College chiefs urge new debate on drinking age

[blatantninja]

Of all the laws I detest in the US, the 21 year old drinking age is probably the most detested. Good to see some rational thought on it:

College chiefs urge new debate on drinking age (http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/08/18/college.drinking.age.ap/index.html)

College presidents from about 100 of the nation's best-known universities, including Duke, Dartmouth and Ohio State, are calling on lawmakers to consider lowering the drinking age from 21 to 18, saying current laws actually encourage dangerous binge drinking on campus.

I truly despise MADD for the way they have turned even looking at alcohol into a crime. While I don't want anyone that is truly drunk on the road either, they've turned it into a complete witch hunt with the draconian laws they've pushed through and the bullshit statistics they put out.

[Benedict]

We underwrite the public liability insurance for a load of US fraternities, it's been very profitable since we put an exclusion on any events involving alcohol, which seems to basically exclude anything that ever happens in a fraternity.

[Zaleukos]

Is the drinking age a federal issue?

[blatantninja]

It shouldn't be. In fact, it flies in the very intent of the Constitution. However, they did an end around by withholding highway funds to any state that didn't raise the drinking age to 21 and no one had the balls to challenge it in the courts.

[magerette]

It's amazing how anyone could think a law(21 to buy booze) would actually stop underage drinking. Apparently no one learned anything from Prohibition. I wish we had the same attitude towards substances as we do toward guns--then anybody could have anything and use it however they chose, and all the people making fortunes in illegal trafficking would have to get another job. Instead we just get to shoot each other. :p

[Icefire]

It's amazing how anyone could think a law(21 to buy booze) would actually stop underage drinking.

So we should not have a legal drinking age? Because you can't stop it, there should be no law? There's still going to be underage drinking no matter what the drinking age is.

I certainly agree that the drinking age should be 18, because anyone who is old enough to defend his/her country should be allowed to have a few beers if they choose, but I'm sorry Magerette, the argument that it should change because you're "not going to stop underage drinking", is a very weak one.

[magerette]

My response was rather tongue-in-cheek, Icefire--always a danger on the internetz. :) It's a serious issue, I guess I shouldn't be so flippant.

I didn't say anything about not having an age requirement to drink. It's just a very easy law to circumvent, and it's niave to think it can solve the problem of underage kids drinking to excess, and doing foolish things as a result. As such, it's really nothing more than a bandaid. I'm sure the people who formulated it had the best interests of young people at heart, but as I meant by my reference to Prohibition, in actuality it just prompts kids to break the law.

Also, the more laws you make, the more people you have to jail for breaking them, an expensive proposition any more. I'm in favor of realistic laws, and more reliance on personal involvement/ example from parents on issues like this.

[skavenhorde]

Magerette's response hits the nail on the head whether it was tongue in cheek or not and she's right about it being an easy law to cirvumvent. Just get a friend's older brother to buy it or failing that wait outside the local 7-11 and ask someone going in to buy it for you. Works like a charm everytime. Hell I was 15 with my friends when I was pulling that stunt. Do I think there should be underage drinking? Why not, the French do it lol. It forces you to take responsability for your own child instead of having big brother do it for you. A lot of the gang problems and violence could be taken out by legalizing a lot of substances that are currently banned. Not just gangs but the prison system could then concentrate on the real violent criminals instead of the non-violent crimes. It's insane how long they put people away in prison for having acid.

The problem doesn't just go away because people say it should. My home state is starting to see the light and taken the first steps to legalizing bud. Others may follow.

I know someone will say what about heroin, meth, crack etc... Well if you want the gangs gone and the violence that goes with them then you need to legalize everything. It's not like it's really hard to find anyways. Take California for instance head on down to some parks or bars and you'll find whatever you want or hell head up to Compton and there you go. However, I'm under no illusions that drug legalization is going to happen in my country. So we're stuck with gangs and violence because they still have a product to sell that people want.

I know this will get a lot of people heated (it always does). I have no other answers than the ones I just stated so don't even bother asking, anyways this is way off topic. It's just that drugs and gangs go hand in hand, take drugs out of the equation and gangs could not survive or at least won't have the kind of power and money they do now and our prison system wouldn't be bursting at the seams.

[blatantninja]

I can say that growing up in Texas in the 90's, I never had a problem getting alcohol. Before college, I just rolled up to Lake Dallas and hit the shops there during the day. Never carded once and I looked well under 21.

In college, we had a system in my organization where freshman were paired with older members (big brothers). There were lots of purposes, but one of the main benefits was that the older brother was required to do at least one beer run every two weeks if you wanted it. By my sophomore year (19), I routinely when and picked up kegs for our parties by myself. Heck, I even negotiated a bulk deal where we got billed monthly by the place.

