RPGWatch Wiki awaiting contributions!

[Gorath]

We´ve opened our new RPGWatch Wiki (http://www.rpgwatch.com/wikka/HomePage) today. The trial balloon will be Gothic 3. If it´s a success every RPG in our data base can get its own chapter in our Wiki!

What´s a wiki?
It´s an easy to maintain site which allows every reader - in our case after successful forum registration - to add new content or make corrections to other people´s submissions. Creating new pages and formating text is easy. Pages are automatically indexed, so the wiki is searchable. A high traffic wiki grows in size and quality over time, until there´s nothing more to add.

As opposed to a website a wiki is meant to collect thousands of small contributions by its visitors. Every tiny piece of information is useful! Even if you don´t remember all the details about a certain topic somebody else probably will be able to complete your entry.

A wiki depends on active participation!

Here´s a direct link to our Gothic 3 Wiki (http://www.rpgwatch.com/wikka/Gothic3). Just type in the text and then look up the formating details in the Formatting Guide (http://www.rpgwatch.com/wikka/FormattingRules). It´s a catalog with the most common formats. Most of them are easy to implement.

[Thaurin]

Can there also be more than one name for a page? I mean, some pages might not have the best names or should have more than one name pointing to it (or redirected to it). Also, I hope we can sort out an ideal structure for this. :)

[Gorath]

What we need most are contributors! ;)

50 people who add 1 short entry every day and it would take off like a rocket!

I think pages can only have one name. The displayed link doesn´t need to be identical though. Plus you can link to every page from every other page.

Let me know if you have suggestions for a structure.

Quests should probably be sorted by city. NPCs city and maybe faction.

And interesting question is also which data to collect for quests and NPCs.

[Danicek]

Great, going to add my little contribution using my great English skill ;).

[Thaurin]

It's just that on Wikipedia, sometimes when you search for something you get redirected to another page that has the same meaning. Or sometimes a word has more than one meaning and there are more than one pages for the same word. I think that makes certain things a lot better and easier to navigate and find.

Like when I search for 'tweaks' I should be directed to the same page as when I search for 'ini files', or something. I guess it already does this sort of, by indexing the page. Certain page names just stroke me as a little strange or unnatural (as in they're not in a dictionary kind of way).

Another thing: is it okay to post on other forums with this link or on other places to try and get more contributors for the wiki?

[Gorath]

All the publisher infos you guys entered are unprecise! JoWooD is written with a capital D, Deep Silver is co-publisher with equal rights as JoWooD, Aspyr is responsible for North America, not the USA. And since Deep Silver is our primary source for G3 infos I think the Euro publishers should have the classic alphabetic sorting. ;)

edit: Writing JoWooD correctly in the Wiki is a rather complex task. :p

[Gorath]

Spamming other message boards is not a good idea. But if you happen to find the solution to a problem in the wiki you could of course credit the source. ;)

[Thaurin]

Ah, I just thought I'd start a page about the publishers. I don't know much about them, maybe someone else can fill it in further. I'll fix the info as soon as possible. That's another thing about this wiki by the way: there's no way to correct the page name after it's created, right? I mean, we're stuck with Jowood now instead of JoWooD. And going on what you said, it doesn't like the capitals neither. ;)

This wiki software looks pretty mature, so I'm confident that there are good solutions to most problems, but I'll have to figure them out.

As for getting more contributors without spamming or being annoying about it, yeah I wouldn't want it to sound like advertising. This wiki is for the good of all who seek Gothic knowledge. ;)

[Gorath]

Myrthos suggested a solution which requires to manually define each page´s displayed name. Could be a good idea. Do it once, then fuggedaboutit.

[Thaurin]

What about pages that have already been created? Can moderators change the displayed name for a page that already exists?

[Gorath]

Not known yet.

[Thaurin]

I see. That would of course be great (also I want the redirecting to a page from another keyword thing!!). By the way, I'm currently logged into the forum, but the wiki shows me as Unregistered. Also, it lets me edit any page I want!

