I don't like Planescape Torment. Is there something wrong with me? [Archive]

Piglet's Ghost

July 1st, 2008, 03:01

I don't know why I've never played this before. I never had much interest in it I guess, but after almost a decade of hearing about PST's greatness I decided to fire it up (I got it off gametap).

The words dull and cliché come to mind when looking at the environment. Junk, blood, zombies, and more junk. Don't use too much of your imagination guys. Was it necessary to put all this crap on the screen so you can't tell what anything is? It's not just the environment that's bad, the UI and menu screens are worse. I try to avoid changing weapons and reading letters because I don't want to wrestle with the disgusting inventory system. Unfortunately, this leaves me with no safe zone, since in addition to the UI the levels were also designed by monkeys. Trying to navigate Sigil is about as fun as driving my head through a wall.

Yes, I know graphics and UI aren't what makes RPGs, but they sure help. What makes RPGs is the story, characters, the hero's struggle, and the choices. I heard about how Torment had all these great characters in this intelligent storyline containing an absurd amount of choices the player can make. Well, the floating skull has personality for all of about five seconds in the very beginning. The only thing that seperates him from the rest of the walking information kiosks is that he calls you chief. What about the other characters? I'm not seeing any kind of individuality. They might as well be Bethesda NPCs, albeit with simpler names.

Conversations, the "selling point" of PST, turn out to be the same old dialog tree fishing with the same old questions. It doesn't seem like you can act in any way other than how the computer wants you to. In fact, quite a few times I've been given an entire paragraph of information to respond with, and it's the only option. At least the other Infinity games gave you superficial choices.

I almost forgot to mention my thoughts on the story. I will as soon as I find one. No one seems to care about anything, and the game certainly isn't trying to make me care about it either.

I must be missing something.

DeepO

July 1st, 2008, 04:04

Based on some of the content of your post, my answer to your question would be yes.

Gorath

July 1st, 2008, 05:57

Welcome to our forum! :)

PS:T also didn´t grab me. I played it for an afternoon and never returned.

Did you play it with the resolution mod? Maybe things get better in high-res. ;)

Prime Junta

July 1st, 2008, 07:29

Konjad

July 1st, 2008, 07:41

PS:T has lots of things wrong with it, in particular the gameplay sucks like a tornado and the character classes are unbalanced to the point of unplayability, but... lack of imagination? Lack of story? Boring characters? Yeah, there's definitely something wrong with you.

I agree. Something is definitely wrong ;)

Piglet's Ghost, how long did you play? I also found the game kinda sucks at the beginning, but after 3-4 hours of play I loved that game. Maybe it's same with you? Perhaps you should just play more to "feel" the game?

GothicGothicness

July 1st, 2008, 08:00

The gameplay and UI sucks, I agree 100%, and if you don't like to read tons of text, instead of playing a game, do not bother. But if you do enjoy to read the story is full of exciting twists and turns and interesting characters. I do think you did not play long enough to discover it yet.

Maylander

July 1st, 2008, 09:07

Hey, and welcome to the forums!

Here's the way I see it, PS:T has the best writing in any RPG:
- Some of the characters later on, such as Raven, are amazing.
- The story, when you get the hang of it, is also rock solid.
- There are loads of quests with meaningful choices, instead of just good/bad.
- Quite a few bizarre and original locations.

However, other than that, BG2 is superior in pretty much every way. The gameplay, interface, graphics, sound quality etc is all better in BG2, which is why I hold it as my fav. RPG instead of PS:T, despite PS:T having better writing.

purpleblob

July 1st, 2008, 09:26

Nothing wrong with you. I also dislike PS:T. Too much texts. By the end of first few days, I just selected random options because I got so sick of reading. Not much combat at all either.

And I agree with Maylander about BG2. Perhaps one of the reasons I don't find PS:T that great is because I've played it AFTER playing BG2.

Konjad

July 1st, 2008, 10:18

And I agree with Maylander about BG2. Perhaps one of the reasons I don't find PS:T that great is because I've played it AFTER playing BG2.

It's not that, I played it after BG2 and I think PST is much better.
But Gothicness is right - if you don't like to read - don't play. Because most important part of the game are dialogues.

kalniel

July 1st, 2008, 10:28

Yes the beginning sucks. You have to use your imagination and try and empathise with the characters, once you do that and get further into the game it picks up, and you can forgive what in today's age must seem terrible graphics and UI.

txa1265

July 1st, 2008, 11:25

Personally I wouldn't say that any part of PS:T 'sucks' ... but then perhaps I have played too many games for which 'suck' is a fitting description ...

But I got no flavor from your post about what you *do* like ... I mean if you have been playing Dragon Quest VIII and Final Fantasy games for ages and heard you should try PS:T ... perhaps you just aren't ready for the whole style ... I dunno.

Dhruin

July 1st, 2008, 11:35

You're more than entitled to dislike PS:T but little you said jibes with reality, so I can only assume you've barely started. Yes, sometimes you might have only one choice in dialogue but replay it or try it with different characters / stats / choices and you'll see it's much more complex than any other Infinity game.

Ask people who have finished what PS:T is about and then ask them what BG2 is about.

No imagination? Can't understand that at all.

Alrik Fassbauer

July 1st, 2008, 12:07

I just loved PS:T because of the long texts ... But I don't like the graphics in it, at all. They're too dark and often too morbide to my taste.

But I think I'm sick anyway in that I prefer light, bright colours in any fantasy game. ;)

blatantninja

July 1st, 2008, 14:25

I'm probably going to give it a whirl after I'm done with my current BG2 run. After hearing so much, and being such a fan of infinity game, I figure I should.

I'm not sure if I will like all the reading or not. I remember when Siege of Avalon came out and it was tagged "Played any good books lately?" I thought the idea was great, but when I played it, I just couldn't get into it. Maybe I've just gotten used to less text to read. I find in BG2, when there are long things to read (like the descriptions on items or the various books), I just have no interest. Even the books that tell you how to do something (like the rituals for honoring the sun god), I just skim them enough to do whatever I need to do.