[Lucky Day]

I suppose this would reduce drinking because then at $4 a beer at the campus bar the students would run out of money sooner. This is really what's going, let's not pretend these presidents are being altruistic.

If they were really interested in stopping the binging they might consider getting rid of the Frat system.

[dteowner]

I'm a diehard GDI, but if we're really going to blame the frat system, how does one explain binge drinking being just as common at the high school level?

[Sergius64]

The question that begs to be asked is: "If everyone's ignoring this limit anyway, why go through the trouble of lowering the limit?"

[Lucky Day]

dte - I honestly think it would be worse at the High School level. Even worse I think studies show that increases binge drinking has a lot to do with the "designated driver" idea cathcing on.

Serg. - I don't think "everyone's ignoring the limit" at all.

Simply because there are people ignoring regulations does not mean that they are 100% totally ineffective.

But again, 18..21 we could quibble all day about ages. Again, this is a matter of a cash grab by colleges. Its also an open admission about a campus problem, one they are trying to redirect into their pocket books.

[Dyne]

The question that begs to be asked is: "If everyone's ignoring this limit anyway, why go through the trouble of lowering the limit?"
The thinking goes that allowing alcohol to be a facet of life from an earlier age means a more mature relationship with it can be fostered before trouble starts.

The European attitude towards alcohol and children - a drop of wine for them at dinner, neat or in the drinking water, is supposedly the means to a good attitude to drink.

Personally I think the simplest means to arrive at a conclusion is to assume if they want it, they can get hold of it; or someone's going to expose them to it whether they seek it out specifically or not.
With that in mind, would you rather your kid's first experiences with alcohol be a drop of wine with you over dinner, in a controlled environment; or at a raucous uni party full of alpha-males trying to outdrink each other or whatnot.

I think "So, do you like wine?" is a better, healthier introduction to alcohol than "Down it! Down it! Down it!"

Then again, we can technically drink from 5 over here, and we've got a binge-drinking problem. I still put that down to poor parental education though, rather than the law.

[blatantninja]

The frat system is no better or worse than any other group. I was in a non-greek group and we drank every bit as much if not more than most frats. It's a social thing, everything from peer pressure to just easy of accessibility.

[V7]

I think binge drinking is more of a cultural issue than a legal one, you see just as much binge drinking in the UK and they don't have any thing like the hangups about drinking Americans do.

[Zaleukos]

I certainly agree that a drinking age of 18 would make a bit more sense (and that no limit at all makes sense if people cant be arsed to enforce it, even if I think one for basic biological reasons shouldnt let still developing bodies take alcohol).

I also doubt that lowering the drinking age would reduce binge drinking. That is a cultural/attitude problem that has to be tackled other ways.

Reducing the number of lawbreakers is a good enough cause to get rid of a regulation that mostly is ignored anyway. Making black market white so to speak...

It shouldn't be. In fact, it flies in the very intent of the Constitution. However, they did an end around by withholding highway funds to any state that didn't raise the drinking age to 21 and no one had the balls to challenge it in the courts.

Now that's a neat way of getting around the spirit of an important document (rolleyes would be appropriate but I dont know the code:p). I somehow imagine that the founding fathers intended the federal government to handle somewhat less petty issues...

[Alrik Fassbauer]

German law forbits the selling of alcohol to people younger than 18.

Of course some seek ways to get around of it ...

[Sergius64]

Serg. - I don't think "everyone's ignoring the limit" at all.

Simply because there are people ignoring regulations does not mean that they are 100% totally ineffective.


That was actually exactly my point. Since the regulations are having some success, why are they being dismantled? Seems like we as a Taxpayers have to waste money on all these different regulatiosn being passed and then removed some time later when the tide of public opinion turns against them. Why couldn't people originally accuratly estimate how successful these regulations would be and if they would ultimately be better then not having the regulation at all?

The thinking goes that allowing alcohol to be a facet of life from an earlier age means a more mature relationship with it can be fostered before trouble starts.

The European attitude towards alcohol and children - a drop of wine for them at dinner, neat or in the drinking water, is supposedly the means to a good attitude to drink.

Personally I think the simplest means to arrive at a conclusion is to assume if they want it, they can get hold of it; or someone's going to expose them to it whether they seek it out specifically or not.
With that in mind, would you rather your kid's first experiences with alcohol be a drop of wine with you over dinner, in a controlled environment; or at a raucous uni party full of alpha-males trying to outdrink each other or whatnot.

I think "So, do you like wine?" is a better, healthier introduction to alcohol than "Down it! Down it! Down it!"

Then again, we can technically drink from 5 over here, and we've got a binge-drinking problem. I still put that down to poor parental education though, rather than the law.