[Thaurin]

We can't add new pages ourselves, by the way? That kind of defeats the purpose. :( Can't add a page called PatchHistory, an idea I just had.

EDIT, oh wait. You can create pages, it's just a little inconvenient. Just look at this page (http://wikkawiki.org/CreateNewPage) for instructions. I think I'll create an action for it on the first page.

[Gorath]

It´s easy. All you have do is type PageName and the page is created. Everything with 2 capital letters is a page.

[Thaurin]

Yes, and that can be a problem too sometimes, as we already saw. ;) But the problem I had was that you have to refer to a non-existing page from an existing page first, so that you can click on it to create it then. You can also just put a non-existing page name in the URL. The downside then is that it will be orphaned, but that shouldn't always be a problem, since you can still search it or find it in the PageIndex.

You could also add the action {{newpage}} to the home page. It will insert an input field and button that allows one to create a new page. I was not allowed to edit it. :P

[Evil Timmy]

The way new pages works makes a lot of sense...it forces you to think of how the page should be compartmentalized, and allows people to get to what you've written in a logical way. I've added a guide to the Guides section, both as an example and to test out the Wiki. I'd encourage everyone else to do the same: pitch in just a bit that's missing, especially something you've found very useful or interesting while playing. It takes only a few minutes (just open up another window with the Formatting Guidelines if you're not familiar with Wikis), and if there's a critical mass of information here, the Wiki will grow and thrive, and become an invaluable resource to the Gothic 3 community. And don't worry if your spelling and grammar aren't perfect: there's always someone who'll come along feeling pedantic enough to turn your pidgin English into sparkling prose.

[Thaurin]

Like me. ;) Anyway, there are also a ton of what the wiki calls "actions" (http://wikkawiki.org/UsingActions). One of these actions that you can insert on a page, for example, is {{wantedpages}}. This lists pages that are linked to, but don't exist. It would be a great way for people to find stuff that they can fill in. Check out some of the other actions, they could really increase the functionality. But I suppose the person that installed it is still working on that kind of stuff (and probably disabled a few things for now, too).

Also, I don't understand why the rich editor hasn't been enabled. That way, people can just click on a "bold" icon or whatever to make text bold. It's a lot easier to understand for most.

Finally, we need more contributors! At least I'm having fun. :)

[Gorath]

New naming convention:

1. All page names must start with "Gothic3". Then continue with a logical name.
Example:
Gothic3TheShyDeer
This makes sure no important name is blocked by only one game.

To display another external name embrace it in double brackets and add one space followed by the descriptive name:
[[Gothic3TheShyDeer The Shy Deer]]
would be displayed as
The Shy Deer

2. Add a title at the top of each page:
=====This is a Title=====
Use 5 = keys.

3. Set the page owner to Gorath in the "edit ALCs" menu at the bottom.
I will assign pages to forum members so that they can feel responsible for them. ;)

[Thaurin]

I really hate how this works. I understand that you eventually want to try wiki's for other games, but this just looks ugly. That is, this full page name appears on top of the page and also in search results. Furthermore, I feel that these page should function like keywords, while now it's just an identifier. Of course, I have no idea how to work this out with the current wiki software. I'm just more used to the stuff WoWWiki and Wikipedia use.

And what's with the page names ending with a capital? (NpcS. DownloadS, etc.) Unnecessary as far as I can see. Yeah, yeah, I know they're just identifiers, or something. I just see this thing more as a dictionary kind of look-up thing.

Also, after the layout update, the === headers look the same as the == headers, so there is no differentiation between the two headers. This should be fixed.

Finally, the smaller content width is more easily readable, yes, but editing pages like that is a pain! Especially when pasting long URL's. Some weirdness also makes it so that the cursor jumps outside of the edit area when you do that. Infuriating!