Maybe I'll enjoy reading more when it's more of a focus of the game, maybe not.

kalniel

July 1st, 2008, 16:03

I think you will - the text is better than just reading the generic lore books of BG2.

magerette

July 1st, 2008, 16:23

I'm replaying it at the moment and it does indeed have a lot of text and a lot of (manual, i.e., not cinematic) character interaction. If you're used to games that go to a cutscene with cinematic dialogue every time a plot point is made, you may find this a bit cumbersome at first, sort of like the difference between an automatic transmission on a sedan compared to a stick on a sportscar. You get a lot more control and involvement in the driving experience with the latter, but if all you want is transportation (going from point a to point b as easily as possible) then maybe you might prefer the automatic methods that are common in more recent games.

@ blatantninja--I think you might enjoy this game--it's nothing if not party-oriented, and one of the few games where I actively enjoy the NPC's and their relationships--that is, I wouldn't want to roll my own party in PS:T or go solo. You'd just miss too much on your own.

Piglet's Ghost

July 1st, 2008, 16:34

Don't misunderstand, I love reading. My favorite part of the game has been the little descriptions they've given everything. What's keeping me at bay is that I just cannot seem to empathize with any of the characters and the lack of any real choices, not to mention all the information dispensing.

Maybe the beginning is just a bad start and I need to give it more time. In that case any idea where I should stick my stats?

Just for the record, I do play JRPGs, but I also play CRPGs. Arcanum and Icewind Dale are probably my favorites. Just for comparison, when you start Arcanum, you're introduced to a fairly generic plot. However, Virgil is a quirky character and Joachim is interesting just by his note ("Oh, I dispached of these fellows easily and left their bodies here to rot. Meet me in Tarant!"). At the crash site there's Behringo's wily spirit trying to pit you up against the old wizard. In Shrouded Hills the Constable will take care of things "uh... tomorrow" while the Doc is a no-nonsense cowboy. Rizzette is Rizzette. Jongle has his magic vs technology problem. This is all in the first two hours of playing.

It also is worth mentioning that Troika doesn't overload you with information about Tarant vs Cumbria, the dwarves, or any other huge plot points. It gets you into the game and interested in the world, and then lets you discover things.

magerette

July 1st, 2008, 16:53

Stat-wise, Wisdom is your most important option.It determines how much experience you get from quests, how many memories you can retreive and many of your dialogue choices. Since some haven't played yet:

If you are making a mage, WIS(18) is followed by Intelligence(18). Charisma shouldn't be ignored, but Wis & Int will get you most dialogue options with a CHA of 12-14. If you're making a Fighter, WIS(18),INT(15) STR(9), CON(9) and DEX(11) are all important and CHA of 13 at least--there are some options for raising it later. Str and Con are less important as this is not a combat heavy game, and you'll usually have at least two excellent fighters in your party to front for you.

You'll be a fighter at first regardless, but IMO the mage option is a lot of fun if you like spellcasters. Thief is supposed to be the least interesting choice, but it can be done.

In the early game, talk to every zombie, talk to Mort and have him read your scars out loud to you, and try to understand that you can't die permanently, and every time you "die" and are reborn, you lose part of yourself, your past and your identity. There's a plot here equal to Arcanum's(also one of my favorite games as well), honest. :)

Konjad

July 1st, 2008, 19:09

Well, actually I think you should set stats like that: INT 18 WIS 18 CHA 12 STR 9 DEX 9 and CON 9, no matter what class u are playing. I always loved to play mage because of great spells effects (some spells even have their own cutscenes) and it's best choice in that game, I think. You can join good fighters (Vhailor, Dak'kon) anyway, Anna is a good thief and so on - no matter what class will you choose, you'll have all classes in team anyway ;) And you can change your class in game, so if you won't like being mage it's not a problem to change your class. There are not much fights like in another games, so you don't really need STR, DEX or CON.

Prime Junta

July 1st, 2008, 20:22

@ blatantninja--I think you might enjoy this game--it's nothing if not party-oriented, and one of the few games where I actively enjoy the NPC's and their relationships--that is, I wouldn't want to roll my own party in PS:T or go solo. You'd just miss too much on your own.

Yup. I think I'm still in love with Fall-from-Grace. Don't tell my wife.

blatantninja

July 1st, 2008, 20:34

Yeah, my wife thinks I'm in love with Arie from Baldur's Gate 2.

purpleblob

July 2nd, 2008, 01:27

My bf thinks I'm in love with Anomen lol :D

Prime Junta

July 2nd, 2008, 08:33

Anomen??? O_O

purpleblob

July 2nd, 2008, 09:15

what's wrong with Anomen? :O

Zaleukos

July 2nd, 2008, 09:22

Anomen??? O_O

My gf also had an affair with him during our MP adventure across Amn, but I never feared anything as she summed him up as "he is gross".:D

Prime Junta

July 2nd, 2008, 10:01

Um... other than that he's a pretentious, humorless, small-minded prat with an inferiority complex the size of Gibraltar?

purpleblob

July 2nd, 2008, 10:07

I actually found Anomen quite sweet. He has his faults but that makes him more human and touching.

Prime Junta

July 2nd, 2008, 10:12

Ooookay.... I guess...

/backs away slowly with no sudden moves

purpleblob

July 2nd, 2008, 10:16

:P we are sooo off topic lol :D

Zaleukos

July 2nd, 2008, 10:58

Um... other than that he's a pretentious, humorless, small-minded prat with an inferiority complex the size of Gibraltar?

She was referring to his coming on to the female PC in a pretty pathetic, but then none of the other romances is particularly impressive either... As for the rest of his character he is actually somewhat amusing if you guide him to the right choice at a certain point in the game and team him up with the right people. On the whole he was far less annoying than commie Nalia or whiny Aerie:)

EDIT: Coming to think of it he is probably the only NPC whose character can develop along different paths...

purpleblob

July 2nd, 2008, 11:06

nope! Viccy also can develop along different path providing male PC is romancing her :)

Zaleukos

July 2nd, 2008, 12:22

Ok, I never tried that as the evil path is so artificial (randomly saying that "i rather kill you instead" is not evil, it is stupid, and you get good deed points way too often) that I find it hard to play.