I agree with this, it's best when children are exposed to alcohol in a controlled environment by their parents. But how do you deal with parents who are against this for religious or personal reasons?

Plus there's all these other substances out there which many kids end up trying as well. Tobacco and Weed come to mind, would you expose your kids to these two just so that they don't get exposed to them in an evironment that invites abuse? But what if your kid wasn't ever going to try either until you interfered and you are the one who end up making him a smoker or a weedhead?

[Prime Junta]

I agree with this, it's best when children are exposed to alcohol in a controlled environment by their parents. But how do you deal with parents who are against this for religious or personal reasons?

Speaking from personal experience, that's not a silver bullet either. I was exposed to alcohol by my parents in a controlled environment, and then proceeded to binge with the best of 'em, with the added illusion that I knew what I was doing because of my soft landing into it. I didn't become an alcoholic not because of anything I did or didn't do, but simply because alcohol isn't a particularly addictive substance for my particular metabolism or personality, and I didn't suffer or do any permanent damage mostly because I was lucky.

Most teens will drink, just like most teens will do all kinds of other dumb and dangerous stuff, and there's really not a whole lot anyone can do about it. Luckily most are able to, eventually, handle it, and comparatively few are unlucky enough to do something irreparable while they're at it.

[Prime Junta]

(rolleyes would be appropriate but I dont know the code:p)

It's...

(drum roll)

: rolleyes :

(minus the spaces: :rolleyes: ).

[Pladio]

I think the legal age for low alcohol beverages in Belgium is 16. Stronger liquors is 18 I think. Until I went to uni in the UK though I never drank much ... Britons :) drink A LOT of alcohol, I don't even try to keep up.

I got a soft landing with drinking sips of wine on Friday evening since I was very small.
I don't drink much except for special occasions like weddings, new year ...

[Zaleukos]

It's...

(drum roll)

: rolleyes :

(minus the spaces: :rolleyes: ).

Thanks. Know I feel I've gotten something out of this day:D

[txa1265]

My basic though is - if you can be sent away to be shot up 'for your country', then you should have full legal rights to *everything* in that country. So if the drinking age isn't moved to 18, the soldiering age should be moved to 21.

[KazikluBey]

In Sweden, you're allowed to drink alcohol at bars/restaurants (where you're not allowed to take it with you) when you're 18, but to buy it in stores (they're all owned by the state) you need to be 20. It works out OK I think.

[Toaster]

It works because everyone who wants alcohol can get someone to buy it for them, or worse, buy smuggled or home-made booze. The logical solution would be to lower the buying age to 18 as well, IMO, but then I am a bit frustrated by the extra work for others the system generates since I'm half a year from turning 20 now...

[Zaleukos]

There's another factor affecting consumption in Sweden, namely the price. The best way to limit underage consumption is probably to raise the price of booze rather than the age limit, but there is the slight problem of a black market. Taken too far it would have the same effect as an outright ban in boosting organised crime.

[Corwin]

The problem with raising the price, is that some people will still buy the same amount of alcohol, but do without other, often more important things, like food and shelter!!

[Benedict]

The problem with raising the price, is that some people will still buy the same amount of alcohol, but do without other, often more important things, like food and shelter!!

Natural selection at work.

[titus]

Raising the price won't help. Look at sigarettes. Here in belgium the price has doubled almost in a few years time. I don't see less KIDS smoking then before, I even see more and younger kids smoking. It might help a bit with older people but not often either.

Like Pladio said you can drink from your sixteenth and strong liquor from the age of 21. But you never see, or hardly ever see any control on it. If you start with sensibilisation of the shopkeepers/barkeepers this could already help. You would still have the trouble of " the elder brother" but it might help a bit.

I find it more funny that in America you can drive at 16 but drink at 21. I would think that there would even be more drunk drivers than over here because over here they already learnt a bit about alchohol (by sense or the hard way) before they can drive. But I don't say it doesn't happen here because it does.

A real solution? I think it would be educating the children and the parents but change the age of legal drinking wouldn't do much I think.

America can be funny sometimes: you can drive and join the army before you can have a legal pint :D

[Prime Junta]

There's also the question of enforcement. It's quite common to have small corner stores that only have one or two young women staffing them on weekends or towards closing time. They're supposed to be enforcing the rules on sales of alcohol and cigarettes -- age limits, no selling to people who are drunk.

Quite often they don't. I can't really blame them, because refusing to sell beer to a bunch of oversexed, half-drunk, possibly somewhat thuggish teenagers would certainly get unpleasant and possibly dangerous. Helsinki is a safe city, you can trust the police (generally speaking), and they respond fast, but even so.