[Gorath]

I really hate how this works. I understand that you eventually want to try wiki's for other games, but this just looks ugly.
Not my decision. The admin insisted on it. He wants to install only one wiki for all games.


That is, this full page name appears on top of the page and also in search results. Furthermore, I feel that these page should function like keywords, while now it's just an identifier. Of course, I have no idea how to work this out with the current wiki software. I'm just more used to the stuff WoWWiki and Wikipedia use.
The name at the top will disappear. Thus we need a headline inside the page.
Navigation also needs to be added.


Finally, the smaller content width is more easily readable, yes, but editing pages like that is a pain! Especially when pasting long URL's. Some weirdness also makes it so that the cursor jumps outside of the edit area when you do that. Infuriating!
I also don´t like it.

[Thaurin]

Removing the page identifier (this is what I will call it from now on, since it is accurate) will be an improvement. Search results will still look a bit confusing, I think. I understand the decision to use just one wiki, but forcing the use of the Gothic3 prefix will be a problem, as will a standard page layout. I was under the impression that all this is easier to accomplish in Wikipedia's software, but oh well. We're using this now.

I'll have to adjust my idea of what this wiki really does a bit and wait for when you guys get around to fix things up with it.

[mute]

Great, was a little dissoriented at first before i found the main page for gothic.

Perhaps it is troublesome editing and linking documents (doesn't look like i at a first glance), but i really feel the end result will be wonderful. The correct way to present all info on a game! :)

Oh well, my trouble in life is that i often see the result all work might bring. Not really thinking to much of the work getting there...

Nice initiativ! Me like.

[Thaurin]

Hey, even if you add one little bit of information, a small correction to an existing page or a small start of a new page, it will be very helpful to the wiki! :)

[Gorath]

Yes, let me repeat: Every tiny piece of info is valuable!


The WYSIWYG editor has been activated.

[Sem]

Just added some armors.
Haven't seen them all yet, so more will come as soon as I run across them.
Of course you (everybody that reads this) can add them too!

[Gorath]

Thanks for adding them. :)
You forgot the naming conventions though. Every page name must start with Gothic3... unless it´s clear it can be used for multiple games, like developer or publisher profiles for example. A wiki doesn´t have a hirarchy, all pages are equal, for all 500 games in the DB. A prefix is the only possibility to enforce some sorting.

A page can be cloned if you add
/clone
to the URL in the browser.
Then the wiki asks for a new name.

[Gorath]

I renamed all old pages and created links for items and cheats.

[Gorath]

I'll have to adjust my idea of what this wiki really does a bit and wait for when you guys get around to fix things up with it.

I also think it´s a bad idea to use only one wiki, but if the user participation remains as disappointing as it is now the problem will solve itself.

Problems will only be fixed as they come up. Developing the site has priority over developing the wiki.

[Thaurin]

I think that at least part of the low user participation may be that they find it confusing to use. And that may be in part because of how the system works now. ;) But don't forget that interest might grow after the NA release. :) (especially if there's some useful stuff on it by then, like the list of trainers) But most people probably don't even know it exists. In any case, I don't think there are a lot of good guides widely available yet.

[Sem]

Updated the Wiki with several armors, quests and other items.

[Thaurin]

Thanks! I haven't played a lot of Gothic 3 myself, lately, but this stuff is appreciated.

[Myrthos]

How is this wiki more confusing to use than wikipedia? Wikipedia uses mediawiki. Our wiki uses a similar way of handling pages as mediawiki does (http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Contents vs. http://wikkawiki.org/WikkaDocumentation).
Names with two capitals in them are automatically converted to a Wiki link. If you want to use a name like 'Heroes' as a wiki page name you need to add two brackets around it like: [[Heroes]]. It will then be converted to a Wiki link. Page naming is not different in that way. It's just a choice you have to make.

Both mediawiki and wikkawiki use categories. At the moment you have chosen not to use them. It adds the only thing that can be seen as a hierarchy to a wiki. It would be an option to have a category labelled as Gothic3. In that case you can automatically group all pages into the Gothic category. You don't have to use the Gothic3 prefix for all pages then either.