Prime Junta

July 2nd, 2008, 12:55

One of my pet peeves in RPG's. Take Mask of the Betrayer, for example: in my last play-through, I willingly devoured the spirit of an ancient, powerful, and majestic spirit and then used his withered husk to create an undead construct from a thousand screaming souls trapped in an ancient crematorium; I tricked a perfectly harmless and innocent trader into getting eaten alive by a tribe of cannibals, then picked through the bones for loot; I condemned the soul of a wise and good old woman to eternal torment by commanding my undead construct to absorb her soul into its multitude and so force her to servitude; finally, I devoured the soul of a suffering and wronged character because I wanted her power.

And... I ended the game as Chaotic Good (0/100), which got me a wonderfully rhapsodic description about the peace, warmth, and serenity that reigns in the deepest recesses of my soul. Why? Because every use of my Eternal Rest feat (which I used to sate my hunger, because it would not increase my Craving) and my Channel Energy feat (which I used to heal myself and my companions/servants in order to win battles) bumped my alignment 2 points towards Good. That's just... wrong.

KazikluBey

July 2nd, 2008, 18:57

Krat

July 3rd, 2008, 07:39

I had a hard time getting into the game a couple of years ago too but when I did, I loved it. Before I started playing it I had heard a lot about the game and was trying to rush it, trying to get to know what that supposedly great story is and everything and ended up not playing it for awhile. Months later I tried again and for some reason I got sucked in that time.

Maybe for you the game is just too old. Planescape doesn't stand the test of time too well. It's like Aliens vs Predator 1. I can say that the game scared the crap out of me the most but if you play it now it's a walk in the park because the enemies are a bunch of pixels.

I just played Sanitarium the other day. For everyone who liked Planescape Torment I recommend it. Dark, twisted, funny and fantastic. You'll love it. But be sure to get the patch if you play it.

Maylander

July 3rd, 2008, 09:10

Hey Krat, welcome to the forums.

I had a very similar experience myself - my first time playing the game was anything but successful. A friend of mine let me loan his game CDs and told me it was an amazing game, so I expected to be blown away immediately. It didn't happen. Not even close. Ended up stopping after a short while, but gave it another try later on, and loved it.

I think patience is important when playing PS:T - it's just not going to grab you the way certain games do (unless you have a thing for Morte or TNO, ofc), untill you reach a certain point.

Piglet's Ghost

July 4th, 2008, 01:07

I have got to be doing something wrong. Everywhere I go it's fight after fight. Then, I'll complete a quest I had no idea I even accepted, and divulge information I didn't know I held. I put everything into STR and CON to stop from dying all the time, and my dialog options haven't really changed from when I had everything in INT, WIS, and CHAR.

This game is boring me to death. It's giving me no reason to like any of the characters. Before I drop PST completely, where can I find Pharod? I think he's somewhere in the crypts below the trash city, but I can't bring myself to fight anymore of those damn monsters unless I know it will take me somewhere.

magerette

July 4th, 2008, 01:51

This walkthrough (http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/187975/7964) has a lot of spoilers but if you want to get a bit of a gameplan, you might find it helpful. I usually use it after I've gone through an area once just to make sure I haven't missed anything. (I usually have ;) )

One tip--try to use Mort's taunt ability for the thugs and so forth--they pile on him with his better armor class and resistances, and you can hit them from behind without taking the brunt of the attack. Also, I spent almost all my gold in the early game on having at least 5 healing potions at all times--(the witch in Ragpickers Square sells them, and can also train you in magery.)

Anyway, it sounds like the game's getting on your nerve endings--I have the same problem every time I try to play Mask of the Betrayer. It just may not be the right time to play it for you.

Piglet's Ghost

July 4th, 2008, 02:17

I take hits better than Morte and I regenerate health. I also do way more damage than him at a faster rate (I should also note that Morte can't hurt certain enemies like wererats). Speaking of receiving attacks, Dakkon is as frail as a child. I keep him away from most fights because it's a pain to continually revive him (making everyone immortal takes something out of the experience, I think). Both my party members are borderline useless.

magerette

July 4th, 2008, 03:53

You're having a very different experience with the game than myself, so I'll let you chart your own course.

Moriendor

July 4th, 2008, 10:31

There's nothing wrong with anyone who doesn't like PS:T. In fact, you're just proving to have good taste *ducks* :biggrin: .

The game never really grabbed me either. The extremely clichéd amnesiac backstory was already boring before you really got into it. The fed-ex quests that made up the first hours of gameplay also bored me to death. I definitely prefer it when games start with a bang or at least try to generate a slight level of interest in you in some way about what might be lying ahead of you but PS:T totally failed in that regard.
The only thing that kept me going was my curiosity of exploring this strange world. Which is/was about the only thing I liked about the game. The setting and art direction is/was superb and some of the NPCs were about half interesting, too.

Still, I gave up at one point when the Infinity engine started to get on my nerves yet again (like it did in every IE game sooner or later). The small, claustrophobic environments, bad pathfinding and loading screens every few feet ruined it for me.
I also never really liked the excessive amounts of text. It seemed like at least half of the text was usually "wasted" on describing a scene or a setting. Call me weird but in a video game, I somehow expect stuff to be shown or displayed and not described. If I wanted to read a book, I would. No, really. I would.

So, all in all I don't quite get why PS:T is held in such high regard either but then that's just the fate of us illiterate, ADD dumbfucks who actually dare to like more action-y, open world, 3D games (like Gothic) that the elitists don't like ;) .

Maylander

July 4th, 2008, 11:20

I love Gothic, but I also love PS:T, BG etc.

