Another school shooting in Finland!

[GothicGothicness]

There is not much info availiable yet, but I just got news there is another shooting in a finnish school. I don't understand what motivates young people to do this kind of thing in a wellfare country like Finland.

Maybe it really is the easy access to weapons that make these shootings, I heard it is quite easy to get a weapon in Finland, and in USA that had the most shooting it is very easy to get weapons.

How do you guys think about that??

[JemyM]

We humans are born with instincts that when rubbed in the wrong way can do things we consider inhuman or unnatural but it's not. I saw a video on suicide terrorism that dealt with these natural impulses starting at the end of the first part, continuing over to the second. Andy Thomson on Suicide Terrorism (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuipt15s08c).

People who have studied psychology from a nurture perspective but not from a nature perspective can simply not understand the kind of forces going on within each human being. People who do not understand neither and simply expects a "troublemaker" to behave is pretty much expecting a ticking bomb to chill out because they told them to. And naturally, if they have access to a gun when that happens it will get worse. If it happens in Sweden a guy might get hold of a knife and stab someone but it's difficult to take down a bunch with a knife that you have no training with.

[Prime Junta]

First off, despite this shooting and the one last year, gun violence is still statistically very low in Finland. We tend to kill each other with knives and axes rather than firearms. Murder in Finland is still "joblessness, liquor / ax and family / snowbank, police / and the final mistake," as Eppu Normaali put it.

But it's clear that American-style violence like this is becoming more frequent here. This is the second such event in recent years; the third if you count the mall bombing in Vantaa. I think the reasons are rather similar to the ones in the US too; the profiles of the killers certainly are.

Ideas are contagious. If they fall into fertile ground, they will sprout. Finnish culture has a very grim streak; not too long ago we had the highest male suicide rate in the world. I have a feeling that at least a part of the explanation is simply a rechanneling of this grimness.

People imitate stuff. Back in the day, the model to imitate was a rope over a tree branch or both barrels into the mouth. Now it's going out in a blaze of glory, taking others with you. In Gaza, these guys would be strapping on suicide vests and walking into Tsahal checkpoints. In Russia, they'd be killing each in an argument over a few roubles and a half-bottle of vodka.

It may or may not be significant that Western Finland, where this happened, has a fairly significant violent streak in its traditions. The iconic heroes are Iso-Antti and Rannanjärvi, a pair of outlaw knife-fighters that made all kinds of mayhem back in the day. Perhaps the poor sap who did this saw himself as a modern version of them.

http://www.nykarlebyvyer.nu/BILDER/PERSONER/ISOTALON.jpg

Edit: he sure *looks* like them.

http://static.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/ampujahloTM_uu.jpg

Edit 2: the usual suspects are quoted about him -- he lists his hobbies as computer games, heavy metal music, beer, and sex.

[GothicGothicness]

awful :( the latest report says 9 people dead. Before it was 3. The murderer might have survived after trying to shoot himself. What would you do with such a man if he survives???

[Prime Junta]

awful :( the latest report says 9 people dead. Before it was 3. The murderer might have survived after trying to shoot himself. What would you do with such a man if he survives???

I'm hearing "at least 10."

Since he shot himself in the head, I wouldn't expect anything much of him to survive. In that case, I'd like to see his organs harvested and used to save lives.

If he does survive with enough of his brain intact, I'd put him on trial and expect him to be sentenced to life in prison; after the customary 13 years or so, I'd check if he's calmed down enough to get the usual presidential pardon and have a second shot at life; that would mostly be spent earning money to pay compensation to the families of his victims.

[Surlent]

What a terrible tragedy and to make things worse, like others have said, it wasn't that long since the last school shoot out in Finland.
would mostly be spent earning money to pay compensation to the families of his victims.
With what kind of job could he pay back to the families of the lost ones? He shot himself in the head. That can possibly leave him severely brain damaged. He won't be getting any high paying jobs either with that kind crime record. In practise, with the job market what it is outside South and South West Finland, he would end up being complete waste on our society. Instead of paying back to families, he would just leech money out of them with social security checks. Let's allow the doctors just pull the plug.

[GothicGothicness]

Still 9 from my sources. This could turn out as very embarrasing for the finnish police. According to the latest newscast the guy was taken in by the police for questioning yesterday! But they saw no reason to arrest him or take his weapons away. Did they not learn anything from the previous shootings? if anything taking him in for questioning probably made him act, out of fear for being strapped of his weapon or declared mentally unstable.

It is very simular to the other shooting with youtube videos and threatening texts on his website.