Actually Mediawiki and Wikkawiki are not that different, but if you can explain to me in a bit more detail how in Mediawiki (or wikipedia) things are easier, I'll see if I can change that.

One criteria with respect to the choice of which wiki to use on this site was if I could integrate it. It needed to be 'skinnable' for that and it needed to be in PHP (and using mySQL as database would be nice too). WikkaWiki is a better choice than MediaWiki is in that respect. And it is also a lot faster too.

It is not impossible to install multiple wikka wiki's, but how many would we need? As a compromise we could go with one wiki per subsite of RPGWatch. I don't think we will have too many of those.
That would mean the current wiki will be used for Gothic 3. This does however not solve your problem as when there is an add-on for Gothic 3 or a Gothic 4, you will still need a way to separate them (my choice would be using categories). On the other hand, there is a complete encyclopedia made using only one installed wiki, if they can, why can't we?

[Sem]

@Gorath, is it possible (read not too much work) to make Gothic 3 a category? Adding the Gothic3 prefix everytime is annoying.

Is there a way to link directly to an image added somewhere else on the wiki? For example I've placed a map in Maps (Asaru's Hide-out). Now I want to link directly to the map in a quest description (Aila, quest in Braga).
I only managed to do it by taking the imageshack url.

[Thaurin]

Making categories for Gothic 3 and any other wiki you'd like for other games sounds like a good idea. Originally, I was just a little put off, because I was used to using wiki's like Wikipedia that work more as a dictionary look-up than a guide. That is, you can search for terms and it will direct you to pages matching that term. You can do that with Wikkawiki, but someone I was missing the referral and disambiguation (or whatever) features. That is, getting directed to a page through multiple keywords and having multiple pages for the same word with different meanings. I guess there kinds of features are not really necessary for a game guide wiki, though.

But the prefix is kind of tiring. And layout is king. There shouldn't be Gothic3Heroes titles on the screen anywhere. Also, I think the current version is incapable of easily adding a table of contents section like Wikipedia often has. I read something about a workaround using <a name="name"> anchor tags, but anyway.

This is just off the top of my head. Really, Wikkiwakka isn't that bad, I'm just a perfectionist. ;)

[Gorath]

In both cases the answer is "I don´t know". Myrthos is doing the behind the scenes work.

Maybe you can find the URL in the picture´s properties.

@Gorath, is it possible (read not too much work) to make Gothic 3 a category? Adding the Gothic3 prefix everytime is annoying.

Is there a way to link directly to an image added somewhere else on the wiki? For example I've placed a map in Maps (Asaru's Hide-out). Now I want to link directly to the map in a quest description (Ail, quest in Braga).
I only managed to do it by taking the imageshack url.

[VPeric]

Categorization is very, very important, IMHO. And if that way we can avoid the annoying "Gothic3" prefix, then even better! Personally, what's stopping me from contributing is a) lack of time, and b) the fact nothing is there yet! Creating new pages ain't my forte, I'd rather just improve upon existing ones.

I believe some sort of categorization should be agree upon soon/now, though, to avoid major work later (like, say, editing hundreads of pages to add a single link to 'em). I suggest something along the lines of:

Gothic 3 (Top level category)
1. Quests
- Main Quest
-- Quest 1 (because you decided to have separate pages for each quest)
-- Quest 2...
- Ardea Quests
-- Ardea-Quest1...
- Reddock Quests...
2. Apendices (no sub categories, just to list pages)
-- Trainers List
-- Armors list
-- XX List/Table/map/something
3. Misc
-- Publisher Info, etc.


Of course, now you're thinking... but there are only 3 "high-level" categories! Yeah, but: a) I may have overlooked something important; b) it's just way cleaner that way. The sub categories are really only needed for the Quests category, but they are very needed there. And the best thing? This same method can be used for other games you'd want to make a Wiki for; standardized "rules" are a good thing.