Also, TNO starts out pretty buff compared to the other party members, and will remain the top killer if you stick to being a fighter. However, if you want to get the most out of the game, you need to play with Wisdom as the main stat, since it not only gives tons of options, it also increases your experience gain. If you play a Wisdom/Intellect based mage, and use it to unlock Dak'kons best skills, he turns into a killing machine - much like Soulafein the NPC mod in BG2 (fighter/mage).

But hey, PS:T is a very unique game, and certainly one of those hate/love games: Either you're sucked in by the story and the characters you meet, or you get lost and feel like you're playing a crap version of Baldur's Gate.

Alrik Fassbauer

July 4th, 2008, 12:18

Piglet's Ghost

July 4th, 2008, 14:35

I don't want to rag on the amount of text in PST because not only would that be hypocritical for me personally, it would probably lead to the impression that the Blizzard/GPG/Bethesda are doing the "right" thing.

magerette

July 4th, 2008, 16:32

*snip*

Still, I gave up at one point when the Infinity engine started to get on my nerves yet again (like it did in every IE game sooner or later). The small, claustrophobic environments, bad pathfinding and loading screens every few feet ruined it for me...

So, all in all I don't quite get why PS:T is held in such high regard either but then that's just the fate of us illiterate, ADD dumbfucks who actually dare to like more action-y, open world, 3D games (like Gothic) that the elitists don't like ;) .

Good to see you back around, Moriendor. Even if I totally disagree with you. ;) Btw, one of the really great things about replaying it on a modern machine as I'm doing right now, is that annoying loadscreen thing now takes about five seconds or less. (I too hate the Infinity Engine.)

But there's nothing incompatible with liking PS:T and liking more action-y games for me. I also enjoy more than one type of cuisine--I wouldn't want to only play games like Torment any more than I would want to eat Chinese take-out for every meal. :)

Piglet's Ghost

July 5th, 2008, 15:39

I reached Pharod and this game just got a whole lot more interesting. Unfortunately, I blew through the first part, so I'm completely lost and need to start a new game.

Talk about your bad design decisions. The game doesn't try to grab hold of you in the beginning even though there is a great story behind it. There is an enormous amount of random enemies despite the combat system being horrible. Playing through the intro with different stat distributions leads you to believe that INT, WIS, and CHAR don't do anything. But hey, now I know there's at least something worth playing for.

aries100

July 5th, 2008, 16:20

I recently discovered in my self that PS:T is the seemingly *only* game that can claim to be an "intellectual stimulus" for me - as a whole artwork.

This led me to the thought that games are not directed to the intellectual potion of a human being at all.

I mean, gamers just wanna have fun, no thinking, please !
Blizzard and Gas Powered Games are at the fore front of this believe-system !

So ... I seriously wonder whether we are standing at a crossroad. Seriously. For the whole PC gaming.

The one road goes into the direction of mass-catering games. Blizzard, Gas Powered Games and all who follow them. And follow them they do; because this path provides the most of all profits.

The other road goes into the direction of the intellectuality. Artworks and thought-provokers which are appealimg to the thinking part of our selves.

It's like comparing tabloid papers vs. the Science scientific magazine. Or the New Scientist.

I sense we are standing at that crossroad. Dragon Age might be the last one which goes into the "intellectual direction", if at all.

Because the "gaming business" has become a "serious business", everyone folows the path of the most profits - because with products intellectual challenging / demanding, there can be only very, very few profits.

It's as if a few people go into a Museum of Fine art, meanwhile the masses go to McBurgers instead.

These two directions haven't been acknowledged by the "industry" at all - simply because this two-way thought-model doesn't go into the heads of people who are rather traditionally and maybe even stubbornly sticking to the economical-oriented thought pattern - in which high profits attract all of the moths (like light attracts moths in general).

True, true -- but if we compare the video game industry to the movie industry the intellectual and thought provoking movies are still being made - today. George Clooney did it with Good night & Good Luck and Syriana, and many other studios backs 'independent' studios in which (small time) movie directors can do their own thing i.e. make games that cater to maybe only 1 million people worldwide or 5 million people worldwide instead of the 40-50 million people or 100 million people worldwide.

To me, it seems like John Riccitiello, CEO of EA, has seen this trend and is supporting it. There are at least myabe 1,5 million to 2,5 million hardcore gamers out there today. They need games, too. Hence, Dragon Age...and other games like that. So what you do is to make game like Mass Effect for the masses - and a game lile Dragon Age for the more hardcore fans.

Now, even I like Morrowind over Oblivion, I think there is somewhat wrong with some of the interface in Morrowind. And to me, making an easier, more intuitive interface isn't about dumbing a game down. It is about making the game's controls more accesible to the player. And that, to me, is always a good thing :)

Dumbing down games is to take away player's choices completely, and as in the case with Oblivion, just let the player be a jack of all trades, meaning that a fighter can be head of the mage's guild O_O

On the other hand, Morrowind seemed to much more confusing to me, and probably many other players. You had 4-6 guilds, at least 3 houses; it could be difficult to know which quests to do and if you did this quest that meant you couldn't do that quest. Don't get me wrong, I just love that the game cuts you off
from doing anything you want to do in your first playthrough. That's there is a consequence for every action and choice you make in the game. But sometimes, it can get a little overwhelming - especially when you need a walkthrough to complete the game.

With the succes of Mask of the Betrayer and hopefully, Storm of Zehir, the publishers will see that there is a market for hardcore games out there :)

Hopefully...

PS:

And no, there isn't anything wrong with you if you don't like Torment. Each has a different taste than the next one. I don't like most FPS games, but I'm inclined to like Metal Gear Solid and Lost Planet because you just don't run around shooting things and blowing up monsters. You actually have to think in these games, too. Not every game is right for every person.

kalniel

July 5th, 2008, 22:59

Dumbing down games is to take away player's choices completely, and as in the case with Oblivion, just let the player be a jack of all trades, meaning that a fighter can be head of the mage's guild O_O That's the opposite of dumbing down then - the game isn't taking away any choices and lets you make the decision whether it's right for your character to be the head of the guild or not. By your definition a dumbed down game would restrict choice and say that only a mage could head the guild, taking that decision away from you.