[Prime Junta]

With what kind of job could he pay back to the families of the lost ones? He shot himself in the head. That can possibly leave him severely brain damaged. He won't be getting any high paying jobs either with that kind crime record. In practise, with the job market what it is outside South and South West Finland, he would end up being complete waste on our society. Instead of paying back to families, he would just leech money out of them with social security checks. Let's allow the doctors just pull the plug.

I think it's extremely unlikely that he'll have enough gray matter left to ever get out of the hospital bed, so that was more of a theoretical exercise than a practical one.

As to the doctors, I don't think it would be a good idea to give them the discretion to decide who's been bad enough to have the plug pulled, and I'm opposed to the death penalty in everything other than war crimes.

[Prime Junta]

Still 9 from my sources. This could turn out as very embarrasing for the finnish police. According to the latest newscast the guy was taken in by the police for questioning yesterday! But they saw no reason to arrest him or take his weapons away. Did they not learn anything from the previous shootings? if anything taking him in for questioning probably made him act, out of fear for being strapped of his weapon or declared mentally unstable.

It is very simular to the other shooting with youtube videos and threatening texts on his website.

Yup, the initial report of 10 dead turned out to be wrong; the last estimate is 9 dead, two CTD.

The police here are generally very pro-gun, which is one reason it's so easy to get a license, and I don't think I've ever heard of them revoking somebody's license if they haven't actually gone and committed a violent crime. But yeah, there are going to be some questions asked, which is a good thing.

[blatantninja]

God bless guys. These things are awful no matter where they happen.

[Toothpaste]

Do we blame this on RPGs?

[Prime Junta]

I'm sure someone will.

[Prime Junta]

As if it makes a difference, the final toll is eleven dead, including the shooter, and three wounded. What a waste.

[magerette]

Sad news. This person looks old to be a student, college I'm assuming? Old enough to have some better values any way. I think it's hard for anyone to say what brings someone to the point where they lash out with this kind of violence--usually it's something that most people deal with all the time--criticism, loss of a girlfriend, disappointment of some kind where the person feels victimized...what makes one person able to deal with it and another go berserk? I'd say an over-sized sense of one's own importance in the scheme of things might be a factor--other people's lives and feelings are unimportant.
Condolences to all involved.

[Prime Junta]

Vocational college. He was 22. He left a whole bunch of video messages on MySpace, YouTube, and IRC-Galleria (a Finnish social networking site); I'm sure there's plenty of material for armchair psychoanalysts there.

[Squeek]

...what makes one person able to deal with it and another go berserk?I'd suggest mental health, including plain old common sense -- or the lack of it, both of which have been expressed in the opinions of some of the folks here.

This stuff is either murder or it's not; it either makes sense or it doesn't. The idea that acts of murder like this are, somehow, justified if they're committed for the right reasons or against the right people will always be pure nonsense to me.

[Prime Junta]

I'd suggest mental health, including plain old common sense -- or the lack of it, both of which have been expressed in the opinions of some of the folks here.

This stuff is either murder or it's not; it either makes sense or it doesn't. The idea that acts of murder like this are, somehow, justified if they're committed for the right reasons or against the right people will always be pure nonsense to me.

Riiight... let's bring the Global War On Terror into this discussion too. Classy, Squeek. Real classy.

[Squeek]

Get a clue, pal.

[Prime Junta]

Get a clue, pal.

Help me out here, Squeek. What clue am I missing? I sort of thought you were comparing this school shooting to, say, a jihadi marching into a disco somewhere and shooting the kids there, and then drawing an equals sign between the two, and then suggesting that some of us here (meaning me) feel that the latter is justified but the former isn't. That is, as I said, really classy.

Am I totally misreading you here?

[Squeek]

You're just missing most of the point and getting ugly about it in your usual style by confusing what's been said and meant with the crap you always assert.

I mean what I mean. You figure it out.

[Prime Junta]

You're just missing the point.

It would help you said what your point is, you know. You have this habit of stringing together otherwise innocuous, semi-random thoughts that together paint a pretty clear picture of what's underneath, which is something that's carefully crafted to piss people off, and then skittering under the wardrobe when someone asks you whether that's what you actually meant.

There's a term for that sort of behavior, you know -- "trolling." It's also real classy. Not.

[Squeek]

Well, you were typing and quoting while I was elaborating, so there was a little overlap there.

You're welcome to your oddball point of view about murder, but I and most of the rest of the world see it differently. If you don't like it, that's tough.

[Prime Junta]

Well, you were typing and quoting while I was elaborating, so there was a little overlap there.

You're welcome to your oddball point of view about murder, but I and most of the rest of the world see it differently. If you don't like it, that's tough.

