and as such, they will not be supported.

[Dhruin]

I think Stardock put it rather intelligently -- they look for the biggest market of paying players, and simply ignore pirates. IOW, they don't make games for oversexed teenagers with very little pocket money and a fuck-you attitude to society, but to intelligent, thoughtful, and responsible adults who work day jobs. Sounds like a pretty good strategy to me (and makes the Crysis guys sound like whiners).

There's no doubting the wisdom of this but there are, of course, complications.

1. Most publishers aren't interested in making niche games - the potential returns are too small to interest them. This forces devs off the PC.

2. Are we happy to cede entire genres to the pirates as no-go zones? I'm not much into shooters but I quite like the occasional story-driven action game. It's not a healthy market if entire genres are excluded purely (or largely) because of pirates.

[kalniel]

I think that's unfair stereotyping you're doing there, I doubt Shamus is a pirate, but even so: it doesn't matter who gives it bad press. Bad word of mouth is bad word of mouth. Sorry, I really mean forums where I have some kind of administrative role. I wasn't saying everyone who complains about DRM pre-release was a pirate, just that there's a much stronger correlation between the complainers and pirates than between complainers and non-pirates. I'm not sure how visible that data is to the general public because most of the forums actively remove anything associated with illegal activities. The number of people who come and complain on even the publishers forums about the game they've just pirated is quite amazing too :p

But yeah, any bad word of mouth is bad, especially in an internet era where it takes only a few seeds to build up momentum. I know of people who are quite deliberate in the seeding of bad words simply because they weren't able to easily pirate a game, or even because they've been banned from a forum for their activities - you can control it on your own boards but it's frustrating when they take it to others.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

just that there's a much stronger correlation between the complainers and pirates than between complainers and non-pirates.

Politely put this way I think it is right.

I'm no pirate at all; I don't even need to, I see no sense in it, consiodering the low prices of games I find in "budget zones" and in second-hand shops and flea markets.

I don't need to pirate, because the prices of budget versions are fairly low. All I need is patience.

But what bugs me is that I must alkways have a CD in the drive while playing. Or a DVD. Which means that I would have to have 10+ drives in my PC considering the amount of games I have currently installed.

But I can only play one at a time, because I have only ONE CD-ROM drive and since the beginning of this month ONE DVD drive.

So, I feel kind of limited.

But I think I'll take the code-wheel out of my Ankh box and play it without the CD, then. Plus, NWN1 with the latest patch doesn't need the CD either.

*sigh* Those where the times when I couzld play Commander Keen freely ... I still have it installed ... But even then, pirating was an issue ...

I sttill have a disquette of an Blues Brothers Jump & Run game somewhere which also had a copy protection. You couldn't play the game without the disj in the drive.

Some things never change.


Oh, and I just had an inspiration: Maybe DRM is a bit like the key you need in order to drive your car ? ;)

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Just fopr the record: I don't know how it is elsewhere, but here in Germany PC gaming magazines almost every month have an older PC game on their magazine-disk.

This is also a very cheap way to get games here.

So, I don't see any need to pirate games at all - from the price point.
All needed is patience.

(Which could on the other hand mean that pirates have a notorious lack of patience.)

[kalniel]

But what bugs me is that I must alkways have a CD in the drive while playing. Or a DVD. Which means that I would have to have 10+ drives in my PC considering the amount of games I have currently installed.

But I can only play one at a time, because I have only ONE CD-ROM drive and since the beginning of this month ONE DVD drive.

So, I feel kind of limited.

So are you happy now that you can just buy a digital version of a game and not need the CD in the drive anymore? It seems to me we're in quite a good position now because we can get the digital version if we don't want to worry about keeping CDs in the drive/loosing media etc, or if we don't have an internet connection we can go with the CD version.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Well, the point is - yes, digital versions of games allow the player to play a game without the need for a CD or a DVd in any drive ...

... On the other hand I have the problem that a digital version of a game is far two insecure for me, in two points :

- If the harddisk crashes, then the game is gone. Am I allowed to make a copy of it ? Most certainly not.