Games as intellectual stimulus.. that's probably another major topic, but I don't think any RPG is particularly stimulating of the intellect, even the most hardcore one. The only games I've ever found remotely intellectually stimulating are the very first Myst game, and some of the more complex strategy games, maybe even gas powered games Supreme Commander (but that can't be if they're just catering to the masses with that one I guess). Building games I find more intellectual than playing them, and in that respect CRPGs do particularly well at also providing tools for players to do just that.

Maylander

July 6th, 2008, 00:26

Indeed Piglet, the first time I played PS:T - as I said previous in this thread - was a complete failure. I felt as though I was randomly running around, talking to pointless NPCs and killing stuff I had no reason for killing. It does get better though.

Gladi

July 6th, 2008, 12:27

aries100

July 6th, 2008, 13:21

Bright day
This thread has made me really sad. I mean it is great that we have nowadays all those great 3D objects and great textures and voice actors for everyline and in-engine cutscenes and not just boxes of texts telling you what amazings thigns are going on... But it hurts me to see that people are daunted by effort to understand earlier games. I mean what exactly is wrong with Planescape's UI? It may look like an ass, but it is all there and clickable. And what exactly is wrong with inventory? I mean it is bunch of boxes with (admittedly not very nice) character image. I much prefer it to systems like Stonekeep or Oblivion had.

There is nothing wrong with the UI in Planescape. In fact, the UI for the Infinity Engine is one of the best UI's I have seen in avery long time, including some newer games such as NWN2 and Oblicion etc. had.

I, for one, was talking more generally...

I don't know, Kalniel, if we have different opinions on this, but somehow I just feel it is wrong that my fighter character (in oblivion) can be head of the mage's guild and then also become head of the other guilds in Oblivion. I don't mid a fighter being head of the fighter's guild (there's a battlemage option afterall in Oblivion). I just mind that when you become the head of the mage's guild, you can become head of the thieves guild as well - or even the dark brotherhood.
I mean, the dark brotherhood's quest and the fighter's guild's quest should and ought to be mutually exclusive - imo - of course...

Piglet's Ghost

July 6th, 2008, 16:11

Bright day
This thread has made me really sad. I mean it is great that we have nowadays all those great 3D objects and great textures and voice actors for everyline and in-engine cutscenes and not just boxes of texts telling you what amazings thigns are going on... But it hurts me to see that people are daunted by effort to understand earlier games. I mean what exactly is wrong with Planescape's UI? It may look like an ass, but it is all there and clickable. And what exactly is wrong with inventory? I mean it is bunch of boxes with (admittedly not very nice) character image. I much prefer it to systems like Stonekeep or Oblivion had.

I loved the UI of the other Infinity games. I have nothing against the graphic quality - it's the overall design I hate wrestling with. Still, PST's interface isn't as bad as Oblivion or Dungeon Siege.

As for the rest of your post, it doesn't look like you read anything in this thread other than the title. 3D, textures, voice acting, and cutscenes were not even mentioned. In fact, the text descriptions are listed as one of the good things. Go back and read the posts (or at least read the first one) before you start spewing any more nonsense.

kalniel

July 6th, 2008, 16:46

I don't know, Kalniel, if we have different opinions on this, but somehow I just feel it is wrong that my fighter character (in oblivion) can be head of the mage's guild and then also become head of the other guilds in Oblivion. Well why did you make your character become head of the guild if you felt it was wrong? Obviously my opinion is different to some other people's, but to me it looks like everyone is moaning about the freedom to transcend class boundaries as if it's some kind of restriction, which doesn't make sense to me. TES has always been about the freedom to make the kind of character you want and to play the way you want - they had to remove restrictions to enable you to do that so now the emphasis is more on the player to take some responsibility in playing out the role of the character as they see fit.

If you want a game that restricts you to traditional class choices or that holds your hand and says X must do this and Y must do this then fine, there are plenty (the majority) that allow that, but to say a game that doesn't do that is more restrictive doesn't make any sense to me. If I want to play a character who is a chivalrous knight I can, by making the choices the character would make. If I want to play a backstabbing assassin I can do that also, like in many games. But what if I want to play a character who's a good two shoes by day but nasty assassin by night? I can do that in Oblivion, but in few other games. Maybe I want to play a character who starts off nice but eventually sickens of the task and falls to evil. Maybe the other way around. Oblivion gives me the tools and opportunities I need to play my own characters stories in a way that few other games manage. The difference is it's up to me to make my own restrictions and choices, rather than the game. But I wouldn't have it any other way.

Gladi

July 6th, 2008, 18:42

I loved the UI of the other Infinity games. I have nothing against the graphic quality - it's the overall design I hate wrestling with. Still, PST's interface isn't as bad as Oblivion or Dungeon Siege.

As for the rest of your post, it doesn't look like you read anything in this thread other than the title. 3D, textures, voice acting, and cutscenes were not even mentioned. In fact, the text descriptions are listed as one of the good things. Go back and read the posts (or at least read the first one) before you start spewing any more nonsense.

Well, thanks for not following in my footsteps and lowereing yourself to ad hominem attacks, good to see You keeping this deabte clean.

Indeed the first few sentences were a general rant. These are said times whem a man cannot have his rant on the internets. Though it is curious that you don't hate the graphics- I hated them back when the game was published.

Though, what exactly is your gripe with inventory or UI? What are the differences in inventory between other IE games and PS:T?

I agree that I was not of fan of the type of combat interface PS:T has until TOEE, where I personally feel it is much better done. Though both inside and outside combat acess to everything is clearly visible and well documented in manual. Does it feel strange? Yes, but every new system does at first, so unless you qualify what you find lacking bit more, I am afraid I can't offer my two cents.

Sigil- hmm problem of navigation. That is curious. When NO first enters the hive outside of Mortuary, there are two exists on that map W and S. If he goes W the zone there has three exists E, W and S and other zons have similar set-up. All together you have six Sigil zones avaible to you at the beginning and by the time you open new you get an option to fast travel between zones like in other IE games.