And what, prithee, is my oddball point of view about murder?

If you're interested in a discussion about when killing another human being is justifiable, I'm quite willing to have it. But throwing around oblique and sinister suggestions in a thread about something different is... real classy, as I said.

[Squeek]

I think what I've said is clear and easy to understand. Feel free to characterize it any way you like.

[Prime Junta]

I think what I've said is clear and easy to understand. Feel free to characterize it any way you like.

Nah, I don't like guessing games. I started another thread on this topic. Perhaps you'd care to participate?

[JDR13]

But it's clear that American-style violence like this is becoming more frequent here. This is the second such event in recent years; the third if you count the mall bombing in Vantaa. I think the reasons are rather similar to the ones in the US too; the profiles of the killers certainly are.

So every time someone over here kills a person with a knife or an axe, can we refer to that as "Finnish-style" violence? ;)

[Prime Junta]

I'd add a couple more characteristics: the killing happened between some friends who were drinking heavily, got into an argument, and one of them killed another, or it happened when someone got home extremely drunk, got into an argument with his wife, and killed her. Those would be very typically Finnish-style homicides. You could also call them Russian-style.

The school, mall, or job shooting is typically American, though -- that's where it first emerged (it even spawned the phrase "going postal"), and it was a quite a long time before similar horrors first appeared elsewhere. The first American school shooting happened in 1966. The first shooting outside North America, if you exclude the DFLP terror attack in Ma'alot in 1974, was in 1989... in Finland.

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Notable_shootings ]

[Prime Junta]

Some new details emerging about this mess, which I think are worth repeating here. Namely, this could *almost* have been prevented.

The perp posted videos on YouTube of himself posing with the gun and shooting at a range. Someone saw these, got concerned about the similarities with the ones made by the Jokela shooter, as well as others by a number of American school shooters, and reported this to the police.

The police interviewed the shooter on the eve of the massacre, but found nothing solid enough to give a reason to suspend his license or confiscate the gun.

So far so good. But here's some more interesting stuff.

(1) The police officer doing the interview had not seen the videos. Why? Because the Interior Ministry blocks access to "inappropriate" websites from police department computers -- presumably because they're worried that the Boys in Blue would spend their days surfing for pr0n instead of solving crimes. These sites apparently include YouTube and the social networking sites where the perp liked to hang out. Real smart move there, Interior Ministry.

(2) If the cop *had* seen the videos, there was a quite a bit of material there that would have made it pretty obvious that the guy is not using the gun like a responsible gun owner would. Among other things, he was shooting across the range, not along it, he was posing with it in obviously threatening ways (e.g. pointing it at the camera), and he was not wearing hearing protectors. His gun was licensed for target shooting, and he was violating basic gun safety practices on the videos. That alone should have been enough to get the license revoked.

(3) He had started his military service but had terminated it prematurely, after less than two months, due to psychological reasons. That, alone, should be enough reason not to issue a gun license. Somebody dropped the ball here.

I have a feeling we're going to have to tighten our gun laws. There's a great deal of scope there; for example, under current rules, you have to explain how and where you intend to use the gun, but you don't actually have to prove it. We have a fairly good system in place for issuing licenses for hunting weapons -- to get and retain a permit for a big-game rifle, for example, you have to get gun safety and shooting training, pass a test, and regularly pass the "moose test" at a shooting range; it isn't horribly difficult but it isn't a pure formality either, as it includes stuff like moving targets at medium range. We clearly need something like that for handguns too.

[magerette]

I'd add a couple more characteristics: the killing happened between some friends who were drinking heavily, got into an argument, and one of them killed another, or it happened when someone got home extremely drunk, got into an argument with his wife, and killed her. Those would be very typically Finnish-style homicides. You could also call them Russian-style.
We have a local version here in Oklahoma(and maybe elsewhere, though I never heard of it back in Illinois) where it's purely a local domestic homicide--man + alcohol/drugs/depression kills wife/estranged wife and children then shoots self. If the shooter gets cold feet when it comes to his own demise, he often barricades himself into his house and it turns into suicide by cop--happens with monotonous regularity.

Your point about protecting the cops from the nasty sites is a pretty serious deal. I'd say even if they'd rather restrict internet access for most of the force, they need to at least authorize an investigative unit to monitor that stuff. After reading some of what was posted on YouTube about 'every day of your life being a war' or whatever, I also think in your post with the pictures of the glowering knife bandits you may have hit on a valid point positing an influence. (Unless it was those video games...)