Also, no spaces in page names? Is this a design choice, or does the software not support it? I find it slightly annoying.

[Myrthos]

How to use categories: http://wikkawiki.org/WikiCategory

How to create smart titles: http://wikkawiki.org/SmartTitlesInfo
What Wikipedia has and we don't is that when you add a link like this: [[This is a page]] it shows the text 'This is a page' and links to the page 'This_is_a_page'. In our system that same link shows the text 'is a page' and links to the page 'This'. Both have their pros and cons I assume.

Linking is to pages not content of a page.

[Sem]

How to use categories: http://wikkawiki.org/WikiCategory

Can the content that has been contributed so far easily be placed into the category, or does everything have to be moved manually?

[Myrthos]

The answer is in the text isn't it?


Mentioning a category anywhere on a wikipage will include the page in the mentioned category.

[Sem]

I've made a category for Gothic 3.
For all contributors: please add the following to all existing or new pages:


----
CategoryGothic3


You can leave out the prefix "Gothic3" now as long as you've added it to the category.

@Myrthos:
The wiki "homepage" stills show the Gothic 3 wiki and not the category, however I can't edit the homepage.

[VPeric]

Alright then!

1) If I, for example, put "PageXYZ" into the category "Quests", which is a subcategory of "Gothic 3", would I also have to separately put "PageXYZ" into the "Gothic 3" category too, or is it automatically there, because "Quests" is?

2) Do people agree in general with my suggested categorization? If so, I'll go and start making 'em all.

3) I forgot. :P

[Thaurin]

Hey, this sounds a bit nicer already. It seems WikkaWiki has some other features that I didn't know about. ;) It's true that Wikipedia can do the [[This is a page]] => This_is_a_page thing and that threw me off as well, I guess. I find it more intuitive, because I'm used to it, but WikkaWiki's way works, too.

[Gorath]

Alright then!

1) If I, for example, put "PageXYZ" into the category "Quests", which is a subcategory of "Gothic 3", would I also have to separately put "PageXYZ" into the "Gothic 3" category too, or is it automatically there, because "Quests" is?
I think this is done automatically.
We should start all category names with "G3" though. Otherwise it might become problematic to add categories for Gothic and G2 later. Most users will only add pages, not categories. Page names should be descriptive but they don´t need to include the game.


2) Do people agree in general with my suggested categorization? If so, I'll go and start making 'em all.
We should discuss this. I was thinking about skipping the walkthrough. The other site has solutions for all quests and it´s searchable for faction boni. Maybe our time is better spent elsewhere.

[VPeric]

Aye, I agree, it'd be best if categry names started with G3 regardless - it's hardly a big problem.

I agree, a walkthrough shouldn't be a first priority perhaps, but it's still important. Heck, there's not that much stuff to list otherwise. What do you suggested gets done first, then? I was also thinking, it'd be good to have lists on all the ways to get +Atributes, but that'd likely have to wait 'till quests are done, hm?

[Sem]

I think this is done automatically.
We should start all category names with "G3" though.

You mean rename "CategoryGothic3" to "CategoryG3" or are you talking about other categories?

About pages automatically getting added to the category:
This is not the case, at least not for existing pages.

/edit: you have to add the mentioned line
----
CategoryGothic3
manually for all pages it's not automatically added when you make a new subpage in a page that's in the category.

[Gorath]

You mean rename "CategoryGothic3" to "CategoryG3" or are you talking about other categories?
About other categories. Or how would you separate the G3, the G2, the NotR and the Gothic walkthrough (or cheats or whatever else) from each other or even from NWN 2?


About pages automatically getting added to the category:
This is not the case, at least not for existing pages.

/edit: you have to add the mentioned line
----
CategoryGothic3
manually for all pages it's not automatically added when you make a new subpage in a page that's in the category.

You misunderstood the question. ;)
I think every page must be manually sorted into (at least) one category or sub-category.