Morte- curious that you mention only him, there are many characters with better wrought stories. But even his story has a pay-off, hmm... like in the last quarter of the game. I do not know exactly how far you have played (though not that far pointing by some other comments), but in the beginning of the game, he could make you think like that. Maybe you have not seen everything about him yet? Things that would explain his behaviour?

Conversations- Some are like what you said, some are not. Yes the game does not have "new revolutionary" dialogue system like some "other games". If you though it has I am sorry. Indeed it does not have anything beyond normal dialogue trees.

Piglet's Ghost

July 7th, 2008, 02:10

A man cannot have a rant on the internet? What internet are you visiting? In the one I'm using, 90% of it is rant material. If you're being sarcastic, nevermind.

As for graphics, I prefer style to polygons - and style is, of course, extremely subjective. My favorite two games visually? Arcanum and Final Fantasy VII. Icewind Dale I comes in a close third.

Torment UI... where to start?
- It's a pain to navigate. There is too much clutter everywhere taking up precious screen real estate. My biggest pet peeve is the over abundance of nestled menus.
- The right click UI shouldn't even exist. Quickslot weapons, spells, and abilities should be placed on the bottom bar for easy access, not in some right click menu that requires you to search vague icons for the menu that actually contains what you want. Quickslot my ass. Every other option offered by the RCUI already exists in better places rendering this thing superfluous at best. Why do I have to go through this just to talk to my party members?
- The character portraits on the bottom are too damn big. The important options are tucked away around a odd oval in the far bottom right corner of the screen. The icons are arranged in an illogical and confusing way.
- Cancel current action. This is accessible in three different places. It shouldn't be accessible in one. It's pointless.
- Those three little icons on each side of the gigantic portraits. They're hard to get too, you can't really tell what they are unless you hover over them, and only two are of any use.

The dialog system is great. No complaints. It's the content that I had a problem with. I like basic dialog trees.

Morte is the only one remotely interesting at this point, so he was mentioned. However, like I said before, I reached Pharod and immediately started to like the storyline. Getting to him was boring work that I was not sure would pay off. Now, knowing that there is a pay off (subconscious distrust of developers, I guess) I restarted and am going back through it, and I'm really enjoying it.

Maylander

July 7th, 2008, 09:27

Keep us posted on your experiences and points of view, it's always interesting to hear about how such old classics work out today.

slam23

July 7th, 2008, 11:48

Hi Piglet,

I'm always compelled to react to threads about PS:T and come to it's defense. But I think a lot of smart people before me showed that it also comes down to a matter of taste. For me it was the best game I played, AFTER I made up my mind that I should approach it as an interactive novel (as I stated in earlier threads on the Watch), instead of the more action-oriented Baldur's Gate series. I just read an interview with Chris Avellone, one of the creators, and it said it contained near 800.000 words, and that would be equal to the total Harry Potter book series. I don't know if that is really true, but that stat is quite amazing and kind of supports my point of view that it's really more "bookish". In that regard it also strikes me as a parallel that a lot of people can't quite get through the first 200-odd pages of Lord of The Rings. Also a shame, because only then you've gotten your first taste of the whole setting, the plot outline and who the main characters are. I found PS:T also to have a rather steep beginning with lots of exposition and "getting used to". And don't worry about the action, you will get plenty of combat before the end....Enjoy your romp, I'm quite envious of people who get to look at it from a completely fresh perspective. The recent wide-screen mod almost made me reach out for the installation CD's :-) But first to finish Mass Effect and Indiana Jones LEGO
Greetings Slam23

purpleblob

July 8th, 2008, 04:45

If I wanted to read a book, I would. No, really. I would.

couldn't agree with you more. 800,000 words?? holy shit. all this talk about PS:T kinda tempted me to replay PS:T to see if it is as horrible as I think it is (since I've only played it once, skipped most of dialogues and relied on walkthrough) but.... I have a feeling I will probably give up within a day again.

GothicGothicness

July 8th, 2008, 06:01

No wounder it didn't pay off in terms of money, imagine how much it costed to write all those words! and localization to other marktes??? the translation costed would be unimaginable.

Piglet's Ghost

July 8th, 2008, 19:59

It seems like I was just looking at PST the wrong way. It's more of an interactive novel. There's not true choices, only illusions, because most boil down to "be generous"/"be a bully" and "do the quest this way"/"skip the quest." You're following a story that's on rails with a few stops at the station so you can stretch your legs (linear sidequests that are in direct relation to the main plot). The main characters cannot die unless the plot dictates it, otherwise they can be easily revived with no ill effects. Combat is shallow, easy, and essentially pointless. You have a host of followers that add themselves automatically and can never leave unless the plot says so.

To tell you the truth, it's more JRPG than CRPG. Even the JRPG cutscenes are there, only in PST you play them out instead of just watching.

However, looking at it in this new way, I am enjoying it. The story and characters are amazing. The backstory is engrossing. I'm soaking up all the information and finding it hard to break away from the game, waiting in anticipation for what's going to happen next.

It's good.

Melvil

July 9th, 2008, 00:55

That's the spirit PG :)

Dhruin

July 9th, 2008, 04:00

I don't broadly disagree with the interactive novel thing but I don't get your standards. I'd argue there are relatively few RPGs that honestly do a better job of offering true choices - most of the genre really boils down to "be generous"/"be a bully" and "do the quest this way"/"skip the quest."

But you say this is like a JRPG, yet right at the beginning, you list IWD as your favourite CRPG. Now I love IWD but no way, no day does it offer any level of choice deeper than PS:T other than creating your own party and a heavier emphasis on combat. I don't understand the definitions you are applying.

Prime Junta

July 9th, 2008, 12:03

@PG, good to hear you've seen the light. I disagree with you about the choices bit, though -- the choices you make, both in your actions and in your character development -- will have a huge effect on the outcome of the story, and your relationships with your party members. That's a far cry from an interactive novel IMO -- even if the game is very wordy and it follows a sequential story arc.