In general, I fear that downloaded games are more easily lost than non-downloaded versions. I prefer something physical - disks.

- I don't buy online, because I don't use credit cards or other online payment methods. Too insecure for my taste.

You might call this paranoia, I don't care. Maybe I've read too many security reports in the last years.

[fatBastard()]

Well, the point is - yes, digital versions of games allow the player to play a game without the need for a CD or a DVd in any drive ...

... On the other hand I have the problem that a digital version of a game is far two insecure for me, in two points :

- If the harddisk crashes, then the game is gone. Am I allowed to make a copy of it ? Most certainly not.

In general, I fear that downloaded games are more easily lost than non-downloaded versions. I prefer something physical - disks.

- I don't buy online, because I don't use credit cards or other online payment methods. Too insecure for my taste.

You might call this paranoia, I don't care. Maybe I've read too many security reports in the last years.

Well, if you purchase via Steam, the worst that could happen is that you would have to download your games again. Meaning, that your portfolio of games are registered at Steam to your Steam account so even if your hard drive dies, you still have access to your games once you have installed the steam client on your new disk and logged in to Steam.

I understand the need to have a physical item at hand when doing a purchase, but I'm a bit weird that way since I'm a collector.

However, if an alternative to a physical disk (and the hassle of needing the disk in the drive in order to start the game) is available to you yet you choose not to take advantage of said alternative then I think it a bit unfair to blame the publishers for whatever CP schemes they choose to put on the physical disks.

[kalniel]

... On the other hand I have the problem that a digital version of a game is far two insecure for me, in two points :

- If the harddisk crashes, then the game is gone. Am I allowed to make a copy of it ? Most certainly not. I don't know of any digital download scheme that doesn't allow backups. Steam, Metaboli etc. all allow backups. Which is not usually the case for physical media versions.

In general, I fear that downloaded games are more easily lost than non-downloaded versions. I prefer something physical - disks. I'm getting confused now :p You want something physical.. but you don't want to ever use that physical thing in your computer?

- I don't buy online, because I don't use credit cards or other online payment methods. Too insecure for my taste.

You might call this paranoia, I don't care. Maybe I've read too many security reports in the last years.*shrugs* I'd urge you to petition your government representative to suggest some better protections for you then. Fraud does happen, but if your country has the right protections it won't cost you, the consumer, a penny.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I'm getting confused now :p You want something physical.. but you don't want to ever use that physical thing in your computer?

Maybe your picture of how I think becomes a little bit clearer when you read this thread ? http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2602

[kalniel]

Maybe your picture of how I think becomes a little bit clearer when you read this thread ? http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2602

Nope :p (Unless it was the comment about having too much coffee ;) )

While I'm a big fan of Ultima I don't really get how it applies to a discussion about physical game media as an optional means of copyright protection. As we said before, if you don't want to use physical media then you get the digital download version. If you have to have physical media (just to look at? I don't know) then buy both versions.

PS some of the statements about publishers in that thread make me very angry with their inaccuracy, but I guess that's their own fault for not employing people to spin out the correct information to 'passionate' gamers. Not that they can afford that, but hey.

[Ionstormsucks]

Just fopr the record: I don't know how it is elsewhere, but here in Germany PC gaming magazines almost every month have an older PC game on their magazine-disk.

This is also a very cheap way to get games here.

So, I don't see any need to pirate games at all - from the price point.
All needed is patience.

(Which could on the other hand mean that pirates have a notorious lack of patience.)

Believe me, money DOES play a role. There is a lot of empirical evidence which proves that there is a direct correlation between income inequality and piracy rate. Of course you a right: people simply could wait, but then there are other aspects which influence people's behavior. What is quite interesting is that there are several studies that came to the conculsion that software piracy is a middle class crime.
I can recommend "Music Piracy and Crime Theory" by Sameer Hinduja. The book deals indepth with the reasons that motivate people in pirating stuff. There is a lot of psychology involved, things which you would not necessarily, especially not as someone who does not pirate.