[Sem]

another little update, hopefully more members will follow.
I've made screens from several armors.

If you want to add more, find a (orc) throne. This way you can easily make a screen from the front.

[Gorath]

Okay, I´m back. Thanks to everybody who added something while I was busy with other things. :)

How many (sub)categories shall we have? Only on the 2nd level or more like 5 to 10?

Should we create a single page for every quest or sort them into the locations ?

[SlamDunk]

Any info on how to get Anti-Aliasing working would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

Gorath gotten any inside info from PB on the AA issue? Is the next patch going to enable AA, perhaps?

[Sem]

I've added a guide to playing a mage. It focusses on the part until you get Mana Regeneration.

[Krzychu]

I visited the Wiki, to find the comments on some pages flooded with spam, with the record being 1266 comments (Well, at least 3 of them are real comments).

Now I totally agree with the Skynet theory (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1655)!!!

[Bartacus]

I suggest that we 'close' the wiki -> I mean adjustable by a limited number of people. Some of you know that I'd like to help to get a sort of 'GothicWatch (as compared to GothicDot). I see Gorath as a supervisor for a small team of people willing to work on this, but not with a real time pressure (it's not a newseditorjob)

[Sem]

I will add some new stuff to the wiki as soon as the big patch has arrived.
It's pretty worthless to document everything now only to find out that the little values change with the new patch.

Whether or not it's part of GothicWatch, doesn't really matter to me.

[Cm]

Not sure if you want to limit who can add to it, (I doubt I will ever have any good input), but perhaps authorizing a group of people to prune out spam and or useless info would be good.

The site and the additions so far look great guys.

[Bartacus]

Isn't there anyone else willing to contribute to the wiki? The idea is to implement the wiki with a Gothic-newspage. Creating a GothicDot sort of speech.

[Maylander]

Once the new patch is out, I'll be doing a very thorough game of the "dark side" of Gothic 3 (Beliar all the way pretty much), so I can probably fill out quite a bit during that playthrough.

[Thaurin]

I suggest (if that's what you mean) creating the Gothic news page in the wiki and telling us about it. We can then freely add news to it if someone finds something out. ;)

The spam is really bad, though. I just put back an older version of a page that was entirely replaced with spam.

[Gorath]

I´ve locked the following wiki page by setting the ALCs to "nobody". Can you guys still edit it when logged in / logged out?
http://www.rpgwatch.com/wikka/Gothic3Items

[Korplem]

I cannot while logged in.

"Page locked due to excessive spam. Please post suggested additions in our forum."

[Gorath]

Okay, thanks. Now we need an anonymous user to try it.

[Bartacus]

Gorath, we can't edit while logged in nor logged out. I'd suggest to enable it for the logged in members.

[Gorath]

That´s how it was before - and didn´t work correctly. Anons still were allowed to post although the ALCs said otherwise.
I only changed this one page.

[Bartacus]

Perhaps you can do this with the pages that are done or at least don't need a lot of updating. -> tweaks and requirements âges are as good as done.

[EDV]

Gorath,
Could you maybe add a 'List of Potion recipes' and 'List of headgear' to the items menu. It's locked because of spam, and I would like to make those lists.
Thanks.

[Gorath]

I´ve created the pages. The items menu should be open again.

[EDV]

They are no longer empty. I also added a list of plants.
But why is the Tips/Hints page locked? It says 'you are not allowed to read this page'. Is it a site under construction or a play at 'you are not allowed to talk to us' from Gothic 1?

[Gorath]

Seems to be a bug. I can´t open that page.

The old bug is also back. The ALCs are set to "only registered users can post". But the things you´ve added are owned by "unregistered", not by "EDV".

Creating that wiki was a mistake.

[EDV]

I made a short bestiary. It is still work in progress, I plan to add a 'creatures of Beliar' section and a 'miscellaneous' section. Feel free to add creatures I have forgotten.