Kayla

July 9th, 2008, 13:16

I loved PS:T. One of the best games, excellent consequences from choices- you had to really think about what would happen. It wasn't just click, click, whatever.

Excellent game and when my first disc was broken by my nephew I could not sleep until I found a replacement.

I usually like more action and less reading with my games, but I cannot fault PS:T.

Piglet's Ghost

July 10th, 2008, 03:13

Eh, maybe I'm wrong. I'm just giving my impression based on my current *limited* experience with the game.

Dasale

September 3rd, 2008, 01:25

Most great novels start to catch you at first page, PST totally failed for me. I didn't played a lot of the game but read some dialogs and never get the feeling to read a great novel. Is all this text really a good novel interactive or not? Is any CRPG can be considered as a good Novel interactive or not?

Beside that the area design is very poor, too repetitive. The same for the action. But yes I couldn't play much of this game, I tried multiple time and always failed because I got deadly bored very fast.

Corwin

September 3rd, 2008, 02:27

I suspect that people for whom English is not their primary language, would find the amount of reading in the game a challenge,

purpleblob

September 3rd, 2008, 12:02

I suspect that people for whom English is not their primary language, would find the amount of reading in the game a challenge,

Amen to that Corwin... let me just say, I've spent about an hour reading conversation between Nameless one and that dude with giant book. What was his name? Something beginning with D.

Maylander

September 3rd, 2008, 12:53

I assume you mean Dhall, the scribe on the 2nd floor of the Mortuary (the first real NPC you meet, except Morte).

Zakhary

September 3rd, 2008, 13:17

So, to wrap everything up and to summarize:
There is (was?) something wrong with you, but the good people of these
forums fixed you! Yay!! :boogie::boogie::dance::dance::party::party:

Benedict

September 3rd, 2008, 15:38

Definitely something wrong with you :p

I think a lot of the enjoyment of the experience depends on the extent to which you visualise things as you read it. For me the writing was good enough that the whole place came alive right from the off. I didn't know where I was or what I was doing or have any investment in the characters around me (which for me only accentuated the whole amnesia feeling for the start) but it was damned interesting exploring.

Less so in the mortuary I guess, but once I got out and about into the Hive it really started to work, the whole area radiated a sense of poverty and helplessness, the sense that everyone there had drifted in through a portal and become trapped and it was full of lost souls struggling to survive in a strange and harsh place really worked for me.

Overall, as someone said, the key thing with planescape is that it was about something. It had a philosophical streak to it that is quite unique for RPGs, there was a sense of exploring my own mind and nature, not simply of exploring a few dungeons and a character class system.

I think the raw material of the game as itself and nothing more could be quite underwhelming. The raw material of the game as a fertile breeding ground for ones own thoughts and imaginations on the other hand is IMO unsurpassed.

blatantninja

September 3rd, 2008, 15:41

Man, I'm getting frustrated just trying to find the game! Been out bid three times in the last week for copies on eBay and they are going for $40+ there!

magerette

September 3rd, 2008, 16:16

Man, I'm getting frustrated just trying to find the game! Been out bid three times in the last week for copies on eBay and they are going for $40+ there!

I special ordered it from here--cost $50 and took about ten days:

NWS Online Store (http://yhst-12000246778232.stores.yahoo.net/pltosobopa.html)

Alrik Fassbauer

September 3rd, 2008, 16:48

The German magazine PC Games had it a few years ago on the mag's disc - even an DVD version !

I don't know whether it is common elsewhere to put whole games (licensed) onto discs, though.

Foss

September 3rd, 2008, 17:49

Bought it on Ebay aswell, several years after it had come out. I had seen it when it did came out, but I think I thought it would just be a BG wannabe and didn't pay it much heed.
I should have though, because I got blown away.
The NPCs, quests and story was just incredible. And to this day I have never identified myself with a chr as much as I identified myself with TNO. To the point when the game ended I sat back with a sad feeling of loss.

Prime Junta

September 3rd, 2008, 20:24

Isn't it available on Gametap (for those of the American persuasion anyway?)

blatantninja

September 3rd, 2008, 20:55

I've never used gametap, but it might be worth it. Of course, you can't apply any of the mods/fix packs.

Dasale

September 4th, 2008, 00:12

I suspect that people for whom English is not their primary language, would find the amount of reading in the game a challenge,
Cough cough, it's a long time ago but I'm almost 100% sure it was translated in my native language.

Dasale

September 4th, 2008, 00:16

Overall, as someone said, the key thing with planescape is that it was about something. It had a philosophical streak to it that is quite unique for RPGs, there was a sense of exploring my own mind and nature...

I think the raw material of the game as itself and nothing more could be quite underwhelming. The raw material of the game as a fertile breeding ground for ones own thoughts and imaginations on the other hand is IMO unsurpassed.
That seems.... just too much!

Dasale

September 4th, 2008, 00:22

I wonder if those that enjoyed so much the story and its depth and the writing quality of the dialogs have read any book that are better?

Dhruin

September 4th, 2008, 01:22

Of course we have. But books are non-interactive linear experiences. In terms of delivering an incredible story in the context of an RPG with some meaningful choices, it's among the best ever made.

Prime Junta

September 4th, 2008, 08:32

I have to say, though, that the writing in PS:T puts it in a category where I really have a hard time ranking things as "better" or "worse." It's one of a kind; there's really nothing to legitimately compare it to. (Somebody novelized it, by the way. That sucks like a tornado. The writing just doesn't work in book form.)

Benedict

September 4th, 2008, 17:03

Definitely hard to compare to a book, those are completely prescribed and the author has so much freedom to build a powerful narrative arc. I found the emerging storyline for planescape amazing though, and to accomplish that when the experience was one I at least partly shaped myself is testament to some pretty impressive writing.

Dasale

September 4th, 2008, 20:55

That's true it's difficult to compare any CRPG to any novel but when people highlight a game almost only through features that could be features of a book I feel it very suspect.