[Prime Junta]

We have a local version here in Oklahoma(and maybe elsewhere, though I never heard of it back in Illinois) where it's purely a local domestic homicide--man + alcohol/drugs/depression kills wife/estranged wife and children then shoots self. If the shooter gets cold feet when it comes to his own demise, he often barricades himself into his house and it turns into suicide by cop--happens with monotonous regularity.

Yeah, that could be legitimately called Finnish-style homicides, minus the "suicide by cop" -- that hardly ever happens here. I don't even remember when's the last time a Finnish cop fatally shot someone. Do you have lots of people of Finnish or East European origin there, by any chance?

Your point about protecting the cops from the nasty sites is a pretty serious deal. I'd say even if they'd rather restrict internet access for most of the force, they need to at least authorize an investigative unit to monitor that stuff.

From where I'm at, if we can't trust the cops to use the Internet like responsible adults, what can we trust them with? Restrictions like that are just plain childish IMO.

After reading some of what was posted on YouTube about 'every day of your life being a war' or whatever, I also think in your post with the pictures of the glowering knife bandits you may have hit on a valid point positing an influence. (Unless it was those video games...)

I did eventually look at some of the videos he posted. They were rather sad and pitiful, but also pretty damn plainly made by someone who shouldn't be trusted with a firearm.

Finnish men are prone to violence, always have been. I looked up some numbers, and our homicide and suicide rates are the highest in Western Europe. Lots of speculation as to the why and wherefore of it, still precious few answers.

[magerette]

Yeah, that could be legitimately called Finnish-style homicides, minus the "suicide by cop" -- that hardly ever happens here. I don't even remember when's the last time a Finnish cop fatally shot someone. Do you have lots of people of Finnish or East European origin there, by any chance?
There are some communities in Oklahoma (Prague) for instance that have some eastern european ancestry, and there certainly are some Russian/Slavic derived names around but I'd say the dominant strains of ethnicity are German and Appalachian style Scotch-Irish with some other WASP elements. Not many far Northern Europeans hereabouts.

I did eventually look at some of the videos he posted. They were rather sad and pitiful, but also pretty damn plainly made by someone who shouldn't be trusted with a firearm.

Most of these individuals *are* sad and pitiful, in particular in dealing with the social aspects of life. I think the guns give them an illusion of control and power, and of course, self-importance. Holding the power of life and death, however artificially through technology, may seem to be an answer to a world they can't otherwise influence.

Finnish men are prone to violence, always have been. I looked up some numbers, and our homicide and suicide rates are the highest in Western Europe. Lots of speculation as to the why and wherefore of it, still precious few answers.

America's similar stats are also low-hanging fruit for every psychologist with a theory, but I often feel it has to do with a frontier mentality which over-emphasizes self-sufficiency, vigilante justice and the importance of personal readiness to meet threats with violence--once appropriate and even arguably indispensable traits but now a recipe for social dysfunction. Don't know how that translates to your country.

[Prime Junta]

America's similar stats are also low-hanging fruit for every psychologist with a theory, but I often feel it has to do with a frontier mentality which over-emphasizes self-sufficiency, vigilante justice and the importance of personal readiness to meet threats with violence--once appropriate and even arguably indispensable traits but now a recipe for social dysfunction. Don't know how that translates to your country.

Perhaps. It may also have something to do with the enormous social pressure for "positive thinking" -- every day is expected to be a "great" day, and if it isn't, there are precious few outlets for it.

I think the cultural factors driving violence in Finland are different, though. Us Northern Europeans aren't very big on emotional expression. On top of that, Finns tend to have a chronic sense of inferiority and powerlessness, whether it's warranted or not. Someone noted that if you see a person smiling on the street in Finland, he's bound to be either drunk, insane, or a foreigner. So it's not so much a matter of negative emotions being taboo; it's a matter of lacking vocabulary for emotional expression itself.

Another picture quote from Joakim Pirinen, one of my favorite comics artists -- he's a Swede of Finnish origin, but this applies really well on this side of the Gulf of Bothnia too.

http://www.prime-junta.net/dropbox/pirinen.jpg
"My wife nags that I should show my feelings. But I have no goddamn feelings."

[magerette]

Somehow I think that sentiment might be shared by men of most countries. :)

This all ties in with something we frequently are blind to--the incredible influence alcohol has played in shaping cultural responses. Having grownup with grandparents who were raised before the turn of the last century(that would be late 1800's) I think routine alcohol abuse and chronic, socially accepted alcoholism was probably the single most important factor in many social dynamics . Even in my younger days drunkenness was just plain an acknowledged response to everything from the best news to the worst. The only stigma it would draw would be if the person completely lost it and could no longer hold down a job. We often forget this in factoring in our values and responses I think.