I don't think PST beginning is good, it has many flaw and even the story telling starts like a fat elephant. I really should find back the CD to install the game (is the installer still working?) to speak more of this game. But I'll try anyway.

I remember that in the beginning:
- The game story telling was very heavy on insisting on amnesia. The amnesia thing was breaking everything else and was a failure to setup any suspense and raise any curiosity.
- According to the topic in the beginning, the game should have a dark mood but totally failed to achieve this and this result in a weird artificial mood.
- Characters failed to catch the interest. For the main character the amnesia make this task impossible but even the skull failed this.
- Too many places was like a duplicate of another.
- Fights was quite boring.
- I don't remember any good puzzling.

All of that was only for the beginning but enough to totally stop my attempt to play the game.

I think the difference between people that enjoyed this game and those that didn't is coming from people that succeed to pass through this horrible beginning and those that didn't.

EDIT: Another point is mixing story telling and action. For me that's where a CRPG can compete with a book despite the story telling couldn't. By "action" I mean anything else that isn't pure dialog/text reading. That could be a puzzle to solve, events that happen instead of a bunch of stupid NPC waiting passively your questions, an interesting exploring that mix well exploring with tiny puzzling to progress and story telling. It's also dialogs that mix story telling or background development with pure game information like hints on puzzling, exploration or even fighting or anything mixing practical gaming with story telling. I remember that PST beginning was very poor about all of that.

Mike Frankum

September 4th, 2008, 23:48

Nothing wrong with you - It's all personal. I'm just going back to play it again. I've got a lot of games. If I don't enjoy them, I put them away and play something I do enjoy. Then try again later. Whatever you're doing - HAVE FUN. :juggle:

Benedict

September 5th, 2008, 15:33

- The game story telling was very heavy on insisting on amnesia. The amnesia thing was breaking everything else and was a failure to setup any suspense and raise any curiosity..

I thought the amnesia worked really well myself. Any game you're catapulted somewhere you're unfamiliar with and need to be educated on the setting, having an amnesia dynamic is a good way of dealing with it, and unlike the standard "attacked by bandits and woke up without your memory, but from here on in no more mention of it and lets kill things" crap the amnesia was an integral part of the story throughout the whole game. Finding all those people who knew another version of you, finding out things about other times you woke up and headed off in a different direction being a different person, I thought it was very well layered into the plot. And given the underlying thing that Planescape was "about" it was used well to ask that question.

How do you do the spoiler thing by the way?

Foss

September 5th, 2008, 23:31

How do you do the spoiler thing by the way?

A button just over the text box. Looks like a !

no spoiler here

Dhruin

September 6th, 2008, 00:21

I guess it just isn't for you, Dasale. I thought the amnesia setup was perfect - my character is immortal - I've lived many different lives - but I don't remember how or why? And my quest is so important, I've even tattooed warnings on my body?

Pretty compelling idea to me.

JDR13

September 6th, 2008, 00:23

- The game story telling was very heavy on insisting on amnesia. The amnesia thing was breaking everything else and was a failure to setup any suspense and raise any curiosity.

I agree with Benedict and Dhruin, I thought the amnesia aspect was well done. I don't see how you could claim that it didn't promote suspense or curiosity.

- According to the topic in the beginning, the game should have a dark mood but totally failed to achieve this and this result in a weird artificial mood.

I thought the mood in the beginning was very dark. You wake up in a morgue surrounded by death, with no memory of who you are or how you got there. I do understand how it could also be viewed as "weird" though.

- Characters failed to catch the interest. For the main character the amnesia make this task impossible but even the skull failed this.

If the npcs in Planescape failed to catch your interest, then you are one tough customer...:)

- Too many places was like a duplicate of another..

I strongly disagree, unless you're refering to the color palette.

- Fights was quite boring.

Here's an issue in which I will agree 100%. After playing Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale, the combat in Torment was a snoozfest by comparison. There was very little variety in the way of enemies, as well as very few kinds of weapons and armor. Combat was definitely not PSTs strong point.

- I don't remember any good puzzling.

The entire game was a great puzzle in itself. Although I agree there wasn't an abundance of good puzzles in the sense I think you're refering to. That's not something that the Infinity Engine games were particularly known for.

Prime Junta

September 6th, 2008, 12:44

For once, I agree with JDR on almost every count. The one count where I disagree are the visuals. IMO they were very much a mixed bag. The Morgue was great, parts of the Hive and the Clerk's Ward were great, some of the dungeons were OK, but most of the game past the point when you left Sigil was pretty blah, and, yes, repetitive. It's as if they ran out of time and/or money at some point and then had to fill up a lot of space really fast.

I guess the color palette is a part of it. It was a bit uniformly grimy, and could have done with some more contrast. That would've made the grime stand out more too.

Dasale

September 6th, 2008, 23:38

I agree with Benedict and Dhruin, I thought the amnesia aspect was well done. I don't see how you could claim that it didn't promote suspense or curiosity.If I find back the cd and could install the game I'll investigate this. There's eventually the philosophical questions that just make me laugh and I felt them ridiculous. But well I'm probably unfair, it's a long time ago.

II thought the mood in the beginning was very dark. You wake up in a morgue surrounded by death, with no memory of who you are or how you got there. I do understand how it could also be viewed as "weird" though.
When you talk with a kind skull and with passive skeletons walking there and there how take anything a little seriously and how have that and a dark mood?

If the npcs in Planescape failed to catch your interest, then you are one tough customer...:)Don't forget it's only about the beginning. I don't remember anything quotable there, the skull didn't work well for me, I don't remember any human traits attaching.

I strongly disagree, unless you're refering to the color palette.No, area design. Well decorum is a little repetitive but the problem is more area design quite basic and repetitive.

The entire game was a great puzzle in itself. Although I agree there wasn't an abundance of good puzzles in the sense I think you're refering to. That's not something that the Infinity Engine games were particularly known for.
That last quote make me suspect that you didn't read well my post so also didn't answer well. All my comments was only for the beginning of the game, let say the first 6 area. Nothing more.